I'd like to see a scenario where the Mative Americans are immune to smallpox, or a lot more resistant. Say a strain got carried by Leif Erikson's expedition and had time to spread around and leave everyone adapted centuries later
What would happen if the news got out that he found a new continent, instead of overlooked by everyone? Europe and America aware of eachothers existence 400 years earlier. Viking culture might have gotten a revival as they were the best ship builders at the time. But even with Viking long ships I don't think the European invasion and colonization would have been as large and quick. Pandemics would still be a thing though.
@@izuela7677 And both continents have this mythical version of another world out there. The way that history would shake out would inform humanity of how they looked at first contact with alien life. So would first contact be violent, or peaceful. Maybe it is violent and full of conquest and war, but then again if any of the two was inspired to work together towards shipbuilding -- they knew it could be done by the vikings -- would have both a head start and a tradition that pushed towards peace.
The industrial revolution would happen likely in the United States or the settler colonies that would exist in Chile and Argentina/southern Brazil because after the first wave of malthusian crisis the settlers would be forced to innovate to capitalize on the new land. If there were some thing like a new France in the La Plata river basin. That could’ve been initially settled by protestants or a new Netherlands and Chile or massive alterations to it the functioning of Latin America. There would be an active incentive to innovate and weak, central government power to stop it.
As a Native person, I think it's an interesting thought experiment. It makes the value of Native contributions to science and civilization a lot more stark.
Never be afraid of controversial subjects, sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. The fact is that if 90% of Natives hadnt died due to disease, Europeans wouldnt have been able to just take everyone over so easily.
@Graymeyne that's because the America's lacked domesticatable animals. Humans living in close proximity to other animals are where our pandemic diseases and plauges originate from. By proximity im talking living and sleeping in the same room together, especially in winter. Measles, mumps, Small Pox and cholera just to name a few are regular diseases in animals such as cattle and pigs. It gives them the equivalent to our common cold. All it takes is one random mutation of the virus that allowed it to live in humans, but it thinks it is still in the cow. It does what it does to give the cow cold symptoms, but instead it kills us within 48 hours. The America's without domesticatable animals can't develop plauges.
Vikings: "wait, nobody lives down there?" Spain: "wait, there's no one to exploit?" England: "wait, there's no one in our way?" Ireland: "wait, there's no potatoes?"
@zaidhussain3293 None of the New World crops would exist in this scenario since they were selectively bred by Native Americans for thousands of years. No Corn, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Chilis, or Cacao would likely exist
Okay but could you imagine how extremely scary it would be to go to a new land and no one is there, being an explorer and seeing how this fertile big land just doesn't have people would genuinely terrified them
@@screamingseal4805 ok ok alternative there where people, but they aren't there anymore like the houses are there, the temples everything But no one is there
Given no human life existed in the Americas, I would expect there would be some really interesting wildlife. Mammoths, Giant Ground sloths, etc never going extinct
This was actually really interesting. A lot of people will disparage Native American peoples by saying that they didn’t contribute to the development of the US, but this really puts into perspective how much they contributed to the world. Almost like a continents-scale version of “It’s A Wonderful Life”
Also reminds me of that episode of Voyager where the Krenim Empire wiped a planet from all existence then get ravaged by a plague because their enemies had an antibody crucial to their survival.
I think this video is important because it highlights the fact that indigenous people tamed this land and developed immensely important crops we now take for granted.
That aspect of crops that were domesticated by the native Americans always gets me thinking. What other plants are out there that we could have turned into a staple of our lives?
I think rice fits that bill pretty well, at least for the regions it was cultivated in. It's filled with nutrients and can easily (under the right conditions) form a crop that can support an enormous amount of people.
Missed opportunity for Vinland given how it's abandonment was due to hostile natives. I remember reading a timeline years ago featuring vikings with North American Macrofauna as semi-domesticated pets. Followed by Spain having to deal with actual vikings attacking their shipping lanes with both groups having a sort of overlapping frontier.
The exact reasons for the abandonment of Vinland aren't conclusively known. What is known through genetic evidence, is native tribes in that area had children with people of European descent right around the time Vinland was abandoned. Could have been hostility and the settlers ended up captured and enslaved, true. Could have just as easily been a failed harvest season in the settlement and lack of support from the homeland leaving the settlers no choice but to join a native tribe to avoid death by starvation during winter.
@@martenkahr3365we do have some stories from Vinland. And yes, they fought the natives. There is no question about that. Not sure how things changed but we do know some amount of those who survived ended up having kids with natives and that tiny bit of dna stayed an incresingly small part of the gene pool of the natives in the area
would also be a lot more interesting to have a native population that was only a couple hundred years old. The majority of population centers would probably still be costal, but there wouldnt be no people there at all
In less than 20 years we've gone from believing that humans made it to the Americas in the last 15,000 years to now possibly over 100,000 years ago. That's an insane jump in understanding
Actually, due to recent historical knowledge, caveman rode out on dinosaurs from the first human caves somewhere in eastern nebraska 65 million years ago
@andred1235 there are so many sites that all point to human settlement before the current 15,000 or even 23,000 for the White Sands footprints, I wonder why we haven't found any structures from those times.
@@domesticonion8026 because the first time a structure was made that could stand the test of time for all that time was only first made only about 12,000 years ago.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to have an alternate timeline where the proto-Asians just look at the big ass glacier and say “yea let’s go back, there’s planets of good lands back in the steppe”.
I feel like we're completely overlooking the Vikings. With no natives, they can penetrate Vinland (and even Greenland as there wouldn't be any people there either) in peace. They started Iceland from scratch and it would be similar here, assuming they can maintain contact. By Columbus, the Norse would be firmly established in the northeast, at least.
What made Vinland fail wasn't just the Natives. It was the fact that the European warm period came to an end around the 1300's. Not only did Vinland get colder and much harder to live in, but Greenland suffered as well, to the point that Vinland likely got cut off from Iceland and Norway. Likely leading them to starve and with no extra travelers ever coming to repopulate the area or at least bring food.
@@bg1052 Maybe so, but considering Vinland's gentler climate it would've been a more attractive location for settlers. This gives the vikings there 300 years of peaceful settlement and way more resources than Greenland. Making a lasting colony more viable in Vinland than in Greenland.
I’d like to see your take on what would have happened if the Viking colonies had persisted in North America long enough to pass on metallurgy, domesticated animals, and diseases before giving up or being assimilated.
Part 1: The Vikings set up pagan colonies. Part 2: The vikings convert to Christianity and have to reinvade their colonies to set up the catholic church. part 3: The Scandinavians convert to Protestanism and have to reinvade their colonies to purge the heretical Catholics (this is what happened to Iceland).
Timestamps 0:00 Knight Plush 0:25 Intro 3:32 So How Does This Even Happen? 7:19 Spain Arrives 10:29 Setting up a Footprint 17:05 The Crops that Changed Everything 19:06 What Was the Point of This Video? 19:48 Outro
I'm really glad you brought up the point about crops, it's easy to take for granted now, but food supplies are just so vital for maintaining civilization.
I'd love to see your take on something that is kinda the opposite. What if the land bridge never went away and Asia was constantly connected to the Americas to this day?
@greygryphon6881 Exactly. Also though, what if the Native Americans had the same domesticated animals. Would they have been able to create more cities and civilization?
@@greygryphon6881 yeah, I think the key part being not "what if there were 'temporary' connections" but rather a solid, contiguous, navigable connection and the Bering Strait just flat out didn't exist. That would be an interesting book-end to this video.
Part 2: What about the Vikings? They meet no Skrälinger resistance, and were assumedly better prepared for winter. Timeline 1: They return home and spread the news; Northern Europe gets a colonisation headstart. Timeline 2: Vinland gets cut off and they develop independently. Also: What about the Megafauna? I _know_ that you covered Megafauna in another video already, so I assumed it would be a factor here. Also: No gardening civilization in Brazil! The jungles would be truly untamed, there'd be no terra preta.
The Vikings would probably not last very long in Vinland. Part of the reason they failed was because there wasn't any immediate returns on their investment. Gold, silver, jewels, and slaves were much more profitable than fur, lumber, and wine-grapes.
@@howardlanus8467 The Norsemen didn't settle in Greenland and Vinland to make a quick buck. They set up shop in Greenland because after centuries of good times in Iceland, there had been some droughts and misery. They were subsistence cattle farmers and _still_ managed to return meager tributes to the king in Norway occasionally. Between the 980s and 1450s they were present in Greenland... without the Skrälingers, that means there is enough time and room to find some promising places all over the NA coast. And since Greenland really struggled with climatic changes since the 1400s, at some point Vinland loses contact with Iceland/Norway. The Norse settlements would have been on their own all the time, anyway. If all Greenlanders eventually evacuated for Vinland around 1400, that means ~6000 people in NA.
@@sirsir8163 he made a mention of them in What if South and North America never connected, basically geeking out over the idea of Conquistadors fighting giant terror birds.
@@sirsir8163 quite some time ago, look them all through for likely candidates. _For sure, there was megafauna mentioned_ in the Green Antarctica video. But I think the topic came up in the background half of another America-video too. Not in the scenario though, IIRC. Could have been one about "what if they had had more domestic animals"?
No no, dont sell yourself short, you have a point. In fact this video *emphasizes* just how important the culture, history, and advances Indigenous Americans are to the history of the world and our modern civilization. - Nice Work
Was going to bring it up but cut it out of the vid. Vinland would have failed anyway because it was so far away. No major Norse colonization, natives or not. This is one of those ideas where its so different this would be like a five part series of pure fiction. So apologies if I just cover the most basic stuff. Also check out Possible History. He's another alternate history channel I really like. www.youtube.com/@possiblehistory/videos
I feel like an important angle to consider with the highly Catholic Spanish finding the Caribbean first is the religious angle. I feel like it would be an easy connection to make that this uninhabited, lush land they happened across is Eden itself. The presence of humanity in our timeline removed the possibility of making that connection (Adam and Eve being cast out being the primary reason). I absolutely feel like that would impact how the region is explored, colonized, etc.
The Spanish conquistadors who explored the Americas saw their endeavor as an extension of the Reconquista. So, there would be less difficulty in establishing colonies there (Spanish called them "viceroyalties"). And of course, no native deaths.
I really enjoyed this video. I think it was a great Alternative History. It also showed how corn, potatoes, and tomatoes affected the advancement of Europe; not to mention the rest of the World.
I got overly excited when you brought up the crops because I have thought of this before. In uninhabited Americas, the uncultivated varieties of these plants may not even exist as the whole ecosystem would be dramatically different without human influence.
The first human crossings into the Americas was an unbelievably impressive undertaking and feat of human resiliance and determination considering the technology of the time.
Imagine migrating to a new continent uninhabited by anything you’ve seen, and being the first humans in a complex ecosystem and survive for millennia. It’s an impressive feat to naturally fit yourself into an ecosystem
migration took place not by a few generations, but many. those in northern russia were like eskimos. cold culture. moving east wasnt a huge thing. still cold. then some start moving south. rhey hit sea or more land. and expansion is just a human thing.
Not entirely on topic, but this reminds me that there's evidence that the Native Americans and Polynesians may have had regular contact and trade with each other. They share DNA and common words for certain goods, and they found a sweet potato (native to the Americas) in Polynesia that was dated to be pre-colonial
@@DMIwriter Ikr? Why is this debated when we have the Polynesians to show that people back then moved fcking a lot! Look, the Polynesians sailed to New Zealand to the furthest Easter Island. Sure it was more like island hopping but the distance were 6,930 km across the Pacific Ocean. Prehistoric humans sailing from Siberia to North America shouldn't be that of a problem considering the short distance than compared to the long sea voyages the Polynesians ventured. The weird part about North America prehistoric humans that were found to be dated back before the glacial meltdown that paved the way of a Siberian crossing to Alaska is the evident fossils discovered in the Easter Seaborne instead the common perception in the Western side of the continent. This blows out of everybody expectations and yet this discovery wasn't covered in the media and researched papers at all. Conspiracy? Idk.... this just opens up another theory that instead of prehistoric humans coming from Siberia that would crossed to N.America before the glacial melting. It would be early humans traveling from Europe all the way to N.America Eastern coast via boats. Yeah I know this theory is a load of BS but human fossils found in the eastern side that pre-date the melting of glacier that would create a narrow corridor proved otherwise. So far all the experts are either in their usual debates or keeping a tight lipped for some reason.
@@fullmetaltheorist there's theories that the discovery was accidental through being blown off course whilst trading in Arabia and East Africa. That or the sailors went through an unconventional route. It's most likely that the island was settled after it was discovered this way. Some theories say they were shipwrecked and just remained there, which I think is unlikely because even if they were shipwrecked, they knew how to make boats and go home.
There's some evidence the Polynesians made contact with the Inca a couple times, like the way the Vikings made it to North America: not impossible, but difficult to maintain contact.
@@ycantiusegeorgiantextforhandle You know how to cook, do you know how to build a stove? You can drive, can you build a car? Ship making may be simpler, but not by enough that a shipwrecked crew from one boat can necessarily reliably do it. Particularly if they're in a new land with different kinds of trees and plants. Gonna take a lot of trial and error to figure out what to make the hull or the sails from. The amount of specialization in ancient cultures is undersold sometimes i think.
Considering the colorful history presented by the various Native (North and South) American groups, alongside their interactions with European settlers, the removal of these natives from our timeline kinda gives of this dark tone, at least from an American like me). One thing I love about native Americans in human history is that we could understand and learn all sorts of different characters and their perspective on the land and life. The Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs were characterized by their empires, strong religious beliefs, and the impressive human feats of their time (ex. Temples, farms, cities, etc.). For the natives up north, they also held great religious and philosophical views (especially mythologies), alongside a significant respect to how they treated and personified their territories. With the nonexistance of these natives in the alternate reality presented in this video, all of that human character and achievement that these natives present just doesn't happen, no cities, no temples, not even camps, nothing. It kinda gives of this grim feeling, as spots that we know natives to inhabit are just a ton of black spots, unknown to the settlers struggling to get a footing onto this land (FYI, I bet the settlement where the pilgrims were at might have been another Jamestown without the native interaction). Id imagine this would make a good horror story, were a small group of explorers would try to explore the rest of the North American landmass, completely alone with only the wildlife and corn they interact with. Also RIP Alaska
@@supersleepygrumpybear The Vikings lived in Greenland for 200 years before the Inuit ever got there, not sure what this mystical "native" knowledge was supposed to do for them. If anything the Inuit were responsible for the death of the Viking colonies in Greenland
in my opinion, It is really was Brezhnev's biggest failure (At least in terms of foreign policy) that he never attempted to reproach with Beijing. Considering he was more orthodox then Khrushchev who had alienated Mao in the first place, it probably wouldn't have been impossible in the immediate years after 1964. But hindsight is 20/20 and it probably wouldn't "saved" the USSR or anything.
Even I, a student in evolutionary anthropology, have always questioned the Ice-Free Corridor as the first route the Paleo-Indians took from Alaska into Canada. Humans are smart, and really good at problem-solving, and canoes are pretty ancient technology.
yeah, it seems dicey to us today but I would imagine those people who made the voyage were tough as freaking nails and desperate for a new way of living. I try and not doubt the human spirit and the unbelievable ability of our species to ram its head against a problem until its solved. generational learning is really op
yeah i dont know if its a theory or anything but jst look at polynesians, they managed to explore most islands on the pacific 3000 years ago by themselfs
@@hurgcat yeah, and it doesn't take much for this to happen. Sure, curiosity is one thing, but they could get lost in a storm, or be a rival tribe banished to seemingly die sailing East. I feel like someone would have sailed there sooner or later, whether by accident or purpose.
Considering horses were an important animal for the Indo-Europeans, and pretty much everybody from Europe through Asia Minor, parts of Persia, and into India and even China, are descended from those people. It's not a bad question, per se, it's just that outside of early Egypt and maybe Mesopotamia you don't get much of anything recognizable.
in a fantasy story i'm writing i have gone the route of horses not existing, i just swapped in specialty bred goats how this happened is for the same reason there are telepathic flying fire breathing lizards that can grow to the size of small mountains and moderate levels of magic (only getting up to some 3rd - 4th dnd spell level stuff)
As an idea it emphasises that the exploitation of a prosperous people was why the invaders succeeded - the fact that, had those people not laid the foundations of civilization, the invaders would have had nothing to exploit. Anything that gets people to think about the exploitation of labour by the greedy and undeserving is worth the time.
@@kingdomofbird8174 And? My point was that Aboriginal Australians did not set anything up for colonisers, as they were hunter-gatherers, and did not invent agriculture or animal husbandry.
@@GrammarNaziAUSWe don't have any domesticated crops or animals from Australia either. From the Americas we have corn, potatoes, cassava, beans, tomatoes, sweet potatoes. Corn, potatoes, and sweet potatoes bolstered the populations of Europe and China especially. Without these crops he's right we probably would be a couple centuries behind in our technological advancement, it would have stalled the industrial revolution.
Hey man, you completely forgot the megafauna! What a shock to land on a continent full of mastodonts, giant sloths, glyptodonts, saber teeth tigers, you get the point. Maybe they'd have run extinct in a much faster way, but they'd surely have spiced things up for the explorers!
What would’ve happened with the polynesians? I recall that they traded with the Incas, so they could potentially have some decendents in this timeline on the mainland of South America. Also, what about the megafauna? Giant armadillos would be a terrifying sight to see for an unsuspecting European.
There's also a fairly big chunk of evidence that South America was colonized first by polynesians, but Cody seems to stand with the "colonization exclusively through Alaska" train of thought.
@@vicenteabalosdominguez5257 While there surely was some contacts between Native South Americans and Polynesians (around 1200 AD) in the same way as it happened with the Norse, I really doubt the "Native South Americans coming from Polynesia" theory, since Polynesians arrived to Rapa Nui and Hawaii between 500 and 800 AD, much later than the Bering Strait migration.
I think the most alien part of this thought experiment is really just what the Amazon rainforest would even look like without indigenous people because we really have no way of knowing truly to what extent people actually cultivated it which I think is super fascinating.
It is funny because if you read the journals the Spanish wrote they pretty much had to put a soldier on every corner to keep the tribes that the Aztecs were oppressing for sacrifices from ripping aztecs apart after the Spanish took over.
They weren't mere tribes, they were rival city-states. Reminder that the Aztec empire is a tributary empire, composed of a Triple Alliance of city-states and dozens of subjugate city-states. The indigenous that allied with the Spaniards weren't just fed up with Mexica oppression (Mexica is what the people of the Aztec empire are called), they saw the arrival of the Spanish as an opportunity; they're trying to exploit the disruption of the status quo to take power for themselves. Of course, we all know it never went the way they wanted.
yeah, this is often overlooked, mostly by revisionist, how many local native allies Spanish had (the siege of todays Mexico City could hapen only because tens of thousands of local allies) Those tribes hated Aztecs, and who wouldn't if you could be at any time hunted for human sacrifice.
This was an exciting take. I've been working on a story with similar concept and the lack of a pre-existing system and population to exploit is definitely making me re-think the timeline for colonization attempts. Also I love the "I'm erasing Alaska" bit lol
I think there may still be Inuit people as they are from post ice age migrations. Perhaps they gone further south than OTL as far as Queen Charlotte Islands in the west and Nova Scotia in the East
@@RocketHarry865 Ayup, no Inuit in this scenario. If Humans could make it to the Canadian Archipelago and Greenland, then we get the whole Americas populated almost instantly. Inuit didn't necessarily live in the icy north because it was fun and giggles, they lived there because other people lived south of them.
@@yoursleepparalysisdemon1828 He was an important figure in China during the early twentieth century. I don't know enough of the specifics, so have this link instead. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen
I just got back from visiting Mayan ruins in Mexico and this kind of blew my mind. I also wonder if the vikings would have abandoned Vinland. Sure, it was far away, but with no Skraelings to deal with, they might have been more motivated to stay.
@@pynk7ivoryI don't know, they originally came to Vinland to look for lumber, and had they not encountered hostile natives they might well have sailed down the coastline or just settled Newfoundland. It's a lot more pleasant than Greenland, so without the threat of war, many people might have moved on from Greenland to stake claims in the Americas.
It is actually becoming more commonly believed amongst anthropologists that ancient peoples may have also arrived in the New World via the Pacific Islands. That sounds hard to believe at first, but if you look at a map of the islands you'll see that they form a chain leading just 2,180 miles from the coast of Peru. In fact, I'm 1947 a Norwegian ethnographer named Thor Heyerdahl, actually said from Peru to Raroia in the Tuamotus after just 101 days.
The Polynesians were quite impressive in their ability to find islands so them settling South America would be really possible without any real competition. If they are able to make it back with the directions then I'd see some king willing to settle people there
I was looking for this comment i was wondering if anyone else also considered the idea that the new world might have been populated by Polynesian peoples. (albeit way later than in our timeline) so when the Spanish show up, the east coast would be empty but eventually when they get to the west coast there are farming taro and fishing and stuff.
I think that's unlikely without at least Polynesian-level technology. And the people that populated Americas can't possibly be Polynesian since none of the numerous languages native in Americas are Austronesian. Compare it with Madagascar, while still being far-flung, the language is Austronesian instead of the expected Bantu.
@@xwtek3505 Madagascar didn't have competition with another arriving group. It's quite possible that Polynesians similar to the hypothetical Spanish, arrived & colonized the south-western coast but then encountered the Berring-Straight peoples and were absorbed/altered by them. I mean the Inuit languages don't have much similarity with asian language families despite those peoples arriving in N America much later than these hypothetical Polynesians. I highly suspect it is a case of "yes, and" as it is most reasonable that population group that had the means to arrive while the continents was largely uninhabited did so, but that once the continents were continuously inhabited those populations diverged and changed through their interactions with each other far more than the populations they originated from. As the Amerindian languages are extremely diverse and do not support a single-common-origin language.
I know others have mentioned it, but looking at the Pleistocene extinctions you can actually track them in near perfect sync with human migration patterns. Basically, the further away from Africa where every large animal evolved to deal with human predation, the more exctinctions of large animals occurred. Elephants and rhinos live in India & SE Asia still, and lions and hippos lived in Europe until late into human civilization (late as in Early Roman Republic I think) So with no humans reaching the Americas, even with a changing climate the conditions were and kinda are still similar to warm interstadials that Pleistocene fauna enjoyed, so there's a good chance the Americas would be a wild safari similar to Africa. Now the exploitation of *that* resource I'd love to see in a video!
Constructive commentary on some of the Mesoamerican stuff that comes up here: 9:19: The Map of the Aztec empire here is missing Sonouscuo/Xoconochco, which was a province in Chiapas. While maps of the empire do vary in HOW they depict territory in that area, (same for if Teotitlan is Aztec controlled as shown here) not showing any at all is erroneous. Also, the map solely showing Aztec territory is pretty misleading: Those enclaves had indepedent kingdoms and city-states, West Mexico and the Yucatan Peninsula had them as well like the Purepecha Empire, various Maya kingdoms, etc. On that same token, colonization of Mexico was only really starting with the fall of the Aztec, since all of these other states (and the states inside the empire which didn't cede to Spanish authority) wouldn't be conquered for centuries (though most were within a few decades). 9:33: Jaguar knights weren't half naked with just pieces of Jaguar pelts: They wore full body warsuits called Tlahuiztli (and beneath it, gambeson armor vest/tunics known as Ichcahuipilli), made from a thick cotton base and a mosaic of tens of thousands of iridescent, glittering feathers arranged to make the jaguar spots (or other designs). While no Tlahuiztli survive, quite a few iridescent feather mosaic "paintings" with catholic imagery made by Mesoamerican artists do, and they're some of the most stunning pieces of art ever produced. Tlahuiztli warsuits (and tunic forms of it, known as Ehuatl) were incredibly high effort pieces of equipment, the sterotype of Jaguar knights being sort of conan the barbian warriors could not be more wrong. (Though there are some accounts asserting that commoners who entered the Jaguar order as opposed to nobles had to make do with warsuits made from actual Jaguar pelts: these would still be full body garments, though) 9:16, 10:14, 10:24, 10:27: I realize you're trying to use royalty free and public domain images here, but just so people are aware, these are pretty poor visualizations of Mesoamerican cities and clothing. Much like how Jaguar knights had absurdly ornate warsuits and actual armor rather then just naked and with pelts, people had fine clothing and jewerly: There's a lot of fashion variation both between different civilizations and inside each one based on social context, but for the Aztec/Nahuas, rather then being mostly naked with just feather headdresses and the like, generally had men wore cloaks/mantles (Tilmatli), sort of like Greco-roman togas, while women wore baggy blouses and robes (huipil). For nobles, these would be richly colored and accented with floral, avian, geometric and mythological motifs and patterns, and wore with gold, jade, turquoise etc braclets and arm/leg bands, earrings and piercings; and fine feather tassels and other ornaments. If anything, actual Aztec fashion for women, especially with their hair buns/braids, looks closer to Japanese Geisha then anything most people think of when they hear "Aztec". Cities, too, had buildings which were covered in smooth stucco and then painted in massive frescos and murals, and which had sculptural facades and ornaments, carved reliefs, etc. Cities had a significant amount of infrastructure with roads, aqueducts, and massive suburban sprawls around the city centers. Stuff only looks grey and worn and sparsely sticking out of jungles today because of erosion and sites not being fully excavated. The art of Tenochtitlan at 10:10 and 9:22 are better. Also, only the coasts, and lowlands around the Isthmus of Tehuantepec and in the Yucatan Penisula were really jungle: Much of Central Mexico where the Aztec were at was temperate to semi arid hills, valleys, and plateaus. I've offered this in the past, but if you cover Mesoamerica more, i'd be down to send resources, information, accurate art and images I have permission to use, etc. Trey has my info.
Wow. I went to high school in the early 70s so you can imagine the media presentations we were given. (All respect to fantastic books). Not my first rodeo with this channel but strikes me how much I'm learning or re-learning. While being thoroughly entertained. With a narrator good enough that I'd probably tune in to hear him recite his grocery list. Not as any boast but as now a semi-retired author/historian (vs just recalling high school), viewing this channel should rate college credits if not an entire course. Good job, AHH. ... (goes for Pointless Hub as well but going through THAT should earn a PhD. Just unsure in WHAT.)
~15:04 Very few of the native populations the French and English interacted with were hunter gatherers - a handful were, and none of them were as urbanized as some of the populations the Spanish encountered, but the significant majority of groups east of the Mississippi were agriculturalists.
16:53 I'd actually argue differently here! W/o natives, we wouldn’t see the same level of Megafaunal(Giant sloths, mammoths, remnant Terrorbirds, and Sabre-toothed cats)extinctions that we saw. The alternate european colonists would have been met with an american bestiary that they couldn’t ever have possibly imagined.
What if Russia Won the Polish vs Soviet War? What if Russia Won the Estonian Independence War? What if Russia Won the Winter War? What if Inejirō Asanuma Was Never Assassinated?
@@lionheart6176 having to sue for peace against a country 50 times smaller than yours because they keep putting your soldiers in a blunt isn't much if a victory.
@@fullmetaltheorist ironically enough the fact that they lost so many soldiers in the winter war was beneficial to them since suddenly Stavka realised that maybe incompetent officers and outdated tactics arent a way to win a war. Also it was the Finnish who wanted peace since by the end of the war the Soviets were actually pushing them hard and got most of the lands they wanted
Good take, good humor. Couple of tips in case they help: Taino is actually Taïno, or in Spanish, Taíno, meaning that it's three syllables, "tah-ee-no". Think of the vowels in "naïve". And around 3:20 you said "descendants" when you meant "ancestors"-this is fairly common, but it's confusing for someone like me who's into family history and word history. "Ancestor" is related to the Latin ante- prefix, meaning "before"; "descendant" depends on the conventional metaphor of a family tree representing the past as higher up and the present at the bottom, so that descendants actually _descend_ from those who came before, like apples falling not far from the tree.
I'm so glad someone else pointed out how he misused descendants, it always bothers me when it happens and it happens so much more frequently than I expect. I'm not even super into family history, just science in general and especially animals, living and extinct
Not only that, the Earth itself may have been cooler overall with all of NA not being inhabited. The natives clear cut forests for their agriculture. It is surmised that with the native population collapse, more carbon dioxide was sequestered since forests overran those previous cleared out lands and may have helped continue the "Little Ice Age" that happened from 1300 to 1850. Now imagine two continents of old growth forest that hasn't been touched by human hands. It would clearly help cool down the Earth more than it did when Columbus went there.
Hey Alternatehistoryhub I developed this scenario a while back for a what if where Zealandia collided with sahul to create a continent called Sahullandia I wondering if you could talk about such a scenario in a future video. I even made a map of it if you needed a point of reference. Feel free to dm me if you would like.
Id love to see a video about what if the Himalayan mountains didn't exist, geography shapes politics, and having no barrier between the 2 most populated nations ever would possibly be world changing
for that to be the case south Asia would have to never bang into the rest of Asia and instead be a the largest island/smallest continent in the middle of otl Indian ocean.
You forgot avocados! I love how those only still exist because of people. They were originally spread by giant ground sloths, and would have gone extinct when those sloths did. It's why the seeds are so big.
@@ATBZ Oh hey, you're right! Don't know why I got it in my head that them being megafauna was what killed them, but apparently they went extinct when humans showed up. I mean, I guess it was that they were megafauna that got them killed by humans... "Giant meat, we kill!"
Not really a historically significant fruit though. Europe already had apples, pears, and grapes. Or if you wanted to get exotic, oranges. These were all easier to cultivate than avocados, and grapes could even be used to make wine. But even this is all ignoring the important fact that fruits are a luxury. Asking to consider the world would look like without a specific fruit is like asking to consider a world without the ball point pen. I mean sure, it would be slightly worse, but it certainly wouldn't change history.
It really was an interesting thought experiment. If we went even deeper and focused on how horses and camilids didnt cross over, literally every aspect of ancient humanity changes, The chariot, the mongles, sending messages over long distance, everything about humanity changes and leads to groups staying in just one are primarily. Basically my point is, look at his older video of no horses/camilids coming over to see the breath of this change.
Not to mention that both continents would still be covered in mega fauna. Not only would colonization be less profitable, it would also be insanely dangerous outside of urban areas. The new world would be seen as a land of monsters.
There's non zero odds it wouldn't even be called America. There's been some recent theorizing that the name might actually come from the "Amerrisque" mountain range in Nicaragua and Honduras. Basically the idea is these mountains are where *SOMEONE* told Columbus the gold they had came from, and so when people asked him where it came from, he said it was American Gold. Also apparently the attribution to Amerigo Vespucci was originally worded as a sort of "WELL WHERE ELSE COULD THE NAME HAVE COME FROM‽', implying that it was a guess made by folks who had already lost track of where the name had come from.
I wonder how this would have effected Leif Erikson and other Viking’s voyage to North America, considering his brother, Thorvald, actually came into contact and fought with Native Americans in modern-day Canada.
I don't think it changes much. Perhaps they have an easier time exploring further inland but they would still abandon the territory simply because of environmental and distance issues.
I think it would be awesome to see a video of what human history would be like without horses! Very different, but it would be cool to hear you think through it!
I totally forgot about the patatoes. Prussia and the Prussian army cold have never (not for a long time) became so powerful. I think they would have found ways to produce better crop, but it would have taken a long time. Enough to change the entire history from then onwards. (Japan and/or China comming out of their isolation periods before that and settling the west coast of NA)
I just want to recommend/introduce everyone to a channel called Ancient Americas. Specifically, I'd like to recommend their two videos - one about maize and another about potatoes. It really shows how much we owe the ancient American civilizations for the foods and ingredients that the world has today.
I love seeing channel recommendations come up organically in the comment section, rather than being spit out by the algorithm. Thank you, I'll check them out
I know you mentioned it in your iceberg video, but are you ever going to do a detailed video on LORAG? As an Australian it’s always been an interesting concept to me, though it’s a bit sad reading about all this delicious food that doesn’t exist.
@@admiraloscar3320 I imagine a scenario where, somehow, the prehistoric humans in the Old World keep dying off/aren't thriving there - the Old World is somehow too hostile for humans - but they thrive in the New World once they migrated there; the ones left in the Old World went extinct.
Interesting video. I'd also like to hear your opinion on what would happen if Spain never gave Louisiana back to France in 1800. I tried writing a scenario for it and found that it sure changes a lot in North American history!
5:54 Not just them, but canids as well. Dogs are of North American origin, and without a land bridge, they’d never be able to cross into Eurasia. Meaning no wolves, dholes, painted dogs, or any other old-world canid. In their place, there would be dog-like hyenas, which filled a similar role in the old-world ecosystem in the place of canids. Meanwhile, canids in the Americas would be much more diverse, including large, bone-crushing forms, with the largest being around the size of a lion. Imagine that, herds of horses and camelids being terrorized by giant, lion-sized dogs, with jaws powerful enough to crush through bone.
Speaking of the New World, i feel like an interesting idea would be a video on what if the pre-colombian empires and civilizations avoided colonization and survived into the modern era
@@celdur4635 Well yeah, but they were still subjugated and a catholic european society suplented the traditional native societies, my suggestion would be that the natives maintain their institutions and societies as the dominant political structures in the Americas (As in, theres no colonization of the Americas)
@@Post-Ioooo You have no idea how that process was done. The first churches in the new world, at least in Cusco were funded by Inca nobility, the ones that were allied with the Spanish against Atahualpa. BTW the same thing happened in Europe with the Celts, Germanics, Iberians, Greeks, etc. Did Jesus and what would become Catholicism "supplanted traditional native societies and institutions" ? of continental Europe? How different where native institutions to Spanish ones? do you know? because i do, and it wasn't that different, peasants, bureaucracy/traders and low/high nobility, highly structured and segmented, massive amount of intermarriage with Spanish people to secure alliances and access to world trade routes, which the natives didn't have access to. The Inca controlled and suppressed dozens of kingdoms, centralized states that had different religions, language, customs and ethnography than them, and welcomed their Spanish allies that helped them liberate from Inca tyranny, and brought a new religion that didn't requiere sacrifices and connected them to the rest of the world. The nobles rights were respected, compared to Inca rule it was a much better deal. Finally it was diseases (and time) that wiped out 1500's native culture, 300 years of Viceroyalty, intermixing, trade, people change.
@@celdur4635 "You have no idea how that process was done" he says to an indigenous-descendant brazilian, anyhow the idea that indigenous civilization and organization wasn't destroyed by europeans because certain political groups among them decided to side with the colonizers is ridiculous, even if there was popular support -against the incas/aztecs- this was mostly due to conflicts between the different native groups and not any support for the europeans who did proceed to change much of the social structures present in the continent as well as genocide the indigenous populations. And yes, "Jesus" (not real lmao) and christianity did supplant and destroy pagan european civilization, not only were there genocides such as the one against the baltic prussians, with christian domination came the destruction of the pagan and tribal social structures who were replaced by the christian order and narrative, this is something that extended towards religion, government structure, culture, hierarchy and so on. Though it is true that both Inca, Aztec and Mayan (and yes, only those three as the Caribs, Macro-Jês, Tupi-Guaranis, and etc. had very different social structures that the europeans unarguably destroyed) had similar government structures to the feudal ones found in most of settled eurasia and africa the spanish still usurped the native rulers and reorganized those institutions for the sake of serving the spanish crown, the stable and flourishing intra-american trade routes were destroyed and in place of the different states that existed in the americas the viceroyalties were put in place. As for your defense of spanish colonization i don't really care, the Incas were bad sure but the spanish did all those things you accuse the incas of doing as well as you know, genocided and colonized much of the population, the Incas were tyrannical because they were an empire, something the spanish also were and that doesn't justify the massive amount of destruction and death caused by europeans, you say that catholicism didn't require sacrifices yet you ignore the massive amount of bloodshed and slavery done in the name of this very same religion, in that very same continent. And lastly, no, the spanish, portuguese and angloids all directly participated in the destruction of pre-columbian culture, it wasn't just diseases, but active conquest, destruction of monuments and infraestructure, mass killings and slavery that brought an end to these civilizations.
My guess is that since there wouldn't be any people there would be no incentive to explore the land. No potatoes, no tomatoes, no corn. Because no guy existed to domesticate the wild version of those plants. No guys to tell the Europeans were the gold, silver and other resources are.
I once (more than 15 years ago) saw a documentary that claimed that inuit might have went from southern France to Newfoundland along the ice shore. They could have travelled by canoe (or something) during the day and slept on the ice at night. Seals and fish were already alive then, so there was plenty of food. That would imply that even when there is neither Kamchatka nor Alaska, people would still move to the Americas. Also you forgot somehow the Vikings who came to Northamerica. They even settled in Iceland (where nobody else lived). They could've settled in New England as well.
I think the bigger picture (no pun intended) would be the megafauna. They were hunted to extinction by the time that the Europeans arrived in the original timeline. In the new timeline, those explores and settlers would have had to deal with terror birds, dire wolves, mammoths, mastodons, saber tooth cats, etc. It would take a LONG time to try to get a toe-hold on the mainland.
One other thing to note - at least in North America - was that the natives pretty much cleared out the wilderness, leaving it fit for habitation. When the English showed up, one of the things that impressed them was how perfect the land seemed for their expansion and settlement (even with the natives in the way). With no native population, North America (on the east coast, at any rate) would have been primeval forest.
Here’s an idea that’s been in my head for a bit, and while I’ve got a rough idea I think you’d be better at exploring it further than I can. *What if earth orbited a gas giant?* Similar to your Great Lakes or habitable moon video, let’s pretend that this scenario doesn’t change earth’s history up to the point of humans emerging. Just have the earth put in orbit of a gas giant, with the giant orbiting 1AU from the sun In terms of humanity, there’s basically two scenarios here: 1.) how would a gas giant in the night sky influence religion instead of our normal moon? Not only would it likely be much bigger in the sky than our moon (and thus bigger than the sun in the sky too), but the earth would be tidally locked to it, meaning it would be in the same spot in the sky… permanently. How would that sight (as well as the other moons orbiting it) influence ancient cultures and concepts like geocentrism or heliocentrism? 2.) how would explorers react to discovering it? If we assume the Americas are on the side facing the gas giant and Eurasia is facing away from it, that means no European would know about the gas giant until traveling to the Americas. Would this influence anything upon their return?
Couple issues with that scenario: If the Earth was tidally locked and had virtually no rotation on its axis, then the chances of advanced life developing would be very slim. Additionally, the Earth (as a moon) would orbit around the gas giant and that gas giant's orbit would in turn allow different sides of the Earth to get sunlight, but depending on its orbital period, you would have periods of extreme darkness.
@@cylontoaster7660 i understand that the formation of life and plate tectonics would be vastly different if earth were a moon, hence my disclaimer at the start. As for sunlight exposure and planetary illumination, that could be a talking point too considering how it would alter the lives of nocturnal animals
Glad I scrolled this far down, because brother this is a scenario in my manuscript that I've been dwelling on how it should work for months now. So far I just got rid of the sun and made it all snowy (Gas giant core provides some heat and minute unnoticeable to the human eye light, so there is life) but know I see there's actually a chance of making it plains and forests and meadows n stuff. Thank you, I greatly appreciate this.
Excellent video as always, just a quick note: when talking about New Spain, that only refers to the Viceroyalty of New Spain, which encompassed most northern territories of the Spanish Crown in the Americas, and did not encompassed the territories in South America. Those southern Spanish territories were under the control of the Viceroyalty of Peru, and later under the Viceroyalty of New Granada and the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata as well. Actually, for most of the colonial period in Latin America. Though these Viceroyalties did not come to be all at the same time, they were all independent from each other and answered to the Peninsular authority back in Europe.
I was so confused when you said "why didnt spain colonise the south?" But then i realised you were talking about the southern part of usa not the actual south
Have you ever thought about doing one about what would’ve happened if the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth hadn’t been methodically dismantled by its neighbors (and crippled by its own rules)? I think your videos are excellent, and I’d love to see your take on this.
The domestication of tomatoes is a point I find contentious. For a period tomatoes were grown as an ornamental plant, it's possible people might 'accidently' end up turning the wild tomato into a new possibly different crop, having them turn out more like grapes. I mean, vanilla was discovered by chance, so why couldn't it also happen to tomatoes.
I think his main point with that segment was to highlight just how much effort the natives put into domesticating these crops. And without that effort maize would still just be a lame wild mountain grass that is not worth farming when you already have Wheat & Barley. Although it does make you wonder what other plants are currently barely edible that have the potential to be delicious if we put the time into making them delicious. And something he didn't get into is the possibility that some of these pro-crops may have not even existed in the alternative ecosystem of the new world that did not experience the same human interventions. (Human hunting and competition is believed to have pushed most american mega fauna to extinction, even if not singlehandedly, atleast as a contributing factor.)
I'd like to see a scenario where the Mative Americans are immune to smallpox, or a lot more resistant. Say a strain got carried by Leif Erikson's expedition and had time to spread around and leave everyone adapted centuries later
That is a cool one!
That would be absolutely wild!
This is the plot of the book "Civilizations" by Laurent Binet. A great read (altgough only in french to my knowledge)
What would happen if the news got out that he found a new continent, instead of overlooked by everyone? Europe and America aware of eachothers existence 400 years earlier. Viking culture might have gotten a revival as they were the best ship builders at the time. But even with Viking long ships I don't think the European invasion and colonization would have been as large and quick. Pandemics would still be a thing though.
@@izuela7677 And both continents have this mythical version of another world out there.
The way that history would shake out would inform humanity of how they looked at first contact with alien life.
So would first contact be violent, or peaceful. Maybe it is violent and full of conquest and war, but then again if any of the two was inspired to work together towards shipbuilding -- they knew it could be done by the vikings -- would have both a head start and a tradition that pushed towards peace.
If nobody ever lived in the Americas, then the continent would’ve been truly and respectfully discovered by Lief Ericksson
The viking explorers pulled back because of hardship, which would not have changed.
Sad how Leif Ericksson gets forgotten and that piece of shit Christopher Columbus gets all credit.
@@TheDanEdwards while true he's not wrong that they would have actually been the first people in the America's
The industrial revolution would happen likely in the United States or the settler colonies that would exist in Chile and Argentina/southern Brazil because after the first wave of malthusian crisis the settlers would be forced to innovate to capitalize on the new land. If there were some thing like a new France in the La Plata river basin. That could’ve been initially settled by protestants or a new Netherlands and Chile or massive alterations to it the functioning of Latin America. There would be an active incentive to innovate and weak, central government power to stop it.
@@Dock284evidence suggests the so called "native" Indians weren't the 1st here either.
As a Native person, I think it's an interesting thought experiment. It makes the value of Native contributions to science and civilization a lot more stark.
Never be afraid of controversial subjects, sunlight is the greatest disinfectant. The fact is that if 90% of Natives hadnt died due to disease, Europeans wouldnt have been able to just take everyone over so easily.
@@briannevs3422and probably developed new diseases by themselves.
Thousands of years worth of work
@Graymeyne that's because the America's lacked domesticatable animals. Humans living in close proximity to other animals are where our pandemic diseases and plauges originate from. By proximity im talking living and sleeping in the same room together, especially in winter. Measles, mumps, Small Pox and cholera just to name a few are regular diseases in animals such as cattle and pigs. It gives them the equivalent to our common cold. All it takes is one random mutation of the virus that allowed it to live in humans, but it thinks it is still in the cow. It does what it does to give the cow cold symptoms, but instead it kills us within 48 hours. The America's without domesticatable animals can't develop plauges.
@@Graymeynesyphilis 😎
Cody’s political angle isn’t colonial revisionism, but to imagine a world where we are unburdened by the scourge of Alaska
No it's colonial revisionism
Alaska is the most important place in human history, change my mind
@@iskwewpannekoek no it's Alaskan revisionism (or the lack of it)
"The only real solution is to remove Alaska. I'm removing Alaska!" 😂
@@rhine3anti-alaskan revisionism
Vikings: "wait, nobody lives down there?"
Spain: "wait, there's no one to exploit?"
England: "wait, there's no one in our way?"
Ireland: "wait, there's no potatoes?"
France: “wait, there’s no one to trade with?”
Spain: "Wait, there's no human sacrifices to end?"
Portugal: *shrugs* and goes back to trading with Africa and Asia
@zaidhussain3293 None of the New World crops would exist in this scenario since they were selectively bred by Native Americans for thousands of years. No Corn, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Chilis, or Cacao would likely exist
Canadians: "wait, there's nobody who owns dogs we can kill?"
Okay but could you imagine how extremely scary it would be to go to a new land and no one is there, being an explorer and seeing how this fertile big land just doesn't have people would genuinely terrified them
There would be so many folk tales on what happened to them, and the tales of what goes creak in the night would be crazy in a continent with no people
@@Tsuruchi_420no people= mega Fauna would still maybe still alive to hunt some poor conquistador
A huge continent but no humans in it, kinda anticlimactic for them
@@screamingseal4805 ok ok alternative there where people, but they aren't there anymore like the houses are there, the temples everything
But no one is there
@@screamingseal4805 thats somehow even scarier
Given no human life existed in the Americas, I would expect there would be some really interesting wildlife. Mammoths, Giant Ground sloths, etc never going extinct
Changing climate probably still would have brought about the extinction of most megafauna.
Ground sloths and giant tortoises probably would still be around, but the Mammoths may have been well along their way to extinction regardless.
Given no human life existed in the Americas, I would expect there would be nuclear waste preventing human settlements
@@sinoroman, Lmao wat?
if we wanna fudge the numbers a bit we could even argue terror birds could still be around
This was actually really interesting. A lot of people will disparage Native American peoples by saying that they didn’t contribute to the development of the US, but this really puts into perspective how much they contributed to the world. Almost like a continents-scale version of “It’s A Wonderful Life”
Watching a Neo-Nazi wish away Native Americans and then watch mass starvation of the white race would be a sight.
Also reminds me of that episode of Voyager where the Krenim Empire wiped a planet from all existence then get ravaged by a plague because their enemies had an antibody crucial to their survival.
@@richardarriaga6271 Which episode is this?
@@frankharzer6224 Pretty sure that is in Year of Hell Part 1 and 2.
They didn't
I think this video is important because it highlights the fact that indigenous people tamed this land and developed immensely important crops we now take for granted.
Glad some natives are still here
I feel like that should have been the whole video rather than a little thing at the end.
the biggest part
@@griggorirasputin6555than the Video would last 5 minutes
@@marcobelli6856 No? he would just need to go into more detail.
That aspect of crops that were domesticated by the native Americans always gets me thinking. What other plants are out there that we could have turned into a staple of our lives?
If there are, we can jumpstart their domestication with genetic modification.
I think rice fits that bill pretty well, at least for the regions it was cultivated in. It's filled with nutrients and can easily (under the right conditions) form a crop that can support an enormous amount of people.
Maybe Stinging Nettles?
Dandelions. Every part of the plant is edible, they grow prolifically, & the roots could be naturally selected to be larger & starchier.
dandelions and thistle, maybe
Missed opportunity for Vinland given how it's abandonment was due to hostile natives. I remember reading a timeline years ago featuring vikings with North American Macrofauna as semi-domesticated pets. Followed by Spain having to deal with actual vikings attacking their shipping lanes with both groups having a sort of overlapping frontier.
I know right that was my first thought
Ye I was also dispointed that he didnt bring up the vikings
The exact reasons for the abandonment of Vinland aren't conclusively known. What is known through genetic evidence, is native tribes in that area had children with people of European descent right around the time Vinland was abandoned. Could have been hostility and the settlers ended up captured and enslaved, true. Could have just as easily been a failed harvest season in the settlement and lack of support from the homeland leaving the settlers no choice but to join a native tribe to avoid death by starvation during winter.
@@martenkahr3365we do have some stories from Vinland. And yes, they fought the natives. There is no question about that. Not sure how things changed but we do know some amount of those who survived ended up having kids with natives and that tiny bit of dna stayed an incresingly small part of the gene pool of the natives in the area
would also be a lot more interesting to have a native population that was only a couple hundred years old. The majority of population centers would probably still be costal, but there wouldnt be no people there at all
The "Erase" function to make the scenario possible had me cackling. Well done, Cody.
I cackled at him deleting Alaska 😂
In less than 20 years we've gone from believing that humans made it to the Americas in the last 15,000 years to now possibly over 100,000 years ago. That's an insane jump in understanding
Actually, due to recent historical knowledge, caveman rode out on dinosaurs from the first human caves somewhere in eastern nebraska 65 million years ago
@@Blockhog THATS HOW THEY BUILT THE PRYAMIDS!!!!💡💡🌎🌎🌎💡💡💡🌋🌋🌚
There was a discovery in California in the 90s that gets minimal attention pushing possible human settlement in the Americas back 250,000 years.
@andred1235 there are so many sites that all point to human settlement before the current 15,000 or even 23,000 for the White Sands footprints, I wonder why we haven't found any structures from those times.
@@domesticonion8026 because the first time a structure was made that could stand the test of time for all that time was only first made only about 12,000 years ago.
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to have an alternate timeline where the proto-Asians just look at the big ass glacier and say “yea let’s go back, there’s planets of good lands back in the steppe”.
The steppes would've been somewhat similar to northern siberia in the ice age.
I feel like we're completely overlooking the Vikings. With no natives, they can penetrate Vinland (and even Greenland as there wouldn't be any people there either) in peace. They started Iceland from scratch and it would be similar here, assuming they can maintain contact. By Columbus, the Norse would be firmly established in the northeast, at least.
And the Polynesians in the South West
What made Vinland fail wasn't just the Natives. It was the fact that the European warm period came to an end around the 1300's. Not only did Vinland get colder and much harder to live in, but Greenland suffered as well, to the point that Vinland likely got cut off from Iceland and Norway. Likely leading them to starve and with no extra travelers ever coming to repopulate the area or at least bring food.
@@bg1052 Maybe so, but considering Vinland's gentler climate it would've been a more attractive location for settlers. This gives the vikings there 300 years of peaceful settlement and way more resources than Greenland. Making a lasting colony more viable in Vinland than in Greenland.
@@MegaMegatron15Mister, Labrador’s climate is fucking brutal.
The Vikings did reach Greenland but they all died or migrated back to Europe by the time the Danes returned centuries later.
I’d like to see your take on what would have happened if the Viking colonies had persisted in North America long enough to pass on metallurgy, domesticated animals, and diseases before giving up or being assimilated.
He did a video a few years back about it.
He said he was gonna continue that scenario in his greenland video. I'm still waiting, Cody.
Part 1: The Vikings set up pagan colonies.
Part 2: The vikings convert to Christianity and have to reinvade their colonies to set up the catholic church.
part 3: The Scandinavians convert to Protestanism and have to reinvade their colonies to purge the heretical Catholics (this is what happened to Iceland).
I'd like to point out that the Native Americans were very much aware of metallurgy long before the Europeans came.
@@MetalKing1417Aware? I'm sorry, can you expand on that?
Love these videos that basically just say "What would happen? Not this. Apart from that, dunno"
Timestamps
0:00 Knight Plush
0:25 Intro
3:32 So How Does This Even Happen?
7:19 Spain Arrives
10:29 Setting up a Footprint
17:05 The Crops that Changed Everything
19:06 What Was the Point of This Video?
19:48 Outro
I'm really glad you brought up the point about crops, it's easy to take for granted now, but food supplies are just so vital for maintaining civilization.
I'd love to see your take on something that is kinda the opposite. What if the land bridge never went away and Asia was constantly connected to the Americas to this day?
it sort of was. Siberian tribes did cross over into Alaska periodically. Just never in large numbers
All of Turtle Island will bow before the Cree-Mongol Empire!
Buuutt, what if there was more contact because of that, possibly bringing diseases earlier, so the natives had immunity before the Europeans arrived??
@greygryphon6881 Exactly. Also though, what if the Native Americans had the same domesticated animals. Would they have been able to create more cities and civilization?
@@greygryphon6881 yeah, I think the key part being not "what if there were 'temporary' connections" but rather a solid, contiguous, navigable connection and the Bering Strait just flat out didn't exist. That would be an interesting book-end to this video.
Part 2:
What about the Vikings? They meet no Skrälinger resistance, and were assumedly better prepared for winter. Timeline 1: They return home and spread the news; Northern Europe gets a colonisation headstart. Timeline 2: Vinland gets cut off and they develop independently.
Also: What about the Megafauna? I _know_ that you covered Megafauna in another video already, so I assumed it would be a factor here.
Also: No gardening civilization in Brazil! The jungles would be truly untamed, there'd be no terra preta.
The Vikings would probably not last very long in Vinland. Part of the reason they failed was because there wasn't any immediate returns on their investment. Gold, silver, jewels, and slaves were much more profitable than fur, lumber, and wine-grapes.
@@howardlanus8467 The Norsemen didn't settle in Greenland and Vinland to make a quick buck. They set up shop in Greenland because after centuries of good times in Iceland, there had been some droughts and misery.
They were subsistence cattle farmers and _still_ managed to return meager tributes to the king in Norway occasionally. Between the 980s and 1450s they were present in Greenland... without the Skrälingers, that means there is enough time and room to find some promising places all over the NA coast.
And since Greenland really struggled with climatic changes since the 1400s, at some point Vinland loses contact with Iceland/Norway. The Norse settlements would have been on their own all the time, anyway.
If all Greenlanders eventually evacuated for Vinland around 1400, that means ~6000 people in NA.
What Video did he cover the megafauna in
@@sirsir8163 he made a mention of them in What if South and North America never connected, basically geeking out over the idea of Conquistadors fighting giant terror birds.
@@sirsir8163 quite some time ago, look them all through for likely candidates.
_For sure, there was megafauna mentioned_ in the Green Antarctica video.
But I think the topic came up in the background half of another America-video too. Not in the scenario though, IIRC. Could have been one about "what if they had had more domestic animals"?
No no, dont sell yourself short, you have a point. In fact this video *emphasizes* just how important the culture, history, and advances Indigenous Americans are to the history of the world and our modern civilization. - Nice Work
Was going to bring it up but cut it out of the vid. Vinland would have failed anyway because it was so far away. No major Norse colonization, natives or not.
This is one of those ideas where its so different this would be like a five part series of pure fiction. So apologies if I just cover the most basic stuff.
Also check out Possible History. He's another alternate history channel I really like. www.youtube.com/@possiblehistory/videos
neat
Don't worry man. Your stuff is awesome 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
AlternateHistoryOversimplified
What if Indians died before european arrival
@@hand_and_justin_entertainment alternosimplified
I feel like an important angle to consider with the highly Catholic Spanish finding the Caribbean first is the religious angle. I feel like it would be an easy connection to make that this uninhabited, lush land they happened across is Eden itself. The presence of humanity in our timeline removed the possibility of making that connection (Adam and Eve being cast out being the primary reason). I absolutely feel like that would impact how the region is explored, colonized, etc.
Great point
The Spanish conquistadors who explored the Americas saw their endeavor as an extension of the Reconquista. So, there would be less difficulty in establishing colonies there (Spanish called them "viceroyalties"). And of course, no native deaths.
I really enjoyed this video. I think it was a great Alternative History. It also showed how corn, potatoes, and tomatoes affected the advancement of Europe; not to mention the rest of the World.
No tomato means no pizza, truly the biggest loss humanity could suffer.
you've never had white pizza?
I got overly excited when you brought up the crops because I have thought of this before. In uninhabited Americas, the uncultivated varieties of these plants may not even exist as the whole ecosystem would be dramatically different without human influence.
The first human crossings into the Americas was an unbelievably impressive undertaking and feat of human resiliance and determination considering the technology of the time.
Imagine migrating to a new continent uninhabited by anything you’ve seen, and being the first humans in a complex ecosystem and survive for millennia.
It’s an impressive feat to naturally fit yourself into an ecosystem
migration took place not by a few generations, but many. those in northern russia were like eskimos. cold culture.
moving east wasnt a huge thing. still cold. then some start moving south. rhey hit sea or more land. and expansion is just a human thing.
Not entirely on topic, but this reminds me that there's evidence that the Native Americans and Polynesians may have had regular contact and trade with each other. They share DNA and common words for certain goods, and they found a sweet potato (native to the Americas) in Polynesia that was dated to be pre-colonial
@@DMIwriterfascinating!!
@@DMIwriter Ikr?
Why is this debated when we have the Polynesians to show that people back then moved fcking a lot! Look, the Polynesians sailed to New Zealand to the furthest Easter Island. Sure it was more like island hopping but the distance were 6,930 km across the Pacific Ocean. Prehistoric humans sailing from Siberia to North America shouldn't be that of a problem considering the short distance than compared to the long sea voyages the Polynesians ventured. The weird part about North America prehistoric humans that were found to be dated back before the glacial meltdown that paved the way of a Siberian crossing to Alaska is the evident fossils discovered in the Easter Seaborne instead the common perception in the Western side of the continent. This blows out of everybody expectations and yet this discovery wasn't covered in the media and researched papers at all. Conspiracy? Idk.... this just opens up another theory that instead of prehistoric humans coming from Siberia that would crossed to N.America before the glacial melting. It would be early humans traveling from Europe all the way to N.America Eastern coast via boats. Yeah I know this theory is a load of BS but human fossils found in the eastern side that pre-date the melting of glacier that would create a narrow corridor proved otherwise. So far all the experts are either in their usual debates or keeping a tight lipped for some reason.
AlternateHistoryHub: _'This creates a distance that is too great for hunter gatherers to sail across'_
Ancient Polynesians: Challenge accepted. 😏
How tf did they even make it to Madagascar back then?
Ah yes, good point.
@@fullmetaltheorist there's theories that the discovery was accidental through being blown off course whilst trading in Arabia and East Africa. That or the sailors went through an unconventional route. It's most likely that the island was settled after it was discovered this way.
Some theories say they were shipwrecked and just remained there, which I think is unlikely because even if they were shipwrecked, they knew how to make boats and go home.
There's some evidence the Polynesians made contact with the Inca a couple times, like the way the Vikings made it to North America: not impossible, but difficult to maintain contact.
@@ycantiusegeorgiantextforhandle You know how to cook, do you know how to build a stove? You can drive, can you build a car? Ship making may be simpler, but not by enough that a shipwrecked crew from one boat can necessarily reliably do it. Particularly if they're in a new land with different kinds of trees and plants. Gonna take a lot of trial and error to figure out what to make the hull or the sails from. The amount of specialization in ancient cultures is undersold sometimes i think.
Considering the colorful history presented by the various Native (North and South) American groups, alongside their interactions with European settlers, the removal of these natives from our timeline kinda gives of this dark tone, at least from an American like me). One thing I love about native Americans in human history is that we could understand and learn all sorts of different characters and their perspective on the land and life. The Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs were characterized by their empires, strong religious beliefs, and the impressive human feats of their time (ex. Temples, farms, cities, etc.). For the natives up north, they also held great religious and philosophical views (especially mythologies), alongside a significant respect to how they treated and personified their territories. With the nonexistance of these natives in the alternate reality presented in this video, all of that human character and achievement that these natives present just doesn't happen, no cities, no temples, not even camps, nothing. It kinda gives of this grim feeling, as spots that we know natives to inhabit are just a ton of black spots, unknown to the settlers struggling to get a footing onto this land (FYI, I bet the settlement where the pilgrims were at might have been another Jamestown without the native interaction). Id imagine this would make a good horror story, were a small group of explorers would try to explore the rest of the North American landmass, completely alone with only the wildlife and corn they interact with.
Also RIP Alaska
I wonder how the early Viking settlements would have fared in this timeline.
They still starve to death.
Not well at all without Inuit knowledge
@@supersleepygrumpybear The Vikings lived in Greenland for 200 years before the Inuit ever got there, not sure what this mystical "native" knowledge was supposed to do for them. If anything the Inuit were responsible for the death of the Viking colonies in Greenland
@@dennisgray2704
Interesting...I'd swear they were slaughtered by the peaceful natives
My guess is there were other factors that could've still caused it to fail, but the complete failure to even mention them is kinda sad.
I'd kill for a vid on if the Sino-Soviet split never happened or was patched up in the 70s. It'd be awesome.
Sounds cool!
Sounds interesting
sounds nice
pls cody. this vid could save lives.
in my opinion, It is really was Brezhnev's biggest failure (At least in terms of foreign policy) that he never attempted to reproach with Beijing. Considering he was more orthodox then Khrushchev who had alienated Mao in the first place, it probably wouldn't have been impossible in the immediate years after 1964. But hindsight is 20/20 and it probably wouldn't "saved" the USSR or anything.
Even I, a student in evolutionary anthropology, have always questioned the Ice-Free Corridor as the first route the Paleo-Indians took from Alaska into Canada. Humans are smart, and really good at problem-solving, and canoes are pretty ancient technology.
yeah, it seems dicey to us today but I would imagine those people who made the voyage were tough as freaking nails and desperate for a new way of living. I try and not doubt the human spirit and the unbelievable ability of our species to ram its head against a problem until its solved. generational learning is really op
yeah i dont know if its a theory or anything but jst look at polynesians, they managed to explore most islands on the pacific 3000 years ago by themselfs
@@hurgcat yeah, and it doesn't take much for this to happen. Sure, curiosity is one thing, but they could get lost in a storm, or be a rival tribe banished to seemingly die sailing East. I feel like someone would have sailed there sooner or later, whether by accident or purpose.
Tbh after you mentioned it, i would like to see a video about if horses never made it to eurasia. The differences would be so insane
Considering horses were an important animal for the Indo-Europeans, and pretty much everybody from Europe through Asia Minor, parts of Persia, and into India and even China, are descended from those people. It's not a bad question, per se, it's just that outside of early Egypt and maybe Mesopotamia you don't get much of anything recognizable.
I think he already did that one a couple of years ago
th-cam.com/video/vFF3nRKoLWg/w-d-xo.html
we might as well live in a different planet tbh
in a fantasy story i'm writing i have gone the route of horses not existing, i just swapped in specialty bred goats
how this happened is for the same reason there are telepathic flying fire breathing lizards that can grow to the size of small mountains and moderate levels of magic (only getting up to some 3rd - 4th dnd spell level stuff)
As an idea it emphasises that the exploitation of a prosperous people was why the invaders succeeded - the fact that, had those people not laid the foundations of civilization, the invaders would have had nothing to exploit.
Anything that gets people to think about the exploitation of labour by the greedy and undeserving is worth the time.
Underrated comment
Australia did just fine without the natives setting anything up, so I disagree.
@@GrammarNaziAUSLook at their population numbers, and more, look at their numbers before the end of White Australia policy
@@kingdomofbird8174 And? My point was that Aboriginal Australians did not set anything up for colonisers, as they were hunter-gatherers, and did not invent agriculture or animal husbandry.
@@GrammarNaziAUSWe don't have any domesticated crops or animals from Australia either. From the Americas we have corn, potatoes, cassava, beans, tomatoes, sweet potatoes. Corn, potatoes, and sweet potatoes bolstered the populations of Europe and China especially. Without these crops he's right we probably would be a couple centuries behind in our technological advancement, it would have stalled the industrial revolution.
Hey man, you completely forgot the megafauna! What a shock to land on a continent full of mastodonts, giant sloths, glyptodonts, saber teeth tigers, you get the point. Maybe they'd have run extinct in a much faster way, but they'd surely have spiced things up for the explorers!
"I'm removing Alaska" probably the greatest sentence ever said
What would’ve happened with the polynesians? I recall that they traded with the Incas, so they could potentially have some decendents in this timeline on the mainland of South America. Also, what about the megafauna? Giant armadillos would be a terrifying sight to see for an unsuspecting European.
There's also a fairly big chunk of evidence that South America was colonized first by polynesians, but Cody seems to stand with the "colonization exclusively through Alaska" train of thought.
@@vicenteabalosdominguez5257 While there surely was some contacts between Native South Americans and Polynesians (around 1200 AD) in the same way as it happened with the Norse, I really doubt the "Native South Americans coming from Polynesia" theory, since Polynesians arrived to Rapa Nui and Hawaii between 500 and 800 AD, much later than the Bering Strait migration.
Not the people above me actually believing in that pseudo science.
No sweet potatoes for the Polynesians for one thing, which is an important crop
@@vicenteabalosdominguez5257 Highly debatable
I think the most alien part of this thought experiment is really just what the Amazon rainforest would even look like without indigenous people because we really have no way of knowing truly to what extent people actually cultivated it which I think is super fascinating.
It is funny because if you read the journals the Spanish wrote they pretty much had to put a soldier on every corner to keep the tribes that the Aztecs were oppressing for sacrifices from ripping aztecs apart after the Spanish took over.
They weren't mere tribes, they were rival city-states. Reminder that the Aztec empire is a tributary empire, composed of a Triple Alliance of city-states and dozens of subjugate city-states. The indigenous that allied with the Spaniards weren't just fed up with Mexica oppression (Mexica is what the people of the Aztec empire are called), they saw the arrival of the Spanish as an opportunity; they're trying to exploit the disruption of the status quo to take power for themselves. Of course, we all know it never went the way they wanted.
yeah, this is often overlooked, mostly by revisionist, how many local native allies Spanish had (the siege of todays Mexico City could hapen only because tens of thousands of local allies)
Those tribes hated Aztecs, and who wouldn't if you could be at any time hunted for human sacrifice.
"tribes"
19:49 I just love that we play out … to film noir jazz of wheat being harvested. BRAVO!
This was an exciting take. I've been working on a story with similar concept and the lack of a pre-existing system and population to exploit is definitely making me re-think the timeline for colonization attempts. Also I love the "I'm erasing Alaska" bit lol
I'm wondering how the Norse colonization would've gone in this scenario, I think it would be an interesting development.
I think there may still be Inuit people as they are from post ice age migrations. Perhaps they gone further south than OTL as far as Queen Charlotte Islands in the west and Nova Scotia in the East
@@RocketHarry865 well no because they migrated from siberia to alaska.
@@RocketHarry865 Ayup, no Inuit in this scenario. If Humans could make it to the Canadian Archipelago and Greenland, then we get the whole Americas populated almost instantly.
Inuit didn't necessarily live in the icy north because it was fun and giggles, they lived there because other people lived south of them.
the premise of an empty Americas would make for a great plot for an award winning sci-fi novel
Even better: one day in 2036 everyone in North and South America vanishes. Basically, "The Leftovers" with a lot more geopolitics.
not even neccesary americas. just the setting of "an empty continent sized area" gives a ton of setting possibility
@@leobastian_ In addition to a less populated, less developed Europe.
My first thought is that all the mega fauna would still be there
Love you videos man, keep up the great work 👍
I love them to
Here's an idea: What if Sun Yat-Sen hadn't died of liver cancer, and instead lived about 30 years longer?
This one! 😃
who is this man?
he would have eventually invented war 2
@@yoursleepparalysisdemon1828 Sun Yat-Sen was a dangerous man. The Qing were right to fear him.
@@yoursleepparalysisdemon1828 He was an important figure in China during the early twentieth century. I don't know enough of the specifics, so have this link instead. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yat-sen
I just got back from visiting Mayan ruins in Mexico and this kind of blew my mind.
I also wonder if the vikings would have abandoned Vinland. Sure, it was far away, but with no Skraelings to deal with, they might have been more motivated to stay.
eh the viking were raiders, not conquerors or settlers, imo I dont think it would change anything for the vikings atleast
@@pynk7ivoryI don't know, they originally came to Vinland to look for lumber, and had they not encountered hostile natives they might well have sailed down the coastline or just settled Newfoundland. It's a lot more pleasant than Greenland, so without the threat of war, many people might have moved on from Greenland to stake claims in the Americas.
It is actually becoming more commonly believed amongst anthropologists that ancient peoples may have also arrived in the New World via the Pacific Islands. That sounds hard to believe at first, but if you look at a map of the islands you'll see that they form a chain leading just 2,180 miles from the coast of Peru. In fact, I'm 1947 a Norwegian ethnographer named Thor Heyerdahl, actually said from Peru to Raroia in the Tuamotus after just 101 days.
The Polynesians were quite impressive in their ability to find islands so them settling South America would be really possible without any real competition. If they are able to make it back with the directions then I'd see some king willing to settle people there
I was looking for this comment i was wondering if anyone else also considered the idea that the new world might have been populated by Polynesian peoples. (albeit way later than in our timeline) so when the Spanish show up, the east coast would be empty but eventually when they get to the west coast there are farming taro and fishing and stuff.
Sailed
I think that's unlikely without at least Polynesian-level technology. And the people that populated Americas can't possibly be Polynesian since none of the numerous languages native in Americas are Austronesian. Compare it with Madagascar, while still being far-flung, the language is Austronesian instead of the expected Bantu.
@@xwtek3505 Madagascar didn't have competition with another arriving group. It's quite possible that Polynesians similar to the hypothetical Spanish, arrived & colonized the south-western coast but then encountered the Berring-Straight peoples and were absorbed/altered by them. I mean the Inuit languages don't have much similarity with asian language families despite those peoples arriving in N America much later than these hypothetical Polynesians.
I highly suspect it is a case of "yes, and" as it is most reasonable that population group that had the means to arrive while the continents was largely uninhabited did so, but that once the continents were continuously inhabited those populations diverged and changed through their interactions with each other far more than the populations they originated from. As the Amerindian languages are extremely diverse and do not support a single-common-origin language.
I see Cody is embracing his 40K side with this new plushie
Sir that's a teutonic knight.
@@meneither3834, Black Templar: Nah we claim him.
@@Butter_Warrior99 Exterminatus on Jewish people ordered by Austrian Painter (Essheliarchy)
For the Emperor
Deus vult
As a Native American, my honest reaction is 🫥
I know others have mentioned it, but looking at the Pleistocene extinctions you can actually track them in near perfect sync with human migration patterns. Basically, the further away from Africa where every large animal evolved to deal with human predation, the more exctinctions of large animals occurred. Elephants and rhinos live in India & SE Asia still, and lions and hippos lived in Europe until late into human civilization (late as in Early Roman Republic I think)
So with no humans reaching the Americas, even with a changing climate the conditions were and kinda are still similar to warm interstadials that Pleistocene fauna enjoyed, so there's a good chance the Americas would be a wild safari similar to Africa. Now the exploitation of *that* resource I'd love to see in a video!
The food domesticated by the natives Americans are really important that sometimes we take for granted.
Constructive commentary on some of the Mesoamerican stuff that comes up here: 9:19: The Map of the Aztec empire here is missing Sonouscuo/Xoconochco, which was a province in Chiapas. While maps of the empire do vary in HOW they depict territory in that area, (same for if Teotitlan is Aztec controlled as shown here) not showing any at all is erroneous. Also, the map solely showing Aztec territory is pretty misleading: Those enclaves had indepedent kingdoms and city-states, West Mexico and the Yucatan Peninsula had them as well like the Purepecha Empire, various Maya kingdoms, etc. On that same token, colonization of Mexico was only really starting with the fall of the Aztec, since all of these other states (and the states inside the empire which didn't cede to Spanish authority) wouldn't be conquered for centuries (though most were within a few decades).
9:33: Jaguar knights weren't half naked with just pieces of Jaguar pelts: They wore full body warsuits called Tlahuiztli (and beneath it, gambeson armor vest/tunics known as Ichcahuipilli), made from a thick cotton base and a mosaic of tens of thousands of iridescent, glittering feathers arranged to make the jaguar spots (or other designs). While no Tlahuiztli survive, quite a few iridescent feather mosaic "paintings" with catholic imagery made by Mesoamerican artists do, and they're some of the most stunning pieces of art ever produced. Tlahuiztli warsuits (and tunic forms of it, known as Ehuatl) were incredibly high effort pieces of equipment, the sterotype of Jaguar knights being sort of conan the barbian warriors could not be more wrong. (Though there are some accounts asserting that commoners who entered the Jaguar order as opposed to nobles had to make do with warsuits made from actual Jaguar pelts: these would still be full body garments, though)
9:16, 10:14, 10:24, 10:27: I realize you're trying to use royalty free and public domain images here, but just so people are aware, these are pretty poor visualizations of Mesoamerican cities and clothing. Much like how Jaguar knights had absurdly ornate warsuits and actual armor rather then just naked and with pelts, people had fine clothing and jewerly: There's a lot of fashion variation both between different civilizations and inside each one based on social context, but for the Aztec/Nahuas, rather then being mostly naked with just feather headdresses and the like, generally had men wore cloaks/mantles (Tilmatli), sort of like Greco-roman togas, while women wore baggy blouses and robes (huipil). For nobles, these would be richly colored and accented with floral, avian, geometric and mythological motifs and patterns, and wore with gold, jade, turquoise etc braclets and arm/leg bands, earrings and piercings; and fine feather tassels and other ornaments. If anything, actual Aztec fashion for women, especially with their hair buns/braids, looks closer to Japanese Geisha then anything most people think of when they hear "Aztec".
Cities, too, had buildings which were covered in smooth stucco and then painted in massive frescos and murals, and which had sculptural facades and ornaments, carved reliefs, etc. Cities had a significant amount of infrastructure with roads, aqueducts, and massive suburban sprawls around the city centers. Stuff only looks grey and worn and sparsely sticking out of jungles today because of erosion and sites not being fully excavated. The art of Tenochtitlan at 10:10 and 9:22 are better. Also, only the coasts, and lowlands around the Isthmus of Tehuantepec and in the Yucatan Penisula were really jungle: Much of Central Mexico where the Aztec were at was temperate to semi arid hills, valleys, and plateaus.
I've offered this in the past, but if you cover Mesoamerica more, i'd be down to send resources, information, accurate art and images I have permission to use, etc. Trey has my info.
Not to mention the mention fuedal empire, the Aztec had just overthrown themselves a few generations earlier.
Bump
We got actual scholars here
Also, really basic one, he called all eastern North American peoples hunter gatherers
That's VERY wrong
@@Tsuruchi_420 Oh I must have missed that, but yeah, the eastern US has a long history of town building societies.
Wow. I went to high school in the early 70s so you can imagine the media presentations we were given. (All respect to fantastic books). Not my first rodeo with this channel but strikes me how much I'm learning or re-learning. While being thoroughly entertained. With a narrator good enough that I'd probably tune in to hear him recite his grocery list.
Not as any boast but as now a semi-retired author/historian (vs just recalling high school), viewing this channel should rate college credits if not an entire course. Good job, AHH. ... (goes for Pointless Hub as well but going through THAT should earn a PhD. Just unsure in WHAT.)
~15:04 Very few of the native populations the French and English interacted with were hunter gatherers - a handful were, and none of them were as urbanized as some of the populations the Spanish encountered, but the significant majority of groups east of the Mississippi were agriculturalists.
And a significant number were agriculturalists until the horse came around, and they they turned into hunter/gatherers again, just doing it by horse.
16:53 I'd actually argue differently here! W/o natives, we wouldn’t see the same level of Megafaunal(Giant sloths, mammoths, remnant Terrorbirds, and Sabre-toothed cats)extinctions that we saw. The alternate european colonists would have been met with an american bestiary that they couldn’t ever have possibly imagined.
What if Russia Won the Polish vs Soviet War?
What if Russia Won the Estonian Independence War?
What if Russia Won the Winter War?
What if Inejirō Asanuma Was Never Assassinated?
Russia did win the Winter war though
On paper
What if the white death Sniped Stalin
@@lionheart6176 having to sue for peace against a country 50 times smaller than yours because they keep putting your soldiers in a blunt isn't much if a victory.
@@fullmetaltheorist ironically enough the fact that they lost so many soldiers in the winter war was beneficial to them since suddenly Stavka realised that maybe incompetent officers and outdated tactics arent a way to win a war. Also it was the Finnish who wanted peace since by the end of the war the Soviets were actually pushing them hard and got most of the lands they wanted
@@fullmetaltheorist as I said...on paper
Good take, good humor. Couple of tips in case they help: Taino is actually Taïno, or in Spanish, Taíno, meaning that it's three syllables, "tah-ee-no". Think of the vowels in "naïve". And around 3:20 you said "descendants" when you meant "ancestors"-this is fairly common, but it's confusing for someone like me who's into family history and word history. "Ancestor" is related to the Latin ante- prefix, meaning "before"; "descendant" depends on the conventional metaphor of a family tree representing the past as higher up and the present at the bottom, so that descendants actually _descend_ from those who came before, like apples falling not far from the tree.
I'm so glad someone else pointed out how he misused descendants, it always bothers me when it happens and it happens so much more frequently than I expect. I'm not even super into family history, just science in general and especially animals, living and extinct
00:01 is a second after the start of the video
The greatest comment I’ve ever read.
Thx
skibidi toilet?
YO THAT'S MY FAVORITE PART
Thanks bro
As someone who mostly grew up in Indiana, Indiana without corn would be weird as heck man outside my neighborhood there was a cornfield
The ecological impact this would have would be incredible to witness. Perhaps mammoths and giant ground sloths would still be around
Not only that, the Earth itself may have been cooler overall with all of NA not being inhabited. The natives clear cut forests for their agriculture. It is surmised that with the native population collapse, more carbon dioxide was sequestered since forests overran those previous cleared out lands and may have helped continue the "Little Ice Age" that happened from 1300 to 1850. Now imagine two continents of old growth forest that hasn't been touched by human hands. It would clearly help cool down the Earth more than it did when Columbus went there.
I have been pondering this for so long thank you
Hey Alternatehistoryhub I developed this scenario a while back for a what if where Zealandia collided with sahul to create a continent called Sahullandia I wondering if you could talk about such a scenario in a future video. I even made a map of it if you needed a point of reference. Feel free to dm me if you would like.
Id love to see a video about what if the Himalayan mountains didn't exist, geography shapes politics, and having no barrier between the 2 most populated nations ever would possibly be world changing
You'd also need to get rid of the Tibetan plateau.
i think some of these alternate histories are what althisthub wants as realities
@@sinoromaneven with everything AltHistHub said in the video theres still weirdos like you wholl call him racist for making such a video
this sounds interesting as hell actually
for that to be the case south Asia would have to never bang into the rest of Asia and instead be a the largest island/smallest continent in the middle of otl Indian ocean.
Want an alternate history where horses never crossed the land bridge
You forgot avocados! I love how those only still exist because of people.
They were originally spread by giant ground sloths, and would have gone extinct when those sloths did. It's why the seeds are so big.
Well without humans the sloths probably wouldn't have gone extinct.
@@ATBZ Oh hey, you're right! Don't know why I got it in my head that them being megafauna was what killed them, but apparently they went extinct when humans showed up.
I mean, I guess it was that they were megafauna that got them killed by humans... "Giant meat, we kill!"
Not really a historically significant fruit though. Europe already had apples, pears, and grapes. Or if you wanted to get exotic, oranges. These were all easier to cultivate than avocados, and grapes could even be used to make wine.
But even this is all ignoring the important fact that fruits are a luxury. Asking to consider the world would look like without a specific fruit is like asking to consider a world without the ball point pen. I mean sure, it would be slightly worse, but it certainly wouldn't change history.
@@andrasfogarasi5014 Limes helped the Brits sail without getting scurvy
@@richardarriaga6271 Yeah, but you can substitute any other food high in vitamin C. Admittedly, not all of them store as well.
It really was an interesting thought experiment. If we went even deeper and focused on how horses and camilids didnt cross over, literally every aspect of ancient humanity changes, The chariot, the mongles, sending messages over long distance, everything about humanity changes and leads to groups staying in just one are primarily. Basically my point is, look at his older video of no horses/camilids coming over to see the breath of this change.
Not to mention that both continents would still be covered in mega fauna.
Not only would colonization be less profitable, it would also be insanely dangerous outside of urban areas.
The new world would be seen as a land of monsters.
This was really good. It shows the importance and impact of indigenous populations of the Americas on global society. Thanks for making this
There's non zero odds it wouldn't even be called America. There's been some recent theorizing that the name might actually come from the "Amerrisque" mountain range in Nicaragua and Honduras.
Basically the idea is these mountains are where *SOMEONE* told Columbus the gold they had came from, and so when people asked him where it came from, he said it was American Gold. Also apparently the attribution to Amerigo Vespucci was originally worded as a sort of "WELL WHERE ELSE COULD THE NAME HAVE COME FROM‽', implying that it was a guess made by folks who had already lost track of where the name had come from.
amerigo vaspucci?
i assume the name came from him…
because it came from some old ass map by someone who wasnt really a cartographer.
amerigo vaspucci?????
amerigo is the reason america wasn't called colombia
This was a great and well thought out video. Good job Cody, and very respectful to native people as their role in European colonization
I wonder how this would have effected Leif Erikson and other Viking’s voyage to North America, considering his brother, Thorvald, actually came into contact and fought with Native Americans in modern-day Canada.
I don't think it changes much. Perhaps they have an easier time exploring further inland but they would still abandon the territory simply because of environmental and distance issues.
probably would have stayed, since they wouldn't be chased out by aboriginal americans who thought the mouldy cheese they were given was poison
They would have no enemies
@@oompa1274they would still have the wilderness as an enemy
I wonder if the Polynesians might have settled along South America's west coast.
I think it would be awesome to see a video of what human history would be like without horses! Very different, but it would be cool to hear you think through it!
He did.
I think this video is a good example of how much we owe natives
Too bad the only thing that was given to them is genocide and disease
This videos gives the idea of "Owning Land is meaningless if there were no one to tell you what to do with it"
As someone who's entire career is based around food. Thank you for bringing up native American crops
I totally forgot about the patatoes. Prussia and the Prussian army cold have never (not for a long time) became so powerful. I think they would have found ways to produce better crop, but it would have taken a long time. Enough to change the entire history from then onwards. (Japan and/or China comming out of their isolation periods before that and settling the west coast of NA)
Don't forget the Polynesians. Kon-Tiki can make the trip, so all ya gotta do is sail it the other direction.
I find it funny that Cody finds this scenario strange considering he made a video about the moon being habitable
I just want to recommend/introduce everyone to a channel called Ancient Americas. Specifically, I'd like to recommend their two videos - one about maize and another about potatoes. It really shows how much we owe the ancient American civilizations for the foods and ingredients that the world has today.
Ancient Americas is fucking amazing, very good recommendation
I love seeing channel recommendations come up organically in the comment section, rather than being spit out by the algorithm. Thank you, I'll check them out
I know you mentioned it in your iceberg video, but are you ever going to do a detailed video on LORAG? As an Australian it’s always been an interesting concept to me, though it’s a bit sad reading about all this delicious food that doesn’t exist.
what is lorag?
@@Mushgal_ he's that guy who speaks for the trees
@@Mushgal_land of red and gold
No corn, peppers, tomatoes, potatoes, squash, zucchini, beans, quinoa, etc.
Scenario Idea: What If Nobody Had Lived In The Old World?
But humans come from Africa?
@@admiraloscar3320 I imagine a scenario where, somehow, the prehistoric humans in the Old World keep dying off/aren't thriving there - the Old World is somehow too hostile for humans - but they thrive in the New World once they migrated there; the ones left in the Old World went extinct.
Interesting video. I'd also like to hear your opinion on what would happen if Spain never gave Louisiana back to France in 1800. I tried writing a scenario for it and found that it sure changes a lot in North American history!
5:54
Not just them, but canids as well.
Dogs are of North American origin, and without a land bridge, they’d never be able to cross into Eurasia.
Meaning no wolves, dholes, painted dogs, or any other old-world canid.
In their place, there would be dog-like hyenas, which filled a similar role in the old-world ecosystem in the place of canids.
Meanwhile, canids in the Americas would be much more diverse, including large, bone-crushing forms, with the largest being around the size of a lion.
Imagine that, herds of horses and camelids being terrorized by giant, lion-sized dogs, with jaws powerful enough to crush through bone.
Dogo rode trip on a boat thousands of years ago
Speaking of the New World, i feel like an interesting idea would be a video on what if the pre-colombian empires and civilizations avoided colonization and survived into the modern era
Some did, the Spanish allied with native kingdoms and integrated them into their civilization. Extermination was an Anglo thing.
@@celdur4635 Well yeah, but they were still subjugated and a catholic european society suplented the traditional native societies, my suggestion would be that the natives maintain their institutions and societies as the dominant political structures in the Americas (As in, theres no colonization of the Americas)
@@Post-Ioooo You have no idea how that process was done. The first churches in the new world, at least in Cusco were funded by Inca nobility, the ones that were allied with the Spanish against Atahualpa.
BTW the same thing happened in Europe with the Celts, Germanics, Iberians, Greeks, etc.
Did Jesus and what would become Catholicism "supplanted traditional native societies and institutions" ? of continental Europe?
How different where native institutions to Spanish ones? do you know? because i do, and it wasn't that different, peasants, bureaucracy/traders and low/high nobility, highly structured and segmented, massive amount of intermarriage with Spanish people to secure alliances and access to world trade routes, which the natives didn't have access to.
The Inca controlled and suppressed dozens of kingdoms, centralized states that had different religions, language, customs and ethnography than them, and welcomed their Spanish allies that helped them liberate from Inca tyranny, and brought a new religion that didn't requiere sacrifices and connected them to the rest of the world.
The nobles rights were respected, compared to Inca rule it was a much better deal.
Finally it was diseases (and time) that wiped out 1500's native culture, 300 years of Viceroyalty, intermixing, trade, people change.
@@celdur4635anglo w
@@celdur4635 "You have no idea how that process was done" he says to an indigenous-descendant brazilian, anyhow the idea that indigenous civilization and organization wasn't destroyed by europeans because certain political groups among them decided to side with the colonizers is ridiculous, even if there was popular support -against the incas/aztecs- this was mostly due to conflicts between the different native groups and not any support for the europeans who did proceed to change much of the social structures present in the continent as well as genocide the indigenous populations.
And yes, "Jesus" (not real lmao) and christianity did supplant and destroy pagan european civilization, not only were there genocides such as the one against the baltic prussians, with christian domination came the destruction of the pagan and tribal social structures who were replaced by the christian order and narrative, this is something that extended towards religion, government structure, culture, hierarchy and so on.
Though it is true that both Inca, Aztec and Mayan (and yes, only those three as the Caribs, Macro-Jês, Tupi-Guaranis, and etc. had very different social structures that the europeans unarguably destroyed) had similar government structures to the feudal ones found in most of settled eurasia and africa the spanish still usurped the native rulers and reorganized those institutions for the sake of serving the spanish crown, the stable and flourishing intra-american trade routes were destroyed and in place of the different states that existed in the americas the viceroyalties were put in place.
As for your defense of spanish colonization i don't really care, the Incas were bad sure but the spanish did all those things you accuse the incas of doing as well as you know, genocided and colonized much of the population, the Incas were tyrannical because they were an empire, something the spanish also were and that doesn't justify the massive amount of destruction and death caused by europeans, you say that catholicism didn't require sacrifices yet you ignore the massive amount of bloodshed and slavery done in the name of this very same religion, in that very same continent.
And lastly, no, the spanish, portuguese and angloids all directly participated in the destruction of pre-columbian culture, it wasn't just diseases, but active conquest, destruction of monuments and infraestructure, mass killings and slavery that brought an end to these civilizations.
My guess is that since there wouldn't be any people there would be no incentive to explore the land.
No potatoes, no tomatoes, no corn. Because no guy existed to domesticate the wild version of those plants.
No guys to tell the Europeans were the gold, silver and other resources are.
Without horses there *might not be Europeans*
@@92HazelMocha im operating under the scenario that that the horses crossed over but not people somehow
the worst part of this timeline would be no potatoes
I once (more than 15 years ago) saw a documentary that claimed that inuit might have went from southern France to Newfoundland along the ice shore.
They could have travelled by canoe (or something) during the day and slept on the ice at night. Seals and fish were already alive then, so there was plenty of food.
That would imply that even when there is neither Kamchatka nor Alaska, people would still move to the Americas.
Also you forgot somehow the Vikings who came to Northamerica. They even settled in Iceland (where nobody else lived). They could've settled in New England as well.
😂😂😂😂😂
I think the bigger picture (no pun intended) would be the megafauna. They were hunted to extinction by the time that the Europeans arrived in the original timeline. In the new timeline, those explores and settlers would have had to deal with terror birds, dire wolves, mammoths, mastodons, saber tooth cats, etc. It would take a LONG time to try to get a toe-hold on the mainland.
Your videos are a modern treat
One other thing to note - at least in North America - was that the natives pretty much cleared out the wilderness, leaving it fit for habitation. When the English showed up, one of the things that impressed them was how perfect the land seemed for their expansion and settlement (even with the natives in the way). With no native population, North America (on the east coast, at any rate) would have been primeval forest.
Here’s an idea that’s been in my head for a bit, and while I’ve got a rough idea I think you’d be better at exploring it further than I can.
*What if earth orbited a gas giant?*
Similar to your Great Lakes or habitable moon video, let’s pretend that this scenario doesn’t change earth’s history up to the point of humans emerging. Just have the earth put in orbit of a gas giant, with the giant orbiting 1AU from the sun
In terms of humanity, there’s basically two scenarios here:
1.) how would a gas giant in the night sky influence religion instead of our normal moon?
Not only would it likely be much bigger in the sky than our moon (and thus bigger than the sun in the sky too), but the earth would be tidally locked to it, meaning it would be in the same spot in the sky… permanently. How would that sight (as well as the other moons orbiting it) influence ancient cultures and concepts like geocentrism or heliocentrism?
2.) how would explorers react to discovering it?
If we assume the Americas are on the side facing the gas giant and Eurasia is facing away from it, that means no European would know about the gas giant until traveling to the Americas. Would this influence anything upon their return?
Couple issues with that scenario: If the Earth was tidally locked and had virtually no rotation on its axis, then the chances of advanced life developing would be very slim. Additionally, the Earth (as a moon) would orbit around the gas giant and that gas giant's orbit would in turn allow different sides of the Earth to get sunlight, but depending on its orbital period, you would have periods of extreme darkness.
@@cylontoaster7660 i understand that the formation of life and plate tectonics would be vastly different if earth were a moon, hence my disclaimer at the start.
As for sunlight exposure and planetary illumination, that could be a talking point too considering how it would alter the lives of nocturnal animals
Glad I scrolled this far down, because brother this is a scenario in my manuscript that I've been dwelling on how it should work for months now. So far I just got rid of the sun and made it all snowy (Gas giant core provides some heat and minute unnoticeable to the human eye light, so there is life) but know I see there's actually a chance of making it plains and forests and meadows n stuff. Thank you, I greatly appreciate this.
Whoa that really was an awesome video!
Excellent video as always, just a quick note: when talking about New Spain, that only refers to the Viceroyalty of New Spain, which encompassed most northern territories of the Spanish Crown in the Americas, and did not encompassed the territories in South America. Those southern Spanish territories were under the control of the Viceroyalty of Peru, and later under the Viceroyalty of New Granada and the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata as well. Actually, for most of the colonial period in Latin America. Though these Viceroyalties did not come to be all at the same time, they were all independent from each other and answered to the Peninsular authority back in Europe.
I was so confused when you said "why didnt spain colonise the south?" But then i realised you were talking about the southern part of usa not the actual south
You have an interesting imagination Cody. And don't let anyone tell you different. Just keep on thinking on. I honestly admire your content man.
Have you ever thought about doing one about what would’ve happened if the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth hadn’t been methodically dismantled by its neighbors (and crippled by its own rules)? I think your videos are excellent, and I’d love to see your take on this.
The domestication of tomatoes is a point I find contentious. For a period tomatoes were grown as an ornamental plant, it's possible people might 'accidently' end up turning the wild tomato into a new possibly different crop, having them turn out more like grapes.
I mean, vanilla was discovered by chance, so why couldn't it also happen to tomatoes.
I think his main point with that segment was to highlight just how much effort the natives put into domesticating these crops.
And without that effort maize would still just be a lame wild mountain grass that is not worth farming when you already have Wheat & Barley.
Although it does make you wonder what other plants are currently barely edible that have the potential to be delicious if we put the time into making them delicious.
And something he didn't get into is the possibility that some of these pro-crops may have not even existed in the alternative ecosystem of the new world that did not experience the same human interventions. (Human hunting and competition is believed to have pushed most american mega fauna to extinction, even if not singlehandedly, atleast as a contributing factor.)
long time view and this one was really fun thanks!
0:57 Yeah.. That lady next to the king does look pretty disappointed that Columbus didn't find anyone over there.