StarTrek Dominion War : Klingon Empire Destroyed?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2017
- The Klingon Empire was perhaps one of the largest catalysts for the war. The corruption within their own government led them to weaken the Alpha Quadrant as a whole - and open up the attack.
This is StarTrek Dominion War: Klingon Empire Destroyed?
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You have to remember that the Klingons already had their civil war when Gowron first rose to power. He was an outsider the established houses opposed, and effectively purged the council of dissenting voices during the course of the war. We know from an TNG episode that he was consolidating power by rewriting history within a year of the end of the war. Gowron was effectively ruling unopposed, which is how he became so corrupt. His death created a power vacuum which Martok could easily step into.
It's critical then to understand that Martok was a man of low birth assuming power at a point when the great houses had disgraced themselves. This will inevitably lead to significant reforms in Klingon society. Political power would become more concentrated in the office of the Chancellor, while the KDF would be completely dominant over any remaining forces held by the last few great houses standing. The Klingon Empire would become more meritocratic and less nepotistic under MArtok, simply by dint of his influence on the Culture. This would make the Empire more effective and hasten the pace at which they are able to rebuild.
As Worf pointed out, the Empire was founded by a Klingon of "low birth". That's Kahless himself.
Agree. Martok, a warrior, but a man of integrity would bring true honor and bring the necessary balance to make needed reforms and root out corruption. He would eventually have an honorable high council. With Worf on the look out as well and reporting to the Federation of any potential problems. The Federation would assist the Klingons against any future conflicts with the Romulans. A reformed Empire would rebuild and survive.
The Klingons are great warriors. But the way I see it, they don't rule the sword. The sword rules them. They have yet to learn the final lesson of a true master: when to put the sword down.
With Martok they would hopefully have a good chance of it.. by the 27th century they join the Federation - so at that point they atleast join a lesser war-like organization :P Well.. relatively..
THIS
when they are dead that is when a warrior puts down their sword. if a warrior can still stand then they can still fight.
@@leifisaacson4624yeah balance is needed, the klingon empire joins the federation some point in this millennium, they survive and will likely rebuild with others! for the empire!!!
YES THIS !!!!! THIS IS WHAT STAR TREK DISCOVERY SHOULD HAVE BEEN !!!! POST-DOMINION WAR STORIES !!!! sure the novels did it, but they swept away all the hardships and even had a Federation alliance to try and stop another Borg Invasion. To the novels' credit, it was a full on invasion.
Got a lot more coming to the series so stay tuned :) I also do theory crafting so might do a what if to if people want it
btw, I saw your vid on Discovery. What's your take on what star trek is ? I'd like to venture that it's about the learning experience of life
What happened after the Borg war was a ton of fun to read though. Kind of a throw back to Kirk's era of "Dpace Cowboy"...when there wasnt a great feeling of peace and the Captains were once again the heroes.
DOWSOE Writers/producers hate adhering to continuity, especially stuff that is considered outdated. Also, not directed at you but I have noticed theres a lot of conservative star trek fans in these threads with notions that liberals are naive about how the world works and other garbage. In the future, data and facts would prevail so its not logical for the Federation to be naive, just cause of the leftist bent of the series.
Wrong.
The Klingon Empire threw their ships and their best warriors into useless conflicts. The Romulans, Federation, and even Cardassians valued their young soldiers.....they did not see glory in a combat related death....they saw it as a necessity at times. It's never a good day to die. Unless you are 100 years old and surrounded by your family.
As the Japanese and the Germans learned......you can't be a master race if you run out of soldiers, and you're forced to send old men and teenage boys to the line.
Indeed. Especially if you get into three wars back-to-back-to-back
You prattle like a weakling, afraid to live.
You need to calm down....come over to Quark's and have an extra-large prune juice and tell me why you people wanna die in battle.
Hah.. The only thing I saw on my alert was 'You need to Calm Down' - I was confused a moment..thought maybe somebody took what I said very heated and it wasn't my intent ;)
Might I suggest cutting back on the 2309.
There is no finer vintage I know.
Try Romulan ale...It's much smoother
I think there are some positive signs for the Klingons. Martok might be an effective leader. Not only respected by the old gaurde, but also having close friends and allies with nonKlingons as well.
No less important, throughout DS9 we see elements of Klingon culture moving outward. The Klingon restaurant on the station, for example, is a popular spot even for humans! Cultural exchange can only do good for the ridged Klingon society. I doubt it will become a cosmopolitan Utopia overnight, but it's going in the right direction for them.
Yea, and that's what I was saying at the end a bit. The best case scenario is that it would be akin to the federation, just with the warrior background as its ancestry.
I like Genral Martok , however the reality of being preoccupied for years rebuilding the fleet ,damaged infrustructures, recuriting qaulified warriors and still having the Romulans interfering to influence the high council would make the Klingons ineffective and unreliable allies that can't even patrol what's left of their territories, so, likely they would have to join the federation out of necessity!!
Lore Reloaded personally I hope the Klingon Empire never comes like the Federation. I always hope they remain good allies but kept their separate distinct cultures. And the Klingons became part of the Federation in the future Quark would be right about the Federation with his root beer analogy
people are forgetting that the klingon society is a caste society. that cook in the Klingon restaurant is from one of the non warrior ones and at an earlier point in their history there was a balance between the castes but the warrior cast came to dominate Klingon society sometime before star trek enterprise, it is even mentioned a few times. and with General Martok originally coming form the labor/farmer caste he would be far more open to restoring the balance to Klingon society which would lead to a more egalitarian society at lest between the different castes. its why Klingon science has lagged behind in anything other then matters of war.
Well that time cop in Enterprise when he brought Archer to Enterprise J, he did say that the Klingons did eventually join the Federation.
Indeed. I am kicking myself I didn't include that.
As of STO current timeline the Federation and the Klingon Empire are part of a major Alliance of races that were created in response to Iconian harassment and attacks, and were standing members at the end of the conflict and since then have cooperated in joint missions between both races along with the Romulan Republic. With STO mentioning the Temporal Cold War and the 2nd Kilometer accords its likely the Empire Joined the Federation either during the Events of STO or decades after at least as a vassal like state with some autonomy, there own ships and society intact but likely following some Federation laws. Indeed the klingons show signs of this before creating the Alliance as they begun having similar federation concepts, like integrating other races into the Empire,
I tend to abolish pretty much anything from enterprise from being canon. I would think the klingons and the federation would either become one or would end up forging a major coalition that would persevere for centuries
Enterprise is in an alternate timeline that began with the events of First Contact.
Also, in the buildup to 2409 and where STO kicks off, it shows that the Klingon Empire integrated the Orion Syndicate, Gorn Hegemony, some of the Nausicaans, and the Letheans into its society. Essentially, a militarized version of the Federation in some regard.
The Federation is just not good at conflict resolution. It was fun watching ‘Rod’s Utopia be sundered against some harsh realities.
Good drama.
how do the klingons not have millions of men in their army? i mean earth has at least 12 million active military personnel as it is now.
You forgot that Janeway came back with so much technology that the Federation had so much leverage against everyone.
I felt dax had the most underappreciated scene with her statement. It hit home on many levels sadly we never got to see how prophetic her words became.
"you came to accept a government you know is corrupt" possible real life link here?
@@overloader6726 Can there ever be a time when the few rule over the many and corruption isn't the result?
As we heard Daniels say in enterprise, the Klingons join the federation
It would have been cool if Gowron had led the empire into joining the Dominion, then it would have been federation and cardassia in the alliance. Bonus feature martok could have been a guerilla resistance leader, fighting as a fifth column from inside the empire.
Even Gowron would never give the Empire to the Dominion.
Great video! It was fun seeing this all come together in your live stream.
Thanks ;) I'll try doing it consistently when I put stuff together, if people enjoy hanging out - I don't mind.
If anything, Martok being at the helm would solidify the Klingons faith in their own traditions. If the Klingon Empire survived corrupt leader after corrupt leader who got there like a romulan would, the general would be seen by most as a leader worth following. And the great houses who care more about their own power would rather try to exploit his inexperience at politics and try to manipulate him, instead of openly going against him and risk being seen as dishonorable Pat'hak.
And here is the thing, they won. They did not lose. Sure, they might have had big losses so that they have to rebuild their fleets. But their home systems were not devastated, the leadership of the empire is still in power (No man rules alone, not even a klingon. The political structure that supported Gowron would still be there.). Slones assesment would not mean the Klingons being out of the game. Just the opposite. If anything a destabilized, failing great power would be a far bigger problem as one that will survive but needs time to rebuild. Power vacuum is often a bigger threat as a rival who you understand and can handle.
What happened with Section 31 also caused a shift in how intel issues would be handled. Private commanders were no longer allowed to handle things without oversight. Additionally intel ships were built to handle missions that had to do with secrecy and espionage. The treaty of Algeron was abolished and the federation ships were now able to be equipped with cloaking devices though intel ships at least in the federation would be restricted to intel ships only. These ships would also have special sensors and probes that were not shared by other ships that allowed for extra details to be gathered from enemies.
Is this from a specific book or STO that I am missing?
Good job. Well thought out.
Thanks! It's really an honor to do these, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Great analysis. New subscriber!
Yay :) Welcome!
excellent presentation.
Thanks, I aim to please ;)
I think it's questionable how much the Klingons actually suffered. Because there was never any mention of the Dominion actually attacking or occupying their worlds. Whereas we know that the Dominion invaded Federation territory, destroyed their shipyards, and even took over Betazed and Benzar.
So chances are, the Federation actually suffered more infrastructural damage than the Klingons. Klingons may have lost ships, but the Federation lost the ability to build ships.
its possible..
Much like the Russians, every Klingon family lost a father, a son, and/or a brother from the war. No matter how glorious their sacrifices are made out to be, they still have families that are deeply unhappy about it. They basically lost a generation to the war. Their taste for war has been sated at this point.
We don't know anything about Klingon Territory being attacked because it wasn't a part of the story arc. The writers never chose to explore that part of the conflict. We know by the time Dominion forces launched a surprise attack on the Klingons, they had recently suffered a civil war, a campaign against Cardassia, a brief but costly conflict with the Federation, and heavy losses trying to hold what took from Cardassia. Though not threatened with losing their own Territories until later in the war, they were taking severe losses before the Breen even joined the Dominion. With the majority or their remaining forces badly outnumbered and attempting to hold the line, they were losing almost every engagement for weeks. Klingon pride would make it difficult to discuss with outsiders their own worlds taking punishment from raids. More likely, they would downplay and try to minimize such defeats. Even if they had suffered little in domestic damage, the economic strain from putting everything they had into war would leave them weakened. Their influence, their survival hinges on military conquest. Through all their fighting, the Empire didn't really retain territorial gains from anyone and would have little left to attempt any new conquests for years. This is what would put them at a severe disadvantage in growth and technological progress to everyone except the Cardassians.
@@dragonknightleader1 Military deaths for the USSR in world war II are estimated at 8.7 million at the low end and 14 million at the high end to reach that point? If only half a million Klingons died in the war, I have to ask just how few Klingons are there that this can touch everyone? The numbers don't add up for such an effect, especially considering that Klingons are supposed to be a large multi-planet empire.
the klingons taste for war has been sated....yeah no. a Klingon warrior is the kind that will beat an opponent to death with their own severed arm. the warrior casts taste for war is never sated.
Interesting analysis of how the same values the Klingons glorified ultimately made them vulnerable, not only to external threats but to internal corruption and fracturing. I'd forgotten how Worf's personal growth and change echoed this, giving us further insight and sympathy into his culture.
Worf's experience of being raised and serving in the Federation let him realize how rigid Klingon culture and society were, despite his pride in it. He could foresee the inevitable consequence of that, but like a lot of Klingons was in denial about it until the Dominion War brought it all down.
He was always a good juxtaposition against the klingons.
This is a fantastic video.
Happy to impress ;)
@3:54 one of my most favorite scenes in DS9.
Great job right on target
Glad you enjoyed
In a interview about a possible star trek show that would of featured Worf as a star ship captain, It was suggested that the Klingons were being merged into the federation as a means of survival. On the first episode Worf would be talking to some one on the view screen in a Klingon building with Federation personal talking to the Klingons about the ways of the Federation, But the show couldn't get any funding for the series that was going to be on a pay cable service.
At 7:30, where you predict the Klingons joining the Federation, it is worth noting that numerous glimpses into the future predict this as well. Numerous 29th century characters have spoken of a Federation that included diverse species and on several occasions the Klingons were listed.
Indeed. I wish I had included the Enterprise clip.
In a interview I've seen about the chance of a Worf Star Trek TV show, Not just showing Worf being a Captain, But would show the beginning intergration of The Klingon empire into the federation.
I always fought that a good story line would be for a post DS9 series set several decades after. The Klingons saw a rapid change in society, corruption has been almost eliminated and they are much more open, still somewhat hostile but more open to other ideas than ever before. And they begin the process of joining the federation, this could happen for the first season or 2 before they finally join, and there could be some interesting storylines to follow. What would be cool is that we would see klingon warbirds being part of starfleet.
At the same time the federation is going through a transition of being a Alpha quadrant power to a somewhat galactic power, venturing deeper into space than ever before due to transwarp technology and the Bejor wormhole.
Martok would have over his life done most of the work with weeding out corruption and changing klingon society, on his deathbed he names an older, wiser Worf as his successor and tells Worf that the klingon empire must join the federation and gain a seat at the council, and that is the only way the klingons can survive and remain relevant.
This feeling would be due to the fact that the federation has become the most powerful entity in the alpha quadrant and due to their advancements into transwarp are on a path to becoming a galactic power. Whereas the klingons and other powers in the alpha quadrants are nowhere near transwarp technology (Because the feds basically nicked it from the delta quadrant). Also the klingon cloaking technology (their single greatest asset) has basically fallen behind the times and is now mostly detectable by federation ships among others.
Worf would be the perfect leader to bring the klingons into the federation, he is respected among the federation and the klingons, he would have personally advised Martok on many occasions, and he was of both worlds understanding both societies intimately.
The federation would bring much needed technology and different thinking to the klingons whereas the klingons would bring a much needed, more military mindset to the federation. Which would help the feds since the Delta, Beta and Gamma quadrant are much more hostile than the Alpha quadrant particular because of the Borg in the Delta quadrant.
I like the video style with the sharp image in the centre and the blurry picture on the outside, a good way to get round the lack of 1080p DS9 👍
I try to mix up styles while still keeping it consistent. Sometimes the clips I get aren't in 1080p though and t his does help with it. I just like the visuals more than anything else :) Thanks for the compliment. I do this for a living so I attempt to make it as high quality as I can.
Ye none of the DS9 clips will be 1080p, they only converted TOS and TNG to HD. Keep up the good work!
I can't track it down but I recall and off handed comment from Q about how the Klingons would either be wiped out or just the Empire destroyed. Eventually I think the Klingons are heading for extinction and there is nothing the Federation can do about it.
Ironically what you described is pretty much what happens to the Klingon's in Star Trek Online. Although its not really clear of the years after the dominion war, we know that the Klingon's due to external threats from 8472 and lack of federation cooperation on the issue and the destabilization and fall of the Romulan Empire when the Hobius Star blew, had incorporated several species two primary ones being the Gorn and the Orion's into the Empire. Not only were they allowed command of Klingon ships but also titles and were clearly being treated similar to Klingon enough that several members of said species were prominent members in klingon society a remarkable change and showed how much the federation had influenced the Empire. It also shows that between the Dominion War to the events of STO that the Klingons must have had some serious rebuilding and loss of manpower in order to start having whole alien species be part of the crews to the point of being captain of said ships and leaders or at least influential members of society in the Empire. At this point in time in STO the klingons are major members of the Alliance with the federation and various galactic powers to the point they even command federation officers on assignments vital to both factions safety.
Yea, I thought that was interesting as well. STO I think does the most reasonable continuing of how the Klingon Empire would happen. Though it's not considered Solid Canon anymore and thus why I didn't include it.
This is a very interesting perspective, well done sir! I dont agree with your Romulan video(Fed's production capacity and human resourse simply outmatch those of Romulan's), but you have made a very good case for the Klingons here.
Thanks, I'm glad you are enjoying it. I have quite a few more to go. The Breen will be on Monday.. Think I am going to readdress the Death Toll for the Dominion war on wednesday.. Then will probably finish out with the Son'a, Ferengi, Dominion and Cardassians ;)
At least in the future timeline in Voyager the Klingons were still going strong. and at the end of DS9 it was estimated that they would take 10 years to recover from the war remember they still had emperor Khaless to lead there worrier culture in the old ways
Indeed.
The clips from the actual movies and shows is epic as you cite your points. "DON'T BELIEVE THEM! DON'T TRUST THEM!" Kirk is typically a nice guy, Klingons killed his illegitimate son, put his life and crew in danger. So much for an exploration ship, it was almost destroyed, all hands on deck, various times...
Indeed. I thought it was powerful and it was appropriate to use. I know that as I pulled all these clips together and cut them.. TOS was /drastically/ different from every other show to come after it.
Kirk was emotionally biased, but he was also no fool. He had spent his entire adult life dealing with Klingons, and he had no reasonable expectation that the Klingons would exercise honor unless it was convenient for their leadership. As it turned out, he was right. Gorkon and Azetbur were both good people, but the Empire reverted to old ways of thinking not long after the latter's death. We know that there would have been renewed hostilities in the 2340's if not for the Enterprise C's sacrifice fighting the Romulans. Kimpec was a more enlightened leader, but then he was assassinated by treachery and nearly supplanted by the Duras family. Gowron took over instead, but he was little better than Duras and only looked out for himself. Klingon culture has a high regard for honor, but it is rarely practiced by its leaders.
I like it you make awesome vids very interesting ones
Thanks, This is what I do for the moment so I am glad that my efforts are fruitful ;) Always feel free to let me know your thoughts, what you like - want to see - don't like. Always open to conversation.
Well thought out scenario. I no not believe they would have fallen as far as your hypothesis, but it could have gone that way.
Well, someone brought up a good point that I completely missed. In enterprise, the federation 'Time Agent' said the Klingons join the Federation in the 27th century. That is, ofcourse, technically canon - so in theory, they would have had to survive in some form till then. I really wish we would see another show Post Dominion war, it would be interesting to see where they go with it.
the empire will never yield ever
I agree with you
I could see a Alpha quadrant alliance continue with the Federation, the Klingons under Martok with advice from Ambassador Worf and Cardassia under a civilian government. I could see Bajor in the Federation. However, the alliance with the Federation and Klingons is much closer because of Martok and Worf. The Klingon Empire rebuilds and is a close partner but not part of the Federation always keeping a close watch on the Romulons and monitoring the Dominion and the Breen.
I always took the end of DS9 to imply that the Federation and Empire became so intertwined that a certain degree of indistinguishability was at work. I mean, Worf, a Federation officer, basically heavily influenced the politics of the Empire for decades, and was eventually named the Federation Ambassador to Chronos.They're economically and politically joined at the hip.Also, the Empire already did have some non-Klingon protectorates and citizens, though they aren't mentioned much.
I think the war ultimately forced the empire to rely on the federation a lot which is why it's confirmed that they become apart of the federation by the time agent in Enterprise.
Gowron wasnt so bad, he just got petty when it came to Hen.Martok
While most people don't care for the timeline of STO, but I find it to be a good medium for post nemesis stories. In that timeline the Klingons almost break, but things change drastically.
Yea, quite a few people like I think.. My theory is that it's main stream to not like STO so people don't. Unfortunately, official sources don't consider it as CAnon as they used to. But it has some good ideas with it..
The problem with STO as a story is that it's just one conflict after another without a lot of character development in-between. There is a lot of potential in the various arcs, but the way the game is presented makes proper storytelling difficult. Plus the fact that everything takes place within the span of two years just defies all reason.
Finally the first video where you hardly talk thank the Gods & Goddesses of Mount 🗻 Olympus for that
Ahh.. still giving me watch time and comments..thanks for the support :)
Well, what you described as the future of the Klingon empire is essentially the state at the beginning of STO.
Ironically, given what happens to Romulus in ST09 the Klingons probably remain the second most powerful faction in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant after the Dominion War.
After the destruction of Romulus the balance of power is likely:
1. Federation
2. Klingon
3. Breen
4. Tholian
5. Romulan
6. Cardassian
I think it is inevitable that the Klingons will become Federation members, and I think it is hinted at in Enterprise with the temporal cold war story arc.
If we ever get a Star Trek TV show set after Nemesis I hope they have it set up where the Klingon, Romulan and Cardassians are part of the Federation and the antagonists are either the smaller Alpha/Beta races like the Breen, Gorn and Tholians or Delta and Gamma quadrant border races. Then ending with a TV show version of the book based Borg invasion of 2381 in size of the Borg fleet (over 7000 Borg cubes).
Federation lifts the prime directive with respect to the empire. Having them as an ally you can claim a distance from while they do some of your dirty work falls nicely inline with a post dominion war federation 2.0. They can claim the moral high road while helping rearm and prop up the klingons who can probe the breen (sp?) and romulans for you.
It's a shame they decided to shy away from an amazing and limitless timeline to go retell old stories. The delta quadrant post voyager / post borg is an amazing and vast untapped story.
I hope they decided to do it at some point..
Hail Martok! Leader of the empire. Leader of destiny
In the star trek series enterprise, captain archer is told by a time traveler from the future about the federation, and he does mention the Klingons being part of it.
Yup
Daniel the time traveller agent from ENT confirms that the Klingons eventually joins the federation sometime before the 31st century
Yup, Wish I had included that in this.. kicking myself for not..
At that matters is honour!
Sounds good. I personally enjoy the STO lore, but a rebuilt and reformed Klingon...Imperial Republic? Is nice.
Except for the need to be more a defender of the realm, Worf would likely become an archetype of a proper modern Klingon officer. Not THE archetype but one of many applicable styles. A "Man of Law", of sorts, "For the law guides him as justice and honor are his weapon and shield against his foes and those of the Klingon people".
It would be interesting to see a TV series based on how well worf did for the empire.
What this does is underscores exactly why discovery is uneeded, redundant and just how much we need a new series that moves the timeline beyond VOY/NEM
I would love to see that.. I don't know that they can do it justice honestly.
Weaken the Alpha Quadrant as a Whole.. ? The Klingons brought much needed Battle Experience to the A.Q.
Do to the problems with child actors with the number of hours they can work a given day, with the time spent in the make up chair, filming on set, etc. the kid that played Worf's son, they removed him from TNG and brought him back later in DS9 as a young adult. By doing that in house with a diffrent actor, they made that Klingon reach maturity within 10 to 12 years.
Currently we will not trust a 14 year old to drive a Car by themselves, but a 14 year old Klingon is the size of a 24 year old and ready to sever on a star ship.
As stated in TNG and DS9, if the Klingon Empire does not have an outside enemy to fight they will civil war, for they have been at peace too long.
Depending on if you consider STO canon...ish or not. The Empire has become a feudalize federration where other species in as vassalraces. Forcing them to adopt their cultural ways. I like to believe that it was for the best. But now it seems that they are going to be one spectular light show when they go up in smoke.
Yea, I was on the fence about including ST:O or not. Honestly ST:O has lost a lot of the canonicity that it once was considered from an official standpoint. I still don't know if I should have included it or not. Though interestingly enough, in Enterprise - the Federation Time Travel Agent says that the klingons joined the federation in the 27th century. Wish I had remembered that.
More like the other cultures adapted to Klingon society.
Though I like your videos keep it up
I try!
The Organians said the Klingons and Federation would become "fast friends".
and they did become it..
I think there's an alternate view on the health of the Klingon Empire to
the one presented in Canon, though the canon supports this none the
less. Certainly the quality of leadership and the spread of corruption
are problems and serious ones to boot but in foreign affairs they're
more inclined to see the warlike nature of the other Empires of the
galaxy and have a bias towards action that the Federation lacked. The
very challenges discussed in this video speak to this, where the
Federation did precious little to adapt and prepare to the strategic
realignment that the opening of the wormhole presented the Klingons went
off to war against the Cardassians who would be allies to the Dominion
in time. This serves two purposes, one is securing territory closer to
the wormhole and the other being and the other being weakening a
potential ally of the Dominion.
As actors in the geopolitics of
star trek they're much better equipped to deal with the threats in the
universe, as evidenced by the fact that their greatest misjudgement was
that the Federation ( not a generally threatening entity ) would fight
to protect the Cardassians. None of this solves the internal challenges
of the Klingon Empire but the Dominion war certainly provided
opportunities to do just that and balanced against the naiveness of
Federation I'm not convinced the Klingon Empire is all that much less
survivable then the Federation.
I think this naiveness of the
Federation when it comes to geopolitics is important in seeing why Ezri,
two generations removed from having to really understand the Klingons,
only sees what the Klingon Empire lacks compared to the Federation and
not what the Empire has that the Federation doesn't.
If Discovery wasn't another prequel, we'd know exactly what happens after the war...
Here's to hoping they eventually realize what we actually want to see!
I've always wondered why the Klingons never used the conquered races in the Empire as front line cannon farder like the Romulans did with the Remins making them use outdated birds of prey and khitinga class ships under the command of lesser houses
In theory...they may have. Though this would make them look pretty bad to the viewer which I think would go against the goals of the deep space nine plot.. The federation alliance having a species that has effectively a slave race pushing for a win doesn't endear you
the klingons want all honour and glory for themselves -- even the honourable sacrifices
in prime directive rpg they do
We saw very little hand-to-hand combat in DS9. The Romulans used the Remans as front line soldiers, yet we never saw them until Nemesis, so anything is possible. I suspect the Klingon Empire's holdings were mostly on paper at this point though. In the Khitomer Accords they likely would have been forced reform the way they treated subject worlds in exchange for help from the Federation. I have the feeling this ended practices like conscription.
mastermonarch, Well, many of the races that joined the Empire are not warrior cultures, and many of them are actually protectorates of the Empire, so that would be seen as ineffective and dishonorable. That basically no non-Klingon members of the Defense Forces are shown is probably an oversight, though.
In the 26th century they join the Fed. A Klingon represented the fed in the temporal accords in the 26th-27th century as per STO.
STO is not alpha canon.. but it is said in enterprise
And Gowron was waiting the ships to make Martok look bad
agreed.
I'm thinking about other captains and how they would react to the other captains series such as Janeway vs the dominion or sisko as captain of the enterprise or Picard in the delta quadrant
There's a reviewer named 'sfdebris' (Sfdebris.com) - he does star trek series reviews and its funny because he'll have a Parody of the captains come together to discuss the situation of the specific show he is reviewing. Janeway is an ego-maniacle dictator, Archer is scared of the vulcans, Picard only ever uses technology and 'tachyon' beams - it's really funny.
Lore Reloaded will look him up
Excluding star trek online, there was that two part TNG episode that had the romulans invaded by the Klingon.. In one poss future I could see a still weakened Klingon empire invading the romulan empire after the destruction of Romulus, following the supernova. Losing your homework could allow for that, I would think.
homeworld*
there Martok at the end of the DS9 he will help reshape and return the stronger culture. He smart enough to bring about a respect for the more intelligent klingons like the ages past during time of the original.
Daniels from Enterprise confirmed the Klingons do eventually join the Federation
Yup, I hate that I missed that :/
The number of casualties seems a bit odd. Considering the Cardasians lost around five to six million soldiers before Damar switched sides, it's most likely the Federation-alliance has much higher casualties as well. Especially if you think of the desastrous first period of the war, in which almost an entire fleet was eradicated at the Tyra system. In "The Siege of AR-558" Kira mentioned that the losses this time are 1730 soldiers. So even if we assume that not only ground forces are seen as soldiers, but everyone fighting and let's further assume, the reports come in weekly, this would imply losses of over two million soldiers during the war. But it's not stated if these are only Federation losses. It's actually implied as we've seen only Federation officers fighting for AR-558 and Kira mentions AR-558.
Due to the large scale of the war and the fact, that most fighting took place in Federation and Klingon space (as the Romulans just attacked the Cardassian Border and the Dominion forces spread thin, we can assume the Dominion didn't start an invasion of Romulan space), it's most likely the number of casualties is much higher than just some onehundredthousand soldiers.
So this would mean the Klingons had much higher casualties than just twohundrethousand soldiers. I tend to say, due to their warlike attitude and their disgrace of retreat, their casualties may double or even tripe the Federation losses.
The numbers pulled were from legitimate sources, I'll be doing a video at the end to further investigate this and look at other losses. I'm fairly confident that klingon and romulan numbers are accurate (these numbers are pretty consistent in canon) - but federation numbers could be low. The numbers are split among the powers and not combined/
In the long term the only hope for the Klingons is to join the Federation. The Federation basically keeps the Empire going post war through economic and military support anyway so they may as well just join.
Per the Time agent in Enterprise, They do. Which makes sense. I agree that the Klingons focus to much on the military - which is why they need the federation to sustain them.
Klingon Empire come back STRONGER THEN EVER
i think the klingons would become a part of the federation, and i think it is inevitable. i believe that the klingons in an attempt to rebuild would join th federation with their warriors surving the federations newly milliterized starfleet manning the ships that patrolled the dominion and cardassian borders after the war and may even have been kept as shock troops in the event of a war with the romulans.
The Cardassian EMPIRE was the adversary during the Dominion War. The Cardassian UNION was the government that replaced the empire when Cardassia was defeated. It was a civilian run government run by civilians, not the militaristic state that entered the war.
The Cardassian union was called the cardassian union since the times of tng
It's a shame that we are just getting prequels now. We will probably never know how things turn out for the Klingon Empire from an official source. I do like the Klingon Empire simply becoming "The Empire" in Star Trek Online which rebuilt itself by integrating other warrior races and merging their resources. Alone, the Klingon Empire would have just crumbled to dust.
Klingons valued heroics over victory.
+jakemonster001 don't know i would agree..maybe honor...which is different
I believe that the Empire will survive. Yes it will look different and any up risers should be supported by the Federation being that the chancellor and his ambassador is a Starfleet officer. Any rebel uprisings the Federation would help to support. But ultimately the moral values Martok and word would help to restore honor.
I agree. In Canon they say Starfleet actually joins the federation as well.
With Martok as leader, and Kahless as Emperor the Empire would have purged it's corruption, and began rebuilding again. I don't see their empire as being destroyed. It would become stronger than it had been in centuries.
In Enterprise, temporal agent Daniels flat out tells Archer that the Klingons will be in the Federation in the 26th century. So, it is not really that unlikely. It is canon.
..indeed
Try to remember that Worf killed Galron almost immediately after that speech from Dax.
Well..some theorize sisko ordered him to..
Ezri used to be Jadzia, so I think it was her rebuke that pushed Worf over the edge. Duty to Starfleet and duty to the Empire kept Worf torn, so in the end it was really a personal thing.
I think it would be interesting if Klingons in the future just abandoned a concept of an empire and became a "Warrior/ Mecenary" race. Instead of risking it all as they did so many times before just allow their society to become extremly decentralized and seek out all the countless little wars to seek glory and gold as it were.
I think it would make a lot of sense if Klingons simply realized trying to hold an empire together is silly at least for them and instead of a ruling councile they simply follow their House becoming lil mini space kingdoms unto themselves, coming together occasionally if neded such as if their homeworld was threatned or some such.
I wonder if K'mpec had ruined what could have been a klingon renaissance under Chancellor Azetbur.
I agree, the Klingon Empire shouldn't be able to survive.
One possibility is that the Klingons join the Federation but the most realistic would be that it falls.
Per the series Enterprise.. The Klingons do join the Federation.
True.
Half a million casualties for an interstellar empire would be minuscule. There are probably tens of billions of Klingons at the least, probably over 100 billion.
Sure.. So we would combine that with other wars and more importantly the corruption issues
I think the Klingons would adventurely join the Federation. I think that pretty much both Alpha and Beta quadrants would have been known as Federation space.
This is said in enterprise. actually, that they join at some point.
The Klingon Empire is lucky it never split into 2 like the Roman Empire.
True, or into multiple fiefdoms..
Then it becomes a Geo-Galactic Political situation then maybe a proxy war.
Federation backs one side, Romulans back another maybe even the Cardassians take a shot at it.
That's 1 thing Star Trek never really tackled like it was afraid to dip it's toe into it.
In the comic "Countdown to Darkness" (Kelvin Timeline) the Klingons were giving an alien race their weaponry while the stranded corrupted captain was giving the other side of the alien race Starfleet weapons and equipment.
dude, that would be cool ! Non-ridge Klingons vs ridged Klingons :D
Tbh, the Cardassians and the Romulans would be too weak, and have bigger fish to fry than splitting the Klingon Empire.
Cardassia would become like a post-WW2 Germany, a regional power, that's focused on righting wrongs.
Romulus would be too busy dealing with the aftermath of Shenzon, and Romulus being destroyed.
Romulan Empire is likely to split into 2, one favouring closer ties with the Federation and Vulcan, and the other wanting to keep the status quo - anti Federation, plotting and scheming.
I don't know that I agree with that. The Romulan Star Empire - immediately after the war - probably had the best chance of getting cardassian territory.
Have they ever stated in canon, that the Empire lost 1/3rd of it's fleet before the Dominion War?
I can't remember.
It's stated once or twice in DS9. I'll see if I can find the episode for you.
With respect, I think you are misremembering things. In Way of the Warrior, Dax said the Klingons dedicated a third of their military to invading Cardassia.
I am definitively not on this. Its stated in canon that a 1/3rd of the fleet was lost in the Cardassian-Klingon-Federation Conflict. This is one thing I did look up. This was done from a story telling perspective to show how insidious the dominion was and to have the 'good guys' severely weakened.
Canon or not , if the Klingons dedicated 1/3 of their fleet to invade Cardassia and they arrived at DS 9 after getting expelled from Cardassia with ships (part of the 1/3 based on reasoning) then obviously they didn't lose 1/3 .... they may have lost most of the 1/3 but that isn't all of them .
Referring to Joey's comment, I think despite the loses endured during the Klingon-Cardassian War, and Klingon-Federation War, and the Dominion War, the Klingon Empire would survive under the strong leadership of Chancellor Martok and Ambassador Worf. I also see with the Romulan Star Empire on the brink of collapse after the destruction of Romulus by the supernova, the Klingons would annex Romulan space into their empire, possibly giving birth to a new "Klingon-Romulan Alliance". What few Romulans that were left that did not reunify with the Vulcans would integrate into the Klingon Empire. The Klingon-Romulan Alliance would become a stronger ally of the Federation and yes, maybe one day join it. Overall, I do not think the Klingon Empire is down and out of the fight.
Section 31 would disagree with you ;)
The survival of the Kingon Empire depends on the Klingons confronting the problems cause by corruption. There were some times when the Klingon Empire was on the edge of destruction. The video was right about the Federation's assistance of the Klingon Empire had delayed its decline. The Klingon Empire does allow its subject races self government. One of the mistakes of the Klingon Empire is focus on placing harsh conditions on its subject races. In TOS's episode Errand of Mercy, the Klingons place harsh rules on the people of Organia.. If the Klingons work with their subject races, most of the subject races are likely willing to work with the Klingons. The Earth equivalent of the Klingon Empire was the ancient Persian Empire.. The Persian Empire had allow its subject to have a lot of freedoms. As long as the subject nations pay tribute to the Persian Empire, the ruler of the Empire will not interfere with the nations. The Persian Empire was defeated by the Greeks. The Klingon Empire is more likely evolved into a Federal state like the Federation. The Federation has respected the rights of the Klingon Empire to rule itself. Captain Archer was only interested in helping the Klingons during Earth's first contact with them. Doctor McCoy had stated that there were a lot of mistakes made which had cause the Klingon to mistaken that the Human Race was a true enemy. The Federation will rather let the Klingon Empire to continue to exist. The Klingons do need time to evolved into a les militaristic race. In a way, the Klingons will continue to be a warrior race. While the Klingons may not want to become members of the Federation, they are welcome by the federations as allies. Primary as a result of the Dominion War, the Klingons are starting to notice the limits of their Military ways. They are starting realized the truth that cooperation with the Federation and the Romulans is better than seeing the two other powers as enemies and rival powers.
Victory is Life
#qaplah
long live the empire!
I am trying to help.
one thing about the Klingon Cardassian was is how did the klingons get to Cardassian space it on the other side of UFP space?
Yea, The map that is considered Canonical seems odd. The only two explanations I would have is either A) The Treaty with the federation allows unfettered travel (or they cloaked) or.. Space is 3D not 2D.. so they could have traveled around.
It always seemed interesting that the Klingon military didn't fix the problem it was caused by praxis it seems they could have found a way to do it themselves
What if after reforms the Klingons became something like the mandalorians in star wars (more the legends version), a sort of warrior based federation of different races, maybe even the military arm of the federation.
That would be cool to see and honestly is kind of what they did in STO. Maybe we'll see that if they ever do a series Post-VOY
Well even if people want to discount that in ENT it was stated in the future the klingons had joined the federation. I think it would be an forgone conclusion. Their military would be in shambles and their economy was built around supporting the military and resources. This would be taxed to the breaking point during the dominion war and the long recovery would do little to help. Meanwhile the Federation would help some but with commitments to cardassia which would be in far worse shape their focus would lay there. The corruption of the high council time after time would do little to help. Having a good military man in-charge does nothing to help him run the peace or put in reforms.
My guess is the klingons would slowly collapse or at best stagnate into a minor power. No longer would they be a equal or semi equal to the federation/romulans. More along the lines of the Breen at best or maybe even less influential. My guess is they eventual see the writing on the wall and see no choice but to accept federation membership. Heck by the time of when the temporal cold war takes place the Klingons might have not even had an one government and the different worlds just jumped ships one at a time to the federation.
The point i am trying to make is i think the Klingon Empire was far past the point of being saved. Even if Martok was a great leader to go down in Klingon history the damage done in the events leading up to the war,the war and its aftermath dealt the last blows. All he could do even as a perfect leader is buy the empire time decades maybe even century but only limited time. Maybe if the Klingon civil war had been stopped before it happened and its underlying causes removed before they became an issue the empire could have made it under careful leadership post dominion war.
But in truth like the video said the start was back in TOS. Had real reforms started after the peace talks they would have had more than enough time but it is clear they didn't. Hell without the Enterprise C stepping in at Khitomer the Klingons would have ended up at war with the federation again. So clearly little reform was done. Now you might ask " if they were winning this alternate timeline war clearly they are better off". I put that more on the federation being unprepared than the klingons being in much better shape. It is very likely the Federation clearly let its military fall behind before the war. As we see the Galaxy class is no where near as effective as an Dominion War Galaxy class. With the cloak it would allow klingons to hit at key starfleet production centers with little to no warning then retreat. Somthing the Dominion would have been unable to do for reference. This would force starfleet to have more ships guarding key production centers more than normal. Less ships to fight on the front and you get the idea. But i have rambled on for a bit so yeah lol.
After the Dominion war, the Klingons were nothing as far as an Empire was concerned. The Romulans were eating up the spoils and probably took back what they lost from the Klingons centuries before. The Federation had to rely on a union between them and the Klingons also to keep the Romulans at bay. My guess is it became a survival necessity to join in a permanent partnership to stay in power on both sides. The Romulans were a dirty underhanded player in all aspects.The Breen continued their alliance with the Romulans hoping to gain more space. The Fernengy would have had to join the alliance or risk hostile take over. I wonder if the Dominion would have been asked to become part of the alliance in reward they would be weaned off the drugs that were controlling them. The shape shifters were of course exiled and made to reform those races they corrupted including both races they used as well as countless others they dominated all because they hated solids.
The Klingons and Maquis were ALLIES!, right??
towards the last part of the maquis' existance ..yes.. but that was out of convenience.
Okay subscribed, liked your frank review of that shit storm Discovery and figured I'd give your other vids a try, very entertaining and well done. Also, as much as I despise the idea of Ezri Dax, her comments on the Klingon Empire of TNG era is exactly what my friends and I had been saying about them since the Civil War the Durass's and Tasha 2.0 started in TNG.
Ahh cool. Thanks for checking out the channel. Always feel free to give your opinions and thoughts..even if we disagree. You will find that I enjoy a good debate.. And try to be active in responses
Awesome, too many tubers don't add the personal touch to their channels. And a series about star trek is just going to invite discussion. Looking forward to future debates.
Yea, I hate that about the medium. Yup.. Always open to ideas on future series to - so don't be bashful on that either.
Ever play Star Trek Online? I guess it’s sort of canon with the prime timeline. It takes place a couple decades after the Dominion War. And according to a time travel mission, the Klingons joined the Federation in the 25th century, as did the Romulan Republic (new romulan gvmt) around the same time.
It is not consider Canon anymore, alas. But yea, I have actually played it. And we know the Klingons join definitively due to Enterprise Series.. It seemed like in that quest (If I am thinking of the same one) - it wasn't just the romulans but basically everyone had joined the federation..
STO takes place in 2409, about 35 years after the Dominion War. After a brief period of internal strife, the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans form a military alliance to combat the Iconian threat. The three powers are so badly depleted after this conflict that the alliance basically becomes permanent, and they become something of a galactic peacekeeping force. In the current year of the game they have not yet become a political union, but it is clear that the bonds of friendship are becoming strong enough to give the idea serious consideration in the not-so-distant future.
i can't remember where I read it, but someplace (maybe memory alpha, not sure) that by the 27th century, the Klingons join the federation, but i don't know if thats canon or not.
The only thing I could find on that was from Startrek Online.. I couldn't find anything that was Memory Alpha, or even Memory Beta that wasn't pure Fan fiction. That's the only reason I said 'maybe' or 'possibly'. I think that the Cardassian Union and Klingon Empire ultimately becoming apart of the Federation is a very likely and reasonable outcome - but there's simply not any 'solid' canon that supports it.
hmm, yeah, wasn't sure where i saw it, so was pretty sure it wasn't going to be canon, but thought it worth mentioning. I could see the Klingons joing the Federation eventually.
Oh wait, I think I've just recalled where I *heard* it lol
It was mentioned in the Enterprise episode with the time travelling Daniels, that said that in the future he was from, the Klingons had joined the federation in the 27th century! Still not really canon as I think that future is in question, post the events of Enterprise.
I like to pretend enterprise is glorified fan fiction :p I honestly forgot about that..don't remember it but it sounds like something enterprise would do..darn..would have included that had I realized..
I'm scouring around for a clip for it now, as I can't recall the specific episode it was spoken about in. and I agree entirely, Enterprise was pretty dire. Except it's last season, which showed the wasted potential of the previous three seasons.
+Lore Reloaded I think it might have been in the episodes, either Shockwave parts 1 or 2, when Daniels takes Archer to the future and explains what the Federation is and that the Klingons join at some specific date. Just can't find a clip of it on youtube. Might have to dig my dvd's out as this is going to drive me nuts now.
I'm pretty sure it's canon that the Klingons eventually joined the Federation.
Yup. The Time Agent said so in Enterprise, kicking myself that I left that out.
Well STO which is as canon as we're going to get for a long time with Post-voyager material pretty much clears up what happens to the Klingons. Really the Dominion war was a good way for the klingons to remove their super antiquated ships(D7s and the such) and build a modern fleet. Look at the "Federation Fleet" at Wolf 359 and the Mars "defense force". Horribly old crappy ships. Now look 7 years later when Voyager. Pretty much a totally modern task force is just sitting in the Sol system. Big difference. With the Klingons aided by the feddies, i think the next 20 years of peace is more the enough for the Klingons to rebuild.
While I agree I think its as close as we are going to get to story telling for a while. A lot of it is technically not considered solid Canon anymore by the sources that be. It's a long the same lines as books. Which I kind of get, but I don't. If it's the only game in town - let them tell the stories and stand behind it. The STO Klingons, as far as I'm aware on the story line, actually did follow that path though. Came close to destruction and got their way out of it much stronger.
WAIT! The Federation ATTACKED the Klingon Empire while they were attacking DS9? I thought this was an ISOLATED INCIDENT that only cost the Empire some ships and the Federation basically nothing (a few Photon-Torpedos!)
As for the Klingon Empire after the Dominion War: Spok thought they would die, too and they recovered and stayed one of the prime military powers because the Federation gave them time to recover (the Federation isn't willing to kick people while they are down, despite the fact that that galaxy would be saver without the militaristic Klingon Empire (or the Romulan one for that matter!)) so NO, they'd recover IMHO (even a tenth of their full fleet would make sure nobody (except the Federation and the Romulans - who also lost tons of ships in the Dominion War and didn't have as much shipyard capacity as the Federation, not to mention that they weren't as innovativ etc.) would attack them and they had more ships left (probably 40-50% of the original Klingon Fleet before the Klingon/Cardassian War because they probably built new ships during the war as well!)