StarTrek Dominion War: Wolf 359 and a Demilitarized Starfleet
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- We'll be taking a quick detour from breaking down Empires to discuss consistent comments that have risen about Starfleet and if it has been demilitarized. We we also be addressing when Starfleet truly started down its trek of militarization which is after the battle of Wolf 359. Stick with us while we continue on about the StarTrek Dominion War.
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The Federation suffered enormous casualties because of the naivete of reducing their military capability. The U.S. did the same during the 1920's, then comes along WW2 and massive casualties were suffered because of a lack of military strength. You want brains and brawn, not one or the other.
I think they learned that lesson the hard way.
Undiscovered country also shows a different Starfleet .... When the captains meet at the beginning, one woman captain asks if Starfleet would be mothballed !
One admiral answers with something like "I'm sure our exploratory division would be untouched !"
Peace saves lives but allows for complacentness, war sacrifices lives, but augments technology..... Hard choices !!!
If you want peace, prepare for war. This motto could've saved them if they had remembered it.
I agree that Starfleet isn't a military. I mean, they made that kinda clear when the newly founded Federation disbanded the Military Assault Command Operations (MACOs) in 2161 (1 year after the Earth-Romulan War). Apparently, despite the fact the Klingons and Xindi were still out there and despite the fact that Romulans could just decide to attack them again, the Federation thought that nobody would threaten them ever again and hence, there is no need for a single unified military (how the Vulcans thought that this was logical is beyond me).
The Federation disbanding the MACOs and making Starfleet responsible for defense is like if the United States disbanded the US Armed Forces and made the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) responsible for defending US territory.
Well, they learned that lesson..alas..
Trekkie down under Damn good point but remember star fleet has SECTION 31 now I know that's not military but look what they pulled out their ass if you go by the Kelvin timeline
I heard somewhere (I think it was from the non-canon serial novel "Starfleet year one") that after the Earth-Romulan war that there was a "battle" for the purpose of star fleet was between "the Boy Scouts " and "the butterfly collectors" for the ultimate purpose of the Federation Star fleet" .... The Boy Scouts wanted to be prepared for another war, while the butter fly collectors wanted to explore strange new worlds. The butter fly collectors won resulting in a demilitarized exploratory star fleet...
Trekkie down under yh. It wasnt very smart
Parrish Pittman EL Information Broker what most people don't realize is that the federation has the Guardian of Forever. Which without a doubt is being used by section 31. So they have the ultimate intell asscet ever.
Either way you were more right than wrong; Starfleet was not intended to be a military, but it became one out of necessity; initially in the Earth-Romulan war, which bought them peace. They made concessions to the Romulans and scaled down their military, until the Four Years' War with the Klingons between Discovery and TOS, when they built military ships once again.
In TOS, they were a hybrid scientific and military organization because of the tensions with the Klingons, but they banked on the hope that they could keep exploring without focusing their energy on the Klingons. They had war once again, and militarized during the Movie era; but at the end of the Movie era, the Federation had made an alliance with the Klingons, and their main enemy was gone.
This I think is ESSENTIAL to viewing TNG era Federation: The Federation was now an ally of the Klingon Empire, the most powerful military in the southern galaxy.
It created an era of nearly unbroken peace for the Federation. There are really only 2 wars to consider: The Tzenkethi and the Cardassians, and there are certain things about each of these that describe the era between the movies and TNG.
-The Cardassian war was the older conflict, ending 10 years before TNG but not coming to a complete end until after the Battle of Wolf 359. The Cardassians are clearly more exhausted by this twenty year conflict than the Federation. I think that the Federation COULD have won this war, but they didn't see the point in committing to a regional conflict at the very edge of their frontier. This defines Federation military doctrine for any number of conflicts for them: Build really tough ships with just enough firepower to go toe to toe, but not overdo it. Outlast over overpower. The Federation just wasn't interested in conquering the Cardassians, they were interested in protecting their colonists. In fact, the Federation didn't even accept the terms of the treaty until AFTER Wolf 359, when the Federation decided, basically, "Screw it, we don't care, we'll sign it as is, we have more important things to deal with."
-The Tzenkethi came later, probably in the late 2350's. I am making an assumption based on Star Trek Online information so it's probably not canonical, but it's interesting to consider: Martok was a veteran of the Tzenkethi-Federation war, and was known as a butcher among the Tzenkethi. If you accept this, then it shows that the Federation and the Klingons fought side by side. With the Klingons fighting with them, then the Federation realized that, with their help, they could rely on this alliance as a means of defending themselves against something as serious and major as the Tzenkethi.
If you don't accept this (which I completely understand, STO is a hot mess) then the fact that the Tzenkethi are around but much smaller in size than the Federation supports the same idea that the Federation just wanted to show the Tzenkethi and the Cardassians-at roughly the same time-that they couldn't win against the Federation, and the Federation didn't care to crush them. Ultimately, diplomacy won out in both conflicts, with the Federation more or less pushing for the status quo.
Remember ST: Insurrection? The villain has a monologue about how the Federation is tired and it's time has passed.
Yup.. He's apart of the Son'a ..who was a dominion ally. On the fence if I am going to do a video on them..not a lot there...but I remember the monoluge..
DAMMIT MAN! I THOUGHT WE STAR TREK GEEKS HAD AGREED TO JUST FORGET ABOUT INSURRECTION?!
JUST LIKE THAT OTHER BIG SCREEN TIME WASTER STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER!
And anything JJ VERSE!
You are forgetting Captain Jellico who treated his ship like a military vessel. It annoyed the crew particularly Riker except Data. Remember they didn't send the Enterprise to the Cardassian border war. Heck Miles O'Brian had more than 200 combat encounters during his career. The military types may be a minority in fleet but they are there. Probably in Starfleet Intelligence and Starfleet Security. The Vulcan's has the V'Shar as an intelligence agency while Andorians still has the Imperial Guard if we go by Enterprise's Mirror Universe episode.
I actually didn't forget Jellico. I had him in the original script - but I felt like it didn't add enough to the conversation. I could have been wrong on that bent. The cardassians were never really shown to be any type of threat to the Federation during TNG. The federation outstripped them in technology, being able to see what the ship names were when the cardassians couldn't for them, their weaker ships being described as 'quite the military juggernauts'.. That doesn't detract that the wars that happened - I just don't think the Cardassians were on the level of the Romulans.. or even Ferengi. I also found the evidence with Jellico to only support my points. Jellico was a pariah.. he was looked down upon. I agree there would be a minority of soldier-types.. but it seems like they were the exception.
I have often thought that the wait for a Star Trek in the 25th Century would be easier if a series that ran parallel to TNG was produced from the perspective of a smaller but powerful "Starfleet" security Fleet. Footage and deleted scenes from the TNG era shows could be used to weave it into the timeline. They could even further develop the more beloved story arcs from this perspective such as adding a covert battle between Wolf and Earth or covert strikes in Dominion space during the Dominion war. Of course it would be written to allow the use of the Pegasus cloak. ; )
Jelico was a relic of sorts. However in spite of him SF wasn't. SF was in lazy mode, I mean they made a treaty with a clearly inferior power they were only using one limb to fight. (For Fed Cardassian war wasn't a minor war)
Jellico was an exception rather than a rule.
The Dominion pushed the federation to the living edge also. But for Rom and his ingenious idea of self replicating mines. Thousands of Jem Hader ships would have poured through the black hole and overrun the quadrant. All honour to The Founders.
And the founders would have gotten away with it to!
Daniel Anderson
Wormhole, not blackhole, but that minor mistake aside...i totally agree about the mines being brilliant!!!
Einstein-Rosen Bridge. When I read "Black Hole" I was like:'DUDE. NOTHING COMES OUT A BLACK HOLE.'
Star Trek The Undiscovered Country at the beginning when Starfleet HQ met: We talking about mothballing the Starfleet (and Star Bases)? No the exploration wing would remain
NCC 1701 was a Heavy Cruiser
NCC 1701 D was Explorer designation but even the Klingons and the Romulans feared the Galaxy Class (hence the Romulans specifically counted it)
NCC 1701 E: A Battleship
1701-E was a titan and built to fight. The Galaxy Class was definetly stout but not a ship of war. The Romulans probably could have taken on the federation during the ERA of TNG.
1701-E was indeed a titan as well as a beautiful ship. Also true with the pre Dominion War Galaxy Class era ships, but what about post Dominion War Galaxy Class (I think they were designated Galaxy X Class)?
Every time a character on Star Trek says they aren't a military I roll my eyes. Your floating around space with enough fire power to destroy a planet.
I think it's just the federation selling the exploration kinda like the US military "see the world, join the navy"..they just leave out the part were you may get blown up.
+Adam Lemus yea..seems like it
I realy agree with you. Starfleet changed over the years and there is nothing wrong with that. That is life!
Indeed.. Its the way things are..
If you don't have a military, something or someone will always take advantage. That's the rule of the jungle.
Bullys like to pick on the weake.
Markus Weißner and having a big ass advanced war fleet is also expensive. All the wages and maintenance would cause an economic collapse
Aserkill. No money, no wages.
Starfleet is vast and they simply could not have had the time needed to assemble a proper fleet at wolf. Its logical to assume that they pulled together every ship in the sector it whether it was ready or not.
They have it pretty easy compared to the Imperium of Man or the Time War Timelords.
Definetly.. Horrors some couldn't even imagine
BadwolfGamer but the imperium of man is almost solely a military organisation every ship is armed with lancers that cripple multiple ships. The imperium’s only problem is the insane amounts of micro managing that the leaders have to do. All they need to do is stream line their decision making and everything would be fine. The time lords are fucked cos they have been at war for like 300 years and they have no military left. Not that they got soft.
I like to see the Federation as an analogue of WH40K humankinds's Stellar Exodus and Dark Age of Technology. Humankind progresses on many scales to colonize parts of the galaxy and spread on even more worlds, coexisting and interacting with other populous alien civilizations like the Eldar. Just after all the catastrophes in WH40K lore a whole bunch of these planets were isolated for millenia and developed their many different human or nearhuman offshoots (mutants?), which where eventually reconquered by an Imperium of Man, relying on outdated but mass producable and tried technologies.
dandyl1on Yeah. 40K is a GrimDark hellscape of a universe through and through. The exact opposite of Gene Roddenberry's vision of a Utopian, Xenophillic society
It was that way until Robute returned, in the 160 years since he's come back he removed several High Lords of Terra, did away with the auntonomy that was the planetary governor and has refocused on rebuilding the Realm of Ultramar. So prior to Robute yes the whole thing was a terrible mess. However even in the 31st Millenium even Primarch Horus did at least attempt diplomacy with Xenos species. There were some that were just out and out anathema to the idea of coexistence and just used humanity as food. Others like the Orks care nothing for peace but just continued warfare. There actually is an Alliance between the Eldar and the Imperium but neither side makes use of it because neither side wants to be the first one to diplomatically blink (don't want to appear weak) The Blood Angels and Necrons even fought side by side to stop a Tyranid invasion of a planet. So while the lore has made out humanity to be an often highly xenophobic bunch (not without good reason) those Humanity can work with they do. These would also include the Tau and Kroot.
the first few seasons of TNG show us an ideal future we would all love to have until the universe reminds us the viewers how naive the Federation was prior to that point even Gainan (Whoopie Goldberg) says perhaps in a very long time humanity and the Borg could have a dialouge of some kind, but at the moment of first contact to the Borg we are just a resource to them. The Warhamer 40K verse is perhaps humanity when they've finally been pushed to their limit to be reminded to always keep a weapon ready.
Starfleet is like NASA.
Not supposed to be a military organization.
But the Space Shuttle was a military vehicle. NASA cancelled the Mars landing in 1985 to build a Spaceship that could bring satellites for the US Army into orbit.
Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were - like Kirk (but unlike Picard) military guys that work for a civilian agency.
It's amazing that star fleet lasted that long based purely on exploration only.
don't all nations go through this? They get comfortable with their power until someone punches them in the face. I keep thinking of the Maginot Line and how the Germans bypassed it. The truth is that Starfleet could handle its neighbors with what they had. The Romulans were not in contact and the Klingons, their greatest enemy was now their ally. Any nation would grow complacent. Then came the Borg and punched them.
Yea, stagnation and the ending of the cold war really solidified them in that.
As ever, a convincing argument and analysis. As I said before, you can see the Federation's social and political progress as cyclical: they have the tech base that allows most of the population to realize their ideals; border / frontier areas may be more dangerous, but overall there are prolonged periods of peaceful expansion. Then a significant threat (the Romulans, the Borg, the Dominion) arises and shatters that complacency. At a high material and socio-political cost, the Federation militarizes and copes with the crisis, but when enough time passes, that militarism is mostly discarded.
I think it's both saddening and encouraging that the Federation is so committed to its ideals of peace and advancing knowledge; they could easily become a far more militarized state (and in at least one timestream did: the Terran Empire) but don't seem to have the desire or will. This leaves them vulnerable to the next major threat, but also avoids the rigidity and corruption of a more aggressive, authoritarian society.
I wonder if the dominion war was the straw that broke the camel's back though.. I doubt Starfleet would ever return to a pre wolf 359 mentality
That's a point. The Dominion did follow the Borg pretty quickly. That could well lead to a more sustained militaristic mindset, following the shock of two such major threats close together.
And those in the Federation who advocated a more prepared military would clearly have a point. Space is big and potential threats were proven to be relatively common: it would be a question of when, not if, the next one would appear.
Yea, I think these two events would irreparably change the opinion of the generation that was in the dominion war and many after..
wright534 agreed! Starfleet going dark was necessary. Based on what you've said to which I agree, sadly its a damned if you or damned if you don't. Then there is always SECTION 31, the Kelvin timeline showed us that section 31 not playing around for Shit.
True on all points, agreed on just about everything. But let's also be a little more fair, the Federation though not capable of waging a galactic prolonged war, was perfectly fine defending themselves from Alpha quadrant sourced threats. The Borg was unlike anything ever encountered prior to Q's meddling to the point were all their advanced technology couldn't conceive any counter measures.
Plus with tenuous relations with other major Alpha quadrant players like the Romulans and Cardassians, further weapons developments and combat capable ships by an organization as influential as the Federation could trigger another galactic arms race.
WOLF359 was a major wakeup call that produced ships like the Akira and Defiant, and all in time for the Dominion Wars. But what kills me is that officially, Picard and the Ent-D were the first to encounter the Borg, what happened to their intel when Archer with the NX-Ent encountered the Borg? Makes me wonder. Perhaps Section 31 erased all info on that encounter and saw a chance to advance Starfleet as a military in the wake of Picard's encounter.
I some what question that with some empires. Certainly they were more powerful than the Cardassians. However, we see where the Romulans and Ferengi seemingly are able to outwit or even cripple the Galaxy Class ship.. The most powerful ship of the fleet at the time. I honestly wonder if they could have won a war with the Romulans at that point.
Lore Reloaded
In an all out shooting war, possibly but I think losses would be tremendous. Romulan Warbirds numbers seemed vast and Starfleet only fielded 4 or 5 Galaxies of a planned 9 IIRC. Which brings another point, intel. Romulan were isolationists, enigmatic, and boarderlined xenophobic so the number of operational combat capable ships were undeterminable at best. I don't think even the Klingons would have risked an all out conflict without some solid numbers and intel. Cardassians proved to be almost as crafty as Romulans, didn't most of their advancement come from espionage?
And something I was really curious about was were Starfleet stood on autonomous tech like out current day UAV Predators for defensive or combat roles. Romulans proved it possible and it's practically standard practice of any major world power today.
Well Archer's encounter with the Borg is largely due to their interference with the timeline in First Contact, so it's not out of the picture on why we hadn't heard of them before.
trivipesnipe
And that's what bugs me, no follow-up after that point. Archer and T'Pol theorized a potential future invasion by this enemy that I believe coincides with the Battle of Sector 01, then full stop. I highly doubt something like this wouldn't have shown up on Section31 radar especially given that one of their agents was instrumental in defeating them with close encounter details and first hand reports on their defensive and offensive abilities.
Food for thought.
Remember SF tends to follow contemporary tech trends; TNG and it's followup shows (DS9, Voyager) are 20-30 years old now, and back then drones were not very prominent in warfare, they were mainly used in recon and flying targets for weapons practice. Few if any were used as actual weapon platforms.
Prometheus from Voyager? That's military
...which was...wait for it...post wolf 359 And during the dominion war
I think the most telling two conversations on this topic comes from BOBW and DS9. In BOBW, Admiral Hanson admits they had to devote an entire division to simply trying to figure out how to deal with the Borg because Enterprises encounter with them was a nasty wake-up call.
Then in DS9, when the Defiant showed up at the station Kira was surprised and said specifically, "I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships." To which Sisko confirmed her belief but said that the Borg had forced Starfleet to realize that they needed pure warships that were capable of pure combat.
An interesting parallel to the change in tone and uniforms from Star Trek: the Motion Picture to The Wrath of Khan.
Yea.. I've noticed that TOS shows and movies were a lot more... Real feeling? Down to earth..
And as Picard said, "Maybe Q did the right thing for the wrong reasons."
Guinan: "How so?"
Picard: "Maybe what we needed is a kick in our complacency. To prepare us for what truly lies ahead."
I think that the transition is especially apparent if you go directly from Next Gen to the movies. The Galaxy class really was a floating community: families aboard, lots of creature comforts, and plenty of mass given to science equipment. On the other hand, the Sovereign class definitely resembles a warship with her tighter corridors, improved defensive systems, and phaser rifles that actually make some amount of sense (seriously, those TNG phaser rifles).
I think the big difference between pre- and post-Dominion War starfleet is that Pre-war Starfleet is really focused around peace-keeping. It's kind of like comparing the Coast Guard and the Navy.
Excellent Video.
I have read around this issue a lot to gain some understanding of the confused use of name of the agency Kirk and Co were working for (Starfleet Navy or UESPA - United Earth Space Probe Agency). How it was retconed was the following:
In 2065 UESPA - United Earth Space Probe Agency took over the functions of NASA
In c. 2140 Starfleet Navy took over the functions of ADC (Aerospace Defense Command), these being the successor to NORAD - the North American Aerospace Defense Command.
The Earth-Romulan Wars of the late 2150’s sees Starfleet Navy integrate Special Ops training modeled on MACO (Military Assault Command Operations).
Starfleet isn't a military before the dominion war but after the dominion war they were a very effective military force.
I think your spot on with the starfleet millitary question
You overlook the Cardassian Border War in this video... it came up often on TNG and DS9 and it was not depicted as a picnic...
I have always wondered why there were so few ships at wolf 359, it must have been that they were the only ships that were actually combat ready.
I think If I lived in the Federation I would be demanding a new military branch, let Star Fleet be the ambassadors and the civilian cruse ships. But create an actual military branch, Sisco mentions the marines in one episode, perhaps they need to be expanded, and given their own ships.
I agree with most of what said about star fleet changing to a non-military organization, but I'd like to add that I think the best analogy would be the coast guard. Their ships are equipped with weaponry, but most of the time they are performing customs, escort, and rescue duties, and some of the biggest and most advanced ships are dedicated to research or humanitarian aid.
As for star fleet only being able to muster 40 ships for wolf359, and general low class of those ships, I don't think that's so much a matter of ineptitude as logistics. They had a very limited time to gather ships in area that would not expect an attack without significant advance warning. If, say, a massive battle ship suddenly showed up off the coast of Virginia and would be in range of Washington, D.C. within 12 hours (and for some reason aircraft were not a viable option), you probably wouldn't get a lot of top notch Navy attack vessels. You'd get harbor patrol crafts, some civilian volunteers and conscripts, and maybe some old ships that were partially mothballed. Basically, the dregs of the largest military maritime organization in the world. I think it's the same principle with the ships at Wolf359- anything that could be quickly pulled out of storage and put on the fighting line on short notice. The more advanced, militarily capable ships were off patrolling the borders and on assignment at the far ends of the Federation and couldn't get there in time.
"ineptitude" is a good way to put it.
Remember Star Trek: Into Darkness?
In the first part of the movie, the bad guy managed to steal a starship, fly up to starfleet headquarters, start blasting into the window of a really important meeting - and get away with it. Best of all, this happened very shortly after someone bombed an important facility nearby. You'd think they'd increase security after a terrorist attack in their most important capital but nope, nobody cared.
Makes me somewhat understand why the "evil admiral" had the USS Vengeance built.
Starfleet severely lacked a dedicated combat ship (and whatever else you need to be able to fight properly). Too bad he got too emotional and went for using the initial prototype to pick a fight with the klingons rather than to produce more of these bad boys to have something to protect the federation with.
Though he isn't innocent from that "ineptitude" either, considering how he had a model of his top-secret dreadnought standing in his office for everyone to see (and how some random shuttle was able to fly into the top secret shipyard building said dreadnought).
Thanks man. To me this explains why in DS9 you can see older ships like Excelsior and Miranda fighting alone side the new influx of warships like Akira, Steamrunner, Norway and Saber
What always bother me was the lack of Sovereign class ships. The Real life explanation is Paramount wanted to keep its special snowflake class and didn't want DS9 to have it. But how fun would it have been to see a sovereign in DS9? I mean we can explain that the events that occured either had sovereigns we didn't see, or they weren't present..but still..would have been fun to see them.
I think you nailed it. Remember that Starfleet has fought in multiple wars against Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians before tng even started. Mile's Obrien was a soldier before he was an engineer and fought in over 200 military engagements. The Federation's "military" dominance was largely a factor of its technological superiority and ingenuity. Romulan and Klingon ships were purpose-built for war and yet never seemed to have the edge. The Borg and later the Dominion were both more advanced then them and *that* put the pressure on Starfleet to do more than show off their shiny gadgets. I think a post-Dominion War Federation is likely to be a power house the likes of which the galaxy hasn't seen since the Iconians.
I agree, it would be interesting to see if they attempted to down size.
In TNG, Voyager and DS9 it was mentioned in several episodes the Federation was well known for its superior shielding and hull technology, as well as warp propulsion. Given that Star Fleet was primarily an Exploratory/Expeditionary Force, this build philosophy seems to indicate they preferred ships which could take a beating and retreat in order to share what was learned.
The galaxy class ship is,completely counter to this as a bird of prey could wtfmcpwn it once it's shields were rendered useless.
That's what I've always liked about star Trek: it shows what will happen when you become too passive to the idea of an outside threat that is hell bent on conquest, and to not have a defense you hopefully don't have to use.
You've brought up an excellent point that ST has never fully dealt with.
Yea.. And I doubt they can. Dollars to donuts says a lot of this is probably behind the scenes stuff
Starfleet was a military force when it needed to be but for the most, that's something that they tried to avoid!
Even to the point of almost losing a galactic war due to a focus on peace.
never said it wa smart. I seriously consider Early TNG the Neville Chamberlain era for the Federation and Starfleet.
Great video!
Author Lee Harris talks about this phenomenon in the real world in his book "Civilization and Its Enemies." Over a time of peace and civilization it's natural for people to forget the enemy... and then, the very *concept* of an enemy. An enemy, to them, is simply someone who you haven't yet reached an understanding with. Sure, Starfleet ships had defensive capabilities and had engaged in some minor squabbles such as the Cardassian Border Wars, but these were resolved ultimately through diplomacy (something that created its own problems with the Maquis) . The Romulans hadn't been heard from in decades, the Klingons were allies, all was well. It's not surprising that people like Picard and Riker would simply assume that Starfleet was not a military, because it hadn't been a real military since Kirk's time. Explore the galaxy, make new friends, and deal with the occasional spatial anomaly. That was Starfleet's mission.
In a way, this mirrors Fukuyama's "End of History" theory popular between the collapse of the Soviet Union and 9/11, the idea that liberal democracy had won out and civilization and freedom were on the inevitable rise, never to suffer a major war again. Sure, there would be minor problems and the occasional conflict, but they could be solved through reason and diplomacy.
But the enemy always surfaces. The enemy, In Star Trek starting with the Borg, is one who demands you comply and is willing to risk their own lives to force compliance. Q tries to warn Picard... "You judge yourselves against the pitiful adversaries you've encountered so far - the Romulans, the Klingons. They're nothing compared to what's waiting." He even moves things along by giving Starfleet information about the Borg (in his own way, of course, by throwing the Enterprise into an encounter with them just to show how unstoppable they are). The Borg don't want diplomacy. They don't want to live and let live, don't care about borders, don't have any grievances to be addressed. You will comply and be assimilated or you will be destroyed. They are the ENEMY, and (as you said) Starfleet was utterly incapable of fighting them. Similarly, the Dominion wanted nothing more than to conquer the Alpha quadrant. They would accept nothing less than rulership over the powers on the other side of the wormhole, and were willing to throw waves of genetically-enhanced soldier at them... and even risk the lives of the changelings themselves in order to win.
What's interesting is how quickly Starfleet and the Federation adapted when confronted with implacable enemies. They began designing new ships with the purpose of wrecking their enemies, cranking those ships out at a rate that was beyond belief, and advancing their science faster and faster. This mirrors the United States during WW2... caught woefully unprepared, with a largely wrecked Pacific fleet and not much of an army to speak of, the US went on to crank out ships, guns, transports, and other supplies at an amazing rate. The Axis were astounded at how quickly the US got into the war and was able to send supplies to the British and the USSR. They simply couldn't believe it.
In Trek, by the time of Voyager's homecoming the Federation is able to summon 18 ships in MINUTES (with 9 more nearby) when a Borg transwarp conduit forms a light year from Earth, including numerous Galaxy class ships. They might have actually learned their lesson.
tl;dr That's just a fancy way of saying you're right.
It is interesting comparing and contrasting the naivety of early TNG to the other series. During the course of the TNG to Voyager era, you definitely see a shift. That 'minor province' of war turned major really quick and it did so out of necessity. I think therefore it would be accurate to say that Starfleet is not military, but it is a paramilitary organization, which differentiates itself by being an unofficial force that's organized similar to a military. Starfleet is definitely a semi-militarized force, one organized, trained and armed as such, but is not considered a formal armed force.
I always look forward to your videos. Very in depth
I try, stay tuned.. Got the battle of wolf 359 tonight ;)
5:00 well, it actually makes sense they had trouble scraping together enough ships for a proper defense at Wolf 359. How often do you see more than one starfleet ship working or traveling together? How often do you think starfleet vessels bump into each other? I would posit the answer is not very often. The reason is because of Starfleet's mission. It's primary mission is exploration, not defense. Exploration is an activity that by necessity sends your forces out far and wide. Remember, every Enterprise so far has been on a 5 year or something mission of exploration, that's their whole assignment, just explore and occasionally do odd jobs...for five years. Exploration is about going to new places, defense is about holding familiar ones. Starfleet didn't do much in the way of defense with few exceptions, the Romulan neutral zone probably had a few dedicated patrol ships. So of course they couldn't get that many ships together in time for the battle, there wouldn't have been that many in the heart of the Federation, mainly those being constructed, repaired,, refitted, those returning from their exploratory missions, and those about to depart on their exploratory missions. This has the added downside of meaning the ships most likely to be available are older ones as there is a high chance they will have completed at least one 5 year tour. This is why we see stuff like the Miranda classes, Oberth, and even a Constitution class for some reason. You would of course also get some brand new and more advanced ships, ones either on their shakedown cruise or getting ready for it, with green crews and ships that hadn't been put through their paces. Starfleet didn't pick those ships, those were all it had available in the area. They may have pulled the Constitution class out of mothballs even out of desperation.
Yeah agreed I'd never seen the Starfleet as a military, they definitely were always explorers, just at one point they became militarised explorers from necessity, rather than their intended path, good argument for this would be captain Jonathan archer, regretting beginning exploration before all the weapon systems were installed, believing they wouldn't be necessary, and then later considered cancelling the mission and turning back having them installed, the in my opinion view their military side in a similar vein to 1700s merchant ships, fighting wasn't what they were there to do but was sometimes necessary, probably not the best analogy but you get my point.
Remember before the Dominion war they've had two years to fully mobilise, and by the way Excelsior class ships are the main stray of the Federation fleet and almost every federation ship could outgun most ships. You see this often in TNG, the enterprise often takes down most enemies with single salvos
I would disagree with this as we do see the Galaxy Class - the flag ship..the best ship they have.. Get owned by both Ferengi ships, birds of prey, and warbirds.
Lore Reloaded one the Feringi ship had a special weapon similar to the Breen one, the Bird of Prey was again a special case their shields whose less and they knew right where to hit them and they've never actually fought a Warbird
The Defiant was a direct example of the militarization of star fleet after Wolf 359.
Don't forget the Akira came out of that amped up militarization as well, I feel like there was another boat they designed out of that slaughter as well...
I always thought the Akira was a result of the Dominion War. Was it made before that?
Yeah, both the Defiant and Akira were designed as part of an effort to fight the Borg.
Pretty much all the newly designed ships we saw in the Dominion War were influenced by the Borg and the Battle of Wolf359. That includes the Saber, Steamrunner, Norway, I think the Sovereign too, definitely the Akira, and we all know about the Defiant. Throw in the Dominion and we see designs like the Prometheus, so advancement of military tech didn't stop with just the Borg. Thanks to the Jem'Hadar, Starfleet also has quantum torpedoes now.
One of the books on the Enterprise had Scotty creating/assisting with the creation of the sovereign class as a ship of war. No idea if it's still canon.
My opinion is similar to yours. Starfleet is a military that became demilitarized, a highly ironic situation . Because Starfleet always had a larger mandate then just defense, they were also explorers, they go through periods were they seem to forget that they are a military organization. The Federation seems to be the only power that combined its scientific fleet and military fleet into one organization. During peace time the scientific part of the fleet becomes dominant while in times of war or conflict its the military aspect that becomes dominant.
Which gives us Discovery, an era of all out war with the Klingon Empire.
Outstanding analysis!! Thank you.
i would agree that starfleet was an military organisation, besides, its base was made by humans, vulcans, andorians and telerites to defend against the klingon threat
A coalition of sorts, yea.
the ppl that say the design of the defiant class warship was a waste as it barely survived its only encounter with the borg , as it was specifically fitted out to combat the borg unlike most vessels ,with the exception of the sovereign class , but remember during the build up to the start of the dommion war the was only two known defiant class ships in use and one was not even a proper fleet use ship only just for stupid red squad( what a fucked up ideal and belive they had about them selves) so i think why use the time and resources to built heavy ships like galaxy's which can take a pounding , why not build like 300 defiants and join the the klingons with cloaks and pummel the dommion in hit and runs, all though starfleet built a 3rd to only replace the actual defiant , the sao paulo was however renamed to the defiant so still only two ships of the class.
the case of the 40 ship defence at wolf359 was the only amount of ships that they roughly had at the time and the ones that could get there in the time the enterprise gave starfleet to assemble them, as the commander says them at the end ' we will have the fleet up in less than a year , so its a real tricky thing to say that the starfleet was or wasn't militarized, as ships had weapon to defend them but also combat other ships but the core ideals were of border defence and exploration ,there are several instantness, where ships were more of a military style due to events , such as the NX-01 had very little fire-power for a while but then a need for greater ability saw them adopt a more weapon heavy ethos ,same as in our own history there is a shift in militry budget at peace time then a swift surge during time of war and it has to be said for the argument of fleet size the federation was 9000 lightyears big or across so earth not being directly in the centre makes travel time hard ,whos to say that after the ent took back picard and destroyed the cube ,that 300 ships didn't turn up hours later ?.
At time 5:51, we can see the original model made to be the Enterprise for phase 2, but is now being used as the Starship Discovery.
Well in enterprise archer went to space unprepared for defending the ship. He later admits he was wrong for thinking they could just explore. So he amored up the ship and put firepower on it After they got fuuuuuuuuuucked up.
This was basically Q's point when he introduced them to the Borg. They had become a bit smug and arrogant. He kicked them in their complacency and did them a favor.
Even if they didn't call themselves one they pretty much were in practice, they just didn't have as much need. They have armed fleets of ships, use naval ranks, etc. Sure their primary purpose was exploration but they did still serve the purpose of protecting the Federation through miltary action when needed. They were a military in practice when neccisary even if it wasn't the primary goal.
I own a copy of the TNG series bible. Starfleet relied primarily on diplomacy. Starfleet/UFP diplomacy was supposed to be so powerful that they didn't really need a proper military. They have about 1000 Excelcior ships and a miscellaneous other ships and a handful of Galaxy class ships. The idea is that if they got into serious trouble they could use the Klingons as berserkers.
It's not that Star-Fleet aren't a Military, it's just that it's not their primary role. Primarily, they are the Federation's Exploration, Scientific and (sometimes) diplomatic arm but in times of need, they act as a Defensive and (if needed) Offensive force for the Federation.
This can be viewed as somewhat wise, as the Federation can send StarFleet out to perform its myriad of roles without appearing overly aggressive.
I agree. Star Fleet was more militaristic during TOS era. I guess it was necessary with the cold war with the Klingons. After relations with the Klingons improved and the Romulans basically cut themselves off from contact Starfleet became more relaxed. Even their uniform styles became less formal.
Yea, It's like any great nation.. They get soft if they aren't always in a crises.
Starfleet's complacency may not be as insane as it seems in retrospect. The Federation is enormous, rich in resources, and has a highly developed industrial base. Its ships designs may have been technologically very conservative, but the civilization that built them was still scientifically very inquisitive. It's likely that Starfleet's (in hindsight ill advised) philosophy was to build ships that could defend its borders and rely on its scientific and industrial might to build better ships that were ideally suited to defeating its enemies if said enemies actually showed themselves to be a threat.
It's an open question whether anything Starfleet could have done would allow them to actually defeat, or even slow down, the Borg cube ship that crushed it at Wolf 359. They just didn't know their enemy, and that's a fatal flaw in preparation for war. And it's obvious how foolish their philosophy was in the Dominion War, where Starfleet's morale almost completely collapsed before the Federation could put together an effective war-fighting force. But people who've never known war are naturally not able to intelligently prepare for it.
On Earth we saw this in World War 1, where generals who had no comprehension of battlefield conditions told soldiers to hunker down in stinking, unsanitary field fortifications between bouts of telling them to charge entrenched positions defended by machine guns and heavy artillery. In Star Trek lore, we got Wolf 359 and the Dominion War.
Starfleet is a military that depending on the circumstances they face has differing missions. The confusion what a military is as organization and what it does as a mission. Organizationally a military is a hierarchal group of personnel that maintain the equipment of a government and use that equipment to carry out the orders of that government. What it does as a mission will differ over time depending on the needs of the state; when foreigners attack the focus of the military of course will shift to do whatever is necessary to preserve the state and citizens, when military resources exceed the needs of defense they will be given missions to aid others and explore.
Interesting
For me I always feel the implication in ST:TNG was that the Federation ships were so advanced technologically that they could easily defeat any known adversaries. But as the series progressed and new threats were introduced, and especially with DS9 and the multi season Dominion War story line, that this capability was shown to be lacking. Star Fleet is, as you say, styled after a real world navy, but it's a military existing in a semi utopian environment were even the concept of a military has become socially taboo.
I was shocked to find out Starfleet was the Federation's military division. They didn't do the things present day ones do .The original and tng said their mission was to " explore strange new worlds, seek out new and boldly go where no man has gone before" , not what an army does. They seem to0 peaceful for a military. All the armies I know of don't explore and seek out new life. It's not that hard to draw the conclusion that Starfleet isn't a military organization . Also no army ships that I know allows families aboard , except occasional visits with relatives are serving . It shocked me that children would be allowed to live on a military ship , I find that incredibly dangerous especially in battle like Wolf 359 and the Dominion War.
In order to understand that they're a military organization you would need to peel back the onion . I certainly do after doing so myself.
I must question though, when did the shift back to exploration? Because the Ambassador class seems to be fairly decent combat wise, just old and outdated by the time TNG and the galaxy class... I'd like to see something on the history and end points of the ambassador class development and service
Per what I can find, it looks like they stayed in service but production of them was stopped at or around 2370. I think that, like anything, once you've touched it - it never completely goes away. So I do think that the federation was severly weakened compared to what it could have been. But that doesn't mean it didn't have some defensive capabilities and ships that could hold their own. I don't think the Galaxy Class is the titan a lot believe it to be, but it certainly was no slouch either.
You are abundantly right about the emphasis on exploration and non-combat. The occasional fighting, as with the episode where the Enterprise under Kirk is like a US Destroyer chasing a Romulan cloaked Bird of Prey that was like an enemy sub.
That kind of thing, plus the military rank organization lets a lot of us fool ourselves. Very much like people with no understanding of military history fool themselves today, and think that we in the US are "invulnerable" sort of like "the federation."
The federation during tng seemed reactive not proactive..thats why I said 'just barely' to..they only built the bare minimum to survive
Also I feel at Wolf ,359 they sent old ships at pure cannon fodder . Section 31 would have known of the Borg ,I feel it was just to see the Borg's tactics before sending in modern ships they did not want to lose.
I never understood how people could say that Federation was a political liberal orientated universe only. There so many conservative voices in it. If anything Federation shows us, that you need a healthy balance of both. You can have a liberal paradise, but to think that no one would ever try take it is just dangerous.
I agree.. I think they leaned left..but had and allowed for right leaning elements
love your vids. keep up the great work!!!
I aim to please :)
I agree on your Opinion that the Starfleet wasnt a military. But after Wolf they literally became one with ships like the Alita Class or the Defiant who were 100% Combat Ships. Also the next Enterprise was an Attack Cruiser. I think they realise that they couldnt only do science they need a militay with strong ships
We do see in ds9 that excelsior class ships have be retrofitted with stronger phasers and quantum torpedos maybe some of these updates were done before wolf 359 the uss Melbourne may have been in dry dock being retro fitted hence the reason it was present at wolf 359
Starfleet and subsequently the Federation never seek out war. Yes, to some degree Starfleet would be a military organization, but most of their militarized parts were for defensive capabilities at best. However, Wolf 359 did do what you claim it did. It made the Federation realize that if there is a serious threat that is just as advanced if not more than them, they would suffer for it. Starfleet was never a direct military organization, but rather it was a necessary role that was forced when the time called for it.
Imagine if Starfleet had more captains and Admirals like Jellico
a few years before wolf 359 maybe we would have faired better against the Borg.
After Wolf 359 Captains and Admirals were more like Jellico. A good thing.
**Spoilers for Star Trek: Discovery Below**
(Avoid comment if you don't want spoilers for Discovery's first 2 episodes)
(Note: Regardless as to whether you like Discovery or not, how Starfleet reacts to an enemy fleet in Star Trek: Discovery shows how useless they are at dealing with any sort of real threat to the Federation)
If you want to see how un-prepared Starfleet was for any kind of battle or engagement, I suggest you watch the first 2 Star Trek: Discovery episodes 'The Vulcan Hello' and 'Battle at the Binary Stars'.
In these episodes, even after Sarek recommended that the only way to prevent a Klingon act of aggression is to preemptively fire on the Klingons first (as the Vulcans did during their first interactions with the Klingons), Starfleet hesitated and even while the battle was still ongoing, the Starfleet admiral was still attempting to try to negotiate with the Klingons even after the Klingons launched an unprovoked attack on their ships and attacking them.
As soon as that Klingon fleet dropped out of warp inside Federation territory, destroyed a Starfleet probe and ignored any hails by the USS Shenzhou, the Federation thought that they could still negotiate with the Klingons even in the middle of the battle.
Expecting Starfleet to defend the Federation from the Klingons is like expecting NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) ships to defend the US from the Russian Navy.
I do a live show to review the episodes of Star Trek discovery. You might want to take a look at the latest.. though I think you and I would disagree on a great many points there.
The Borg are quite the force to be reckoned with, though I think their adaptability is kinda plotty and overestimated.
I kinda understand it with simple handheld phaser, but with starship and battleship grade weapons, I think people overestimate it. Especially since we saw in First Contact that the Cube was heavily damaged by the time the Enterprise E at Sector 001.
I don’t know if you do these kinds of discussions, but I’d honestly like to see how the Galactic Empire from Star Wars would fair against a Borg Cube
Atta Boy, looks like we're back.
#oorah
Both Picard and Sisko are great but i suppose one should strive to be something in between them.
I honestly think it was the writers and show runners that pushed for The Federation to become more militarized. My assumption this was done for more action and conflict to be written into the show. This mostly started on DS9 but had its beginnings in TNG.
Well, and they did this for the audience to. I mean I don't disagree with Redlettermedia when he says movies have to be made for the 'popcorn eating masses'
thanks for the upload but I think you should've added some of Q's dialog from the ep where he introduces them to the borg - it really showed the flaws of starfleet
That's definetly something to consider for the future.
I always imagined StarFleet is basically The Coastguard. Search and rescue, evacuation, border patrol and research.
But could the coastguard fight a war?
No.
That's not a bad analogy. Though someone explained it was kind of like a supped up Nasa - which makes sense to.
I've always held the few that Starfleet started out as a exploration force but became a military force as and when required. However when a conflict did begin starfleet would be unprepared due to the fact it saw its self as a exploration and defense organisation. Even after the end of the conflict with the Klingons and the Border Wars with the Cardiassians it would not learn from past mistakes. By Wolf 359 by my estimates starfleet had a fleet of 64330 active ships of various classes, however its unpreparedness meant that it was once again caught off guard and it was finial the loss of 40 ships and 11000 lives that caused starfleet to become more of a military and begin launching ships pf the Akira, Norway, Steamrunner and the development of the Sovereign and defiant class. However even this was not enough and many in starfleet would have tried to limit the militarization, it was only when the Klingon War and later the Dominion War started that this old guard would have being silenced and the production of most pre-359 classes would have ended and more combat able ships produced.
Where do you get your estimates, if I might ask?
I use the NCC numbers and cannon and non cannon sources for ship launch years and good old fashioned guess work.
I even did a chart once to show the rate of ship buildings from 2160 to 2410, I share it but cant cut and pate into the comments.
Starfleet is not the military, but they do hold a monopoly on the exertion of force within Federation territory - they're sort of a police force with access to military-grade weapons, whose officers seem to take more philosophy, diplomacy, and science courses, than tactics or combat training.
Starfleet wants to be explorers but they need to be able to defend themselves. This is why the Both and Dominion whooped their asses so bad.
That's why I love the Defiant. Starfleet needs to have a military wing on standby in just such a case.
I also liked the Akira class ship
I'm very late to the party, but I have to say I'm very surprised anyone thought Starfleet was a Military organization.
Star Trek fans often act like they know everything about Trek and sound off in the comments, before actually doing a google search at the very least.
The federation has always lied about its fleet size and fighting force. The tng enterprise was twenty percent of star fleets entire arsenal when the Borg arrived
Even with the borg they still only made a few borg counter ships. The defiant as one. The sovereign class was still a semi science vessel not just made for battke
All science ships were also makeshift war vessels post the dominion war..
The constitution class was probably the ship used by Starfleet Academy for training.
Possibly yea
Starfleet is and always was a military organization. Just because starfleet is delusional and does not believe itself to be one, does not make it so.
The primary mission was to ensure the defense and safety of its citizens, exploration was only their secondary mission. You can see that every time the enterprise or some other ship would choose between defending a planet or a fellow ship against aggressors vs further exploration. They always choose defense, that proves that their primary mission is defense. If their primary mission was exploration, they would have ignored defense of citizens and just continued exploring.
Also, starfleet personnel are legally separate from average civilians, they have their own tribunal, and they can be arrested and jailed for insubordination. Just like any modern day military.
There is a saying, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Well starfleet looks like a military (as proven by how often people confuse it as such both in universe and fans watching, and rightly so too) and behaves like one (military uniforms, ranking, tribunals, charged with defence of nation etc), therefore it is a military, doesn't matter how delusional they are.
If the US military suddenly declared that they were no longer a military but an exploratory force, I would consider them delusional, just because they declare themselves to be something does not make it so. The US military spends a lot of money on scientific research, that does not make them a scientific institution, they are still a military.
During the victorian ages, the royal navy spent a lot of time exploring too, but guess what, they were still considered part of the military of great britain, why you ask? Because they were charged with defending the nation from foreign aggressors and protecting british interests.
I concur with your first premise.
Just because they exploration was there prime focus does not mean they were not ready for conflicts it’s just space is so vast that war was the least on there agenda. still enjoy your videos keep it up
Well just like WW1 In the spam of 4 years we saw a huge jump in military technology, a shift in combat doctrine , ultimitaly resulting to destruction on demand with the A bomb ...
I concur
If it wasn't for the Federation's massive and disastrous defeat at Wolf 359, Starfleet would have been ill prepared for their war with the Dominion.
Indeed.. Today's video is actually a battle break down of wolf 359..so keep a look out in the next 3 or 4 hours :)
Wow, I feel dumb for making the comment I did a few video's ago now. You basically made similar points here.
That'll teach me to finish the series next time!. :)
Shows I learned! Though nothing wrong for calling things out if they're wrong or you disagree. Videos don't age well..people shown wrong..opinions can change ;)
Also starfleet must have been caught offguard to find a cube deep in federation space and with the cube traveling at transwarp speed it could have just leap frog their defenses.
Starfleet is absolutely not a military organisation but I can see why people would say that after the new class and style of ships that were developed during the dominion war
As for the attitude towards conflict during the praxis incident, a real military organisation would of blockade trade routes to klingon territory and occupied outer reigons and evently would of fought the klingons into submission but that didn't happened because they aren't a military organisation they took the chance to develop peace instead of using force to gain territory and resources
Further more between the klingon peace treaty and TNG they still had problems with romulans, cardassians etc the reason they took such a big hit from the borg is that they are technology superior (one of their defining threats) and is significantly different from previous combat experience, it doesn't make them unprepared it's just the inevitability of coming across a technological you superior group in the vastness of space
They can call their fleet of heavily armed starships crewed by people who use military ranks whatever they want, but they're not really fooling anyone.
The start was wobbly but I'm now half way in to the video and yeah you get it. Starfleet is clearly a quasi exploration/military organisation per se. With DIS it may have been pretty militant prior to Kirk, at least for a decade,, but we need more DIS to tell. Post TOS it went OTT into exploration, to the detriment of defence which defo hit them at Wolf 359. The Dominion war rectified things but those ppl at Starfleet need to be more pragmatic
I look forward to your thoughts after all of it.
Love this video! Isn't there actually conflicting statements within the lore about the military nature of Starfleet? We know that there are ample times when Starfleet officers like the enterprise D crew stated Starfleet is not a military organization. But I do believe there are a few instances of civilians calling them the military. David marcus in star trek 2 comes to mind ("scientists have always been pawns of the military.") Are there any other or am I crazy?
I love the video but I have a nitpick. The Excelsior class starship is fully capable of being upgraded *which they were* with state of the art weapon systems.
We have no reason to believe they were during the battle of wolf 359
Your right they sent 40 ships which was more then enough so they assumed to take on just one ship. remember even in TOS one starship could decimate a planet and in the TNG they were that much more powerful, so to send 40 of them would in there eyes been overkill
In this instance, not true. In best of Both Worlds, they constantly talked about how the fleet wouldn't be enough - and this ominous fear that was going through.. They knew they were in a losing battle at this point.
with unknown threats as well as hostile neighbors for full centuries.. The military aspects would have never faded to the degree shown in TNG. The post Dominion starfleet would have been the main stay, the realities never reflect in the show. A more realistic telling would have had a hundred ships at 359 though the outcome would have little differed.
4:40 It could have been a matter of efficient (and deconflicted) use of resources that the Federation only deployed forty ships at the Battle of Wolf 359. More Federation ships might not have been decisive factors in the battle, and in any case were needed to protect Federation territory in case the force at Wolf 359 failed in its mission to stop the Borg.
In general, the Federation would mostly have consisted of liberal democracies like Earth which feared and distrusted (and resented having to fund) large standing militaries. It's a fact that the Cold War (when both sides had huge standing militaries) was economically unsustainable past 1990. However, resentment at having to fund a large military doesn't mean no threats which justify such a military don't exist.
The US went from the "end of history" in the 1990s to large nuclear and conventional military threats from China, Russia and North Korea AND a potentially massive terrorist military threat from many countries over religion. Whether we want to pay for a large military force, we need one. The same was true as the Federation matured - it had existing military threats it either was honestly unaware of, or tried to squint out of existence.
It's not really true that Q introduced them to the Borg the first episode in which the Enterprise meets the romulans the neutral zone they directly state how outposts on both sides disappeared and later in the episode where Q sends them to the Borg they find planets that have the same scars.
Lore Reloaded
The 40 ships at wolf 359 were the ONLY ships withing 8.5 lightyears of Wolf 359.
(Federation ships had a top speed of warp 9 (1,516 x lightspeed) and 48 hours to assemble
The Borg Cube started out at *18.36 Lightyears* from Earth (or 10.5 LIghtyears from Wolf 359) and traveled that distance at Warp 9.6 (1909 x Lightspeed)
This means that the 40 ships represent what was available in volume of space of 2,572 lightyears.
Thus this area had *1 ship per 64 light years of spherical space.*
*Starship Registry*
And note that according to to Rick Berman the Federation has an active fleet between the numbers of the USS Hood and USS Voyager. 32,360 ships.
As we saw in DS9 the ships in an emergency can be assembled in Fleets of 4 elements consisting of 300 ships each for a total 1,200 ships per Fleet.
That also means Star Fleet has 25 major fleets.
The numbers are also confirmed by Deep Space Nine which states that the Klingons would have to hold off the Domminion Powers with 1,500 ship at the odds of 20:1. Which means the Dominion is 30,000 ships strong.
*Federation Wars*
*Battle of Axanar* 2251
*Sheliack Conflict* 2255
*Federation Klingon War* 2267
*Cardassian War* 234'S-2367
*Dominion War* 2373-2375
So the only ships close enough to wolf 359 are closer in age to the constitution class than they do a galaxy class? That would be like the United States only have ships guarding the us coast line that are closer in age to a world war 2 frigate than state of the line defense ship...to defend the home lans
The US currently has 6 active fleets. Each Fleet has an oceanographic station. Only the 2nd Fleet is stationed permanently off the American Atlantic coast.
The Third and Seventh Fleet are in the Pacific Ocean near Russia and Japan. Only a few Cruisers Guard the California Coast. You deploy your fleets off station from hostile powers.
The ships you see at Wolf 359 were fairly standard ships, 9 were Modern Federation ships constructed after the USS Hood. 3 of them were old or likely pushed into service. Many of the ships were likely Excelsior class which were the back bone of the fleet. They were constructed in at least 5 different blocks. Half of those ships constructed after the Ambassador Class. So they weren't 80 years old as the class type would suggest. If the Federation constructed 953 ships per year as suggested between Excelsior and Galaxy then those Excelsiosr were built 30 years earlier from Galaxy.
(America's Arleigh Burke Destroyers are 27 years old)
Further: The Galaxy Class and the Nebula Class ships were designed to service and defend the Federation Border Worlds and the Outer Colonies. The ship was made exceptionally large to evacuate 15,000 at a time and to deposit Immigrants to new worlds.
Additionally the longer the battle between Earth and the Cube the more ships which could be summoned from the Border worlds. Deep Space Nine is said to be 52 light years from Earth. This is infact what happened with the Second Borg Invasion. The Cube was detected MUCH further out at IVOR and Deep Space 5 near the Federation Border. Defiant was one of the first ships to encounter the Borg Cube and they fought the cube from the border all the way to Earth. According to my estimates it would take more than a week to bring those ships into a War Formation against a single target. I outline a sustained engagement with a Single Borg Cube in my analysis of a successful Borg assault on Earth. In a separate analysis of Trek Firepower (6 Degrees of Galaxy, Firepower and Shields) I further estimate that to destroy a Borg Cube you'd need a little more than 300 Galaxy Class Starship's full 275 torpedo complement each (unshielded Borg Cube). In other words a Borg Cube equals 1/4 of one Federation Fleet and it wouldn't have mattered how modern the ships were.
Those cruisers World war 2 era cruisers are they?
Btw, very cool on your break down which I truly appreciate..very cool and points I'll consider and well taken.. Though I'm as likely to listen to Stalin's opinion on the amount of ships in existance as I am for berman ;P
The Kid Spurance Class were World War II Era. They came before the Arleigh Burkes. The Arleigh Burkes are still active be scheduled for decommissioning for the Zumwalt Class.
I've poured over the data for months and kept it in notepad form. There are a ton of clues spread across canon. You found some yourself when Picard says they aren't a military.
I've been in some pretty tough arguments with ST fans who balk at the Defiant and any other "pure bred warships" ever having a role in the Federation. In the end they maintained that even if it meant destruction at the hands of the Borg or Dominion or Romulans or some other foe, the Federation should have never militarized as it instantly betrayed itself by creating a purpose built warship, that it was better for the Federation to die out true to it's purpose than to change itself to avoid destruction.
I on the other hand believe that the Federation could and should trust itself to be able to militarize when needed and then be able to return to peaceful operations when able, and that the Defiant class is the perfect type of warship for the Federation, these are small ships that don't require large crews, can be built in large numbers very quickly in time of war, and because of their relatively low resource investment per ship can, in times of peace, be preserved and stored in mothball fleets ready for future activation when needed, instead of pressed into non-military purposes due to resource strain.
It's really easy to try to hold to ideals - when your life isn't the one that's actually going to be impacted.
PPS: "I will make them pay for what they have done!!!"
-Jean Luc-Picard!!!
Are you telling me starfleet never saw the romulans as threat. Every episode with them was a Cold War scenario.
I'm not sure how you would have gotten that impression..