StarTrek Dominion War : Rise of the Romulan Star Empire
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2017
- In today's Episode about the Dominion War in the Startrek Era - we take a look at the Rise of the Romulan Star Empire. In Short, The Romulans would come out the best between all of the Empires.. That was until their own troubles didn't get them down.
================================================
Want More Lore?!
Star Trek Lore: goo.gl/McF2i5
Star Wars Lore: goo.gl/Hzyrk2
Battle Star Galactica Lore: goo.gl/jpPPUY
Star Trek Dominion War: • The Story of the Guard...
================================================
Twitter: / lorereloaded
Facebook: / lorereloaded
Twitch: / lorereloaded
Patreon: / lorereloaded
================================================
The music in this video is licensed Royalty Free.
Songs:
Music by:
© 2017 Epidemic Sound - บันเทิง
![CAMPปลิ้น | EP.77[2/2] "รับทราบ" แก๊งเพื่อนรัก 10 ปี ที่ไปไหนก็มีตำนาน!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ifc0ofD51B0/mqdefault.jpg)
GEEZ MAN.. Can this guy even lore? /EVERYONE/ .. Well atleast /TRUE TREKKIES/ know that the Klingon and Romulan Governments were in the Beta Quadrant!? I mean seriously, does this guy even LORE!? - Great call out from someone on another Video. The Powers that resisted the Dominion are generally called the 'Alpha Quadrant' powers - Probably because it's the Federation Alliance and the story is based on the Federation :P This is a mistake though and I'll not repeat it. Sorry for the hiccup.
There's not much canon evidence that Romulans and Klingons in the Beta Quadrant anyway, iirc it's just dialogue from Sulu in TUC, which doesn't directly state the entire empires are in the BQ.
Right. Most resources hold that they are apart of the Beta Quadrant to. But yea, I'm finding that Star Trek is less science then it is Fiction ( for better or worse). They're not solid on their lore pieces. I don't feel like this is a huge deal - but it's worth noting that technically, a distinction exists..
Romulans and Klingon are beta quadrant powers going by a display graphic from into darkness. There's also display charts from insurrection. Plus there's soft canon stuff like STO
But I get where you're coming from, maybe discovery Discovery will sort it out
Oh also the Hansen's ship the Raven that defied Starfleet orders by entering the Beta quadrant to pass the neutral zone
WOULD NOT THIS BE A GREAT BASIS OF A NEW SERIES STARTING POSSIBLY 20 YRS AFTER THE DOMINION WAR ?? NOT GOING BACK 200 - 300 YRS AND CHANGING EVERYTHING INCLUDING THE PHYSICAL LOOK AT A KEY SPECIES OF STAR TREK
LOUD NOISES. I'll actually put it on the list as an option for theory crafting (like I did with the federation assimilated). I also take requests via patreon to have it moved up the list. Could be fun to do a what if but yes.. MAKE A SERIES ABOUT IT
OH HOW I LONG FOR A GREAT NEW STAR TREK { SINCE VOYAGER } !
It would be fun..
I kind of have my own little fan fiction in my head about just this. I use to play it out by modding games like Bridge Commander.
Me too, I gave up on the TV series now. They didn't listen to the fans and went back in time and made the new show like the new movies to try and cash in.
My only hope is that some developer makes a new Star Trek game with the scale and graphics like Star Citizen set after the Dominion War.
Wow, it would be so COOL if someone made like a TV SHOW or something that was during this interesting and dynamic time. Instead of more primitive precursor material for instance.
Completely agree. Maybe some day they will
I'm still holding out for a show that follows an alien race as the main characters and not just most the cast being human.
Agreed, but the writers of such a show would have to weaken the federation and do something like a soft retcon on some things (e.g. no more section 31 please, or make them FAR less effective)
Funny how the romulan ships are either super advanced or go down in a few shots, depending on what the plot of the episode needs.
I love this series you're doing. I have just one issue, a matter of semantics, with how you refer to events from In the Pale Moonlight. You say that the FEDERATION "assisted" in the assassination of Vreenak. Garak's specific plans were unbeknownst to The Sisko -- hence the confrontation in Garak's shop. The Federation didn't know any more than what Sisko knew -- they, and Sisko, approved the plan, unofficially of course, to go forward in attempting to trick the Romulan Empire into the war and, therefore, they had deniable culpability (but culpability nonetheless) vis-a-vis the assassination of Vreenak but it is not accurate to say they "assisted." They capitalized after the fact but did not "assist." I don't mean to split hairs -- I feel that the distinction to which I point is an important one.
Something about the way he says "The day after the Dominion War" in the beginning makes me imagine this immediately cutting to the intro card or some kind of graphic for a Federation News host. A very somber intro, and a very good video!
DS9 was so good, I regret not giving it a chance for years
DS9 was a great show.
Agreed!
mrS you are not the only one who like 's it
mrS It's one of my favorite Trek shows! 🖖
I wouldn't go so far as 'great'. I would call it a good show. It suffers the same let-downs as most other ST series in that you could just watch the first and last eps of the season as well as the multi-parters and it wouldn't hindrance your understanding of main plots one bit. The rest is just filler. Usually I wouldn't mind this so much but the producers just didn't bother attempting to hide it. Also , it wasn't just filler, it was bad or uninteresting filler. It also suffers, again like other ST series, from terrible first and second seasons.
DS9 was the same garbage as the rest of Trek.
Then the voyager returned from the delta quadrant, dealing the Borg a crippling blow and with superior technology that is 20 years ahead of everything that exists, able to provide the federation with ships that can take on several Borg cubes at once. Janeway, now promoted to admiral and Seven of Nine immediately started working on new vastly superior ship designs that the Romulans couldn’t even scratch. Romulan advantage simply evaporized with the federation left as the supreme power in the alpha quadrant.
I love your in depth looks into star trek lore, epic even! Keep it up
glad you enjoyed
Keeping track of all the powers involved in the Dominion War takes a lot of BREENpower.
In the final battle for Cardasia, Admiral Ross says "the Romulan flag ship has been destroyed, their entire line is collapsing." They also took heavy losses in other offensives, like with the Breen weapon. Also, they wanted a hospital on a Bajoran moon because "too many wounded are dying on the long trip back to Romulus" So I disagree.
I pointed out cardassia. We both know the moon was a front for weapons. Most resources show the Romulans losing in the hundred of thousands and the federation in the millions. Nothing you've said has countered my points..but you are welcome to disagree.
Lore Reloaded I think the issue for the Romulans is that they’re only two species - and you only ever see the Romulans on their ships. I think they’re a smaller population than the Federation, and can’t draw on as many resources to rebuild.
Great Job!
I do this for a living, glad its not a waste ;)
These are great 😎👍
Thanks, stay tuned ;) Going to complete this series and then start doing more Star Trek.. Let me know if there's anything that interests you..
Thinking that the Romulan loses only being 200K does make some sense considering the advanced technology they had, doing more with less. Powerful ships that were crewed with fewer people.
And they entered late into the war..
Well done.
I attempted ot impress.
Tal Shia Fleet was not part of the Romulan militarily. It was an intel agency. It's destruction at Omaria meant little for the Romulan fleet per se.
I don't think I equated the two, but according to the Dominion - they were the threats of those two empires.
At the end you said it was ironic how the Romulans rose post dominion war in spite of the damage done to the Tal Shiar in the die is cast. The Tal Shiar had a fleet but it was more than just a fleet (one that usually wasn't under the Praetors control) so it wasn't ironic. When the Obsidian Order got a few Keldons they put all their eggs on one basket. Thus the rise of the depata council....
Per the Founders, and from what I can see - the destruction of the fleet hit the Romulan Empire hard. Veteran Crews, the Tal shiar's eggs in one basket.. all orchestrated by the dominion and done in a way to ensure that it would gut the Tal shiar. And it did, it weakened them severly. If we believe the founder when he said the Tal Shiar proved to be the only threat of the Romulan Empire (and it seemed like they did when you look at the Romulan Empire backing off and then how the federation/klingon did most of the heavy lifting) - it is ironic that the Romulan Empire rose to be the one on top at the end of the day.
Yeah and no I think. I think the loss of the Tal Shiar fleet was immaterial. Going by later Ds9 fleet engagements is clear that the big 3 alpha/beta quadrant powers have upwards of a few thousand ships each. The loss of a dozen d'deridex warbirds wouldn't have stretched out their shipyards since they were already on a warfooting and are rather martial/militant in nature (contrast with Starfleet post 359 Imo). The intelligence losses would have been big but the Tal Shiar historically operated on their own ships...
As well as the star empires ships and in the planets. I think one enabrin tain got a few ships he recruited too many of the top Obsidian Order officials into his task force and that was that. Took a bigger bit than the Tal Shiar
I never understood this "lose your homeworld, lose your empire" conceit within Star Trek. The destruction of Romulus is shown in the MMO to basically end the RSE, while the assumption is regularly used in various shows that losing Earth is the "end" for the UFP.
Neither of these should be the case for empires that span such vast territory and have so many other planets full of people. Romulus wasn't even the Romulans' original home, and the UFP has umpteen other human inhabited planets and the homeworlds or myriad member races to relocate the seat of government to.
It's an idea that we get from the real world to. For instance, many thought if Germany were able to take the capital of Russia - Russia would have relented.. a lot of people don't believe this.
The issue within the romulan empire is a more roman idea, (hint Rom). So when the Romulan Senate, the entire Government in the same place, as the intrigues is such that no one wanted to miss the action. The greed of gaining more power, drove the machine. Its not a good idea to have all ones eggs in the same basket. with the federation is earth is lost, any planet with enough Fleet power can assume command under the Federations legal code. the romulan empire lost its entire Financial, Government, and Main government. With the Reman issue, there is a Multi-front war for power. the Remans, for a carved out section of romulan space to create there own Empire, while the Left over fleet commanders fight each other over the mantle of leadership. This flaw with the romulan Empire is not shared with the Federation, nor the Klingons with redundant codes to prevent a fire sale from happening.
I agree with the notion that the fall of Earth would not necessarily equal the fall of the Federation. That is because there are numerous species and societies in the UFP. But the Romulan Empire is much more centralized in its power structure. The fall of Romulus would plunge the Empire in serious dis-array to say the least. Also I always thought of the Romulans to have a deterministic point of view when it comes to history. With them just being the best equipped to rule the galaxy one day so the thought of the loss of their center of power probably never even entered their collective mind.
Exactly, which is a fault of such closed tight goverments. The romulan Empires self appointed heirs to the galaxy did not think they had a weakpoint, that the remans terrorist agenda did what the Klingon empire could not. The Klingons attacked from the outside, the remans attacked from within, Romulus being destroyed benifited the remans, and the Klingons, then Section-31.
Probably the fall of Earth for the UFP would be a devastating blow, since Enterprise shows us (in part) how humanity became of the major driving forces of the Federation. It wouldn't be the mortal wound, but pretty darn close. Also, considering that the major Federation infrastructure is centered on Earth (the Federation Council, Starfleet Command, major shipyard and research facilities), it would be a crippling blow to the Federation as a whole.
And with the Kelvin timeline, we see how the loss of a founding world, Vulcan, caused that timeline's version of the Federation to be much more militant.
Really good though i don't consider the destruction of Romulus as canon other than that i agree with much.
I'm not a fan of it either..the reason I do is that anything in the movies or shows is.. Romulus was destroyed in the prime timeline remember.. That was before the Kelvin even occured.. I'd be happier with it not though. Agreed.
well sucks to be you, the creators decide what's canon and what's not, not you
Yeah does not mean we have to watch it.
andrew worley THANK YOU!!!
I found the concept of destroying romulus very organic because all the other superpowers had lost so much in the dominion war and to find a balance, they destroyed romulus - it's a heavy impact, but important for future series to play in the main timeline hopefully where all powers struggles and the galaxy is in ruins.
Not only did they turn a blind eye, Federation Section 31 must have been working on there own plan to destroy the dominion in place by the time Romulans and Cardassians attacked. The Morphogenic virus.
An that one thing I would love to have learn, did the dominion ever find out about section 31 and their capabilities.
Hmm...I forget when they introduced the virus to Odo to spread..I'll have look. And as for them finding out..I imagine they would have had to when odo linked with them?
I believe it was when he was on Earth during that attempted coup by Admiral Leyton in 2372, which can't have been more than a few months after Romulan and Cardassia attempted their plan.
I have very little doubt that Section 31 is the type of organisation who would have been working on their virus when they first learned about Odo existence.
Yeah Odo was infected while on Earth
Sect. 31 might do the same thing to other powers if ignored for too long.
Congrats on 1k!
Could not have done it with out your support my friend.. Thank you so much ;D
Thank you but honestly, I should be thanking you for making such great content.
New watcher and really enjoying the videos. Can't wait to see the Breen video next week.
+Peter Danior Hey.. Welcome to the channel :) Glad you enjoy! We also have Doctor Who and battlestar Galactica Lore coming up if those meet your fancy. I always enjoy conversations about lore (even if you disagree ) and open to suggestions on what Lore you want to see.
1001 now, good going
It's interesting, though... the Star Trek Online timeline continues after...
(Thanks for mentioning it, too!)
Romulus is destroyed and Romulan Empire is fractured in two... The Romulan Republic, which is basically a Defense Force and more like the Federation... and the Roman Star Empire, more of the same under the Tal'shiar... it's really fascinating
Oh and I very much like playing as one of those Romulan Republic starship captains!
The Star Empire actually ceases to exist after Sela's downfall. The Tal'shair are a declining force in the northern largely anarchic regions of the former Empire. The Republic is a proper government.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea why the dominon have to trespass and cross Romulan territory to attack Federation targets. Romulan space is fairly far away and disparate compared to the mouth of the wormhole and Dominon deployments... where exactly were they based? Did a large fleet cross the neutral zone?
Great video! Really enjoyed it.
I have seen a lot of justifications to try to explain how this works. While I don't think it passes muster.. The most 'reasonable' that I can see is that the maps we see are 2 dimensional...space is.. 3 dimensional ..so in theory maybe they wrap around somehow... Not the most convincing but the one that makes the most sense..
One of the things I greatly disliked in DS9 was section 31. DS9 turned humans and the federation into a superpowerful force that was OP compared to other civilizations. Klingons are warriors? How many times did we see Sisko and team beat them in hand to hand combat? Romulans specialize in intrigue? Oh look at that the head of the Tal Shiar is a federation mole. And lets not get into how many times the Defiant one shot killed ships. In any hypothetical post Dominion War series the first task the writers would have is to nerf the Federation. (in my head canon Romulus was not destroyed)
I do agree the ships felt like they were made of explodium alot
What happened to the nx-02? Really starting to love this page!
your videos are great, do you have one about the dreadnought class, i like startrek, but not sure how to start exploring the universe, right now im just kinda new timeline and discovery, i have seen some Picard, but i would like to know more about it, and for example i very confused with discorvery, specially in the part were it says best captains and kirk is not there..... the hell??
The Romulan Star Empire should've been on the ascendence after the Dominion Wars. They should've been the main power afterward. JJ Abrams is such a hack.
Am I the only person who wanted to slap the shit out of Dr. Bashir when he acted high and mighty while others did what they had to do to save the Alpha quadrant?
I think Odo and Garak called him out in various forms. His lack of sympathy for atleast the idea of Section 31 and the superior attitude in inter arma enim silent leges was very cringe worthy, agreed.
Yes, this is one of the many things I loved about DS9... they weren't the pollyanna Star Fleet officers... they felt more real, forced to balance the ideals of the Federation with the reality of war. I actively rooted for Section 31 and against the doctor...
I did wan't to slap him but he played his role well enough, he was always a green behind the ears idealist but his relationship with Garak (along with Odo's) kinda made the show.
Odo was the anti Bashir, Garaks interaction with them was superb.
Ironically, Alexander Siddig plays Ra's Al'Ghul in Gotham. I'd like to think that Ra's would be sympathetic to section 31.
ok, I think you missed where odo remarked in "what you leave behind" that the romulan and Klingon empires were both in no shape to make war on anyone at the end of the dominion war.
Mmm.. That's an interesting point. I would say that Odo, in this instance, is trying to talk the Lady Changeling out of continuing the costly war so he could have been over emphasizing. That said, I don't know that I immediately see what he said and this video in contradiction. I didn't say that the Romulans didn't take heavy losses. Just that they were in a better position versus their counter parts. That they could cause the biggest issues if they chose to. Odo's last piece on 'the federation wouldn't allow it' - is also consistent. So that could be something I over looked, but I'm not convinced its contradictory at this point.
possibly. good point.
I think of the Romulan Empire similar to the USA after World War two they suffered casualties but nothing in comparison to Russia and the UK.
I think the kilgions would getting a boost after getting a piece of the carrdaissians and have modrak help getting the council back on track.
I read in a sourse book the romulan fleet a 6500 strong, but warbirds or capital ships were a small number. They had the same size military as the Klingon but romulan ships were far more advanced. But the end and including war time production the romulan fleet was down to 1500 ships . Most of the losses were to the breen in the few weeks . The federation had 8 thousand ships and lost around 4 thousand ships. But the federation and romulan and Klingon empire began a massive rebuilding effort the Klingons would take a decade to recover the federation took around 4 to 5 years many of the romulan / federation, Klingon losses were at the battle of cardassia .a 8 thousand ship armada of equal members lost a third of the fleet before the cardassions defected. And the romulans got hit hatd .
Despite it's losses the Federation still remains the leading power in the alpha and beta quadrants of the galaxy. I doubt the Romulans could ever really match the economic and military power of the federation. They'd give it a go post war, but ultimately it would end in a Federation victory.
How about some discussion on how or why the first admiral seems to be wearing gold!???
It could be inferred that the Tal Shiar’s position within the Romulan Empire was weakened significantly by their failed attack on the Dominion. Their leader was not immediately confirmed to The Romulan Continuing Committee, which was normally a given. This may be why it leader was willing to become a tool of Section 31, the loss of fear and respect for the Tal Shiar may have made those within organisation desperate.
I'm with others hoping to see the destruction of Romulus ignored if the franchise ever makes it back to the 24th century.
As for the end of the Dominion War, I always imagined that reconstruction of Cardassia was shared between the allied powers in the same way that Germany was divided after WWII, each attempting to remake Cardassia in their own image to give them an advantage in the wars to come. If Romulus were destroyed, this would leave an interesting power vacuum on a third of the planet.
You and me both. I don't like it being in Canon. For the moment, CBS and Paramount declare it on high.. Maybe one day we'll just have picard waking up saying 'Wow, what a bad dream'. The Dominion war was fashioned after WW2.. So I could see them trying to structure it like that. However, I think that we would see the Federation act like the US and push for sovereignty and for them to be whole. This would create certain pressures that would still pull their focus.
I think Garak would be power player in Cardassia politics, bit by bit anyway.
He knew that his people would be better under federation protection than Klingon and Romulans. It a shame there wasn't a season 8, it would have been brilliant to have seen the great web of lies, deceit, murder he weaves as he protects what left of Cardassia and align it to the Federation.
I always imagine Martok would be a great reformer of the Klingon Empire. He outright criticise Klingons doctors for example, as chancellor I see him fixing that. He would have seen just how much Federation scientists and engineers contributed to the war efforts.
A period of isolation and a rather inward looking empire. Where resources were not only devoted to to rebuilding the fleet but to giving more resources to Klingons scientists and engineers.
My own little idea/ fan fiction on post war Cardassia is that it becomes something like a chess piece to the Romulans. Leave Cardassia to the Federation and try to quietly stir up some Bajoran-Cardassian resentment.
Where was the founders Plant? What episode on what show, was it found? I know ODO went back in the last episode, BUT...where was the plant? In the federation, or the Romulan Emipre...or??
if you think about it, if Q did not introduce the federation to the borg it is most likely the Dominion would be the victor
section-31 seems to have there paw into everything behind the scenes. DS9 episodes shows how section 31 nudges things to an end. The fall of the Dominon, the fall of Romulan Empire. Daniels explained that 300 years later both the Klingon and romulan empires joins the federation. which is near the Year:2450. The Klingon Empires throw everything style of fighting war, left a lot of destroyed fleets. daniels Explains that the kingons joins first then the Romulans. So what section-31 would have planned that would cripple the Klingons so bad that joining the Federation was the only option. The Startrek Television DS9 ended before giving the answer. Last stardate times 2390's (2409, STO) the Klingon Empire has not yet fallen. The Klingons would have to have a threat severe enough, and yet somehow mysteriously saved by the federation. ( hint: with the romulan empire swept away, both the Neutral zone treaty, and cloak ban treaty is cancelled. (there is no romulan Government to re-enact the treaties). Starfleets Supposed cancelation of the phased cloack program would come in handy to save the day.
I have a question for you with the jj verse making the federation more military in nature this time around how do you see the dominion war taking place what changes do you see taking place ?
That's a good question and it's something I've considered putting in the hopper as a Lore Craft Theory. I think it would be very interesting.. After Nero attacked the Kelvin, I think we see a jump in technology by the federation. Not only acceleration due to the incident, but by information they got from the attack - what the Enterprise encountered etc. We also see that Section 31 went from being a 'group of people with no office' - to having entire installations right under the noses of the Federation. The Federation in the JJ Verse was far more advanced then its Kelvin-time line counter part. And even when the admiral was defeated in wrath of Khan - the push for staying a military is still there (I think). So while we have no reason to believe that the Dominion wouldn't continue along with their normal progression - they would meet a far more prepared Federation. One that's ships weren't exploratory first and military second.. One that would be much more apt to go to war to. I don't know if you know SFdebris but I think he was succinct in saying that the federation waited to long to go to war and it cost lives.. I think the JJ Verse federation would have pulled that hammer far faster.. Ofcourse, that's obviously all conjecture based on three movies with little to no other resources.. It would be interesting to do a review of all the impacts of the Vulcan people (Tuvok, others) - and try to account for the loss of them.
Really the romulan came out in the best shape out of everyone because they started in so late in the war and took the least amount of destruction
Didn't the Romulan ships suffer greatly during the ending stages of the war? I mean, yeah, they joined late and they were fewer in numbers, but they were numerically inferior (compared to the Klingons and the Federation) to begin with. Making up for numbers through stealth and subterfuge. So even though UFP took the brunt of the war in both manpower and materiel, they did ended it with their shipyards kicking new starships like there's no tomorrow. Similarly like the Soviet Union and the USA came out of the WW2 as the most industrious nations in the world.Not to mention, the mentality of Star Fleet was changed from uptight, nothing can touch us, we live in a Utopia outlook, back to the Kirk's time, we have to be wary and fight for what we hold dear attitude.
Might I suggest you do some star trek history lore videos? Longer videos? You have a good grasp of storytelling so I think these videos would be good for the channel. Plus, TH-cam is lacking in good trek lore videos
You have suggestions on what you would like to hear?
The Tal Shiar wasn't necessarily weakened significantly by the losses in the battle of the Oomarion Nabula, as we know from TNG: Face of the Enemy, a Tal Shiar officer can alter a romulan ships mission, this directly means that they could enlist a large fleet against any of the Romulan admirals wishes, taking the ships and crews along for the mission, while only having to deploy a limited number of their own forces, theoretically as little as one officer per ship, in reality probably a handful or two per ship. The Obsidian Order had no such choice as the Order and Central Command run their own affairs, within some guidelines (DS9: Defiant), and thus the Order had to commit a substantial number of agents to the mission, thus crippling them when the mission was fatal.
The information here was based on resources including Memory Alpha, CBS/Paramount websites, and the words of the Changeling. I would say it is further proven by the fact that Section 31/Starfleet Intel were able to effectively gain control of the Tal Shiar during the dominion war. However, I would admit these aren't definitives..
Even though the Dominion officially lost the war, I would think they would have rouge elements or even intelligent assets , special reaction forces hiding out in cardanssian space to keep a eye on former enemies.
Yes I think so. The dominion will grow, and one day return
Dominion still have most of their resources in the Gamma Q
After 5 years star trek listen to this comment
could you do a video of the romulan empire post the destruction of romuls and the romulan republic? if it is not too much trouble
Sure, I'll see if I can slot it in ;) Star Trek seems to be the popular series for the channel ;) I'll put it in the queue. For what its worth, and there's no pressure here - I also recently started a Patreon (which will help me do this full time). I'll be launching a special where you can request specific lore that I'll do (and which would be done quicker). 2.00 or more a month and I'll do one specific piece of lore video for you. Again, it's in the queue now and I'll see about getting it done after this series.. but that's an option to. Doesn't bother me either way. Just letting ya know. Thanks for watching ;)
Who would win in a fight between Darth Vader and the Borg Queen?
I’m not sure if any of you know this. There was a reason why the Romulan Star Empire’s home world was destroyed. It was precisely because they were the strongest power right after the Dominion war. Do some research and you will know
If I were UFP, I'd be interested in expanding where there aren't large empires.
It doesn't make sense that the entire Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar were destroyed when like 20 ships got destroyed. Both organizations are massive.
"Destruction of their homeworld" occurs in a totally different reality!!!!!!!!!!!!
It occurs in the prime time line..
in true war, The gloves are off. There is no prof the Federation was going to help the Cardassian's, They would help their Klingon allies rebuild. The Romulans never showed they have vast resources of their own and They usually show catch up to the Federation in Ship tech, In your earlier shows I believe you mention the federation take a more harder take on the world with war ship building after the war and Their actions with other worlds not friendly (unless that was space dock?)with them.
I do not approve of jj-trek destruction of romulus. We Romulans won the dominian war and we get the destruction of our homeworld in return???
We live in a brave new world where "canon" doesn't really mean anything anymore. Just go with whatever you like in your head, I say.
The destruction of Romulus happened in Star Trek Online way before it became canon in Picard.
Romulans gonna romulan.
...word
If you go outside of the on-screen canon (or even analyze the on-screen canon extensively), there are three minor problems with this. One is that the Romulan Star Empire, while definitely the least damaged of the major powers, was surrounded by potentially hostile minor powers. The other is that the events of Nemesis (according to the novels at least) caused a split in the Romulan Empire (forcing the loyalist faction that still held Romulus to form a coalition of those minor powers called the Typhon Pact). The third is that the Federation staved off a great deal of damage when new worlds joined them during and after the Dominion War, meaning that while Starfleet itself may have taken heavy losses (and Lord knows the damage to the Federation's infrastructure from the Dominion getting into Sector 001 and occupying Betazed, must have been extensive), economically and politically, the Federation would still have been the core power of the quadrant.
Still though, I never quite realized how little the events of the Borg and Dominion Wars had done to the Romulan Empire.
The logical and reasoning was pulled from as strict to Canon sources as I could do. I didn't utilize any secondary or teritary information such as books. I would be curious what would needed to be 'analyzed more' to get to the conclusion with out for knowledge of the books. I'm not sure if you watched the video or not, because I cite Nemesis as the reason that the Romulan Star Empire would not stay as top dog. As I say in my video directly, It's not that the Romulan Star Empire could win a major conflict with the Federation. It's that they could make it hurt. The Federation was going to be pulled thin. After all those losses, the defense of the Cardassians, bajor joining them and the defense of the wormhole, ensuring the Dominion don't return.. Any conflict with the RSE would cause major issues for them.. and through that.. they had power. The threat of war was more influential then war itself.
You just have to see the capabilities Prometheus brought to the table to know that RSE wasn't going to come off the best against the Federation in any futures wars. Which is probably why they wanted the ship desperately.
ah, okay. After watching the video again I see. The reference to Nemesis was so short I missed it the first time around. I guess I didn't realize there was actually a span of a few years between the Dominion War's end and the events of Nemesis.
Will this video series include "Star Trek Renegades" as canon in its analysis of the original and ongoing Star Trek universe? And thus follow up on any events of Romulus' post destruction!
That wasn't my intention. However, I'm happy to add Renegades to the queue and give them their own lore video. I got them put in the queue of videos (I start new series after one ends obviously). I also am offering a deal for those who are on Patreon. If you become a Patreon - then you can do a special request and it'll move to the top of the queue. Either way, I'll have it done on the channel ;)
Cheers!
But what happened next was there was a complete coup in Nemesis and suddenly split between the ships of the tal shiar, shinzons forces and the civilian government who wanted reunification.
This is from Star Trek Online, I believe?
Is Romulus' destruction canon? I thought the films were there own thing
I have seen a canon star map of the major STNG powers. And most of the RSE resides in the Alpha Quadrant, with a small portion that clearly bleeds into the Beta Quadrant. This was on the canon website map. Not sure where the Klingon Empire is on that star map. Don't really care.
Long live the RSE!
Unfortunately, I haven't really been able to confirm a 'true' map as canon. Though there are several out there that show up in resources that are supposed to be canon. I'd be ceurious in a link? I use the closest map that I could find in several videos. Honestly, I'm surprised at how.. lack luster.. Star Trek seems to be in solidifying what is and is not canon.
personally I like that Romulus was destroyed, it didn't knock out the Star Empire but rather gave Vulcan reunionists a reason to rise up, spliting the empire into two (the Former Romulun Star Empire, mainly ran by the Tap Shiar or it's remnants after the Dominion) and the newly formed Romulun Republic. Star Trek Online may not be perfect but in my personal opinion I liked what they did with the Romuluns.
It's interesting, though alas not considered hard canon as of yet.. Be curious if they went with it in new movies or shows.
Lore Reloaded hoping that of or when Star Trek gets a new series, it'll be in the 25th century and takes notes from STO but feel it a little bit.
Long live the Empire
Read The 'Romulan Way' and 'Spock's World' for a great AU telling of Romulan/Rihannsu history. It is superior to so-called Star Trek canon. 'My Enemy, My Ally' also gives a very good account of a warbird commander and crew.
I'll look into that for sure.
Ok. Another question. Why was the federation losing the war in the early stages? Was the Dominion higher up on the tech level or was it a numbers game?
When we first meet the Dominion - they were leagues above the federation. Shields - both ship/station and personal shields - did nothing to stop them. At the beginning of the war, we know that they improved technology to atleast be able to resist transports and weapons fire. However, I don't think the federation was ever really geared for war. They came into war due to necessity. They were like a 'sleeping giant'.. with the capabilities of the war - but not really in a state to conduct it. Ultimately, once the federation got their war machine churning - they were able to over come. If you haven't seen it.. I've done two other vides (this is a series) - I'd suggest checking them out. They are called 'Starfleet Militarized' and 'Klingon Empire Destroyed'
Lore Reloaded sounds similar to the other sci-fi factions that has more emphasis on shields. I might have missed it on the two videos the first time. I'll check them out again when I get the chance.
Well the shields was just an example. the Dominion walked right through them. Though on that topic, The Galaxy Class (especially the enterprise, but you can see on the Odyssey to) was a stupid easy target once you bypassed shields. The Galaxy Class ship was an absolute glass canon.
Yeah the Galaxy class was discovered to be a poor design. Too expensive and not ideal in a war as a ship of the line. The Dominion was just technologically far superior to the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Quick note about the D'deridex, the criticisms on the Galaxy class could apply to the D'deridex, but I think the latter is far more suited to war and fighting in formation. Based on the original design and what we saw from her in TNG, no ship in the alpha quadrant can match her as far as a frontal assault. Her weakness is size and poor maneuverability. But put her in a line with other D'deridexs supported by screen ships and you have a very potent force.
Last thing, I think TNG and DS9 should have handled the Warbird a bit differently. Watching the two series one may assume that they make up the bulk of the fleet, when it makes much more sense that they don't. I liken them to almost like a naval aircraft carrier. A D'deridex should never be by itself far from Romulan space.
An admiral with a gold uniform? Did anybody catch that?
In TNG we had an admiral with a gold uniform to (I believe?) Head of Starfleet Security
This is the first one I remember. Chief of Starfleet Security would make sense I guess. So is the head of Starfleet medical an admiral with a blue one? Who knows. I think it may have been a small error.
@@poseidon5003 I don't think it was an error. To me it makes sense that Starfleet Security would be gold and Starfleet Medical would be blue, the reason we rarely, if ever, see them onscreen is because orders are usually issued by Starfleet Command (red).
@@ericlanglois9194 I don't think it was an error either. BUt no Gold admirals were on TNG. I would have remembered...I think. I watched so many repeats that I could literally take a part.
@@poseidon5003 pretty sure there was. Head of SF security would be of that rank. They called him admiral because of the base rank structure. Today, he would be called General and be the head of specops or marines. Same shit different century
Didnt the destructiion of Romulus occus in an alternative timeline? The primary timeline of the TNG, VOY and DS9 does not include the destruction.
+Tor Inge Pedersen No Romulus is destroyed in the prime universe.
The Federation could be compared to WW2 Allies or Cold War/Present Day NATO uniting everyone even if ti destroys them.
The entire dominion war was fashioned after WW2 - so I'm not surprised by that at all.
Although for the Federation to remain in power it would have to follow US foreign policy by funding mercenary/terrorist armies that take over planets then the Federation act as "liberators" with limited air strikes using shuttlecraft and Phaser blasts from space then by gaining the planets influence and respect as "Heroes" the planet becomes part of the Federation or a puppet planet.
I'm not sure that Romulan losses were light, during the last battle were we can expect the full military power of the alliance was deployed, the Romulans got the worst of it and even their admiral was killed. Also I'm pretty sure that there is a movie were it is said that the Federation was left in position of strength compared with the other belligerents even if severely weakened overall.
It seems unreasonable they would dedicate all of their forces leaving nothing after.. I would be curious the movie if you remember..I'll try to look it up myself..
@@LoreReloaded you were correct as Sloan pointed out the post Dominion War Galaxy the 2 powers that would remain would remain in position they can do anything were the Federation and Romulan Star Empire. Though I do have to disagree somewhat on your take on Starfleet the Dominion war didnt necessarily bring a dystopia but it did bring a technological Golden Age for Starfleet as now it needed to look heavily at future ships that were coming out making sure that any ship serving Starfleet would need to be able to defend itself. This kinda awakened a sense of responsibility that Starfleet always had but had more or less forgotten.
When and how was the Romulan Homeworld destroyed?
In 2387, Romulus was destroyed in the prime timeline due to a SuperNova.
are you going to cover sfdebris popular theory about the brien
If its something people want to see, I'll definetly try to include it ;)
you should look it up if you have not heard its very intersting
I've watched sfdebris for years :) Just so I am on the same page though..is this within one of his reviews or a special that I missed ?
its part of his look at the enterprise episode dear doctor
I'll rewatch it and include it in the video
Minor Error: the Romulan Empire is locatedin the Beta-Quadrant
The Federation also became a powerfull military force after the Dominion War, because just one ship... USS Voyager. A ship capable of take down dozens Borg cubes is a fearful ship, and the other forces in Alpha Quadrant would think there are other ships as strong as Voyager. Just to exemplify, after the World War II the other nations did not interfere with URSS because they beileved Stalin had the nuclear bomb, and the result of that were decades of Cold War. However, there will be not a Cold War here once the other empires were weakened after the Dominion and Romulans were crippled by Shinzon, too.
I agree that Voyager gave a big advantage.
Remember the remans did most the fighting
Their intention was crippling intel agencies, not fleets outright. Knowledge is power
...ok
Oxhorn? ??
I thought the founders was a Pantheon becoming active in the Trek verse.
A pantheon becoming active in the trek verse? Not sure I follow?
Lore Reloaded sisko was a prophet for a god or gods, and been committed to a asylum in two different timelines. Every time I caught those episodes god or the gods were the founders.
Oh, The Founders are the 'Gods' of the dominion species they created. The Vorta and the Jem'Hadar. i can see them being described as a Pantheon.. Sure..
The Federation lost a lot in the Dominion war. They also gained a lot in military ways. Better phaser technology, better torpedoes and shields. Also after arrival of the Voyager even better shield technology, transphasic torpedoes and slipstream warp technology. These things made even the Borg worried, therefore they start the so called Borgwar. After the Borg got destroyed or taken care of by the Caeliar the Typhon Pact rise with Tholians and, of course the treacherous Romulan Star Empire and the Breen (plus others). So this so called rise of the Romulans says not much to me, they are still very afraid of the much larger and stronger Federation.
Is there something specific in my reasoning you disagree with? The Romulans also grew in technology and ability during the dominion war. I think what I proposed was logical..where is the flaw in my reasoning ?
6:35 Ah... Dina Meyer Still as sexy as she was in _Starship Troopers_
... and probably the best thing in _Nemesis_ . Followed by Brent Spiner's version of _Blue Skies
_
200,000 That's it?
Question: Wouldn't the Romulan Empire make better allies for the Federation than the Klingons? Unlike the Klingons, the Romulans remained within their borders, never engaged in aggressive territorial expansion, hardly ever engaged in open-war with the Federation (with the exception of the Earth-Romulan war of 2161 & the 2360s) and were committed primarily to their own security & self-defense. Unlike the medieval system of dueling feudal clans that the Klingons maintained, the Romulans had a modern government run by Senators, a Praetor, and Proconsuls. They saw no glory in war and tried to avoid it at all cost through isolation, build-up of defensive forces, surveillance, and limited-military engagements.
The Romulans weren't all that altruistic. They were always trying to decieve the federation to get a foot hold or destroy their ships. I think that the Romulans and the Federation could have been allies except for the initial Earth-Romulan War. Since then, they would never really trust eachother. Even the federation was willing to prosecute someone for having Romulan ancestry. Simply for /being/ part Romulan.. That's it. The mistrust between the two was to high..that after a bigger threat was gone..they would fall back into mistrust. It's a tragic story from that angle really.
I'm inclined to think an alliance between the two makes sense, and is not terribly far fetched. Mind you I said alliance not friends though. My take is that the Romulans are naturally distrustful of other races, and while they wish to avoid war they suspect it is coming. That is the reason for the espionage and schemes. Weaken other factions so they are no longer a threat. But now they realize that the galaxy is smaller than what it was. The Federation is preferable to the unknown threat (e.g. Dominion). For an alliance to work, it could not be like the Klingon-Fed alliance where it was obvious that the Federation was the stronger side. The Federation would have to stroke Romulan ego a bit.
+Lore Reloaded. I never said they were altruistic, only that they make more sense as allies than the Klingons. It's easier to trust a power who hasn't fought a war against you in a century, than to trust a power who has been constantly at war with you for decades. This would be like the United States and UK refusing to ally themselves against the USSR in the Cold War because of bad blood from their war in the 1770s.
The Romulans and Federation hadn't fought a war with each other for 100 years (excluding some minor border skirmishes). They were both threatened by Klingon expansionism. The Romulans obviously saw all-out war as a last-resort to be used in self-defence and had no interest in expansion. The Klingons saw war as a glorious end in itself and built an entire culture around war & aggressive territorial expansion.
I was actually thinking of a Federation-Romulan alliance being formed sometime in the 2260s-2280s (the time of TOS, the Federation-Klingon Cold War & Kirk). The Klingons were an expansionist, aggressive, warrior empire that had been fighting the Federation for many decades. The Romulans would have looked like pretty good allies, large, technologically advanced, strong, isolationist, concerned primarily with defending their pre-existing empire and not expansionism, a power which would only engage in full-on war as a last resort.
Odo said the Romulus not shape wage war against anyone suggestion real weaken by the war.
Yea
Why did I think this was about the Cardassian Federation War?
No idea.. But I intend to do that series to.
There is very little info on that at least in TNG. What caught my eye the most is Picard talking about how the Cardassians were a deeply spiritual people. I had an idea for a series between TOS and TNG where the Cardassians were still a spiritual people.
In case it warrants being added into this video post-production, have you read the Dominion War books Behind Enemy Lines and Tunnel Through the Stars? In it, the Dominion attempted to build an artifical wormhole to bypass the then-mined Bajoran wormhole to bring reinforcements in from the Gamma Quadrant. This was known to at least one surviving Tal'Shiar operative and, if the Dominion pulled it off, the operative would've recommended that the Romulans join the war on the Dominion's side. Well, like I said, in case it warrants inclusion in this video or another.
Do you remember which book? I'll take a look at it. I honestly try to stick with as close to canon as I can. That's apparently almost impossible to do with Star Trek given the gaps they leave. X_x all books are almost universally not-canon and in universe. But that seems like an interesting addition. I'll see if I can find it - and if you remember the exact book it was in, let me know. I've read some dominion war books - but never remembered that one.
I'm not sure if they're canon, but here are the links.
Behind Enemy Lines: www.amazon.com/Behind-Enemy-Lines-Star-Trek/dp/067102499X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505932305&sr=8-1&keywords=Dominion+war+behind+enemy+lines
Tunnel Through the Stars: www.amazon.com/Tunnel-Through-Stars-Star-Trek/dp/0671025007/ref=pd_sim_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0671025007&pd_rd_r=HGCSDA89E2SC0NXN95RX&pd_rd_w=TcwHL&pd_rd_wg=0gByN&psc=1&refRID=HGCSDA89E2SC0NXN95RX
It's also books, plural, just so there's no confusion. I hope that helps and, if you can get them, they're good reads. Enjoy!
Thanks, I'll take a look. :)
My pleasure. On a side-note, you see how those books are numbered 1 and 3 in the series? The other two follow the events of those DS9 episodes which take place while the station is held by the Dominion. They are largely canon (in that we saw much of it on TV, at least) with a lot of off-camera moments added in to round them out. They're also worth reading. Please let me know if you need links.
Too bad janeway brought that voyager ship back full of future/borg tech and the new sovereign class ships pretty much made the federation owned the alpha/beta quadrant
The destruction of Romulus is still canon?
Shinzon was a human clone not a reman
While I could have said it better.. The wording was 'apart' of the remans. I know he was clone and I specifically even shown him in the video :) need to be more eoloquent in phrasing.
I get that, just the was it was worded implied he was the same species
Sure. I'll be the first to admit that my script writing could use some tweaks. I attempt to improve every video ;)
he does identify as Reman though
Why did they try and steal the Prometheus?
What if the Romulan senate decided to back Shinzon
then god help us.
Dude Romulans home world wasn't destroyed that's JJ timeline bull shit
It's also canon in the prime timeline.
but it was in the STO timeline if u remember Star Trek Online and the Hobus supernova
Lore reloaded there are no proof that Romulus is destroyed in the prime universe. STO is not canon as all videogames. About OK film: Romulus is destroyed, but we don't know in which universe, all we know is that has happened in a different universe, but we don't know in which one, it could simply be a universe similar to the prime one.
Spock came from the prime time line it is canon despite fanboi whining.
It was section 31 new what to do
The dominions fked up bad... They did not know the biggest the most badass military is the one that claims it is not a military lol
They severly underestimated their enemy, for sure.
Thank God for Section 31. They don't stand a chance without an organization like that because of their passive nature. Hope if in real life humanity ever does travel the stars, we have a section 31 looking out for us. Star Fleet is simply too weak and passive.
I didnt know the remans fought for the romulans during the dominion war i thought they were slaves on the reman mines on remus?
They were. The Romulans pressed them into service when they joined the war. That's how Shinzon gained support of the military. He distinguished himself through out the empire by his wins against Dominion Targets. It's an interesting back story.
Used as cannon fodder if I remember correctly
I feel for them.
I hate when people brag about how many TH-cam subscribers they have!
Then you probably shouldn't watch those channels. Thanks for the comment
The destruction of Romulus is JJ-Trek and therefore non cannon. Its even in the movie that its an "alternate universe" or some BS.
Not true. The destruction of Romulus occured in the prime time lines which ultimately caused the jj verse..its as Canon as everything else.
Then their star blew up....
A shame the Romulan Empire also suffered through the Hobus Incident. Otherwise your prediction would have been correct. As it stands in STO, the Romulan Empire was severely weakened by the Hobus Incident. The Tal'shiar strengthened their position and Sela became empress. However the weakened empire became more totalitarian, corrupt and dystopian. The Tal'shiar even went so far as to cut deals with various species (such as the Elachi and the Hirogen) in order to keep in power. Outer planets, no longer as well protected, were preyed upon by other species, whether economically by Ferengi carpetbaggers (as shown in Hfifar) or attacked and exploited, their populations killed or abducted en masse (such as the case of Virinat when the Elachi attack). Eventually, the Romulan Republic was founded on Tau Dewa III. Romulan empire territory was split between the Empire and the Republic and a state of war exists between them.
Yea, I mentioned that it would devestate their influence at the end of the video. STO isn't concerned strictly canon, so I haven't included it in the main stay of the series. May do it as a book end.
It's an officially licensed product so the way I see it it's as close to canon as you're gonna get.
Hah, well in theory then 'Startrek the Experience' in las vegas was also a canon experience. :P Though I see what you're saying. Definetly.
I hate the Republic/Star Empire crap that followed Hobus. I can tolerate the Kelvin-verse post Into Darkness, but I hate how it had to gimp the Romulans in the Prime Time line post Hobus, even if STO is Soft Trek.
But didn't the Romulans lose all their ships in the final battle for Cardassia? I remember it being mentioned that the Romulan flank was completely crippled and that their flagship was destroyed.
The destruction of a fleet (which I don't think was complete destruction) - doesn't mean they don't have other defense fleets.
@@LoreReloaded the Romulan fleet involvements for the battle of cardassia were probably the smallest numerically compared to the other Alpha Quadrant allied powers. So I think you have a point the Romulans kinda represent the United States immediately after WW2 the power that was put in the most advantageous position.
Remember Picard and Sisko fucked up Romulans best.
Thank you. I always thought the Paramount folks totally misread this storyline with "Nemesis." The Romulans would have been in a very strong position. I always felt they should have had Diane Duane write the film, along with the DS9 writers.
I think romulans were the biggest threat..though that's relative..
Then there's the system J-25
#neverforget
Who of thought...under the "right circumstances, Picard could turned out like Hitler...:p
Also, i commented 5 times. Is dat enough for you...:)
woot for comments! Yea, this series is based solely on Wolf 359 - not any of the future events.