Where was the ENTERPRISE During the Dominion War?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- The Enterprise is a name among the Federation that inspired hope and drove the frontier of exploration and development within Starfleet, so where was it during the Dominion War?
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Even just a mention of the EntE in dialog in action during the Dominion War arc would be enough to satisfy Trek fans without taking away from DS9 itself. The taking of Betazed would have been perfect aa perfect opportunity for this. Or an update on the repairs to the Defiant after the Battle of Sector 001, or again just dialog to explain the ship's absence along with Worf. Just tie it in through dialog without having to show the Enterprise screen.
Honestly, as much as I'd desperately agree with you, I can see this as being something that got tied up in production hells on a small scale sense. It's almost never the actual staff in charge of these teams who make those mess ups as much as producers, and although I can't really fathom why Berman would exclude even a dialogue inclusion for the E, I *can* easily see how the chain of command easily would've messed it all up.
"Oh and make sure there's a mention of the new Enterprise."
"Wait, so we're revealing that now? On DS9? I'll have to get the FX crew up t----"
"NO! I do NOT want to see *ANY* VFX of the Enterprise E on DS9!!!"
"Ok gotcha boss" *scribbles on clipboard*
Adar Ru'afo (F. Murray Abraham), the Son'a Captain spearheading their efforts to conquest, tartly chided Captain Picard (Patrick Stewart) about "the Borg, the Dominion", etc., to argue that the United Federation of Planets was outdated, in Star Trek: Insurrec- tion (1997, Paramount, Jonathan Frakes, Jerry Goldsmith).
It might have actually been done quietly. Of course they would have just said "Enterprise" and not a letter designation. It would have cruised under the radar for sure as "the Federation Fleet" anyway (like 'yeah do we need a marching band for the ship? Oh please!' )
Completely agree. I remember Weyoun mentioning the Son’a needing help near the end of the war, which was an obvious hint at Insurrection. But a little more would have been nice. Like you said, mentioning Betazed would have been perfect. I loved that the Enterprise is mentioned pushing back the Breen in STO, which was cool. And some mention of the Borg attack would have been cool.
I would have loved a 9/11 sort of episode at DS9 during the battle of 001, where the crew at DS9 has to sit in tension while they know what is going on at Earth. Ben and Jake being worried about Mr Sisko. Ben having ptsd. Bashir being worried for his parents and Jadzia being worried for Worf.
Yeah, FC aired in 1996. DS9 went on till 1999. Baring the one year shakedown cruise... there were two years of possibility to incorporate the Sovereign into the show... However...
Narrative is sometimes put ahead of production. And production is King. Without preproduction and production staff, nothing can happen. So while I'm always interested in the internal narrative, the production narrative ultimately wins out. And sometimes that means contractual obligations, budget constraints etc...
In my headcannon, Starfleet recognized that Picard was a better diplomat than warfighter. That's why they had the Enterprise-E (which was powerful enough not to need escorts) doing diplomatic and core security missions.
What I didn't understand was why Riker and Data were allowed to remain on the Enterprise. Starfleet needed experienced command officers to replace the ones lost in battle. Why didn't they have commands of their own?
I'm sure they had given up on Riker after already offering him multiple commands. Perhaps some prejudice against Data was still present too.
@@spockskynet Its call orders. Officer go were they are sent. Not let me think about.
@@titan_d9795 Starfleet has a tendency to be a bit lax with the whole "orders" thing. Especially for their more favored officers.
@@titan_d9795 you can decline promotion in the military. I have seen it done were people willing turn down Climbing through the ranks. In most cases its a career killer but it's not unheard of
@@mikefischer8576 I agree if you don't make rank in determined time frame, your career is over.
Still should have seen at least one sovereign in the 'Final' battle.
Agreed, even if it wasn't the Enterprise-E, it'd been nice to see a Sovereign Class vessel in the Dominion War
💯. Retcon in Picard.
@@deeacosta2734 Agreed
Budget 🤑😞😥
Everyone else knew DS9 was not star Trek
Wanting DS9 to be its own thing is totally understandable but you could have naturally included some passing mentions of what the Enterprise had been up to since O’Brien and Worf would naturally have been curious.
The only time they did was during the Miles O'Brien tribunal episode where D was mentioned to be part of a DMZ force.
Actually, the movie that ended up being Insurrection should have been an all-out TNG Dominion War movie, right smack in the middle of DS9’s 6th season.
Considering how modern Picard series has ignored DS9 in favor of VOY I am glad DS9 never brought up the Enterprise.
Section 31 seems to be the only thing Star Trek wants to acknowledge from DS9. I mean there's a functioning wormhole and Picard and Discovery (since season 3) hasn't mentioned it. Hopefully we get that DS9 fix from Lower Decks.
I remember an episode of DS9 where Admiral Ross told Sisco that the Enterprise was leading a task force to retake BataZ. can't remember which episode it was, it was very short and they moved on to talk about something else
2:05 This is the only time we see the USS Defiant do what it was designed to do - fighting Borg.
Also the place where the Sovereign, Saber, Akira and Steamrunner did "what they were made to do".
We should consider the fact that during first contact much of the Enterprise interior was completly assimilated and when they got back to earth they would have had to strip away all the borg stuff. Remember that the borg assimilate walls floors and ceilings as well, so a large portion of the interior would have had to have been completely rebuilt from scratch, which im just guessing could have taken months or longer.
Easily months probably several
great point. Imma use that one in my head cannon, furthermore you dont just refit a ship with direct replacements, you use dry dock time for upgrades. That entire idea youve presented easily covers why the enterprise sat out the war, refits, upgrades, and the point about it being a flagship works well here, to. You pu your best technology in your flagship as a show of force. So that refit and upgrae due to the borg assimilation would have been top priority.
Cant have the flagship looking weak.
You’re correct about that. And to take it a one step further I wish they would’ve addressed this in the card season two when they talked about the new USS stargazer with the Borg technology used in the ship from the “artifacts“ and that would’ve been a perfect time for them to mention the enterprise E as well. One has to imagine that Starfleet got their start on the stargazer by the experience of the enterprise E and the Borg attack.
There's a Star Trek novel out there that takes a different path after the Enterprise-E comes back to its present timeline after defeating the Borg in the past. Starfleet contacts Picard and the Enterprise immediately after returning, but what they tell Captain Picard comes as a massive shock to him. A war has started.....between the Klingon Empire and the Romulans, but due to the alliance between the Klingons and the Federation (which never ended in this timeline because of the Dominion), they ask for the Federation's help and they agreed to help the Klingon Empire and General Martok specifically asks for Captain Picard's help in a certain sector. The war should've been pretty easy with the Romulans being defeated, but the war takes extremely unusual turns that prolong it and make no sense. In this timeline, the Cardassians never gave up Bajor and during most of the war, they've been unusually quiet. Soon though the Cardassians re-emerge with a major surprise to the Federation and a group of people from Terok Nor come to the Federation to warn them of something far more serious going on. It's a very good book to read.
@@Defiant6 What's its title?
I think Enterprise was the command ship of THIRD Fleet that remained in position to protect Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar, Denobula etc whilst SECOND, FIFTH, and NINTH Fleets moved to retake DS9 during "Operation Return"
It's almost certain that Enterprise participated in destroying the Breen attack fleet that attacked Starfleet HQ in early 2375
The fact Enterprise and THIRD Fleet remained to protect Earth etc, probably significantly deterred the Dominion from taking advantage of the situation to launch a full scale attack on Earth. The deterrence effect of the Federation flagship and Third fleet was significant.
Plus allowed time for SEVENTH fleet to be reconstituted/regenerated after the failed attack on the Tyra system.
Sometimes your most important Chess pieces need to hold a position to allow an offensive strategy to work.
I thought the capitals defence fleet were the 1st fleet? Stationed at Sol.
I do believe that part of the Temporal cold war arc of Star Trek Online includes the Breen attack, and the USS Enterprise is mentioned as being present (correct me if I’m wrong)
Given the effectiveness of smaller Jem Hadar attack ships against capital ships and how effective Defiant and Bird of Prey class ships were in countering them it makes sense that the Enterprise wouldn't have been front and center for many battles. Similar to how battleships took a back seat to submarines and aircraft carriers in WW2.
Frankly, the Enterprise E was sidelined most of the time with repairs.. Starfleet had to undo the damage and partial assimilation by the Borg and loss of the main deflector dish. Later, after the battle with the Son’A, it was damaged, lost its Warp Core, and probably burned out the engines that weren’t built for Briar Patch operations. And of course after the war, it was severely damaged in a battle against the Scimitar, losing half its saucer section.
I like the idea that the EntE was the peacekeeper, either for diplomatic reasons, to prevent other species from joining the Dominion, or to keep others in line given the instability the Dominion war was causing.
Two of the Star Trek: Dominion War series of books deals with the Enterprise-E's activities. Book 1 is Behind Enemy Lines and Book 3 is Tunnel Through the Stars. The crew of the Enterprise-E has to prevent the creation of an artificial wormhole by the Dominion.
They were were alright. Decent enough reads.
I read those and I enjoyed them. They brought back Ro Laren too, which I enjoyed.
While that's significant, the point that rick had brought forth was the absolute absence of Sovereign Class vessels, Enterprise-E or otherwise, being featured onscreen involved in the dominion war
@@karlsmith2570 I understand the point of the video. I'm making the statement that in Beta cannon they weren't just sent away from conflict areas, but were actual participants in the war.
Sounds like a better plot of a movie than Insurrection or Nemesis. >__>
What always irked me about the TNG movies was that thier plots didn't involved the greater Trek continuity at all, and as a result they were all small, self-contained and unimportant feeling. The TOS movies dealt heavily with plots and events from the TOS series, from the Klingons to freaking Khan. If TNG did a movie with Lor as the villain or about the Dominion War, then I think a lot of people would've been a lot more interested, instead of just the constant Bottle-show: The Movie we got.
First Contact is the only TNG movie that worked because it's the only one that tied into the damn series and Trek continuity...
Along with the galaxy x class, the lack of sovereign class ships in the dominion war was a missed opportunity.
They could have at least mentioned the enterprise in battle reports.
Isn't the galaxy x alternative future only. Does it exist in the main time line?
@@sillysailor5932 yeah but they say in canon that they refitted galaxy class ships to be more suitable for war, it would have been cool to show those war time refits as the galaxy class x design, the old show don't tell rule, plus it would have been a cool thing for long time fans and answered why the enterprise D in the alternate timeline had those upgrades. It just seemed to me the perfect time if any to have that design in the main timeline.
The prototype USS Sovereign was finally launched in 2370, followed two years later by the USS Enterprise-E after the destruction of the USS Enterprise-D. The Enterprise later faced the Borg during their incursion of Federation space in 2373.
They didn't have that many Sovereign class vessels prior to the Dominion War (2373 to 2375). USS Sovereign was launched in 2370, and the Enterprise in 2372.
I don't think any of the others had been commissioned by the end of the war.
And while the Sovereign-class was not a key player in the Dominion War, ST: Insurrection said that the Sovereign class, including the Enterprise-E spent time during the war putting out diplomatic "brush fires" and extending the occasional olive branch, as the Federation Diplomatic Corps were busy attempting to put an end to the war.
Wasn't the Enterprise E pretty much a prototype in and of itself?
Like in modern shipbuilding and airframe building, a clean sheet design is often fraught with problems. These problems are to be expected with a totally new design snd most of them are teething isues. Airframe is less so a matter of trial and error as any problems substantial enough to cause designers to change things on them can often be fatal flaws, hence why manufacturers such as Airbus and Boeing planes havent really changed much in terms of the basic design. Their aircraft work, theyre proven safe (mostly) and any major new designs are too risky a venture above making them safer, more efficient snd cheaper to build.
So to use an irl perspective, why build an entirely new hull frame when previous ships got the job done, were proven to work, were safe and any repairs and parts were so common because (for example) the Enterprise D was a small line of around 20-30 identical ships, so logistically'the docks and staff training to maintain them were already there.
I think the Enterprise E, aside from looking cool (which it did) was, to use a modern day parlance, a commercial failure, despite the fact they dont use money in the 24th century.
The Enterprise E was iconic because it was new, it was powerful, it jad novelty and itbwas rare because like only 2 were ever made.
Or just go with the Enterprise-E being used for political negotiations to get additional reinforcements for the war. So you could have the Ent-E on the front line, or you could have the Sheliak 3rd Task Group on the left flank. You could have the Ent-E on the front line, or you could have the Evora (the race at the beginning of Insurrection) sending shipments of materials to help build new ships. You could have the Ent-E helping to stop an enemy advance, or Picard asking Kevin Uxbridge to protect a couple vulnerable planets.
Picard is an excellent diplomat, and I'd see Starfleet using him in exactly that capability. Let alone if Ent-E got damaged/destroyed, the morale loss would affect others (lots of Starfleet cadets want to sign up on the Enterprise, so it is already known as a flagship).
I think that the big E suffered the same fate as the Yamato during WW2. While they were the pride of the fleet, they were too precious to waste on front line battles where they'd be a morale target. I assume after the battle of sector 001, she was kept near Earth as a "big stick" to defend the planet, though in truth the fleet was afraid to lose the ship. She'd be sent on the occassional "show of force" tour or used for diplomatic purposes, but deliberately kept out of the thick of combat on the front lines.
Remember that the Enterprise just so happens to be the only ship in range. Every single time.
I would disagree with that assessment. The reason why Yamato was kept out of most of the fighting, is because she was obsolete in terms of use and couldn't always be utilized properly since there were planes that far outranged her guns before enemy ships even got into range. The Sovereign class Enterprise-E is state of the art, designed to fight as well as explore, and should be leading battles in command of small fleets against the Dominion as a flagship with Picard with a promotion to fleet captain and/or billet ranked into Commodore.
@@djargus Just remember the Jem Hadar love their suicide rams that ship is a big fat target and there is not alot of defense against ramming in star trek
@@beagleboygaming1701 Then the Galaxy Class is vulnerable too and they still use that in battles against the Dominion. The main tactic that works against those Jem Hadar fighters, blowing them up before they impact.
@@djargus the founders don't care about the Jem Hadar if they ordered an entire squadron just to ram the enterprise on a wim form different directions I wild not be surprised and would know were it is because they have great spies
Here's my explanation:
Bajor was near the edge of Federation-explored space, so while most of the fleet was sent to Bajoran and Cardassian territory to deal with the Dominion War, _someone_ had to patrol the other side of Federation space, which was weeks away at high warp. It made perfect sense for the flagship to patrol the "safe" half of Federation space while it underwent its shakedown, while the ships that were already combat-ready handled the Dominion War. Not to mention, if the Dominion had managed to destroy the Enterprise-E, it would've been a huge PR victory for them and an equally huge PR defeat for the Federation. So there are multiple reasons why it was too risky for the Enterprise-E to get involved with the Dominion War without several years of dependable service under its belt already.
Agreed. I’ve actually talked about this with friends in the past.
Yes, I totally have subscribed to this and Insurrection definitely plants firm roots in the ground that is the case. There are other duties involved than just the direct war front. Federation is huge, so many outlying colonies of just the main worlds itself where issues can pop up. Exploration must also continue onwards and the Enterprise is well suited for it having the best of the best of Starfleet (established in canon), to which sending that highly talented crew to the frontlines when mobilization efforts had years to plan (i.e. Dominion war was no Wolf 359, not even close) is asinine.
Yes. The fact that the Dominion/Cardassians were able to not only occupy Betazed, but also if I recall, Bolarus & Benzar, proved the importance of the UFP defending its core territory. If anything, they needed *more* ships doing that.
I agree.
However, as Picard said, there are more letters in the alphabet.
Even if the Enterprise E was destroyed, there would be an Enterprise F.
Biggest reason is that Enterprise series are not warships, their reason for existence are not about war making, since it houses a lot of civilian population too. Starfleet has built warships like Defiant for that purpose, not the job of Enterprise series flagship.
The absence of the Enterprise from the war makes sense (except maybe during critical all-or-nothing battles) considering that dozens of vessels had to be diverted away from their regular duties to fight the Dominion. A war might be going on, but in the meantime the Federation still exists and has other issues that can't just be forgotten. A lot of slack needs picking up, and an ultra-advanced flagship with a near-legendary crew goes a long way towards doing that.
I would also like to add: it was my understanding that both the Intrepid and Sovereign class vessels had maximum warp "cruising" speeds that exceeded a majority of the fleet. As such, those vessels were used in roles that didn't "slow them down" so that other ships could keep pace. Whether that was diplomacy, scouting, or even on occasion some skirmishing.
I think we sorta get an answer in, of all things, Discovery season 2. In the 2256 Klingon War, the Admiral Cornwall tells Pike that Federation sent the original Enterprise into deep space as a continuity-of-civilization plan. The Enterprise was kept in deep space to continue her scientific mission, and if the Federation fell, it was to start a new one. I suspect that something somewhat similar happened here.
That's actually a good point.
The look on Pike’s face when he was told that was hilarious.
He was shocked, honored and humbled all in the same moment.
To be told that you are so highly respected that you are considered the best hope to re-establish the Federation. 🤯
I'd rather ignore the events of STD.
Never mention Discovery ever again. 🤮
This policy is similar to what happened during WW1 here: the major ocean liners were not used on the field of battle, but were given "auxiliary" duties such as neutral hospital ships (though they did later on become troop transports). The reasoning was the same: they were too valuable and important to be risked to a U-Boat or mine. The LUSITANIA was kept on the route through the danger zone, and we all know what happened to her. A MAURETANIA, AQUITANIA or OLYMPIC was too valuable an asset to risk, and it was avoided to put them in harms way if possible.
I just always assumed the Enterprise was running their own vital war missions at the time but we never got to see the scenes where the DS-9 crew mentioned them.
I can't believe they would have intentionally kept them out of the fight.
I actually noticed in the last season of DS9 they do mention the Sona a fair few times. I think that films released before ds9 ended but based after the war.
I think INS is supposed to be set between the cease fire following the battle of Cardassia and the armistice being signed on DS9.
Personally I think it’s a shame they cut Quark’s cameo from INS…!
I think insurrection was just after the war. Riker said "the diplomatic corps are busy with Dominion negotiations". Its highly unlikely the dip corps were able to negotiate anything during the full scale war.
@@christiananstes4161 it could be just before the Romulans join the war as they mentioned peace feelers are being used which would be the diplomatic core but that's season 6 not 7
@@christiananstes4161 no I was wrong in my comment above - I’m not sure where I got that idea from (possibly the comment of “dominion negotiations” I thought referred to negotiating the armistice after the Female Changeling ordered the ceasefire).
But… Memory Alpha postulates that INS takes place between the events of DS9 “it’s only a paper moon” and “field of fire”, since the Worf only appears in the intro to the former (and that episode covers a fair amount of time), and then only reappears mid way through the latter episode.
It’s annoying really because they left certain details out of INS (like the death of Jadzia, which was originally going to be mentioned) because the powers that be didn’t think people would be able to follow what was going on as the assumption was that fans of TNG wouldn’t necessarily be watching DS9.
9:30 "Another Enterprise" is a phrase I can't hear without thinking of the season 1 finale of Lower Decks when the Titan arrives to save the day.
So a simple answer is that any ship commanded by Picard was for diplomacy, not battle, and while he would engage from time to time it was his battle-savvy crew that won the day. Picard while respected is not relied upon as a wartime captain.
That sounds kinda… EXTREMELY stupid, for one they’re in a war where if they lose, BILLIONS will die, they’re gonna need every ship they can, and two, even if that was the case, they could pluck Picard away from the Enterprise, put another Captain there and send ‘em to the war
@@L1z43vr jelico would be perfect
@@gabrielfranco1899 ANYONE would be preferable, even Wesley… Scratch that. Even Captain Kirk’s rocky corpse
@@gabrielfranco1899 Exactly, pluck Picard and give the Big E to Jelico, a war dog who knows how to fight. There isn't always an alternative to fighting and while Picard would be looking to talk his way out Jelico would have already won the battle.
I can see Jellico already commanding another Sovereign class ship in that time. While a new and expensive design, they surely had more of the type.
Just like with the Galaxy, by the time the war was out, we see Galaxies everywhere, and that wasn't a ship build for war. One of the first skirmishes with the Dominion sees Starfleet losing one (when the Jem Hadar went for ramming)
You mentioned that Insurrection takes place before the Battle of Sol, but the dialogue in Insurrection contradicts that.
"The diplomatic corps is busy with Dominion Negotiations", which presumably occur *after* the war was over, since the dominion was not negotiating much of anything in 2375 until after the end of the war.
It depends upon what kind of negotiations there.
Prisoner exchanges and similar things along with attempts at cease fires and the like would be covered there, plus Dominion Negotiations could easily be a catch all for anything related to the war such as getting information from other groups and similar
the negotiations were after they took back ds9 not are the war
There were several breaks in the war where I think the Federation reached out with an olive branch to end hostilities. I remember Martok stating how the Dominion would pull back their lines to form a strong defensive posture, only to rebuild stronger before pushing out again. Meaning the Dominion probably employed this tactic often where the Federation would see this as an opportunity for diplomacy, which buys the Dominion time to rebuild and rearm.
@@HeadlessChickenTO good point but I was saying that when they took back ds9 the minefield was still up so no reinforced dominion to help them and no white for the jem
There were negotiations during season 6, Statistical Probabilities. That may have been the reference or another off screen effent.
It also makes sense to use one of the fastest (and most well armed) ships in the fleet as a patrol ship/first responder to cover for several posts left vulnerable to opportunist attackers with the majority of the fleet called to the front lines. The Sovereign class is a well rounded powerhouse on its own, but most of its advantages aren't as useful in a large scale battle. It can do more when working on its own to quell smaller conflicts.
And then there's the mental state of Picard. While he was still capable of regular duty, the years had clearly taken their toll on him. His irrational behavior during First Contact when faced with the Borg again would have reached the ears of the admiralty, even if just by way of crew member reports. Sending him into a similar situation with the Cardassians (due to his trauma from the imprisonment and torture) may have been too much of a risk for them - but it's not something to revoke a person's command over just to have a specific ship in the battle.
I really enjoyed the Battle of Betazed book, it added a lot of interesting detail to the Betazoids and the Dominion War
Insurrection implies that the Enterprise was on diplomatic duty during the war, which honestly makes sense to me as someone would have had to do it and it plays to Picard's particular strengths as a captain. Between the two, Riker has always been depicted as more of the combat officer.
Picard is many things, but a combat fleet admiral is not one of them. Also in terms of morale, risking the Enterprise wouldn't be worth it compared to using it symbolically. Keeping in mind that if any ship was going to survive a deep strike ambush by the Dominion, it's likely the Enterprise.
@@Sorain1 Yeah, as much as I love the character of Picard, he's not a combat commander.
It never made much sense to me that Starfleet would seek out races like the Evora during the Dominion War. Why waste valuable time, resources (and the flagship!) on vowing to protect a race with next to 0 strategic importance? You're having trouble enough not losing the actual Federation to the enemy. Win the war, then expand again...
I may be off base on this (it's been a long time since I watched any Trek show) but perhaps their world was in a vital strategic location, so Starfleet needed to secure it before their enemies.
Gah, Insurrection's story made so little sense in it's own context and even less in the greater Trek continuity.
Could've just changed the names and had it be any random Sci-fi movie. Honestly, that's the case for all TNG movies aside from First Contact. It was the only one that had any relevance to the TNG series and star trek as a whole.
I thought the Evora membership talks were happening in the brief window when the Federation and the Dominion were in an armirestice. The one negotiated at the time when Bashir met his genetically engineered cousins. For Picard was talking like the War with the Dominion was on hold at the time.
As for why the Federation would have bothered, the planet probably housed valuable materials unreplicable and/or strategically important. For while you question why the Enterprise was sent to seek out races like the Evora, no one asks why would a race that only reaches the stars within a year like the Evora would want to get involved. That would be like the USA getting involved in the French Revolution as it was busy building its government and had no standard military force yet.
The only reason I see is the Dominion was threatening or may have conquered their world briefly before they were liberated after the Federation successfully took DS9. And the only reason why is the planet is valuable and they may see the Federation maybe the only chance to survive, and Starfleet sent its most powerful ship to convince them the Federation can protect their world.
'Armistice', not 'armrest'.
@@teresaravenshaw5477 Fixed.
I have this headcanon that Insurrection took place shortly after the war. This would explain the relaxed attitude of the Enterprise crew towards the Dominion. There is the "Word agrument". It was said that he would return to DS9 after the end of the Briar Patch mission. But at the end of DS9 he left for Q'onos to become ambassador. However this either never came to be (in Nemesis he serving under Picard again) or he just didn't immediately left for Q'onos.
Word was aboard the Enterprise for Nemesis because he happened to be onboard for the wedding when things went down.
@@williammobley9634, I thought so too, except that he’s still there, overseeing ship repairs, a few months later.
I believe ( insurrection) was set during the ds9 episode with the genetically augmented ( but disabled) group ( season 6 ) nemesis is almost 4 years after the dominion war.
@@michaeldemarco9950 i was attending the wedding ( 4 years after) he when back to the Klingons, but resigned and became a general ( and adviser to chancellor martok ) ( they retconed it later ) making him xo and then captain of the enterprise. ( possibly)
Insurrection is set during the Dominion war. Picard mentions the loses and the Son`a where the main suppliers of ketracel white to the Dominion
On the one hand, I don't think the Dominion would particularly recognize the Enterprise's fame and specifically target her over the rest of Fleet. The Cardassians, on the other hand, might.
Weyoun wouldn't have needed much convincing from Dukat to see the value in targeting it. He understood the value in demoralized troops after the destruction of the Defiant.
They don't have to personally feel the reputation of the name, they only need to know it enjoys such a reputation for it to become a target.
Fame no power and size yes it would be an instant target for a dozen reasons and the name isn’t even in the top 10
The Dominion recognized the importance of Earth for the war. They would clearly see the importance of a high profile ship as well.
They would as she was the Federation flagship. The Cardassians would have said destroy her and that damages morale as she has saved Earth against the Borg on several occasions.
One thing not specifically mentioned in the video that I think contributed to this, was that star fleet saw the sovereign class as kind of a “one ship fleet”. It was powerful enough to hold its own and could carry out various missions in federation space without the need of an escort, allowing star fleet to divert more resources to the front lines.
The Sovereign class, like the Defiant, was built specifically to fight Borg cubes. It would make sense that the Federation wouldn't leave itself vulnerable to another Borg rush to Sector 001 by sending its Sovereign battleships to fight the Dominion. The Sovereign class was state of the art at the time, and given its size and complexity, it makes sense they were few in number, and thus kept in reserve, Enterprise-E included.
But, in all reality, the real reason why the Enterprise didn't show up in DS9 was because as soon as Picard & crew would show up, Picard would have pulled all the strings and taken command of the whole thing like he did against the Cube in First Contact, leaving the DS9 cast as sidekicks in their own show. Sisko may be a badass and all that, but he has nowhere near the respect and influence that Picard had at the time.
For my understanding it is a HUGE disgrace that the BIG E was kept away from frontline combat! The Sovereign was designed to kick arse! And not using it was just a waste of potential!
@Darth Revan I know. Still it is a bummer.
So here’s a point I’ve seen/heard on some of the Star Trek fan videos, I can’t remember where, sadly: the Sovereign class came about as a ship for dealing with the Borg because they needed something more capable than the Galaxy class for dealing with them.
As much as fighting the Dominion is an important thing to consider, it’s not quite the same as fighting the Borg, and the worst-case scenarios of losing to the Borg are truly existential for all, and that can happen frighteningly fast with the Borg by contrast.
From a Big Picture POV, what would be the best time for the Borg to attack? When their objectives were distracted and not providing much resistance, because despite all their intimidation, resistance is not futile.
Keeping at least one Sovereign class ship out of the Dominion war as much as possible falls under the category of keeping some of your powder dry, just in case.
@@strictnonconformist7369 yeah, makes sense. And still... In the chronicles there is no "if"... There is only "did not take part in the Dominion War". For such a prominent ship this is truly a loss of reputation.
@@ralfhtg1056 ultimately, it all came down to what the writers and producers decided to actually ship as our shippable ship fiction, and without asking them, we can’t be certain that they even consciously thought about it and wrote any story to account for what they did and why they did it.
But, it’s an interesting thing in story-telling: there is a point where the story isn’t as palatable where there are too many details set in stone without an element of mystery that allows people to read/listen to them and think about the unstated parts.
@@strictnonconformist7369 why have we never seen Dominion vs Borg? Have the Dominion ever encountered the Borg? Do they even know the Borg even exist? And if there ever was an encounter what was the outcome?
If you're going non-canon, there are books that talk about the Enterprise being involved in numerous skirmishes at the beginning of the Dominion War. As well as Captain Picard going undercover with Ro Laren to destroy an artificial wormhole the Dominion was trying to create.
It's criminal that they didn't do a 2 part episode on DS9 that had a crossover with the TNG crew and Enterprise during season 6 or 7 of DS9. I think many of us were sincerely hoping for that!
Nichelle Nichols (Lt. Uhura) passed away. 89 years old. May she rest in peace.
So the Enterprise was kept away from the Dominion because it was so new it wasn't fully paid off yet?
What if it wasn't fully insured?
On that note, DON'T get Ship Insurance from Quark!!
They defeated the Borg at the time, not just anyone, the BORG. I’d say it paid off perfectly.
Thanks for this video - very much appreciated!
Excellent premise Rick, I'm super excited to see this one
Thank you for this. I've always wondered about the exploits of the Enterprise during that time.
The explaination that always made the most sense to me was that eh Federation wanted to pretend that it still cared about it's morals and values, and Picard Tacitly understood this and so accepted peaceful internal missions, and federation high command explicito understood this and kept it out of the fighting.
That way it all looked good on paper.
Effectively it was a political move more than tactical.
Another channel, I believe it was Venom Geek also added that sending them around from system to system was also a symbol of strength, showing members worlds that the federation still had power.
Got to also remember the Federation represents worlds that are pacifists, or only joined for scientific exploration reasons, and not for political conquest. It's not a unified war-monger culture like the Klingons, Romulans, or arguably even the Cardassians. Thus, these other Federation worlds must be kept appeased by continuing to have exploratory purposes as well as keeping unified strength through continuing trade, diplomatic, and scientific missions that had no direct connection to the Dominion conflict. Else, if they weren't kept happy, they would easily move to vote themselves out of the union, leaving the Federation with a resource deficit at the worst possible time.
Thank you!
This was a really good video! I was really invested! 😁
The Sovereign class is the most beautiful Trek ship ever. I've loved it ever since that first scene of First Contact.
An excellent video. Thank you.
Excellent video sir, thank you very much! I’ve been quite curious about where the other series’ ships/stations were and what their duties comprised of during the large conflicts/events throughout other shows, like you did here for the Dominion War for example.
I always wondered what was going on with the Federation while Voyager was on it’s long voyage home too.
Great presentation chaps.
The galaxy class held the lines instead which was a joy to see them in battle..
Solid content, thxs!
I might be misremembering, but I'm fairly certain Star Trek Online confirms that the Enterprise is one of the ships which broke the Breen invasion of Earth during the Dominion War.
During the mission "Vorgon Conclusions," where you travel back in time to that invasion, you can read news reports about how the battle is going, and I think it's on one of them that the Enterprise is mentioned specifically.
Yep, the news reports say that the E is a large part of driving off the Breen.
I read the book on the battle for Betazed so many times as a kid. Those stories would've made for a great anthology spinoff, although these days it should probably be animated since the actors are so much older now.
Awesome essay. Thank you, Rick.
No the real reason is not that DS9 didn't want to add the Enterprise to its own story, it had nothing to do with the Enterprise at all. The reason we didn't see the Sovereign class take part in the Dominion war as because the Viacom split had occurred at the time (the event that started the irreparable damage to Star Trek) and the rights to DS9 were owned by CBS, the rights to the Sovereign class were owned by Paramount, and Paramount knocking its own TNG movies out at the time wanted exclusivity on the Sovereign which was their poster child for the movies. It was simply a rights issue.
I was halfway to mentioning Pike's ship in Discovery, but I see you already have it covered. It's interesting to see the parallels to the situations, and their responses.
I felt like Discovery Season 2s explanation retroactively helped me understand this
Good job putting together this video. 👍🧡🔥
It feels like the Enterprise was prevented from living up to her name. That is a tragedy.
As tough as the Dominion war was on the Federation, I'd think they'd make use of every available starship at their disposal. The thought of the Enterprise sitting out the war and being kept out of harms way for morale is a bit absurd imo. As powerful as the Sovereign class was, I'd think the EntE would take part in numerous important battles regardless.
Damn, of course you're just telling us what the official materials are saying, but it's a bit of a bummer that all the extended universe fiction has to tie things together so 'neatly' with having to make everything a reference to some other canon lore. My issue here is that it really makes no sense that the Dominion space station orbiting Betazed would get a Cardassian name. Like, sure, Cardassia was an ally of the Dominion, but it the show made it extremely clear that it was not an alliance built on trust or respect, just a means for the Dominion to divide and conquer the Alpha Quadrant, they would help Cardassia play out their little war against Bajor, but did not actually want Cardassia to be a significant power. It really just sounds like the writer of that story loved the Terok Nor and Empok Nor station names so much that they had to go with the same naming convention for the Dominion station even though it really made no lore sense (unless it was thoroughly explained in the story, which I admit I haven't read).
That's the type of thing one of the multitude of people working on a show would catch, but a single writer could easily mess up.
Given some of the lines that are given in DS9, it'd actually be hard to have the Enterprise not involved in the Dominion War.
For, while they never get into specifics in DS9, they do mention that the Federation takes heavy losses throughout the Dominion War episodes. And to a degree, a lot of this plays out when they had an episode that shows the actual battles. You end up seeing several Miranda class ships get wrecked, along with an Excelsior, and so on. And in battles that were supposed to be particularly rough, even a Galaxy class ship gets damaged, at least. So, with these kinds of losses, it'd be unlikely that the Federation would really be able to keep ships and crews out of the fight for long. Particularly when noting in the episode that brings the Romulans in that it is mentioned that the Federation was taking losses at a rate that they might not be able to win if the fight kept going.
And early in the Dominion War, while they are often rather vague about a lot of the specifics regarding Dominion moves, there are lines that indicate that Dominon had pushed DEEP into the Federation to a point where they were rather close to Vulcan by the time that "Operation Return" was launched. So, not only was the Federation taking heavy losses, but a Federation founder world was at least threatened, which would mean that the Federation had lost a LOT of territory early in the war. And while the Federation may have had a large "mothball fleet" that could be reactivated for something like the Dominion War, the loss of so much territory would likely mean that much of those ships in storage (seen in TNG) were destroyed by the Dominon as they passed them.
The result... is that I'd actually find it probable that the Enterprise would have HAD to have been involved in the conflict in some ways. Perhaps on more minor fronts, but it couldn't avoid the fighting, given the scale and everything else that is mentioned.
Theres always skirmishes with Jem'Hadar raiders and minor fleet actions. DS9 for the most part just discusses the major fleet actions, like the 7th fleet being annihilated, Operation Return, a Bolian operation, the battle of Chin'Toka which was a running battle for most of the war.
Its entirely possible the Enterprise undertook some form of skirmish duties to show the flagship kicking Dominion ass
The Enterprise-E Was A Rechristen Because That Particular Ship Was Initially Named Something Else
Tails of the Dominion War changed how I viewed "Trek Warfare" - I read that book long before I had access to Memory Alpha, and the internet in general and it answered a ton of "questions" - and it was quite sad if you know what happened to Mr Homn. Still - reading about the Enterprise E leading the charge in the defense of Earth just picturing in my mind what that would look like - Starbase One and its space doors blasting open to reveal the makeshift avengers of Starfleet - BOOM! Now THAT would be amazing to see! If anyone on here enjoying the always epic content from C I and you have not read the book - please do so! ;)
I really wish we coulda seen the Ent-E kicking ass a lot more on screen, or even just pottering around and looking at spatial anomalies, honestly. It's a real shame we didn't!
i love that description of the enterprise "especially if it already has a name of please shot me"
Nice breakdown, definitely a better use of the Enterprise than as a tank in battle.
8:12 In Star Trek Online it was at Earth, Organizing and leading the Counterattack. Mission "Vorgon Conclusions".
Not the same details as what the Comic had, but mentioned.
1:07 I really like the deisng of THAT Sovereign, with the blue deflector dish, though I also have to giggle a little that the glow on the hull is yellow rather then coresponding blue, and I like the hull colouring too.
I actually wonder where the prototype itself, the Sovereign was during the Dominion War, maybe staying close to Earth or undergoing more upgrades with developing technologies - and of course refitting with more phaser arrays and torpedo launchers.
4:12 I have yet to see a ship in STO with the name Please Shoot Me - I might have to do one just for a laugh. don't know what the registry will be though
NCC-742637 (in 1337 speak)
@@fisk0 Great!
USS Enterprise and USS Soverign were also engaged in another skirmish as shown in Star Trek Bridge Commander.
Very cool video.
"I've been Rick..."
Hell yeah you have 🤘
In theory The Sovereign Class was the best of the best and The Federation wanted to keep that under wraps, so they dispatched older ships to deal with The Dominion!
Why blow your load all in 1 go?
Just grind down your enemies with older equipment then bring on the good stuff later on.
Russia's plan for Ukraine?
@@1MinuteFlipDoc The parallels are closely aligned!
Kind of. It's more like the sovereign class ship being the most powerful ship in their navy. Makes it ideal suited to patrol areas where star fleet had a significant draw down In order to send its fleets to the front. Essentially where they had to 10 starships stationed. In place of where they were patrolling they sent one starship they're most powerful starship the sovereign class USS enterprise.
Answers the question I didnt know I had
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every way shape and form and every detail possibly provided indeed👌.
In my head cannon, the Enterprise was assigned to the 10th fleet and was part of the training exercises when Betazed was taken and integral in taking back the planet is season long arc.
Voyager didn’t skip over the war per se, it was referenced in a Starfleet communique but because no one knew anything about it, it was only mentioned this one time.
3:00 always hated the whole flagship of the federation thing. There is no reason to ever do that, why make every other ship in the fleet feel smaller? Flagship is an admiral's ship leading a fleet not a random ship that 'is better than the rest because reasons'. It's nonsense for the exact reason you list for not having it in a battle. In fact if a flagship is damaged an admiral can 'transfer his flag' to another ship that becomes the flagship. Was done on both sides in the war of the Pacific in ww2.
Are you a communist?
I think what they are trying to say in the show was that the enterprise was the "pride of the navy." A term used today to describe a vessel that is considered to be the best in the fleet. They probably didn't want to say that term because then they'd have to acknowledge that star fleet is a navy and therefore a military organization.
@@madkabal sort of like having battle stars (not to be confused with Battlestar). Still makes no sense with a brand new ship. And don't get me started on the bridge crews that stay 90% the same for 7-10 years at a time.
In high school I recall them going on a lot of undercover missions during the dominion war. Where the E would always wipe the floor with the ships at the end despite not being finished
Most People didn’t know Picard and his crew face the Gorn in that time.
Good sensible argument.
0:17 even voyager got word of it and had it mentioned!
I seem to recall that when Worf first came to DS9 the Enterprise had been destroyed when it crashed into Veridian in the movies Star Trek Generations.
It does sort of make sense given the Enterprise crew's track record: They are galactic-class 'problem solvers' and given a powerful ship can often do the work of many vessels and a whole mission by themselves, solving crises and incidents alone and handling dangerous but not front line situations themselves. Having a *very* powerful ship solving issues behind the lines with an ace crew who are very experienced is a great way to take the strain off of logistics while also keeping them safe.
The criticisms about Riker and Data are valid to be honest, though. In reality they likely *would* have been ordered to take commands. I can *maybe* see this not happening if Starfleet views the crew of Enterprise as a whole as being too 'legendary' to risk their individual lives- by this point both Riker and Data likely have very significant notoriety. There is also some argument to be made that if they are going to hold Enterprise back but still want it to be useful that they may want her to have her absolute most capable crew since there is less chance of backup during the war when they are problem solving. I think if you combine all these reasons it's just enough justification for it to make sense to Starfleet in cannon. If this is the case though I would expect Enterprise to be operating *just behind* the front lines solving actual real crises and taking on some significant level of risk, as well as being sent solo well behind friendly lines to solve serious issues within the Federation when needed. Despite being the flagship if they're going to keep everyone together they do *need* to get significant value out of them, as it *was* a full scale war, so I do hope we get some cannon expansion of the lore stating as such
The Dominion war was also a turning point in how battles were fought - the USS Odyssey was sent in with escorts - and it was quickly realised that this much larger vessel had enough firepower and shielding to deal with a considerable number of attacking vessels, regardless of where they came from. So, instead of just firing, ships were directed to ram the larger vessel. The shields on the Odyssey were quickly depleted, and it was destroyed soon after.
This gave the Dominion a lot of information on how to deal with larger starships - the Federation shields are not designed to stop vessels intent on ramming - or at least, not for very long. Granted, no shields would hold out against such tactics forever, but it was something that the Federation hadn't expected.
Whilst the Enterprise 'E' had a lot more firepower and much heavier shielding - the Dominion would have just directed more ships to ram, and keep it up - and that would have given them even more information on how to deal with this new threat.
I wonder how long the E went without its core after its ejections in the Briar Patch. Does the fleet just have extra Sovereign cores in reserve and special speedy craft to ship them across the quadrant? Impulse power wouldn't get the E anywhere to rendezvous. Did it get a warp-tugboat to drag it to a shipyard?
Likely not. Special purpose built. Probably got be ordered for production but would take years to complete, particularly during the war period. It's a good point to make as the Enterprise may have been saddled for considerable time between Nemesis with the crew given temporary assignments in between.
They definitely do have warp tugboats, or just the nearest ship took a couple weeks to arrive and tractored them to the nearest docking facility. Who knows if they were waylaid for six weeks or six months though.
That's actually a decent, realistic explanation.
I can see them building different parts of the ships at once. So a warp core most likely was already ready for a different ship still under construction. And now we got this build ship without a core, lets just ship the existing core there and build another one for the other ship.
Just like they say in "Yesterday's Enterprise" One ship at a later point doesn't change anything, but the same ship during an earlier point can change the course of the war.
So transferring the warp core from one ship in construction to one already finished. So Starfleet most likely took any ship that wouldn't stand a chance in the war to transfer the core over. Maybe some old MIranda or Excelsior class. They have tons of these old ships around.
Other sovereigns would be under construction. Load that warp core onto a transport vessel and send it out to the E to be reintegrated.
Very good question
It was the Command ship of the 1st fleet that protected Earth in the later stages of the war and was present during the Breen attack on Earth.
A name that practically says "kill me." That was pretty good. I think a problem with DS9 and the movie series at the time was that, the producers didn't want the Enterprise to overshadow DS9, however it would have been fun to have a call out like they would do in Voyager, and was pretty clear in that show the Enterprise did hang around Earth for a while after the war, meaning it was probably assigned to a defensive fleet for some time. Nemesis even hints that this is pretty much the first time the ship leaves on a non-combat mission after the war. But I do believe that the death of Judzia should have been integrated more into Insurrection which I think takes place around that same time...I think. That would have been enough of a shout out for both series. Trek needed a central head like the MCU to manage all their stories. Had they had them, I think they could have found all sorts of ways to include the ship, even if in name only.
Niiice great QUESTION.Watching....👍🏾
How about the fact that the Borg caused it major damage in First Contact and it took time to repair the ship.
That would a good picard ep. him thinking about dominion war and he goes back to when he had to led fresh cadets into to stop the attack. that would give a nice since of present.
The simplest explanation is that the Enterprise was heavily engaged but just not mentioned in the show.
There is precdnce for this in Real world history too the USS Iowa and the IJN Yamato never fought each other as both were keep away from serous combat as they both meant more to their respective navies alive and safe then in Combat and maybe dead. Still odd in Star trek though that you don't see soverens fighting in the dominon war at all dispite the fact the Iowas did fight in WW2 just not the name sake.
The time for BBs was gone. Many in the Navy saw that in the inter war years. Pearl Harbor just confirmed it. There was no need for the Iowa to face off against the Yamato. Especially not when a carrier strike could take out either from over the horizon.
The Sovereign class was the most powerful Federation class of ships. A better example would be if Nimitz had held back his newest & best carriers. The answer if course is no, he didn't. Victories, victories led by the Enterprise would have been as valuable as the victory at Midway. The Enterprise defeat the Dominion in a few battles would stop them from hitting Earth the way victories against Japan stopped them from hitting the west coast, which would have so crushed morale that a US victory in the Pacific would have been impossible.
04:10 this made me just die laughing because it caught me off guard and then made me imagine a ship with that name just flying into the fight.
weaponizing empathy. that's awesome
This was a fun episode. It would be cool to see the fight against the Breen over Earth on the screen one day. Thank you very much for this thoughtful video. It makes a lot of sense.
Stay well out there everybody, and God bless you, friends. ✝️ :)
Could you imagine....The Dominion won the war. The Alpha Quadrant under Dominion control and then Voyager makes it way home!
Thanks RIck!
Interesting content about the Big E's involvement against the Breen thanks for sharing! I am curious how she fought against the Breen's Energy Disruptors that disable the vessel? We saw what happens to the USS Defiant and others so in my head the Enterprise was very lucky to have been away from the front lines, otherwise she would have been destroyed. A devastating lost to the Federation if that were to happen from resources, experienced crew, and fame as Rick stated in the video. GL HF Thanks again! :D
There a real-world example of powerful Capital ships being kept away from the front for prestige and political reasons. The Japanese Imperial Navy kept its super-dreadnoughts, the Yamato and Mushashi, away from danger until it was too late.
During the last seasons of TNG, Picard was put on missions to deal with the Marquis, find them and deal with diplometic missions, fight with Lauren Ro. He sent her on secret missions until she died. The Admirals wouldn't tell Picard much expect be patrolling the Neutral Zone. For some reason, they were forever being kept out of the way. Just in case I guess. Between this and dealing with the Borg, Q, and other situations. So....now Q is going to be different here. Q was under orders from Starfleet to distract Enterprise as much as possible. Which means, that Section 13 is up to something here, since they been engineering situations, and the Borg itself is either a plot device, or something else. Since we know they can have thier own ships, thanks to the Romulans in Star Trek Picard.
i know, I know, Conspiracy Theory, but in a strange way that helped the crew stay alive.
I can’t remember exactly which Season of DS9 but I think it was Season 6 When Sisco returned to Earth and learned about the conspiracy of his Admiral putting heavy duty phasers and torpedos on the Excelsior and the female commander in charge to stop the Defiant from coming to Earth to put an end of a debate to putting Defiant weapons on the rest of the Star Ships. It was during this episode that I found very frustrating that we could’ve got some kind of cameo from Picard talking to one of the higher up Admirals in person or on the monitor or the frustration the senior commanders were having about losing Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. We really should’ve seen something like that to at least see the connection or have a cameo of Data or Riker meeting with Star Fleet about orders and showing their disagreements to enter the war effort and having Star Fleet tell them that they have their orders. It really would’ve been nice to have at least one episode with something like that and we already have six other seasons with almost nothing about TNG or Voyager, everybody likes to see old characters from another show in a new show. It mixes things up in a good way and makes you realize that these shows really are inter-connected. I totally get it, the creators wanted to keep everything about the DS9 characters but towards the end of season 6 and 7 I was really getting tired of hearing about Quark and his brother and their mom and the Grand Master. The Mirror universe was another faucet that was over used throughout the show. I was satisfied with “Cross Over” and “Through the Looking Glass” The rest of the following episodes of the mirror universe got ridiculous. The Ferrengee episodes were fine in season 4 and 5 but after a while it was getting old, really old and just dumb. It really should’ve focused more on the Dominion War and the star ship battles, that was cool. The dog fights were just awesome and military parts, undercover and going into the enemy lines was great. I tip my hat off for that.
Makes you realise how much the TV landscape has changed. Back then they deliberately didn't want to distract from their story. Today, the Enterprise warping in probably would've been the Season 6 finale. I mean, can you imagine a Trek show today *not* featuring the USS Enterprise, especially if it was the hero ship of the film series?