I believe that it is the governments way to put the largest diesel engine manufacturer out of business. Cummins is also developing other engines that operate efficiently on other energy sources other than electric.
@@aaronjohnson9072 I think its more likely they hammered it to drop the stock price then the people in the know buy it up on the cheap and dump it when it recovers they call that "crisis capitalism"
@@aaronjohnson9072that’s not going to effect much. Cummins will be around I’m sure for another 100 years. I think they are also getting hit hard because they got caught around 2018 I think with cheat devices and then in 2019 changed to another type of way to defeat emissions. Same reason VW got hit so hard. Instead of actually fixing the problem they just doubled down. It looks worse when you try and out smart the government.
I'm not doing this recall until Cummins, Chrysler or the EPA tells me EXACTLY what will change. Here we are in the age of transparency, and nobody's being transparent. Some people think that there will be more EGR which may necessitate a (very expensive) EGR cleaning at some point, which the 13 - 18 trucks were supposed to be immune from. I'm still very curious of the long term effects of the recall.
@@rickpriest1961 not going to change anything with engine performance or horsepower / torque numbers. They know if they change the performance, it’ll open the flood gates to endless lawsuits. 67A is nothing more than a sensor strategy change. They’re going to modify how the NOx sensors are used to detect nox emissions and adjust DEF dosing to reduce those nox levels. That’s it. It’s not something to be concerned about, aside from using a little more DEF (which isn’t a bad thing) The 2020 and up trucks have had the improved NOx strategy and DEF usage programming since 2020.
I think its a bit crazy for the EPA to mandate that kind of change at that price tag if that is all that the flash is doing. I would believe that there is more to it than adjusting rate to empty on the def tank. When I pressed the service advisor at Ram as to the details of the flash he hesitated when I asked if they were encrypting the ecm and then proceeded to go off with a bunch of "BS" about how they don't know anything etc... The EPA along with other federal agencies need to be schooled by the Supreme Court this summer and held responsible to congress before they go off and do stupid fwiw. why should these clowns decide what is best when the answers they give are worse that what we are currently doing??
I don’t believe this is what they did. My understanding is that the def gauge reads empty with about 1/2 gallon left so that you have some in reserve. When I run my truck to empty and add 2.5 gallons in it, it has always read 1/2 a tank not over like your truck was reading before. The def tank is 5.5 gallons. Since getting the recall done on my truck it feels sluggish or lack of power under light throttle and my city fuel mileage has gone from 10.3mpg to 8.1mpg. I have not done enough highway driving yet to see what its mileage will be. I wont know until spring how it will run towing my fifth wheel. I keep hoping it is still relearning but as the days go by i think this might be the new normal. If it doesn’t pull my trailer the same way as before, i will either look into filing a lawsuit against Ram and Cummins or I will be getting rid of it. My truck is a 2018 3500 Dually Laramie Longhorn with the HO motor, Aisin transmission with max tow package.
This at least makes some sense. They cannot increase DEF consumption too much. If too much DEF is dosed into the catalytic reducer compared to the amount of NOx, the excess fluid becomes ammonia, and goes out the exhaust. That's by far, worse than the NOx! If you ever do smell the ammonia, it's time to look at the NOx sensors. Making sure there's a little extra DEF in reserve would guarantee that emission standards are maintained, even if it appears to be empty, and the engine goes into "default".
So true they will come after the little man and the consumers they’re gonna get more goofy and more petty with the stupidity California will be at the forefront of it. You can be guaranteed of that
I recently had this recall done on my 2018 3500. I took it to the dealer to analyze the ABS/HCU issue. They said there was a recall to reset exhaust emissions. I wasn't aware of the implications. It is not the same truck. There is a noticeable loss of power, not dramatic but noticeable. I am researching an alternative around this "recall ".
Interesting. Had to have the recall performed (live in Ca. and registration was due). Haven't noticed any difference in mileage nor performance. The DEF angle is a possibility. Thank you for your investigation!
I had that recall done and I noticed no power difference BUT I did notice I'm going through DEF quicker or so it would appear. Did notice my truck hasnt wanted to regen as often either..... Coincidence? Related?? Shall see down the road.
Regen cycles are very dependent on how you drive your truck. If you work it by taking trips longer than 30mins regularly and tow regularly the engine and exhaust gets hot enough to do a passive regen and partially oxidize soot but if you baby it too much and take short trips you get heavy soot buildup and the only way to clean the dpf is a full forced and forced regeneration because the pressure delta across the filter is too high.
I am curious. I have had the warning come on 3 times since owning my 2016 Ram 2500. First time I showed almost 1/2 full of DEF, second - between 1/2 and 1/4, and third almost 3/4 full. I fixed it by attaching one of those READER/FIXER things for the codes, after disconnecting the batteries for the time it took to cook, eat, and clean the dinner dishes. All three times it happened in Blairsdon/Graeagle area of California, over 400 miles from my home...... I didn't take it to the nearest service dept (RENO, NV) because they were booked out for more than a month. However, Susanville, CA - about 90 miles away - said they had pages and pages of documentation on this problem. I just fixed it myself. So - I am not sure what this RECALL fixes. I am positive that my gauge is stupid anyway, but, the dealership wants THOUSANDS to fix the system. Poo on them. What a mess this pissy stuff is. Now - If I could just figure out how to use the TRUCKING NOZZLES to fill my tank .. I'd be SOOOOO happy. Oh well. Thanks for the video.
I usually run mine to a quarter tank or the red part and i would refill with a box and it would fill to 3/4 tank. Been doing that since i got the truck in March 23. I filled this weekend with a box at the 1/4 tank level after my truck was at the shop and the flash was done to it. Noticed it didnt reach the 3/4 level. Thought that was wierd. For a while i thought i had burned that much def on a 170 mile trip.
I had it explained to me that it was a change in how the def system performed during warm up and in cold climates. Basically It was inactive during warm up. And the tolerance for it was really high as in it wouldn’t function till at a specific operating temp. People who daily town drive, the system wouldn’t turn on at all.
Just a way for the EPA to help out their buddies.. Sharing the wealth between them while we get screwed on this sorry system... Which cost us time and money..
67A has nothing to do with your DEF gauge. It’s a change in the NOx sensor strategy. The flash adjusts how and when the truck uses the NOx sensors to monitor NOx output and adjusts DEF dosing to match it. Your gauge isn’t reading the same level because you’ve consistently ran the tank down to zero. When you do this repeatedly, you greatly increase the chances for DEF crystals to form in the focus tube on the level sensor. (Which utilizes an ultrasonic pulse similar to sonar). When DEF crystals form in the focus tube, they can cause irregularities in the level reading or in some cases a false empty. It’s lousy practice to run the tank completely dry. An 1/8 of a tank should be the absolute minimum you let the tank run down to. 1/4 is better.
Since I started hearing people say 'they just recalibrate the gauge', like this is all just a RAM/EPA under the table 'conspiracy', I've thought that makes no sense. I doubt the only EPA issue found was from trucks going down the road when the DEF tank was empty. To me changing the program to introduce more DEF is more likely. I read that's what Ford did to comply. I don't like that much, but what worries me more is do they also lock the control unit making it impossible to reprogram if I decided to delete for engine longevity later. Forced limp mode sucks too. What if I'm many miles from DEF and run out? I've had issues finding it in some locations and always carry extra if I'm towing.
@@crawlercon5187 the 67A flash is for emissions only. There is no ecm lockout. That was just typical internet rumor. As for running out of DEF, the truck will give you a 150 mile countdown to refill once the DEF is depleted. Once the countdown is at zero miles remaining, you can continue driving the truck if you’re still moving, but if you stop and put the truck in park, idle it for more than a few minutes, or attempt to add fuel to the fuel tank, the truck will go into a 5mph max speed limited mode until a sufficient amount of DEF is added to the tank. DEF is readily available almost everywhere, I would suspect you should be able to find some within a 150 mile drive. If you know you’re headed into an area where DEF is scarce, plan ahead and take some extra along. Just be sure to store it properly while on your trip. Keep it out of direct sunlight, and keep it out of the freezing cold or extreme heat if you can.
Can’t agree more.!! Never run it empty. I own a diesel truck and run diesel equipment. Those DEF crystals build up quick and get thick the more time DEF isn’t maintained. Besides any extra wear or stress being put on the already SHIT DEF system. Honestly anything I care about I try to keep full as much as pos to avoid leaving any exposed area for those crystals to form.
My 16 only used def when towing but my 21 guzzles it all the time and I run the def to half and a two and a half gallon box puts it at full. Also I’ve have not got a recall notice for that.
My 16 was the same. Almost no Def used. After recall it burns Def like my buddies 21. Does get better mpg by atleast 1.5 mpg now though. In Def cost its probably a wash or loss
I drive my truck everyday and fill up at exactly a half. Got my truck back from other recall work ...67A was NOT on the list. At a half its always taken a full box. I just filled it up for the first time after the work was done. My needle was very slightly over a half on the gauge...it didn't take a whole box..maybe about 12oz left? Looks like its using LESS def.
I’m curious if when your truck says your out if your now really out, it sounds like you don’t think you will be but it would be interesting to test if it true.
I have a 2018 35ooSRW Cummins and I used 5 Gal. plus of DEF in a 850 mile run towing my 5th wheel at 22K CGVW. I use very very little just as a DD. Last fall we did a 700 mile solo run and still used very little DEF. Not sure of your theory.
Thanks for your commitment to this issue and doing your own real-world testing to get to the bottom of it. It really still does boggle the mind that specifics have not been released for the changes that have been made, so us "pawns" can know exactly what's needing to be done to our OWN vehicles. Like most, I'll still be following this issue closely, because something tells me it doesn't just stop here. I sure hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't put anything past unelected bureaucrats, at this point.
Hey Aaron. I just got a 2024 Ram 3500 last week. Going on 3500 miles or so as of today. Filled the DEF the second time after 2000 miles. My DEF is frozen solid and has been frozen for about 3 days now. No usage. No issues. Crazy stuff.
On my 2013 I've felt the DEF gage reads too high, when the gage reads 1/2 tank, I should be able to fit an ENTIRE extra jug in the tank, but I'll have a decent bit of leftovers. I've decided that on my 13, which hasn't had a recall done, that the DEF tank is truly 1/2 full when the gage reads at 1/4 tank.
If these SCR systems were what diesel truck owners really wanted, there wouldn't be any worry of people running the DEF tank dry and running a tank of fuel through the truck "dirty". There also wouldn't be a "need" for the limp mode, which that alone is going too far. At worst, they should just log a "DEF exhausted" event in the computer and leave it up to each state if they want to inspect vehicles for a bunch of stored "DEF exhausted" codes. If you want to sell them on the idea, just note that it could be a lucrative revenue stream for them, seems to be what all things government are interested in nowadays anyway. EDIT: or is that giving them bad ideas.
I had the recall performed and my engine operates a fair bit different. I burn more DEF, but have the same power and fuel economy. My turbo acts different until the engine reaches operating temp. My engine uses the EGR a fair bit more as well. There is slight changes in the way the throttle acts cold and warmed up. While cruising empty it holds a down shift longer, but I haven’t noticed any change in how soon it downshifts. 2016 Ram 3500 HO w/Aisin transmission
Interesting data point. So far mine still seems normal. I towed 23k gross about 500 miles last weekend and mileage and def use were not noticably different compare to the last time I towed that. I really wish they would tell us exactly what they did. Thanks!
Everyone I know in the hot shot business (which is what I currently do) has stated exactly what I posted. I never take my truck to the dealer I do all of my own work as I am a former master technician and licensed aircraft tech.
Mine was done without me knowing they told me that they reflased the computer because I was having an issue with the heater. when I left the dealership, I noticed my milage went down to 15 mpg from 19 what I was getting. then I towed a trailer to CA from GA and was burning through DEF and gas getting 9mpg with an empty trailer.
That doesn't really add up. If it tells you several times that you're lower than it is and you have to fill it sooner, that means it will e eventually be telling you that it is empty when it is, in fact, full. It must be using more Def.
That's not how recalibrating a gauge of any type works. you're not thinking about it correctly. Many fuel gauges are factory calibrated to read 0 gallons left when in fact you have, say two gallons left for example. nothing changes each time you refill the fuel tank. The gauge is just always off by the set x gallons.
Skeptical that recalibrating the DEF gauge is the only change. Several years ago when much newer, the DEF gauge in my 2014 was less accurate like your 'after' (but never true on my 2017), showing more was in the tank than was. After a dealer visit for something, the gauge in the 2014 was obviously recalibrated, and then when at 'half' would take 2.5 gallons, empty would take about 5 gallons, etc. I prefer the more accurate DEF gauge, though the DEF gauge is not nearly as accurate as the fuel gauge.
I wish recalls would only inconvenience the manufacturers. Like they come to your home and fix it there or take your vehicle then bring it back or leave loaner.
While this would be great if all that was "amiss" was the DEF gauge needed to be "repositioned", I find it non-believable that Cummins was fined nearly $2B for only this issue as a violation. There has to be something more, or maybe our out-of-control federal gov't is way more tyrannical that we thought? Thanks for putting this info together.
The def in the def tank is measured by a sonar board on the pump. So, you might notice that gauge stays on full longer. It doesn't start reading the level of def until the def fluid has reached the top of the sonar on the def pump. I doubt the recall has nothing to do with the def gauge.
If you are correct then a gauge at zero on the old program should take more def to get to full than a gauge that has been reprogramed. You should test that to prove your theory. If you are close to WA my truck has not yet been in for the recall if you want to use it for comparison.
I appreciate that. The issue is when full, the tank is designed to have at least a full gallon that has to be used before the gauge even starts to move down. So it won't be noticable at the top of the gauge. Thanks!
Back in 2017 I bought a new 17 ram it was a good truck but the issue was the emissions. I ended up doing a lemon on it and got all my money back then I bought a 2020 F450 and it was also a great truck until the emissions Killed it. It went through EGR twice DPF replaced Cp4 blew up at 26k miles sat in the dealer for 4 1/2 months and at that point I was done with. I got rid of the truck and ended up getting a 2022 ram 3500 Cummins and again the emissions issues started. I still have the truck but I ended up buying a 2000 F550 with a 7.3 powerstoke…. Zero issues. Im done with new trucks for now✌️
Yep. You found the real solution. Get one of the old pre-emission trucks. I was looking for a pre-2007 5.9 when I bought mine but they were and are rare as hens teeth as folks who have them know what they have. If you keep up with the maintenance on the old 7.3, it will live forever. (Plus, as I showed in all the videos I made about my 97 F150, the parts are cheap and available.) Powerstrokehelp.com has some older videos about a few of the minor issues those can have that could help if you need it. Thanks!
Could be, but I've seen no indication of any issues or codes related to it up to this point. And the last time I added a box it went to the normal old level a I recall. Thanks!
There is alot more that is happening to your truck than just increased DEF. A cummins tech has posted some info on the recall. Increased EGR, with which lead to EGR intake and cooler clogs and require more frequent service and more soot in your engine. Also increased Regens to clear DPF build up, and reduce fuel economy as a result of more Regens. It's stuff you are Not going to see on your drive home from the dealer after getting the recall. They are giving some extended warranty to cover these emission items, but it is limited to 4 years or 120,000 miles Whichever comes first.
So theEPA cracking down on the manufacturer’s by making sure the truck breaks down so they can charge more for the truck in the future (to cover the warranty cost that will be passed on to the customer) then they hope you’ll be discouraged from buying a nother in a few years… just like alcohol “ we can’t stop them from drinking so we’ll make it really inconvenient and expensive” - Some Politicians
I’m more than a little skeptical about the added egr & it causing excess build up. The prior generation (pre-2013) used only egr to control NoX. The cleaning interval was 67,000 miles for the egr system. There’s no way they would need to go back to the same amounts of egr in the 13+ trucks, since they have def/scr to aid in controlling NoX.
Excellent thought. I wonder if they have any other ways of knowing that it's spraying or not. I had the DEF pressure sensor built into the pump fail a few years back, ($2000 repaired under warranty), and I bet that is a back up to know if it is spraying or not. Thanks!
The gauge is not linear. The sensor ('14 3500) is a sonic sensor. Filling the DEF tank so it shows full means you have about 5-5.3 gal. Once the tank is at 1/2, it will take a 2.5 gal box of DEF and not overflow or freeze and cause damage. It's all taking care of you and your truck. 9:10 😊
I have an 18 140k on it. I had the recall done over 2 weeks ago. No changes at all on mine. It does run stronger I do know that. It’s definitely smoother across the whole power band, no lock outs no loss of hp or torque. I still am not sure what it did. My truck has been fine.
This comment makes you sound like an insider spreading propaganda😂. Nobody else is reporting gains. If it was producing more power they would be using that as a selling point.
They didn't do anything except lock the computer. Once recall is complete, tuners can't reprogram it to accept the delete. That's straight from a RAM dealership technician. But someone will hack the computer eventually.
No if you were running that Def tank low often there crystalline on it possibly preventing the float from rising all the way. Dont worry this is the first step in finding out whos deleted their trucks. The first thing that happens when you take it in for the recall is a emissions system inspection to see if everything is on the truck then they connect there scan tool to monitor that all components are functioning properly. If the recalls arent done on all the trucks the next thing to go down the pipe is a compliance order that you will not be able to license the truck with out proof of the recall being done thats next. Just like the emissions checks in the seventies if you didnt pass the test which you never would with out catalytic converter and egr on the gas cars then you could license your car until it passed.
Back in the 80s I just ran the tank really low and put denatured alcohol in it. Ran like crap but passed the sniffer test. Lol 😂 that was obviously for a gas engine though.
I’m going to just say that if someone isn’t smart enough to realize that a dealership ecm/pcm flash is going to overwrite their aftermarket programming, they’re getting what they deserve. Why on earth someone would take their truck without emissions equipment in for an EMISSIONS RECALL is beyond me. Even in states that are requiring it for registration, you’d have to be 😵💫 to not put everything back to stock first.
Not a significant difference in gauge readings between your two pics. The level sensor isn’t accurate enough to go by the analog gauge with the amount of detail you’re expecting. If you really want to know, you’d need to fill it completely full, then drive the truck xxxx miles, refill & calculate. Basically the same as if you were calculating mpg for fuel.
The Cummins in the Nissan Titan was correct but everyone complained about how much DEF it consumed for the engine size. I'm sure the Cummins 6.7 / 2.0 will blow through DEF like a garden hose. Don't worry, your government knows what is best.
I have see a BIG difference in this recall 67A is a delete kit killer. If you are running a delete kit, and if gets reprogram. It will wipe out your delete kit. It will set a check engine light on for ever. Until you buy new ECM and install back to factory setings.
What purpose would that serve ? How many owners would put up with an inaccurate reading gauge? To intentionally recalibrate a gauge to get you to buy more def is just asking for legal trouble and honestly would serve no other purpose than that, it won't do anything to reduce emissions. The changes made are going to be made in fueling, egr flow, turbo vgt and refine parameters. Most will never notice the change.
First mileage was a couple years ago when I ran the truck out of def to see what happened. Later mileage was recently when I ran it out of def after the recall.
if you run 1/2 tank of diesel with no def you will be responsible for 3 small children in California having a handicap and speak jibberish. Thank God for the EPA and CARB!
Thanks! Not sure about the trans. It's the HD Aisin. Is always run there no matter what I'm towing. Of course, I don't necessarily trust the gauge in this thing, The engine oil pressure is a calculated value from the computer.
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So thats the excuse for $1,670,000,000. Sounds like a bank heist doesn't it
The democrat MARXIST party at work again!
I believe that it is the governments way to put the largest diesel engine manufacturer out of business. Cummins is also developing other engines that operate efficiently on other energy sources other than electric.
@@aaronjohnson9072 I think its more likely they hammered it to drop the stock price then the people in the know buy it up on the cheap and dump it when it recovers they call that "crisis capitalism"
@@aaronjohnson9072that’s not going to effect much. Cummins will be around I’m sure for another 100 years.
I think they are also getting hit hard because they got caught around 2018 I think with cheat devices and then in 2019 changed to another type of way to defeat emissions.
Same reason VW got hit so hard. Instead of actually fixing the problem they just doubled down. It looks worse when you try and out smart the government.
@@aaronjohnson9072 that's why Cummins should ignore the invalid "fine."
I'm not doing this recall until Cummins, Chrysler or the EPA tells me EXACTLY what will change. Here we are in the age of transparency, and nobody's being transparent. Some people think that there will be more EGR which may necessitate a (very expensive) EGR cleaning at some point, which the 13 - 18 trucks were supposed to be immune from. I'm still very curious of the long term effects of the recall.
Agreed. This would be much better if they're tell us what is being changed. Thanks!
Me to no recall till i know what the change is!
The consumer loses. Wastes a day getting to a dealer. Ends up with a less powerful engine? The gov't makes $1.6 Billion!
@@rickpriest1961 not going to change anything with engine performance or horsepower / torque numbers. They know if they change the performance, it’ll open the flood gates to endless lawsuits. 67A is nothing more than a sensor strategy change. They’re going to modify how the NOx sensors are used to detect nox emissions and adjust DEF dosing to reduce those nox levels. That’s it. It’s not something to be concerned about, aside from using a little more DEF (which isn’t a bad thing) The 2020 and up trucks have had the improved NOx strategy and DEF usage programming since 2020.
They'll never tell you. Due to the nature of the recall, at some point you may not be able to renew your license or tags until it is done.
I think its a bit crazy for the EPA to mandate that kind of change at that price tag if that is all that the flash is doing. I would believe that there is more to it than adjusting rate to empty on the def tank. When I pressed the service advisor at Ram as to the details of the flash he hesitated when I asked if they were encrypting the ecm and then proceeded to go off with a bunch of "BS" about how they don't know anything etc... The EPA along with other federal agencies need to be schooled by the Supreme Court this summer and held responsible to congress before they go off and do stupid fwiw. why should these clowns decide what is best when the answers they give are worse that what we are currently doing??
Plastic Def containers in the landfills are going to save the planet.
5:48 i think they turned up the def burning to have the def system has to be refueled mire frequently 😮
I appreciate any info on this.
I don’t believe this is what they did. My understanding is that the def gauge reads empty with about 1/2 gallon left so that you have some in reserve. When I run my truck to empty and add 2.5 gallons in it, it has always read 1/2 a tank not over like your truck was reading before. The def tank is 5.5 gallons. Since getting the recall done on my truck it feels sluggish or lack of power under light throttle and my city fuel mileage has gone from 10.3mpg to 8.1mpg. I have not done enough highway driving yet to see what its mileage will be. I wont know until spring how it will run towing my fifth wheel. I keep hoping it is still relearning but as the days go by i think this might be the new normal. If it doesn’t pull my trailer the same way as before, i will either look into filing a lawsuit against Ram and Cummins or I will be getting rid of it. My truck is a 2018 3500 Dually Laramie Longhorn with the HO motor, Aisin transmission with max tow package.
This at least makes some sense. They cannot increase DEF consumption too much. If too much DEF is dosed into the catalytic reducer compared to the amount of NOx, the excess fluid becomes ammonia, and goes out the exhaust. That's by far, worse than the NOx! If you ever do smell the ammonia, it's time to look at the NOx sensors. Making sure there's a little extra DEF in reserve would guarantee that emission standards are maintained, even if it appears to be empty, and the engine goes into "default".
So true they will come after the little man and the consumers they’re gonna get more goofy and more petty with the stupidity California will be at the forefront of it. You can be guaranteed of that
I recently had this recall done on my 2018 3500. I took it to the dealer to analyze the ABS/HCU issue. They said there was a recall to reset exhaust emissions.
I wasn't aware of the implications. It is not the same truck. There is a noticeable loss of power, not dramatic but noticeable.
I am researching an alternative around this "recall ".
Here in Kalifornia, we can't get our next license tags unless the 67A recall is completed a n I have to show a certificate showing completion.
California has become a Socialist State.
Interesting. Had to have the recall performed (live in Ca. and registration was due). Haven't noticed any difference in mileage nor performance. The DEF angle is a possibility. Thank you for your investigation!
I am in CA as well and my registration is due in a couple of months....I am glad to hear it did not negatively impact performance.
FYI.... You mispelled Commiefornia as Ca. :)
I had that recall done and I noticed no power difference BUT I did notice I'm going through DEF quicker or so it would appear. Did notice my truck hasnt wanted to regen as often either..... Coincidence? Related?? Shall see down the road.
Great video man! thanks for posting!
Maybe it's a recalibration of the gauge to compensate for the more regen cycles it will go through and a higher dosing rate.
Exactly
Regen cycles are very dependent on how you drive your truck. If you work it by taking trips longer than 30mins regularly and tow regularly the engine and exhaust gets hot enough to do a passive regen and partially oxidize soot but if you baby it too much and take short trips you get heavy soot buildup and the only way to clean the dpf is a full forced and forced regeneration because the pressure delta across the filter is too high.
I hope you are correct! Only time will tell.
I am curious. I have had the warning come on 3 times since owning my 2016 Ram 2500. First time I showed almost 1/2 full of DEF, second - between 1/2 and 1/4, and third almost 3/4 full. I fixed it by attaching one of those READER/FIXER things for the codes, after disconnecting the batteries for the time it took to cook, eat, and clean the dinner dishes. All three times it happened in Blairsdon/Graeagle area of California, over 400 miles from my home...... I didn't take it to the nearest service dept (RENO, NV) because they were booked out for more than a month. However, Susanville, CA - about 90 miles away - said they had pages and pages of documentation on this problem. I just fixed it myself. So - I am not sure what this RECALL fixes. I am positive that my gauge is stupid anyway, but, the dealership wants THOUSANDS to fix the system. Poo on them. What a mess this pissy stuff is. Now - If I could just figure out how to use the TRUCKING NOZZLES to fill my tank .. I'd be SOOOOO happy. Oh well. Thanks for the video.
I am not sure if mine is effected by recall because it was originally sold in Canada.
I usually run mine to a quarter tank or the red part and i would refill with a box and it would fill to 3/4 tank. Been doing that since i got the truck in March 23. I filled this weekend with a box at the 1/4 tank level after my truck was at the shop and the flash was done to it. Noticed it didnt reach the 3/4 level. Thought that was wierd. For a while i thought i had burned that much def on a 170 mile trip.
Wow! Great job getting to the bottom of this literally.
Thanks!
I had it explained to me that it was a change in how the def system performed during warm up and in cold climates. Basically It was inactive during warm up. And the tolerance for it was really high as in it wouldn’t function till at a specific operating temp. People who daily town drive, the system wouldn’t turn on at all.
Just a way for the EPA to help out their buddies.. Sharing the wealth between them while we get screwed on this sorry system... Which cost us time and money..
Did the recall on my 2016. Uses way more Def now. Gets 1.5-2.0 mpg better fuel economy. Over all runs better. My expericance so far.
Mine as well.
67A has nothing to do with your DEF gauge. It’s a change in the NOx sensor strategy. The flash adjusts how and when the truck uses the NOx sensors to monitor NOx output and adjusts DEF dosing to match it. Your gauge isn’t reading the same level because you’ve consistently ran the tank down to zero. When you do this repeatedly, you greatly increase the chances for DEF crystals to form in the focus tube on the level sensor. (Which utilizes an ultrasonic pulse similar to sonar). When DEF crystals form in the focus tube, they can cause irregularities in the level reading or in some cases a false empty. It’s lousy practice to run the tank completely dry. An 1/8 of a tank should be the absolute minimum you let the tank run down to. 1/4 is better.
How do you what is actually changed in the programming? Do you have inside information?
Yup..refill when gauge is at half..one box and it'll always be full.
Since I started hearing people say 'they just recalibrate the gauge', like this is all just a RAM/EPA under the table 'conspiracy', I've thought that makes no sense. I doubt the only EPA issue found was from trucks going down the road when the DEF tank was empty. To me changing the program to introduce more DEF is more likely. I read that's what Ford did to comply. I don't like that much, but what worries me more is do they also lock the control unit making it impossible to reprogram if I decided to delete for engine longevity later. Forced limp mode sucks too. What if I'm many miles from DEF and run out? I've had issues finding it in some locations and always carry extra if I'm towing.
@@crawlercon5187 the 67A flash is for emissions only. There is no ecm lockout. That was just typical internet rumor. As for running out of DEF, the truck will give you a 150 mile countdown to refill once the DEF is depleted. Once the countdown is at zero miles remaining, you can continue driving the truck if you’re still moving, but if you stop and put the truck in park, idle it for more than a few minutes, or attempt to add fuel to the fuel tank, the truck will go into a 5mph max speed limited mode until a sufficient amount of DEF is added to the tank. DEF is readily available almost everywhere, I would suspect you should be able to find some within a 150 mile drive. If you know you’re headed into an area where DEF is scarce, plan ahead and take some extra along. Just be sure to store it properly while on your trip. Keep it out of direct sunlight, and keep it out of the freezing cold or extreme heat if you can.
Can’t agree more.!! Never run it empty. I own a diesel truck and run diesel equipment. Those DEF crystals build up quick and get thick the more time DEF isn’t maintained. Besides any extra wear or stress being put on the already SHIT DEF system. Honestly anything I care about I try to keep full as much as pos to avoid leaving any exposed area for those crystals to form.
My 16 only used def when towing but my 21 guzzles it all the time and I run the def to half and a two and a half gallon box puts it at full. Also I’ve have not got a recall notice for that.
My 16 was the same. Almost no Def used. After recall it burns Def like my buddies 21. Does get better mpg by atleast 1.5 mpg now though. In Def cost its probably a wash or loss
I drive my truck everyday and fill up at exactly a half. Got my truck back from other recall work ...67A was NOT on the list. At a half its always taken a full box. I just filled it up for the first time after the work was done. My needle was very slightly over a half on the gauge...it didn't take a whole box..maybe about 12oz left? Looks like its using LESS def.
They made an example of the Diesel Bros, they are coming for everyone.
wow, that's a great find but i guess, in actuality, not bad all things considered. thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching!
They locked your computer, so you can not remove the emissions hardware and increased the DEF usage.
False, it's still tunable
@floresbobby510 go delete your egr and your def then come back and let us know how that worked out for you.
@@floresbobby510how do we know this?
There never was a “lock out” flash. The 2022+ trucks come “locked” from the factory.
I’m curious if when your truck says your out if your now really out, it sounds like you don’t think you will be but it would be interesting to test if it true.
Welcome to what class 8 trucks/semi been dealing with,have it go into derate ,$$ pain in the and hours sometimes in diagnostic
I have a 2018 35ooSRW Cummins and I used 5 Gal. plus of DEF in a 850 mile run towing my 5th wheel at 22K CGVW. I use very very little just as a DD. Last fall we did a 700 mile solo run and still used very little DEF. Not sure of your theory.
@@SomeoneImportantLikeYou You forget I am 2 years older than you. Apples to grapes. I really don't care how much or little you use. Good day.
Thanks for your commitment to this issue and doing your own real-world testing to get to the bottom of it. It really still does boggle the mind that specifics have not been released for the changes that have been made, so us "pawns" can know exactly what's needing to be done to our OWN vehicles. Like most, I'll still be following this issue closely, because something tells me it doesn't just stop here. I sure hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't put anything past unelected bureaucrats, at this point.
Hey Aaron. I just got a 2024 Ram 3500 last week. Going on 3500 miles or so as of today. Filled the DEF the second time after 2000 miles. My DEF is frozen solid and has been frozen for about 3 days now. No usage. No issues. Crazy stuff.
Delete.
I will when I can.
@@AKN8TV
Diesel dudes.
On my 2013 I've felt the DEF gage reads too high, when the gage reads 1/2 tank, I should be able to fit an ENTIRE extra jug in the tank, but I'll have a decent bit of leftovers. I've decided that on my 13, which hasn't had a recall done, that the DEF tank is truly 1/2 full when the gage reads at 1/4 tank.
When my '18 gauge reads 1/2 full I can easily add 2.5 gal. jug.
@@johnirwin1837 You definitely don't have an inaccurate one like I do.
Your government is here to help. FJB
My 2005 5.9 Cummings put out less CO than a 2022 Cummings with the DEF.
That's an interesting theory for sure. I always wondered why I could run mine out then add 21/2 gallon and have 3/4 tank.
If these SCR systems were what diesel truck owners really wanted, there wouldn't be any worry of people running the DEF tank dry and running a tank of fuel through the truck "dirty". There also wouldn't be a "need" for the limp mode, which that alone is going too far. At worst, they should just log a "DEF exhausted" event in the computer and leave it up to each state if they want to inspect vehicles for a bunch of stored "DEF exhausted" codes. If you want to sell them on the idea, just note that it could be a lucrative revenue stream for them, seems to be what all things government are interested in nowadays anyway.
EDIT: or is that giving them bad ideas.
I noticed I don't use ANY def!!! I get 20mpg, too. When it was new, it got about 16mpg 😊
@@SomeoneImportantLikeYou lol yep, it's quite a bit lighter on its feet!!!
me either.canada is so dumb.
I had the recall performed and my engine operates a fair bit different. I burn more DEF, but have the same power and fuel economy. My turbo acts different until the engine reaches operating temp. My engine uses the EGR a fair bit more as well. There is slight changes in the way the throttle acts cold and warmed up. While cruising empty it holds a down shift longer, but I haven’t noticed any change in how soon it downshifts. 2016 Ram 3500 HO w/Aisin transmission
Interesting data point. So far mine still seems normal. I towed 23k gross about 500 miles last weekend and mileage and def use were not noticably different compare to the last time I towed that. I really wish they would tell us exactly what they did. Thanks!
Don’t let them do the recall on your ram! It reduces fuel mileage and pulling power!! I know because I use mine for a living!
That is not my experience but a few commenters have noticed increased DEF usage. Thanks!
Everyone I know in the hot shot business (which is what I currently do) has stated exactly what I posted. I never take my truck to the dealer I do all of my own work as I am a former master technician and licensed aircraft tech.
Mine was done without me knowing they told me that they reflased the computer because I was having an issue with the heater. when I left the dealership, I noticed my milage went down to 15 mpg from 19 what I was getting. then I towed a trailer to CA from GA and was burning through DEF and gas getting 9mpg with an empty trailer.
I was at the dealer having something else done and they did the recall without telling me first, my fuel mileage went down also
What size is your DEF tank. I have a 21 2500 and mine is 5 gallons.
5 gallons as well.
That doesn't really add up. If it tells you several times that you're lower than it is and you have to fill it sooner, that means it will e eventually be telling you that it is empty when it is, in fact, full. It must be using more Def.
That's not how recalibrating a gauge of any type works. you're not thinking about it correctly. Many fuel gauges are factory calibrated to read 0 gallons left when in fact you have, say two gallons left for example. nothing changes each time you refill the fuel tank. The gauge is just always off by the set x gallons.
I'm surprised the EPA didn't have us use high efficiency wash machine detergent in the DEF tank ! What's the definition of insanity ?
Skeptical that recalibrating the DEF gauge is the only change. Several years ago when much newer, the DEF gauge in my 2014 was less accurate like your 'after' (but never true on my 2017), showing more was in the tank than was.
After a dealer visit for something, the gauge in the 2014 was obviously recalibrated, and then when at 'half' would take 2.5 gallons, empty would take about 5 gallons, etc.
I prefer the more accurate DEF gauge, though the DEF gauge is not nearly as accurate as the fuel gauge.
Mine went from half tank to empty in 7 miles. Gages stuck on half tank. Course antifreeze probably didn’t help from dealer
You know who you are
I wish recalls would only inconvenience the manufacturers. Like they come to your home and fix it there or take your vehicle then bring it back or leave loaner.
I don't want these people anywhere near my house. LOL. :-)
While this would be great if all that was "amiss" was the DEF gauge needed to be "repositioned", I find it non-believable that Cummins was fined nearly $2B for only this issue as a violation. There has to be something more, or maybe our out-of-control federal gov't is way more tyrannical that we thought?
Thanks for putting this info together.
The def in the def tank is measured by a sonar board on the pump. So, you might notice that gauge stays on full longer. It doesn't start reading the level of def until the def fluid has reached the top of the sonar on the def pump. I doubt the recall has nothing to do with the def gauge.
Correction: the gauge stays on full until it reaches the top of the sonar on the pump then starts to measure down to empty.
If you are correct then a gauge at zero on the old program should take more def to get to full than a gauge that has been reprogramed. You should test that to prove your theory. If you are close to WA my truck has not yet been in for the recall if you want to use it for comparison.
I appreciate that. The issue is when full, the tank is designed to have at least a full gallon that has to be used before the gauge even starts to move down. So it won't be noticable at the top of the gauge. Thanks!
Back in 2017 I bought a new 17 ram it was a good truck but the issue was the emissions. I ended up doing a lemon on it and got all my money back then I bought a 2020 F450 and it was also a great truck until the emissions Killed it. It went through EGR twice DPF replaced Cp4 blew up at 26k miles sat in the dealer for 4 1/2 months and at that point I was done with. I got rid of the truck and ended up getting a 2022 ram 3500 Cummins and again the emissions issues started. I still have the truck but I ended up buying a 2000 F550 with a 7.3 powerstoke…. Zero issues. Im done with new trucks for now✌️
Yep. You found the real solution. Get one of the old pre-emission trucks. I was looking for a pre-2007 5.9 when I bought mine but they were and are rare as hens teeth as folks who have them know what they have. If you keep up with the maintenance on the old 7.3, it will live forever. (Plus, as I showed in all the videos I made about my 97 F150, the parts are cheap and available.) Powerstrokehelp.com has some older videos about a few of the minor issues those can have that could help if you need it. Thanks!
Hmmm def fluid been driving my 2017 Cummins for many years never have had to add any ... craziness
Thanks for the video . Maybe there is a chance your def gauge sending unit is sticking??
Could be, but I've seen no indication of any issues or codes related to it up to this point. And the last time I added a box it went to the normal old level a I recall. Thanks!
There is alot more that is happening to your truck than just increased DEF. A cummins tech has posted some info on the recall. Increased EGR, with which lead to EGR intake and cooler clogs and require more frequent service and more soot in your engine. Also increased Regens to clear DPF build up, and reduce fuel economy as a result of more Regens. It's stuff you are Not going to see on your drive home from the dealer after getting the recall. They are giving some extended warranty to cover these emission items, but it is limited to 4 years or 120,000 miles Whichever comes first.
So theEPA cracking down on the manufacturer’s by making sure the truck breaks down so they can charge more for the truck in the future (to cover the warranty cost that will be passed on to the customer) then they hope you’ll be discouraged from buying a nother in a few years… just like alcohol “ we can’t stop them from drinking so we’ll make it really inconvenient and expensive”
- Some Politicians
hey can you post the info or location of the cummins tech post I have lots of folks asking for more details thanks
I’m more than a little skeptical about the added egr & it causing excess build up. The prior generation (pre-2013) used only egr to control NoX. The cleaning interval was 67,000 miles for the egr system. There’s no way they would need to go back to the same amounts of egr in the 13+ trucks, since they have def/scr to aid in controlling NoX.
Seams like a simple cut and splice a resistor into the DEF level so it always reads 3/4 will fix it.
Excellent thought. I wonder if they have any other ways of knowing that it's spraying or not. I had the DEF pressure sensor built into the pump fail a few years back, ($2000 repaired under warranty), and I bet that is a back up to know if it is spraying or not. Thanks!
Very interesting.
I hope that’s the case!
The gauge is not linear. The sensor ('14 3500) is a sonic sensor. Filling the DEF tank so it shows full means you have about 5-5.3 gal. Once the tank is at 1/2, it will take a 2.5 gal box of DEF and not overflow or freeze and cause damage. It's all taking care of you and your truck. 9:10 😊
Also, you can’t idle for longer than 5min. It cuts the fuel and shuts your truck off.
Really interesting theory on the gauge setting.
Thanks! I think it's something stupid like this because if it was VW level of criminal there's no way the feds would have let them not admit it.
I have an 18 140k on it. I had the recall done over 2 weeks ago. No changes at all on mine. It does run stronger I do know that. It’s definitely smoother across the whole power band, no lock outs no loss of hp or torque. I still am not sure what it did. My truck has been fine.
This comment makes you sound like an insider spreading propaganda😂. Nobody else is reporting gains. If it was producing more power they would be using that as a selling point.
They didn't do anything except lock the computer. Once recall is complete, tuners can't reprogram it to accept the delete. That's straight from a RAM dealership technician. But someone will hack the computer eventually.
No if you were running that Def tank low often there crystalline on it possibly preventing the float from rising all the way. Dont worry this is the first step in finding out whos deleted their trucks. The first thing that happens when you take it in for the recall is a emissions system inspection to see if everything is on the truck then they connect there scan tool to monitor that all components are functioning properly. If the recalls arent done on all the trucks the next thing to go down the pipe is a compliance order that you will not be able to license the truck with out proof of the recall being done thats next. Just like the emissions checks in the seventies if you didnt pass the test which you never would with out catalytic converter and egr on the gas cars then you could license your car until it passed.
Back in the 80s I just ran the tank really low and put denatured alcohol in it. Ran like crap but passed the sniffer test. Lol 😂 that was obviously for a gas engine though.
I’m going to just say that if someone isn’t smart enough to realize that a dealership ecm/pcm flash is going to overwrite their aftermarket programming, they’re getting what they deserve. Why on earth someone would take their truck without emissions equipment in for an EMISSIONS RECALL is beyond me. Even in states that are requiring it for registration, you’d have to be 😵💫 to not put everything back to stock first.
@@jeffs2809 well some will lol seek to amaze you.
This is all ridiculous! It's the epa overstepping their authority. They are looking for trucks that may have been deleted.
Takes away throttle power for emissions. I have done lots of these recalls. Don’t do the recall if u want to keep the power ur truck has
So far, this has not been my experience. Thanks!
Not a significant difference in gauge readings between your two pics. The level sensor isn’t accurate enough to go by the analog gauge with the amount of detail you’re expecting. If you really want to know, you’d need to fill it completely full, then drive the truck xxxx miles, refill & calculate. Basically the same as if you were calculating mpg for fuel.
True, but def usage is so load dependent you would also need to duplicate the route/load over a significant distance. Not easy but possible.
looks like the made it more accurate to me.
The Cummins in the Nissan Titan was correct but everyone complained about how much DEF it consumed for the engine size. I'm sure the Cummins 6.7 / 2.0 will blow through DEF like a garden hose. Don't worry, your government knows what is best.
Maybe its just better calibrated. Have you seen an increase in usage?
I can't really tell. I don't think so but I've never measured actual def mileage so I can't compare.
Sometimes things just fall off.
In Mexico. 😎
i still think they are trying to see how many deletes are out there
I guess they can add me to that list… lol.
Has nothing to do with the truck using more DEF. This video has no good info to give on this recall
I have see a BIG difference in this recall 67A is a delete kit killer. If you are running a delete kit, and if gets reprogram. It will wipe out your delete kit. It will set a check engine light on for ever. Until you buy new ECM and install back to factory setings.
I understand it completely locks the computer also.???
Dark Iron Diesel and diesel dudes have videos on how to fix this.
soon we will have to add some kind of additive like DEF to our gas cars if we keep letting them kick up like this.
Cats are bad enough. :-)
Why in Europe did they only have def for a year
Good question. Similarly, how does my Mahindra tractor required no DEF or DPF and still meet regs when the Deeres and Kubotas have them? Thanks!
What a bunch of BS. How much did Elon Musk pay them to do this to Diesel owners
What purpose would that serve ? How many owners would put up with an inaccurate reading gauge? To intentionally recalibrate a gauge to get you to buy more def is just asking for legal trouble and honestly would serve no other purpose than that, it won't do anything to reduce emissions. The changes made are going to be made in fueling, egr flow, turbo vgt and refine parameters. Most will never notice the change.
I swapped my gauge cluster with a gas one from a nicer trim so I don’t even have a def gauge.
I've thought about doing this. Does it still give the warning message when you are low or do you use something else to monitor the def level.
@@MrChrsnl05 it just says when it is low.
How many fractions of a degree do they reckon this recall kept the earth from heating up....?
You buy a truck to use and you gotta buy def to keep you able to use the truck you paid for. What a money racket
Yes,unless one deletes it said vehicle.
Yep, almost as bad as them making you buy fuel to be able to use the truck you paid for…🤷♂️🤦♂️
@@jeffs2809 NOT if one makes one's own fuel.
All due to the people’s republic of California
Maybe I missed something but I would think if it ran out of def it would have immediately derated to 5mph
That's what I expected but they don't do that as it would be a serious safety hazard in traffic.
@aaronsrose they have done it for years on class 8 vehicles
one of these days they will outlaw the older vehicles that were never equipped with DPF . that will be a sad day for me
Commiefornia has already done it. Older class 8's without the new emissions are not even allowed into the state.
At 4:24 your milage is 25051 and at 4:39 it has doubled, 56830... what gives?
First mileage was a couple years ago when I ran the truck out of def to see what happened. Later mileage was recently when I ran it out of def after the recall.
It’s going to surprise me that they also put a lock in the computer so you can’t put a tune in the truck. At a bill of 1.7b
The DEF gauges are NOT that accurate even before the recall.
U don’t regen as often with this recall.
Got to go to cable drive my guy get rid of fly by wire
You beat TFL. Glad they can't brag about being the first for this
Money, money, money 💰
Chevy did that yrs ago, no def, don’t shut off
Cummins caughed up a billion + dollars to recalibrate the DEF guage ?
I think it has to be something this stupid. If it was really willful like the VW thing, they would not have let them not admit fault. Thanks!
if you run 1/2 tank of diesel with no def you will be responsible for 3 small children in California having a handicap and speak jibberish. Thank God for the EPA and CARB!
Thanks! good info. How do you keep your trans at 160*? Mine is always 170* but in traffic goes to 200* and even higher with a trailer.
Thanks! Not sure about the trans. It's the HD Aisin. Is always run there no matter what I'm towing. Of course, I don't necessarily trust the gauge in this thing, The engine oil pressure is a calculated value from the computer.
Has nothing to do with control. Wait till tgeres DEF shortages!
Diesel trucks need to be excluded from this stupid clean air act.