More POWER With A DPF Fitted? | Gale Banks On Emissions [TECH TALK]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ค. 2020
- Rolling coal and having excessively smokey diesel tunes were at one time widely believed to be part of the cost of performance, and even trendy, but according to and with explanation to back it up from Gale Banks of @bankspower, those days are gone and for some never even occurred.
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Many people believe removing the emissions tools like their Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) and Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) systems are the only way to make power on their street vehicles, however with a focus on retaining the same AFR by having greater air density being utilised as well as more fuel being introduced the same factory DPF cycle rate that is used from the factory can be retained with gains of 70-100HP and 120-140 lb-ft of torque being seen, without any major modification.
Gale also touches on towing concerns being non-existent with this approach, how the EPA is becoming more and more of a consideration in the US market and also exactly what the DPF does and why you don’t want to have it cycling through regens any more than absolutely required.
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#highperformanceacademy #galebanks #learntotune #bankspower #dieseltuning #datanerd #relfashtuning #standalone #motorsports #epa #emissions #dpfdelete - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
The replies to this video show a certain lack of understanding of the subject at hand so I thought I'd add a (lengthy) reply of my own to explain some things.
A diesel particulate filter (DPF) doesn't require diesel emission fluid (DEF) to work. DEF is for nitrogen oxide (NOx) reduction. DEF is a mixture of urea and water. Urea is made of oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen. In the selective catalyst (SCR) urea becomes ammonia which reacts with NOx to become water and nitrogen. Diesels produce lots of NOx because of their high temperature combustion.
A gas engine alternates between rich and lean. When it is lean the catalytic converter cleans up hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide by turning them into water and CO2 . When it is rich it cleans up NOx by turning it into nitrogen and oxygen or in other words air.
The catalytic converter in a gas engine is actually two converters in one. The two parts only work well when conditions are right. Specifically, the converter that cleans NOx doesn't work well unless there is almost no oxygen in the exhaust (rich mixture).
Since a diesel is never rich, the catalyst is not efficient in cleaning up carbon monoxide (CO). To overcome this problem DEF is added to the SCR to make the converter more effective in handling the NOx. DEF helps the SCR to do a better job of reducing NOx in the presence of oxygen.
EGR is used to reduce the amount of NOx made in the first place by reducing the temperature of combustion. Since exhaust won't burn, it's mass just absorbs heat from combustion and therefore reduces the temperature. Any inert gas or liquid added to the intake would do the same thing but exhaust does it well enough and is available and free. If the DEF and SCR worked well enough it wouldn't be necessary to have EGR and vice versa. Together, EGR, DEF and the SCR take care of NOx. A deleted truck produces a lot of NOx and there is little that can be done to tune it out.
When the mixture gets richer than about 18:1, which is still way leaner than a gas engine's 14.7:1, the engine starts to produce much more soot. The hydrogen in the fuel burns first and the carbon uses what ever oxygen is left. Since diesels have very little time for fuel and air to mix it is necessary to have excess oxygen available to burn up all of the carbon.
When race trucks and tractors blow all of that black smoke it is because they are sacrificing fuel efficiency and breathable air for power. Essentially they are throwing away a bunch of carbon in order to use as much hydrogen as possible. Hydrogen makes more power than carbon.
The black soot in diesel exhaust isn't technically coal. It is more precisely called coke, which is coal minus the hydrogen that most coal contains or charcoal which is wood minus the hydrogen. So rolling coal is more correctly called rolling coke/charcoal.
The size of diesel soot particles is tiny. It takes a very fine filter to remove a significant portion of it. It is a very big technical challenge to make a filter that can survive exhaust pipe temps and filter out the soot while not choking off the exhaust. Even a very clean diesel makes significant soot. One of the frontiers of diesel engine design for the last 150 years has been to clean up the exhaust while running as rich as possible. One way is to simply filter the soot out of the exhaust.
Of course there is a limit to how much junk a filter can hold. With an air or oil filter we can simply change it often but with a DPF the cost of replacing it is too high to make that viable. The alternative is to clean the filter by burning off the soot from time to time. Soot has to be pretty hot to burn well.
The catalytic converters create heat as they clean up the pollutants so by placing the DPF behind the converters it runs hot enough to burn off some of the soot during normal operation. That isn't sufficient though. Since there is always oxygen in the exhaust of a diesel there is the option to burn more fuel in the exhaust to make it even hotter to improve the oxidizing of the soot in the DPF. If the converter is doing its thing properly it will be running hot enough to ignite extra fuel injected into the exhaust. The exhaust will then be hot enough to clean the DPF. The DPF is often built into the catalytic converter to facilitate this.
The cleaning of the DPF is called regenerating. It is wasteful of fuel but it makes having a DPF possible. When the carbon in the DPF combines with oxygen in the exhaust it makes CO2, and nothing else. The fuel injected into the converter burns cleanly so all the makes is water and CO2.
The exhaust has more things in it than combustion gasses and soot. One thing it has is ash from additives in the oil. Oil gets into the combustion chamber from the crankcase ventilation system, past the rings , past the valve stem seals and past the turbo seals. There is always some dirt in the fuel. There is also dirt that gets past the air filter. This ash winds up in the DPF and can't be burnt out. Hence the need to eventually replace the DPF or get it purged of ash.
If everything is working properly, what comes out of the exhaust of a diesel engine vehicle is nitrogen, oxygen, water and CO2. There will be minute traces of other things but those who care are generally satisfied by the result.
It is easy to see why people would want to delete their trucks, given the problems we see today. The problem is, air pollution is a real thing. The first time I flew into LA was in 1972. As we arrived I looked down on the city below but but couldn't see the ground because of the very strange clouds When we landed I couldn't see across the airport because of the smog. I don't think anyone wants to go back to that.
I truly believe if people hadn't taken to rolling coal we would never have had a crackdown on tuning. The sad thing is that the first people they put out of business were the ones who produced only clean tunes. As so often happens, the few make life difficult for the many.
Long story short ford made a gas burning 7.3 liter v8 because diesels are junk now
Oh man you didn't have to write a whole book! I don't have time to read whole books😂😂
@@benjaminturpin2749 use the speech function and get your device to read it out to you instead 😎 - Taz.
Your write up of the diesel exhaust system is very good, but there are two things I would like to push back on.
1. The smog over LA has been around long before the first combustion engine.
2. NOx is not harmful to the environment in the same way CO2 is. NOx is only sort of harmful to anything breathing oxygen, however that’s only if you’re inside a sealed room with it. Once the nitrogen hits atmosphere it enters the nitrogen cycle.
the failing emissions components and their replacement cost are criminal.
Searb reath You’re an absolute idiot if you can’t see the outrageous prices for dpfs, egr valves or even the dpf sensors. Just because you have enough money to buy something doesn’t mean it’s a stupid high price. A fool and his money will soon part ways.
The EPA is criminal.... And no I am not for rolling coal. We do need clean air.
Searb reath These trucks run better without the DPF and EGR systems, everything lasts longer and costs less, I do both, use diesels for pleasure and work, and we had so many issues with dpf systems out of warranty we had to eventually buy new trucks or delete the ones we had, it didn’t make money sense to keep it compliant out of warranty when it kept having issues. Same thing with big trucks on the highway, while MANY aren’t fully compliant emissions wise, the ones that are still deal with not making much money at all, due to many concerns including this here.. so yes, while I can afford to stay compliant, it’s completely dumb in my opinion to be forced to keep it compliant, and forced to pay super expensive prices because you know I HAVE to buy it.. regardless of being able to afford it, getting price gauged is stupid. I’m not for smokey douche tunes, I’m more for reliability and money sense as a business owner.
blackscotydog that was a dumb ass, had lighting response!
Searb reath You can stop right there bud. I own a diesel that is deleted because I’m not dumb enough to fix the stupid emissions shit every time it breaks. I’m also a diesel mechanic. I know all about the bs emissions systems and how it chokes the trucks and does nothing but hold it back. I work at a dealership I see the markup on the parts. Get some pink matter between your ears and then you can talk
I don’t want to delete my truck so I can see smoke!!!!!!! What’s the point of that??? I, like everyone else want efficiency, reliability, and power. EGR and DPF are major detractors to that equation. I know Gale doesn’t agree with engines eating their own shit (EGR), but he must tip toe with the EPA. But it should be acknowledged that 98% of people wanting to delete are NOT doing so just to see smoke!
Agree 100%. People dont delete to roll coal. They delete for the massive power and fuel mileage gains.
I was talking to a Cummins Mech. this weekend. He claims 95% of all issues they see with modern engines can be tracked back to the EGR system. He says deletes fix nearly all issues with diesel engines.
@@evernhamanderson yeah and EGR delete does not need DPF delete so it doesn't even add smoke, things just work with DPF delete. As far to usability only downside of EGR delete is slightly slower heating after cold start but that is not an issue in most locations and seems not to bother all engines. By my experience that issue can be helped by restricting airflow to engine bay during winter months. It also prevents some corrosion for the radiator / IC during salty times. No point of having enough airflow to survive in +120F if outside air is close to 0F
@@dougn6465 i have heared that a good tuned egr system improves milage because of burning more of the restfuel in the exhaust gases. And iam not a fan of all these egr stuff.
I recently drove a deleted truck and even at full throttle and high RPM it put out no smoke at all. The tune is what matters. You can tune it to run clean. It's thanks to the coal roller wankers that EPA does this and normal people who want a good, reliable truck that eat shit.
To me, the real issue with DPF is the reliability of the systems themselves.
the concept is flawed.
@@xxxmikeyjock probably in multiple ways
Theres nothing wrong with the DPF's, theres everything wrong with the idiots who buy a diesel and do a school run in it. Or shops and back, diesels are milage monsters, i do 60k miles a year in a Mapped A3, 230,000 miles on the clock, DPF is factory, its never missed a beat. Motorway once a week 70mph (drop a gear, so a 6speed use 5th, a 5speed use 4th) for 15mins, your DPF will never fail you cos you clean the fucking thing out properly
@@AnIdiotAboard_ so you have a sample of one vs my experience across 10 trucks. 5500s with Cummins. Fleet of 10. 60k-100k miles per year. Consistently the dpf systems gave us issues. Two of those trucks had to have full system rebuilds on them at a cost of $15k. Two other trucks had issues that were less significant but still enough to require dealer service.
That's at the core of this vid
$2000 to delete over $5000 for a new DPF. I am choosing deleting. I don't want to roll coal, rolling coal is so stupid. I like clean tunes. There is no need for dirty tunes.
@@scottleggejr Hopefully alot since we are all carbon-based and the more of it the merrier.
It's nice to be able to blast a cloud of black smoke whenever you see leftard protestors blocking your path... or if a road pirate stops you.
Matt 68 Gale has sidestepped the fact that other than laws there are absolutely no reason to keep a dpf!
EPA fines up to $37,500 per day for significant issues and up to $7,500 per day for minor ones. I would say deleting is significant.
@@davidturner6509 I live in a state with no DEQ or vehicle inspections. I have never heard of anyone in my state getting poped with a deleted truck
He missed the entire point of the cost of the emissions systems. Most people who delete just want their truck to run without 5 figure repair cost when it breaks.
Exactly!
A deleted truck will be more efficient, and produce less greenhouse gasses!
Precisely why I deleted mine. 🤷🏻♂️
None of you are smarter than Gale
@@dv7431 you're correct, gale isnt allowed to say what he knows is right without getting Greta and the EPA upset and suspicious with him
You can make power without the full delete, but the full delete increases reliability by an absurd amount. Most of the service problems I see with diesel trucks are DEF system related, with second being EGR issues.
you are basically saying you cannot make any power with an emissions system.
Depends what you class as "power"... because there's always more. What is enough? What are you going to use the vehicle primarily for?
How about a power-to-weight ratio 200bhp/ton?
@@xxxmikeyjock
That's a knee jerk comment
Not what he said
Andre’s smile at the end = just met a legend.
I have alot of respect for banks, he has developed the systems that comply with the epa garbage, while at the same time improving the power. However I would say no matter how good the emissions on tuning is, I would never tune the engine with the emissions on to add more power. I would not want to exercise the dpf/egr any more than it already is, or have to service the system sooner. I realize that the air/fuel ratio remains the same to where there is no smoke, but it would still make a higher quantity of soot even though A/F ratio remains the same.
It will never be better than emissions off tuning. Period. Ive went from 11 mpg to 19 mpg meanwhile not having to worry about the emmisions systems failing. Win-Win in my book.
A lot of the focus is around the dpf. Here's a valid question: Why do manufacturers make these components welded to the exhaust vs having crush seals with clamps so they can be quickly and easily changed out when they do go bad? To normal people, it's rare enough to not be an enormous deal, but when a person uses it as a work vehicle, it can reach the end of its life in three years time. By the time a vehicle reaches 150-200k miles, it's typically devalued to the point it's not cost effective to spend the cash to replace it. So then people buy new vehicles. Sounds like a large carbon footprint to mine, refine, stamp, and manufacture all of the components of a new vehicle no?
Next is the egr (my large gripe). It soot loads the intake and combined with oil from the pcv, it completely gums up everything in the intake. It also soot loads the oil meaning accelerated component wear for any moving part in the engine. Though egr does reduce NOX emissions, whats the trade off here? Suddenly it takes million mile engineering down to 300k. SCR and plastic jugs are another irritating item. If every diesel pump had def nozzles, it wouldn't be as big of a deal but single use plastic jugs are garbage. I'd keep the exhaust crap to keep the epa happy but the egr choking up the entire system is horrible. Higher egr rates also lead to more black smoke production, clogging the dpf faster leading to more frequent regens.
I know gale banks is a brilliant individual in the tuning world, with nearly unparalleled knowledge, but I would like to see him take some stance on what should be acceptable vs too far when it comes to emissions restrictions. Hes got more knowledge on the subject than probably every consultant for CARB and the EPA combined.
I think it depends on the vehicle. It seems to be more common that you can clean a filter instead of just replacing it - Taz.
I have to agree with you MrSkyentist and also the fact that a lot of these items reduce fuel mileage which just pollutes even more. But why make an essentially non-serviceable part for the average joe and something that is thousands of dollars and an absolute pain in the ass to replace. Granted I know this isn't ever vehicle. But it does make things frustrating. And myself being in auto repair industry. When you get a car back in that is stuck in regen mode or clogged up. Do you think that dealership is going to replace all those parts to make it function as normal again or patch it up enough to get it on the lot and working for 5k miles so the customer can cover the cost. I guarantee its gonna be the latter.....so in another few thousand miles gonna be in the same boat again if you don't buy extended warranty. Which lot of times is a rip-off anyways.
As an major domestic certified dealer technician i can promise you OE manufacturers do not care about you (directly), or the ease of a vehicles repair. They care about sales and profit margins. If they can assemble a vehicle faster by having one huge exhaust component they will. It reduces part numbers (build materials) and time to install. Vehicles are built and engineered to be assembled on a mechanical assembly line. Whatever makes that job easier is what they care about. It's easier to pay us flag hour techs in the dealership to repair or replace something later than it is to slow down or stop an assembly line. They don't care about me, you, or anything else. As long as the vehicle is sold and can make it out of warranty, they're good. Also, the engineered lifetime of a vehicle is 150k miles. Lifetime fluids, lifetime filters, etc all are 150k mile services, or until a catastrophic failure, obviously.
@@hpa101 On almost all (the vast vast majority) of light and medium duty trucks, the DPF is at the very least part of a welded assembly with the DOC. They can be cleaned, but the weld between the two has to be cut, and then the assembly has to be rewelded afterwards.
It's just idiotic engineering from the OEMs pushed our way by the idiots in the government.
Perhaps you should consider installing a catch can to deal with the crankcase fumes.My Peugeot has a removable dpf with crush seals
Andre always surprises even the top of the industry with his knowledge!!! People like Andre don't grow on trees!!! Respect!!!!
Honestly the best presenter I've ever watched for technical know-how. Spectacular, just asking the right questions too. Killing it!
Don't just blame the EPA. ROLLING COAL IN TRAFFIC for " fun " just pissed everyone off. When you can't breathe because a 20 year old shows the world he is " SMOOTH brained " you can expect a response cracking down on the bronks out there. Simple.
😂 that’s the point!! I miss the days when someone driving slow af and I pass them dropping it into 6th and giving them a proper reason to drive so slow
Could listen to you two guys chat like that for hours
From the time I saw the first video of you covering the 7 sec Subaru that turns corners, I've always wanted this channel to interview gale banks, thank you!!! I can't wait to see more of you interviewing him, I hope you have more interviews planned!!!
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So the dpf keeps the soot from going into the atmosphere.... and then waste more fuel to burn it out to the atmosphere anyway tell me if im missing something here
Supposedly after oft burnt off it’s cleaner so even tho it’s going out the pipe it’s a different makeup. I call bull crap on all this emission junk. The kids rolling coal need tickets. The shops tuning them this way need to be fined. Whatever. But to take away the option to tune and fully delete from the consumer is just crazy. You can be deleted and efficient. The cool kids are just ruining it for all of us cause they want a smoke tune or have a stupid smoke switch.
Lets not mention the thousands of DEF plastic jugs & cardboard boxes being tossed in the trash. better for the environment eh?
No you got it exactly right. A tuned and deleted truck will outperform a stock truck any way ya analyze it. Power, fuel mileage for sure, no raw fertilizer being burnt in the exhaust, no regens to blow the soot out. Open em all up an let em breathe.
This makes sense to those idiots that vote green at the ballot box?
You're turning it into a less toxic form of emission.
I want reliability, efficiency, and clean air. One of my DEF heaters just failed. Apparently there are like four of these heaters. $800 to replace this one. $1400 to delete it along with 200lbs of other failure prone equipment and never see it again. And I also get a mileage boost. And I don't like a sooty exhaust any more than the drivers behind me so I would never choose to have that.
Hmmm... decisions, decisions.
Andres skill as an interviewer never fails to astound me.
Michael Willoya it really is nice to listen to the way he questions each response, really shows that he’s listening as wel
He is definitely one of the best interviewers out there
Agreed, he’s an effective speaker and well spoken.
Andre actually knows what he’s talking about so many times he’s asking in depth questions he actually cares to hear the answers for.
I disagree, I feel he was talking too much compared to Gale. This is Gales area, let him go in depth and discuss. I found the presenter kept trying to make his opinion and have it justified by Gale, not saying his opinion was correct or incorrect but it seemed the interview was about Andres thoughts more so than Gales.
Can’t wait to hear the outcome of this!! Very contentious topic. Let’s see what the expert says!!!! Cheers for the amazing content as always 🤩💯👌✌️
My intention upon purchase of my diesel truck was to run stock with all smog equipment left intact. Unfortunately the two largest killers of a 6.4 is EGR and DPF. More specifically the regen process. If I had an alternative to deleting the processes I would have chose them.
This guy Banks is such an engineer, all the tech talk is so accurate, is overwhelmingly nice to hear him talk about his thing because he manage all the information right.
Dude I love his channel.
I love tech, even his differential cover series was fascinating and I dont have a truck.
You get what you pay for and he does it right so you'll only buy it once I figure.
Was stationed in California for years. I worked part time in a diesel shop and learned allot. One thing i learned was a fully deleted truck is actually cleaner than a fully emissioned truck. We had tested 2 6.0s, obe was fully deleted and one had all fresh emissions component's and the deleted one passed better
Not all emissions systems are the same and some are better than others, but what exactly where you testing for and who was doing the testing? What were the specific vehicles? That is interesting! - Taz.
have to wonder what "they" were testing to claim a deleted engine was cleaner than emission compliant engine.. pictures/ documents or it didn't happen.. sound more like a "tall tale" you hear so much of from the "delete it" community..
Another awesome piece Andre! Gale Banks is a hero of mine. Can't stop watching
Want to be just like Gale Banks and wear acceptable levels of clothing in public? There's no better way to do it than an HPA tee or hoodie, honest: bit.ly/MerchHPA - Taz 👨🏻
I mean, you say that now, but I'm not so sure the reality would bring you the same joy haha - Taz
What are you talking about?
@@hpa101 Gale, for a guy that built his own company partially so he wouldn't have to do the dress shirt dance, you do cut a figure in a white, button down shirt and formal black jeans! Good to see you there!
@@sexyfacenation you are 100% right.......
I'm always going to say a full delete and proper tune can have no smoke and it operates best, but the stuff Banks power has provided for the legal side of it all is unbelievable and I'm glad to support this company.
@@scottleggejr it's a catch 22 then
For my situation, with the ‘12 lml, I’m not so concerned with more hp and torque, nor rolling coal. My concern is engine life, performance (in getting the most out of a ounce of fuel), and reliability of components.
Awesome video. Thanks for positing it!
Cheers for watching =) - Taz.
We're having dpf issues on our forklifts at work. Brand new 30k forklifts and there's a faulty o-ring that is leaking oil onto the dpf system and catching fire. The regen cycle gets so hot that it makes oil catch fire much easier than before. We had 1 catch fire and a week later one was smoking. Our other sites were having similar problems. None of the filters have "gone bad" though and they've run 24/7 for 2 years straight.
Ahh bugger. Not the first thing or time a manufacturer has gotten something wrong when it comes to o'rings eh. Hope they get you guys sorted out under warranty without too much inconvenience - Taz.
@@hpa101 Yes, yes...clearly an o-ring issue. Nothing to do with the fact that they're are putting DPFs on all diesels and neutering them in both power and reliability. Just an o-ring. Enjoy that downtime and lost revenue, but be glad you did your part to slay the imaginary climate changing air pollution boogeyman.
I love my 6.7 PSD, but the moment I have an issue with the DEF/DPF is the moment I delete, unless the EPA is willing to foot the bill.
All the fuel savings can be easily wiped out by a bad dpf. My vw TDI's dpf cost 3000.00 (82000 miles). I sold it back to VW (now they will have to replace it to resell it. What do you want soot or ash ?
Not a waste of time when your fancy tractor breaks down and you need a $5k filter to run it.
Gale banks pushed for this emissions enforcement.
$5k would be pretty cheap, it is closer to $20k for a fendt 900 series.
"are DPF deletes a waste of time" Short answer - No
sure they are the engine dumps raw fuel into the thing to burn it clean so they save no emissions in the end just dump it all at once and not a little every time
@Jim John , I know a guy that only rents his new trucks so he doesn't have to worry about maintenance or down time. He said it is not eating into his profits either, because just like you said, the newer trucks tend to have a 30% uptick in maintenance and down time.
I run Schaeffer's 10w30 Ultra SynShield : www.schaefferoil.com/722-ultra.html
In a 2020 Ford F-450 and I use AR6200 in every tank. In Canada I had a team of experts that have made the truck much more efficient without the EPA :). Amsoil is used in the transmission, transfer case and differentials. My goal is to to get 1 million miles out of the motor. All I can say is this truck rips.
Diesel emissions are bull$hit. Diesel engines hardly ever fail. What fails- dpf, egr cooler, intake clogged with soot from egr, etc. Make these devices last 500k miles routinely, no one would complain. Dpfs go out all the time, and they take out the engine with them. Modern delete tunes increase reliability, longevity, and often double the fuel mileage of the truck. It has nothing to do with blowing smoke.
True
I have a 5.9 cummins and the guy who owned it before me had a tune to roll coal but he gave me the tuner he used and I redone the tune to reduce the coal and now it runs almost a little puff of coal that is barely noticeable
The only unplanned issues with the semi I drive was the automatic transmission and emissions system. Neither are reliable;( once deleted there were obviously no more emissions issues;) I’d never buy a new semi, couldn’t afford the massive downtime.
DPF is part of the assault on small businesses, owner operators. They want to make it so expensive to operate diesels that only large corporate fleets can afford them... ultimately they want to phase out drivers altogether and have their automated trucks doing the work. This would kill millions of high-paying jobs for a lot of Americans.
Going through that right now
I'd never buy a Diesel.
@@69A12SuperBee
I don't drive a truck but I stay away from any 08 or newer diesel in my fun time , because they aren't fun anymore with the crap that made them unsimple.
I'll keep playing with my non common rail diesels and still have fun.
MrHillfolk Definitely agree with you on that one! 👍🏻
🔥🔥🔥 more of this!!!!
This has to go down in youtube history 2 of the greatest engine modification building tutorial guys on the 1 stage this would make an epic tv series
deathrodcustoms Agreed and I cant believe it doesn’t have more views . Gale is an icon in the industry,his high standards have never come down,everything he builds is worth installing and it tested in the Dyno,the lab and the real world .
I would love to see Gale do a video discussing backpressure due to DPFs especially after the latest killing a duramax video.
I forget if he said in an old video or when I talked to him about his new exhausts but the new dpf's are actually very free flowing.
Agree, you can tell hes bitting his lip about the emissions crap
Back pressure is bad for all engines. Gale is dumb.
@@BeastlyWarrior228 No, he did do a marketing video showing the "benefits" of his $$$ dpf back tail pipe. Might have even shown some of it during one of his Killing a Duramax series. I believe he showed in that video the DPF was a significant restriction. I believe the stock turbo was also a large restriction.
Bank's wish he had an automotive tuning school.. he would be an awesome teacher.. this man is a scientist with his approach to everything he does.
God Bless Gale! He's a gem to the automotive industry. I knew of Banks Power before I was 10(20 years ago) and knew anything about cars/trucks
I get why he’s saying this, he can’t sell illegal and always was emissions friendly products for the times. The problem is, there is no denying the data almost 2 decades of emissions controls on diesels has proven. The 6.0 EGR issues, the 6.4 early DPF trucks frying motors (the 6.7 Cummins had emissions gremlins too), and on the new ones the fluid is a nightmare. I have a 05 F350 long box CC 4x4 lariat, it has 285,000 miles on it, deleted EGR at 200,000 but all stick otherwise, and finally lost its head gaskets a few months ago. I studded it, put in the updated oil cooler and a 4 inch mbrp turbo back, it’s running fantastic and I fully expect to see 500,000 miles now from it, and I average 24 mpg on the highway, I drive slow lol but can’t beat it. My dad has had his 2008 F350 6.4 since brand new, deleted at 150,000, dpf and egr, 4 inch flow pro with muffler but no cat. That truck now has 234,000 not a single issue, with proper maintenance it should go a long way. We both use SCT x4 trans only emissions off tunes, neither truck rolls any coal, they run great. I have 3 friends with 2018-2019 trucks, one duramax, one powerstroke and one Cummins. Each and every one has been in for clogged DPF, regen issues. I’ve towed the dodge home with 700 miles on the clock because the spot filter sensor was too plugged up to command a regen. Two weeks ago my buddies powerstroke threw a rod towing his travel trailer and sled on the deck, no warning. I went and pulled his shit home with my 15 year old clunker and got better mpg to boot. All failures are emissions related. It’s crazy anyone can dance around the overwhelming evidence on this. The 6.4 goes from a driving time bomb to a good motor just by deleting that shit before you get too much blow by and oil dilution. The 6.0 once deleted and updated is one of the best diesels on the road. Emissions is garbage.
I got 475,000 on my deleted 07’ 6.0 1 ton Lariat. Im aiming for 1 million miles. Truck has held up great. I don’t roll coal or race it. I use it like a truck and spend good money maintaining it. The new 6.7s are nice but my 6.0 is so easy to work on and damn reliable.
Gale Banks is amazing. I've always been a fan, but I absolutely love his TH-cam channel and how he breaks everything down step by step. I had never been a diesel guy, but I've totally gotten into diesels lately, and I have his channel to thank for that.
My 99 6.5 suburban sounds great straight piped. Now if only I could tow uphill... 🤔😅
So how do you your "PREVENT" soot in the manifold, intakes, EGR etc?( which caused trying to meet EPA standards) The exhaust soot and emission issue on discharge is addressed.
What after market piggyback electronics prevent the recirc "soot" issues , heavy contamination of engine oil that is caused directly by this recirc issue verses normal air intake contamination and blow by of older models?
Anything that will improve on the current O.E. design to perform as well as a delete . Thanks
My dad modified his diesel trucks from 70s to 80s and taught me if you blow smoke its not burning correctly. Its a shame that oems with the EPA don't focus on legitimate efficiency over restrictive inefficiencies. Thankfully we at least have these brilliant gentlemen doing their best to bridge that gap within our current allowances.
In high performance applications smoke is absolutely a good thing
I respect his approach to engine development, I think he's spot on. I want a properly developed engine that runs clean w/o the emission controls/restrictions on it.
Spoiler alert: you can't.
Diesel is clean in the first place.
Living legend for sure, a pioneer of turbo charging petrol aswell as diesel engines.
Also the mileage goes up when you delete well I should say it did on the older ones
Clean deletes and tunes with no rolling coal. He even stated at Bonneville 222mph and no smoke. No DPF/DEF either. I think what the EPA is trying to do is force people to not buy trucks unless it’s absolutely necessary such as pulling trailers or for work. It seems the prices are getting so high as well nobody will be able to afford them and they will become rare and only for the rich.
Modern Diesel engines are very efficient and when properly tuned do not smoke. Adding dpf and def only increases the cost of the vehicle and vehicle ownership while reducing longevity. ie getting 12-14 mpg in a truck vs 18-22 mpg in a deleted truck. At what point does having slightly better emissions out weigh the substantial amount of extra fuel burned.
Thank you
Emissions equipped semis are definitely less reliable. I’ve been stranded many times on the side of the highway because of that
Only slightly better emissions? Are you sure?
The main focus of emissions controls is NOx. The current crop of engines with EGR and SCR produce about 1/10th the NOx of engines without. That's a much greater reduction than the loss if overall fuel economy. (have actually done a study at work to verify this)
Well said, I have both pre and a post def trucks and my older unit gets far better mileage and doesn’t smoke.
Please inform me how letting your Egr releasing carbon and soot direct into your intake is good for the consumer? Also please tell me how making a whole industry to produce, Deff fluid, truck the fluid service the system helps anyone? Anyone who has a truck with def know the waste buy buying a box of def makes any thought?
Yes it's tricky to get perfect, and things take a few generations to really get dialled in, but it's still more than doing nothing. I guess the actual usage of vehicles will be targeted next if things like this fall over in certain countries which no doubt will get more hate than diesel particulate filtration systems.
I certainly don't have all the answers but can see both sides to all this - Taz.
@@hpa101 Why are people making glider 2020 semi trucks with older Cummins, Caterpillar, and Detroit engines? No one wants to be stranded in the middle of the nowhere in limp mode/ derate. Diesels thrive with 2 things air and fuel that's basic stoichiometry. In small engine applications whether it be cummins, duramax, or powerstroke the turbos restrict the engine on purpose to keep egts higher and egrs cleaner. The mess of oil dilution, cylinder wash down, cracked heads, and turbo failure follows suit. Emissions are a joke and there are valid reasons for removal such as high sulfur diesel, racing, gliders, and reliability. But of course someone with a new diesel engine ought to know they are buying into a whole suit of problems when the sensors go haywire.
There is no good for the individual owner. The cost of the vehicle, the cost of poor fuel mileage, the cost of DEF, the cost of added maintenance and the cost of mechanical failures due to emission equipment designed for the dinosaur era all mean less value to the owners. It seems the EPA is good with the extra cost per individual to get the overall results in emissions at no cost factor limits. No business could survive that business model. These soot and NOx controls are archaic devices that cost a fortune to maintain/use. I say if you don't really need a diesel buy a gasoline engine and forget about giving up tens of thousands to the vehicle makers and the subcontractors who are failing BIG in the emission controls. Just look as the gasoline engines of today...they have more power and torque than the older muscle car engines that polluted big in the 60's yet way less pollution due to engineering within the induction systems and controlling fuel more precisely. They haven't spent enough engineering time on the diesel so this is the jalopy idea they are using for now.
@Jake Heke these rules and devices go further than just one country and one organisation - Taz.
@Jake Heke that shit won't fly at all in most of Europe, and to be fair the whole 'rolling coal' crowd put a big spotlight on things in the US which is not something that was as much of an issue elsewhere.
No matter what your passion or interests are there is always some minority out there to make life harder for the majority but emissions are an issue that is not going to go away anytime soon and not one the EPA solely created either - Taz.
So after all that great info, anh chance you could clarify some details about EGR.
I understand how it works what it does and even why it's been implemented. I just don't get how come it in theory only works for very limited amounts of time and generally only until the engine gets to a decent operating temperature, so why does it end up coking the heck out of inlet manifolds something chronic.
Is it that they fail to work correctly in virtually every motor made or is it that some one has decided to compromise the long term over the short term?
There must be a better way forward that uses the energy in that coke before it chokes the inlet and robs performance and compromises the long term efficiency of a motor.
I have a 2009 ford f250 I don't know how to save this engine. Truck was bought new it only has 9000 miles. Almost new but I know what happens to the 6.4 with regen process. I'm in Ca don't want to egr/dpf delete. Looking for alternative to fix or help truck run, Had ideas about maybe dumping oil frequently and refilled after, any ideas.
Politicians need to leave engine performance to the engine builder ! Politicians ruin everything they touch. Greasy ,Bloats . Awesome video !)
Based on what I’ve seen from their display desk Gales solution to your problematic dpf system is to add more electronics to it that can break.
Gale is and has been the consummate Gentleman performance engine master for many years. His goals to make clean power are simple , attainable & proven. I have no need for a GM Duramax engine vehicle but would surely incorporate his performance products if I did.
its fine to tell us what we want ,but how do you deliver it?
Andre and Gale Banks, awesome. Can you please just do an hour sitdown with him!
Deletes are just going underground or they're sold "for offroad use only". Some wont sell to California or at least claim to. They can try to go after the retailers of deletes. Good luck with that!
Where have you been? They actually have been doing that. The largest (one of) PPEI no longer offers tunes due to the EPA. As well as many other large tuners. Go find me one willingly advertising a customer delete tune, I'll wait.
They've always been "off-road" deletes.
@@VegasJPH I am getting a delete tune for my Mercedes. I pretty much have to email back and forth with tuners so they can feel me out whether I'm a narc. It's like buying drugs from a dealer now.... so I'm told.
What's the amount of energy it takes to mass produce and build the machine to mass produce the parts and the pumps that require def on the fuel pumps and plastics from the bottles if you carry extra in the vehicle. My 05 dodge without the catalytic converter pollution was the same before and after my emissions test. Like gale said back pressure equal more efficiently
I have a 2019 Duramax, With 400,000 highway miles 50% loaded 50% empty, I've been using the deranger and the IDash for about 250,000 miles. I've kept it on stock setting for a long time because I'm afraid it will clog my original DPF filter As the mileage is getting high. Everything is still stock and original.
Why the hell would you keep your emmisons on a out of warranty truck? 😂🤡 more power, better reliability, and fuel economy
I don't mind all the emissions stuff. I love clean air. Just mandate the manufacturers warranty them for 200,000 miles.
I prefer my engine to last. They can stick the emissions.
The pollutants still go into the atmosphere at some point. Either constantly like pre emissions or only during regen cycles. Sure you can mandate a manufacturer and force them to over a 200k warranty but they will then triple the price of the product. Regulations always cost the consumer always will
Too bad only Honda gave one million kilometer (625 thousand miles!) / 10 year warranty for their Diesel engined Civic in France. And those are reliable even with all emission stuff but manufacturer just have to make it well.
@@Karjis That's impressive!
I wrench for a global company that has around 30k medium and heavy duty trucks and one thing is guaranteed by 100k to 130k 80% of those trucks will have a engine light or emissions light on , we spend more time on emissions than anything else ,and don't get me started on pushing dirty exhaust back thru the engine , egr , junk ..
Thank he makes a great point but why can't we get a Cummins tune from Banks
Those days are far from over. There are plenty of tuners out there. And parts as well.
Gale banks... I love his data driven approach and a real nice guy.
Started with a banks turner on my 03. Switched to a smarty and the power was night and day difference. Smarty throws alot more smoke, unfortunately, but theres no denying the power difference between the 2 tunes. Gale's trying to keep the diesel industry on the right side of the law. Cant knock him for that.
Your mind would be blown by a correct tune from a reputable hptuner dealer.
Completely unrelated but what do you think of cryogenic hydrogen for racing? The cars would not need a cooling system as you could have some of the fuel flow through the block, thus reducing weight and being "green"
Love how Gale actually knows how all this stuff works and works within the law to provide good, legal products.
he is a snake oil salesman and always has been. he sells the same shit as every one else but for some reason his fanbois will pay 10 times as much
Banks: Our race engines don't smoke! Also Banks: Alright guys, let's bolt those 4 nitrous kits on!
after he publicly made fun of people using nitrous for years
I had a LML deleted I asked for it not to burn coal lol never did like it but maan that truck could move needles to say who ever bought it at the dealer or auction got a real treat now Ive got a l5p 2023 denali hd and I kinda miss the power on my LML 😢 but cant get enough of this ride quality 🤯
I work at a railyard, our hostler trucks have 6.7 cummins in them and the EGRs and DPFs cause these trucks to need to be in the shop for replacements so often makes the trucks unreliable
I was watching hoonigan kunkle busters tuning there Cummins and reading the comments everyone saying gale banks, heard the name watching old hotrod magazine channel, so i search gal banks like oh yea it's that tuning guy then back in my subs, oh hp with banks how crazy it's like the internet wants me to watch banks channel and learn more about diesel motors
Josh Story Check out his roast of the tuner session.
@@jonasthemovie as someone who watch both channels. I wish he had seen more off the back story to see where Dan's at , than do a " Roast " Imo it was not worth is time, Gale is beyond manufacturers in get the numbers. Hoonigan should have gone to Banks at the start.
What's a *Cummings* ?
*their*
Hoonigan is doing a duramax not a Cummins tho.
Cummins.
Increase cetane in the fuel I.e. use a high quality Diesel. Helps a lot with soot and gives more power
I buy Cetane online and add it to my cheap diesel, it works and it's cheaper than buying premium diesel, at least it is in Germany.
Can they tune Detroit Diesel DD15 CUMMINS IX15?
Hi Gale! Would you consider doing a tear down of a higher mileage (300,000 km plus) L5P that
has been equipped with all of the emissions systems for its whole life so we can see how they are holding up?
They do a lot during R and D. And Gale knows stuff better than anyone here
the added reliability of removing them far outweighs whatever performance gain there may be.
Gale banks the godfather of turbo diesel
He is, but he is wrong about emissions.
Will Banks be making a tune for the wrangler/gladiator diesel?
At the end of the day, horsepower is a function of air and fuel delivery. My truck (6.4) with the DPF on is capable of maybe 400-450 RWHP safely. You could turn it up but it wouldn't be long before something blew. Take the DPF off and I can run a quarter mile in 12.9-13.1 seconds, which is about 650-670 RWHP considering the weight of the truck. Cats and DPFs create massive amounts of air restriction in the form of backpressure, which reduces power output and sends EGTs sky-high. I don't much care for smoke. I went with Gearhead tunes for that exact reason (clean tunes, 6.4s can be really smoky). The top end power is the same if not better than the box H&S tunes. However, I lost quite a bit of response on the bottom end (more lag). My buddy with a 6.7 noted the same thing.
If it's tuned properly it shouldn't lose anything down low with turbo/etc being un touched.. Look at the banks tune graphs, they don't lose anywhere even with DPF.
Ladies and gentlemen, you just met Mr. Banks, the godfather of charge!
If a diesel engine smokes visibly, it is by definition a failed tune. Inefficient combustion does not an efficient, powerful and reliable engine make.
4G12 you butchered the English but yes. I find it funny because I’ve heard a diesel tuner say that they smoke when making max power but then why do all factory diesel vehicles clear up under wide open throttle but smoke like a coal train under partial load. Don’t think they would make it run that shit WOT on purpose. So I can’t wait to see more on this topic so I can roast people who think they are billy badass for blowing coal on traffic and getting gapped by petrol engines. These are the principles that makes the car, truck and motorcycle communities all have their own major turn offs.
Tell that to the tractor that can now make it up the hill. Smoke starts at about 18-20 afr. Full power is around 16-18 afr with diesel.
@@CorruptInfinityOfficial no smoke no poke
@@josephschaefer9163 Yea, but that tractor is rebuilt every 5-10 min of full power runs, some even less!
@g4rr377 All smoke, no poke - Taz.
Andre outside of Andy, Gale is my one of my other hero's in the industry for me. Awesome interview.
Great interview man
Chur! - Taz.
I just delete and run good tuners with 0 smoke. Unless u slam in the throttle a lil smoke comes out but other than that u get for what u pay for so don’t cheap out on tunes everyone thats looking to delete there truck.
I've never owned a diesel vehicle, but Gale Banks is still one of my automotive heroes. He's no nonsense and never shies away from calling someone out when they're doing something thenwrong way. He knows exactly what he's talking about and he's willing to explain how and why things work so people will learn. He's not some curmudgeon that holes away hiding his secrets.
Another great video with a diesel, Legend, Gail Banks.!!!
Throwing epa and dpf out for a moment, I have a question regarding diesels as I have very limited experience with modifying these as compared to gasoline engines.
If all the black smoke from the tailpipe is representing unburned fuel what are the pros and cons to this? In the early tuner days all the big name brand tuners it seemed when installed would roll coal. I'm referring to the days of the late 7.3s, 6.0s, Duramaxes, etc up until the deletes became an issue. It seems to me, contrary to Banks, although I want to know, that these other companies aren't just stupid.
So is the added fuel being used for a cooling effect or something else? And from the con perspective, and gasoline experience, wtf is this doing to piston rings and cylinder bores?
Gale always seemed like a timeless intellect but this is the first time I've seen him hesitate. I hope he stays around a long time. What a tremendous contribution he's made to the automotive industry.
He had a busy weekend at the show and we caught him at the tail end, so no doubt a bit tired at this point =) - Taz.
I would have loved for him to delve into the details of diesel being used to cool the charge to increase charge density. Yeah a lot of smoke comes out unburned but that doesn't mean it isn't doing something, it's using the latent heat of diesel gas to take heat out of the chamber since it takes so much energy to turn something from liquid to gas. I've mentioned this before, you see it in old F1 videos they call it "fluff", and diesel guys have told me that while some extra is definitely helpful, the huge amounts of smoke coming out of "rolling coal" is far beyond the useful amount of extra fuel.
Because I don't know where that line gets crossed exactly it would have been nice if somebody as knowledgeable as Gale Banks would have let us know at what point is it totally wasted and how much is actually helpful instead of just saying we fully comply with all emissions blabla unless we're racing. People don't do rolling coal for no reason at all. It must have at least started as a way to increase power even if they go far beyond, but I really don't know, it's too bad Gale couldn't answer...
It from tractor pulling where they run so much diesel to try and keep the turbocharger alive, it's stupid but less expensive than buying the 5000-10000 dollars of sensors and several hundred of dyno and calculation hours to get the EGT down and boost to backpressure under control.
@sirgallium We get emails from people asking how to teach them to make their exhaust produce 'AK47 noises'. Trust me, people 'roll coal' for no reason at all other than because they think it's fun to do so in a street application.
That aside, your question has some merit, although Gale did make it clear that even in his racing applications the goal is 'clean' burning. I wouldn't go as far to state he couldn't answer the question though as he wasn't directly asked it. It's hard to cover everything on one topic in a single interview, but we will be back talking about this again in the future I have no doubt.
I can't comment from my personal experience on The Esseboy's comment, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were truth to that. Many people put budget above performance - Taz.
@@hpa101 Sorry about your emails but that's hilarious. You make a good point about his goals being clean burning, and I didn't mean to imply that the question couldn't be asked, engines are an endlessly broad topic and I appreciate everything you did have the time to go over. I'm guessing that the useful upper limit is when there is so much extra fuel that the charge is oxygen deprived. And I wouldn't doubt rolling coal starting at tractor pulls partly for utility but also for spectacle.
I believe rolling coal is basically used to get the turbo to spool. Excess fuel creates heat in a diesel, this helps the turbo spool. You'll notice that the soot will clear up when the engine comes up onto boost
@@hpa101 I was watching more Gal Banks and I just wanted to get back to you because I think I figured out the answer to my own question. The reason smoke is so associated with diesels tuned up to make more power is because since there is no throttle body you can initially make more power by just turning up the fuel. However at some point turning it up more will no longer create more power because you start to run out of oxygen. The amateurs don't really notice or care about this and just turn the pressure way up, and it gets them more power, so they're happy. I still don't fully understand the "fluff" qualifying F1 turbo tunes from the old days though. It must be for cooling, but then they turn the fuel back down so that they have enough fuel for a whole race whereas during qualifying it doesn't matter how inefficient it is.
I looked up an old qualifying lap and you can see a pretty large cloud come out the back when they step on it, but it's not exactly smoke. It looks like a mix somewhere between vapor and smoke. But since a solvent fuel is so much different than an oil fuel I'm not sure how much you can really compare the exhaust gasses.
Most of the people I know, besides my graduating high school class are mostly deleting their diesels not to roll coal and blow smoke all over the place, but mostly its for fuel efficiency, reliability, and it's much cheaper to do than replacing/repairing your prematurely failed EGR/DPF. And now these EPA jerks aren't seeing the issues with emissions control systems making these perfectly good newer diesel truck so unreliable compared to their predecessors.
I have been watching lots of these Banks videos and he comes across as a realistic businessman. He doesn't expect to change the state of California's CARB's or EPA's mind so he is using the required regulations to his advantage to make a better product within the Customer, i.e.Government Regulator's, restrictions/requirements. I would be willing to bet that if he was allowed and thought that the future business climate would allow DPF, EGR delete etc. that he would make an even more efficient, reliable and better all around system. A lot of people seem to want him to take a stand badmouthing the regulators, and congressman but that is foolhardy for a person in his position.
I solved all my issues with DPF crap, I went back to gas engine vehicles.
now, I don't have to buy that ridiculous DPF FLUID.
yea now you burn twice the fuel towing a heavy load compared to a diesel.
The fluid you add is DEF. Diesel exhaust fluid. You thinking of the diesel particulate filter.
I own a 2018 F250 and I had installed the Bank Power Derringer and I swear this thing didn’t gave me more than 40 hp and my regeneration rate have never change. This thing is way to expensive for what it’s give.
caan1403 There’s only so much power you can add before you need to increase the capacity of the exhaust emissions equipment. If the tune added more power it would just plug up the factory exhaust quicker.
Banks is a god when it comes to making power and being efficient! Look and high hp imports they run super clean cause power comes from efficiency! Something diesel tuners dont do as well!
i always preferred the tunes that Banks offered even back with deletes. they always almost had a guarantee of no smoke and i personally liked that. never have liked smoke, but i do enjoy knowing an engine will theoretically last longer with less parts prone to failure. weird how we cannot have that happy middle ground.
Notice that they never talk on his nasty def is to the environment
I bet if my ecm was tuned correctly along with all my emissions deleted that I would run cleaner than any truck decked out with fuel robbing bullshit
At the end of the day the guys at Calibrated Power & Banks Power have made it possible over these years to still be able to tune these trucks & gain hp as well. I'd call that a win win, especially when you're able to keep everything intact with all that power too. Yes the emissions systems have their faults but over the years they haven't really been that bad. The company my Dad works for has a fleet of diesels and for the most part they've all been doing decent, in fact more of the trucks that do have problems aren't really emissions related. The 2005 Silverado 3500 HD is falling apart due to old age, the 2009 Silverado 3500 HD just has a ton of computer issues, the 2016 Sierra 3500 HD (which has 300k miles btw), the only emissions issue it's had is the DEF injector sensors getting melted preventing the truck from going into regen causing it to get plugged up with soot, (Truck Master has a great vid on this with his GMC as he had the same issue with it). Yeah it was not cheap to fix, but nothing on a diesel is most of the time. Since then it's been great with very minimal issues, the other truck is a 2019 F350 which they haven't had it for that long so it's too new to see how reliability will be on it.
The point being is that any truck can have it's issues, some more than not. But as far as reliability with those systems if it's been properly maintained it will last a long time!!
Agreed! I don't get why people blame those companies for what they are doing either. They have not created the laws that they are finding solutions for us all within.
Bad news certainly travels faster than good in relation to failures as well, not that DPFs, in particular, have had a great start or even great support in supply (and yes that SUCKS for the unlikely ones dealing with it), but that is not Banks or Calibrated Powers etc fault.
Cheers for sharing some of the 'slower travelling' good news/experience 😎
@@hpa101 Anytime! I’ll have to admit though one of my favorite Banks Power vids is the one with Guy Fieri in his 2021 GMC Sierra 3500 HD Dually Long Bed Denali reacting to all the power upgrades he got, especially when he went sideways with it a little bit haha.
Cool. When they come up with a DFP filter that doesn't gunk up, is repairable or doesn't cost $5-10k to replace every 100k miles, let me know.
Will this work for a semi tractor?