@@keil5239odd a lore decision it may be, it would make me smile to see Dorn come back in a Primarch version of the Custodes Telemon Heavy Dread. Would definitely let him give traitors an imperial fisting.
@@akumaking1End and the Death Vol II, Dorn is lost is the Vengeful Spirit with Khorne tempting him constantly. Dorn holds him off by talking about the history of war and economic impact and bores him to his ultimate escape
I mean Dorn didn't really go missing Peter Turbo just challenged him to a game of dawn of war... they are still on their first match... 9000 years later
@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755 I would say killing the Emperor (potentially, possibly by his own design) is pretty pertinent. The Thieves Guild and the Companions though...
It’s early in the video, so forgive me if you mention it, but Baldemort’s three parter on Rogal Dorn and “The Longest Second” is absolutely masterful storytelling.
I always wanted to like Rogal Dorn but never could until I heard the audio about him rejecting Khorn for hundreds of years. That was very well written and gave a deeper insight into his character that I had never gotten before.
Yeah Rogal Dorn and his legion are a lot more adaptable than the iron warriors combat style and perturabos command style. The Iron Warriors kind of force people into their preferred way of fighting rather than adapting their own tactics to deal with how the enemies fight. They want to force grinding attrition.
Makes sense really. He understood that without his legion, Terra would be destroyed. He was right yet again after his disappearance if not for the Last Wall. He was tasked as its defender, and so when he was presented with only two unacceptable options, he chose neither. He could simply comply with Roberta Girlyman which would inevitably destroy Terra one way or another. Or he could war with Girlyman, and destroy it right here and now; and so he bent. Thus Terra still stands.
Royal Dorn keeping and using his grandfathers cloak as a safety blanket is always just so damn heart warming. Like just a great fact to know about the guy.
It’s actually the opposite, both physically and ideologically. Perturabo never “breaks” only bends. Dorn stayed true to his ideals and loyalties but fucking died in the process
My man has had a catastrophic skill issue and he imparted it to anyone watching lol This saying only makes sense if you're talking about *pig* iron, which is an iron-carbon alloy like steel, but with much more carbon in it.
I actually like that. "Do not use steel when iron will suffice". I'm getting older, reaching that dreaded 4-0 in a couple years, and I can see the wisdom in that. You're right, on the surface it's "work smarter, not harder", "don't overcomplicate the solution". But I don't think it means that. You're right that Rogal had more steel in him than iron, he was flexible in his thinking and tactics where they called for it. But he had an iron core to him, to his beliefs. Iron may not bend, and it will appear brittle. But make it right, solid, and hold firm to yourself. And the world can wreck itself trying to break you. Edit: Or i'm just talking out my ass. Anyways, good stuff Maynard.
Lets be honest, we all got a warm toasty feeling when Arthur mentioned Kor Phaeron going feet first into a wood chipper. Ahhhhhhh.....like slipping into a warm bath.
Kitten: Doooorn! What are you doing?! Dorn: I am fortifying this position. Kitten: WHY?!? Dorn:The best offence is a good defence. Kitten: Aw, for Terra's sake...
I recently finished Perturabo's primarch novel "The Hammer of Olympia" and knew this is where you were going with this video when I saw the title. Spoilers ahead: To my mind, the central metaphor of Perty's novel revolves around the "Iron within. Iron without" motto of the IVth Legion. Barabas Dantioch is defeated when the hrud rust away his iron without. For Perturabo, however, there is a sentence in Chapter Two which foreshadows his fate: "Poorly forged iron might shatter when hit by a precise blow." The rebellion of Olympia is the blow that shatters Perturabo's iron within. As someone who sees a lot of himself in Perturabo, I sometimes wonder if being a Dorn isn't preferable.
What makes some people call Dorn boring is the same reasons he is compelling as a character. Picture the word collapsing around you your facing unstoppable tides of unknown horror that is seemingly unstoppable most people in such a situation would panic mentally break down weep in Terror then you see a man as calm as ice a will of iron he is your rock the only the only who can lead you through the darkness withstand the pressure and either guide you through it or make the last moments manageable that is Rogal Dorn Stone incarnate the will to stare into the dark uncaring void and never blink Iron will bend but stone is indomitable it can weather any hit take any kind of punishment it may chip away it may break but only in the end when it breaks it’s be issue the force against it out in all its strength to crack it open
Indomitability and stoicism do not engage with conflict very much. Done just endures rather than raging against his enemies. People think that’s boring because it isn’t a spectacle like Russ or Magnus or even the Lion would make of a situation.
Another extremely interesting example of how Dorn was able to pivot and adapt was when he was in the midst of an argument with Alpharius (or Omegon) in the aftermath of a compliance campaign. When they seem at an impasse in terms of "open warfare" vs "subterfuge" during the argument, Dorn actually pivots the conversation and criticizes the Alpha Legion's black ops approach during the campaign via criteria that Alpharius himself would value.
Honestly if Dorn comes back I think they would have to really balance out the setting again. I mean the imperium has: Blueberry Boy to do the logistics/ planning Mr. Lion for the attack Lord ADornable for the defense
It's why I like the idea of some of the more independently minded Primarchs, who are more loyal to big E than the Imperium deciding that it's too far gone and needs to be fought against. Say Corax, The Khan or Russ
@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755 But it's also been ten THOUSAND years since then, time in which both of the Primarchs have grown and changed their worldviews. They could probably set aside past differences nowadays, especially since Guilliman is a LOT less strict about "muh codex" these days than he was right after the Heresy, seeing how much the Codex actually crippled the Imperium and the Astartes.
@@Eye_Of_Odin978 They could also just not. Wait until Dorn finds out the Last Wall turned out to be necessary thus proving Girlyman and his codex really was the doom of the imperium. Girlyman is going to have to admit breaking the legions was a colossal mistake and do a U turn, because I don't see any way Dorn can rationalise that playing along with the Codex is the best course of action. Either there's some kind of friction or they kiss and make up. One of these is narratively more exciting than the other.
People always talking about how if Dorn returns he should have the Emperor’s Claw. I disagree, the claw is meant more for someone who is precise and quick. Dorn is a tool a weapon, he should have the Emperor’s Bolter.
I'd like that, but honestly he doesn't need any weapon from the emporer because he is his greatest weapon. After 10k years it is Dorns sons alone who still carry out the emperor's great crusade.
Stuff like this is why I love Dorn. He’s not a complex character, but his personality and philosophy are each unique and well written. It’s also why I think it’s dumb people just say “Perty is great Dorn sucks”. Both are good, and as this video states they exist as two sides of the same coin. The only difference is that Dorn understands the values in making mistakes and learning. Perturabo doomed himself constantly trying to avoid making mistakes altogether.
Dorn and perty are so similar except for the one quality that perturabo was never able to cultivate: humility. Everything perty does is built around the idea that th previous thing being right and unquestioning. The idea of admiting he was wrong or possibly mistaken would break any sense of identity and self esteem that he built up. Meanwhile dorn is more then able to admit he was wrong, and learn as a person from it. Also, calling it now: Dorn will be coming back as a dreadnaught to counter perty being a giant tank daemon primarch.
Rogal is everything Perturabo COULD have been, had the circumstances been different. The Emperor should have given Pert more autonomy and creative initiatives. Say what you will about Perturabo, he was a genius. Emps utilized him improperly imo.
I find him to be to be quite an interesting character, I really enjoyed him in the end and death, and while he doesn't blow your socks off with the dynamism of his unpredictable personality, I always found his autistic stolidness even in the most extreme circumstances endearing.
Rogal's struggle in the End and the Death helped me recontextualize my experience with my internal struggles - I will makes plans, one will work, I will break free.
Mental fortitude is key in this world of suffering and strife we find ourselves in, friend. That is also what makes ME like Rogal as much as I do. It's not his strength of muscle but his strength of WILL that inspires me to march on through every indignity and hardship life lays in my path.
It's difficult for me to articulate why Dorn became my favorite Primarch. This was before the SoT and the Khan and Sanguinius arrived with their Legions but there was this small window of time right after the Dropsite Massacre where RD and the 7th truly believed that they were the last men standing between the Imperium and Horus and I thought that there was something incredibly endearing about that. The last loyal men vs all the darkness of the galaxy. Very noblebright. The very reason space marines are so cool.
I think an example of Perturabo's inability to bend when needing to is his isssues with communication. He was used to not expressing his needs and choosing to act at the whims of what was needed by those who were meant to support him (with the exception of his sister). He never complained about what he wanted to do in life and just got the job done, and that didn't change when the Emperor of Mankind found and recruited him. He was able to communicate what he wanted to do rather than just go about what his father commanded, but he didn't. Perturabo just did what he was used to and did whatever job he was given without any complaint, until, like Iron, he was eventually broken by this the burden he put on his back to carry.
If one compares Dorn and perturabo to tools, Dorn is a steel blade cutting to the heart of the matter, enough strength to bend and enough hardness to stay true. Perty is a cast iron frying pan, heavy and extremely hard but also brittle in equal measure. He is also kind of a blunt instrument.
@@tidehunterzamora9315 And shattered itself REPEATEDLY, including genociding his home planet and crying when his sister calling him out. Dude was fragile.
The Steel and Iron analogue reminds of the one Donal Noye says to John Snow in ASOIAF "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."
I loved the video. i also love dorn and the fists in HH. the legion's character/flavor isn't as strong as "viking werewolves" or "vampire angels", so I thought Dorn and the fists were boring for a long time until I read about them in heresy novels. Now they're my main heresy army.
He is my favorite primarch for those reasons and for his changing and ultimately sobering perspective as the Heresy goes on. When it kicks off, Dorn has to come to terms with the reality of his art that is the Imperial Palace. Ultimately it must be torn down to serve in a war for survival that he and his brothers ultimately brought upon countless human and xenos empires alike. Its also just him suffering through having to be the stoic face of defiance against Horus's onslaught and constantly trying to deal with the stress and mental fatigue of an entire Imperium looking to him in their most dire hour. And in what he believe to be his failure after Emps is thrown on the golden thrown, his mental break and where that leads him in the end just makes him one of the most fascinating primarchs to read about in my opinion. so yeah, fuck the iron warriors.
From a sales perspective, I think Leman will be the next Loyal Primarch to return. Mainly because there is currently only 1 "Primarch level" Character per codex right now. Abaddon being that for the main Chaos Marine codex. When Fulgrim returns, it will be in a whole new Emperors children codex that we know is coming. So if Dorn is next, they'd have to create a whole "Sons of Dorn" Codex including Imperial/Crimson Fists, Black Templars and others. Which would be cool, but I think less likely than just giving the Space Wolf codex its Primarch level Character first
Honestly thats probably what will happen, although it could also be Lorgar and Corax as a double whammy in 11th edition(dear gods I'll be in my 30s when that comes out) giving base CSM an actual Primarch, and the ravenguard their own codex
A small quibble with your allegory. Pure iron is softer than steel and will bend but will stay deformed. Steel is far better at flexing and returning to its original shape. Cast iron is the really brittle stuff that will shatter. Your allegory still works, the problem comes from the terminology.
When people say Dorn is boring, ask them to consider this: Everyone else ended up wacky. Every other primarch serves some incredible and strange culture. Their feats and conquest informed their views. They came out freewheeling larger than life paragons of concepts extrapolated to their logical ends. Among all his brethren, among demigods that represent the hope and salvation of mankind itself, Dorn is an outlier more peculiar than any of his brothers. He's just a quiet, hard working man. He does work he is asked to do, and holds no envy of titles. He answers directly and honestly when asked, even if the answer might hurt somebody else (sorry perty). He takes his job seriously and recognizes that pain and duress can cloud strong decisionmaking. So he makes a device that causes him intense pain - not because he is a masochist, but because he knows he has to train the influence of pain away just as he would rage or envy. So it hurts, but does no lasting damage. Dorn is incredible because he is the demigod that reflects man better than any of his brothers - not notable for some uncanny trait or talent - instead notable for showing how far you can go, even amongst legendary peers, by committing to the basic trait available to almost all of us: willpower. That's not boring, that's the most metal superpower you can have.
Tbh i really would like to see where the Story of 40K would have gone if Big E wasnt a Fucking Bad Father for All of His Sons... Imagine the Fists and the Iron Warriors working togehter...
I disagree on a few points. Dorn was "never broken" of course, he just lost a hand and nearly got his entire legion killed in the Iron Cage because he thought he knew better. He would have done his boys in if not for Gulliman bailing them out. Perturabo fell to his insecurities at first which led him decimating his world and joining the Heresy but he gained his confidence during the Heresy at the cost of his humanity and he became his own person, no longer caring about what others think. The turning point for Bo was roughing up Fulgrim and taking full command. From there he became a proper, competent and successful leader who only left Terra because his brothers were insane and he had enough. Dorn was prideful and as he was reaffirmed by everyone around him so also he became more and more stubborn and set in his ways. Just think how he treated Sigismund. The Iron Cage brought that castle of pride down hard. The path of these two are inversed, one gained his pride and confidence through adversity whilst the other built his false pride upon the praises of others and in turn had it crashing down in a rude wakeup call. When Dorn returns I suspect he'll be just as blunt and stoic, I mean that's his character, but he'll be a lot humbler. No one walks away from a defeat that almost has his entire legion killed because of his own hubris and pride. That probably left a mark other than the missing hand.
@@Th3Kingism It's hardly cope when they are pretty much the only competent Chaos legion. Also, I like the Imperial Fists and their successors the most when it comes to loyalists. I simply want to state that neither legions are/were perfect and it would be cool to see Dorn return and fix their issues. There are issues, I mean just look at the Black Templars! I enjoyed the return of the Lion and how he started addressing issues with the Dark Angels. The Fists could use the same treatment too. Gulliman's return also brought a similar story, he is trying to fix his boys too by trying to pull out that stick up their arse lol. In the grim darkness of the future it is refreshing to see positive trends, especially when we take into account that the Imperium is currently losing footing pretty hard on all sides.
@@Th3KingismDefinitely Iron Warrior cope. Everyone knows the Iron Cage was intentional on Dorn's part to have his legion emotionally prepared to be divided into chapters. This is how it is narrated in the books. Pain glove writ large. But for some reason IW fanboys point at this as both Dorn's arrogance and the IWs and Perturabo's supremacy of Dorn and the Fists,even when the narrative directly contradicts that interpretation.
You're a beaut Arthur. The passion you pour into your videos tells us something important about you. You care. I hope things in your life get better. I hope you find something that allows you to grow that passion again and extend it back to the other things you already love. Take care bud
They never broke, they fought until they died. The would have fought until they ALL died, if the Ultramarines hadn’t rescued them. Was it smart? No it was not.
@@ghostblack5024 Just because you do not retreat does not mean your efforts have been broken. Also it must be noted the extreme historical revisionism saying the bs lie that the Iron Cage was a “test” of the Imperial Fists.
@@InquisitorXariusif the iron cage broke the fists why are they still around? Must be because the iron crybabies can't even finish a siege, much less finish off a legion of space marines
@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle No its because Gulliman and the Ultramarines dug the Fists out of their grave. It should also be mentioned that, asides from the Death Guard, the Iron Warriors are the most intact traitor legion, whilst the Imperial Fists lost a grievious percentage of their legion at the Iron Cage.
My thoughts on Dorn for a long time were that he was kind of boring, Peter Turbo made him look like a punk, and he died to mooks like a bitch. Learning about his fight with Alpharius made me rethink him quite a bit but boy I hope he didn't actually get killed by generic unnamed chaos space marines. That would be such a disservice.
I personally like the idea of pertarobo coming back finally learning how to bend. It would actually be cool to see him and dorn meet and talk and Dorn realizing oh crap he’s better than me now.
I think also Rogal thought of himself as an artist, not in the Blood Angel music and sculpture way. Dorn was/is a builder his art was that of buildings and cities. I think his dream was to build a palace worthy of his father. This is why I think he should be the next loyalist primarch, Robutes art is logistics/politics, Lions art is the sword, when you have those pillars you have the foundations to build a new empire.
@@christophersmith8848 Dropsite massacre was also something of a W, if a little underhanded. It'd be pretty funny if Dorn came back actually, just to see how extremely, earth-shatteringly, unreasonably, fuck-ass mad Perturabo would get.
I suspect the phrase Why use Steel when Iron will suffice probably dates back before Andrew Carnegie’s development of mass producing Steel. Prior to the late 1800s, Steel was an expensive process producing small amounts and thus were specialized as tools and weapons. Iron (and we’re talking wrought iron, cast iron is too brittle) on the other hand was cheaper and more readily available in large quantities. In a modern context it would be Why wear Gucci work boots when regular work boots will suffice.
Dorn, imo, is a perfect example of someone being "smart" while being utterly stupid; I mean, you have to be extremely naive and silly to actually believe in Emperor, as a father no less, and Imperium. That is why I am convinced that Dorn might come back as raving fanatic and be less helpful to Gulli and Lion
To utilize and adapt a quote from the game of thrones books (replacing the baratheon brothers names with three primarchs) "Rogal, he was true steel. Perturabo is iron, hard and brittle, he'll break before he bends. Fulgrim, that one, he is copper, shiny but not worth much."
5:30. The best way to put it for Brogal maybe is knowing even if he's functionally immortal. He might not be around forever, and that problem he solved would be best handled if his solution could last for as long as it reasonably could before breaking. 9:38 I mean, like Rogal Dorn. If your grandfather was a welder or builder, maybe he meant it literally. But then your dad took it as some profound statement.
to me the organization of roboute, the singular focus of lionel and his tactical acumen, with rogals unyielding nature and ability to reinforce and build would make the imperium have a new age of expansion as opposed to the slow death it’s having right now
13:30 Na. The models sell. Chaos will be given whatever is required to remain threatening. But bringing back more primarchs, yes, it's stoking interest so not hard to imagine.
Real life blacksmith here, “Never use steel when iron will suffice” is an old smithing adage (I read something similar in a book published in the 1920s). Basically Steel is mechanically far superior for any application (except 1) but it’s far more expensive
That's actually really interesting to hear about Dorn's 'Grandfather'. Almost does make you think the Emperor could have done the scattering himself, for His sons to gain such insights.
late to the video, but the term “unyielding as stone” could be perceived in a way that compares him to being strong, yet malleable. Stone while very brittle, is also capable of being eroded and shaped by its environment, similarly to dorns long term acceptance of horaces betrayal.so even in that context, it still fits your message on dorn/perturabo as steel vs iron 13:14
Something that needs speaking is that Perturabo's arc over the course of the heresy is very much about him learning to bend. Olympia is the start, but he keeps coming face to face with situations where he has to reconcile that his way is not always going to work, Phal is the second big wakeup call after Olympia, and it results in him both altering elements of the legion, implementing both the Iron Circle and the Black Oculus, and eventually leads him to Tallarn, where his primary motive is to acquire new knowledge with which to improve the legion, and when called out by Horus and given the demand to stand down, he acquiesces rather than driving in his heels like he might've in an earlier incarnation. Slaves to Darkness really covers the notion that he is changed, that he is 'unbending' only so far as he will do whatever is necessary for the good of his legion, and the completion of his objectives, but he will reject the more insidious forms of change, and the impending doom that the traitor primarchs find themselves in the grasp of, now that the chaos gods are courting them. Secondly, in regards to 'Never use steel when Iron will suffice"; It's not universally true that Iron is more brittle than steel, what is perhaps more true is that the properties of Iron are more general, while steel are typically very specific in their properties. Some steels are very hard, with incredible compression strength, but very brittle and inelastic. These are used in tools like drills, whereas more flexible steels might be used in other applications, such as in the creation of springs. Iron is much more moderate in it's properties, the statement that it is brittle is something of a half truth, soft irons bend easily in fact. The aphorism is more accurately speaking to the notion that one should not use a specialized tool for a job which is not needed, IE using a long range precision guided missile when any old dumb bomb dropped from a high place would have sufficed. An opposite aphorism might be "There's no kill like overkill."
I think that quote about iron and steel is a bit off, or maybe your understanding of it. I'm sure I'm not the first one to point it out, though. I just didn't want to go fishing through the comments to find it. Saying that iron breaks when steel bends isn't true; pure iron is actually quite ductile (bendable). Steel is just carburized iron, but depending on the amount of carbon, it goes from still very easily shaped to brittle. When a steel alloy has too much carbon, it is called "cast iron" or "pig iron" which is very confusing since it has MORE carbon than steel. Iron + some carbon = steel Iron + too much carbon = cast iron. Cast iron and pig iron are known to be super brittle compared to most steels and plain, elemental iron is known to be softer.
14:17 Stone erodes, it does yield to time, but it does not break, canyons are formed by erosion. So, using when Dorn found out about the Heresy, he did not believe it at first, but with increasing evidence, that worldview that Horus would never betray the Imperium changed and eroded, a canyon formed in his beliefs and he had to change with it. Not the best metaphor, but still falls into the iron vs steel metaphor in that steel is more flexible than iron that with just snap. That being said, I think both Dorn and Perterabo are my favorite Primarchs, so there is that too.
"No" - Rogal Dorn
"YEEESSS!"
"The lemon is a mighty fruit."
- Rogal Dorn
If you didn't read this in super anchors voice, you are a liar and papa dorn is disappointed in you.
"Hello, Phallic Individual"
-Rogal Dorn
“Hello unuttered one”
- also Rogal Dorn
Rogal Dorn will be armed with the Emperor's lightning claw when he returns I assure you.
Hear me out; Dorn comes back as a dreadnought.
@@keil5239No he'll show up in a centurion of course and be read bedtime stories by the emperor
@@keil5239odd a lore decision it may be, it would make me smile to see Dorn come back in a Primarch version of the Custodes Telemon Heavy Dread. Would definitely let him give traitors an imperial fisting.
@@muffincutting6020 Indeed that is why they are called the Imperial Fist cuz they..you know...Lubed or not lubed it was up to Rogal
Yeah sure they will release a character model for the banana boys they replaced with black templar….fists don‘t sell besides HH …
We can't forget about the time he held off the the god of blood and war by talking about economics.
Just mentioning linear regression sends Khorne into palpitations.
That’s totally a TTS thing
@@akumaking1End and the Death Vol II, Dorn is lost is the Vengeful Spirit with Khorne tempting him constantly. Dorn holds him off by talking about the history of war and economic impact and bores him to his ultimate escape
@@keil5239 I know. But it reads like something GW stole from TTS.
@@akumaking1 I agree gw probably stole it but I like it none the less.
Peter turbo: breaks when his sister calls him out for being a btch
Dorn: bends and adapts with his steel resolve.
Iron is more flexible than steel
Basically
Percurabo: breaks when his sister calls him a bitch
Rogal Dorn: learns, adapts, overcomes, and calls her a bitch right back
Iron Cage
Dorn: Literally sacrifices 99% of his legion in the Iron Cage after putting on the ouchy-glove.
Perturabo: Lol, lmao even.
Dorn nearly murdered a man than accept that Horus had turn traitor
Dorn is the epitome of the "indomitable human spirit" meme
As an Exorcists fan boy? I agree 100%
Nah, he is not a "free spirit" for that shit.
@@JRBDWD Free spirit has nothing to do with indomitable. Its the ability to push forward Always.
I mean Dorn didn't really go missing Peter Turbo just challenged him to a game of dawn of war... they are still on their first match... 9000 years later
That makes a disturbing amount of sense.
First minute in, and I see my oldest IF artwork slowly sliding before my eyes 😅 Old as it is, love that it still shows up here and there!
The one with the thunder hammer?
Dang, that's pretty neat...
Dorn is definitely the kind of dude who 100% all his quests in game 😂
No, just the main quests. The Dark Brotherhood is not pertinent to the fate of Tamriel.
Not the Skyrim chapter, sure as shit.@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755
@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755 I would say killing the Emperor (potentially, possibly by his own design) is pretty pertinent. The Thieves Guild and the Companions though...
Your dad had cool metaphors, my dad said “pull my finger”
Flatulence ensued
Mine said “get me another beer”
'Hold the light straight moron"
Mine just rambles about the eternal darkness and the cataclysmic downfall of the universe
Mine works hard, drinks lots and has an insufferably blatant bias to his in-touch daughter.
It’s early in the video, so forgive me if you mention it, but Baldemort’s three parter on Rogal Dorn and “The Longest Second” is absolutely masterful storytelling.
For Rogal.
I always wanted to like Rogal Dorn but never could until I heard the audio about him rejecting Khorn for hundreds of years. That was very well written and gave a deeper insight into his character that I had never gotten before.
“I am fortifying this position”-Rogal Dorn
Really interesting analysis of Dorn being more flexible than I thought, and Perturabo is less than I thought! Really well stated!
Yeah Rogal Dorn and his legion are a lot more adaptable than the iron warriors combat style and perturabos command style. The Iron Warriors kind of force people into their preferred way of fighting rather than adapting their own tactics to deal with how the enemies fight. They want to force grinding attrition.
Makes sense really. He understood that without his legion, Terra would be destroyed. He was right yet again after his disappearance if not for the Last Wall. He was tasked as its defender, and so when he was presented with only two unacceptable options, he chose neither. He could simply comply with Roberta Girlyman which would inevitably destroy Terra one way or another. Or he could war with Girlyman, and destroy it right here and now; and so he bent. Thus Terra still stands.
Royal Dorn keeping and using his grandfathers cloak as a safety blanket is always just so damn heart warming. Like just a great fact to know about the guy.
steel bends, iron breaks is now my new favorite quotes
Its not very true, steel is heavier and more brittle than pure iron, which is much softer and more flexible
@@cplhotpocketsexactly steel has carbon crystals in its molecular lattice which are far more likely to snap than iron is
It’s actually the opposite, both physically and ideologically. Perturabo never “breaks” only bends. Dorn stayed true to his ideals and loyalties but fucking died in the process
Doesn't steel have carbon that makes it harder?
My man has had a catastrophic skill issue and he imparted it to anyone watching lol
This saying only makes sense if you're talking about *pig* iron, which is an iron-carbon alloy like steel, but with much more carbon in it.
I actually like that. "Do not use steel when iron will suffice". I'm getting older, reaching that dreaded 4-0 in a couple years, and I can see the wisdom in that. You're right, on the surface it's "work smarter, not harder", "don't overcomplicate the solution". But I don't think it means that. You're right that Rogal had more steel in him than iron, he was flexible in his thinking and tactics where they called for it. But he had an iron core to him, to his beliefs. Iron may not bend, and it will appear brittle. But make it right, solid, and hold firm to yourself. And the world can wreck itself trying to break you.
Edit: Or i'm just talking out my ass. Anyways, good stuff Maynard.
Dorn says "No"
Peter Turbo says "Never"
one can change without being wrong
Lets be honest, we all got a warm toasty feeling when Arthur mentioned Kor Phaeron going feet first into a wood chipper. Ahhhhhhh.....like slipping into a warm bath.
"That is because the Black Templars are completley fucking insane" Dorn on his sons.
Kitten: Doooorn! What are you doing?!
Dorn: I am fortifying this position.
Kitten: WHY?!?
Dorn:The best offence is a good defence.
Kitten: Aw, for Terra's sake...
The moment I saw the title, my brain went “Iron breaks, steel bends” and I knew for a fact that the Dorn video would actually be about Perturabo.
In short Dorn will do what he needs to in creative fashion.
”I’d be hard pressed to find anyone who dislikes Dorn”
Me: Hydra Dominatus…..
Same (I don't find him interesting)
Hydra Dominatus
Honestly, the three faction lovers who hate dorn the most are def Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Raven Guard.
Hydra dominatus brother
@@tyrantofcans465 Why raven guard?
I recently finished Perturabo's primarch novel "The Hammer of Olympia" and knew this is where you were going with this video when I saw the title. Spoilers ahead: To my mind, the central metaphor of Perty's novel revolves around the "Iron within. Iron without" motto of the IVth Legion. Barabas Dantioch is defeated when the hrud rust away his iron without. For Perturabo, however, there is a sentence in Chapter Two which foreshadows his fate: "Poorly forged iron might shatter when hit by a precise blow." The rebellion of Olympia is the blow that shatters Perturabo's iron within. As someone who sees a lot of himself in Perturabo, I sometimes wonder if being a Dorn isn't preferable.
What makes some people call Dorn boring is the same reasons he is compelling as a character.
Picture the word collapsing around you your facing unstoppable tides of unknown horror that is seemingly unstoppable most people in such a situation would panic mentally break down weep in Terror then you see a man as calm as ice a will of iron he is your rock the only the only who can lead you through the darkness withstand the pressure and either guide you through it or make the last moments manageable that is Rogal Dorn Stone incarnate the will to stare into the dark uncaring void and never blink
Iron will bend but stone is indomitable it can weather any hit take any kind of punishment it may chip away it may break but only in the end when it breaks it’s be issue the force against it out in all its strength to crack it open
The more serious the character, the more meme potential he has.
Indomitability and stoicism do not engage with conflict very much. Done just endures rather than raging against his enemies.
People think that’s boring because it isn’t a spectacle like Russ or Magnus or even the Lion would make of a situation.
Another extremely interesting example of how Dorn was able to pivot and adapt was when he was in the midst of an argument with Alpharius (or Omegon) in the aftermath of a compliance campaign. When they seem at an impasse in terms of "open warfare" vs "subterfuge" during the argument, Dorn actually pivots the conversation and criticizes the Alpha Legion's black ops approach during the campaign via criteria that Alpharius himself would value.
Honestly if Dorn comes back I think they would have to really balance out the setting again. I mean the imperium has:
Blueberry Boy to do the logistics/ planning
Mr. Lion for the attack
Lord ADornable for the defense
It's why I like the idea of some of the more independently minded Primarchs, who are more loyal to big E than the Imperium deciding that it's too far gone and needs to be fought against. Say Corax, The Khan or Russ
Dorn and Girlyman could be at each other's throats. They were before.
@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755 But it's also been ten THOUSAND years since then, time in which both of the Primarchs have grown and changed their worldviews.
They could probably set aside past differences nowadays, especially since Guilliman is a LOT less strict about "muh codex" these days than he was right after the Heresy, seeing how much the Codex actually crippled the Imperium and the Astartes.
@@Eye_Of_Odin978 They could also just not. Wait until Dorn finds out the Last Wall turned out to be necessary thus proving Girlyman and his codex really was the doom of the imperium. Girlyman is going to have to admit breaking the legions was a colossal mistake and do a U turn, because I don't see any way Dorn can rationalise that playing along with the Codex is the best course of action. Either there's some kind of friction or they kiss and make up. One of these is narratively more exciting than the other.
I loved this dude. He defeated Khorne by reading the Geneva convention. He defeated a chao's God ideology
People always talking about how if Dorn returns he should have the Emperor’s Claw. I disagree, the claw is meant more for someone who is precise and quick. Dorn is a tool a weapon, he should have the Emperor’s Bolter.
I'd like that, but honestly he doesn't need any weapon from the emporer because he is his greatest weapon. After 10k years it is Dorns sons alone who still carry out the emperor's great crusade.
Ok, ive leeched off of your videos long enough. Had to become a full member so i can help support ya
Stuff like this is why I love Dorn. He’s not a complex character, but his personality and philosophy are each unique and well written.
It’s also why I think it’s dumb people just say “Perty is great Dorn sucks”. Both are good, and as this video states they exist as two sides of the same coin. The only difference is that Dorn understands the values in making mistakes and learning. Perturabo doomed himself constantly trying to avoid making mistakes altogether.
My favorite part is when he said “I’m Rogal Dorn” and then he dorned all over the place
"Corgis are funny, they have small legs"
- Rogal Dorn
Dorn and perty are so similar except for the one quality that perturabo was never able to cultivate: humility. Everything perty does is built around the idea that th previous thing being right and unquestioning. The idea of admiting he was wrong or possibly mistaken would break any sense of identity and self esteem that he built up. Meanwhile dorn is more then able to admit he was wrong, and learn as a person from it.
Also, calling it now: Dorn will be coming back as a dreadnaught to counter perty being a giant tank daemon primarch.
Dude I never thought of it like that. That would be sick and metal as F
The strongest obliterator vs the toughest dreadnaught
Rogal is everything Perturabo COULD have been, had the circumstances been different. The Emperor should have given Pert more autonomy and creative initiatives. Say what you will about Perturabo, he was a genius. Emps utilized him improperly imo.
I find him to be to be quite an interesting character, I really enjoyed him in the end and death, and while he doesn't blow your socks off with the dynamism of his unpredictable personality, I always found his autistic stolidness even in the most extreme circumstances endearing.
Rogal's struggle in the End and the Death helped me recontextualize my experience with my internal struggles - I will makes plans, one will work, I will break free.
Mental fortitude is key in this world of suffering and strife we find ourselves in, friend.
That is also what makes ME like Rogal as much as I do. It's not his strength of muscle but his strength of WILL that inspires me to march on through every indignity and hardship life lays in my path.
You’ve verbalised what I could not. Great character study.
Given where Abbadon and Vashtorr went, I think Jaghatai is more likely to return next.
It's difficult for me to articulate why Dorn became my favorite Primarch. This was before the SoT and the Khan and Sanguinius arrived with their Legions but there was this small window of time right after the Dropsite Massacre where RD and the 7th truly believed that they were the last men standing between the Imperium and Horus and I thought that there was something incredibly endearing about that. The last loyal men vs all the darkness of the galaxy. Very noblebright. The very reason space marines are so cool.
I think an example of Perturabo's inability to bend when needing to is his isssues with communication. He was used to not expressing his needs and choosing to act at the whims of what was needed by those who were meant to support him (with the exception of his sister). He never complained about what he wanted to do in life and just got the job done, and that didn't change when the Emperor of Mankind found and recruited him. He was able to communicate what he wanted to do rather than just go about what his father commanded, but he didn't. Perturabo just did what he was used to and did whatever job he was given without any complaint, until, like Iron, he was eventually broken by this the burden he put on his back to carry.
Remember kids, if someone tells you Dorn and Girlyman are boring, they haven't read the books.
If one compares Dorn and perturabo to tools, Dorn is a steel blade cutting to the heart of the matter, enough strength to bend and enough hardness to stay true.
Perty is a cast iron frying pan, heavy and extremely hard but also brittle in equal measure. He is also kind of a blunt instrument.
Well that Iron Cast Pan almost Broke that Steel blade Twice..
@@tidehunterzamora9315 And shattered itself REPEATEDLY, including genociding his home planet and crying when his sister calling him out.
Dude was fragile.
I love Rogal Dorn and I would love to see him return to the setting and be given something more to do than protect Terra.
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Alpharius not liking Dorn because he never lies is so freaking funny
I love these videos, man. Can't wait for Angron and Magnus.
The Steel and Iron analogue reminds of the one Donal Noye says to John Snow in ASOIAF
"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."
I loved the video. i also love dorn and the fists in HH. the legion's character/flavor isn't as strong as "viking werewolves" or "vampire angels", so I thought Dorn and the fists were boring for a long time until I read about them in heresy novels. Now they're my main heresy army.
He is my favorite primarch for those reasons and for his changing and ultimately sobering perspective as the Heresy goes on. When it kicks off, Dorn has to come to terms with the reality of his art that is the Imperial Palace. Ultimately it must be torn down to serve in a war for survival that he and his brothers ultimately brought upon countless human and xenos empires alike. Its also just him suffering through having to be the stoic face of defiance against Horus's onslaught and constantly trying to deal with the stress and mental fatigue of an entire Imperium looking to him in their most dire hour. And in what he believe to be his failure after Emps is thrown on the golden thrown, his mental break and where that leads him in the end just makes him one of the most fascinating primarchs to read about in my opinion.
so yeah, fuck the iron warriors.
From a sales perspective, I think Leman will be the next Loyal Primarch to return. Mainly because there is currently only 1 "Primarch level" Character per codex right now. Abaddon being that for the main Chaos Marine codex. When Fulgrim returns, it will be in a whole new Emperors children codex that we know is coming.
So if Dorn is next, they'd have to create a whole "Sons of Dorn" Codex including Imperial/Crimson Fists, Black Templars and others. Which would be cool, but I think less likely than just giving the Space Wolf codex its Primarch level Character first
Honestly thats probably what will happen, although it could also be Lorgar and Corax as a double whammy in 11th edition(dear gods I'll be in my 30s when that comes out) giving base CSM an actual Primarch, and the ravenguard their own codex
Love your stuff man, its nice to see how fast you've grown within a year
A small quibble with your allegory. Pure iron is softer than steel and will bend but will stay deformed. Steel is far better at flexing and returning to its original shape. Cast iron is the really brittle stuff that will shatter. Your allegory still works, the problem comes from the terminology.
If Dorn returns , i can see Perturabo rejoining the setting out of spite
(Would be great if they confirmed the Perty-Dreadnaught theory)
Dorns coming back as a Black Templar. It's too good. It has to be what's happening
When people say Dorn is boring, ask them to consider this:
Everyone else ended up wacky. Every other primarch serves some incredible and strange culture. Their feats and conquest informed their views. They came out freewheeling larger than life paragons of concepts extrapolated to their logical ends.
Among all his brethren, among demigods that represent the hope and salvation of mankind itself, Dorn is an outlier more peculiar than any of his brothers. He's just a quiet, hard working man. He does work he is asked to do, and holds no envy of titles. He answers directly and honestly when asked, even if the answer might hurt somebody else (sorry perty). He takes his job seriously and recognizes that pain and duress can cloud strong decisionmaking. So he makes a device that causes him intense pain - not because he is a masochist, but because he knows he has to train the influence of pain away just as he would rage or envy. So it hurts, but does no lasting damage.
Dorn is incredible because he is the demigod that reflects man better than any of his brothers - not notable for some uncanny trait or talent - instead notable for showing how far you can go, even amongst legendary peers, by committing to the basic trait available to almost all of us: willpower. That's not boring, that's the most metal superpower you can have.
Really enjoyed the character evolution of Rogal in the Siege of Terra and the End and the Death series. So cool.
“ I am Rogal Dorn, defiant and unyielding”
Tbh i really would like to see where the Story of 40K would have gone if Big E wasnt a Fucking Bad Father for All of His Sons... Imagine the Fists and the Iron Warriors working togehter...
I disagree on a few points.
Dorn was "never broken" of course, he just lost a hand and nearly got his entire legion killed in the Iron Cage because he thought he knew better. He would have done his boys in if not for Gulliman bailing them out.
Perturabo fell to his insecurities at first which led him decimating his world and joining the Heresy but he gained his confidence during the Heresy at the cost of his humanity and he became his own person, no longer caring about what others think. The turning point for Bo was roughing up Fulgrim and taking full command. From there he became a proper, competent and successful leader who only left Terra because his brothers were insane and he had enough.
Dorn was prideful and as he was reaffirmed by everyone around him so also he became more and more stubborn and set in his ways. Just think how he treated Sigismund. The Iron Cage brought that castle of pride down hard.
The path of these two are inversed, one gained his pride and confidence through adversity whilst the other built his false pride upon the praises of others and in turn had it crashing down in a rude wakeup call.
When Dorn returns I suspect he'll be just as blunt and stoic, I mean that's his character, but he'll be a lot humbler. No one walks away from a defeat that almost has his entire legion killed because of his own hubris and pride. That probably left a mark other than the missing hand.
Sounds like Iron Warrior cope
@@Th3Kingism It's hardly cope when they are pretty much the only competent Chaos legion. Also, I like the Imperial Fists and their successors the most when it comes to loyalists. I simply want to state that neither legions are/were perfect and it would be cool to see Dorn return and fix their issues. There are issues, I mean just look at the Black Templars!
I enjoyed the return of the Lion and how he started addressing issues with the Dark Angels. The Fists could use the same treatment too. Gulliman's return also brought a similar story, he is trying to fix his boys too by trying to pull out that stick up their arse lol.
In the grim darkness of the future it is refreshing to see positive trends, especially when we take into account that the Imperium is currently losing footing pretty hard on all sides.
@@Th3KingismDefinitely Iron Warrior cope. Everyone knows the Iron Cage was intentional on Dorn's part to have his legion emotionally prepared to be divided into chapters. This is how it is narrated in the books. Pain glove writ large. But for some reason IW fanboys point at this as both Dorn's arrogance and the IWs and Perturabo's supremacy of Dorn and the Fists,even when the narrative directly contradicts that interpretation.
You're a beaut Arthur. The passion you pour into your videos tells us something important about you. You care. I hope things in your life get better. I hope you find something that allows you to grow that passion again and extend it back to the other things you already love. Take care bud
starting to love this channel.
Dorn is, and always will be my favorite primarch.
"I'm reinstalling the palace. Tell me when Corvus is here, i require his infiltration expertise"
“Never broken” - The Iron Cage begs to differ
They never broke, they fought until they died. The would have fought until they ALL died, if the Ultramarines hadn’t rescued them. Was it smart? No it was not.
@@ghostblack5024 Just because you do not retreat does not mean your efforts have been broken. Also it must be noted the extreme historical revisionism saying the bs lie that the Iron Cage was a “test” of the Imperial Fists.
And they ironlosers failed to wipe out the fist’s cope. Harder.
@@InquisitorXariusif the iron cage broke the fists why are they still around? Must be because the iron crybabies can't even finish a siege, much less finish off a legion of space marines
@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle No its because Gulliman and the Ultramarines dug the Fists out of their grave. It should also be mentioned that, asides from the Death Guard, the Iron Warriors are the most intact traitor legion, whilst the Imperial Fists lost a grievious percentage of their legion at the Iron Cage.
Dorm seems to understand sunk time whereas Peter Turbo would get mad he wasted so much time and be petty.
For Dorn, forever.
My thoughts on Dorn for a long time were that he was kind of boring, Peter Turbo made him look like a punk, and he died to mooks like a bitch. Learning about his fight with Alpharius made me rethink him quite a bit but boy I hope he didn't actually get killed by generic unnamed chaos space marines. That would be such a disservice.
Chaos didn't even try to tempt Dorn. He is anti-chaos incarnate.
I personally like the idea of pertarobo coming back finally learning how to bend. It would actually be cool to see him and dorn meet and talk and Dorn realizing oh crap he’s better than me now.
"far off planet in another galaxy" 40k only wishes it could get out of its galaxy
Don't forget, Dorn offered the Phalanx to the Emporer!
I think also Rogal thought of himself as an artist, not in the Blood Angel music and sculpture way. Dorn was/is a builder his art was that of buildings and cities. I think his dream was to build a palace worthy of his father.
This is why I think he should be the next loyalist primarch, Robutes art is logistics/politics, Lions art is the sword, when you have those pillars you have the foundations to build a new empire.
Hey Fist! Ask your dad about the Iron cage, Oh wait you cant! Because he's DEAD!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHA PERTURABO GANG 4 LYFE
Iron Warriors talking about the only W they took in 10,000 years
@@christophersmith8848 Dropsite massacre was also something of a W, if a little underhanded. It'd be pretty funny if Dorn came back actually, just to see how extremely, earth-shatteringly, unreasonably, fuck-ass mad Perturabo would get.
Dorn was not just born, he was built.
I suspect the phrase Why use Steel when Iron will suffice probably dates back before Andrew Carnegie’s development of mass producing Steel. Prior to the late 1800s, Steel was an expensive process producing small amounts and thus were specialized as tools and weapons. Iron (and we’re talking wrought iron, cast iron is too brittle) on the other hand was cheaper and more readily available in large quantities.
In a modern context it would be Why wear Gucci work boots when regular work boots will suffice.
Dorn, imo, is a perfect example of someone being "smart" while being utterly stupid; I mean, you have to be extremely naive and silly to actually believe in Emperor, as a father no less, and Imperium. That is why I am convinced that Dorn might come back as raving fanatic and be less helpful to Gulli and Lion
if dorn comes back then moments later pertarabo will emerge from the eye of terror and just yell "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORN!"
To utilize and adapt a quote from the game of thrones books (replacing the baratheon brothers names with three primarchs)
"Rogal, he was true steel. Perturabo is iron, hard and brittle, he'll break before he bends. Fulgrim, that one, he is copper, shiny but not worth much."
WE HOLDIN THE PALACE WITH THIS ONE‼️
🏰🍋🏰
WE TRAPPIN' TRAITORS UNDER QUICKRETE WITH THIS ONE!
(Those Chaos Marines are still buried under the Palace)
Steel within. Steel without.
Oh, boy! I get to hear about ROGAL DORN'S COLOSSAL CHAINBLADE.
Also, Nightlords and their primarch still stinky and bad.
5:30. The best way to put it for Brogal maybe is knowing even if he's functionally immortal. He might not be around forever, and that problem he solved would be best handled if his solution could last for as long as it reasonably could before breaking.
9:38 I mean, like Rogal Dorn. If your grandfather was a welder or builder, maybe he meant it literally.
But then your dad took it as some profound statement.
to me the organization of roboute, the singular focus of lionel and his tactical acumen, with rogals unyielding nature and ability to reinforce and build would make the imperium have a new age of expansion as opposed to the slow death it’s having right now
13:30 Na. The models sell. Chaos will be given whatever is required to remain threatening. But bringing back more primarchs, yes, it's stoking interest so not hard to imagine.
You didnt talk about how he never lies, no matter what
"You carry the Emperor's will as your torch. With it, destroy the shadows."
- Verses of Sigismund, Book CIV, Verse 1
Rogal Dorn is one of my favorite Primarchs. He's in that toss-up jumbled mess I call a 'top 4' around Jaghatai, Corvus, Guilliman, and himself.
Hey Arthur, in case you’re wondering, you brought up the kapiculu continuum on Astartes Anonymous.
Real life blacksmith here, “Never use steel when iron will suffice” is an old smithing adage (I read something similar in a book published in the 1920s). Basically Steel is mechanically far superior for any application (except 1) but it’s far more expensive
That's actually really interesting to hear about Dorn's 'Grandfather'. Almost does make you think the Emperor could have done the scattering himself, for His sons to gain such insights.
late to the video, but the term “unyielding as stone” could be perceived in a way that compares him to being strong, yet malleable. Stone while very brittle, is also capable of being eroded and shaped by its environment, similarly to dorns long term acceptance of horaces betrayal.so even in that context, it still fits your message on dorn/perturabo as steel vs iron 13:14
Something that needs speaking is that Perturabo's arc over the course of the heresy is very much about him learning to bend. Olympia is the start, but he keeps coming face to face with situations where he has to reconcile that his way is not always going to work, Phal is the second big wakeup call after Olympia, and it results in him both altering elements of the legion, implementing both the Iron Circle and the Black Oculus, and eventually leads him to Tallarn, where his primary motive is to acquire new knowledge with which to improve the legion, and when called out by Horus and given the demand to stand down, he acquiesces rather than driving in his heels like he might've in an earlier incarnation. Slaves to Darkness really covers the notion that he is changed, that he is 'unbending' only so far as he will do whatever is necessary for the good of his legion, and the completion of his objectives, but he will reject the more insidious forms of change, and the impending doom that the traitor primarchs find themselves in the grasp of, now that the chaos gods are courting them.
Secondly, in regards to 'Never use steel when Iron will suffice"; It's not universally true that Iron is more brittle than steel, what is perhaps more true is that the properties of Iron are more general, while steel are typically very specific in their properties. Some steels are very hard, with incredible compression strength, but very brittle and inelastic. These are used in tools like drills, whereas more flexible steels might be used in other applications, such as in the creation of springs. Iron is much more moderate in it's properties, the statement that it is brittle is something of a half truth, soft irons bend easily in fact. The aphorism is more accurately speaking to the notion that one should not use a specialized tool for a job which is not needed, IE using a long range precision guided missile when any old dumb bomb dropped from a high place would have sufficed. An opposite aphorism might be "There's no kill like overkill."
I think that quote about iron and steel is a bit off, or maybe your understanding of it. I'm sure I'm not the first one to point it out, though. I just didn't want to go fishing through the comments to find it.
Saying that iron breaks when steel bends isn't true; pure iron is actually quite ductile (bendable). Steel is just carburized iron, but depending on the amount of carbon, it goes from still very easily shaped to brittle. When a steel alloy has too much carbon, it is called "cast iron" or "pig iron" which is very confusing since it has MORE carbon than steel.
Iron + some carbon = steel
Iron + too much carbon = cast iron.
Cast iron and pig iron are known to be super brittle compared to most steels and plain, elemental iron is known to be softer.
Dorn is so honest it has essentially made him incorruptible.
I'm both an Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors fan
It's funny when they fight.
bro that title and thumbnail go hard as fuck
5:00 - thank you. That. Felt good :)
"No." - Dorn.
14:17 Stone erodes, it does yield to time, but it does not break, canyons are formed by erosion. So, using when Dorn found out about the Heresy, he did not believe it at first, but with increasing evidence, that worldview that Horus would never betray the Imperium changed and eroded, a canyon formed in his beliefs and he had to change with it. Not the best metaphor, but still falls into the iron vs steel metaphor in that steel is more flexible than iron that with just snap. That being said, I think both Dorn and Perterabo are my favorite Primarchs, so there is that too.
ROGAL DORN MA FUCKIN BOYYYYYYYYYYYYYY nah but i relate with dorn a lot his endless loyalty and absolute intolerance for bullshit from his brothers
13:03 simple. Direct. Inspiring. Perfect.