300Tdi timing cover refit and run off belt issues
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- / britrest
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Your support is appreciated!
If you have a Defender/Tdi problem and do not know how to fix it, drop me a line! Maybe I can help!
britrest@britrest.com
In manufacturing there's a word , PIG , it means production is God, the reason big engine manufacturer's don't highly tune engines is tolerance' s on machining would have to be very tight which in a low cost high volume environment is not possible. Ever journal, bearing , mounting face , shaft ect. Has parameters and then some don't tell anyone parameters lol.
Keep up the good work 👍👍👍
That’s why I’m thinking of putting a plug, maybe a better description would be an inspection plug. Every oil change pull out the plug and dip your finger in. No oil good. Grab a light and look at the crank gear...belt not running to the front or back? Good.
I know I'm very late to this party. But it looks to me as if there is an end float problem in the inj pump shaft, the axial movement will be caused by the pump element rollers reacting against the wave plate within the pump. Put your DTI against the end of the shaft and rotate the engine, I reckon you'll get four movement cycles per revolution. Do a pump piston stroke check. I guess by now you'll know the cause and have the problem remedied.
I had the same problem a month ago after the rebuild, one belt snapped after the test drive. The problem was the same the belt keeping moving forward. We found out if you put a really thin shim just be hide the polly, the belt will not move forward anymore.
I put a shim behind the outermost bolt on the 3 bolt pump flange - seems to be OK - I have done this in the past with good results
Britannica Restorations Ltd wouldn’t that actually push the pulley outward? I know what you are doing is working, but I don’t understand why. Can you do a video on just shimming it?
It seems like if you loosen the three bolts from the IP and then loosen the two bolts on the steel bracket on the back of the IP, then try shimming in a way that that when you tighten the grew IP bolts to the case it would pull the timing case backward and then tilt the gear/pulley back a bit.
Mike there is a retro fit kit for the belt tensioner .they use a washer and a bolt to keep the tensioner square to the timing cover. What it does is keep the tensioner pulls from moving side ways which in turn doesn’t allow the belt to walk out or in thus keeping it from shredding on the crank pulls or the back of the timing cover. Land Rover went away from the Allan head bolt and washer that goes into the belt tension pulls. I use this on all timing belts I do and they don’t seem to have any shredding problems.
Have you go the part numbers please?
Mike
Britannica Restorations Ltd
Hi mike I’ll have a look in the shop for the part number of the kit the bolt is SS11201E the washer is. ERR900. The rover manual says it was used on the later model 300. It keeps the tension bearing square. I believe it was used on the early models as well and they found problems with the tension bearing twisting and allowing the belt to walk out and break.
@@BritannicaRestorations SS110201E is the flanged bolt (M10 x 20), and ERR900 is the injector pump washer. They also appear to have fitted an M10 flanged nut (FN110046).
I emailed you a video about what I discovered with my injection pump mounting bracket and I used a dial caliper to measure the different when tight and loose.
Instablaster.
Hi Mike, I love your videos, always had a series 2a petrol, now enjoying your work on the diesels. I think your shim idea was great, can you add another one? How about putting a straight edge across the front face of two large top pulleys and check if the pump pulley is aligned flat with the other pulley. It'd only take a misalignment of a thou to cause problems I think.
I am working on something at the moment - video soon on my findings!
Yes there is still a deflect in the casing
What about a adjuster in triangle plate in front of injection pump
Been following this series... Quite interesting... Regarding things made in the UK... Not much is made there anymore... The just priced themselves out of the market and all the unions and strikes when they had motor manufacturing probably scared a lot of manufacturers away... Its easier to sit on the dole anyway so to get them to work is another thing "eh"
I agree
Regarding that belt running to one side... Putting in a "Shoe" is masking the problem... I think that cover is either flexing or the pump pulley is warped... Very rarely the belts are out of true but it does happen.... Try turning the belt around and if it still does the same then you know for sure.... My hunch is pump pulley.... Or it could be worn due to previous belt miss alignment...
The cover has been machined and checked - the pulley has had a DTI on it to check run out - no problem
I am thinking it is the pump flange moving the belt forwards on the firing stroke
Seems to be a very common issue with the covers bending
Belt is at 11 Nm as recommend
It takes so little pressure to put back in line - and these belts never move to the back - always the front
Hope you get it sorted.... Thanx for the vids BTW
@@BritannicaRestorations
Is the pump bearing replaceable by the skilled home mechanic? or is this a totally different ball game that only a rebuild shop could do?
I have also seen belt cam and pump pulley teeth bent because they are made out of stamped steel
maybe there is a continuation of this video? I can't find it anywhere. Please provide a link Thank you.
Try putting a straight edge across our two pulleys and make sure they are parallel.
The pump bearing is shot - probably overtightened belts in the past
Change the camshaft and injector pump pulleys this happens on vw when the pulleys are worn out
Can you make a spacer kit?
Can you design a rear bracket that bolts to the back of the injection pump that has an adjuster that you can tighten? Then it would pull the housing in the right place and you can run the engine while adjusting it. You stop adjusting when the belt runs right center of the crank sprocket.
Also in the kit would be an injection pump sprocket tool or bar. You screw it on like you me long bar you used so that we can test the deflection of the the fuel pump bearing for diagnosis. (That way we don’t mess with the timing housing if the pump bearing is bad, thus making a problem worse.)
I’d try it, but I don’t have the time and the parts aren’t easy to come by in Brazil.
I think we went through this in the comments - I put a recon pump on and no more problems
Ok. I’ll check into a new pump...
I cant see if you have fitted the injector pump rear mount bracket in your video. Just the added pressure of the injector pump "firing" is sometimes enough to try and pull the pump forward/twist the aly casting. If you refit the rear pump mount that should stop a lot of the flex. A "slipper" will overheat the edge of the belt and the rubber will start to melt leading to failure. Zues gear sets work great. I have fitted several kits. Must use good loctite on all nuts and bolts! If the "play" in the pump is significant then a "thrust button" against the injector pump pulley might be more effective. How much Play is supposed to be in the injector pump? Maybe it is time for a pump overhaul???
Yes the latest type of bracket is on with the sliding bushes
I am working on something very interesting right now on alignment
I think Zeus no longer make the gear kits - I cannot find any reference to them any more
Hi Mike. I would not put kind of a slipper behind the cover. in Germany we say that this is a Polish solution. You should really tried to find out what the problem is.
I agree - but what is the problem and how much is is going to cost?
Pump rebuild here is C$1600!
Cheaper to buy a new one
Cover is about C$600
I do not think the customer will pay
That's one thing that concerns me about swapping my 2.5 VM to 300 TDI is the good old gears on the VM and slight power loss.
Unfortunately you trade good timing gears for head gasket problems comparing VM and 300tdi.
@@spitfiremk1uko be fair a lot of the head gasket problems were down to not retighten the old style head gasket, I know it was with mine but having fitted the new MLS metal gasket no more problems, I have just under 300000 miles on my 2.5. The reasons for fitting the 300 tdi is simply cost and availability of parts.
@@roversteve53 I carried out several factory kit conversions from VM to 200tdi back in the day. The problem was always overheating resulting in destroyed heads which was a cooling system problem identified as a steam trap issue by the factory. Landrover changed heads, head gaskets, then went to 2.5 but the problem persisted to the point customers paid over 6000 pounds back in the early 90s to have the engines removed and converted with a new 200 tdi. So my experience has never included a reliable VM engine set up in a range rover classic. I like what I hear about the MLS style gaskets and I am looking to use one on a series Landy if I can find them for sale. A company in Devon UK used to offer a timing gear conversion Zeus Engineering however They no longer advertise these kits and were very expensive anyway. But they were reliable but noisy.
If it is doing it 4 times per pump pulley revolution have you tried fitting the dti gauge adaptor on the back of the pump (same as you would do when measuring pump lift) to see if the jump on the front pulley occurs at the same lift heights on the back? If it does then it is probably caused by the cam rollers in the pump pushing the pump main shaft in/out? That said I don't know if that pulley movement is there on a 'normal' pump so its all a bit theoretical
It's funny, but you never seem to measure these things on new pumps, so you have nothing to work on as a datum
Hi Mike, Wonder if it’s possible to use something like laser/mirror wheel alignment to check all shafts are running parallel. That would identify if pump not running parallel to cam & camshaft. Otherwise maybe the new crank pulley is slightly too shallow and slightly behind line of pump & cam. Maybe possible to measure off straight edge across timing case. Does a thicker o ring bring the crank pulley forward?
I am working on something at the moment video soon on my findings!
One or more of those five pulleys are not running true or are tapered due to wear. Maybe if the belt is off and you put the dti on each in turn the culprit can be identified.
It was the pump front bearing that was out
Have you put as straight edge across the centres of the top two pulleys? Could you add a second gauge to the same pulley but on the opposite side? Equal movement on both sides of the pump pulley would identify a bit of end float
due to the nature of the stamped pulleys it is difficult to get a straight edge on them
Do you remember on the video you show when you were taking the timing belt cover off there was a lot of residue in it evidence that the belt was hitting somewhere
The pump bearing was shot
Mike
Hi Mike, did you end up finding the problem or not?
Hi Mike, great informative video again, i'm still looking for a Landy, i've now come across a 1971 series 3 been restored, body work, and bulk head, out riggers and chassis quoted as being pristine, its had a 2.8 daihatsu Fourtrak engine fitted, any thoughts on the engine fitted.
The engine was quite popular in the UK as there was a fitting kit available
Just see if it looks right under the bonnet - bodged up hoses and wiring/exhaust etc
@@BritannicaRestorations Thanks for the heads up i will be looking at it on Sunday, would the old gearbox be able to handle the extra power. its also got an overdrive fitted. Dave
The S3 box was weaker than the S2a but had full syncro - I do not know what the power is of the Daihatsu
If you have a few thou end-float on the pump when it is dry, will the end-float be exaggerated when the pump is actually pressurising the fuel, can the pump end float be adjusted? I think if you put a slipper, you would end up with belt/slipper dust in the casing . Can you see if the pump pulley is true to the casing with a straight edge across the pulley? Is there ware on the pump shaft? Just some ideas....
I really don't know - I have no other pumps on hand to check apart from broken ones
The pulley is pressed steels and has no guarantee to be true - I suppose I could find a used one and have my machine shop true it up
The idea for the slipper is no different from the guides round the crank pulley - it would just guide the belt back to it's good place - not a good solution but the options are a new pump and cover - $$$!
And the thing is it is about 2-3 grams pressure to true it up - it is so near and these belts always run forwards - never to the engine
Yes, slipper probably would work, it would just be nice to know what causes the problem.
I will pop down to the machine shop this afternoon
Would love to get to the bottom of this
Hi Mike .
Is there any chance the pulley you've got the DTI on is out of true at all ? Has it been dropped or distorted in some way previously ? Bad one from factory from a worn mould maybe ?
Just a couple of ideas ?
I don't think you could settle for using "a guide" as you'd know that's not how it's meant to be . I think you want it to be "RIGHT !" from watching your other video's. It would be a solution to the problem . but not "fixing" the problem . LOL
Good video as usual sir .
Fattrucker
If you see the following video the bush in the pump was shot
@@BritannicaRestorations That'll teach me to keep up to date. No worries Mike LOL
That's OK!
I stripped a pump does not look a bad job to do
I’m tempted to put in a “drain plug” at the bottom of the case right under the edge of the pulley. Then at each oil change I can remove the plug and inspect where the belt is running. It could help me identify a problem before it turned into a snapped belt. What do you think?
I have seen these cases fill with oil due to a leaking seal - not a good idea
Mike, do you know how much a 300tdi engine weighs? Regards.
200Tdi & 300Tdi around 250 to 275kg fully dressed approx
@@BritannicaRestorations dziękuję Mike
Seems mine is wayyyyy worse? I took some pictures. Belt is about 4mm narrower than the new belt. Wondering if my fuel pump bushing needs a washer or 2? Waiting on an oil seal before fitting to test. What do you think? ibb.co/NF0Bp8z
ibb.co/Kz4V9bK
They reduced the belt tension to 11Nm - I have seen a lot over tightened
@@BritannicaRestorations 11nm! Wow hopefully mine was just to tight! Thanks for all your videos. I'm hoping I dont have the bushing issue :) also going to retime the pump
I found that my belt was catching so took the O ring off the crank and ran true.
But the O ring is an oil seal
@@BritannicaRestorations been running like that for years now and not had any oil come from there
🇮🇪👍👍💕👋🌷
Maybe they should have used a timing chain setup not a belt driven one the beld is equalising with sentrafusial force maybe the bottom right one is further out . Manufacturers takes their manufackturing overseas because labour is acording to them cheaper all is about making the most proffit for as litle as possible labour cost come to hunting in south africa farmers dont want to cater basicaly for south african hunters due to they only get money for the meat with american hunters who only take the horns they sell the skin and the meat so they make more money all to make more money the hunting part is just what i am thinking about now due to it being hunting season now . here everything is made in china even the playstation is made these days in china thats why they are the fastest growing economy in the world today that is why trump is right to try and bring work back for americans.
Zeus did make a gear kit but it didn't catch on