Living here in England specifically in Essex, it is clear that people are living with the sole intention of pleasure and enriching ones self with material things. My church is always half full and church goers are mostly elderly. Pray for us Catholics here in England for we are surrounded in a Godless and secular society.
When I sit in an empty cathedral and pray, I am grateful that I have found this treasure when so many are lost outside. I am aware of the responsibility I have to spread the word, considering the vast numbers of potential converts!
The beauty in a cathedral has to be communicated to be fully effective ---that the purpose behind the beauty is to behold the beauty and power of Christ. Where church communities lose their mission and don't share the gospel with their friends, their co-workers and those within their faith communities, faith dies. The church buildings, no matter how beautiful, become museums that people admire as a purely human endeavor. We are forever looking for magic solutions to bring people to Church, but it is the hard work of evangelism and prayer that did it in the first century and continues to this day. Beauty is an important tool, but the reality of Christ must be communicated through it.
Prayer first and foremost, I have two very dominating relatives who would shut me up never listen but fierce prayer knowing how to apply scriptural answers to narcissism got results in a month each where decades of speech being corrected, talked over did not work.
The beauty of those Churches is supposed to be hand o hand with the traditional mass, traditional baptism and sacraments, the beauty of the Architecture goes together with the beauty of the music, beauty of the chants, of the vestments, of the sermons... Separating all of those is the insanity that entered the church.
The church is not a Roman empire stop forcing people to pray in Latin , the true church of Christ is a charismatic church ( the church of different tongues ) , people should pray in their own languages in proper manner and not must by a Latin Mass
@@ivanniyeha4229 In that you are wrong my friend, the official language of the Church is Latin, the official Bible for the Church is the one written in Latin, and there are great reasons for that, first great reason is that Latin is a Language that our Lord used for our Salvation (Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudæorum), another great reason is that the church herself decided to make Latin the official language because of the precision of the language and also because as dead language it will always work for clarification of teaching and as a unification of worship since the words of a dead language don't change their meaning unlike vernacular languages, and the Church is Catholic (according to the whole/universal) meaning it covers the whole of reality including past, present and future. To give you an example of this last reason pick for example the English word "Nice", if a Catholic was to travel before the 14th century and decided to tell somebody that he was a "nice person" you would be calling that person stupid, ignorant, since that's what that word used to mean, if you pray to God and ask him to be nice to you, now it means "be good to me" but that language wouldn't be precise in time since in the past that would mean "God be stupid/a fool to me", now if you say "misereatur mei Deus" which would be the equivalent in Latin you will be saying the same at every moment in time. The Church speaks in every language when it comes to spreading the Gospel, that's why the Epistle and the Gospel is read in Latin first and then read in Vernacular. For right worship and specially the highest form of worship (The Mass) the Church usually tends to use dead languages like Coptic, Ancient Slavonic, Ancient Greek, etc. But for unity in worship she uses one Language, Latin.
@@ivanniyeha4229 Oh, and by the way it seems like you don't know how the Romans became an Empire, they allowed different Languages to continue to be used but the official language of the Empire was Latin, they even allowed different religions to be practiced but there was an official way of doing so, they incorporated different gods from the different cultures they Conquered and made them become part of the Roman Religion, but in the year 380, the Roman Empire made Christianity the Official religion of the Empire which allowed for Christianity to spread and reach m even more. What I try to point out is that the romans became and empire not only through brute force as many want to believe, but they were very tolerant to other cultures and ways of living, that's why the Jews were able to continue their own way of living within the Roman Empire. Our Lord saw what was good in the Romans and what was bad, and through his blood and the blood of the Martyrs converted the Roman Empire into his Glorious Church taking away everything that was bad in them and saving them making his Glory shine through Rome.
@@irodjetson the early church never used latin as an official language , if so there was no point for inspiration of tongues on the day of Pentecost , earlier gospels were written in vernaculars like Aramaic , Greek and not just in latin , the latin church is a Roman church , the catholic church is a universal church and not just a Roman church , the Roman church used bible to validate their universality for political agenda , the apostolic church in the holy Bible never used latin as an official language , people should pray in a language that they are well aware , stop promoting a Roman empire, the Pope should be a leader of Roman church and not a universal church , this is like replacing a Roman empire with a Roman church , the emparor for the Pope
@@irodjetson I have no problem with the conversion of Roman empire to Christianity , my concern is , the Roman church should not behave as a Roman empire subjugating other churches for political agenda , the universal church is a universal church , a Roman church is a part of it , it is not a universal church.
@Richard Fox As long as there are no legal exemptions for religious organisations. Such as: 1 Children (under 18) should not be subjected to (female and male) genital mutilation 2 Animals should not be subjected to religious slaughter 3 Women and gays should not be discriminated against I am not happy about the religious indoctrination of children
As a British Catholic, I feel that a Protestant mentality plays a part as I remember feeling shocked at the excessive ornamentation of some French churches when I first encountered it, feeling it was wrong to be so ostentatiously rich. I think dwindling congregations also reflect dwindling community feeling in general: when we suggest getting involved in the parish to people under 50, they look like we're speaking a foreign language nor can't they imagine having time out from their fitness routine or hobbies at the weekend to commit to taking one hour for God per week. Strangely, suicide rates are not dwindling.
Being involved with the Church at young age means your goody goody. I never understood the draw to be a altar boy or go to Mass everyday. If you watch popular culture its sex,drugs and alcohol for entertainment. Movies and music sell bad behavior. Rehab is part of growing up. I attended Catholic school for 12 years. I never felt like a Catholic. Forty years later it all came back to me. I just got up one day went to Church. A couple weeks later I went confession, so I could go to communion. I was not struck by lightning or see angels. I just did what I had to do for my salvation. I look back and admire the few people who maintained their relationship with the Church. The ones who get involved are the ones who keep the Churches doors open. Communion, Salvation, Redemption,Purgatory,Heaven and Hell are strong words.How they fit into every day life are tough to understand when your young and healthy.
@@3m5r56 once people grow up, it's typical their upbringing gets tossed aside to the ways of the world. many do come back later on in life, re-discovering what this was all about.
I'm not from England. But I've noticed not only is the country secularising, but a disproportionate amount of English atheists are staunch and very outspoken about their Atheism.
Joseph Gallagher presumably you are staunch and outspoken about your religion, why shouldn't I be the same about Atheism? Do you want to bring back the blasphemy law?
Not only are so many of our beautiful churches empty, but many of them are being burnt down and it feels like none of us are doing anything to protect them. In France, roughly one church is destroyed every two weeks, while roughly one mosque is built. Christianity is the language of Europe; let us pray that it is not replaced with a false religion.
If a property isn't being used, might as well use it for other things. The number of Churchgoers are declining while the number of Muslims and Muslim reverts in Europe are increasing because quite frankly Muslims have more obligation to go to their mosques than Christians to churches. It is more obligated for Muslim Men to pray their 5 daily prayers at the mosque, and also the compulsory Friday Prayers which every Muslim Men *must* do every Friday. If you can pardon my ignorance, what obligations do Christians have when going to church aside from Sundays?
There is a growing number of ex- Muslims. Islamic society does not want to acknowledge that. Even many Muslim countries are not immune to the effects of liberalism. Many Arab countries are facing their on population decline. Europe may be screwed in the immediate near future. But the Islamic society not looking to good in the long run.
@@sanegayguy You wrote: "If you can pardon my ignorance, what obligations do Christians have when going to church aside from Sundays?" So Muslims then have become little more than the modern version of the Pharisees? Well, there's the answer to your question "...what obligations do Christians have when going to church aside from Sundays?"...because even that (!) is not an "obligation". Jesus reduced everything to a matter of faith and then such simple little "obligations" like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". No wonder he got crucified 'cause people sure do love their rituals the "prove" to the whole world just how much they truly do believe and believe in God/Allah, whomever, don't they? So it really is all simply funny as hell. This country, the USA, summarily kicked God to the curb back in '62 when "they" took prayer out of public schools. And now, all these years later? Now the Muslims are moving in and taking over and...and no one dare challenges them about their religious customs and practices. I wonder why, exactly, that is?
@@jackmorgan8931 "Now the Muslims are moving in and taking over and...and no one dare challenges them about their religious customs and practices. I wonder why, exactly, that is", If you're referring to your country the US, don't you guys have "Freedom of Religion"? Unlike Christians (no offence), the average practicing Muslim take their prayers and faith seriously. If you really think that no one challenges them about their religious customs and practices, then I take you are aware at what their practices actually are? They got their 5 pillars : 1. Reciting the Shahada 2.Praying 5 times a day 3.Paying Zakat (a charity tax) 4.Fasting during the month of Ramadan 5.Initiating Pilgrimage if you're financially stable. Avoiding Major sins such as : -Adultery -Ingesting things that can intoxicate you (Alcohol, Drugs) -Eating Pork (because they're dirty animals) and 4-legged animals that eats other living beings. -Backbiting (honestly, so many people missed that this is a HUGE sin in Islam, yet most do it anyway) Idk about you but these practices seems pretty harmless, and can even be considered healthy. They advocate saving sexual pleasure with another person until marriage (not only this prevents STDs from spreading but also prevents unwanted childbirth and abortions altogether), not destroying their mind with drugs, and their liver with alcohol, and even scientists agrees that the diet practicing muslims have eating beef and goat is healthier than eating pork. And you question why their practices aren't being challenged? (if you're gonna reply with the "honor killings" and executions that happens in the Middle East, don't. Those customs predates Islam which was called "the Jahiliah time" which means "Ignorant Times", and you literally don't see those things happening anywhere else in the world, not by the muslims in your country, not in Asian Muslim majority countries like Malaysia,Brunei and Indonesia and definitely not in the UK and Europe)
The Cathedral in the thumbnail is from my home city of Liverpool and I've been many times. It's surreal, a blend of brutalist architecture and postmodernism, more of a cold gallery. No wonder the faithful do not often attend when there are beautiful Orthodox churches nearby
Here in Wales mass goers quartered in 12 years and halved in the last three. The only parishes that have survived the free fall are an ordinariate parish, the Oratory and Ledbury... None feature the novus ordo. Sadly the great wrecking ball of Buenos aries is spreading his hate as the Bishop of Rome
@@johncharleson8733 He ie prepping Tagle of Manila, they call him Ihip Bola or puff balls. Together they have lost more sheep than by Luther. If they were operating a business, the board of directors would have had them both thrown in the Tiber.
Please make a video about the beauty of the chanted Liturgy of the Hours. Me and my Father learned to chant them together and it changed our lives. Afterwards, I studied the Divine Office at a Dominican priory for eight months while earning a Master of Arts in Philosophy. A rebirth of chanted prayer in the lay household could, in my opinion, change the entire world of Christianity and re-awaken a tradition of meditation that would speak to an eternal spirituality. My voice is too small to spread the word, but if Catholics like you with big voices could say something about Catholic chanting and meditation, I think you could make the world of traditional Catholicism considerably more vibrant.
Surfing the internet. I came across Music of Hildegard von Bingen. Listening to music from 1000 years ago opens your mind. Listening to Chanting written during the early centuries is inserational.
The example of the Pieta is a beautiful and effective one. When I first went to St. Peters, and turned to the right and saw it, i was immediately hit by an inexplicable feeling of sadness, love, and peace. You can't describe the feeling until you have been there. I got the same feeling at Chartres Cathedral in France, and with the Chagall Stained Glass Windows at St Stephen's Church in Main, Germany.
Statistics for England and Wales: In 1958, (pre-vatican II), there were 16,000 converts into Catholicism in England and Wales. In 2003, there were 3,000 1954, (pre-Vatican II), there were 8 ordinations for every 100,000 Catholics in England and Wales. 2003, less than 1 per 100,000. Faithful Catholics voted with their feet after Vatican II, but the joy-boy bishops could care less.
The working class in southern England has been secular for centuries. The protestant reformation made Christianity all about middle class respectability. My grandparents were born in the 1890s and they never went to church except for an occasional wedding, or for funerals. Church was for "posh" people. And today, single people get ignored by priests and congregations - they're only interested in families I find. A few city-centre churches such as those run by the Oratorians are very different and they welcome everyone - but they are few and far between unfortunately.
Lately, we've seen a lot of ads by church pastors here in the U.S. for families... as in "And bring the kids along". Religion is generational. I would have never been religious if it weren't for my parents dragging me and my siblings along to Sunday School and Church.
I read on the internet that France is losing a religious building literally every two weeks due not only to outright neglect but also to arson. The 1905 law in France separating church and state declared that the sacred buildings were actual property of the government which promptly made the various cities and departments responsible for maintenance. Of course the cost was humongous and so the buildings were left to deteriorate. Sad.
We have an ugly 1960's warehouse of a church yet we are full. It's the traditional liturgy with FSSP priests. We were given an ugly church by our archbishop to discourage but it didnt work.
So... the ugliness and poor artwork did NOT destroy people’s souls. Hmmm... better get together and agree on what the newer churches are doing. I guess they only destroy the souls of the NO mass attendees. Good grief!!!
I remember reading Jane Austin on King Henry VIII, she said, the only good thing he ever did was liter the country side with beautiful old ruins to explore (referring to the abandoned monasteries). She was of course being facetious.
I visited a gorgeous 14th century church in England a few years ago: Outside it was stunning in its architecture and grandeur. Then I went inside. There was a choir loudly practicing a secular play. In a small side chapel a female priest was leading a handful of people in vespers. Tourists like me admired some of the original church, like tombs inside the main hall. Most of the inscriptions read something like this: “This used to hold the body of ____ which was dumped/burned in the 16th century…all the jewels and decorations on the tomb were scraped off in the 16th century…” I approached in awe and reverence, left in sorrow.
A significant reason the peoples are ignorant of their spiritual patrimony is because religious sisters, post-Vatican II, sacrificed their classrooms and their clinics for secular notions of success/relevance/power. Now we have multiple generations poorly catechized or never evangelized by their works of mercy.
My parents read Bible stories to my siblings and me almost every day until they were satisfied that we were reading Bible stories for ourselves on a regular basis. They encouraged us to memorize Bible passages. I consider those things to have been helpful but even more helpful was that our parents DIDN'T teach us that hell is a place (they thought of it as an event) and they DIDN'T teach us that an organization IS the church (from my own reading of the Bible I concluded that the biblical usage of the word "church" is as a reference to a] everyone who is learning to trust the Lord or b] all of the people in specific place who are learning to trust the Lord.) There were other doctrines that our parents DIDN'T teach us but I'm s sure as I can be that if they had taught us the doctrines already mentioned (or maybe even only one of them), I would not be a Christian today. Given that the majority of the English were taught both of those things over the last several centuries, it is no great surprise to me that the church buildings are nearly empty on most Sunday mornings. That trend is happening in the United States too - only more slowly. No one in our family is Hebrew and we don't follow the religion of traditional Judaism but one encouraging trend is that more and more people are becoming interested in the Hebrew Bible. If the definitions of the Hebrew words are used (instead of ostensibly Christian English translations of those words) it is far less likely that the Hebrew words will be understood as meaning that hell is a place - even liss likely that they will be understood as meaning that hell is a place under the earth where the creator roasts sinners in perpetuity.
@@rogermetzger7335 you will believe in it when you get their. Your parents were not faithful to the correct Christian teachings. If they were not faithful ....
@@johnpglackin345 People in western Europe were told exactly that for more than a thousand years - and it seemed to "work" too. That combined with excommunication and torture and executions seemed to "persuade" the vast majority of the populace. After the eighteenth century, not so much.
I'm a Brit and over the years I've actually polled many of my fellow Brits on the subject of religious affiliation. I can certainly confirm that the churches are emptying and that within the mainstream, Brits are becoming less religious. However the claim by the speaker that the irreligious are arrogant is itself woefully arrogant. People hold - or lack - beliefs for all manner of reasons, and many, many of those who are nowadays counted with the so-called "nones" are thoughtful and intelligent, often well informed, by no means insensitive to beauty, by no means ignorant of ideas. Certainly no more guilty of arrogance, on average, than their believing counterparts, that's for sure.
I'm a Brit too, and similarly try to guage people's beliefs. What you say is an approximation, I think, to the truth. People think they have good reasons but when you start to push them on specifics those good reasons are actually assumptions or inherited ideas from the prevailing culture they don't realise they've actually absorbed. They have no idea about the historicity of the Gospels; the excellent philsophy on which we can base our claims or how science and Christian faith are symbiotic. My analysis is simple. In the latter 20th century and early 19th century when Biblical criticism was at it height and philosophy was moving towards verficationism the church lost confidence in its truth claims and began to abandon rigorous intellectualism. People rarely defended the faith, so it was unique when people like CS Lewis did so. The ideas of academia were passed second hand into the seminary and theological colleges until most clergy were doubtful of their own truth claims. Then, as it is said, the philsophy of one generation became the common sense of the next. And the culture followed. So the critical claims of a century ago are still circulated as relevant today and have achieved the status of common knowledge - but are incorrect. People are raised in this culture and absorb it and parents of previous generations raised in an intellectual vacuum failed to pass on the faith to their kids. In short, the church failed to challenge the metanarrative and educate the next generation. Now society believes x, y and z about Christianity but these are largely incorrect or deeply misguided. But, the damage has been done. If you talk to many of the youth they have NO idea about Christian truth claims. They are full on pagans. Spiritual hedonists that simply know Christianity is not true but have no actual reasons for this.
@@Maggia1981 Everyone inherits ideas from the cultures they inhabit: the same would have been true of Christians three or more generations ago, and is also true for people of non-Christian faiths. The majority of people, perhaps everywhere, are not always deeply informed about whatever spiritual tradition surrounds them - nothing unique on that score. I have had some training in comparative religion and am in no ways convinced that the central claims of Christianity are uniquely and demonstrably true if only we have the intellectual rigour to defend them persuasively. I am not sure what you intend to convey in your reference to "full on pagans", but some self styled pagans I have encountered have been highly intelligent and deeply moral, successful as human beings, which is good enough for me.
@@Maggia1981 "...how science and Christian faith are symbiotic." How many inventions or medicines work based on biblical theory? ZERO. How many effective ones are based on science? *Millions.*
We have to take into account that we are still in a pandemic so some people may still be cautious about attending mass. From what I observe seeing a church half full would be a good attendance today more typically like a third full.
God ordained the Church to reveal himself to lost humanity through Jesus Christ. The Church is was given a mandate by God to share his love in a message with transforming power to a fallen world. Great show on the Church.
I grew up in England. Brought up in the Church of England. Way back in the 1950 and early 60’s I remember only a few people going to church in our village church. A beautiful gothic church. Probably built in the 14century. I live in Northeastern Pa. I-am Catholic. Long story.
Great start in dialogue. Just wish I could get more on this subject. I’m aware of the long war in France over Protestant and Catholic strife a few centuries ago. I’ve wondered the same thing. Has someone written a book on this important subject? Not just history but the failings in Europe on evangelism. In Germany, anyone who is a member of a church is taxed extra which is no different than Islamic taxation levied on non-Muslim religions if in their specific country.
Churches which meet in school halls and community centres rather than having their own buildings seem to be pretty full in my experience Our church meets in the village hall each week and it is generally rammed I have only attended one Anglican Church on a regular basis for a period again in a village and again it was standing room only with two services on a Sunday morning The common denominator? An emphasis on a personal relationship with each member of the Trinity and a theology which embraced a charismatic understanding of spiritual gifts
I agree. the church is not the building, however old or however lovely people think it is. The people are the church and you can praise God anywhere. School hall, community centre, your home or outdoors. There is nothing wrong with tradition. as long as it does not become a religion itself. Lets move forward prayerfully.
My church up in Scotland is very modern (built in the last ten years) but manages to give an incredibly reverent liturgy. I think that’s what people like St. John Henry Newman and the Oxford Movement wanted at the start of the 19th century. They saw how the Reformation and the Industrial Revolution was destroying the spiritual soul of England.
I think you're right that there's a marvellous architectural movement building holy, sober, stone based churches and convents and giving people places to pray and receive God's Grace. I know of several monasteries in France in this vein and thank God for them.
I remember seeing the church at the shrine near Walsiingham, not the beautiful little Slipper Chapel but the one where our group had daily Mass and I got to sing the psalm. I wondered why it had so many emergency exits so I looked up and saw bare steel beams. Ugly and DANGEROUS because exposed steel buckles in a fire, hence all those emergency exits. But bare steel is HONEST or PROLETARIAN or some other rubbish that meant more to the architect than making a beautiful and functional church.
Your saying your architect was not a believer in God ,but the revolution. Revolutions never end. New revolution is the climate.God bless your congregation. n
We Muslimeen believe Isa (“Jesus”) عليه السلام is a great Messenger of ALLAH . Isa (“Jesus”) عليه السلام never told people to worship him. He worshipped only ALLAH. Isa (“Jesus”) عليه السلام is a great human. A human eats food and drinks water. Do read the Qur’an 🌹
They have water down the Faith. Mass said in English. We have tried to make the Holy Roman Catholic Church more like the Anglican church. I see the day when being an active Gay person is okay. Female Priests, etc.
I love Joseph Pearce so much but I actually can't understand what his point was about the rock. What happened to the beautiful rock that the guy saidcwasbthe most beautiful he'd ever seen and then took away? I felt like he stopped the story right there... or Did he carve it into the Pieta? I listened twice but am ignorant here. Can anyone enlighten me please?
The original question, “Why do you have all these beautiful churches in Europe but they’re all empty?” doesn’t employ that the beauty is why they’re empty. Rather it states what the speaker is talking around; Europe is full of atheists. Beautiful churches don’t repel people: but neither do they attract the truly faithful. A “CHURCH” (THE Church) has absolutely nothing to do with the building (nor with being “uplifted”) The “Church” is the body of the faithful. Nothing more: nothing less.
I can't help feeling that the root problem for Christianity is that it is based firmly, not on the teachings of its supposed founder, but on the crazy theology of St Paul, who never met Jesus, who seems to have been totally ignorant of any of Christ's teachings, yet felt himself impelled by the kind of experience that many -- e.g. David Icke -- have had, namely an overwhelming emotion-charged conversion causing him to undergo an extreme personality change. His legacy is one reason why many of us in the UK do not go to church at all -- we can see that Jesus's legacy has been usurped and distorted, even though we don't always know why. I also worry about the anti-Muslim sentiments expressed by many people replying here. It can be argued that viewing religion as a thing to argue or even fight over is itself indicative of a primitive, certainly not a spiritual, viewpoint. The truth is that for many churchgoers over the centuries, either you were forced to go, or went as a social duty to get some kind of reward. Now there are many other ways to get social and other satisfactions, people no longer have that need to get them at church.
As a non-believer I often like to listen to what the other side has to say, but hmmm..People who look at the pieta and don't see the transcendental, the metaphysical are blind! Well, that is certainly a resounding and convincing argument, which, by the way sounds very much like the Emperor's new clothes.
Love the thoughts. As an American Baptist here are mine. The church is the body of believers. Never a building. That said I wish we have better buildings, y'all got some great buildings in Europe. 2. I believe the failure of the European church is having a state church. Yoking the state with the church always MURDERS the church slowly
A building doesn't make a church. People make the church. The building may not be very important in the function of a church. A dedicated building is not essential a church can rent a theatre for example or room.
The Enlightenment might be a reason, I would suggest the false dilemma between religion and reason only came to the fore long after the era of the philosophes. The later nineteenth century saw a devotional culture aided by inexpensive and high quality printing and manufacture. Yet come the 60s, the bishops and priests in the wake of Vatican 2 seem to denigrate this devotional culture. It matters little that V2 said nothing against the traditional Mass and devotions, but these were pushed aside by priests lusting after novelty. The traditional Mass which gave the poorest a sight of Heaven vanished. The people who encountered this often stayed, but their children departed. The Catholicism of the 70s onwards was something less able to foster devotion. When it was Fr Chris Polyester every Sunday, it was often a easily made choice to opt out.
So the grandness of the churches didn't empty the churches, it just didn't prevent it from happening.... I'm thinking that is a distinction without a difference.
I would go further & say that church culture now demands that believers be irrational. If you are a rational believer, you will rejected & ejected from your church IME. This happenedd to me after more than 30 years serving a church I loved, even decades as an elder. I have a science, engineering education & retired from work as an analyst programmer. But was then forced to leave the church, because I would not engage with stupidity & opposed disfunctional behaviour.
Would you listen to a suggestion from a non-believer? I’d respectfully suggest that, if you want your churches to fill up again to, say, the sort of level they enjoyed when I was a kid, then (amongst various other things, naturally) there one key thing which you can do: think very hard and carefully about why anyone should think that the teachings of your church are TRUE. I’d suggest that this is more important than making your churches and church services beautiful. It’s even more important than behaving well towards non-members. It’s certainly more important than saying rude things about ‘arrogant’ non-members. Surely, if you can show people that what you teach is TRUE, then everything else is subordinate. Why are doctors’ surgeries so well attended? For one key reason: people have reason to believe that modern medicine is, by and large, good, true science. Making the surgeries welcoming places is of secondary importance. Harassing people for not coming may, in some cases, do some good - but it’s not the central message. It’s people’s belief in modern medicine that draws them to doctors’ surgeries. I suggest that the main reason church membership and church attendance have slumped is that people are now sceptical about what the churches teach.
There's truth here but Mr. Stevens illustrates the problem. He instinctively thinks the faith is not true otherwise he'd be in church. Like most he is probably not aware of the evidence and good arguments for Christian belief and why we can trust the Gospels and has probably absorbed the very opposite impression, almost subliminally, from a culture that wants this to be true. The culture doesn't want the faith to be true and so believes this is the case and find reasons or evidences to confirm this bias and then teaches its children this. I wrote about this above, but we lost the culture a century ago and although the Christian faith passed the test we lost the popular argument in the meantime. We also have a problem with form. The mass, or any Christian service where the Gospel is proclaimed expresses a faith position - it is not a string of rational arguments for Christian truth claims, so someone walking into church for the first few times would NEVER be exposed to Christian apologetics. In 20 yrs since coming to the faith at Uni, I have never once heard one apologetic argument made in church - never have I heard the reasons for faith ever expounded in a church building - except on an apologetics blog! In fact the form is quite alien and assumes some prior understanding and some kind of priori belief. Counter-intuitively new believers need to do their own searching and seek guidance from places other than the church to receive this intellectual nourishment - Bishop Barron is right on the ball here! My own faith journey was grounded in the teleological and moral arguments but these weren't ever presented by the Church. I had to read the Case for Christ and the Case for Faith by Lee Strobel first. Then I built up my knoweldge through William Lane Craig and the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics and St. Edmund's college.
@@Maggia1981 I’m sorry to have to point it out brutally, but your first paragraph couldn’t be more wrong. I won’t trouble you with my autobiography, but I have, I’m sure, a very good understanding, developed over several decades, of the arguments and evidence produced by Christian apologists. Also, I would even dare to suggest that my knowledge of the Bible is better than that of the average ‘believer’. You are employing, without a shred of evidence to support it, a tactic routinely used by Christians: “if you disagree with us, it just means that you are ignorant - you haven’t studied the subject”. Not only is this intellectually dishonest; it’s a sure way to antagonise people! I’m sorry if this sounds abusive, but it’s one of those cases where plain speaking is the only option. Put yourself in my shoes: what else can I, without prevarication, say to you? But perhaps you weren’t expecting a response from me?
@@willstevens4289 I have now met a Christopher Hitchens sound alike. I say that mostly as a compliment. I have listened to many of his debates, read his books and am an amateur authority. Churches are empty in America, and I suspect Europe as well, because they offer nothing people don't hear regularly on CNN. They bend over backward to be WOKE, relevant and secular. Why get out of bed on Sunday morning, go listen to a person garbed in some silly costume tell us that transgender hippopotami are oppressed and that the world will be better off when one is the Bishop of the diocese. That's why even most liberals don't attend the established church. The church panders in order to gain more attendees. It hasn't worked in Europe and it is failing miserably in the U.S. And, it's a good thing. Pomp and circumstance without the Spirit of God just makes God sick anyway.
"I suggest that the main reason church membership and church attendance have slumped is that people are now skeptical about what the churches teach." I think you are right. Teaching the TRUTH is what is important. Then, let the chips fall where they may.
Having lived and grew up Catholic in 70s and onward we saw that the NO watered down and trivialized the Mass and other things within the faith Silly acting priests and silly performances called “the mass” NO turned people off and also. Didn’t people on I attend the TLM- churches are lovely, people dress appropriately and act so in life TLM are packed Average TLM mass goer is intelligent and devout NO destroys art, music and souls
Here we go again - tearing down your fellow Catholics. So tired of this!!! Grew up in the Latin Mass - was thrilled when it was gone and we could understand what was being said. New churches - I think most of the artisans, painters and tradespeople who did the work on the beautiful Old Cathedrals are gone and we now don’t have extraordinary wealthy patrons willing to pay for work like that. Not to mention that the tradespeople who did that work do not exist in great numbers ( if any ) Churches are expensive to build, even the least ornate ones. And the people in the pews spend years raising money in their parishes to build a new building. There are a few old Cathedrals in the older areas of the city, but think about driving down there in a Canadian winter where there is almost no parking - in lovely clothes that look “ appropriate and modest” A huge parka and jeans with leggings underneath is appropriate here. If Church would be cancelled because of “ snow days “, there would be almost no mass in the winter. And if you don’t have a vehicle - maybe you could take the bus, lol
Chris Campbell and P J Smith, I think you both have made good points and oddly enough, are both right. There is good in either way. lol.... enjoy your churches and be happy praising God. 💗💗💗💗💗
As a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have FAITH, not a religion, I need no building to pray in, I need only my relationship with God the Father and His only begotten son, and His Holy spirit. God's word is not fully taught in so called churches. Studying His word with a few believers at home is more productive, and you will get the whole picture/essence of what is being taught. When two or more believers are studying and discussing His word, His spirit is present, and guiding you. Many churches are based on non truthful messages and platitudes, not telling what you should expect should you not repent, and change your path. Praying to Mary is not in the Bible, she was Blessed by being chosen to be the vessel, but is not an Icon! We are not to have Icons, we are not to worship statues, it's time the truth of God's Holy word be taught, in full. Before anyone even starts to call themselves a Christian, they must be born again in Christ, repenting their sins, and asking for His Holy spirit to come into our hearts and guide our learning, and living the way we are called to do. We are all sinners, and no one is perfect (like Jesus was and is), but we are called to do our best, to stay faithfull to Him until the end. Blessings and love to you all, in the name of Our King of Kings, The wonderfull and glorious Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.
I still don’t quite get his point. The Enlightenment happened over a century before the USA was founded…yet plenty of American, “ugly” churches are full of awesome Christians serving an awesome God. Why this huge divide?
Many of the services that used to be provided by the church, (education, healing/medicine, social services - therapies, charity, entertainment), are now provided by secular sources so the church is seen as obsolete. 'Successful' churches are culturally relevant - use of pop/rock music, different media, etc. They tend to be evangelical/fundamentalist too.
I would have liked to hear your guest elaborate more on "They fill the vacuum of their ignorance with the arrogance of rationalism" in the context of Creationism vs Evolution. Is he saying 'They" are ignorant because of that which they don't know? Or is he saying "They" are ignorant because of that which they think they know? Science relies on empirical data whereas religion relies on faith. One is objective and the other subjective.
In my county three new churches have been build and they are anything but ugly. They resemble each other with the gigantic perfectly sculpted wooden beams converging into the center holding the roof up. The stained glass windows are magnificent and the upholstered pews are wonderful, a fountain in the center of one of them is for baptisms. I just recently stopped going to the small county church near my house and now go to one of the new ones. The drive is far but i like the church. So yes, this is coincidental because i just left the old church and am going to the new one now. I live in the old country part of the county where the farms are. There are three mega churches in the county for non denominationals. There are Catholic schools as well but some don't belong to any church anymore. anyone from the county can go to them. Used to be you had to belong to the parish there. There is one very large Catholic school that is independent.
Interesting perspective on the loss of faith in Europe, Joseph Pearce. Too bad there's a false binary between religion and reason. Old Testament refers to need to use reason: Wisdom 17:12-13 (Good News Translation) "Fear is nothing but the failure to use the help that reason gives. When you lack the confidence to rely on reason, you give in to the fears caused by ignorance."
A small question I have been asking our Materialist friends is, give me a Materialist explanation for Beauty? From a Materialist/Neo Evolutionist point of view what is the advantage of Beauty?
Aesthetics: beauty, In mammals genetic fitness (symmetry) In visual terms, it is various elements in a perfect balance, beauty is simultaneously stimulating and restful to behold. ( l could give you 10 more reasons off the top of my head) 😉 In religious terms. Let's try this unusual argument. Beauty could be likened to a litmus test 😂 ln the wicked it will inflame lust or averice or a desire to destroy from envy In the "would be goods" it will invoke awe, wellbeing and a desire to preserve and create beauty, and an awe in God.
The honest truth is that people have started to see clearly that God can't be contained into aesthetics. The relationship between people and the concept of what church is, has fragmented to become cautious of aesthetic, for it may attempting to sell the spectacle as evidence for holiness. It is an identical criticism to point at Evangelical mega-churches. The lack of people going to church, particularly large established ones isn't a good measure of telling how many Christians there are, it's just not as obvious as counting the congregation. In addition, the larger the church, the easier it is for compromise and importance of reputation begins to make the truth secondary, considering the state has close watch to make sure it's of approved political doctrine. The smaller the church, the less the state cares.
try divorcing the thoughts of relating the building that’s open once a week to the actual body of Christ that is not in a temple fashioned by human hands
The Government declared UK a secular state. The lawmakers and the establishment that uphold the law have removed God from their deliberations. Society reflects these new values
So strange he connects the lack of religiosity in Europe with the enlightenment when America was founded by enlightenment values. I'm not fully in disagreement but there has to be something in addition to it for explanation.
Actually many of the first colonies and settlements were founded on Christian principles and values. The Puritans in New England, The Quakers in Pennsylvania, The Catholics in Maryland, and the Spanish Catholic Missions in the West and Southwest are just a few examples so the bedrock of religiosity was laid early. The Founding Fathers of The Republic based the political system on the ideas of the Enlightenment, in particular John Locke, but even most of them had deep religious convictions. A certain amount of revisionist history has taken hold that downplays the role Christianity played in the founding and elevated the influence of the Enlightenment. They were both important to the birth of our nation. One of the reasons the British and Dutch colonies succeeded where other powers like France and Spain failed was people came here to have religious freedom and make permanent settlements based on their faith instead of just looking for riches or evangelizing to the natives. Anyway, that's part of it. It's why we are still one of the most religious countries in the world, even though some faiths have been led astray but that is a conversation for another topic. Sorry if this post was a bit long but that is my take on it.
@@itinerantpatriot1196 I would not say that France and Spain were failed colonizers. France had established colonies, they just lost a war in Canada to England and later also sold land to the US, minimizing their presence. And Spain was the most successful of all countries. Their language is the number one spoken in the new world, and they created a new people by integrating with the natives. A lot of south American countries have cities that look like Europe with stone buildings and cobblestone streets. Also the Enlightenment itself was not anti religious at first but it definitely seems to have evolved into that. I would like to see how religious Europe was compared to the US over time to see when they seemed to become less so. Then examine what events/politics ect are occurring at that time that we can connect to the drop.
@@schadenfreude191 It's true Spain and France had colonies in other parts of the America's. I was referring to the U.S. only. That said, most of the colonies established by those other powers maintained more of an imperial style of administration based on Mercantilist principles, especially in the Spanish settlements. And I agree not all Enlightenment philosophy was anti-religious but some was. This was especially true in the case of the French Revolution. My point was, there has been a tendency over the past few decades to downplay the role faith played in the founding of our nation and elevate the Enlightenment to a more prominent position. The Great Awakening is a good example. It is barely mentioned when the Revolution is discussed but it played a key role in priming the pump so to speak prior to 1776. It's similar to what happened with slavery and teaching of the Civil War. Over time, the myth of The Lost Cause took root and states rights became the lens through which the Civil War was taught for a long period. I guess what I'm saying is, we have a deep tradition of religious freedom and have, until recently, put stock in providence. I think that is why faith plays a more prominent role in our culture but that is shifting here as well. The church is in crisis and needs to address it before we go the way of Europe. You make some very good points and I agree with much of what you say. Thank you for a nice civil discussion on the matter.
@@itinerantpatriot1196 The enlightenment was based on the two poles of Hermeticism and Proto science. It is this Hermeticism, although practiced by some elite Christians at the time, in all sincerity, (looking at you Mr Newton) that is antithetical to Faith. Man is the measure of all things? As above so below! Science is funded by the modern heirs of Hermeticism & gnosticism, (same goals) "Man will become a god" Bhagwan - Eastern mysticism etc, Man will help God by co-creating, because God had a "little accident"( the shells) -Kaballah and so on. Its all very head swelling and brings with it a euphoric psychotic certainty.
When asking why churches are emptying, Catholic spokespeople never look inward and say "because many of the Church's teachings and official actions are irrational/indefensible." I refer to teachings on homosexuality and contraception (intrinsically disordered?), women priests (unable to mirror Christ's masculinity?), remarried divorced people barred from communion (because they're living in sin?), excommunication of women who have abortions, etc etc etc.
@@johncharleson8733 You nicely illustrate the precise point that I was making: that what you call "the Church's rational" is inviolable. There is no room for genuine introspection or movement. If I disagree with what you regard as an immutable teaching, you assume (without really knowing anything about me) that I am ill informed about the theology, history and sociology. I am reminded of a Shirly McLean TV interview in the 1970s, soon after China had opened up to the West. She reported on an interaction she had with a Chinese official on art in China. She asked him what would happen if an artist produced work that was critical of the Communist regime. "We would teach the artist the philosophy of Marx and prove to him that the Communist Party is right." [He meant, of course, that the artist would be sent to one of their infamous "re-education camps".] But she pressed him -- what if the artist would still insist on depicting anti-communist art? "We would give him further education," was the response. And so it went on. The official just could not countenance the possibility that his beloved communist party could ever be wrong. Think it possible that I am not ill-informed about the Church's rational and teachings; that I love and care about the Church. The words of GK Chesterton come to mind: "Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.”
@@DK-tk1nu All reverence is gone, the priest at TLM was an anonymous faceless priest. All you noticed was the vestments and the gestures. Jesus was foregrounded. Now he's a self conscious man, a performer, the star of the show, he needs props, gimmicks, guitars, microphones, and frankly, annoying lay people in horrendous technicolour satin costumes. There is no reverence Where is the sacred space now? Where are the silences?
I noticed that the speaker mentioned nothing about faith, the gospel, obedience to God's word, or prayer. When the church recaptures that then they will fill their churches.
Yeah but he analysed the problem well from a cultural point of view. In a short interview such as this it is not always easy to preach a gospel sermon as well as address all the issues…
I go to a church that gets at least 300 at 8:00. We believe the Bible word for word and people flock to the Church. There are two stories that I come across as I get to know people. One story is that the old church wasn't "cutting it," be it Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc, They feel that the Bible was being edited by these Churches to meet the "changing times " or to put it another way, God on my terms instead of God on God's terms. The other story is one of recovery. People who led a life of drugs and crime and have reformed themselves because of the Church. People want to know what is in the Bible and how to lead a Christian life. Our Church does not believe that Women should be in leadership positions, yet the place is teeming with Women. We have more women, and for that matter children, than my old Episcopalian Church had members. there is no passing the plate for an offering, only a box in the back where people donate. All debts are paid off and we have $3 million in the bank. The Paster sits on a stool and reads the Bible verse by verse and discusses it with us. That's it. There is a thirst for religion, but not the edited feel good "everyone goes to heaven" type.
Liverpool, England, and the local Catholics call it "Paddies Wigwam", they are mostly of Irish descent and so "allowed",😂 Its a theme bte the City Centre market is referred to as Paddies Market The inside at least has the benefit of the light thru the stained glass. But the sheer amount of concrete is intrusive it feels like a Community Centre, Cost the Church quite a bundle and is next to a Gothic style Anglican cathedral, which however was built by masons in the C19th. If you ever have the chance to visit this fascinating city the locals are friendly, very proud of their heritage and will eagerly point you too all the landmarks. Best sense of humour too.
When I listened to this guys story I laughed because of all the christian metaphors I have heard his was about the LAMEST, and it made me think he has ROCKS in his HEAD!! Couldn't a person who viewed Michelangelo's Pieta just be awed because it's an awesome piece of art?
In the West we have swallowed wholesale secularism and the diabolical temptation that this life is everything. Shrivelled spiritual knowledge. The speaker is absolutely spot on.
Evermore atheism is of course an important reason. However, I would wager that a large majority of Brits still believe that some kind of supreme being is responsible for their existence. The problem our established Churches have is that in an effort to be all things to all men, they have ended up being of little or no relevance to any. Many people both need and like being told what to do and how to think, as we have clearly witnessed over the last two years in particular. Those that don't, like myself, don't need to go to church, as they will seek their own path to their creator, and will assist others in doing so. I speak as an ordained minister. We don't need faith, we need knowledge. The knowledge of the Laws of Creation. This material reality has LAWS, which we disobey at our own peril. This is what The Bible and the Story of Jesus tell us. It matters not whether all of the Bible actually happened, 75%, 50%,10%, or indeed virtually none of it, for all of it is TRUE in the sense of the knowledge and understanding it imparts to us. The Bible in common with most other religious texts is derived from the knowledge of all ages. They are a series of anecdotes, and fables designed to impart knowledge to the masses, in a form that they will understand and remember so be able to pass on to future generations mainly by word of mouth. What man has done in his arrogance and for his own profit is taken this wisdom and formed a highly profitable and incredibly powerful business out of it. Now that the business model has become passe, and the profits long since invested in the markets, the Established Church is left with a lot of nice buildings and valuable property, and little else, least of all any credibility or useful function.
the ratio et fides explanation may hold some water but my point is the catholic pews are empty because the beautiful treasures - classic example is the role of gregorian chant in liturgy - of our universal church have been disregarded; the clergy have a large responsibility to bear as robert cardinal sarah argues in his trilogy; the scandal of predatory paedophiles has left a sickening stench across our church that has yet to be reckoned for in terms of acknowledgement and reform at every level of clergy; but you are correct in saying that reason has in the non catholic circles concocted the pharisaic simony based option seem more alluring to the gullible convert disinterested in the metaphysics of grace and all things catholic.
I am disappointed that the two Biblically grounded Christians use the word 'church' for a building. ('Empty churches'). Isn't church believers? If these two men are so uncritical with this basic word, how Biblical is there other thinking?
I lived in Ireland for almost 11 years between 2 churches not a sign of a Bishop or Cardinal. Priests reading a bit of Scripture obvious they never studied it. Teaching children Catechism at school stuff like the Beatitutes, gifts of the Spirit, Corporal works of Mercy etc then never hearing it again from the pulpits Catholics are fooled by Cardinals, Priests, Bishops that don't teach Scripture but take the credit. There is no preaching of Scripture in Catholisism. Many are converting to Protestant Faith and Islam. The Catholic Church can't preach and is failing miserably. Fake apparitions and useless Bishops never seen in Churches.
What are the Bishops doing if they are not visiting the churches? In Australia, I lived in a small town and saw the Bishop of the diocese all the time. We even had Cardinal Pell visit once.
@@edmund7290 Yes in Australia but not in Ireland In Ireland the Chief Rabbi gave the blessing at all major events . Believe you me I lived in Ireland and brought it up in conversations. One Bishop was discovered married and working for a firm in America. I know about Australia too as I worked in Sydney for Meriton Properties I loved the Latin Choir in St Mary's Cathedral.
For there is one God , and one mediator between God and men , the man Christ Jesus . (1st Timothy 2-5). I pray in the name of Jesus that all of you traditionally deceived Catholics receive this truth , and stop praying to Mary , or any former saints . Gods Word clearly tells us to never pray to the dead . Christ Jesus is our mediator, no one else ! Love you all !
Has it got anything to do with rationalism as such or religion as such? Isn't it more to do with powerful individuals who used the Church to suppress and stigmatize rational inquiry? For example, both Galileo and Darwin were violently opposed and persecuted in their own day. A later generation of Christians can say: "oh no, we accept that." But in a way, the damage is done. Why would it be strange (or even unjust) for today's people to stigmatize religion or metaphysics in the name of rationalism, when the Church and metaphysics stigmatized rational inquiry by yesterday's people in the name of superstition?
The answer as to why the churches are empty in England is as close as 19th century London history. Charles Spurgeon, a small, weak man with a fragile psyche, unashamedly proclaimed the Gospel and people came by the thousands to hear it.
Living here in England specifically in Essex, it is clear that people are living with the sole intention of pleasure and enriching ones self with material things. My church is always half full and church goers are mostly elderly. Pray for us Catholics here in England for we are surrounded in a Godless and secular society.
Prayers for England
Saint Dominic Savio pray for us
I thought God was everywhere?
Find a TLM as they are full of young people and families
And you have to preach.
When I sit in an empty cathedral and pray, I am grateful that I have found this treasure when so many are lost outside. I am aware of the responsibility I have to spread the word, considering the vast numbers of potential converts!
The beauty in a cathedral has to be communicated to be fully effective ---that the purpose behind the beauty is to behold the beauty and power of Christ. Where church communities lose their mission and don't share the gospel with their friends, their co-workers and those within their faith communities, faith dies. The church buildings, no matter how beautiful, become museums that people admire as a purely human endeavor. We are forever looking for magic solutions to bring people to Church, but it is the hard work of evangelism and prayer that did it in the first century and continues to this day. Beauty is an important tool, but the reality of Christ must be communicated through it.
Dude, you nailed it.
As a convert, you nailed this!
The work is never finished.
Prayer first and foremost, I have two very dominating relatives who would shut me up never listen but fierce prayer knowing how to apply scriptural answers to narcissism got results in a month each where decades of speech being corrected, talked over did not work.
The beauty of those Churches is supposed to be hand o hand with the traditional mass, traditional baptism and sacraments, the beauty of the Architecture goes together with the beauty of the music, beauty of the chants, of the vestments, of the sermons... Separating all of those is the insanity that entered the church.
The church is not a Roman empire stop forcing people to pray in Latin , the true church of Christ is a charismatic church ( the church of different tongues ) , people should pray in their own languages in proper manner and not must by a Latin Mass
@@ivanniyeha4229 In that you are wrong my friend, the official language of the Church is Latin, the official Bible for the Church is the one written in Latin, and there are great reasons for that, first great reason is that Latin is a Language that our Lord used for our Salvation (Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudæorum), another great reason is that the church herself decided to make Latin the official language because of the precision of the language and also because as dead language it will always work for clarification of teaching and as a unification of worship since the words of a dead language don't change their meaning unlike vernacular languages, and the Church is Catholic (according to the whole/universal) meaning it covers the whole of reality including past, present and future. To give you an example of this last reason pick for example the English word "Nice", if a Catholic was to travel before the 14th century and decided to tell somebody that he was a "nice person" you would be calling that person stupid, ignorant, since that's what that word used to mean, if you pray to God and ask him to be nice to you, now it means "be good to me" but that language wouldn't be precise in time since in the past that would mean "God be stupid/a fool to me", now if you say "misereatur mei Deus" which would be the equivalent in Latin you will be saying the same at every moment in time.
The Church speaks in every language when it comes to spreading the Gospel, that's why the Epistle and the Gospel is read in Latin first and then read in Vernacular. For right worship and specially the highest form of worship (The Mass) the Church usually tends to use dead languages like Coptic, Ancient Slavonic, Ancient Greek, etc. But for unity in worship she uses one Language, Latin.
@@ivanniyeha4229 Oh, and by the way it seems like you don't know how the Romans became an Empire, they allowed different Languages to continue to be used but the official language of the Empire was Latin, they even allowed different religions to be practiced but there was an official way of doing so, they incorporated different gods from the different cultures they Conquered and made them become part of the Roman Religion, but in the year 380, the Roman Empire made Christianity the Official religion of the Empire which allowed for Christianity to spread and reach m even more. What I try to point out is that the romans became and empire not only through brute force as many want to believe, but they were very tolerant to other cultures and ways of living, that's why the Jews were able to continue their own way of living within the Roman Empire. Our Lord saw what was good in the Romans and what was bad, and through his blood and the blood of the Martyrs converted the Roman Empire into his Glorious Church taking away everything that was bad in them and saving them making his Glory shine through Rome.
@@irodjetson the early church never used latin as an official language , if so there was no point for inspiration of tongues on the day of Pentecost , earlier gospels were written in vernaculars like Aramaic , Greek and not just in latin , the latin church is a Roman church , the catholic church is a universal church and not just a Roman church , the Roman church used bible to validate their universality for political agenda , the apostolic church in the holy Bible never used latin as an official language , people should pray in a language that they are well aware , stop promoting a Roman empire, the Pope should be a leader of Roman church and not a universal church , this is like replacing a Roman empire with a Roman church , the emparor for the Pope
@@irodjetson I have no problem with the conversion of Roman empire to Christianity , my concern is , the Roman church should not behave as a Roman empire subjugating other churches for political agenda , the universal church is a universal church , a Roman church is a part of it , it is not a universal church.
“Don’t tell me there’s no such thing as sight because some people are blind”. The great Joseph Pierce
@Richard Fox This is what happens when religious organisations have legal powers. Give me Godless secularism anyday.
@Richard Fox As long as there are no legal exemptions for religious organisations. Such as:
1 Children (under 18) should not be subjected to (female and male) genital mutilation
2 Animals should not be subjected to religious slaughter
3 Women and gays should not be discriminated against
I am not happy about the religious indoctrination of children
As a British Catholic, I feel that a Protestant mentality plays a part as I remember feeling shocked at the excessive ornamentation of some French churches when I first encountered it, feeling it was wrong to be so ostentatiously rich.
I think dwindling congregations also reflect dwindling community feeling in general: when we suggest getting involved in the parish to people under 50, they look like we're speaking a foreign language nor can't they imagine having time out from their fitness routine or hobbies at the weekend to commit to taking one hour for God per week. Strangely, suicide rates are not dwindling.
dwindling catholicism is a result of changes in vatican 2 - Novus Ordo mass is 17% of Latin Mass - no wonder the church is being reduced by about 83%
@Richard Fox what indulgences? it was abused in middle ages, no doubt, but now it's no longer an issue.
Being involved with the Church at young age means your goody goody. I never understood the draw to be a altar boy or go to Mass everyday. If you watch popular culture its sex,drugs and alcohol for entertainment. Movies and music sell bad behavior. Rehab is part of growing up. I attended Catholic school for 12 years. I never felt like a Catholic. Forty years later it all came back to me. I just got up one day went to Church. A couple weeks later I went confession, so I could go to communion. I was not struck by lightning or see angels. I just did what I had to do for my salvation. I look back and admire the few people who maintained their relationship with the Church. The ones who get involved are the ones who keep the Churches doors open. Communion, Salvation, Redemption,Purgatory,Heaven and Hell are strong words.How they fit into every day life are tough to understand when your young and healthy.
@@3m5r56 once people grow up, it's typical their upbringing gets tossed aside to the ways of the world. many do come back later on in life, re-discovering what this was all about.
You're right about the obsession with fitness
I'm not from England. But I've noticed not only is the country secularising, but a disproportionate amount of English atheists are staunch and very outspoken about their Atheism.
And...?
@@helpmaboabb what's this "and" for? Do you want more info?
@@AdmiralofU2 and your problem is?
th-cam.com/video/7c5uxWuPR9U/w-d-xo.html
Joseph Gallagher presumably you are staunch and outspoken about your religion, why shouldn't I be the same about Atheism? Do you want to bring back the blasphemy law?
Not only are so many of our beautiful churches empty, but many of them are being burnt down and it feels like none of us are doing anything to protect them. In France, roughly one church is destroyed every two weeks, while roughly one mosque is built. Christianity is the language of Europe; let us pray that it is not replaced with a false religion.
You have to convert the muslims by preaching them the gospel 🙏 Maybe videos such as these will help
If a property isn't being used, might as well use it for other things. The number of Churchgoers are declining while the number of Muslims and Muslim reverts in Europe are increasing because quite frankly Muslims have more obligation to go to their mosques than Christians to churches. It is more obligated for Muslim Men to pray their 5 daily prayers at the mosque, and also the compulsory Friday Prayers which every Muslim Men *must* do every Friday. If you can pardon my ignorance, what obligations do Christians have when going to church aside from Sundays?
There is a growing number of ex- Muslims. Islamic society does not want to acknowledge that. Even many Muslim countries are not immune to the effects of liberalism. Many Arab countries are facing their on population decline. Europe may be screwed in the immediate near future. But the Islamic society not looking to good in the long run.
@@sanegayguy
You wrote:
"If you can pardon my ignorance, what obligations do Christians have when going to church aside from Sundays?"
So Muslims then have become little more than the modern version of the Pharisees?
Well, there's the answer to your question "...what obligations do Christians have when going to church aside from Sundays?"...because even that (!) is not an "obligation".
Jesus reduced everything to a matter of faith and then such simple little "obligations" like "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". No wonder he got crucified 'cause people sure do love their rituals the "prove" to the whole world just how much they truly do believe and believe in God/Allah, whomever, don't they?
So it really is all simply funny as hell.
This country, the USA, summarily kicked God to the curb back in '62 when "they" took prayer out of public schools. And now, all these years later? Now the Muslims are moving in and taking over and...and no one dare challenges them about their religious customs and practices.
I wonder why, exactly, that is?
@@jackmorgan8931 "Now the Muslims are moving in and taking over and...and no one dare challenges them about their religious customs and practices.
I wonder why, exactly, that is",
If you're referring to your country the US, don't you guys have "Freedom of Religion"? Unlike Christians (no offence), the average practicing Muslim take their prayers and faith seriously. If you really think that no one challenges them about their religious customs and practices, then I take you are aware at what their practices actually are? They got their 5 pillars :
1. Reciting the Shahada
2.Praying 5 times a day
3.Paying Zakat (a charity tax)
4.Fasting during the month of Ramadan
5.Initiating Pilgrimage if you're financially stable.
Avoiding Major sins such as :
-Adultery
-Ingesting things that can intoxicate you (Alcohol, Drugs)
-Eating Pork (because they're dirty animals) and 4-legged animals that eats other living beings.
-Backbiting (honestly, so many people missed that this is a HUGE sin in Islam, yet most do it anyway)
Idk about you but these practices seems pretty harmless, and can even be considered healthy. They advocate saving sexual pleasure with another person until marriage (not only this prevents STDs from spreading but also prevents unwanted childbirth and abortions altogether), not destroying their mind with drugs, and their liver with alcohol, and even scientists agrees that the diet practicing muslims have eating beef and goat is healthier than eating pork. And you question why their practices aren't being challenged? (if you're gonna reply with the "honor killings" and executions that happens in the Middle East, don't. Those customs predates Islam which was called "the Jahiliah time" which means "Ignorant Times", and you literally don't see those things happening anywhere else in the world, not by the muslims in your country, not in Asian Muslim majority countries like Malaysia,Brunei and Indonesia and definitely not in the UK and Europe)
The Cathedral in the thumbnail is from my home city of Liverpool and I've been many times. It's surreal, a blend of brutalist architecture and postmodernism, more of a cold gallery. No wonder the faithful do not often attend when there are beautiful Orthodox churches nearby
Agreed that Liverpool Cathedral looks ugly on the outside, inside is a slight improvement!
@@CatholicaTV The Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool is really beautiful.
I remember when flying into Liverpool I saw the Anglican cathedral and thought "oh good they have a classic Catholic cathedral". Oh how wrong I was.
@@tonyoliver2750 Was the Anglican one stolen from the Catholic church by the crown?
@@JohnFromAccounting No. I think it was completed in the 1960s.
Here in Wales mass goers quartered in 12 years and halved in the last three. The only parishes that have survived the free fall are an ordinariate parish, the Oratory and Ledbury... None feature the novus ordo. Sadly the great wrecking ball of Buenos aries is spreading his hate as the Bishop of Rome
I love the Ordinariate
"the great wrecking ball of Buenos Aries" Sorry, I have to steal that one!
@@johncharleson8733 He ie prepping Tagle of Manila, they call him Ihip Bola or puff balls. Together they have lost more sheep than by Luther. If they were operating a business, the board of directors would
have had them both thrown in the Tiber.
@@marriedkiwi I'd like to say unbelievable, but these days what isn't?
On point, the catholic Church need to work harder gaining back those people, cuz people can't be religious if they don't know their religion
I don't agree completely people need to search for Truth. Truth doesn't search for you
The reason so many churches are empty is that the Church is sick, and I mean sick, and in need of purification from the top down.
Please make a video about the beauty of the chanted Liturgy of the Hours. Me and my Father learned to chant them together and it changed our lives. Afterwards, I studied the Divine Office at a Dominican priory for eight months while earning a Master of Arts in Philosophy.
A rebirth of chanted prayer in the lay household could, in my opinion, change the entire world of Christianity and re-awaken a tradition of meditation that would speak to an eternal spirituality.
My voice is too small to spread the word, but if Catholics like you with big voices could say something about Catholic chanting and meditation, I think you could make the world of traditional Catholicism considerably more vibrant.
Surfing the internet. I came across Music of Hildegard von Bingen. Listening to music from 1000 years ago opens your mind. Listening to Chanting written during the early centuries is inserational.
The example of the Pieta is a beautiful and effective one. When I first went to St. Peters, and turned to the right and saw it, i was immediately hit by an inexplicable feeling of sadness, love, and peace. You can't describe the feeling until you have been there. I got the same feeling at Chartres Cathedral in France, and with the Chagall Stained Glass Windows at St Stephen's Church in Main, Germany.
Statistics for England and Wales:
In 1958, (pre-vatican II), there were 16,000 converts into Catholicism in England and Wales.
In 2003, there were 3,000
1954, (pre-Vatican II), there were 8 ordinations for every 100,000 Catholics in England and Wales.
2003, less than 1 per 100,000.
Faithful Catholics voted with their feet after Vatican II, but the joy-boy bishops could care less.
The working class in southern England has been secular for centuries. The protestant reformation made Christianity all about middle class respectability. My grandparents were born in the 1890s and they never went to church except for an occasional wedding, or for funerals. Church was for "posh" people. And today, single people get ignored by priests and congregations - they're only interested in families I find. A few city-centre churches such as those run by the Oratorians are very different and they welcome everyone - but they are few and far between unfortunately.
Lately, we've seen a lot of ads by church pastors here in the U.S. for families... as in "And bring the kids along". Religion is generational. I would have never been religious if it weren't for my parents dragging me and my siblings along to Sunday School and Church.
I read on the internet that France is losing a religious building literally every two weeks due not only to outright neglect but also to arson. The 1905 law in France separating church and state declared that the sacred buildings were actual property of the government which promptly made the various cities and departments responsible for maintenance. Of course the cost was humongous and so the buildings were left to deteriorate. Sad.
We have an ugly 1960's warehouse of a church yet we are full. It's the traditional liturgy with FSSP priests. We were given an ugly church by our archbishop to discourage but it didnt work.
So... the ugliness and poor artwork did NOT destroy people’s souls. Hmmm... better get together and agree on what the newer churches are doing.
I guess they only destroy the souls of the NO mass attendees.
Good grief!!!
Let us go back to cave churches it's doesn't matter
I stopped going to church as a teenager ad I was tired of being told I was a sinner!!! I do hope thay have stopped that nonsense now
Yes, the constant ramming of ancient catholocism turned me into an athiest.
I remember reading Jane Austin on King Henry VIII, she said, the only good thing he ever did was liter the country side with beautiful old ruins to explore (referring to the abandoned monasteries). She was of course being facetious.
liter?
@@larrycarter3765 add an L in your mind if my typo offends you.
I visited a gorgeous 14th century church in England a few years ago: Outside it was stunning in its architecture and grandeur. Then I went inside. There was a choir loudly practicing a secular play. In a small side chapel a female priest was leading a handful of people in vespers. Tourists like me admired some of the original church, like tombs inside the main hall. Most of the inscriptions read something like this: “This used to hold the body of ____ which was dumped/burned in the 16th century…all the jewels and decorations on the tomb were scraped off in the 16th century…”
I approached in awe and reverence, left in sorrow.
The older version of the Act of Contraction " because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell. " Why was if changed?
A significant reason the peoples are ignorant of their spiritual patrimony is because religious sisters, post-Vatican II, sacrificed their classrooms and their clinics for secular notions of success/relevance/power. Now we have multiple generations poorly catechized or never evangelized by their works of mercy.
In England, around 1,400 churches are closing down every year because they are not being used.
My parents read Bible stories to my siblings and me almost every day until they were satisfied that we were reading Bible stories for ourselves on a regular basis. They encouraged us to memorize Bible passages. I consider those things to have been helpful but even more helpful was that our parents DIDN'T teach us that hell is a place (they thought of it as an event) and they DIDN'T teach us that an organization IS the church (from my own reading of the Bible I concluded that the biblical usage of the word "church" is as a reference to a] everyone who is learning to trust the Lord or b] all of the people in specific place who are learning to trust the Lord.) There were other doctrines that our parents DIDN'T teach us but I'm s sure as I can be that if they had taught us the doctrines already mentioned (or maybe even only one of them), I would not be a Christian today. Given that the majority of the English were taught both of those things over the last several centuries, it is no great surprise to me that the church buildings are nearly empty on most Sunday mornings. That trend is happening in the United States too - only more slowly. No one in our family is Hebrew and we don't follow the religion of traditional Judaism but one encouraging trend is that more and more people are becoming interested in the Hebrew Bible. If the definitions of the Hebrew words are used (instead of ostensibly Christian English translations of those words) it is far less likely that the Hebrew words will be understood as meaning that hell is a place - even liss likely that they will be understood as meaning that hell is a place under the earth where the creator roasts sinners in perpetuity.
Well sorry to burst your bubble but Hell is a place.
@@johnpglackin345 Of course it is. Why? Because it is easier to reiterate dogma than to study the meaning of the Hebrew words translated "hell".
@@rogermetzger7335 you will believe in it when you get their. Your parents were not faithful to the correct Christian teachings. If they were not faithful ....
@@johnpglackin345 People in western Europe were told exactly that for more than a thousand years - and it seemed to "work" too. That combined with excommunication and torture and executions seemed to "persuade" the vast majority of the populace.
After the eighteenth century, not so much.
I'm a Brit and over the years I've actually polled many of my fellow Brits on the subject of religious affiliation. I can certainly confirm that the churches are emptying and that within the mainstream, Brits are becoming less religious. However the claim by the speaker that the irreligious are arrogant is itself woefully arrogant. People hold - or lack - beliefs for all manner of reasons, and many, many of those who are nowadays counted with the so-called "nones" are thoughtful and intelligent, often well informed, by no means insensitive to beauty, by no means ignorant of ideas. Certainly no more guilty of arrogance, on average, than their believing counterparts, that's for sure.
Indeed. Yes a Brit myself I can confirm this.
I'm a Brit too, and similarly try to guage people's beliefs. What you say is an approximation, I think, to the truth. People think they have good reasons but when you start to push them on specifics those good reasons are actually assumptions or inherited ideas from the prevailing culture they don't realise they've actually absorbed.
They have no idea about the historicity of the Gospels; the excellent philsophy on which we can base our claims or how science and Christian faith are symbiotic.
My analysis is simple. In the latter 20th century and early 19th century when Biblical criticism was at it height and philosophy was moving towards verficationism the church lost confidence in its truth claims and began to abandon rigorous intellectualism. People rarely defended the faith, so it was unique when people like CS Lewis did so. The ideas of academia were passed second hand into the seminary and theological colleges until most clergy were doubtful of their own truth claims. Then, as it is said, the philsophy of one generation became the common sense of the next. And the culture followed. So the critical claims of a century ago are still circulated as relevant today and have achieved the status of common knowledge - but are incorrect. People are raised in this culture and absorb it and parents of previous generations raised in an intellectual vacuum failed to pass on the faith to their kids. In short, the church failed to challenge the metanarrative and educate the next generation. Now society believes x, y and z about Christianity but these are largely incorrect or deeply misguided. But, the damage has been done. If you talk to many of the youth they have NO idea about Christian truth claims. They are full on pagans. Spiritual hedonists that simply know Christianity is not true but have no actual reasons for this.
@@Maggia1981 Everyone inherits ideas from the cultures they inhabit: the same would have been true of Christians three or more generations ago, and is also true for people of non-Christian faiths. The majority of people, perhaps everywhere, are not always deeply informed about whatever spiritual tradition surrounds them - nothing unique on that score. I have had some training in comparative religion and am in no ways convinced that the central claims of Christianity are uniquely and demonstrably true if only we have the intellectual rigour to defend them persuasively. I am not sure what you intend to convey in your reference to "full on pagans", but some self styled pagans I have encountered have been highly intelligent and deeply moral, successful as human beings, which is good enough for me.
@@Maggia1981 "...how science and Christian faith are symbiotic."
How many inventions or medicines work based on biblical theory? ZERO.
How many effective ones are based on science? *Millions.*
Also 2nd Vatican Council happened and the Novus Ordo which led to loss of faith.
Jesus is beautiful as He ever was, He is beautiful, make Him known and in our preaching and liturgies and people will flock to Him
Amen my friend. God bless
We have to take into account that we are still in a pandemic so some people may still be cautious about attending mass. From what I observe seeing a church half full would be a good attendance today more typically like a third full.
Yes the Enlightenment did harm to church-going in Europe, but in my opinion, we mustn't forget the impacts of both WW.
Finally, spiritually intelligent dialogue about this! Thank you!
God ordained the Church to reveal himself to lost humanity through Jesus Christ. The Church is was given a mandate by God to share his love in a message with transforming power to a fallen world. Great show on the Church.
I grew up in England. Brought up in the Church of England. Way back in the 1950 and early 60’s I remember only a few people going to church in our village church. A beautiful gothic church. Probably built in the 14century. I live in Northeastern Pa. I-am Catholic. Long story.
All those European Churches are now just Museums .....
@Sanctus Paulus 1962 Yes and very sad....
So sad. What are you all doing? What's going on? Praying from Indonesia 😭😭😭
The same in Quebec.
@@bagas4733 teringat kaki Dian yg redup ya
@@bagas4733 oh sama bro. Udah sejak tiga tahun lalu mikir bentar lagi tuh benua bakalan gimana gituh ternyata Makin parah. 😭
Great start in dialogue. Just wish I could get more on this subject. I’m aware of the long war in France over Protestant and Catholic strife a few centuries ago. I’ve wondered the same thing. Has someone written a book on this important subject? Not just history but the failings in Europe on evangelism.
In Germany, anyone who is a member of a church is taxed extra which is no different than Islamic taxation levied on non-Muslim religions if in their specific country.
Churches which meet in school halls and community centres rather than having their own buildings seem to be pretty full in my experience
Our church meets in the village hall each week and it is generally rammed
I have only attended one Anglican Church on a regular basis for a period again in a village and again it was standing room only with two services on a Sunday morning
The common denominator? An emphasis on a personal relationship with each member of the Trinity and a theology which embraced a charismatic understanding of spiritual gifts
I agree. the church is not the building, however old or however lovely people think it is. The people are the church and you can praise God anywhere. School hall, community centre, your home or outdoors. There is nothing wrong with tradition. as long as it does not become a religion itself. Lets move forward prayerfully.
My church up in Scotland is very modern (built in the last ten years) but manages to give an incredibly reverent liturgy. I think that’s what people like St. John Henry Newman and the Oxford Movement wanted at the start of the 19th century. They saw how the Reformation and the Industrial Revolution was destroying the spiritual soul of England.
I think you're right that there's a marvellous architectural movement building holy, sober, stone based churches and convents and giving people places to pray and receive God's Grace. I know of several monasteries in France in this vein and thank God for them.
I remember seeing the church at the shrine near Walsiingham, not the beautiful little Slipper Chapel but the one where our group had daily Mass and I got to sing the psalm. I wondered why it had so many emergency exits so I looked up and saw bare steel beams. Ugly and DANGEROUS because exposed steel buckles in a fire, hence all those emergency exits. But bare steel is HONEST or PROLETARIAN or some other rubbish that meant more to the architect than making a beautiful and functional church.
And Notre Dame is mostly still standing after a massive fire.
Your saying your architect was not a believer in God ,but the revolution. Revolutions never end. New revolution is the climate.God bless your congregation.
n
We Muslimeen believe Isa (“Jesus”) عليه السلام is a great Messenger of ALLAH . Isa (“Jesus”) عليه السلام never told people to worship him. He worshipped only ALLAH. Isa (“Jesus”) عليه السلام is a great human. A human eats food and drinks water. Do read the Qur’an 🌹
They have water down the Faith. Mass said in English. We have tried to make the Holy Roman Catholic Church more like the Anglican church. I see the day when being an active Gay person is okay. Female Priests, etc.
Very good and enlightening about the false teaching of the "enlightenment"!
We need the Holly spirit to do a mighty work again in the West,Many people are turning to Christ in many other parts of the world, praise God
As for Joseph's argument, it's spot on.
I love Joseph Pearce so much but I actually can't understand what his point was about the rock. What happened to the beautiful rock that the guy saidcwasbthe most beautiful he'd ever seen and then took away? I felt like he stopped the story right there... or Did he carve it into the Pieta? I listened twice but am ignorant here. Can anyone enlighten me please?
The original question, “Why do you have all these beautiful churches in Europe but they’re all empty?” doesn’t employ that the beauty is why they’re empty. Rather it states what the speaker is talking around; Europe is full of atheists. Beautiful churches don’t repel people: but neither do they attract the truly faithful. A “CHURCH” (THE Church) has absolutely nothing to do with the building (nor with being “uplifted”) The “Church” is the body of the faithful. Nothing more: nothing less.
Amen!
I can't help feeling that the root problem for Christianity is that it is based firmly, not on the teachings of its supposed founder, but on the crazy theology of St Paul, who never met Jesus, who seems to have been totally ignorant of any of Christ's teachings, yet felt himself impelled by the kind of experience that many -- e.g. David Icke -- have had, namely an overwhelming emotion-charged conversion causing him to undergo an extreme personality change. His legacy is one reason why many of us in the UK do not go to church at all -- we can see that Jesus's legacy has been usurped and distorted, even though we don't always know why. I also worry about the anti-Muslim sentiments expressed by many people replying here. It can be argued that viewing religion as a thing to argue or even fight over is itself indicative of a primitive, certainly not a spiritual, viewpoint. The truth is that for many churchgoers over the centuries, either you were forced to go, or went as a social duty to get some kind of reward. Now there are many other ways to get social and other satisfactions, people no longer have that need to get them at church.
Love Joseph Pearce, he is a treasure to the church. Please fix his last name in the title. Thank you!
As a non-believer I often like to listen to what the other side has to say, but hmmm..People who look at the pieta and don't see the transcendental, the metaphysical are blind! Well, that is certainly a resounding and convincing argument, which, by the way sounds very much like the Emperor's new clothes.
Love the thoughts. As an American Baptist here are mine.
The church is the body of believers. Never a building. That said I wish we have better buildings, y'all got some great buildings in Europe.
2. I believe the failure of the European church is having a state church. Yoking the state with the church always MURDERS the church slowly
Excellent! Thanks for this!
Joseph is amazing 💟✝️💟
A building doesn't make a church. People make the church. The building may not be very important in the function of a church. A dedicated building is not essential a church can rent a theatre for example or room.
Amen brother.
The Enlightenment might be a reason, I would suggest the false dilemma between religion and reason only came to the fore long after the era of the philosophes. The later nineteenth century saw a devotional culture aided by inexpensive and high quality printing and manufacture. Yet come the 60s, the bishops and priests in the wake of Vatican 2 seem to denigrate this devotional culture. It matters little that V2 said nothing against the traditional Mass and devotions, but these were pushed aside by priests lusting after novelty. The traditional Mass which gave the poorest a sight of Heaven vanished. The people who encountered this often stayed, but their children departed. The Catholicism of the 70s onwards was something less able to foster devotion. When it was Fr Chris Polyester every Sunday, it was often a easily made choice to opt out.
So the grandness of the churches didn't empty the churches, it just didn't prevent it from happening.... I'm thinking that is a distinction without a difference.
I would go further & say that church culture now demands that believers be irrational. If you are a rational believer, you will rejected & ejected from your church IME. This happenedd to me after more than 30 years serving a church I loved, even decades as an elder. I have a science, engineering education & retired from work as an analyst programmer. But was then forced to leave the church, because I would not engage with stupidity & opposed disfunctional behaviour.
Would you listen to a suggestion from a non-believer? I’d respectfully suggest that, if you want your churches to fill up again to, say, the sort of level they enjoyed when I was a kid, then (amongst various other things, naturally) there one key thing which you can do: think very hard and carefully about why anyone should think that the teachings of your church are TRUE.
I’d suggest that this is more important than making your churches and church services beautiful. It’s even more important than behaving well towards non-members. It’s certainly more important than saying rude things about ‘arrogant’ non-members. Surely, if you can show people that what you teach is TRUE, then everything else is subordinate.
Why are doctors’ surgeries so well attended? For one key reason: people have reason to believe that modern medicine is, by and large, good, true science. Making the surgeries welcoming places is of secondary importance. Harassing people for not coming may, in some cases, do some good - but it’s not the central message. It’s people’s belief in modern medicine that draws them to doctors’ surgeries.
I suggest that the main reason church membership and church attendance have slumped is that people are now sceptical about what the churches teach.
There's truth here but Mr. Stevens illustrates the problem. He instinctively thinks the faith is not true otherwise he'd be in church. Like most he is probably not aware of the evidence and good arguments for Christian belief and why we can trust the Gospels and has probably absorbed the very opposite impression, almost subliminally, from a culture that wants this to be true. The culture doesn't want the faith to be true and so believes this is the case and find reasons or evidences to confirm this bias and then teaches its children this.
I wrote about this above, but we lost the culture a century ago and although the Christian faith passed the test we lost the popular argument in the meantime.
We also have a problem with form. The mass, or any Christian service where the Gospel is proclaimed expresses a faith position - it is not a string of rational arguments for Christian truth claims, so someone walking into church for the first few times would NEVER be exposed to Christian apologetics. In 20 yrs since coming to the faith at Uni, I have never once heard one apologetic argument made in church - never have I heard the reasons for faith ever expounded in a church building - except on an apologetics blog! In fact the form is quite alien and assumes some prior understanding and some kind of priori belief. Counter-intuitively new believers need to do their own searching and seek guidance from places other than the church to receive this intellectual nourishment - Bishop Barron is right on the ball here!
My own faith journey was grounded in the teleological and moral arguments but these weren't ever presented by the Church. I had to read the Case for Christ and the Case for Faith by Lee Strobel first. Then I built up my knoweldge through William Lane Craig and the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics and St. Edmund's college.
@@Maggia1981 I’m sorry to have to point it out brutally, but your first paragraph couldn’t be more wrong. I won’t trouble you with my autobiography, but I have, I’m sure, a very good understanding, developed over several decades, of the arguments and evidence produced by Christian apologists. Also, I would even dare to suggest that my knowledge of the Bible is better than that of the average ‘believer’.
You are employing, without a shred of evidence to support it, a tactic routinely used by Christians: “if you disagree with us, it just means that you are ignorant - you haven’t studied the subject”. Not only is this intellectually dishonest; it’s a sure way to antagonise people!
I’m sorry if this sounds abusive, but it’s one of those cases where plain speaking is the only option. Put yourself in my shoes: what else can I, without prevarication, say to you? But perhaps you weren’t expecting a response from me?
@@willstevens4289 I have now met a Christopher Hitchens sound alike. I say that mostly as a compliment. I have listened to many of his debates, read his books and am an amateur authority. Churches are empty in America, and I suspect Europe as well, because they offer nothing people don't hear regularly on CNN. They bend over backward to be WOKE, relevant and secular. Why get out of bed on Sunday morning, go listen to a person garbed in some silly costume tell us that transgender hippopotami are oppressed and that the world will be better off when one is the Bishop of the diocese. That's why even most liberals don't attend the established church. The church panders in order to gain more attendees. It hasn't worked in Europe and it is failing miserably in the U.S. And, it's a good thing. Pomp and circumstance without the Spirit of God just makes God sick anyway.
"I suggest that the main reason church membership and church attendance have slumped is that people are now skeptical about what the churches teach." I think you are right. Teaching the TRUTH is what is important. Then, let the chips fall where they may.
That may be the most brilliant observation and explanation of the error of the Enlightenment I have ever heard.
In the Bible it says that many will fall away from their faith and to the word Of God,1timothy 1:2to3:4
Having lived and grew up Catholic in 70s and onward we saw that the NO watered down and trivialized the Mass and other things within the faith
Silly acting priests and silly performances called “the mass” NO turned people off and also. Didn’t people on
I attend the TLM- churches are lovely, people dress appropriately and act so in life
TLM are packed
Average TLM mass goer is intelligent and devout
NO destroys art, music and souls
Here we go again - tearing down your fellow Catholics.
So tired of this!!!
Grew up in the Latin Mass - was thrilled when it was gone and we could understand what was being said.
New churches - I think most of the artisans, painters and tradespeople who did the work on the beautiful Old Cathedrals are gone and we now don’t have extraordinary wealthy patrons willing to pay for work like that. Not to mention that the tradespeople who did that work do not exist in great numbers ( if any )
Churches are expensive to build, even the least ornate ones. And the people in the pews spend years raising money in their parishes to build a new building.
There are a few old Cathedrals in the older areas of the city, but think about driving down there in a Canadian winter where there is almost no parking - in lovely clothes that look “ appropriate and modest”
A huge parka and jeans with leggings underneath is appropriate here. If Church would be cancelled because of “ snow days “, there would be almost no mass in the winter. And if you don’t have a vehicle - maybe you could take the bus, lol
Chris Campbell and P J Smith, I think you both have made good points and oddly enough, are both right. There is good in either way. lol.... enjoy your churches and be happy praising God. 💗💗💗💗💗
As a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have FAITH, not a religion, I need no building to pray in, I need only my relationship with God the Father and His only begotten son, and His Holy spirit. God's word is not fully taught in so called churches. Studying His word with a few believers at home is more productive, and you will get the whole picture/essence of what is being taught. When two or more believers are studying and discussing His word, His spirit is present, and guiding you. Many churches are based on non truthful messages and platitudes, not telling what you should expect should you not repent, and change your path. Praying to Mary is not in the Bible, she was Blessed by being chosen to be the vessel, but is not an Icon! We are not to have Icons, we are not to worship statues, it's time the truth of God's Holy word be taught, in full. Before anyone even starts to call themselves a Christian, they must be born again in Christ, repenting their sins, and asking for His Holy spirit to come into our hearts and guide our learning, and living the way we are called to do. We are all sinners, and no one is perfect (like Jesus was and is), but we are called to do our best, to stay faithfull to Him until the end. Blessings and love to you all, in the name of Our King of Kings, The wonderfull and glorious Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.
I still don’t quite get his point. The Enlightenment happened over a century before the USA was founded…yet plenty of American, “ugly” churches are full of awesome Christians serving an awesome God. Why this huge divide?
Nice to see the Liverpool metropolitan cathedral of christ the King in the thumbnail. My daily cathedral.
I forgot or was never told it is a crown, is that right?
@@veronica_._._._ I'm not sure, it certainly looks like it. Although, it's colloquially called paddy's wigwam by the locals.
@@oatypeddler264 Yes l know 😉l just now said on another thread that the Scouse sense of humour is the best in the world bar none! 😂
Seeing a crumbling leadership comes a crumbling church.
There has been infiltration to the Churches.
Many of the services that used to be provided by the church, (education, healing/medicine, social services - therapies, charity, entertainment), are now provided by secular sources so the church is seen as obsolete. 'Successful' churches are culturally relevant - use of pop/rock music, different media, etc. They tend to be evangelical/fundamentalist too.
I would have liked to hear your guest elaborate more on "They fill the vacuum of their ignorance with the arrogance of rationalism" in the context of Creationism vs Evolution. Is he saying 'They" are ignorant because of that which they don't know? Or is he saying "They" are ignorant because of that which they think they know?
Science relies on empirical data whereas religion relies on faith. One is objective and the other subjective.
You really need to research the 'evolution' scam.
Today's 'science', aside from applied techniques, is more philosophy than bona-fide research.
@@johncharleson8733 I totally agree especially concerning anthropological evolution. I have been doing my own research. Thanks. Stay safe.
In my county three new churches have been build and they are anything but ugly. They resemble each other with the gigantic perfectly sculpted wooden beams converging into the center holding the roof up. The stained glass windows are magnificent and the upholstered pews are wonderful, a fountain in the center of one of them is for baptisms. I just recently stopped going to the small county church near my house and now go to one of the new ones. The drive is far but i like the church. So yes, this is coincidental because i just left the old church and am going to the new one now. I live in the old country part of the county where the farms are. There are three mega churches in the county for non denominationals. There are Catholic schools as well but some don't belong to any church anymore. anyone from the county can go to them. Used to be you had to belong to the parish there. There is one very large Catholic school that is independent.
Interesting perspective on the loss of faith in Europe, Joseph Pearce. Too bad there's a false binary between religion and reason. Old Testament refers to need to use reason: Wisdom 17:12-13 (Good News Translation) "Fear is nothing but the failure to use the help that reason gives. When you lack the confidence to rely on reason, you give in to the fears caused by ignorance."
Can someone tell me what he means by "fetus and razzio are indissolubly married". I took the spelling from the subtitles.
A small question I have been asking our Materialist friends is, give me a Materialist explanation for Beauty? From a Materialist/Neo Evolutionist point of view what is the advantage of Beauty?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Aesthetics: beauty, In mammals genetic fitness (symmetry)
In visual terms, it is various elements in a perfect balance, beauty is simultaneously stimulating and restful to behold.
( l could give you 10 more reasons off the top of my head) 😉
In religious terms. Let's try this unusual argument. Beauty could be likened to a litmus test 😂
ln the wicked it will inflame lust or averice or a desire to destroy from envy
In the "would be goods" it will invoke awe, wellbeing and a desire to preserve and create beauty, and an awe in God.
The honest truth is that people have started to see clearly that God can't be contained into aesthetics. The relationship between people and the concept of what church is, has fragmented to become cautious of aesthetic, for it may attempting to sell the spectacle as evidence for holiness. It is an identical criticism to point at Evangelical mega-churches. The lack of people going to church, particularly large established ones isn't a good measure of telling how many Christians there are, it's just not as obvious as counting the congregation.
In addition, the larger the church, the easier it is for compromise and importance of reputation begins to make the truth secondary, considering the state has close watch to make sure it's of approved political doctrine. The smaller the church, the less the state cares.
NICE!
try divorcing the thoughts of relating the building that’s open once a week to the actual body of Christ that is not in a temple fashioned by human hands
So true.
restore catholicism as it's meant to be - not the 1970s version of catholic leftists and baby boomers.
In word...Education
The Government declared UK a secular state. The lawmakers and the establishment that uphold the law have removed God from their deliberations. Society reflects these new values
Great video. It sounds like an amazing guest
I don't understand what he's on about with the rock buried in the ground???
Not just 'in England ' - Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish churches are also emptying ...
So strange he connects the lack of religiosity in Europe with the enlightenment when America was founded by enlightenment values. I'm not fully in disagreement but there has to be something in addition to it for explanation.
Actually many of the first colonies and settlements were founded on Christian principles and values. The Puritans in New England, The Quakers in Pennsylvania, The Catholics in Maryland, and the Spanish Catholic Missions in the West and Southwest are just a few examples so the bedrock of religiosity was laid early. The Founding Fathers of The Republic based the political system on the ideas of the Enlightenment, in particular John Locke, but even most of them had deep religious convictions. A certain amount of revisionist history has taken hold that downplays the role Christianity played in the founding and elevated the influence of the Enlightenment. They were both important to the birth of our nation. One of the reasons the British and Dutch colonies succeeded where other powers like France and Spain failed was people came here to have religious freedom and make permanent settlements based on their faith instead of just looking for riches or evangelizing to the natives. Anyway, that's part of it. It's why we are still one of the most religious countries in the world, even though some faiths have been led astray but that is a conversation for another topic. Sorry if this post was a bit long but that is my take on it.
@@itinerantpatriot1196 I would not say that France and Spain were failed colonizers. France had established colonies, they just lost a war in Canada to England and later also sold land to the US, minimizing their presence. And Spain was the most successful of all countries. Their language is the number one spoken in the new world, and they created a new people by integrating with the natives. A lot of south American countries have cities that look like Europe with stone buildings and cobblestone streets. Also the Enlightenment itself was not anti religious at first but it definitely seems to have evolved into that. I would like to see how religious Europe was compared to the US over time to see when they seemed to become less so. Then examine what events/politics ect are occurring at that time that we can connect to the drop.
@@schadenfreude191 It's true Spain and France had colonies in other parts of the America's. I was referring to the U.S. only. That said, most of the colonies established by those other powers maintained more of an imperial style of administration based on Mercantilist principles, especially in the Spanish settlements. And I agree not all Enlightenment philosophy was anti-religious but some was. This was especially true in the case of the French Revolution. My point was, there has been a tendency over the past few decades to downplay the role faith played in the founding of our nation and elevate the Enlightenment to a more prominent position. The Great Awakening is a good example. It is barely mentioned when the Revolution is discussed but it played a key role in priming the pump so to speak prior to 1776. It's similar to what happened with slavery and teaching of the Civil War. Over time, the myth of The Lost Cause took root and states rights became the lens through which the Civil War was taught for a long period. I guess what I'm saying is, we have a deep tradition of religious freedom and have, until recently, put stock in providence. I think that is why faith plays a more prominent role in our culture but that is shifting here as well. The church is in crisis and needs to address it before we go the way of Europe.
You make some very good points and I agree with much of what you say. Thank you for a nice civil discussion on the matter.
@@itinerantpatriot1196 for sure brother. It's an interesting topic
@@itinerantpatriot1196 The enlightenment was based on the two poles of Hermeticism and Proto science. It is this Hermeticism, although practiced by some elite Christians at the time, in all sincerity, (looking at you Mr Newton) that is antithetical to Faith.
Man is the measure of all things?
As above so below!
Science is funded by the modern heirs of Hermeticism & gnosticism, (same goals) "Man will become a god" Bhagwan - Eastern mysticism etc, Man will help God by co-creating, because God had a "little accident"( the shells) -Kaballah and so on.
Its all very head swelling and brings with it a euphoric psychotic certainty.
When asking why churches are emptying, Catholic spokespeople never look inward and say "because many of the Church's teachings and official actions are irrational/indefensible." I refer to teachings on homosexuality and contraception (intrinsically disordered?), women priests (unable to mirror Christ's masculinity?), remarried divorced people barred from communion (because they're living in sin?), excommunication of women who have abortions, etc etc etc.
If you actually knew the faith, not to mention a bit of history and sociology, you wouldn't question the Church's rational.
@@johncharleson8733 You nicely illustrate the precise point that I was making: that what you call "the Church's rational" is inviolable. There is no room for genuine introspection or movement. If I disagree with what you regard as an immutable teaching, you assume (without really knowing anything about me) that I am ill informed about the theology, history and sociology.
I am reminded of a Shirly McLean TV interview in the 1970s, soon after China had opened up to the West. She reported on an interaction she had with a Chinese official on art in China. She asked him what would happen if an artist produced work that was critical of the Communist regime. "We would teach the artist the philosophy of Marx and prove to him that the Communist Party is right." [He meant, of course, that the artist would be sent to one of their infamous "re-education camps".] But she pressed him -- what if the artist would still insist on depicting anti-communist art? "We would give him further education," was the response. And so it went on. The official just could not countenance the possibility that his beloved communist party could ever be wrong.
Think it possible that I am not ill-informed about the Church's rational and teachings; that I love and care about the Church. The words of GK Chesterton come to mind: "Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.”
@@DK-tk1nu All reverence is gone, the priest at TLM was an anonymous faceless priest. All you noticed was the vestments and the gestures.
Jesus was foregrounded.
Now he's a self conscious man, a performer, the star of the show, he needs props, gimmicks, guitars, microphones, and frankly, annoying lay people in horrendous technicolour satin costumes.
There is no reverence
Where is the sacred space now?
Where are the silences?
I noticed that the speaker mentioned nothing about faith, the gospel, obedience to God's word, or prayer. When the church recaptures that then they will fill their churches.
Yeah but he analysed the problem well from a cultural point of view. In a short interview such as this it is not always easy to preach a gospel sermon as well as address all the issues…
I go to a church that gets at least 300 at 8:00. We believe the Bible word for word and people flock to the Church. There are two stories that I come across as I get to know people. One story is that the old church wasn't "cutting it," be it Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc, They feel that the Bible was being edited by these Churches to meet the "changing times " or to put it another way, God on my terms instead of God on God's terms. The other story is one of recovery. People who led a life of drugs and crime and have reformed themselves because of the Church.
People want to know what is in the Bible and how to lead a Christian life. Our Church does not believe that Women should be in leadership positions, yet the place is teeming with Women. We have more women, and for that matter children, than my old Episcopalian Church had members.
there is no passing the plate for an offering, only a box in the back where people donate. All debts are paid off and we have $3 million in the bank. The Paster sits on a stool and reads the Bible verse by verse and discusses it with us. That's it.
There is a thirst for religion, but not the edited feel good "everyone goes to heaven" type.
Wow! Interesting architecture on your title frame. When did that thing land, and were the aliens friendly?
Liverpool, England, and the local Catholics call it "Paddies Wigwam", they are mostly of Irish descent and so "allowed",😂 Its a theme bte the City Centre market is referred to as Paddies Market
The inside at least has the benefit of the light thru the stained glass. But the sheer amount of concrete is intrusive it feels like a Community Centre, Cost the Church quite a bundle and is next to a Gothic style Anglican cathedral, which however was built by masons in the C19th.
If you ever have the chance to visit this fascinating city the locals are friendly, very proud of their heritage and will eagerly point you too all the landmarks. Best sense of humour too.
When I listened to this guys story I laughed because of all the christian metaphors I have heard his was about the LAMEST, and it made me think he has ROCKS in his HEAD!! Couldn't a person who viewed Michelangelo's Pieta just be awed because it's an awesome piece of art?
In the West we have swallowed wholesale secularism and the diabolical temptation that this life is everything. Shrivelled spiritual knowledge. The speaker is absolutely spot on.
Evermore atheism is of course an important reason. However, I would wager that a large majority of Brits still believe that some kind of supreme being is responsible for their existence. The problem our established Churches have is that in an effort to be all things to all men, they have ended up being of little or no relevance to any. Many people both need and like being told what to do and how to think, as we have clearly witnessed over the last two years in particular. Those that don't, like myself, don't need to go to church, as they will seek their own path to their creator, and will assist others in doing so.
I speak as an ordained minister.
We don't need faith, we need knowledge. The knowledge of the Laws of Creation. This material reality has LAWS, which we disobey at our own peril. This is what The Bible and the Story of Jesus tell us. It matters not whether all of the Bible actually happened, 75%, 50%,10%, or indeed virtually none of it, for all of it is TRUE in the sense of the knowledge and understanding it imparts to us. The Bible in common with most other religious texts is derived from the knowledge of all ages. They are a series of anecdotes, and fables designed to impart knowledge to the masses, in a form that they will understand and remember so be able to pass on to future generations mainly by word of mouth.
What man has done in his arrogance and for his own profit is taken this wisdom and formed a highly profitable and incredibly powerful business out of it. Now that the business model has become passe, and the profits long since invested in the markets, the Established Church is left with a lot of nice buildings and valuable property, and little else, least of all any credibility or useful function.
Try reading the quran
the ratio et fides explanation may hold some water but my point is the catholic pews are empty because the beautiful treasures - classic example is the role of gregorian chant in liturgy - of our universal church have been disregarded; the clergy have a large responsibility to bear as robert cardinal sarah argues in his trilogy; the scandal of predatory paedophiles has left a sickening stench across our church that has yet to be reckoned for in terms of acknowledgement and reform at every level of clergy; but you are correct in saying that reason has in the non catholic circles concocted the pharisaic simony based option seem more alluring to the gullible convert disinterested in the metaphysics of grace and all things catholic.
So he believes in 2000 year old mythology. Then he tries to rationalise it by saying that non-believers don't understand it or are ignorant.
I am disappointed that the two Biblically grounded Christians use the word 'church' for a building. ('Empty churches'). Isn't church believers? If these two men are so uncritical with this basic word, how Biblical is there other thinking?
Title is mistaken, Pearce not pierce
Brilliant
I lived in Ireland for almost 11 years between 2 churches not a sign of a Bishop or Cardinal. Priests reading a bit of Scripture obvious they never studied it.
Teaching children Catechism at school stuff like the Beatitutes, gifts of the Spirit, Corporal works of Mercy etc then never hearing it again from the pulpits Catholics are fooled by Cardinals, Priests, Bishops that don't teach Scripture but take the credit. There is no preaching of Scripture in Catholisism.
Many are converting to Protestant Faith and Islam.
The Catholic Church can't preach and is failing miserably. Fake apparitions and useless Bishops never seen in Churches.
What are the Bishops doing if they are not visiting the churches? In Australia, I lived in a small town and saw the Bishop of the diocese all the time. We even had Cardinal Pell visit once.
@@edmund7290 Yes in Australia but not in Ireland In Ireland the Chief Rabbi gave the blessing at all major events . Believe you me I lived in Ireland and brought it up in conversations. One Bishop was discovered married and working for a firm in America.
I know about Australia too as I worked in Sydney for Meriton Properties I loved the Latin Choir in St Mary's Cathedral.
That's the Liverpool Cathedral. Its so ugly. I used to walked pass it almost daily
Inside is almost as bad.
For there is one God , and one mediator between God and men , the man Christ Jesus . (1st Timothy 2-5).
I pray in the name of Jesus that all of you traditionally deceived Catholics receive this truth , and stop praying to Mary , or any former saints . Gods Word clearly tells us to never pray to the dead . Christ Jesus is our mediator, no one else ! Love you all !
10% of your income for corrupt dude?
Nah.... I'll pass
Has it got anything to do with rationalism as such or religion as such? Isn't it more to do with powerful individuals who used the Church to suppress and stigmatize rational inquiry? For example, both Galileo and Darwin were violently opposed and persecuted in their own day. A later generation of Christians can say: "oh no, we accept that." But in a way, the damage is done. Why would it be strange (or even unjust) for today's people to stigmatize religion or metaphysics in the name of rationalism, when the Church and metaphysics stigmatized rational inquiry by yesterday's people in the name of superstition?
Have you checked the spelling of his name?
Who cares about fancy buildings? Let people br in awe of God, not our expensive architecture.
No worry the mosques are not empty!!
The answer as to why the churches are empty in England is as close as 19th century London history. Charles Spurgeon, a small, weak man with a fragile psyche, unashamedly proclaimed the Gospel and people came by the thousands to hear it.
Like the Latin Mass.