Weird Subaru MISFIRE After Engine Swap? (2.5 SOHC)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2024
- Owner of this 2008 Subaru Legacy says that he can't figure out why the replacement engine is MISFIRING on cylinder 4.
He already tried a different injector, coil, and plug, with no change.
From the driver's seat we can instantly tell that it's a COMPRESSION problem, but WHERE IS THE LEAK?
And can we fix this Subaru "NPR" without buying any extra parts?
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Ivan
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
You're going to be the world's foremost expert on valves by the end of this year.
I wonder if its something in the fuel
For his area. I have a really hard time believing that all these burnt valves are a coincidence
Only exhausts, not inlets lol.
@@JackS425 the valve problems aren't caused by the area, it's all the valve problems in the area that gravitate to him being one of the few that will guarantee diags and repair without charging crazy dealer fees.
@@TheBry_Guy that's a good point... Don't know of any other shops that actually repair internal engine mechanical issues... They just swap them lol
Hah I am running out of room on the shelf of shame with the growing bad valve collection 😂
Was a budget repair on an old car. Did as little and as much as necessary. Good job Ivan.
That starter crank bolt trick was around a long time ago. We used to do that in 1973 when I worked at Subaru dealer. They had valve guide and rocker arm shaft issues way back then. I still have the tool to drive guides in from fifty years ago. Hadn’t had to do one in forty years because they also had severe rust issues as well back then 😳
IVAN,
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Your caps lock is on.
Looking at all those bubbles on them valve's when lightly blowing air in the ports I think I would be doing a valve lap job at least? On the head off the original engine
Ivan, What differentiates you from many is it obvious that you are always watching, asking questions and paying attention. You have gained a tremendous amount of insight as you not only diagnose but also do the physical repairs. I appreciate your approach to these issues.
I leak test with gasoline on heads and boat exhaust manifolds , correct flatness with sandpaper, lap on a granite plate on the cheap, I use 12" x 18" self stick paper on scrap granite from granite counter shop or import surface plate.
Chuck the valve onto a drill or drill press. You should see a wobble.
One thing you did not factor in was weak valve springs I'll feel it is good idea to redo all the valve seat and face of the valve the right way.
Great to watch the diagnosing of various problems from different cars, some of the repairs are questionable at times but then he’s doing the repairs as cheap as he can for his customers.
When trying to keep cost low experimentation is necessary. Results are often surprisingly good. Obviously it will come with higher risk of comeback but I believe it is worth it.
Price vs performance. If it gets the job done to last another 2-3 years versus buying a new car it's a win. Otherwise many of these cars would be in the junk yard.
The white dots on the cam pulleys are "close" to the timing mark cast into the pulley, but can be a full tooth or more away. Use the dots to locate the mark, and the mark to index the belt & pulley. I found removing the lowest toothed idler makes it easy to get the belt back in position, and then roll that toothed pulley into position & get the bolt into it.
Don't bother trying, he is a hack when it comes to actual repairs.
One way to check how flat the cylinder head is, is to apply some bearing blue to the surface of the head, all the way around and then bolt it up to the block (with no head gasket installed). Torque it up to about 30ft-lbs in correct sequence. Undo and remove the head. Check to see if the blue has transferred evenly and properly onto the block.
You can also have valves 'kiss' the head if the engine was overrevved. Like on a downshift going down hill.
It could have had valve float which means the valves could still have been slightly open when the piston was already at TDC. A broken cambelt usually causes way more damage.
Nice vid quick tip you can just put petrol in the valve port directly and you will see it leak out straight away without blowing air
I guess there's no machine shop around? The head you put on needed six of eight valves reconditioned (which really means all of them needed to be redone) and the head resurfaced for flatness.
Definitely a budget repair, valves & seats needed cleaned & lapped, or even replaced if bent or had low margins.
Yup, what I said on his previous videos, these really are extreme budget repairs, this one needed a full head job. And you can't resurface just one side of a OHC head of it's bent, the bend will also be on the cam side and after resurfacing and torquing the head on the cam will bind in the cam bearings and destroy it. It can usually be done by straightening or by resurfacing both sides of the head so they're in plane. Which adds to the expense and time.
And a 100,000 miles later, you guys will still be saying, "it's going to fail any minute now"! Lmao!
Yes most definitely all 8 should have been done 👍
@@rcf8367 Agree, but even on a budget there's no reason to skimp when new parts are this cheap---on Rock Auto new no-name valves are less than $4 each. The best ones are a lot more but a whole set of 8 Melling valves would be around $150.
We need to get you a lift of some kind to save your back! That and a decent workbench. Love your content, thanks!
Subaru started out as an aircraft engine manufacturer. A typical aircraft engine back then was designed to run at 100% power (good) but the average fighter plane was shot down after under 200 hours. So the engines did not have to be very long-lived. Unfortunately that design ethos may still be partly in play.
The older smaller displacement EJ22s seem to have a VERY good reputation for running up to 200-300k miles, by which point the Subaru that it’s in is typically Swiss cheese up north. The North-American market specific EJ25s seem to have started the whole decade long head gasket fiasco, and the newer motors suffer from mpg-focused “improvements” in the form of low tension piston rings and water-thin oil.
Just after 7:51 on the borescope views there seems to be a line across the valve seat, I was thinking it was a cracked valve seat. Was anything seen there after you got the head off?
Saw that and thought the same as well
Great video. It sounds perfect. We have close friends in Vermont who just purchased a new Subaru. After their last two foresters blew one of their head gaskets.
The valve train and cams were very clean on both the heads, No gunk or gunge. It looks like the original engine and the auction engine were maintained as far as oil replacement goes.
I agree with one of the other posters, blowing compressed air from the outlet side probably was not the best way of checking if the valves were perfectly sealed. They are designed to seal the cylinder from leaking out, not having air being blown in from the outlet side. If a lot of air was passing trough, then yes, it may indicate an issue. In your case it was very minor air passing through in the reverse direction.
My son in law is a Subaru nut and puts big turbos on them for competition racing. He told me you had to limit the boost or fit heavier valve springs as the inlet valves can be pushed off their seats if the intake manifold pressure is too high. That sort of makes sense with what was suggested using compressed air around and against the rear of the valve.
That valve gap/misalignment was the true indicator of a bent valve
A leak in either direction is not desirable, especially when the reverse air is able to spread out and it's not at the higher compression levels.
Im having the mysterious p302 on my 08 Subaru Outback XT Turbo i have been through the coil pack, injector, and still getting the check engine light when accelerating. I'm doing a compression test after watching this! Thanks for the info!
I learned the breaker bar starter trick about forty five years ago. Another great video. Thank you very much.
What causes a bent valve? Bent valves occur when the piston makes contact with the valves. This causes the valve to be no longer able to seal the cylinder correctly. Many engines are interference engines, meaning the piston travels upward beyond the lowest point that the valves travel downward during normal operation.
They say the magic for any company is their book of lessons learned (LEARNED, not just experienced). You, Ivan, are an encyclopedia!
I know how you feel about all these valve problems. I wonder if the valve guides are just slap worn out on that Subaru head? I'd love to see a tear down of it if you can, please. Oh, and thanks for at least checking on the intake valves. Makes me so happy to see a more thorough inspection. Loved that little poke about the lesson learned with the Volvo. I had to learn the hard way too.
Great diagnoses and work Ivan 😊👍
Just curious why wouldn't you lap the old valves just to make sure they're getting a good seat since you have the head off
Guy over the road was trying do undo his crank bolt but no matter how hard he pulled on the hand brake and had it in gear the car kept rolling forward.
He had it in first gear so I told him to put in in overdrive instead and bingo off it came. That’s the problem when you think of first gear being the lowest but coming at it from the wrong direction.
Would it have been that hard to lap the valves?
Customer said just get rid of the misfire cheapest way possible... runs nice and smooth so good to go :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ah, the Captain Bligh scenario. "Aye, aye, Captain Bligh!" 😁
The bent valve might have been caused when the last person did cylinder head gaskets. On the engines that have the variable lift if you are not careful when installing the rockers you can trap a valve and bend the stem. Last engine i rebuilt had several bent valves when I went to replace the valve seals.
Valve Lapping needs or could to be done in order to re-seat the valves after inspection to see how much pitting on the valve and the head there is..
Hi Ivan,I like this type of video where you show everything.Your testing method on the valves! he's my view,while i believe the replacement head will work and may last a long time.IN the past when i did valve repairs for people with little money,i found testing like you showed won't give you the full story.Here's why>New grinding of say a 3 angle valve job gives you a .062 -.082 Contact from the valve to the seat.Old worn in seats are a lot wider,sometimes .100-.125 from my experience.The wider the seat, the faster the heat transfer.but the seal may not as good .That's why you got the air leakage on your test.Also the compression pressure HELPS to seal the seat.A better way to test used heads is to fill the camber will water and look inside the ports for leaks.Just saying this so people don't freak out when they test using AIR pressure,method. And i hope this gets guys learning how to repair -the incentive to read on how stuff works,so they can learn why you test the way you do.In this case the camera was not able to pick up the problem,but the leak-down test kept pointing to the exhaust valves.Hense you HAD to remove the head,which is a great lesson on confirmation of leak.
I'd reinstall the old head but after lapping the valves. Easy enough to take them out and lap them in
Ivan, do you ever get a customer that has enough money for you to do a proper repair? It seems most of your customers want the Russian roulette repair, where it could go 1000 or 50000 miles. Place your bets on this one.
yeah.... place your bets!!
Judging by all the cars coming to him with empty gas tanks and dead batteries… take a guess lol
I've seen the valve guide problem. Whenever I take the heads off or am rebuilding one I have GSC "stopper" guides installed by machine shop. That keeps them from ever migrating again.
Learn to say no!!!! These "hero" repairs are going to cause problems down the road. It's awesome to help out people and get them back up and running, but it can also ed up costing you your reputation.
Another straightforward diagnosis and repair
Mechanics who doing an engine out on one of these Subaru engines, should do the due diligence of checking the valves. After pulling engines the gaskets etc to are minor, all values closed compression probably also should be done while the engine is out of the car. I would probably pull the heads and remove all the carbon crust on the valves and pistons using some solvent and plastic brush and do a visual.
What a shock. It wasn't a head gasket? What's always pissed me off about Subaru, other than Mr. Subaru who I consider to be a clown, is that they knew they had a problem. Knew how to fix the problem using an MLS head gasket which they did on the WRX, and continued to use the same shit head gaskets on their non-turbocharged cars. Why Subaru has such a cult following is a mystery to me. I give you max credit for being able to take the head off in the car. Everybody I know pulls the engine, which isn't that hard on a Subaru, to do the heads. I loved your precision machinist straight edge 2X4 that looked like it was cut with an axe.
Well done sure.
You did mention the sonar vehicle was in a accident.
SOHC EJ engines, especially ones with miles, can jump time by a tooth. We saw a ton of that back in the day.
The interference of the piston to valve design is tight, and if a piston kisses a valve you won’t even see a nick on the piston face.
With all the valve work you find I’m shocked you haven’t shipped for a walnut blaster, seen some good deals on the jungle site for $400.
Again good job
it was a beautiful sound when you started it after the work was done.
Pour water in the port and watch for drips at the valves then rap the valve tips with a small hammer to clear any debris and refill to recheck. Then set it in the sun to dry.
When doing these heads (I've done countless) I un bolt the engine mounts and just push the engine all the way to one side, only thing you need to be mindful of are the inner axle boots... Sometimes the tulip will pull out... I've done so many of these I would just automatically take the extra 15min pull the axles... So easy. And as for getting the heads back on I pull the head bolts half way out (or just enough) use a rubber band wrapped around the bolt heads to keep them in place...easy peasy.
Great tips! Yup engine lift and shift to the side is mandatory 👍
YA, Turbo's make a HUGE DIFFERENCE IN PERFORMANCE, HUGE.
I remember back in the early 80's all the rage was the Mustang GT 5.0. Then this kid bought a Mustang 4 CYL. with a Turbo & was CLEANING HOUSE WITH IT.
These were all STOCK ENGINES, NOT MODIFIED AT ALL. Well maybe exhaust mods. some had.
Mine smokes a little, and there is a misfire on 3/4 looked like there wires where swapped
Ivan you can put water on the top and shoot some air
Another PHAD rescue! Thanks Ivan.
I used to own a850T5 estate station wagon to youa big bucket but boy could it shift
Starter bump was definitely thinking outside the box!
I have done that quite a few times, and it works. I also have heated the head of the bolt with oxygen/acetaline. Heat gets down the bolt and it comes off.
It's an old shade-tree practice. But check which way the crank spins first! On a Honda F22 it will only tighten the crank bolt.
Been doing it since the 60's. Yes I'm an old fart!
Wow! What are the odds of getting so many valve issues in a row? Great that you had the old head to replace (equally warped, of course). Maybe it's just me, but it seemed like too much leakage on the "good valves". Possibly a regrind would cure the problem, but would customer pay for it? The car seems to run fine, nevertheless 🙂 Good job, Ivan!
a machine shop skim cut on head and pressure test is cheap insurance a wire wheel on a drill does a nice job on valve face
an in the car head job, not having head machined and only doing 1 side. this car will be back with a blown headgasket in the not to distant future. NA EJ25s are notorious for headgasket issues and judging by the oil all over the bottom on the engine they where already failing. this was a shadetree hack job
The side that I worked on no longer leaks with a new upgraded MLS gasket 😆👍
For right now.
while not advisable, with the old single layer gasket you could often get away with just a quick clean with a white 3m bristle disk, but the MLS Turbo gaskets need a pristine surface. the old single layer gaskets generally just leak oil, but when an MLS fails it will push coolant into the overflow and overheat. doing Subaru headgaskets in the car is not a good idea. it literally take 45 minutes tops to pull the engine and put it on a stand where you can clean and torque everything properly.
@Ivan - K, oaused at 3:15; no visible signs; valve springs (mushed-down), worn cam lobe, carbon build-up?
Ivan, great job! That car sounds like a new one! I bet you saved that customer a lot of money with some common sense and knowing what you were doing. Thanks for Sharing! 🙂
I like Subaru’s , but probably has something to do with all the snow we get.. We got over 4ft in 24hrs this past winter.. the Forester was pushing snow up the hood ! I’m on my second Subaru , only issue has been leaky head gaskets , dripping a bit of oil.. 1 litre in 4,500 miles.. so no big deal.
Wow, I wonder what happened to the valve to bend it like that. Good fix!
maybe it threw a timing belt earlier or was over-reved at some point.
I wouldn’t trust that compressed air test just because the way the valves are designed to see old is from the inside going out not the outside going in so much so compressed air might be more easily able to find a way through from the backside.
Then, again, that being said, I can’t say I’ve ever seen that either
Why wasn't the motor tested before it was switched out?
I thought he bought a whole wreck car at the auction 1:08 ?
Or was it a junkyard motor that was on a auction site like Ebay?
If I remember right the cylinder #4 is often the first cylinder that fails.
I didn't realize that Subaru fitted a timing belt to the EJ25 engine because I thought that they went to the timing chain setup in 2005.
I'd say it.snapped a timing belt & bent a valve at one stage,my brother bought a 2000 model Subaru Forester which had that issue so the owner got the cylinder heads repaired & sold it to him,it runs the EJ20J engine.
But then he ran it on LP gas which caused it to drop a valve so my cousin's partner whose a Subaru trained mechanic rebuilt the cylinder heads or got them rebuilt at a cylinder head repair shop for $3500 AUD including new valves, valve seats, valve springs, valve stem oil seals,etc at almost cost price !
Timing belt was around until 2012 on the 2.5 H4...
At the 14:34 mark "Learned my lesson from the Volvo!". That is as funny as it is apropos and shows that Ivan has a sense of humor and is good natured. Kudos! Good tip with the WD40.
In the Uk we are getting similar things due to them changing the Fuel , burning valves on older cars
Very interesting. What did they change about the fuel?
@Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics they have changed the ethanol mixture the fuel,so we are see a lot of problems with valves and fuel lines rotting out
@@deniscudahy4549 Had the same problem in this country when we made the switch to Ethanol added fuels.
Old school: always did a full head job...
I would have removed all the valves re-seated them & then put the head back on. I you use a cordless drill on the end of the valves (after putting grinding paste on the lip) & grind to your heart desire or until they seat makes the job easy & guarenteed to seal.Cheers Ivan the valve man.(your new handle LOL).As always great content thank you.
I wonder if it's just really weak valve springs?
If it were my own car, I'd go ahead and lap all the valves in since you have it apart. But I can understand that being a lot of labor for a customer.
Not good! Should do better, ALL those valves are leaking.......
You have to take the age of the car into consideration. This repair will probably last the life of the vehicle.
I have a 2005 legacy 2.5 boxer engine. 5 speed, and I was shifting to 2nd, felt something strange in the clutch pedal, so I put it back in 1st, released the clutch and it sounded like & felt like I put it in reverse & dumped the clutch, BOOM BOOM CLANK CLANK, is what I heard & felt. The car hasn't moved under it's own power since. Any idea what it might be.?new clutch and all that. New clutch fork, throw out ect.
That's a good trick to loosen a crankshaft bolt. Scottie gets a cookie. Would it have been easier to remove the engine before attempting the repair? @ 13:00 to 13:35 I saw all 4 valves leaking air.
I wonder if someone doing a timing belt job could have bent the valves while turning the cam to align the timing marks. When replacing a belt on a four cylinder I always leave the crank 90 deg BTDC to have all the pistons mid travel to clear the valves if I have to adjust cam timing for any reason. Put the cams in time then turn crank to TDC last.
While you had the head off, was there any way that you could have put some grinding compound on the valves to make them seat better?
Curious, why not just lap the valves on this head?
Just curious, any overheat conditions on the Subaru? Bad overheat and snow or water on the head might cause stress and warping of casting...
I am going to Andersonville, Georgia this weekend. I hope the ol' Mercury doesn't burn valves; I might need to come and see you. Seems like your wife mentioned she would like to have a Subaru. Great video!
My wife wants a Maserati HAHAHA
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'm sure you will politely tell her that isn't wise.
The wd40 test made the original intake valves look leaky. A bent valve should leave a mark on the piston or the seat unless it came from somewhere else. Nice diag and repair to get it running.
Why check the valve sealing on the replacement head but not lap in the leaking ones?
Time and money? It's a business, not a hobby.
Always bothers me - when doing valve lash check, after verifying that a gage within spec slides in, why not attempt to slide in the gage one too large out of spec?
Then it can be verified that the lash is not too loose
i hd 3 subarus and booyyy problems all the time baja turbo impreza and outback good cars for snow but no bueno on maintenance now a have my acura rdx with 230k miles still running strong no problemos
Sudden engine stop in wreck?
The owner of that Subaru, should take the other good head off old engine, the head with bad valves, and get them cleaned and machined. Have two perfect copies on hand. I would.
Thanks for sharing your expertise .
i see neway valve seat cutter kit if this keeps up.
At 8:00, the seat looks to have two shades of gray/black across the seat - could be cracked there.
lol who would have thought 2023 would bring an epidemic of busted valves to PHAD? Still enjoying the content!
For the leakage test Id rather put the fluid in from the other side and just watch if some leaks through. The compressed air might have enough power to push the valves a bit open.
Not even close. That both heads had leaky valves that needed reseating.
@@mikemurphy7519 Agreed, there is no way using a blow gun like that should lift a valve enough to let air come out. Those valves are all leaking and only a matter of time before the next miss.
is there carbon building on the valve stems and stopping it fully seating
I’ve had to do that same trick on the crankshaft bolt. If you have the valve covers off for any reason, is it a good idea to check backlash, or only if there is some underlying symptom?
Nice and quick checks from experience that counts and learned from the Volvo job! Do them all valves lol. I didn't see you lap them or put them in!? Haha. It's great thing you got the old heads from the old motor! Excellent video, Ivan!
The first Subaru head job I did was with the engine in the car and I swore to myself I will never do that again it's too easy to get the motor out you're 95% there to get the motor out of the car to do the head gaskets.
I have a 2009 Subaru XT after running for a while to check engine light comes back on with the p0021 followed by p0011 need help anything let me know thank you
I think the #1 moral of this story is: If you're going to do an Engine Swap then at the minimum while the replacement engine is out in the open then do a leak down test on all the cylinders and if the engine has mechanical valve lash adjustments then check and adjust the lash before you install it.
I don't know if the owner could afford it, but I would have suggested a valve job for the replacement head before installing it on the engine in the vehicle.
It would have been nice to try and see if the replacement engine ran decently before pulling it out of a donor car. But all of the "what if" circumstances are just that. Pulling valve covers, heads, oil pans is just costing $ and time to reseal the stuff.
I have put hundreds of used engines and transmissions in cars over the years. All came from salvage yards with a 30-90 parts only warranty. You cross your fingers and hope you got a good one. To this date I have gotten 1 bad engine and 1 bad transmission. I got to eat the labor.
@@mph5896 If you swap engines for a living I could see that the risk/reward formula would bend toward your plan, but the DIYer doing a one time swap of the engine for their personal vehicle should really take the time to make sure the engine they're installing is in good shape unless they've have money just lying around that they don't mind paying Ivan, or someone like him (assuming they can even find an Ivan) to figure out what is wrong with the engine they just installed.
So, since the replaced head had leaking exhaust valves, how long before the same problem returns?
Always intertaining, thank you
I’ll have to add warped heads to the saying, “Oil consumption. Its what makes a Subaru a Subaru.”
@1:16
Rxactly why I will never attenpt a used engine in any of my vehicles.
Whenever I will need to rebuild existing engines of mine, I will get a remanufactured one.
I didn’t understand why you don’t send every head you pull off for a valve job? If you had done this with the Volvo the customer would get a better result! Cost $100 here in Texas for a valve job, it’s cheap insurance, find a machine shop😊
$100?? Maybe I should ship my heads to Texas 😄👍
I don't know about where Ivan is but a single Subaru head job in lower eastern pa is 200-300
$200 to $300 is nothing if you have to take the engine apart a second time due to it not being fixed the first time. Buy once cry once.
@@madmike214 that's how much I would charge just for 2 round trips to bring the head to the machine shop 😆
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics that's because you live in the sticks 😆 I'm a few miles away from a machine shop but they are pricy...they wanted 4500 to rebuild my 4.3 for my van that has a ring issue on cylinder 1, I experimented with rislone oil additive stuff and it actually worked 😆 scored wall and all...misfire virtually gone.... I might still pull the head back off and replace the rings and hone that cylinder just to try it... Can has 330k on it
It looked like both heads had exhaust valve leaks. Oh well, he'll be back with one or the other that have valve leaks or more.
"Can someone tell me why those exhaust valves are not sealing?" 7:00
Sure. It is a Subaru.
LMAO 😂
It's crazy how they went from horrible build quality and awful gas mileage to some of the most reliable and best in class gas mileage for an AWD vehicle. My crosstrek has been nothing but amazing since new.
@@amdstrollo3074 😂 found the "Biden voter"
@@amdstrollo3074 😂 found the "Biden voter"
I'm curious. Where did you get your training? Was it dealership work?
Ivan, I am watching you check the valves with the compressed air, and laughing out loud. I don't think a Subaru is in my future. Ever.
Man you are burning a trail of smoke I'm getting tired just watching you 😂😂 Awesome video!!