I remember years ago my father -in-law chasing an electrical problem in his Chrysler. He was an electrical engineer, so of course he over thought the problem. Issue: When he stepped on the brake, the dome light came on. Solution: The brake light switch was broken and he had no brake lights. Chrysler wired it so the dome light would warn you. That took 3 weekends with a multimeter to figure out. Yes, it was in the owner's manual.
OEM default strategies are crazy. I picked up a 2008 Miata with 311K, that was advertised needing a transmission(auto). The car started and drove fine, but at least once on a drive, the car would rev up going into 4th gear, and then not shift past that. You could turn the car off and restart, it would go back to shifting normal. No CEL. I drove it for awhile like it was, as I had other projects. One day I was driving it, it did its thing and the CEL popped on. The code was for a knock sensor. I remembered Ivan's video about the Mazda 3 that was stuck in third and had a bad knock sensor. I figured what the heck, put a knock sensor on the car(not a fun job). The car has been shifting fine for 6 months after. I was so close to putting a transmission in it, and would have had the same problem. Wild. Great videos as always.
I know Subaru disables cruise control for a MIL even something as silly as an evap code. Never knew that they had this strategy built in for the ABS problem...Great diagnosis Ivan. Thanks bud..
OEM is the magic word as always. Don't use cheap aftermarket parts. Ivan shows us this all the time. Cheap parts give you an expensive repair. Great job , Ivan.
I have seen some BIZARRE strategies out of BMW in the same fashion, completely unrelated module causing a designed fault in another one. Or door handles causing ABS problems. I love it, I think it's quirky and I think it sets you apart the more and more quirks you learn. Telling somebody that rain makes your airbag light turn on is fun and makes the shop more known as "Those are the guys you want to go to"
There are a lot of strange issues that are injected into the cars that were added just to give a distinct error for the test drivers during development and then left "as is" in production. Enabling the cooling fans is to some extent making sense - make the driver annoyed so the car is brought to the workshop to be fixed.
@@ehsnils I never thought of that. I have noted one DME in particular that a completely regular function in all other DMEs was omitted I believe on accident. There is leaked tools out there that were used in production of said DMEs you can use, and the function exists on the engineering side but not on the consumer or repair side.
So far I have come across different types of problems related to the ABS sensor and wheel speed parameters, such as the magnetic bearings being installed in the opposite direction, the trigger being hit on the drive shaft, the holding spring being placed in front of the tip of the sensor, but your experience today is a new one. Thank you for sharing your experience
We've all gotten the "ever since" customers but wow.. this time the customer was correct!! Ever since you changed my steering knuckle, my fans won't shut off!
Wow, this is mind blowing. It also underscores how car manufacturers can covertly stick it to the customer and the independent mechanics with sabotage software. Thanks for the education, Ivan
Crazy problem, Ivan! I would first suspect a temperature sensor input high, commanding the fans on. ABS fault may make the car think it's stopped and may need further cooling. The reality is crazier than the fault! This is another tale about the reliability of aftermarket parts.
I am glad you retracted your "lemon" statement, Ivan. To answer your question, no, I have never heard of turning on the cooling fans due to ABS issues. Again, you stress OEM parts. GREAT VIDEO!
I had the same thing happen on a Ford Focus. The bad knuckle and NAPA providing 4 bad sensors made this problem a nightmare. I fixed it with a different brand sensor and a crusty used knuckle.
so i was lead tech on a 2009 chevy impala that we built for running in the 24 hours of Lemons races. For obvious reasons we removed the ABS function for the car. As soon as we did that the same thing happened - fans on full tilt. We could clear the codes and they'd stay off for a few seconds but then immediately come on. We weren't too concerned as a cooler rad was better than a hot one but the same pcm strategy was employed. I did trouble shoot backwards by reinstalling ABS relays/fuses etc... and fans behaved as they should. So, this isn't solely a Subi thing
I've come across this before with junkyard parts. Up until 2008 they had a cylindrical ABS-sensor, instead of the blade type this one had. The spindle wasn't wrong per se - just wrong for a 2009-2012. As I recall it - don't quote me, I'm over 50 - I just ordered the newer type sensor (I had the opposite problem to this, the old sensor wouldn't go in the hole).
I wondered if this might be the case - it seemed odd (though not impossible) that the hole was in the wrong location entirely. It makes more sense that it's the correct location for a different model. Makes you wonder if this could have been fixed by installing the older style sensor, of course.
Of course it _could_ be. But it would be as good a plan as removing the bearing and driveshaft, welding up and machining the spindle deeper, shortening the driveshaft and machining a spacer to fit between the hub and rotor. You can do it, but why - since it would offer no advantage whatsoever and atleast one disadvantage compared to faster and cheaper solutions? And who's going to pay for it?
@@KarlAdamsAudio I believe I did, but I can be wrong since it's atleast five years ago and I can't remember what I had for breakfast. Could be active/passive sensors, Teves vs. Denso aso...
My 02 subaru outback H6 has been super reliable, but I wont buy another subaru simply because the new ones disable cruise when they have a CEL, even if it's completely unrelated. I don't know why subaru does what they do, but I'd be incredibly pissed off if I couldn't set the cruise on a 6 hour road trip because some fault popped up half way through. Similar to how my dad's 2018 expedition disabled his cruise control when he had a fault.... with the parking brake. I like my old dumb cars thank you very much.
One of the problems with aftermarket parts is those manufacturers assume that all the years within that generation, all the parts are the same. Perhaps that knuckle fits an earlier/ later year model. It just happened to me with a Mitshimoto radiator. The alignment pegs were way off. This is a high end radiator built to high specifications. Too bad they took the measurements from a earlier year model and assumed it would fit the entire generation.
I can’t thank you enough. I had the exact same problem. It turned out the parts store sold me the wrong knuckle. It works on newer foresters but not an 09. Please beware, the knuckle bolts up perfectly and is so similar it would be impossible to see the difference without knowing what to look for.
I've seen where a PCM limp home mode turned on a cooling fan or cooling fans, but Subaru has 3 other sensors showing the vehicle speed. The program did not need to turn on the fans! Good one Ivan!
Great catch Ivan! Tracks it down in minutes nice. I can't say how valuable the ThinkTool Pro is, my sisters car had traction control light blinking on, seeing the 4 wheel speeds...problem not there saved me time.
Hi Ivan I live in Australia. I owned a 1993 model GM Holden Commodore sedan with the Buick V6 Automatic. My cooling fans were stuck on , the Gas Gauge was stuck at half a tank. It turned out to be a faulty ABS module. Bought one from the wreckers, fitted it and the problem went away. Had no trouble codes. No the ABS light didn't come on. Cheers Robert
Subaru and a few others will put like 4 or 5 different warning lights on for 1 issue. Your right about OEM making all the bells and whistles go off for 1 thing. People will literally drive their cars into the ground and wonder why so many parts are bad.
I have 25 parts in the "cart" on rock auto for a Chevy Cruze 1.4 that sucked the PCV check valve in. She drove till it smoked the turbo and just billowing smoke out tailpipe. All started with about 300 in parts and a couple hundred labor. Now she is looking at over 2k in repairs.
I figure the reason why the fans were being commanded on is because the code was in relation to the vehicle speed sensor. Many vehicles use the vehicle speed to determine if the cooling fans should be on. For example, if the vehicle speed is over 25 mph, the fans will usually be turned off because the ram air from the vehicle movement should be enough to cool the radiator. Conversely, at speeds below 25 mph, the cooling fans help with heat transfer when ram air is low or nonexistent. The fans were commanded on as a fail-safe, with the assumption that the speed sensor signal wasn't reliable. I also figure the other steering knuckle was designed for an older model with the conventional, pressed-on tone ring on the axle shaft, instead of the newer-design magnetic strip on the bearing. That explains the obvious difference in location for the speed sensor hole.
Subaru's have their problems but a healthy percentage of them are self induced by the mechanic and/or the parts. Nice job Ivan. Always check the last man (woman) in first with a visual inspection.
As a Subaru dealer tech, yes, Subaru turns all or most warning lights on for a c.e.l. Codes for ecm abnormal, vdc abnormal due to ecm malfunction codes etc. in other modules so people think their car is falling apart and bring in the car for service. Along with fail safe strategies etc. Another note, aftermarket parts just do not work on Subarus. They ALWAYS cause more problems than fixing.
On the cooling fan, one thing to check is the high pressure AC switch. Mine in my 01 Corolla had a problem with the fans being on high speed constantly, which turned out that the high pressure switch on the AC was going bad and commanding the fan to be on even with the engine off but key on. It also had a bunch of corrosion at the connector making it ground out internally at that switch. Replacing the switch resolved that issue. My research gave me the indication to go to the switch in my diagnostic procedures and tests. On the Subaru, i have not seen that particular reason yet but it could be one possible solution.
Getting paid to fix it. The problem is the customer asking to fix other issues not quoted in the repairs. Happened to me. I just told him. You asked me to fix this issue. Other issues you have to pay.
Aftermarket junk!! I'm dealing with the same issue on a 2005 Ford F-150 with a 5.4L 3 valve failed timing job with a lot of after market parts cam sensors, cam phasers, coils, valve covers and a lot of missing bolts and brackets. Way more work than it should have been. Thanks Ivan!
Exactly, so more diag time due to manufacturer strategy. Wondered about any recent dealer or other shop shootings…sure enough. I cannot wait to see the industry in 5-10 years.
Hi, Ivan... i m really fan of your work!. As a technician too i have a little trick. To test this abs sensors i use a refrigetors magnets.... not all work, but some of them haven small magnets lines jusk like the wheel bearing and if yous move fast in front of the sensor you will signal in the scanner data. I hope you could try this same time in the future. Thanks to share everything and saludos as we say in argentina.
Don't forget when the customer order the replace aftermarket crap part it may not of been crap due to chassis number break he may of just got the wrong year /cn for his car. ( just saying )been follow you for year's great job explained methodical logical work your the best I am a older guy been on plant /agri /and any thing with ice .you help me understand the Ai/ ecu world were liven in. nice to see you use spanners or as some say a wrench🤣 Thank You
I think the strategy is for the fans to come on if your engine is up to temp and you're sitting still in traffic and not moving. So with the wheel speed sensor not working, it thinks the car is sitting still. But I do get your point that there are 3 other wheels and the computer should still know that the car is moving-- even the spedo still works (as you showed). I wish we could hear from a Subaru engineer to explain the reasoning.
A software engineer following "separation of concerns" principles would say that the PCM does not need to care about individual wheel speeds. It should ask the ABS module "is the vehicle moving?" ... and the ABS module may reply "yes", "no", or "fault". In case of "fault" the PCM errs on the safe side and turns the fan on. I'm not an expert in automotive software and I don't know if that's the case here but I've seen this type of thing happening in many other contexts.
@@rrmm7566 Right.. so it was a software choice: they chose for it to report "fault" and neuter the car rather than to simply report "yes", the car is moving. The fault is still reported with a code-- so it would still be able to notify the driver that repair is needed-- they didn't have to shut it down like that. This is why a brand like Toyota has a better reputation for reliability: because in this situation, the vehicle would keep on working as normal rather than the goofy limp mode; and you can fix the insignificant wheel speed censor later, on your own time.
GM has the same behavior ! I encountered this in 2 Yukons , one of them had a bad suspension sensor, the other had a bad temperature sensor that kept reading low temp. BTW ... thank you for your great videos!
Why don't other shops use logic like you Ivan. All you did was compared the location of the speed sensor hole. I really don't know about some shops now. Common sense is a very good thing.
On the OEM knuckle, the sensor hole is maybe 4-5mm from the outboard edge of the knuckle; on the aftermarket one, it looks to be almost twice as far from the outboard edge. I suspect the sensor, bearing, tone ring, installation procedure, etc are all correct; I suspect that hole in the knuckle is simply placed a good 4mm+ away from where it should be. ETA: That'll teach me to comment before you're done. 😂
I have had one with a similar problem. Broken harness wiring on the right front, drivers side for me (south africa) fans on, lights all over dash and limp mode, wiring repair and all fixed.
Thanks Ivan - great job! I have an idea - let's put even MORE electronic sensors all over new vehicles to provide us with even MORE data, even if that data is corrupted/influenced by a bad sensor........"somewhere" on the vehicle. :o)
I work on that same vehicle about twice a year. I also had to replace the abs unit. I have played with that fan circuit as well for the same reason. Last time I saw the car all dash lights came on. About a dozen codes or so. I told them it needed a ECM. I can't program it so i sent them to the dealer. Everytime the codes were cleared the problem came right back. But when the car was driven to the dealer it fixed itself. No more lights on the dash. They kept appointment with the dealer who read all the codes, cleared them but couldn't repeat the problem again. 2 hours Diagnostics at the dealer, but no new ECM. As far as I know its been good ever since.
I was guessing wheel bearing, I was close. Nice fix. I saw one on a Honda that another shop had installed the press in bearing backwards and couldn't figure it out. I told them what they had done and they fixed it. Edit: to answer your follow up question, I don't think I've ever seen an ABS code turn on the fans. GM used to turn them on for engine codes but I'm not so sure they still do.
You are good! I’ve watched a number of you videos. We have our 2nd Outback. 2019 parasitic draw problems, windows, tailgate not opening as it should….. like how it drives. Hate all the little crap…….
Ah Subaru. I worked at dealer in 70/80’s. In 81 car would not upshift to drive when cold. Subaru said tear down tranny. Looked perfect. Finally engineer said computer held it in lower gears to keep rpm up in order to speed up cat. converter operation. What a major screw up nobody was told about at the dealers. You live and learn. If we could only live long enough we could learn everything ‼️
My 2005 Subaru Outback has done the same thing! I felt pretty dumb for not knowing what was going on. Since then I’ve seen my share of dumb things happening in manufacturing strategies when the abs or trac lights come on!
LOL have owned a 2016 Outback and two 2013 Outbacks (that year is notorious for oil consumption issues), and yes ANYTIME the CEL comes on, it flashes the brake warning light on the dash AND it deactivates cruise control. SOOO annoying, especially when the CEL is something you could totally live with like a P0420 code. Luckily I have been able to keep the CEL off over the last several months with a) oil changes every 3k-4k miles along with a bottle of Liqui Moly and/or Motor Medic engine flush, and b) the Scotty Kilmer special of pouring lacquer thinner in the gas tank!
I just had the tone ring fail on my 2013 Ford Fusion. The Front right wheel speed sensor was the fault it set off lights on the dash, annoying warning bells, and made the steering wheel much harder to turn.
As a driver and owner of a 2006 subaru forester with 210k, it has been a great car for me. I can pull the engine in around 90 minutes. Most major repairs, can be done with basic tools including a new Timing belt. I'm approaching the point, where I need to split the block and replace the piston rings. Burning about 1qt of oil every 1k. 50/50 symmetrical all eheel drive, I'll fix it and drive it till I die.
Had a similar problem with my Citroen C5, also car occasionally went into limp mode and 'slippery road' display activated- sold the car to a dealer in part-exchange - it's his problem now!
I've seen a few cars turn the fans on to full blast because of a vehicle speed sensor issue. One was a 2010 ford fusion. Another was a 2012 chrysler 300. If you clear the codes, it stops. But turns back on after a few blocks of driving. I think you might be right about it being such an annoyance thing that it makes the owner want to get the car fixed sooner than later. Around my area, people have a bad habit of covering warning lights up with black tape or photos.
I can see logic in the fan operation. If there is an issue with the abs being able to accurate measure when the car is moving or standing still. It would be better for the car to assume that you are not moving and ensure adequate air flow through the radiator.
Less air assumed to be traveling over the radiator due to the ECM interpreting lower wheel speed, so it calls for full fan in a desperate attempt not to blow a head gasket. Makes perfect sense for a Subaru...
Wouldn't the fans rely on coolant temperature readings, though? The wheel speed would be a moot point if the coolant is at a normal temperature. But this is Subaru we're talking about. My old Outback would power the fans on when I turned on the A/C button, even if the ignition was On and the engine was off.
My 2013 Subaru Outback had 3 lights for PO420 (catalytic converter efficiency below threshold): Brake & cruise flashing + solid check engine. Cruise control was also disabled. With 305K miles, there was no way I was buying a new cat. I installed a spark plug spacer on the down stream O2 sensor, problem solved.
Hi Ivan. I think it will be good if you flash the VIN number on the cars with strange issues, just to see where they have been made in. Thanks. Great Job as always. Thank you
My wife’s Toyota Yaris had a faulty O2 sensor and that caused the cooling fan to operate. I assumed it was to protect the engine in case the mixture was super lean.
Haha, gotta love it! I had a very similar situation with a VW a while back. Shop had put three CV axles, three wheel speed sensors, a knuckle, an ABS module and two harnesses in the car, still no wheel speed signal. Lo and behold, after five minutes of testing, wouldn't you know, the hub was damaged. Shop told me I was full of expletives, didn't know what I was doing, never paid their bill, and sent the car to the dealership, only to have the dealership put a hub in it. Whoops. As for an ABS problem turning on the cooling fan, I think in this case, it's specifically because the vehicle couldn't verify speed, and it may use vehicle speed as part of the cooling system load calculations. Safer to assume the vehicle is constantly stopped and let the thermostat do what it needs to do. It would be interesting to see if you could fault another part of the ABS system, just to see if it kicks the fans on. Perhaps a solenoid or pressure sensor?
Love your stuff. I get this request might slow you and your YT output, but it would be helpful to see screen grab outputs from the PC and scan tools. Doesn’t have to be super intensive, just overlay them on the existing footage. The glare was so bad in this one, that I couldn’t follow along with the electrical diagram. See Diagnose Dan or Auto Diagnostics and Programming for examples.
I had the opposite problem with my Envoy. The aftermarket ABS sensor was at least 1mm too long. If I'd driven after installing it, I would've ground the sensor to bits. (Thanks, Amazon)
Working on older electric fan only vehicles in the 90's I discovered that most only cycle on when the engine reached a certain temperature. Subaru's strategy here may have been to run a fan on full because of no speed sensor input? On another note, having the fan come on full doing 60 MPH would be another concern as well.
hi ivan. i have a theorie on the fans stuck on. if the abs doens't see a speed input from one wheel, then the ecm thinks the car is at a standstill with 1 slipping wheel. then you don't have any cooling , and i think that's why the fans are commanded on. the prevent overheating
Most people ignore ABS warning light. When the engine light comes on or odd/loud noises coming from engine area will bring full blown panic. Their strategy is to bring it to the nearest Subaru dealer for repairs.
This is just a guess. Condition: speed sensor doesn't work. Possible bad outcome: don't trust vehicle speed, and assume car is not moving fast enough to move sufficient air through condenser and radiator. Action: Turn on cooling fans full cycle to ensure adequate cooling of engine coolant and refrigerant.
The classic Subaru cause for weird behavior is that someone had connected the green connectors in the passenger footwell. They enable the test mode of the vehicle.
One model year of Subaru they decided to make the car lack power if both the rear brake lights were blown. No fault codes stored or anything else to point you in the right direction. If you come across a Subaru lacking power, always check the brake light globes first.
Great catch ! That proves when there tight tolerances you have to match things up real carefull . Especially with aftermarket junk . The local parts store had rebuilt starters with the wrong drives installed . That's gotta be fun when you hit the key !😄
hi. the bmw e83 x3 2009 does the same thing. i had steering angle sensor go and fan comes on full pwm .. also the same happened with a loose wire (plug) on the tranfer case actuator. the abs /mrs/wheel sensors /dsc/transfer case and yaw sensor are all linked /affected,when 1 goes down they all go down exept mrs can go down by itself. fault codes never show fan . but i bet bmw or in your case , subaru techs" should" know this allready.
Good old subys haha ,i have a couple of twin turbo subaru legacys and they have been so reliable , my set up has the tone wheel on the cv cup , they do have interesting software which can confuse people ,but after working with them you get to understand how they program them
Speaking of Mopar products, find a 1960's Plymouth or Dodge full size auto. With the key in the off position turn on the blinker turn on the emergency flashers turn the radio on and step on the brake pedal. The radio will play every time the flasher engages. Go figure back feed I guess
A good deal of French cars over here in Europe put the fans on for non engine related faults too. Also been getting newer JLR vehicles, when a wheel speed sensor goes down you get all the lights BUT also affects the power steering making it HEAVIER!!! Why is stuff not failing safe anymore!! These manufacturers need to break down in these vehicle some time and see how it feels!!
The software developers for that Subaru ECM probably had to meet a tight deadline, so the only did very basic fault handling. It would be interesting to see if that was improved in later models.
I think I remember a SMA, or maybe it was Ivan's video where the aftermarket Subaru bearing had the wrong amount of magnetic segments in the bearing and drove the ABS crazy. Like the OEM had 60 segments and the aftermarket was 56 or something like that.
Recently worked on a Mitsubishi and the customer kept having me diag all kinds of other issues even though we knew a wheel speed sensor was broken.. Ultimately I told the customer we needed to fix the known damage before moving forward with any other diag.. Turns out the wheel speed sensor was the cause of ALL of the issues. it apparently is not that un common.
In your new role as the auto exorcist, those Subaru demons were quickly put to flight, kicking and screaming down to junkyard hell. The aftermarket demon returns again and again in its many disguises and tries to alter the genuine mechanism of the system. The satisfaction of the customer can be felt from the video and relief that the ☀️ was still shining in his life. The amount of people that owe you thanks is sign of your commitment to the job in hand.
Could a possiblility be that the non OEM knuckle takes a different ABS sensor? That might be a cheaper option to try if the part number is different meaning the sensor might be "thicker" or something to position it better. Look up the applications for that knuckle to see if the sensors are different?
Not a good idea, more “cheap junk” to cause issues. The car should be able to be repaired with standard stuff n not “Mickey mouse” parts to be made to work
I just assumed that a Mickey Mouse owner that uses Mickey Mouse parts could try a Mickey Mouse sensor first. Obviously using OEM on chassis components or any sensor is the only first choice unless you are a Mickey Mouse owner... like this guy.@@nct9466
The only reason I can think of for the cooling fans to be on full blast is the car trying to protect itself. Since the car doesn't know if it is moving, the ECM is commanding the fan on to prevent an overheating situation. It definitely is over cautious considering that the car still has a coolant temp reading, but that is the only valid reason I can think of.
My friend has the same one, here in Canada, he just doesn't care about it, except for engine oil changes and the freaking car keeps running! It reaches 360 000 km, eat some oil, but that's it, never even checked the trans or differential oils!
I've had dramas like that with mid 90's GM(Holden Commodores) is over here in Australia doing the same thing with the Fans & ABS issues. Actual ABS Module failures. They(Holden) had a bad run on them for almost a decade!
Sir Ivan...mazda cx5 2.2 diesel is same crap it store any engine code boom abs traction control tcm all gose nuts😅..codes you will see is rabit holes 🕳 i wish you get one mazda cx5 diesel and will see what it takes to fix small issue big time
I remember years ago my father -in-law chasing an electrical problem in his Chrysler. He was an electrical engineer, so of course he over thought the problem. Issue: When he stepped on the brake, the dome light came on. Solution: The brake light switch was broken and he had no brake lights. Chrysler wired it so the dome light would warn you. That took 3 weekends with a multimeter to figure out. Yes, it was in the owner's manual.
I was just telling my brother tonight that if all else fails, then read the instructions.
I think I feel like I have been there, done that with some other like issues in my life. 😀
Omg 😂 that's crazy
OEM default strategies are crazy. I picked up a 2008 Miata with 311K, that was advertised needing a transmission(auto). The car started and drove fine, but at least once on a drive, the car would rev up going into 4th gear, and then not shift past that. You could turn the car off and restart, it would go back to shifting normal. No CEL. I drove it for awhile like it was, as I had other projects. One day I was driving it, it did its thing and the CEL popped on. The code was for a knock sensor. I remembered Ivan's video about the Mazda 3 that was stuck in third and had a bad knock sensor. I figured what the heck, put a knock sensor on the car(not a fun job). The car has been shifting fine for 6 months after. I was so close to putting a transmission in it, and would have had the same problem. Wild. Great videos as always.
Power of observation is very powerful.
I know Subaru disables cruise control for a MIL even something as silly as an evap code. Never knew that they had this strategy built in for the ABS problem...Great diagnosis Ivan. Thanks bud..
OEM is the magic word as always. Don't use cheap aftermarket parts. Ivan shows us this all the time. Cheap parts give you an expensive repair. Great job , Ivan.
I have seen some BIZARRE strategies out of BMW in the same fashion, completely unrelated module causing a designed fault in another one. Or door handles causing ABS problems. I love it, I think it's quirky and I think it sets you apart the more and more quirks you learn. Telling somebody that rain makes your airbag light turn on is fun and makes the shop more known as "Those are the guys you want to go to"
There are a lot of strange issues that are injected into the cars that were added just to give a distinct error for the test drivers during development and then left "as is" in production.
Enabling the cooling fans is to some extent making sense - make the driver annoyed so the car is brought to the workshop to be fixed.
@@ehsnils I never thought of that. I have noted one DME in particular that a completely regular function in all other DMEs was omitted I believe on accident. There is leaked tools out there that were used in production of said DMEs you can use, and the function exists on the engineering side but not on the consumer or repair side.
So far I have come across different types of problems related to the ABS sensor and wheel speed parameters, such as the magnetic bearings being installed in the opposite direction, the trigger being hit on the drive shaft, the holding spring being placed in front of the tip of the sensor, but your experience today is a new one. Thank you for sharing your experience
We've all gotten the "ever since" customers but wow.. this time the customer was correct!! Ever since you changed my steering knuckle, my fans won't shut off!
Wow, this is mind blowing. It also underscores how car manufacturers can covertly stick it to the customer and the independent mechanics with sabotage software. Thanks for the education, Ivan
I do electrical diagnostics and actually enjoy having the customer around. The more information about the problem as we go, the better.
I was not expecting this issue from that part! Although they did say that the problem started after they switched that suspension park
Crazy problem, Ivan! I would first suspect a temperature sensor input high, commanding the fans on. ABS fault may make the car think it's stopped and may need further cooling. The reality is crazier than the fault! This is another tale about the reliability of aftermarket parts.
Thats only a Nissan thing I think
@@TwilightontheTrail LOL 🙂
I am glad you retracted your "lemon" statement, Ivan. To answer your question, no, I have never heard of turning on the cooling fans due to ABS issues. Again, you stress OEM parts. GREAT VIDEO!
I had the same thing happen on a Ford Focus. The bad knuckle and NAPA providing 4 bad sensors made this problem a nightmare. I fixed it with a different brand sensor and a crusty used knuckle.
I had it too. ABS light on and fan full blast.
Fixed the connector at sensor harness.
so i was lead tech on a 2009 chevy impala that we built for running in the 24 hours of Lemons races. For obvious reasons we removed the ABS function for the car. As soon as we did that the same thing happened - fans on full tilt. We could clear the codes and they'd stay off for a few seconds but then immediately come on. We weren't too concerned as a cooler rad was better than a hot one but the same pcm strategy was employed. I did trouble shoot backwards by reinstalling ABS relays/fuses etc... and fans behaved as they should.
So, this isn't solely a Subi thing
I've come across this before with junkyard parts. Up until 2008 they had a cylindrical ABS-sensor, instead of the blade type this one had. The spindle wasn't wrong per se - just wrong for a 2009-2012.
As I recall it - don't quote me, I'm over 50 - I just ordered the newer type sensor (I had the opposite problem to this, the old sensor wouldn't go in the hole).
I wondered if this might be the case - it seemed odd (though not impossible) that the hole was in the wrong location entirely. It makes more sense that it's the correct location for a different model. Makes you wonder if this could have been fixed by installing the older style sensor, of course.
So plan B could be to drill new holes with the correct distance and install the sensor there. Old holes had to be plugged though.
Of course it _could_ be.
But it would be as good a plan as removing the bearing and driveshaft, welding up and machining the spindle deeper, shortening the driveshaft and machining a spacer to fit between the hub and rotor.
You can do it, but why - since it would offer no advantage whatsoever and atleast one disadvantage compared to faster and cheaper solutions? And who's going to pay for it?
@@KarlAdamsAudio I believe I did, but I can be wrong since it's atleast five years ago and I can't remember what I had for breakfast. Could be active/passive sensors, Teves vs. Denso aso...
Great find! I was hoping you would stick a borescope in the hole to look at the reluctor. But still very observant to see the sensor hole offset.
My 02 subaru outback H6 has been super reliable, but I wont buy another subaru simply because the new ones disable cruise when they have a CEL, even if it's completely unrelated. I don't know why subaru does what they do, but I'd be incredibly pissed off if I couldn't set the cruise on a 6 hour road trip because some fault popped up half way through. Similar to how my dad's 2018 expedition disabled his cruise control when he had a fault.... with the parking brake. I like my old dumb cars thank you very much.
One of the problems with aftermarket parts is those manufacturers assume that all the years within that generation, all the parts are the same. Perhaps that knuckle fits an earlier/ later year model. It just happened to me with a Mitshimoto radiator. The alignment pegs were way off. This is a high end radiator built to high specifications. Too bad they took the measurements from a earlier year model and assumed it would fit the entire generation.
I'm also wondering if there is a sensor or bearing that would work with the aftermarkey knuckle. Ofc better to have it OEM.
I’ve seen it on Toyota 2000. It was doing odd things until I fixed the rr abs sensor. Cured other issues.
I can’t thank you enough. I had the exact same problem. It turned out the parts store sold me the wrong knuckle. It works on newer foresters but not an 09. Please beware, the knuckle bolts up perfectly and is so similar it would be impossible to see the difference without knowing what to look for.
My grandpa used to say that we all will die one day and we will never see everything in life 😂
Awesome job Ivan 👌
I've seen where a PCM limp home mode turned on a cooling fan or cooling fans, but Subaru has 3 other sensors showing the vehicle speed. The program did not need to turn on the fans!
Good one Ivan!
Great catch Ivan! Tracks it down in minutes nice. I can't say how valuable the ThinkTool Pro is, my sisters car had traction control light blinking on, seeing the 4 wheel speeds...problem not there saved me time.
Great video Ivan! Thank you!
no way, I have the same year forester. its currently in my garrage undergoing a head gasket replacement using your video on that for reference
Hi Ivan I live in Australia. I owned a 1993 model GM Holden Commodore sedan with the Buick V6 Automatic. My cooling fans were stuck on , the Gas Gauge was stuck at half a tank. It turned out to be a faulty ABS module. Bought one from the wreckers, fitted it and the problem went away. Had no trouble codes. No the ABS light didn't come on. Cheers Robert
Subaru and a few others will put like 4 or 5 different warning lights on for 1 issue. Your right about OEM making all the bells and whistles go off for 1 thing. People will literally drive their cars into the ground and wonder why so many parts are bad.
I have 25 parts in the "cart" on rock auto for a Chevy Cruze 1.4 that sucked the PCV check valve in. She drove till it smoked the turbo and just billowing smoke out tailpipe. All started with about 300 in parts and a couple hundred labor. Now she is looking at over 2k in repairs.
I figure the reason why the fans were being commanded on is because the code was in relation to the vehicle speed sensor. Many vehicles use the vehicle speed to determine if the cooling fans should be on. For example, if the vehicle speed is over 25 mph, the fans will usually be turned off because the ram air from the vehicle movement should be enough to cool the radiator. Conversely, at speeds below 25 mph, the cooling fans help with heat transfer when ram air is low or nonexistent. The fans were commanded on as a fail-safe, with the assumption that the speed sensor signal wasn't reliable.
I also figure the other steering knuckle was designed for an older model with the conventional, pressed-on tone ring on the axle shaft, instead of the newer-design magnetic strip on the bearing. That explains the obvious difference in location for the speed sensor hole.
Subaru's have their problems but a healthy percentage of them are self induced by the mechanic and/or the parts.
Nice job Ivan. Always check the last man (woman) in first with a visual inspection.
As a Subaru dealer tech, yes, Subaru turns all or most warning lights on for a c.e.l. Codes for ecm abnormal, vdc abnormal due to ecm malfunction codes etc. in other modules so people think their car is falling apart and bring in the car for service. Along with fail safe strategies etc.
Another note, aftermarket parts just do not work on Subarus. They ALWAYS cause more problems than fixing.
On the cooling fan, one thing to check is the high pressure AC switch. Mine in my 01 Corolla had a problem with the fans being on high speed constantly, which turned out that the high pressure switch on the AC was going bad and commanding the fan to be on even with the engine off but key on. It also had a bunch of corrosion at the connector making it ground out internally at that switch. Replacing the switch resolved that issue. My research gave me the indication to go to the switch in my diagnostic procedures and tests.
On the Subaru, i have not seen that particular reason yet but it could be one possible solution.
Having people hanging out looking over my shoulder would drive me nuts!
ANXIOUS OWNERS
Same. They’d be told to let me get on with it
I would tell the owner to go away. They dont help. They just get in the way, and ask a million irrelevant questions.
Getting paid to fix it. The problem is the customer asking to fix other issues not quoted in the repairs. Happened to me. I just told him. You asked me to fix this issue. Other issues you have to pay.
Doesn't bother Ivan. If I was the best at something I would let people watch. That's why I'm not in porn.
Thanks!
Aftermarket junk!! I'm dealing with the same issue on a 2005 Ford F-150 with a 5.4L 3 valve failed timing job with a lot of after market parts cam sensors, cam phasers, coils, valve covers and a lot of missing bolts and brackets. Way more work than it should have been. Thanks Ivan!
Exactly, so more diag time due to manufacturer strategy. Wondered about any recent dealer or other shop shootings…sure enough. I cannot wait to see the industry in 5-10 years.
I've seen that before with the cooling fans in limp mode, good repair
Hi, Ivan... i m really fan of your work!. As a technician too i have a little trick. To test this abs sensors i use a refrigetors magnets.... not all work, but some of them haven small magnets lines jusk like the wheel bearing and if yous move fast in front of the sensor you will signal in the scanner data. I hope you could try this same time in the future. Thanks to share everything and saludos as we say in argentina.
Don't forget when the customer order the replace aftermarket crap part it may not of been crap due to chassis number break he may of just got the wrong year /cn for his car. ( just saying )been follow you for year's great job explained methodical logical work your the best I am a older guy been on plant /agri /and any thing with ice .you help me understand the Ai/ ecu world were liven in. nice to see you use spanners or as some say a wrench🤣 Thank You
I think the strategy is for the fans to come on if your engine is up to temp and you're sitting still in traffic and not moving. So with the wheel speed sensor not working, it thinks the car is sitting still. But I do get your point that there are 3 other wheels and the computer should still know that the car is moving-- even the spedo still works (as you showed). I wish we could hear from a Subaru engineer to explain the reasoning.
A software engineer following "separation of concerns" principles would say that the PCM does not need to care about individual wheel speeds. It should ask the ABS module "is the vehicle moving?" ... and the ABS module may reply "yes", "no", or "fault". In case of "fault" the PCM errs on the safe side and turns the fan on. I'm not an expert in automotive software and I don't know if that's the case here but I've seen this type of thing happening in many other contexts.
@@rrmm7566 Right.. so it was a software choice: they chose for it to report "fault" and neuter the car rather than to simply report "yes", the car is moving. The fault is still reported with a code-- so it would still be able to notify the driver that repair is needed-- they didn't have to shut it down like that. This is why a brand like Toyota has a better reputation for reliability: because in this situation, the vehicle would keep on working as normal rather than the goofy limp mode; and you can fix the insignificant wheel speed censor later, on your own time.
GM has the same behavior ! I encountered this in 2 Yukons , one of them had a bad suspension sensor, the other had a bad temperature sensor that kept reading low temp. BTW ... thank you for your great videos!
Hi Ivan! Usually this is Mercedes engeneering.They turn the fans on for battery that is in the end of its life.
Why don't other shops use logic like you Ivan. All you did was compared the location of the speed sensor hole. I really don't know about some shops now. Common sense is a very good thing.
On the OEM knuckle, the sensor hole is maybe 4-5mm from the outboard edge of the knuckle; on the aftermarket one, it looks to be almost twice as far from the outboard edge. I suspect the sensor, bearing, tone ring, installation procedure, etc are all correct; I suspect that hole in the knuckle is simply placed a good 4mm+ away from where it should be. ETA: That'll teach me to comment before you're done. 😂
I have had one with a similar problem. Broken harness wiring on the right front, drivers side for me (south africa) fans on, lights all over dash and limp mode, wiring repair and all fixed.
Great Job, Ivan. AFM parts. You Have to be Careful. Inspect Inspect Inspect.
Thanks Ivan - great job! I have an idea - let's put even MORE electronic sensors all over new vehicles to provide us with even MORE data, even if that data is corrupted/influenced by a bad sensor........"somewhere" on the vehicle. :o)
I work on that same vehicle about twice a year. I also had to replace the abs unit. I have played with that fan circuit as well for the same reason. Last time I saw the car all dash lights came on. About a dozen codes or so. I told them it needed a ECM. I can't program it so i sent them to the dealer. Everytime the codes were cleared the problem came right back. But when the car was driven to the dealer it fixed itself. No more lights on the dash. They kept appointment with the dealer who read all the codes, cleared them but couldn't repeat the problem again. 2 hours Diagnostics at the dealer, but no new ECM. As far as I know its been good ever since.
Lol
I was guessing wheel bearing, I was close. Nice fix. I saw one on a Honda that another shop had installed the press in bearing backwards and couldn't figure it out. I told them what they had done and they fixed it. Edit: to answer your follow up question, I don't think I've ever seen an ABS code turn on the fans. GM used to turn them on for engine codes but I'm not so sure they still do.
You are good! I’ve watched a number of you videos. We have our 2nd Outback. 2019 parasitic draw problems, windows, tailgate not opening as it should….. like how it drives. Hate all the little crap…….
yikes, well done Ivan picking that small detail up.
Ah Subaru. I worked at dealer in 70/80’s. In 81 car would not upshift to drive when cold. Subaru said tear down tranny. Looked perfect. Finally engineer said computer held it in lower gears to keep rpm up in order to speed up cat. converter operation.
What a major screw up nobody was told about at the dealers. You live and learn. If we could only live long enough we could learn everything ‼️
My 2005 Subaru Outback has done the same thing! I felt pretty dumb for not knowing what was going on. Since then I’ve seen my share of dumb things happening in manufacturing strategies when the abs or trac lights come on!
For more fun - connect the green connectors in the passenger footwell. They are probably hidden under the carpet.
Yup never know how the logic is programmed between the black boxes! 😅
LOL have owned a 2016 Outback and two 2013 Outbacks (that year is notorious for oil consumption issues), and yes ANYTIME the CEL comes on, it flashes the brake warning light on the dash AND it deactivates cruise control. SOOO annoying, especially when the CEL is something you could totally live with like a P0420 code. Luckily I have been able to keep the CEL off over the last several months with a) oil changes every 3k-4k miles along with a bottle of Liqui Moly and/or Motor Medic engine flush, and b) the Scotty Kilmer special of pouring lacquer thinner in the gas tank!
I just had the tone ring fail on my 2013 Ford Fusion. The Front right wheel speed sensor was the fault it set off lights on the dash, annoying warning bells, and made the steering wheel much harder to turn.
Great job Ivan. You always make me think deeper about what is going on.
As a driver and owner of a 2006 subaru forester with 210k, it has been a great car for me.
I can pull the engine in around 90 minutes. Most major repairs, can be done with basic tools including a new Timing belt.
I'm approaching the point, where I need to split the block and replace the piston rings. Burning about 1qt of oil every 1k. 50/50 symmetrical all eheel drive, I'll fix it and drive it till I die.
How many times have you pulled the engine out in 200k miles? 😂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics a few.
Had a similar problem with my Citroen C5, also car occasionally went into limp mode and 'slippery road' display activated- sold the car to a dealer in part-exchange - it's his problem now!
I've seen a few cars turn the fans on to full blast because of a vehicle speed sensor issue. One was a 2010 ford fusion. Another was a 2012 chrysler 300. If you clear the codes, it stops. But turns back on after a few blocks of driving. I think you might be right about it being such an annoyance thing that it makes the owner want to get the car fixed sooner than later. Around my area, people have a bad habit of covering warning lights up with black tape or photos.
I can see logic in the fan operation. If there is an issue with the abs being able to accurate measure when the car is moving or standing still. It would be better for the car to assume that you are not moving and ensure adequate air flow through the radiator.
Less air assumed to be traveling over the radiator due to the ECM interpreting lower wheel speed, so it calls for full fan in a desperate attempt not to blow a head gasket. Makes perfect sense for a Subaru...
Like this is so true #facts!
Lol that's a good theory 😅
Wouldn't the fans rely on coolant temperature readings, though? The wheel speed would be a moot point if the coolant is at a normal temperature. But this is Subaru we're talking about. My old Outback would power the fans on when I turned on the A/C button, even if the ignition was On and the engine was off.
i feel like op was speaking tongue in cheek.@@scott8919
@@scott8919 you arrived to the correct conclusion. Explanation:Subaru
My 2013 Subaru Outback had 3 lights for PO420 (catalytic converter efficiency below threshold): Brake & cruise flashing + solid check engine. Cruise control was also disabled. With 305K miles, there was no way I was buying a new cat. I installed a spark plug spacer on the down stream O2 sensor, problem solved.
I am a Subaru tech and I noticed myself that on every Subaru car made from like 2010+ they run the fans when the ignition is in the ON position.
Hi Ivan. I think it will be good if you flash the VIN number on the cars with strange issues, just to see where they have been made in. Thanks. Great Job as always. Thank you
My wife’s Toyota Yaris had a faulty O2 sensor and that caused the cooling fan to operate. I assumed it was to protect the engine in case the mixture was super lean.
Haha, gotta love it! I had a very similar situation with a VW a while back. Shop had put three CV axles, three wheel speed sensors, a knuckle, an ABS module and two harnesses in the car, still no wheel speed signal. Lo and behold, after five minutes of testing, wouldn't you know, the hub was damaged. Shop told me I was full of expletives, didn't know what I was doing, never paid their bill, and sent the car to the dealership, only to have the dealership put a hub in it. Whoops.
As for an ABS problem turning on the cooling fan, I think in this case, it's specifically because the vehicle couldn't verify speed, and it may use vehicle speed as part of the cooling system load calculations. Safer to assume the vehicle is constantly stopped and let the thermostat do what it needs to do. It would be interesting to see if you could fault another part of the ABS system, just to see if it kicks the fans on. Perhaps a solenoid or pressure sensor?
Love your stuff. I get this request might slow you and your YT output, but it would be helpful to see screen grab outputs from the PC and scan tools. Doesn’t have to be super intensive, just overlay them on the existing footage. The glare was so bad in this one, that I couldn’t follow along with the electrical diagram. See Diagnose Dan or Auto Diagnostics and Programming for examples.
That’s pretty amazing Ivan! Great video and great information. Thanks!
My friend Mike, an electrician, hard wired my cooling fans on my Volvo 940 to come on with the ignition in lieu of a new head gasket.
Amazing diagnosis! Crazy but totally believable.....
IVAN, You rock brother as always thanks for sharing.
I had the opposite problem with my Envoy. The aftermarket ABS sensor was at least 1mm too long. If I'd driven after installing it, I would've ground the sensor to bits. (Thanks, Amazon)
And then you have to replace the cooling fan too because it burns out...
Oops 🤨
Working on older electric fan only vehicles in the 90's I discovered that most only cycle on when the engine reached a certain temperature. Subaru's strategy here may have been to run a fan on full because of no speed sensor input? On another note, having the fan come on full doing 60 MPH would be another concern as well.
Very clever diagnosis. Well done.
hi ivan. i have a theorie on the fans stuck on.
if the abs doens't see a speed input from one wheel, then the ecm thinks the car is at a standstill with 1 slipping wheel. then you don't have any cooling , and i think that's why the fans are commanded on. the prevent overheating
Most people ignore ABS warning light. When the engine light comes on or odd/loud noises coming from engine area will bring full blown panic. Their strategy is to bring it to the nearest Subaru dealer for repairs.
This is just a guess. Condition: speed sensor doesn't work. Possible bad outcome: don't trust vehicle speed, and assume car is not moving fast enough to move sufficient air through condenser and radiator. Action: Turn on cooling fans full cycle to ensure adequate cooling of engine coolant and refrigerant.
The classic Subaru cause for weird behavior is that someone had connected the green connectors in the passenger footwell.
They enable the test mode of the vehicle.
One model year of Subaru they decided to make the car lack power if both the rear brake lights were blown. No fault codes stored or anything else to point you in the right direction. If you come across a Subaru lacking power, always check the brake light globes first.
Great catch ! That proves when there tight tolerances you have to match things up real carefull . Especially with aftermarket junk . The local parts store had rebuilt starters with the wrong drives installed . That's gotta be fun when you hit the key !😄
hi. the bmw e83 x3 2009 does the same thing. i had steering angle sensor go and fan comes on full pwm .. also the same happened with a loose wire (plug) on the tranfer case actuator.
the abs /mrs/wheel sensors /dsc/transfer case and yaw sensor are all linked /affected,when 1 goes down they all go down exept mrs can go down by itself.
fault codes never show fan . but i bet bmw or in your case , subaru techs" should" know this allready.
Good old subys haha ,i have a couple of twin turbo subaru legacys and they have been so reliable , my set up has the tone wheel on the cv cup , they do have interesting software which can confuse people ,but after working with them you get to understand how they program them
Speaking of Mopar products, find a 1960's Plymouth or Dodge full size auto. With the key in the off position turn on the blinker turn on the emergency flashers turn the radio on and step on the brake pedal. The radio will play every time the flasher engages. Go figure back feed I guess
A good deal of French cars over here in Europe put the fans on for non engine related faults too. Also been getting newer JLR vehicles, when a wheel speed sensor goes down you get all the lights BUT also affects the power steering making it HEAVIER!!! Why is stuff not failing safe anymore!! These manufacturers need to break down in these vehicle some time and see how it feels!!
The software developers for that Subaru ECM probably had to meet a tight deadline, so the only did very basic fault handling. It would be interesting to see if that was improved in later models.
I think I remember a SMA, or maybe it was Ivan's video where the aftermarket Subaru bearing had the wrong amount of magnetic segments in the bearing and drove the ABS crazy. Like the OEM had 60 segments and the aftermarket was 56 or something like that.
Thats crazy lol
Recently worked on a Mitsubishi and the customer kept having me diag all kinds of other issues even though we knew a wheel speed sensor was broken.. Ultimately I told the customer we needed to fix the known damage before moving forward with any other diag.. Turns out the wheel speed sensor was the cause of ALL of the issues. it apparently is not that un common.
In your new role as the auto exorcist, those Subaru demons were quickly put to flight, kicking and screaming down to junkyard hell. The aftermarket demon returns again and again in its many disguises and tries to alter the genuine mechanism of the system. The satisfaction of the customer can be felt from the video and relief that the ☀️ was still shining in his life. The amount of people that owe you thanks is sign of your commitment to the job in hand.
Could a possiblility be that the non OEM knuckle takes a different ABS sensor? That might be a cheaper option to try if the part number is different meaning the sensor might be "thicker" or something to position it better. Look up the applications for that knuckle to see if the sensors are different?
Not a good idea, more “cheap junk” to cause issues.
The car should be able to be repaired with standard stuff n not “Mickey mouse” parts to be made to work
Yes. Or rather that it was made to earlier specs...
There was a change of sensors between MY 2008 and MY 2009, I just wrote a post on it.
I just assumed that a Mickey Mouse owner that uses Mickey Mouse parts could try a Mickey Mouse sensor first. Obviously using OEM on chassis components or any sensor is the only first choice unless you are a Mickey Mouse owner... like this guy.@@nct9466
stick a magnet on chuck of cordless drill, spin drill, put sensor clos to drill chuck turn drill on this will prove sensor good / bad
The only reason I can think of for the cooling fans to be on full blast is the car trying to protect itself.
Since the car doesn't know if it is moving, the ECM is commanding the fan on to prevent an overheating situation.
It definitely is over cautious considering that the car still has a coolant temp reading, but that is the only valid reason I can think of.
I worked on a 06 Camry which had the ABS module go bad and it affected the air conditioning
My friend has the same one, here in Canada, he just doesn't care about it, except for engine oil changes and the freaking car keeps running! It reaches 360 000 km, eat some oil, but that's it, never even checked the trans or differential oils!
I've had dramas like that with mid 90's GM(Holden Commodores) is over here in Australia doing the same thing with the Fans & ABS issues. Actual ABS Module failures. They(Holden) had a bad run on them for almost a decade!
I agree. They just make it annoying to force customers to fix safety issues.
That's an odd one. good find and fix Ivan.
..for some reason people love these subaru outbacks and foresters...
Sir Ivan...mazda cx5 2.2 diesel is same crap it store any engine code boom abs traction control tcm all gose nuts😅..codes you will see is rabit holes 🕳 i wish you get one mazda cx5 diesel and will see what it takes to fix small issue big time