Comparative Mythology of the Indo European Creation Myth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- Comparative Mythology of the Indo European Creation Myth through the reading of various religious and historical texts and highlighting the connections. From Germania and Tacitus, to Odin and the Old Norse texts of the Poetic Edda. From Rome and Romulus and Remus to the Orphic Hymn to Zeus in Greece. And from the Abrahamic religions of the Near East, through Babylon and the Enuma Elis, to Persia and Zoroastrianism, and the Vedic culture with their Rig Veda. I talk through all this and more.
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Bibliographies/Citations
Kern, Otto. 1968. Orphic Hymn to Zeus (Fragment 168), modified
Ralph T. H. Griffith, trans., Hymns of the Rigveda (Benares: E. J. Lazarus, 1897) 2:517 ff., modified
B. T. Anklesaria, trans., Zand-Akszih: Iranian or Greater Bundahisn (Bombay: Rahnumae Mazdayasnan Sabha, 1956), pp. 49, 53, 117, 119, 127, modified
Jean I. Young, translation, Snorri Sturluson: The Prose Edda (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1954), pp. 34-35, modified
James Darmesteter, translation, The Zend Avesta (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1887), 2:292 ff., modified
Julius Eggeling, trans. Satapatha Brahn.ana (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1:29-30.), modified
Complete Works of Tacitus, trans. A. J. Church and W. J. Brodribb (New York: Modern Library, 1942), p.709
B. O. Foster, trans. Livy (Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press, 1961), 1:25, heavily modified
Slavic Contributions to the Biblical Apocrypha. I. The Old Church Slavonic texts of the Adam book, Memoranda of the Imperial Academy of Sciences (Vienna), History of Philosophy class 24 (1893):60
Schayer, Stanislaus. "A Note on the Old Russian Variant of the Purushasfikta," Archiv Orientalni 7 (1935): 319
Lincoln, B. (2016) ‘The Indo-European Cattle-Raiding Myth Source : History of Religions , Vol . 16 , No . 1 ( Aug ., 1976 ), pp . 42-65 Published by : The University of Chicago Press’, 16(1), pp. 42-65.
Anthony, D. W. (2010) The horse, the wheel, and language: How Bronze-Age riders from the Eurasian steppes shaped the modern world, The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World. Princeton University Press. doi: 10.5860/choice.45-6255.
Chapters
=====================
0:00 Introduction
1:51 The Indo European Creation Myth
7:13 The Indo European Creation Myth explained
9:21 Germanian Myth
10:18 Germania explained
11:45 Prose Edda
14:57 Old Norse explained
19:03 Rome: Romulus & Remus
21:08 Romulus and Remus explained
24:32 Zoroastrianism
27:57 Zend Avesta explained
29:22 Persian Greater Bundahishn
31:40 Persian Greater Bundahishn explained
34:41 The Rig Veda and Vedic Culture
37:08 The Purusa Hymn explained
38:23 Satapatha Brahmana
40:32 Satapatha Brahmana explained
41:28 Babylonian and Sumerian myth
44:26 Enuma Elis explained
45:56 The Bible
46:41 Genesis explained
47:49 Job 40 and 41
50:42 The Dove King
52:35 Greece
53:37 The Orphic Hymn to Zeus explained
53:55 Summary and next videos
Please ask any questions below, and thank you for all your feedback about setting up a community. I will sort something out in the next few weeks :)
Did you say these myths came from Iran?
@@ArcanumArcanorum17 some of them from Persia which is geographically similar
Are you on the new app,
Descended from odin .
@@stephan5673 It has annoying popups if you don't subscribe, and so I don't think I'll use it.
There exists a minority interpretation of Eve's creation out of Adam (only a few old testament scholars are confirmed to hold this view, though there may be more in number than I know). According to this interpretation, Eve was not built out of Adam's rib during some sleep of anaesthesia as it is popularly translated & interpreted by non-academics, but rather Adam was placed in a visionary state (the correct interpretation of his "falling into a deep sleep"), and in the vision he was cut in half, and out of this half Eve was formed.
The argument put forward by the old testament scholar John Walton is that the word usually translated "rib" or "side" elsewhere in the old testament texts refer to A SIDE OF A DUPLICATE OR PAIRED SYMMETRICAL OBJECT.
This ties in with themes from the IndoEuropean myth:
1. Adam prior to Eve's creation though not technically or obviously androgynous, does for the sake of the story's plot have the yet-to-be-created Feminine within his body
2. In this vision Adam sees, Eve is made from his body by being cut longitudinally in a symmetrical HALF, evoking the TWINSHIP THEME from the IndoEuropean myth.
I'm a junior anthropologist and theologian. I say junior because I couldn't continue following doctrine on either side of my studies. This is what I've been looking for for a long time. Folklore, oral history, has critical elements that is far more reliable than written history. You deserve far more recognition. Thank you. I'm opening old notes that I haven't read for more than two decades. Things are coming together where once I had dead ends.
Thank you for your kind words, and I hope you find more of my videos that interest you.
Are you looking through my notes? You are taking 4 years of my obsessions and expanding on them! Seriously though, I truly believe there was something in the past that was a root for all of these myths/religions and the way you trace them back is really well done. You are doing an excellent job and thank you for all your time and effort.
Thank you for watching and your support, I'm now going to see if we can work out what they mean.
Checkout Hamlet's Mill
@@shaggyrandy1264 I actually have the original version of that beside me right now! I'm pondering re-reading it, I do remember it was a tough read but interesting
@@Crecganford it made religion easier to understand.... Jullian Jaynes the bicameral mind is another good
At lazershark: I know, right? I've been thinking the same for years.
It's just like the ancient times. The story gets better when you hear it again.
Thank you
Very interesting. I'm a Persian speaker. I haven't read Bundahish, but have partly read Shahname which is heavily inspired by ancient Persian myths. The story has fascinating similarities to the story of Feridon who killed Azhidehak/Zahhak; an usurper of the thrown with serpents on his shoulders who fed on people's brains. The main reason Feridon rebelled against the serpent is that he had killed the sacred cow (Gov-e-barmaye) who had nursed Feridon with its milk when he had been abandoned by his mother to be spared. After Feridon became the King, his reign was over all the seven kingdoms, later distributed between his three sons Salm, Tur and Iraj. Oh, I forgot to mention that the person who helped Feridon to beat Azhidehak was not a stone god, but a blacksmith called Kave whose sons were killed and their brains eaten by the serpents.
Alla hu akabaar !!!
Fascinating
Fascinating
I am obsessed with all mythologies. Especially Norse/Celtic. I have randomly stumbled across a couple of your videos. Can't believe I haven't seen you sooner. Subscribed now. I absolutely love your voice. Your stories are excellently narrated!
Thank you so much for watching, and your very kind words, they are much appreciated.
*germanic,norse is just a branch of Germanic lol
Wow you definitely need more recognition for this video!! So well presented and easy to follow yet detailed. Job well done👌
Thank you, it was a challenge, but I am quite proud of what I managed to fit in and I haven’t seen another like it. So thank you for your kind words, they are very much appreciated.
I have been spending so much time trying to discover this information. Thank you so much for posting this and continuing your research. I appreciate it.
Awesome video, these elements can also be seen in later scripts of 1010 AD, "Shahnameh" by Ferdowsi, where "Freidon", the warrior figure builds an army that is made from the sacrifice of one out of two brothers (twin), to fight the three-headed serpent king "Zhahhak". Please cover the mythological connections of proto-Indo-European beliefs in "Shahnameh" as well.
Absolutely Magnificent, thank you for sharing, expanding our knowledge.
Enjoyed this video immensely. Well researched and organized delivery with great storytelling.
This sort of thing is exactly the kind of rabbit hole I’ve been looking for research for my stories
Another great video. Thank you.
This is extremely interesting. Similar myths are found throughout the American continent. In the Maya creation myth we find the twin brothers heroes, Hunahpu and Xbalanque, the collapse of the sky and the deluge, the slaying of the earth crocodile, the raising of the sky and the erection of the five World Trees, the maize god or 'first father', the defeating of deities of Thunder and Lightning, etcetera.
Have you read Popol Vuh?
Yea, I don't know much about the Mayan culture but I will look into this. Thank you!
@@Crecganford I didn't know about it either. It was my 13 y/o son who told me about it when he saw that I was watching your video. Some time ago my wife and I gave him a copy of the Popol Vuh because he likes to learn about mythology from different parts of the world. Now he has subscribed to your channel too. :)
The Popol Vuh, at least as we know it, was writted by a catholical friar: Francisco de Xerez. Based on an old 100% maya codex? Perhaps. But many ideas seem to be influenced by the christian-catholic religion. Hence the reason for the similarities.
You Mayans and Mexicans are crazy.
Fascinating work, Jon White! I've been an ancient-ancient history nerd since childhood, and your videos bring so much into focus for me. It's so interesting to see how humankind has evolved, culturally, spiritually and psychologically, from our Neolithic origins, into what we are today. Watching your videos, I keep having Aha! moments, where the results of your research resonate with thoughts and intuitions I've had over my 76 years of trying to understand what makes us tick as human beings on this planet.
Love your videos, they provide such an interesting insight about the past.
Thank you for watching them, and taking the time to let me know. It is appreciated :)
you videos are amazing!! the way you put together all the information, and present it so clearly and thoroughly, it is absolutely beautiful
Thank you so much for your kind words. They are appreciated.
I appreciate your time and effect put into these amazing videos. There is no high truth than knowledge. Peace be with you brother.
Thank you so much for watching, and your kind words.
Another excellent video.Jon.
Even though i know most of the stories you tell or at least the basis of them.i love the way you retell them my friend.please keep up the great work it is much appreciated
Such a good video! I'm so glad I discovered your channel.
Thank you for discovering Crecganford, and another thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. It is appreciated and supports the channel.
I'm a firm believe every creation myth is but a different retelling of the same event, probably some cosmic event that the ancient people witnessed millenia ago. If we could group up together all of the different versions of the story, find common ground but also noticing the differences between each and every version, we probably could figure out what really happened!
Finally found a channel I’ve been looking for all these months
And thank you for watching and commenting, it is appreciated.
I like these videos for the fascinating insight into human history but also inspiration for the creation story of my fantasy world that I am creating. Keep it up.
And thank you for watching them, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
Man I found this channel today. Immediately subscribed
Thank you
These videos are fascinating, I really enjoy them! You're about what I picture a Viking to look like, with a lovely narrator voice, and I can think of no better way of listening to mythology :D
Thank you for your kind words, they really are appreciated.
Brilliant channel! I stumbled across this and am amazed. Thanks....I will be watching and thinking, which is what this is all about, after all.
Thank you!
This is my favorite video on TH-cam. You are awesome. 😊
Wow, thank you so much for your kind words, they really are appreciated.
Humans had a need to explain nature..what happens around us...probably way before writing. This need may explain why so many believe false social media 'stories' about well everything..politics..UFOS big foot..etc etc
.we just love stories so long as they have a 'Myth' quality
The crazier..the better it is spread.
Found your channel thanks to Robert Sass. Loving your content so far!
Thank you, and if you have any questions please ask in the comments. I try and reply to as many as I can.
Outstanding presentation. Thank you.
Thanks for creating these videos
Thank you for watching them
the part about the king being willing to sacrifice himself to save his people made me think of the last king of the Mittani who sacrificed himself and his army to the Assyrians so his people could flee to India.
Exactly, a king must be willing to sacrifice himself for the people! Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
What was india called in that part of story?
Your awesome. I'm always searching with-in. A lot of this work I agree to.
Thank you for watching and commenting. If you have any questions or want to see anything in particular then let me know here :)
First time in here on your channel and it was very interesting to listen to.
Thank you, I hope you find more you like here.
You do such a great job. Thank you so much
Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated.
Ok, In the Kayin ethnics of Burma, there's a story about a gaint man named An Gun Ja Wa, who's so strong that the king assassinated him. From his body, the air and soil were born. But this has many plot holes of course. Where were men living without air nor soil?
I like learning, but you are something else!!! If there are any interesting topics you personally enjoy I would absolutely love to know more about it!!!
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching. It is appreciated.
I love learning from you. 😊
Thank you, I appreciate that.
the lighting is spectacular, but that automated gate... wheeeeeeew. LOVE your overwhelmingly knowledgeable perspective from which you're so gregariously flowing this... patience of knowing.. dunno how else to describe it, but gawddamn, your autogate+autogain is making my ptsd use words its not supposed to at work. i'm sure this is a very singular issue. so, please, don't spend money to change a THING if it's just me, but if there are other folks out there with strategies for listening through these issues (i'd just read but memory kinda... disappears from text after an hour or so) i would be so grateful. not at all the only source i encounter this issue with, but i aint got time to edit the audio on stuff anymore now that i can actually like.. go out in public and work.
I have a better microphone now :) Thank you.
Jon, great work on this series of videos on the proto-Indo-European myth and its current descendants. That series of videos were the first by you I saw, and they were quite helpful. Have been interested for years in how to possibly reconstruct pre-Roman myths of peoples from current Portuguese territory and never quite knew how to aside just collecting any story which has a pre-medieval setting attributed to it or to use any similarity or link to surviving mythologies to just retro-engineer a myth and those always seemed too artificial to me and like something was missing.
Your wide synthesis of scholarship on reconstructions really made something "click" for me. After that, some southern Portuguese legends on a giant snake atacking cattle and fighting a bull and a town being build there, western Iberian variants on Her(a)cules and Geryon and stories on two Hercules all the sudden seem much more mythically rich. Anyhow, keep up the great work on the channel.
Coming from an abrahahmic and heavily Afro cultured background we are often told mostly of western semitic culture basics like creations and such and some eastern hamitic as we call them based on our Noah story, but we are almost NEVER given information on the Indo European and other more Japhetic cultures and it's very hard to find objective sources and channels that put them succinctly, giving us much ignorance for lack of available knowledge on the upper Asian and Indo people's lives and world and your channel has helped me personally with my studies on the major ethnic groups, languages, and geographical kingdoms of the sons of humanity as I search to understand and appreciate them based on our biblical understanding via the table of nations.
Keep providing such undeniably endless value you are teaching many people and informing them on things that should be talked about MORE and are sorely misunderstood.
Thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated.
A lot of these myths involve creating order and dispelling chaos. We really like the idea that someone somewhere has a plan, and if we do the right rituals we'll never run into anything unpredictable or difficult.
Did you ever make the part 2 of this video? Would love to see it!
I made a few videos following this about Indo-European Religion and Culture, I have an Indo-European Playlist which should guide you through all the videos.
In Vedic Indian mythology there is another guy Yama apart from the sacrificed purusha. Yama was the first man to die and his twin Yaami grieved for him as she wanted to marry him. Tears became Yamuna river. Yama is also god of death for Hindus.
That isn't a Vedic myth, but instead a Puranic myth.
only half way through but great video man, thank you!
Thank you for watching
I feel like fish in water within your stories. Your approach is very familiar to me and I enjoy getting filled in the blanks in my own contemplations
Thank you, that's very kind of you to say such things.
Great job, my congratulations and thank you !
Listening to the old norse creation myth i noticed the name Trito and for me, as a Greek, this name sounds familiar. Athena, the virgin warrior goddess, daughter and probably the first child of Zeus, has another name "Tritogeneia", which means (from) the third genus. There are many speculations, even in the ancient times, about this name's origins but nothing solid. There was a place in Crete as well, written in a linear B tablet, with the name "ti-ri-to" = "Trito". I think the old myths found some weird ways to survine in the greek mythology.
Thank you again!
Northern Eurasia do not have lightning or snakes anywhere as near as Equatorial places. So most probably the "Thunder god slaying water serpent" myth originated near the equator.
Nordic Lights making it a world serpent surrounding the Midgaard?
I really love that this stuff is talked about so much. Every time I see a new channel/person, I get happier. I'm trying to work out all the similarities and group all the similar gods in an attempt to make a set of gods for my fiction that represents a bunch of different mythologies.
It may be too big of an undertaking, though. I just don't want to default to Greek and Roman. That's where my mind seems to drift. And Mesopotamian.
This may be interesting to you. As far as my limited knowledge goes, I am of the opinion *the migration of Vedic Aryans (3400-1500 BCE) from North West India to Europe and Eurasia of the Druhyu tribes, the Alinas, the Anus etc resulted in the settlement of the Celts and Gauls, Germans, Balts, Hittites and the Zarathustra's (Iranians).* Remnants of these tribes in India were absorbed into the Bharat clan/Puru (Kurus and Panchalas) mainstream.
The Druids/Celts followed practices like idol worship, worship of multiple gods, food offerings in worship, philosophy of non destruction of soul, belief in rebirth after death, worship of ancestors, etc. Julius Caesar, while describing them, mentions that they were experts in Religion, Philosophy and Astronomy, and they were doing research in, debating and interpreting, those fields.
This is similar to the way Upanishads, Hindu scriptures were formed through debates, discussions and interpretation of Vedas. *The Druids chanted something similar to Vedas. Vedas were not written, but orally transmitted. Similarly the Druids did not keep a written record of the chanting. They did not read out from books. Those who chanted Vedas were under strict regulations and disciplines; the Druids also followed strict codes of conduct. Like this, the Druids can be compared to Indian priests who follow Vedic tradition in many ways.*
Apart from this, when Greeks and Romans brought Celts under their rule, they changed the Celtic names. They changed the names of places and people to Greek and Latin and gave new interpretations. Greeks had a general tendency to give their own names in Greek to the names of non-Greek people and places.
Therefore, we can imagine the havoc they had done to Celtic names, whose culture they wanted to wipe out completely. History shows the oppressive nature and sense of superiority of the Greeks, while dealing with their subjects. This resulted in concealing historical evidence. Not only that, many Celtic gods were brought into the Greek fold with new names and new dressing! Let us remember that the greatly praised Greek culture is a borrowed one!
When Greek dominance faded, the Celts were prevented by Christianity from continuing with their traditional Celtic practices and customs. Christianity showed keen interest in wiping them out totally. Namaste.
Excellent work!
Thank you for watching it!
It's been a while but I seem to recall that there are several parallels between Sumerian myth and the Popol Vuh of the Maya, the hero twin brothers being among the most prominent.
1) I know this video is old, so I doubt you'll see this, but I just want to start with, your videos are fascinating and this is simply where I'm at while binge watching your Uploads playlist. Lol. Can't wait to see more. 2) I know you have an opinion about Christians, and that's totally fine. As a Christian, I wish other Christians would separate their convictions from other people's opinions. I appreciate your approach in this video to an understandably sensitive topic, but I also know the reason is because of the hate comments people tend to leave. I hate those, and I'm so sorry. I wish you didn't have to deal with it, because I'd love to hear you go into more detail about the similarities between Genisis and other culture's myths. I will be checking out your other video on it as well. Keep up the great work.
Thank you for taking the time to comment, and I appreciate your words.
I’m an American. I drink coffee… now i drink English breakfast tea while watching your videos
I call that a win for England :)
Can't recall what I watched that triggered the algorithm to suggest this vid, but it's doing something right. Very interesting, and now have a new book to read.
Thank you for trusting the algorithm! I hope you enjoy the videos here.
Big fan of the channel! Love the video but was confused about the connection between Tiamat and Behemoth. Do the names have connections to each other in some way or is there a separate reason why the two are linked? Regardless, keep up the great work!
That is a good question, and to answer it properly needs a good video, and that is something I am working on as it has many implications for those who are Abrahamic in their faith.
@@Crecganford thanks so much for the response! I eagerly await the video!
Thank you, this is excellent!
Thank you for watching it
Very good material, as always. When I saw the Chinese myth of Pan Gu in the "genealogical tree", I was hoping you would talk about it too. I know you focus on indo-european mythology, but it would be interesting to know how the Chinese myth aligns with these myths. Further, I remember the Aztec myth of creation is VERY similar to the Babilonian. A video comparing them would be very interesting too.
One of the take aways for me is that you cannot kill a good story. If you want people to accept a new doctrine, you have to couch it in terms that do not require people to give up a well loved tale. You graft your theology onto the existing story and modify the tale just enough to make it compatible with your ideas.
Awesome vid, thank you
And thank you for watching and taking the time to leave a comment, it is appreciated.
@@Crecganford Do you have an email address? I want to show you something cool I found that you might like.
Incredible how these ancient creation myths bear striking similarities with Christianity: the body being sacrificed for the good of those that come after, the very flesh and blood feeding us physically and spiritually.
Keep up the great videos!
Thank you!
Yup, hence why many of us who do study our abrahahmic beliefs don't understand why the actual ideology of it gets attacked when it's a minority of idiots who abuse things.
@@nazareneoftheway3936 the way I understand it is you are disquallified at genesis starting with Adam and eve.
If you truly believe the bible is the word of god then their is no time for the proto Indo European to exist and pass these stories down as the earth is only 5 or 6 thousand years old. Then you essentially admit christian or judist Is based on pagan mythology.
No disrespect to you or your beliefs I say this because I have a very religious uncle I used to talk to about religion. He told me the rest of the bible is basically meaningless if you can't accept genesis as literal
Hi Jenny, No matter how he twists it, the Genesis account is nothing like these other stories. Yahweh speaks everything into being out of NOTHING! No body parts, no gods raping, marrying, killing each other, spreading semen nor suckling animals as in all the other stories. Genesis makes clear NOT to worship the bovine/cow he speaks of in the other tales. Marduk is also mentioned in the Bible as an idol worshipped by the Babylonians, not by Israelites. Notice the great differences and UNIQUENESS of the Bible.
now I know how the word "manusya" originated from,
and of the topic of discussion thare is a one set of twins in Indian mythos called Nara-Narayana, described as previous incarnations of ajruna and Krishna.
Hey there, love your channel and all the meticulous research, as I mentioned the other day. So I’ve been thinking about the chaoskampf myth and the related creation myths, and how sometimes the dragon-slaying is separate from the creation myth (as seems to be the case with the PIE setup) and sometimes the sacrificed twin becomes the dragon (Tiamat, most notably). Ymir represents chaos, like Tiamat, and from both are made the world.
Now. You mentioned there’s no cattle stealing in Norse myth, but given that the cattle stealing is also the dragon slaying, and considering that Jormungand and Vrirtra and other such chaos dragons hold back (steal) the waters of the ocean or the outer ocean, and release a flood when slain - I wonder if the flood release and the cattle return aren’t equivalent. The point is fertility and prosperity; stealing the cattle is akin to a drought, perhaps. Releasing the pent up waters and bringing back the cattle could be similar. So Thor slaying Jormungandr in conjunction with the releasing of his tail could be similar. I think a lot of what used to be creation myth ideas worked their way into Ragnarok, because Ragnarok is a remaking or recreation of the world. Curious to hear your thoughts. I haven’t watched the rest of this playlist yet so apologies if you get to this. I’m definitely going to finish it though, it’s fabulous! Cheers friend
The tale of Thor fishing for the Midgard serpent is infact a reflex of the cattle raiding myth... Thor kills cattle, catches serpent with cattle, then kills giants. The Ragnarok event I feel is the equivalent of the flood event in older myths. But to explain that in a text reply will be futile unless I could write a book. So perhaps I should do a video about it :) I'll put that on my list, after I've finished my current plans which involve death, dogs, and Odin.
@@Crecganford right on, I totally get that. You know with Vritra it’s even more obviously similar to cattle stealing because Vritra drinks up all the oceans with all the fish and whatnot. Very cool... like I said I’m looking forward to the rest of your videos :)
Also there’s a few “remaking of the world” myths which are similar to or borrow from the creation myth slaying. Typhon is slain by Zeus at a final battle, and in Vedic myth there’s Gochir I believe it is. It’s a logical thing to do, have your end of the world / remaking of the world myth reflect or parallel the creation myth.
@@DavidLightbringer Yes, The Greek myths are a little removed from the original motifs, but still recognizable :)
If you had to choose which Proto-Indo-European Mythology is your favorite, which one would you choose?
I personally enjoy Zoroastrian but Irish-Celtic is also fascinating and has inspired worldbuilding I've done;
However, I enjoy PIE Mythology the most.
That’s a great question, and I have to say because of the quantity of Old Norse Myth, then that would be my first choice. However the root myths of PIE are the most fascinating.
pie is fictional
Explain@@Aryaveer_jadli
I've seen many of your videos, and I love them. In many of them the sound is not good even when you evidently have a magnificent microphone. I assume that the problem is on the settings, that are adjusted extremely sensible and affect the quality of the recording.
I have recently purchased a new microphone, and so I do hope I can improve the audio quality as I am aware it has been a problem.
I enjoyed this video.
Do you have any videos or information on the scythian people and thier beliefs?
Not yet, this part of mythology I have to create carefully as the information can be contradictory. But a video will be made as soon as I can.
12:06. Is there any clue if a 3-aspect god in the Prose Edda was Catholic influenced? I recall the Eddas were written down some time after Christianisation of the region.
The Prose Edda definitely has Christian bias and so must be approached with caution, the Poetic Edda less so but it is there. But to say if that specific reference is, is difficult to prove.
Great, thanks! I have wanted to know the connection between old norse and christian myths. I am looking forward to the rest of the series!
Thanks for watching!
The Eddas were written in the 13th century, after Christianity had sacked their culture.
It's a but unfair to assume to story was original and unaffected by Christians.
It's kinda assumed the Eddas had a Christian re-write, and we dont actually have any texts of their mythos beforehand.
Check out "Overly Sarcastic Productions" on TH-cam. 🤙🏼
@@lococomrade3488 I have also talked about this on my channel, so I would prefer if you pointed people to my videos :)
@@Crecganford 😂 sorry, this was the first of your vids I watched; promise to do so next time.
They cover a slightly different, but overlapping subject matter, so I wouldn't consider them "competition." (You may like them as well.. and they've done collabs..)
Nice vid, btw. Thanks for not saying aliens. ;)
Please point to those videos.
Where did you get all your ancient deity statues? I would love to have some replicas myself, but I can’t seem to find any anywhere.
I have friends who work at museums and so get me replicas.
Great video! I am fascinated with European mythology, but recently I have become interested in Aztec mythology and I do not think it gets the attention it deserves. Do you think there are any similarities between Hesiod’s ‘Ages of Man’ and the Aztec ‘Five Suns’ or are there mainly differences? Another way of asking the question is are there any commonalities between Mexica (Aztec) cosmology and/or accounts of early civilization with Hesiod's accounts?
Greek mythology is very popular, and Hesiod was one of the best ancient writers who documented a lot of mythological conceptions within ancient Greek society. One of the most important and interested mythological frameworks is the so called ‘Ages of Man’ concept. The Ages of Man are the historical stages of human existence according to Greek mythology and its subsequent Roman interpretation.
Both Hesiod (and later Ovid with his four ages) offered accounts of the successive ages of humanity, which tend to progress from an original, long-gone age in which humans enjoyed a nearly divine existence to the current age of the writer, in which humans are beset by innumerable pains and evils. In the two accounts that survive from Ancient Greece and Rome, this degradation of the human condition over time is indicated symbolically with metals of successively decreasing value (but increasing hardness).
The Greek poet Hesiod (between 750 and 650 BC), in his poem ‘Works and Days’ (lines 109-201) records this. His list is:
* Golden Age - The Golden Age is the only age that falls within the rule of Cronus. Created by the immortals who live on Olympus, these humans were said to live among the gods and freely mingled with them. Peace and harmony prevailed during this age. Humans did not have to work to feed themselves, for the earth provided food in abundance. They lived to very old age but with a youthful appearance and eventually died peacefully. Their spirits live on as "guardians". Plato in Cratylus (397e) recounts the golden race of men who came first. He clarifies that Hesiod did not mean men literally made of gold, but good and noble. He describes these men as daemons upon the earth. Since δαίμονες (daimones) is derived from δαήμονες (daēmones, meaning knowing or wise), they are beneficent, preventing ills, and guardians of mortals.
* Silver Age - The Silver Age and every age that follows fall within the rule of Cronus's successor and son, Zeus. Men in the Silver age lived for one hundred years under the dominion of their mothers. They lived only a short time as grown adults, and spent that time in strife with one another. During this Age men refused to worship the gods and Zeus destroyed them for their impiety. After death, humans of this age became "blessed spirits" of the underworld.
* Bronze Age - Men of the Bronze Age were hardened and tough, as war was their purpose and passion. Zeus created these humans out of ash tree. Their armor was forged of bronze, as were their homes, and tools. The men of this Age were undone by their own violent ways and left no named spirits; instead, they dwell in the "dark house of Hades". This Age came to an end with the flood of Deucalion.
* Heroic Age - The Heroic Age is the one age that does not correspond with any metal. It is also the only age that improves upon the age it follows. It was the heroes of this Age who fought at Thebes and Troy. This race of humans died and went to Elysium.
* Iron Age - Hesiod finds himself in the Iron Age. During this age, humans live an existence of toil and misery. Children dishonor their parents, brother fights with brother, and the social contract between guest and host (xenia) is forgotten. During this age, might makes right, and bad men use lies to be thought good. At the height of this age, humans no longer feel shame or indignation at wrongdoing; babies will be born with gray hair and the gods will have completely forsaken humanity: "there will be no help against evil."
The idea that mankind’s history is one of regress rather than of progress has been seen as central to the classical outlook on life. The famous historian of ideas, Arthur O. Lovejoy documents this phenomenon reflected in Greek and Roman mythology within his work titled *’Primitivism and related ideas in antiquity’* (1935). He distinguishes between chronological primitivism, cultural primitivism, soft primitivism, and hard primitivism. Hesiod also appears to document a “progressive” view of human history in his tale of the myth of Prometheus which stands in fascinating contrast to the “regressive” Ages of Man.
Anyway, with all that said about the Hesiodic Ages of Man, I was expanding my research in other cultures mythology, and I read about a concept within Mexica (Aztec) Mythology (and cosmology) called the ‘Five Suns’. These indigenous people’s mythological views were that the world has gone through five distinct cycles of creation and destruction, with the current era being the fifth. It is primarily derived from a combination of myths, cosmologies, and eschatological beliefs that were originally held by pre-Columbian peoples in the Mesoamerican region, including central Mexico, and it is part of a larger mythology of Fifth World or Fifth Sun beliefs.
It seems that there is a fundamental similarity between the Hesiodic Greek Ages of Man and Mexica (Aztec) Five Suns as both have five ages of man (with both seeming to be regressive) and in both modern man is in the fifth age. They also seem to be similar in assuming cyclical time. However, I am not an expert on Mexica (Aztec) Mythology and Cosmology and that I am looking for people who are more educated than me to educate and inform me whether I am correct in my assumptive assessment.
So, can we compare and contrast Mexica (Aztec) cosmology and/or accounts of early civilization with Hesiod's accounts (Ages of Man and maybe even perhaps the myth of Prometheus)? Are there any commonalities (as I suspect), or only differences?
Briliant Video!
Thank you so much for your kind words.
Are you able to explain the Pantheon in a future video
Yes, I'm happy to do that
Crec, the thing about Purusha is that He sacrifices Himself to Himself, thereby creating alll beings, including the devas.
If there are parallel stories/motifs in cultures outside of the PIE region, ie North America and Siberia, would you please share? This would imply a shared story structure at least 40-30kya.
Yes, I will talk about these soon. If you haven't watched my cosmic hunt or ferryman video, they both are stories that fall into the category you're interested in.
You should talk about the Ulster Cycle particularly the Tain Bo Cuilgne, The Cattle Raid of Coolney staring Cu Cuthullain, the Hound of Cullen, earlier known as Sentana.
Yes, I want to! I have touched on that in videos about the British Creation Myth, but will do a series of videos on this when time allows.
Very much looking forward to a video on this. I haven’t read these yet, but they are on my book list.
Are there analogues of PIE, cultural and mythological diffusion in other geographical locations?
Yes, certainly we see this in North America, where three distinct waves of migration happened at the last glacial maximum, and there maybe a similar pattern in Oceania and Australia, although I'm less well versed in the anthropology here.
Great vídeo my friend
Thank you
Do you know any way where to read Dove Book in english translation? (Or Czech or Slovakian?)
I was pondering publishing my translation, I will do that this week. Check academia.edu in a few days and you should be able to find it :)
@@Crecganford Great! Thank you so much 😍
"Before time there was darkness" That is seminal. If time is just the recording of the process of the generative/degenerative process, would it hold that the darkness was immortality. Symbolically the image of light would be more symbolically appropriate, no?
31:30 isn't it a bit too early for "steel"? Even if it's a later addition of when it was written down.
Very interesting. I have noticed how the same themes keep popping up in religions right around the world, as if there was one basic belief that spread to all those coming after.
This creation story is almost a retelling of the creation story of the Ancient Egyptian gods. The serpent, the original (2×4 -8) "God/Forces/Sacred Elements" that created the Universe, Earth and then the first God to rule and govern the Universe, Earth and Mankind.
In one of the novels of the series The Exorcist (the third one, I think) there's a vision a character has near the end, where two cosmic beings are in conversation with one another. One is evidently younger / less mature - a child. That one tells the other one "I want to create myself." The older wiser one says "There will be pain." The younger one agrees, but has made up his mind, and he blasts himself into bits - one consciousness into many - and that gives rise to a universe of being. Clearly the idea is that that's how our universe came to be - when a divine being began a transformation to "adulthood." The implication is that eventually this being would come together again and would then have partaken of all of the experiences of every being that lived in its "universe." It was a rite of passage into that being's adulthood, I suppose.
Anyway, I relate it because once again there's the concept of two beings and a sacrifice, but in this case it's a self-sacrifice (which I suppose I find more appealing, honestly), with the "parts" of a cosmic being forming the structure of our cosmos. And it was completely clear that this universe would contain both "good" and "evil" - happiness and despair, etc. Everything in positive and negative forms; it was just how the process worked, and couldn't be avoided. And that's what tied it back to the story at hand - one of demons and traditional Christian evil.
Please check 23min20sec (Romulus and Remus). I was going along with this quite happily as Romulus and Remus arguing about the city they are GOING TO found, then Romulus killing Remus. But now, all of a sudden, R&R are seen as a threat to the Rome, which has ALREADY been founded, and which already has GENERATIONS of kings, (R&R mother = previous king's daughter), and the current king sees R&R claim as a threat!
I'm happy to go along with a certain amount of bending to find the cognates, but not to the point of plasticine :-)
Though I'm still loving this, by the way.
Kevin Brennan The Irish have a legendary story, "the Cattle Raid of Cooley" that I thought blended somewhat with the emphasis on cattle from your references:
Táin Bó Cúailnge
Táin Bó Cúailnge, commonly known as The Táin or less commonly as The Cattle Raid of Cooley, is an epic from Irish mythology. It is often called "The Irish Iliad", although like most other early Irish literature, the Táin is written in prosimetrum, i.e. prose with periodic additions of verse composed by the characters.
Hi Jon, I always wondered how the Greec creation with fits in the Indo European creation. There is no sacrifice of a Primordial being. Gaia just came out of Chaos. When Uranus got castrated, the world was already formed. Can Kronos/Saturn be compared with Buri or Borr?
That is a great question, and the links are there, but a generation removed. In effect the cultural replacement and neighbouring influence diluted it. I can produce a video about it as I have consider it before.
Great video, I never wondered ... but now I know why the cow is sacred in India.
I'm curious, but you didn't mention it: Does the story of Cain and Abel, and the subsequent birth of Seth, fit into the creation myth. It seems like Cain and Abel would be analogues to Manus and Yemo, with Seth coming later as Trito.
Cain and Abel are very interesting, but when it comes down to details it is difficult to link them even if on the surface they look similar. I will make a video about this in the coming months though as it is often requested. Thank you so much for watching and supporting the channel through your comments, I appreciate it.
John,
Egyptian Seth (Setekh) cut Osiris (Usir) into pieces which are life giving. Could this myth have parallels with the Proto Indo-European creation myths?
Ty,
Astronomuse
I will do a video on this soon, but yes, there are certainly motifs that align to the Indo-European myths.
@@Crecganford Looking forward to the video, interested to hear your ideas. I've been delving into a myriad of myths and stories during the process of working on a project concerning the Dendera Zodiac of Egypt. Your work is very helpful to fellow scholars and story lovers. The Cosmic Hunt video is a fave.
Would you say that, in this telling of the myth, that Dyeus Phter is darkness? In other words, Manus sacrifices Yemo to Dyeus Phter, aka darkness?
Also, what happens to the bovine? Do you see it as, immediately being recognized as Taurus the constellation, or something?
As always, thanks for the great research data.
It's so fascinating to me that the mythology was suppressed and then brought back by Jesus himself becoming the ultimate sacrifice who creates the New Covenant, New Earth, etc. Christians themselves are now "the body of Christ" and the Passover meal representing his blood and body. There might not be a story (in the Bible) about his body parts being used to create the earth but the symbolism is still there.
OMG I am such a nerd! I wrote an prize-winning essay about Indo-European and the horse at uni citing David Anthony a lot, and I have that book by him! Also it's interesting about the god being cut into pieces, similar to Osiris in Egyptian mythology .and the the Romulus/ Remus drama. annoying questions: do you reckon 'mannus' is the cognate of 'man'?
Yes, Manu is cognate with man, the first man, as it relates to Yemo (twin) and Trito (third). So from a poetry and linguistic perspective it really is the most natural of fits.
@@Crecganford Oh yeah Yemo like Gemini! That's so cool!
Man in PIE is gHomon: made of dirt. Deriving from degHom: Earth, dirt. This coincides with almost all creation myths in which mankind was made from dirt or mud by a god or gods.
I'm originally an Indian Bengali, one of the eastern most IE (also me being upper caste and my look, I've relatively more genetic lineage to IE, I reckon). In our language, "maanush" means a person or a human, and generally used more to refer to a man. That's probably the closest cognate of "mannus" in 2023. "maanus" or "maanas" or its cousin words like "maanav", etc. in Hindi or other North Indian languages (Sanskritic) or maybe something similar in Sanskrit, are used for similar reasons.
Where does the Serpent with three heads come from?? What is the origin of that mythology element. Also can you spell it please?
NgWhi, almost certainly comes from a personification of the three headed god on the indo-mediterranean cultures. I have spoken about it in my Trito video if you want to dive into it a little deeper.
I saw a video about how the three-headed dog, Cerberus, was associated with the journey between this life and the next in PIE and American indian stories. In some of these a bear on a bridge rather than a dog and a stream were in evidence.
The biblical creation myth you are right us demythologizing it to a more objective rendering that they probably thought it was originally meant to convey that people mistakingly thought was super literal.
It's like me saying "fire a flame god mated with water a god of moisture and from their union, smoke the god of obscurity was made, and he was rose higher in the heavens than either of his parents as he aged, fire preferred to suckle on Gaia the earth, water preferred to feed off the tables of between sky and Gaia, but smoke rose higher and higher still, until he became old and frail, and died from flying too high into the heavens, being killed by sky, the ruler of the heavens, but as he died he poisoned sky, weakening him, and thus sky lost some of his glory."
That's all a FANTASTICAL way of saying LITERALLY:
➡️ When fire and water collide smoke forms and rises high into the sky and dissipates over time and when it does it leaves some chemical residue in the air that can be toxic to the environment sometimes.
That's a very simplified way of showing what the Israelites did with older base stories of humanity, they weren't saying there wasn't intelligence in different parts of creation whether the heavens, earth whatever, they weren't saying the pagans were wrong in their base understanding of somethings but that they started to literally believe all of it was all different deities and or could be used to abuse other parts of creation destructively to get what they wanted excessively and wastefully, creating endless scores of gods and goddesses where (at least to Hebrews) this just simply wasn't objectively true, in their eyes this was even according to their own myths, there's a set basis of a council of intelligent heavenly entities, and one entity rules over this heavenly court/hosts (a "pantheon"/oligarchy/council/tribunal/Sanhedrin); what was meant to be mysteries used to preserve and pass down ancient wisdom on how to live righteously in harmony with creation and please The source of all creation became abused to grab and seize power irresponsibly and lead humanity towards destructive habits, mindsets and spiritual conditions.
If you even read and look at scholarly opinions on it, the bible is not a fully monotheistic book, it's monotheistic in essence, in that there is only one council of gods and by derivative only one leader of those gods, not multiple subjective ones humans can just create out of thin air and worship as real cause they said so (the ancient Hebrews considered that prideful and arrogant and would eventually lead humans to calling themselves gods equal to the head God or council when we are nowhere near as powerful as them as they are the reason we have these bodies).
If anything it's monolatristic/henotheistic (Elohism/Yahwism suncretized).
This is confirmed as a congruent thought by the sister cultures of mesopotamia and Canaan.
There is a head deity who denies/approves the various actions and deliberations of a council of lesser entities who were made from inactive/useless/"dead" pre-creation substances and made alive by this head deities life-giving power (the life itself being an intelligence akin to the head deities "son" or "emissary" as a king and/or priest is to a deity as a representative), the Hebrews called this "sky -father" type El Elyon or El Shaddai (this title brings to mind a God and the word el in general envisions an ox or bull, connections to the PIE cow motif symbolism), "God, The Highest God" /"God, the Provider (of all) (male ox leads and the female ox provides, so God leads and God provides) before yahwism.
Even the personal name YHWH is a phenomena that may have multiplicity inferred even if not by identity (which may still be, wouldn't affect the faith any less) by complexity of existence at least (the same way we have a slew of emotional states and different thoughts), as YHWH is used in the earliest forms of the Bible right before "Elohim" which is a plural form of "God" so is objectively rendered "Gods", in which as far as I know this is not a poetic expression so it means literally more than one heavenly intelligence is there in the situation, if so YHWH is either the name of the head of them, El ELYON, OR is his Et- which ACTIVATES the other gods from a dead state into a living one which may be more accurate to ugaritic text, one of or analogous to his rightful heir or representative, or is it the name of the actual COUNCIL in unison in harmony with the head deities will (the same way we have a collection of representatives of countries that come together with a head presider to decides what goes through or not and we give this collection of intelligent creatures of the same substance/species the name "The United Nations" or a round table of knights with a king and prince (and maybe queen?), Elohim is the collection of heavenly intelligence that governs everything, the presider is the head who gave them this authority and purpose, the queen, El Shaddai if needed is there to exemplify the beauty and glory the kings rule provides, and the prince Et- is there to show the future security and growth of rulership and the land being ruled over and stave off usurpers, he's also able to act in the kings stead when the king isn't readily around or is sent off to another land to speak for him with his complete authority over the situation.
This is how divinity works in the biblical narrative, they only focused a lot more on the monogamous aspects later on because the same issue of trying to make factions based off other divinities other than the ruling family and using that to commit inhumane crimes in the lands kept happening so theology was forced to evolve that way more heavily.
Could you maybe at some point explain why the Behemoth in Job isn't a hippo? Because that idea is floating around on the internet, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to counter that argument.
I will be talking about this in the next few months, the origins of the "dragon" myth, it is one of my specialist subjects :)
Thank you for presenting this content with respect and sensitivity to others. I appreciate what you have presented. I find it fascinating and a bit sad that we really haven’t grown much from our predecessors. Haha.
And thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
Just great! Wow.!
Thank you so much :)
Ты молодец, на восточноевропейском сегменте интернета я ничего не нашёл. Спасибо тебе, за твой великолепный труд!!
Is perkela in Finnish cognate with the god you mentioned early in the video?
I think the Finnish Thunder God was Ukku, and whilst the name you say sounds like Perkunos, I believe it is actually more akin to a curse word in Finnish.
@@Crecganford it means, the devil. Maybe devils are old god's, being displaced by new ones?
@@mathish1477 This is exactly it. Perkunas/Perkele became kinda synonymous with Ukko, due to similar attributes as sky and thunder gods. And Perkele doesn't mean the devil, but it became a synonym to devil/paholainen/piru in the Finnish translation of The Bible, to discourage Finns from their old pagan ways.
Christianity has had the habit of demonising the deities of surrounding nations, like the Caananite and Babylonian pantheons. The word demon (from the Greek daimon) in itself fell victim to this. If my memory serves me right, daimon was originally a term for spirits and lesser deities, benevolent and malevolent.
@@Marskilius amazing, kitos!!!
@@mathish1477 you are welcome, ole hyvä! Always happy to share folklore and history from my country 😊
Understand that, during the Ice Age, there was no Baltic Sea, but rather the valley of a great river, which valley gradually flooded with the rising of the oceans after the Ice Age, and that that great valley = Ginnunga-gap
As a woman I find it so sad how man “killed” the religion of old that worshipped females and referencing the religious beliefs in a woman based religion as evil, over and over.
In one of your other videos I believe you mentioned Sigmund &his reference of men obsessed\ envy of women being able to create life, pregnancy envy and his need to tell the story of how it was man that created all, including women….
I’ve really enjoyed delving into your videos and channel, thank you
💞🙏🏻
And thank you for watching them, and commenting. I do love reading other's views.
It's still there in Hinduism, India.
@@anixes Yes, but majorly only in Bengal and neighbouring areas where Shaktism sect of Hinduism is followed worshipping Kali or Durga more than any other gods. And, now all the other sects are majorly getting over-shadowed, often unintentionally by "Jai Sree Ram" and Ram Bhakt or Ram worshippers of North Indian Hindi belt. Also, Hinduism in modern India is getting more recent and weirdly superstitious Puranic rather than Old Vedic let alone more sophisticated Vedantic. I'm not religious though but I do have my observations.