I would love to see your treatment of the "King under the mountain" motif. Something like King Arthur, where the hero dies or sleeps until he is needed again at the end of the age. Returning to his land to lead and protect his people. Love your stuff by the way.
One thing I find intriguing is that the Iranian Thraetona and Vedic Traits are both spoken of as healers and physicians. Apollo who slew the serpent Python is also a healer god. The Irish healing god Dian Cecht slays a triple serpent or serpent of 'three turns' that inhabited the body of Meichi which otherwise would have depopulated Ireland and disposed of the remains in the River Barrow where they boiled in its waters. In Old Irish the river was called Berba ('boiling') which has the same etymology of Borvo the ancient Celtic god of healing identified with Apollo, who was also the consort of Damona, a goddess associated with cattle, and the companion of the Celtic Hercules.
You are one the most brilliant mythology and fable/folktale people in youtube. I so seriously enjoy your content--you've no idea. I travel all the time for work (like every freaking week), and my best entertainment when I get time to relax in the hotel is listening to your stuff.
@@Crecganford Your stuff is amazingly well done and researched, and I appreciate your willingness to condense books/larger source works that I might not have time to commit to with my frantic lifestyle. You're awesome.
It's interesting how the echos of these myths are found in Russian fairy tales. The heros are often the third sons, and one of the common villains who kidnaps the princess is Змей Горынич, a three- headed snake/dragon thing, that the hero defeats sometimes with the aid of a magical supernatural being (wolf or horse). Fascinating videos, thank you.
The third son is also a common hero in norwegian folk tales. Esben Askeladd; Esben -> Asbjørn -> god-bear, askeladd -> ash-lad; there’s some powerful Norse imagery; prevails over his older brothers Per (Peter) and Pål (Paulus); tricking trolls and kings on great adventures. So this plus an element of pointing a nose at Christian imagery ?
In Romanian fairytales it's the same, for example in Zâna Zorilor (Fairy of the Dawn) after his brothers fail the 3rd son Petru is on a quest to find a cure for his father the king and has to defeat an originally 3 headed, but later 6 and eventually 12 headed dragon (balaur). He only defeats it after he gets help from his magic talking horse Murgul
reminds me of the golden bird fairytale where the third son is helped by a talking fox, but for some reason the first and second son are malevolent in this rendition
Good lord, I’m Swedish and one of the cartoons I grew up with had an anthropomorphic bear who went out and fought evil. It was often a wolf, but also once against a dragon. He fought with the help of magical “Thunder Honey” that made him super strong. Koryos/Berserk? Edit: he has a bunch of kids, but three of those are triplets, and one is named Teddy.
I am reminded of how Herakles - with the aid of Athena - led in water to free the cattle of Augeas. Augeas then refuses Herakles the gift he was promised and Herakles kills him and takes his cattle anyway (well, one-tenth of it). So here we have a warrior who with the aid of a god and water frees cattle, kills their owner and takes them away. Is this another version of the Trito myth?
21:59 this reminds me a lot of the song of Ullikummi from the hurrian mythology. The song of Ullikummi seems to refer to an eruption of the volcano "Nemrut" circa 6500 BCE at lake Van (the probable origin of the hurrians). At the eruption of Nemrut, a "lava-spine" emerged from the volcano (a lava-spine is a stone-"pole" - this happens when the lava cools down and hardens faster than it is pushed out of the volcano). Now this lava-spine was approximately 0.7 miles long, so it actually reached the clouds. In the song of Ullikummi, a mountain gives birth to a stone-demon "Ullikummi", that emerges "like a spear" to the heavens, rips apart the clouds and attacks the sky-gods. The storm-god Teššub then killed the stone-demon by cutting his legs of (which seemingly describes the collapse of the lava-spine). The story here has a red "reed" with a lot of fire and flames. That also sounds a lot like a lava-spine. The stories also share the emergence from a water (I suspect that the lava-spine emerged from the crater-lake).
Depending how you interpret things, I think this eruption could be the origin of - the rebellion of satan - the Fall of Adam - especially since it looks like a garden inside the crater. Also, the hurrians settled near todays Mossul, where the biblical Shinar is believed to be (where mankind settled after the deluge). By the way, the biblical deluge ended at Mount Ararat, which is only ~60 miles away from Lake Van and which is also a volcano. - the tower of babel (there are even intermediate versions between Volcanic eruption and tower of babel, where the tower is built on a mountain, by a pharaoh named "Nemrud". The tower of babel in the bible is believed to be built by the rebellious King Nimrod. The hebrew word "NMRD" even translates to "rebellious"
Also in German, Suisse and French fairytales it is often the third son , who at first sight seems to be stupid, but has a warm heart and is well connected to the natural powers personified by animals or men with special magic powers . They help him to kill the dragon and to free the princess which is by magic often in love with the dragon. Sometimes there are three or even twelve princesses and dragons.
Just wanted to leave a note and say I found your channel last week and it's everything I could want in a channel about myths. I also wanted to compliment your storytelling skills, you do justice to the craft!
Fascinating and informative in equal measures! i have to be honest, it took me a few days to get through this video because I needed to sit and think about all of the key parts separately before they could come together in my mind. Your have a new follower in me, phenomenal content delivered beautifully!!!
Damn! In Vedic (Hindu) tradition, the first man was called Manu. He was from a generation of progenitors that populated every planet. Manu was the one that started the human population on Earth (Earth's deity is Bhumi, a Goddess in the form of a cow).
It's interesting to me how beads of this story can even be found in myths from Japan, specifically the slaying of the Yamato no Orochi. A warrior who was one of a triplet of siblings, Susanoo (although not human but a god), defeated a multi-headed serpent through an offering of an intoxicating beverage, in this case not to a 3rd party god, but to the serpent itself, although the Yamato-no-Orochi is sometimes syncretized with a god as well, in order to free a group of women. It's certainly quite distant from most of the other examples of this basic myth, but it also is geographically, so that makes sense. As for how the myth travelled there in the first place, I'm not aware of any such myth existing in Chinese mythology, although it very well could, but assuming it doesn't, I assume the more direct way would be through Siberia, maybe or probably through the Ainu people.
@@janeybusiness6601 If it was Silk Road, again, you'd expect there to be a version of the Myth in Chinese as well, seeing how China was the main-destination on that end of the Silk Road, but I'm not aware of any such myth.
@@stynershiner1854 Again, I'm not aware of any dragon like that in Chinese myth though, which you'd kinda expect to be transferred along with Buddhism to China as well if that was really what brought it to Japan, and then considering that this myth is very much tied to Japans own original mythology, which while mixed with buddhism in places still has its own unique aspects as well. Not to mention that Japan imported its buddhism from China, not directly from India, so again, most of what sticked in Japan should've previously sticked in China. And then there's also the bit that the only Indian version of this myth I know is of Hindu origin, and I'm not aware of it having any relevance in Buddhism, so it obviously wouldn't have traveled along with it.
This is one my favourite videos of yours that I have watched, because in this one you really break down the comparative study of related elements in different historically attested myths to show how the reconstruction was arrived at. I think this format is strong. Thanks!
Sitting here as usual binge listening to Crecganford while I work - its always a pleasure and so interesting. And then WHAM suddenly there's my photo o.0 HAH! I did not see that one coming but that surely added a bit of extra to this particular video for me :D Thank you for your always great content Jon and for adding that extra work of subtitles - they really do help a lot :)
Thank you for sharing your amazing knowledge. Another thank you, in that you are the first person who I have ever heard use the word "whilst" -My new favorite word if I can only figure out when and where to weave it into a conversation. And possess that warrior spirit to attempt such a daunting task. The word is like a three headed serpent, How, When and Where, to stutter that word, without the assistance of Soma or Mead or Jimson. Anyway, another Excellent video!
I may be unique here, but I am using these videos as inspiration for a fantasy setting. Creating a pre-culture is pretty cool for designing a more interesting culture for fantasy peoples
There are many people who have ion the past, even JRR Tolkien took the Old Norse myths to make Lord of the Rings. And I too am writing a novel based on these myths, although I am years away. I think if anyone uses real myth to influence their stories, it makes them feel more authenticate, makes the reader think that little more about “what if…”, and so I wish you good luck in your work and let us know how you get on with it :)
Found your channel a week ago and have been fascinated with it since. Really love the content man. I was curious about some of the more, Bleak aspects of early religion, especially around the Black sea. I understand that it's hard to say exactly what idea's sprouted from were especially given how strange this family tree of belief is, but I was curious about early doomsday beliefs or predictions in stories, Also early idea's of reincarnation and the afterlife. Again love the content.
My next video, released this Saturday will talk about the meaning of death amongst the PIE by looking at the Ferryman. That may interest you then.. and I will look at more of these things as soon as I can :)
The information you give is amazing! I can relate the story of the dragon slayer to something of the Lombard legends. There's a story of a dragon/serpent, more precisely a water serpent, living in the Gerundo lake, which was located between Milan, Bergamo and Cremona provinces. Its name was Tarantasio in Italian, Tarantasi in Lombard language and somehow it reminds me the Celtic god Taranis. There are a few different versions of its legend, all have in common that it lived in the lake until it was drained and used to attack boats and eat kids. All around the shores of the lake there are toponyms linked to it (i.e. Taranta in the communality of Cassano d'Adda, or "snake street" or similar in other places). One legend says that was killed by Ottone Visconti the first lord of Milan, another by Saint George and some others. The same dragon/snake is in the heraldry of the Visconti family (see also AlfaRomeo symbol). The only difference is that the dragon is always with one head in these legends. There are also some long bones, believed to belong to the dragon for centuries by local communities, kept in 3 different churches: in Almenno San Salvatore, in Sombreno in the municipality of Paladina and a third one in Pizzighettone, but studies obviously found out that those belong to whales or mammoths. There is a painting of a dragon in a church in "San Pietro al monte" in Civate with 7 heads, but that is a different story I reckon. There are some legends of dragons with 3 heads in Lombardy, but not apparently related to Tarantasi. For i.e. the legend of Alpe Piana dragon and Grosotto dragon legend, killed by a tall man with blonde hair and blue eyes. It would be nice if you can research in this areas. I hope that this info is helpful. Thank you.
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment, it is appreciated. And I will keep an eye out for these things as I love trying to understand the stories of particular locals, it all helps with research, Thanks again!
Man, I just realized how close the norse creation myth is to the PIE one, in norse myth of course, Ymir the primordial giant is killed and his body parts are used to make the world, strikingly similar to Manus and Yemo
Exactly, it is probably the closest version to the original that still exists today. You may want to check out this video if you haven't already: th-cam.com/video/YJVPXosPF8A/w-d-xo.html
Remember that the proto-indoeuropean myth is reconstructed from those such as the Norse, including Ymir as a clue for the name Yemo. So it's not especially surprising, it's kinda like brothers being surprised at how much dna they share with their own father. But yes it is similar and a strong case for it having a common original myth with the others
I find it interesting that the very act of cattle-stealing may have led to the necessity for the myths. Cattle-stealing, as you pointed out, goes both ways, and so our fear of having something taken from us generates a need for an explanation, if not comfort. Doing the stealing ourselves generates a sense of accomplishment and pride, what would be akin to earning some large profit or accolade in what we perceive to be a legitimate occupation, while being stolen from would generate a sense of failure. We'd need two figures to distinctly represent these two major presences in our lives, and they'd fit squarely with good/evil, life/death, and other diametrically opposed concepts central to our sense of identity and relation to the world around us.
I love your channel. So much interesting content. Have you ever looked at the Myths of the Celtiberians? I see you rarely talk about those myths which I asume must be periferic, and thus quite modified from the original versions. I would love to hear your take on that. thanks and congrats
I was talking to a colleague about this the other day, about where Celts come from, and how do we define them that would make every one happy. It is something I want to do as it plays into the history of the Britons, and I am really keen to do something on this too. So it will happen, but you may need to give me some time to be confident that what I present is a strong case. Thank you
These have been excellent.... thank you very much. The "youth with eyes like suns", seems to have had a reference in the diagram of the three headed monster with two suns in his belly..............
Awesome lecture/video, exceptionally thorough. I have a bit of a quarel with the use of Beowulf here. Or at least, the way in which it was represented. Beowulf (written by Anglo-Saxon monks) has long been recognized by most scholars as a literary fabrication which presents authentic pre-Christian Germanic cultural values and mores but not any authentic oral tradition of mythology. It is what we would nowdays probably call a historical fiction - one or two historical characters, some references to known folklore, but otherwise literary. That doesn't mean Beowulf's fight with the Dragon has less significance to your thesis here -- the story is rooted in everything you're tracing out. But I think recommending it to readers as an example of "Scandinavian Mythology" is a misrepresentation. That being said, I would suggest Sigurd and Fafnir as a reference to an authentic Scandinavian legend.
Thanks for watching, and taking the time to comment, I do enjoy a good discussion on points like this. Myself and many of my peers feel Beowulf is of Scandinavian origin, probably Denmark, and so hence why I felt it was worthy of the representation of Scandinavian Mythology, plus it has better examples of the motifs I was looking for than the tales of Sigurd and Fafnir, which are fine stories in their own right and I agree are probably more easily accepted as being Scandinavian. But I have seen other scholars use Beowulf in the same way and so feel comfortable with that (I think Lincoln did, and I have a lot of time for him although no one is perfect I accept).
Another hugely informative and inspiring vid, thanks Jon! Loving the really helpful pointing to sources, even if I haven't got a clue of when I can fit them in! Also, since I'm loving your videos so much and have heard of Patreon even if I haven't signed up yet, I wonder do you use it/have thought about using it? I'm enjoying your efforts so much that I feel the need to give back to help you continue your work here.
Thank you for those kind words, and Patreon sounds interesting, although I'm not too sure what I can offer over and above what I already do. But I will have a think, or let me know if you have any ideas. That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!
In my book, I discuss a Russian fairy tale with three brothers- one in which the third brother slays dragons that the others are not able to overcome. It's a remarkably widespread narrative, if you look for it hard enough. Thraetona certainly appears to be one of the most archaic figures to be preserved in Persian mythology.
I have dipped into mythology and its ancient origins on and off over many decades. Each time I dip back in I feel let down. I've never been able to connect with any of these ancient fables; cattle raids, dragon-slaying, the magic hunt, the wounded king- yawn. I yearn for something more profound - what am I missing? I think the most moved have ever been is in the Epic of Gilgamesh when Enkidu dies and is mourned by Gilgamesh but maybe that it's because we have the complexities of a written story available to us.
That’s a shame, although the stories shred through oral traditional rarely have the detail and magic of literature. Thanks for watching, and taking the time to leave a comment, it is appreciated.
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There are many stories, mostly in nors culture, where the hero is the third brother
Yes, I haven't been able to link them etymologically, but there is something there that seems more than coincidence. Thank you for watching, and for taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
Hey Jon, I have a few questions. 1. The dragon slaying myth is also know in ancient cultures of the Middle East. Is that due Indo European influence or is there a commen source before the PIE? 2. How does the cattle raid of Hermes, fit the other cattle raid in Greec mythology? 3. The tree sales snakes were also seen on an ivory artfifact of the Mal'ta site 24.000 BP. According to Joseph Campbell this is, togetter with birdfigurines a sign of early shamisn.
Questions 2 & 3 need substantive answers so will have to wait, maybe for a video, but 1 there is either PIE influence, or influence from a common pre-PIE ancestor culture. I would guess the later due to the age of serpent myths
@Morgan Allen While he used the term farming, he did seem to be fairly consistent in describing them as pastoralists, only describing the PIE speakers as farming livestock, not crops.
@Morgan Allen Serpents are a synonym for the cycle of the year and seasons, they are significant because they shed their skin and renew, it's part of what the biting it's own tail that you see with ouroboros with the gnostics and also with Egyptian Ra and the snake orbiting the sun, the serpent therefore can also be seen as a symbol of chaos when the cycle of the year and soil fertility falls into disarray or famine. (it certainly is in celtic paganism, wheel of the year and mythology).
Well except I focused on the raiding aspect and I really need some polishing of the idea and knowledge of PIE myths. But basically thecreation and raiding myth reflected the real life acquisition of livestock as a major shift in indo eurpean speaking people's culture and eventual success that allowed spread thier culture and language across the super continent. The raid I believe has been rewritten and reflects thier claiming as thier own the right to own cattle and any one else as thieves subject to raid so the gift from the gods could be reclaimed by the people who hold the right sacrifices. I even thought the snake was representative of the early farmers that first introduced them to cattle. Had my eye on the people of gobleki teppe since thier evidence they held some ritual possibly to some snake diety or spirit.
I'm reminded of the pre-germanic Beaker people with their warrior culture and ritual mead drinking. In the past, warriors would drink alcohol before battle. The 'drink offered', from which the warrior 'receives strength' from the god has got to be alcohol. I love how simple these stories are when boiled down: some young guys knock back some mead before fighting the neighbouring tribe and stealing their cattle... or anything that 'produces milk'.
When you said that "Manus" means "man," "Yemo" means "two," and "Trito" means "three," it reminded me of something I learned in Japanese where "hito" means "person" and "hito(tsu)" means "one."
Also, in Mahabharata, Arjun is the third Pandava. He is defied by Indra when god Agni sought his help in burning Khandava forest. Later, during his exile, Arjun receives all the weapons after he had fought Shiva and received Pasupatastra, Shiva's weapon. Oddly, the name Pasupatastra derives from Paspati: Lord of beasts of cattle. Pasus: cattle.
Hi! Awesome video! Quick question, though. When you talk about the spread of PIE, you always talk about how other peoples wanted to interact with the PIE speakers for their success and adopted their gods willingly. While I agree that would likely have happened often, I'm curious as to why you never mention conflict as a way the language and mythology spread. I mean, we do know for sure that this happened with later languages and religions, and we do know tribes and kingdoms fought even back then.
That is a good question, and I do hint at conflict here, between the PIE and those who worshipped the 3 headed god. But we have little proof of any battles or war. So whilst there were almost certainly battles and wars, it is really hard to prove, and therefore difficult to make a compelling case. Although the spread of DNA may help with offering some evidence. So that is why I'm always cautious. Thank you for your continued support, it is appreciated, and please ask more questions, perhaps I'll be able to make a Q&A video to help others :)
@@Crecganford Its probably much like the European settling of the Americas. Mostly good but with a few bad situations of violence etc. Not all one or the other
@@Crecganford especially since it wasn't something that happened in a matter of a week or two. It probably was generational. Especially if the Germanic tradition of the 1st two sons inheriting their fathers land and then subsequent brothers being forced to expand is older than the Germanic peoples.
@@MrRabiddogg Yes, I'm sure that influenced things, Europe exploded into multiple regions around 4,500 years ago, from what was a comparatively empty place. And this expansion of existing families that were already established probably seeded most of this.
Perhaps the myth of Trito is the myth for the common man; he only became a warrior after being given something by his king. I have heard myths such as Ansipattle & the Storwyrm where a humble lad goes out to battle some fearsome beast and through cunning defeats the beast and wins the hand of a princess. I suppose it could be the myth of how a man is meant to live his life, as an echo of the first dragon slayer, he receives a gift from his father then goes out to make his way in the world, proving his worth and becoming a man, thus earning himself a wife. The king then grants boons to his warriors who go fight for him and recover the stolen cattle which can then be sacrificed by the priests to help maintain the cosmic order and gain prosperity / fertility which gives the people more cows and so the cycle goes round and round both on a cosmic level and on a worldy level. Thor was the god most norse prayed too. Perhaps all 'commoners' in PIE culture saw themselves as warriors.
I had to listen this video "with only one ear". I will watch it carefully as soon as I can, but I'd like to share a clue right away: In Croatia and in some parts of Serbia, the livestock is called "treasure" to this day. I wouldn't have spotted that connection in a million years were it not for this video. Thank you. Cheers! P.S. Please do increase the volume of your videos if you can.
Three is a great model for teaching and writing. A single point is just an observation. It could be random and indicates little. A second observation establishes a line. That is a pattern. You could guess the line continues but it would only be a guess. A third observation, if it is on the line, confirms the pattern. It represents infinity. Running 3 times around Troy means Achilles could have run infinitely around Troy and not catch Hector. 3 repetitions is shorthand for endless. 3 heads could mean endless heads as in an enemy that seems to have uncountable numbers of warriors. Just a thought.
Here because of the movie Prometheus, where the human AI speaks with the Engineer who seeded human life on Earth, in a dialect of Proto-Indo-European. To hear it spoken moved me, it struck a deep chord with me for some reason. It was like I was hearing an archaic language I used to speak for the first time in ages, and I’ve been researching it since. I don’t know how to explain it but it sounds so familiar, deep down inside. Glad I found your channel, I sub’d. (I know it’s Hollywood but they did their homework, listen to it. It is absolutely spine-chilling): th-cam.com/video/hRfx05qKVxg/w-d-xo.html This movie (mythologically) explains the creation of man, which ties perfectly with what you’re saying. Engineers of mankind who seeded life, took a baby to their home world (Jesus/proto human-saving warrior) to remind mankind the meaning of life, only to watch their creation demolish itself after slaying him on the cross. At which point the creators give up on their creation.
Yes, I felt the same way too. The translation you saw was by Carlos Quilles, who has written a book on PIE language (the Prometheus version) and whose work includes the books and maps I refer to in my Who Were the Proto Indo-European videos. And if you have any questions please ask :)
@@watermelonlalala I'm quoting the written script that was cut. They said all that pretty much word for word in the written dialogue between the Engineer and the the humans. I just thought it was a pretty well thought out story
@@watermelonlalala they didn't, it was the Engineers who designed them. When they were displeased with their creation they set a course for Earth with the black goo virus but didn't make it before being stopped by the alien xenonorphs.
Vritra the dragon was slayed by the vajra dari (lighting possessor ) Idra góð of indo-iranic people my favorite story of all time Also in the rigveda he was called varitrantha (Dragon Slayer). good video by the way continue the journey
Thank you for commenting. I’ve just read Vedic Vrtra by Lahiri and that explains this in far more detail, so I’ll probably do another video on this soon :)
I wonder if the myth of newborn Hermes, and his theft of Apollo’s cattle, is related to this one? Another thoughts also occurs: perhaps Heracles was originally created as a way to show how several older heroes were in fact one hero, which the Greeks could then own, but that in reality they were all older heroes from different tribes/cultures. I also have questions about the aboriginal people mentioned here who worshipped a triple headed god (perhaps Semitic and eventually an idea recalled by early Christians for the Trinity?) or perhaps related to how Poseidon or the Ocean are called the Third.
Thank you for watching, and I will answer these questions as I make more videos, as it is fascinating how many of these things are linked together and yet we don’t realise it.
I feel I should share this, as I have been studying archetypes given by Ra in the Law of One material. In it, one of them refers to Strength and not to give up because in that Strength it typically takes the third time to succeed. After I had that thought, while staring out a the window, a humming bird just appeared then flew away. In a way that told me my thought was correct that the third name in this story is the Strength archetype, and means not to give up, it took the third try to beat the dragon or the beast. It was not the name of the hero.
That doesn't align well with the evidence I present, but I do appreciate any sensible discussion on the topic, and so thank you for watching and taking the time to comment.
I’d love it if you could read The Immortality Key by Brian Murarescu and then offer insight into the ancient use of soma, haoma, and the possible ceremonies at Gobeckli Tepi discussed in the book.
I read that about four months ago, and The Mushroom an the Sacred Cross. Both are interesting, although both do have some significant flaws in, but I do believe there is something to these theories and I will be making a video about it as soon as I can.
I'd wager that proto-humans were cowboys and ranchers first. They then developed into fully fledged farmers as they figured out how to sow fields with plows hitched to pack animals and dung for fertilizer. I'd imagine that the Russian Steppe is probably very similar to the North American plains. The plains served as pastures for huge herds of wild cattle and bison and the humans would migrate between semi-permanent hunting lodges as they followed the herds on their north to south migratory movements. These would be familiar areas that they could navigate easily to with access to fresh water and possibly even some escarpments or natural terrain that cattle could be herded into and protected. These lodges would eventually stockpile enough supplies and living structures to serve as year round encampments that started to actively trade with another and evolve agricultural practices.
I know im late yo this channel but enjoying it immensely. Im interested in knowing how these myths were experienced contemporaneously, were they strongly held beliefs about the make up of the world, similar to how we would consider science now, or if it was more like a religious belief, an explanation for things beyond one's experience. Essentially, did people in that time believe they may one day meet a dragon or did they know it was just a story?
That is a great question and the answer really does depend on when and where you were when you heard about dragons. But it is fair to say some people still believe they exist, so it also depends on the intellectual bias the person in question has.
Yes, I understand, a few people say this. That's why I transcribe all my videos allowing the captions/subtitles to be accurate. So please feel free to use them :)
I want to see you and peterson engaging a conversation ... will be very very interesting to see the points in common, grey areas and the points were history and Tiefenpsychologie don´t mach
What are your thoughts and opinions on much older dragon-slaying myths such as that found in Sumero-Akkadian myths? I find it super interesting that there are a bunch of similarities between the Mesopotamian and Indo-European myths, one in particular is how Marduk and his brethern slew their creator-goddess grandmother, Tiamat, and created the world from her body parts. The parallels with the Odin and Ymir creation sacrifice myth is bone-chilling considering the former had been written in stone millenia prior. Great work on the video!
I cover some of that in my video on the Enuma Elish, and how that isn't strictly a dragon slaying myth in the typical sense. And how it related to the Old Norse myths. But I will look at other dragon slaying myths soon.
To see the fourth group, look to the servants, helpers, pages, grooms, charioteers. The occupations of the heros/gods in disguise (like the Pandavas or in the Chinese book "Banks and Shores"/"All Men Are Brothers"
Dumezil always thought there was a fourth class, but I'm not sure this can be proved. Although I like the gods in disguise idea, that is interesting. Let me ponder. Thank you for your comment, very much appreciated.
I really like your videos. I believe that all myths related to the creation or origin of humanity as well as its destruction suggest real events. Is it possible that they originate with the survivors of the Younger Dryas impact? The description of the Ragnarök, the myth of the Heavenly Cow as well as other similar myths about destruction by fire or water seems like the eyewitness account of the effects of what could be a global catastrophe of that magnitude.
I will talk about my theories here on post Younger Dryas-pre-PIE as soon as I can, as well as before that. The dragon was certainly alive in myths before the YD event, see my Early Words video, but the cow is more likely to be a post EEF event due to farming. And I also hope to touch on this on another video in the next few weeks that look at the work of Homer, but I don't want to give any spoilers away.
@@Crecganford Thank you very much, I'll wait for your next video. I see a relationship between the serpent or the dragon of the myths and the vision of a comet and its tail. Meltwater Pulses seem to be the origin of most of the Flood Myths around the world. Since you mention Homer It is interesting that Homer's Troy is created by Tros, Grandson of Dardanus (Dardanus' Deluge of the Ancient Greek Flood Myths).
When one understands the protoHebrew creation myth from a "serpent seedline" perspective rather than the modern orthodoxy of the majority of denominations, it largely aligns with this common PIE idea as well. The "serpent" in the garden of Eden was Hebrew Nephesh which means seducer/sorceror, but may have come to mean serpent later. If this seducer seduced Eve to create the serpent seed line, then the warriors and priests of that society which held that myth could hold that belief as justification for retribution as this discussed with the warriors being the cattle raiders. This viewing of those tribes subjugated (the Canaanites in the Hebrew histories) as worthy of retribution was even more extreme as often the livestock AND women were dedicated for destruction (antisanctified), despite the recognition by the people as tempting. This is perfectly demonstrated in the book of Judges. Furthermore, the Hebrew and Aramaic book of Daniel and the Greek book of Revelation perpetuate this idea of multiheaded monsters (not gods, but recognized as being treated as gods by foreigners) being conquered by a hero, though the role of hero is in the son of God (the second) rather than the third (Adam). I'd contend that where there is major difference between the PIE and the protoHebrew, may be explained as that before the great flood (assuming non-planetary in this case), were serpent seedline theory to be accurate, there were Adamic Kenites and Adamic Sethians. Think of the Kenites (descendants of Cain as descended from Nephesh and Eve according to this theory) as the descendants of sorceror/seducers, but still as ethnic cousins to the Sethians. The Sethians that maintained their faithfulness to sacrifice to their true God had descendants explained by the Hebrews as the Japhethites, Semites, and Hamites. The flood story was explained as wiping out those in the Adamic world that descended from these monstrous, Grendel-like children of 'Satanic' (enemy) forces. Now consider this... if in Genesis 6 the famous passage prefacing the flood, it describes the "sons of god" (Ben Elohim) mixing with the daughters of man (Awdawm in Hebrew... descendants of Adam, thus Sethians), the issue of how these beings are viewed becomes apparent. Somewhere between God and man, there are other beings that aren't quite mortal, we are not sure of their free agency or their origin, and we aren't sure of their level of physicality, but one could easily see how if these possible descendants of those unions between Ben Elohim and Ben Awdawm traced their roots, they might see themselves as gods, whereas the humble Adamites preserved through the flood saw it as blasphemy, that their mixing was wicked, and that the other cultures they encountered were perpetuating that corruption. Now this is speculation, but etymonline cant trace (water serpent) further than the old Norse, but what if this came from what the Hebrews also knew as El? The confusion regarding how a term used for "the godhead" in a "monotheist" religion could have a plural sense persists to this day, but maybe it is more connected to an understanding as God's breath being given to Adam and whatever role the "other beings" (whether fallen angels, demons, or some mysterious 'serpent-people' related to Nephesh) in creating a hybrid line that survived on the outskirts of the flood area and infiltrated the remainder of the Adamic line through the Canaanites once they mixed with the "giants"/Rephaim/Nephilim. One often missed part of the Bible as a whole is a failure on the part of the Israelites to annihilate those descendants of seducers and punishment of the Israelites and ultimately Christians by being subjugated by worldly powers, especially those multiheaded beasts as empires like Babylon and Rome that were connected with how the Israelites viewed their ultimate adversaries... the Edomites. And the Edomites were said to have been a more recently branched line of uncorrupted Adamites, but that forsook their inheritance and mixed with the Canaanites in defiance of their patriarch. This Edomite line, by the time of Christ and conclusion of the last temple period, was known to have finally infiltrated the last stronghold of Israelites in Judea when the Judahite-Judean Hasmonean the Edomites, but forced them to "convert" rather than slay them. The conversion paved the way for the Edomites, by means of Antipater (father of Herod the Great) to usurp the Judean priesthood and local governance and replace the Israelite faith with one corrupted by Babylonian paganism and Edomite blasphemy (false identity claim), which became empowered and sponsored by the Roman state. This Edomite-Roman system/beast is predicted before its conception in prophecy in the book of Daniel and expounded upon by the prophecy in Revelation.
I m wondering (as I m just starting my adventure with indoeuropean mythologies) about Trito (years ago I've read about the discovery of "Many, Yemo, Trito" as a triad of proto-heroes) Does Trito should be considered as 3d function hero in Dumezilian IE triad, or as 2d function hero - the warrior - in this triad? Or maybe just those two triads have no connections at all? :) Thank you for any answer :)
The King encompasses all the tripartite functions and so isn’t counted as a function, so priest/sovereign is the head, and the warrior (and so Trito) is the second and the body. I hope that helps. And thank you for watching and all your comments :)
@@Crecganford I m a bit confused here now :) becouse previously I thought that Yemo is the warrior - king (Yemshid, Yima) and Trito is well, "third brother", "youngest brother", peasant hero. But you say that Trito is the warrior?
I am so happy to have found your channel. I'm a historian (that's what I went to school for) and have a fascination with indo-european...well...everything. This is wonderful and I spend part of my time looking at your bookshelf. Such interesting and well though out videos. 💙
I wish they were more accessible, I truly do. Some I have only managed to get hold of through my University, and others were over £100 each. It's such a shame.
@@Crecganford I will have to look into going through the University to get access to books. I hadn't considered that. The price doesn't shock me, I have a fair number of paleoanthropology books that aren't cheap either.
Interesting thing is linking all those mith with geographical location of PI people and remembering that the flood mith comes from there too, and in fact there WAS a flooding in the area that now is Black Sea floor. Once was inhabitated land
First video of yours I listen: great, as in really informative and interesting content! But! I’m having a hard time with the constant sound off whenever you pause - fix that mic!
I love how this myth seem ro repeat even into the same mythologies. Python snake slaying, typhon snake slaying, ladon snake slaying, delphyne yep this too. It somehow feel as if they all came to different background but with the same origin and then they had to stick the together in the greek mythology.
Thank you for watching, and over the next few months I'll release at least two more videos looking at the similarities and origins of this type of myth.
So you are you a proponent of the Anatolian hypothesis for the origins of PIE? I figured you'd be inline with David Anthony on that one but I guess I must have missed it in other videos. I like the steppe theory but maybe I should look at other again
I believe that the Red-Sea miracle in the book of Exodus is another instance of this Chaoskampf. It's just a bit more obscure - but there, too, you have a Storm-god (JHWH is in large parts a Storm-god) using a Wind against ... well against the sea itself instead of against a sea-GOD. Instead of splitting the sea-GOD, the sea itself is split. Neberu passes through the center of Tiamat, the sea-goddes - Moses passes through the center of the sea itself. Afterwards, Moses gets stone tablets just like Marduk. Moses gets them ON a mountain, Marduk gets them FROM a mountain-goddess. Marduks stone-tablets make him the ruler of the universe, Moses stone tablets make the hebrews invincible. Just like Neberu, Exodus is connected to the spring-equinox (a.k.a. Passover, which is the literal translation of "Neberu" from akkadian). In Exodus, 600.000 hebrews left Egypt. According to Enuma Elis, there were 600 gods. Even the names of the locations in Exodus are equal to the names of the corresponding gods in the Ugaritic Ba'al cycle. Speaking of the Ugaritic Ba'al cycle - Ba'als father El had 70 children - Josephs family had 70 members. And Isaiah 51, 9-10 spells it out quite clearly, that Exodus IS the Chaoskampf.
That is an interesting thought about the Red Sea, and likewise your thoughts about Exodus. Thank you for watching and sharing them. You maybe interested in my next video where I start talking about dragon myths, and specifically Tiamat and Vrtra, as it helps support the argument that the Mesopotamians knew these myths from an earlier source.
The cattle element, in my mind reinforces the notion that the conflict is an allegory of the Water Cycle, and the droughts, rains, and foods that meant starvation or survival. It doesn't surprise me that those cultures who held domesticated bovines to feature them as the prize at stake, stolen but gotten back by the sky hero. The Native American Uktena v Thuderbird, or combined (like the asian Lung) in the feathered-serpent gods. While no cattle feature in the conflict between Uktena serpent, and Thunderbird, their conflicts still seem to be used to rationalize rains, storms, floods, and droughts. But, particularly in the urban mesoamerican civilizations, with their feathered serpent gods, non the less often exist in counterpoint to Chak Ek, the Morning Star, or another more human-like god of wind and rain, in an uneasy partnership that leads them into a celestial drama, one that often seems to either endanger, confine, or steel-away the Corn Goddess, or (at least in one tale) in which the cosmic drama, or celestial wrath acts as the cause and origins of the Corn Goddess as the savior of humanity. In these Mesoamerican takes in which the Feathered Serpent fuses the features of Thunderbird and Water-Snake, many features of the proto Indoeuropean myth can still be seen, though I can't imagine tracking the tales migration linguistically (presumably to 100k, but maybe later), or even to the Jomon/Ainu. I know of no Water-Cycle Snake&Bird fight stories in Astra-Aboriginal folklore (though I'm not all that familiar). Ps. Have you noticed the euroshamanic "three worlds" cosmology, in which the physical world were the realm bridging the polarities of the chthonic underworld of food, flesh, desires, and fertility, and the abstract sky world of mythic heroes and shining gods of ideas, knowledge, and words, brought together in, or suspended between those worlds is the lived world of human life on earth. At least thats how its been painted to me by at least a few sources that made an impression (though it is a rather tidy cosmology to have arisen in this form organically).
Just did a quick scan through of Rig Veda & it seems the dragon/serpent motif is almost always combined with the Bull symbol in most of the passages I read, although if I wanted a more thorough understanding I'd probably have to refer to some Theosophical books. The Cow it seems represents a slightly later stage or lower realm in the evolution/manifestation of the cosmos, whereas the Dragon is the primordial unconscious (the deep) from which the gods arise at the beginning of each new Manvantara. Keep in mind that there are different translations available...the translation I have of RV 10:8:8 reads: "Well-skilled to use the weapons of his Father, Aptya, urged on by Indra, fought the battle. Then Trita slew the foe SEVEN-RAYED, three-headed, and freed the cattle of the Son of Tvastar." Note that Agni is also called the 'seven rayed' & 'triple headed' (1:146:1). The Monad (One), the Logos, the 'realm of speech' as the Rig Veda says, is known variously as Agni, Indra, Soma, Surya etc...are all the same God (RV 1:164:46) & are called the Bull or the 'chief bull' at the head of the cattle (gods, planets etc). Its interesting that Agni who is called the Bull is also compared to a serpent (1:79:1, 1:141:7). Soma, like Agni (fire) has a physical form & an ideal or archetypal counterpart. As God it is the 'central point of heaven' (1:43:9, 9:12:4) & working through the Milch-Cow (mother nature), streams forth as a thousand streams/rays of light. Agni-Indra is both Bull & the Cow in the beginning as the Monad (10:5:7) but become spirit & matter as the universe unfolds. Anyway its interesting what one can discover by doing a word search :)
The third son is also a common hero in norwegian folk tales. Esben Askeladd; Esben -> Asbjørn -> god-bear, askeladd -> ash-lad; there’s some powerful Norse imagery; prevails over his older brothers Per (Peter) and Pål (Paulus); tricking trolls and kings on great adventures. So this third-ness plus an element of pointing a nose at Christian imagery ?
Another Bulgarien story in short. A father had three sons and the lived in the upper earth. They haved a magical tree that gives magical fruits. A three headed serpent stoll the fruits and the third brother chased the serpent to the lower earth where the serpent was blocking the waters for the people and they have no water. Also the serpent stoll a beautiful girl. The third son killed the serpent and resqued the girl and freed the waters. Then an eagle helped him to go back to the upper earth, but he have to feed him whit pieces of his own flesh to do so. In the past the eagle symbolised a shaman, a sky soul, a person who was able to go whit his spirit to the sky. So I find references to trito the dragon slayer but also to the creation myth the body must be sacrifice to the shaman (priest) so the order to be restored. So the strory is for a boy that is going to be a warrior and he goes to his subconsciousness (the lower earth) to kill his demons and the have to make a sacrifice and whit the help of the shaman priest to come back to upper earth. Perhaps... Or what do you think?
@@Crecganford i have a question. If the word cattle means female that gives milk, and it was substituted whit princess lately how do we know that it was a cattle that feedet the two brothers and not some female substance like the mother-godes?
Intresting Trita myths. Afaik, there are little to no references of baltic trita myths, but and this is me being a very big hopeful here, there might've been, as one of the Old Dukes from the Lithuanian statehoods infancy, was called Treniota, who conspired regicide on the 1st and last, to date, King of Lithuania, Mindaugas. Maybe its a false cognate, but it does sound similar, and "trečias" means third in Lithuanian, not to mention the man was a Duke, so a man of power and great stature, allegedly, thus it would make sense to name him after a heroic figure, would it not?
There are some primitive motifs still within the story, suggesting its roots are old. The ending in particular is a reflex of the Indo-European creation myth, and Cu is described as possessing Lyssa (wolfish rage) at one point. A great story, and one I really want to make a video about.
It wasn`t a knight it was an Italian plumber ;-) 0:32 That was a good reference 26:48 Man that shit really sucks! Imagine you gather all the 7 Dragonballs and then Shen Long is given you nothing. Paris at least could choose between the world, wisdom, or beauty. But if Ygg means Odin do you want to say that Odin was playing with himself for 9 days to gain wisdom?
That's a great question as I should really clarify it, so my understanding is that a Yasna is a book of prayers and hymns, and a Yahst is a hymn within it. So they could be interchangeable if referring to a hymn number within a book, you could say Yasna 1.2.3 as well as Yahst 1.2.3. I hope that helps with any confusion I may have caused :)
@@Crecganford ahh thank you !! in fact i seem to have discovered the wikipedia page, but i think i wasn't finding it because it seems to be Yasht not Yahst ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasht
I am greatly interested in the electric universe theory of the cosmos and tend to look at all myths through that filter. More myths, more correlation, at least in my eyes. Check out Thunderbolts Project. See what you think.
There may not be an excavator powerful enough to dig it up, or it may not have been created or passed down due to the low group sizes, but it would be interesting to have some idea whether there was a pre-cattle, pre-agriculture version of the dragon slayer story; a story shared among hunter-gatherers. And, what would be the treasure won for the hunter-gatherers through triumph in this battle?
Has any connection been drawn between the association between indigenous people where the PIE speakers lived with the Indian nagas? Assuming I'm not completely off base in referring to the nagas as serpentine.
@@Crecganford That was kinda what I was getting at. Were they a less focused iteration of the serpent imagery they associated with other peoples, related to the more focused myths that evolved into singular dragons, or an unrelated myth that just happened to share the theme of serpents.
I would like to purpose that this ArcheMyth (if I may, tip of my hat to Jung), of The Dragon Slayer is... A virtual representation of the internal experience, you, your primordial Self faces through the transition from childhood/dependent to adult/social role. Specifically, facing the catastrophic disintegration of the only truth we ever thought we knew, mama. The energy it takes to fight a dragon is the same energy it takes to get free from your mother's "hold" over you. "... the shamanistic crisis, when properly fostered, yields an adult not only of superior intelligence and refinements, but also greater physical stamina and vitality of spirit than is normal to members of his group. The crisis, consequently, has the value of a superior threshold initiation: superior, in the first place, because the shift of reference of the psychologically potent symbols has been not from the family to the tribe but from the family to the universe. The energies of the psyche summoned into play by such an immediately recognized magnification of the field of life are of greater force than those released and directed by the group-oriented, group-contrived....." [The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology, Joseph Campbell, 1991, Part 3: Ch. 5- "Shamanism"] Footnote: I just realized, kinda sadly slow, that Jesus is projected into this Myth; portrayed as a dragon slayer.
Are there any other mythological characters (non-gods) you want to know more about? King Arthur? The Ferryman of the Dead?
I would love to see your treatment of the "King under the mountain" motif. Something like King Arthur, where the hero dies or sleeps until he is needed again at the end of the age. Returning to his land to lead and protect his people. Love your stuff by the way.
@@isdvjbh I was actually talking to someone about this last week, so yes! Will do that as soon as I can. Thanks for watching
the 'evil twin' or shapeshifters?
Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy or an honest lawyer.
I wonder if that included the gods slaying the leviathan from Mesopotamia.
One thing I find intriguing is that the Iranian Thraetona and Vedic Traits are both spoken of as healers and physicians. Apollo who slew the serpent Python is also a healer god. The Irish healing god Dian Cecht slays a triple serpent or serpent of 'three turns' that inhabited the body of Meichi which otherwise would have depopulated Ireland and disposed of the remains in the River Barrow where they boiled in its waters. In Old Irish the river was called Berba ('boiling') which has the same etymology of Borvo the ancient Celtic god of healing identified with Apollo, who was also the consort of Damona, a goddess associated with cattle, and the companion of the Celtic Hercules.
You are one the most brilliant mythology and fable/folktale people in youtube. I so seriously enjoy your content--you've no idea. I travel all the time for work (like every freaking week), and my best entertainment when I get time to relax in the hotel is listening to your stuff.
Thank you so much for watching, and your very kind words. They are appreciated and make this work far more enjoyable.
@@Crecganford Your stuff is amazingly well done and researched, and I appreciate your willingness to condense books/larger source works that I might not have time to commit to with my frantic lifestyle. You're awesome.
It's interesting how the echos of these myths are found in Russian fairy tales. The heros are often the third sons, and one of the common villains who kidnaps the princess is Змей Горынич, a three- headed snake/dragon thing, that the hero defeats sometimes with the aid of a magical supernatural being (wolf or horse). Fascinating videos, thank you.
The third son is also a common hero in norwegian folk tales. Esben Askeladd; Esben -> Asbjørn -> god-bear, askeladd -> ash-lad; there’s some powerful Norse imagery; prevails over his older brothers Per (Peter) and Pål (Paulus); tricking trolls and kings on great adventures.
So this plus an element of pointing a nose at Christian imagery ?
In Romanian fairytales it's the same, for example in Zâna Zorilor (Fairy of the Dawn) after his brothers fail the 3rd son Petru is on a quest to find a cure for his father the king and has to defeat an originally 3 headed, but later 6 and eventually 12 headed dragon (balaur). He only defeats it after he gets help from his magic talking horse Murgul
reminds me of the golden bird fairytale where the third son is helped by a talking fox, but for some reason the first and second son are malevolent in this rendition
Good lord, I’m Swedish and one of the cartoons I grew up with had an anthropomorphic bear who went out and fought evil.
It was often a wolf, but also once against a dragon.
He fought with the help of magical “Thunder Honey” that made him super strong.
Koryos/Berserk?
Edit: he has a bunch of kids, but three of those are triplets, and one is named Teddy.
It makes sense to appear in Russian fairy tales and folklore since all of these groups descended from PIE peoples from the Russian/Ukraine steppelands
I am reminded of how Herakles - with the aid of Athena - led in water to free the cattle of Augeas. Augeas then refuses Herakles the gift he was promised and Herakles kills him and takes his cattle anyway (well, one-tenth of it). So here we have a warrior who with the aid of a god and water frees cattle, kills their owner and takes them away. Is this another version of the Trito myth?
Yes, definitely! And thanks for watching
21:59 this reminds me a lot of the song of Ullikummi from the hurrian mythology. The song of Ullikummi seems to refer to an eruption of the volcano "Nemrut" circa 6500 BCE at lake Van (the probable origin of the hurrians). At the eruption of Nemrut, a "lava-spine" emerged from the volcano (a lava-spine is a stone-"pole" - this happens when the lava cools down and hardens faster than it is pushed out of the volcano).
Now this lava-spine was approximately 0.7 miles long, so it actually reached the clouds. In the song of Ullikummi, a mountain gives birth to a stone-demon "Ullikummi", that emerges "like a spear" to the heavens, rips apart the clouds and attacks the sky-gods. The storm-god Teššub then killed the stone-demon by cutting his legs of (which seemingly describes the collapse of the lava-spine).
The story here has a red "reed" with a lot of fire and flames. That also sounds a lot like a lava-spine. The stories also share the emergence from a water (I suspect that the lava-spine emerged from the crater-lake).
Depending how you interpret things, I think this eruption could be the origin of
- the rebellion of satan
- the Fall of Adam - especially since it looks like a garden inside the crater. Also, the hurrians settled near todays Mossul, where the biblical Shinar is believed to be (where mankind settled after the deluge). By the way, the biblical deluge ended at Mount Ararat, which is only ~60 miles away from Lake Van and which is also a volcano.
- the tower of babel (there are even intermediate versions between Volcanic eruption and tower of babel, where the tower is built on a mountain, by a pharaoh named "Nemrud". The tower of babel in the bible is believed to be built by the rebellious King Nimrod. The hebrew word "NMRD" even translates to "rebellious"
Also in German, Suisse and French fairytales it is often the third son , who at first sight seems to be stupid, but has a warm heart and is well connected to the natural powers personified by animals or men with special magic powers . They help him to kill the dragon and to free the princess which is by magic often in love with the dragon. Sometimes there are three or even twelve princesses and dragons.
That’s very interesting, and matches with what we know about these stories. Thank you for sharing.
I wish I had another hand so that I could give you 3 thumbs up! This is great mind-fudge, dense and satisfying. Great stuff. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching.
I just have to say, I love this channel and its stories. One of the hidden gems on youtube
Thank you for your kind words, and for watching. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try and answer them if I see them.
Just wanted to leave a note and say I found your channel last week and it's everything I could want in a channel about myths. I also wanted to compliment your storytelling skills, you do justice to the craft!
Thank you for your kind words, they really are appreciated.
Fascinating and informative in equal measures! i have to be honest, it took me a few days to get through this video because I needed to sit and think about all of the key parts separately before they could come together in my mind. Your have a new follower in me, phenomenal content delivered beautifully!!!
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment, it is appreciated.
Damn! In Vedic (Hindu) tradition, the first man was called Manu. He was from a generation of progenitors that populated every planet. Manu was the one that started the human population on Earth (Earth's deity is Bhumi, a Goddess in the form of a cow).
That's because the Indians were civilized by the Proto- Europeans. (Aryans)
You have a fairly incredible podcast and a very large wealth of knowledge. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for watching, and your kind words.
It's interesting to me how beads of this story can even be found in myths from Japan, specifically the slaying of the Yamato no Orochi. A warrior who was one of a triplet of siblings, Susanoo (although not human but a god), defeated a multi-headed serpent through an offering of an intoxicating beverage, in this case not to a 3rd party god, but to the serpent itself, although the Yamato-no-Orochi is sometimes syncretized with a god as well, in order to free a group of women. It's certainly quite distant from most of the other examples of this basic myth, but it also is geographically, so that makes sense. As for how the myth travelled there in the first place, I'm not aware of any such myth existing in Chinese mythology, although it very well could, but assuming it doesn't, I assume the more direct way would be through Siberia, maybe or probably through the Ainu people.
That was a really cool comment. Thanks for watching and sharing.
Silk Road.
@@janeybusiness6601 If it was Silk Road, again, you'd expect there to be a version of the Myth in Chinese as well, seeing how China was the main-destination on that end of the Silk Road, but I'm not aware of any such myth.
Most likely from China, and by proxy, from India. As many Japanese Buddhist beliefs are Indian in origin.
@@stynershiner1854 Again, I'm not aware of any dragon like that in Chinese myth though, which you'd kinda expect to be transferred along with Buddhism to China as well if that was really what brought it to Japan, and then considering that this myth is very much tied to Japans own original mythology, which while mixed with buddhism in places still has its own unique aspects as well.
Not to mention that Japan imported its buddhism from China, not directly from India, so again, most of what sticked in Japan should've previously sticked in China. And then there's also the bit that the only Indian version of this myth I know is of Hindu origin, and I'm not aware of it having any relevance in Buddhism, so it obviously wouldn't have traveled along with it.
This is one my favourite videos of yours that I have watched, because in this one you really break down the comparative study of related elements in different historically attested myths to show how the reconstruction was arrived at. I think this format is strong. Thanks!
Thank you for watching and the feedback, that is good to know. I will try that again then :)
@@Crecganford Awesome mate - I will keep watching. Cheers
Sitting here as usual binge listening to Crecganford while I work - its always a pleasure and so interesting. And then WHAM suddenly there's my photo o.0 HAH! I did not see that one coming but that surely added a bit of extra to this particular video for me :D Thank you for your always great content Jon and for adding that extra work of subtitles - they really do help a lot :)
And thank you for watching.
I thoroughly enjoy every video of yours I’ve watched so far I look forward to seeing more from you!
Thank you for your kind words.
History is cool as hell. Thank you for the excellent content!
David's book changed my entire perspective of language, culture, and humanity as a whole. Excellent book!!🤓🧐😎
Thank you for your opinion on which version of the story is best to you. I truly enjoy your videos
And thank you for watching them.
Thank you for sharing your amazing knowledge. Another thank you, in that you are the first person who I have ever heard use the word "whilst" -My new favorite word if I can only figure out when and where to weave it into a conversation. And possess that warrior spirit to attempt such a daunting task. The word is like a three headed serpent, How, When and Where, to stutter that word, without the assistance of Soma or Mead or Jimson. Anyway, another Excellent video!
Thank you for watching, whilst taking the time to leave a comment. It is very much appreciated.
I may be unique here, but I am using these videos as inspiration for a fantasy setting. Creating a pre-culture is pretty cool for designing a more interesting culture for fantasy peoples
There are many people who have ion the past, even JRR Tolkien took the Old Norse myths to make Lord of the Rings. And I too am writing a novel based on these myths, although I am years away. I think if anyone uses real myth to influence their stories, it makes them feel more authenticate, makes the reader think that little more about “what if…”, and so I wish you good luck in your work and let us know how you get on with it :)
I´m using as inspiration too, understand myth helps a lot to create a fantasy background even behavior wise.
This is definitely how the most successful world creation in fantasy is done. Good luck in your efforts.
Found your channel a week ago and have been fascinated with it since. Really love the content man.
I was curious about some of the more, Bleak aspects of early religion, especially around the Black sea. I understand that it's hard to say exactly what idea's sprouted from were especially given how strange this family tree of belief is, but I was curious about early doomsday beliefs or predictions in stories, Also early idea's of reincarnation and the afterlife.
Again love the content.
My next video, released this Saturday will talk about the meaning of death amongst the PIE by looking at the Ferryman. That may interest you then.. and I will look at more of these things as soon as I can :)
@@Crecganford Sounds good. I'll definitely swing by for that Ferryman video.
The information you give is amazing!
I can relate the story of the dragon slayer to something of the Lombard legends. There's a story of a dragon/serpent, more precisely a water serpent, living in the Gerundo lake, which was located between Milan, Bergamo and Cremona provinces. Its name was Tarantasio in Italian, Tarantasi in Lombard language and somehow it reminds me the Celtic god Taranis. There are a few different versions of its legend, all have in common that it lived in the lake until it was drained and used to attack boats and eat kids. All around the shores of the lake there are toponyms linked to it (i.e. Taranta in the communality of Cassano d'Adda, or "snake street" or similar in other places). One legend says that was killed by Ottone Visconti the first lord of Milan, another by Saint George and some others. The same dragon/snake is in the heraldry of the Visconti family (see also AlfaRomeo symbol). The only difference is that the dragon is always with one head in these legends.
There are also some long bones, believed to belong to the dragon for centuries by local communities, kept in 3 different churches: in Almenno San Salvatore, in Sombreno in the municipality of Paladina and a third one in Pizzighettone, but studies obviously found out that those belong to whales or mammoths.
There is a painting of a dragon in a church in "San Pietro al monte" in Civate with 7 heads, but that is a different story I reckon.
There are some legends of dragons with 3 heads in Lombardy, but not apparently related to Tarantasi. For i.e. the legend of Alpe Piana dragon and Grosotto dragon legend, killed by a tall man with blonde hair and blue eyes.
It would be nice if you can research in this areas. I hope that this info is helpful. Thank you.
Thank you so much for taking the time to comment, it is appreciated. And I will keep an eye out for these things as I love trying to understand the stories of particular locals, it all helps with research, Thanks again!
Thank you a lot for sharing these informations ! It's very enjoyable and help for curiosity research !
Man, I just realized how close the norse creation myth is to the PIE one, in norse myth of course, Ymir the primordial giant is killed and his body parts are used to make the world, strikingly similar to Manus and Yemo
Exactly, it is probably the closest version to the original that still exists today. You may want to check out this video if you haven't already: th-cam.com/video/YJVPXosPF8A/w-d-xo.html
It really is impressive to realize that at least Norse Myth is the closest we have to the original proto-indo european mythos
Remember that the proto-indoeuropean myth is reconstructed from those such as the Norse, including Ymir as a clue for the name Yemo. So it's not especially surprising, it's kinda like brothers being surprised at how much dna they share with their own father. But yes it is similar and a strong case for it having a common original myth with the others
Odin, the hanged god, father of the storm, who is called grim and third
I love you these videos bro!
I find it interesting that the very act of cattle-stealing may have led to the necessity for the myths. Cattle-stealing, as you pointed out, goes both ways, and so our fear of having something taken from us generates a need for an explanation, if not comfort. Doing the stealing ourselves generates a sense of accomplishment and pride, what would be akin to earning some large profit or accolade in what we perceive to be a legitimate occupation, while being stolen from would generate a sense of failure. We'd need two figures to distinctly represent these two major presences in our lives, and they'd fit squarely with good/evil, life/death, and other diametrically opposed concepts central to our sense of identity and relation to the world around us.
And add to this that the myth started to change the need for the Storm God to do the killing, to the man, the warrior.
What a brilliant presentation
So much information in no time...
🔥 Y.N.W.A 🔥
I love your channel. So much interesting content. Have you ever looked at the Myths of the Celtiberians? I see you rarely talk about those myths which I asume must be periferic, and thus quite modified from the original versions. I would love to hear your take on that. thanks and congrats
I was talking to a colleague about this the other day, about where Celts come from, and how do we define them that would make every one happy. It is something I want to do as it plays into the history of the Britons, and I am really keen to do something on this too. So it will happen, but you may need to give me some time to be confident that what I present is a strong case. Thank you
I have been sitting here thinking, "Cattle Raid of Cooley"....
These have been excellent.... thank you very much.
The "youth with eyes like suns", seems to have had a reference in the diagram of the three headed monster with two suns in his belly..............
Thank you
Awesome lecture/video, exceptionally thorough.
I have a bit of a quarel with the use of Beowulf here. Or at least, the way in which it was represented.
Beowulf (written by Anglo-Saxon monks) has long been recognized by most scholars as a literary fabrication which presents authentic pre-Christian Germanic cultural values and mores but not any authentic oral tradition of mythology. It is what we would nowdays probably call a historical fiction - one or two historical characters, some references to known folklore, but otherwise literary.
That doesn't mean Beowulf's fight with the Dragon has less significance to your thesis here -- the story is rooted in everything you're tracing out. But I think recommending it to readers as an example of "Scandinavian Mythology" is a misrepresentation.
That being said, I would suggest Sigurd and Fafnir as a reference to an authentic Scandinavian legend.
Thanks for watching, and taking the time to comment, I do enjoy a good discussion on points like this. Myself and many of my peers feel Beowulf is of Scandinavian origin, probably Denmark, and so hence why I felt it was worthy of the representation of Scandinavian Mythology, plus it has better examples of the motifs I was looking for than the tales of Sigurd and Fafnir, which are fine stories in their own right and I agree are probably more easily accepted as being Scandinavian. But I have seen other scholars use Beowulf in the same way and so feel comfortable with that (I think Lincoln did, and I have a lot of time for him although no one is perfect I accept).
Another hugely informative and inspiring vid, thanks Jon!
Loving the really helpful pointing to sources, even if I haven't got a clue of when I can fit them in!
Also, since I'm loving your videos so much and have heard of Patreon even if I haven't signed up yet, I wonder do you use it/have thought about using it? I'm enjoying your efforts so much that I feel the need to give back to help you continue your work here.
Thank you for those kind words, and Patreon sounds interesting, although I'm not too sure what I can offer over and above what I already do. But I will have a think, or let me know if you have any ideas. That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!
In my book, I discuss a Russian fairy tale with three brothers- one in which the third brother slays dragons that the others are not able to overcome. It's a remarkably widespread narrative, if you look for it hard enough. Thraetona certainly appears to be one of the most archaic figures to be preserved in Persian mythology.
I have dipped into mythology and its ancient origins on and off over many decades. Each time I dip back in I feel let down. I've never been able to connect with any of these ancient fables; cattle raids, dragon-slaying, the magic hunt, the wounded king- yawn. I yearn for something more profound - what am I missing? I think the most moved have ever been is in the Epic of Gilgamesh when Enkidu dies and is mourned by Gilgamesh but maybe that it's because we have the complexities of a written story available to us.
That’s a shame, although the stories shred through oral traditional rarely have the detail and magic of literature. Thanks for watching, and taking the time to leave a comment, it is appreciated.
There are many stories, mostly in nors culture, where the hero is the third brother
Yes, I haven't been able to link them etymologically, but there is something there that seems more than coincidence. Thank you for watching, and for taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
Hey Jon, I have a few questions.
1. The dragon slaying myth is also know in ancient cultures of the Middle East. Is that due Indo European influence or is there a commen source before the PIE?
2. How does the cattle raid of Hermes, fit the other cattle raid in Greec mythology?
3. The tree sales snakes were also seen on an ivory artfifact of the Mal'ta site 24.000 BP. According to Joseph Campbell this is, togetter with birdfigurines a sign of early shamisn.
Questions 2 & 3 need substantive answers so will have to wait, maybe for a video, but 1 there is either PIE influence, or influence from a common pre-PIE ancestor culture. I would guess the later due to the age of serpent myths
@Morgan Allen While he used the term farming, he did seem to be fairly consistent in describing them as pastoralists, only describing the PIE speakers as farming livestock, not crops.
@Morgan Allen Serpents are a synonym for the cycle of the year and seasons, they are significant because they shed their skin and renew, it's part of what the biting it's own tail that you see with ouroboros with the gnostics and also with Egyptian Ra and the snake orbiting the sun, the serpent therefore can also be seen as a symbol of chaos when the cycle of the year and soil fertility falls into disarray or famine. (it certainly is in celtic paganism, wheel of the year and mythology).
40:00 yes!!!! Finally this is what I have been suggesting since I first commented in one of your videos!!
Well except I focused on the raiding aspect and I really need some polishing of the idea and knowledge of PIE myths. But basically thecreation and raiding myth reflected the real life acquisition of livestock as a major shift in indo eurpean speaking people's culture and eventual success that allowed spread thier culture and language across the super continent. The raid I believe has been rewritten and reflects thier claiming as thier own the right to own cattle and any one else as thieves subject to raid so the gift from the gods could be reclaimed by the people who hold the right sacrifices. I even thought the snake was representative of the early farmers that first introduced them to cattle. Had my eye on the people of gobleki teppe since thier evidence they held some ritual possibly to some snake diety or spirit.
I'm reminded of the pre-germanic Beaker people with their warrior culture and ritual mead drinking. In the past, warriors would drink alcohol before battle. The 'drink offered', from which the warrior 'receives strength' from the god has got to be alcohol.
I love how simple these stories are when boiled down: some young guys knock back some mead before fighting the neighbouring tribe and stealing their cattle... or anything that 'produces milk'.
This was great. It's a shame that I can't concentrate on it as much as I'd like to, but I will definitelly try. Subscribed.
Thank you Frank!
When you said that "Manus" means "man," "Yemo" means "two," and "Trito" means "three," it reminded me of something I learned in Japanese where "hito" means "person" and "hito(tsu)" means "one."
Best of the best! And generous - spreadind the seeds of objective knowledge!
Thank you for watching, and commenting, it all supports the channel, and for that I am grateful.
More excellent knowledge bro.even goin back to the enuma elish babylonian creation epic.i for one am impressed
Thank you, your words are appreciated
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
And thank you for watching :)
@@Crecganford my pleasure!
Also, in Mahabharata, Arjun is the third Pandava. He is defied by Indra when god Agni sought his help in burning Khandava forest. Later, during his exile, Arjun receives all the weapons after he had fought Shiva and received Pasupatastra, Shiva's weapon. Oddly, the name Pasupatastra derives from Paspati: Lord of beasts of cattle. Pasus: cattle.
Hi! Awesome video!
Quick question, though. When you talk about the spread of PIE, you always talk about how other peoples wanted to interact with the PIE speakers for their success and adopted their gods willingly. While I agree that would likely have happened often, I'm curious as to why you never mention conflict as a way the language and mythology spread. I mean, we do know for sure that this happened with later languages and religions, and we do know tribes and kingdoms fought even back then.
That is a good question, and I do hint at conflict here, between the PIE and those who worshipped the 3 headed god. But we have little proof of any battles or war. So whilst there were almost certainly battles and wars, it is really hard to prove, and therefore difficult to make a compelling case. Although the spread of DNA may help with offering some evidence. So that is why I'm always cautious. Thank you for your continued support, it is appreciated, and please ask more questions, perhaps I'll be able to make a Q&A video to help others :)
@@Crecganford Its probably much like the European settling of the Americas. Mostly good but with a few bad situations of violence etc. Not all one or the other
@@MrRabiddogg Yes, I agree, there are normally a number of things going on to create the picture we see.
@@Crecganford especially since it wasn't something that happened in a matter of a week or two. It probably was generational. Especially if the Germanic tradition of the 1st two sons inheriting their fathers land and then subsequent brothers being forced to expand is older than the Germanic peoples.
@@MrRabiddogg Yes, I'm sure that influenced things, Europe exploded into multiple regions around 4,500 years ago, from what was a comparatively empty place. And this expansion of existing families that were already established probably seeded most of this.
Great channel.
Perhaps the myth of Trito is the myth for the common man; he only became a warrior after being given something by his king. I have heard myths such as Ansipattle & the Storwyrm where a humble lad goes out to battle some fearsome beast and through cunning defeats the beast and wins the hand of a princess. I suppose it could be the myth of how a man is meant to live his life, as an echo of the first dragon slayer, he receives a gift from his father then goes out to make his way in the world, proving his worth and becoming a man, thus earning himself a wife.
The king then grants boons to his warriors who go fight for him and recover the stolen cattle which can then be sacrificed by the priests to help maintain the cosmic order and gain prosperity / fertility which gives the people more cows and so the cycle goes round and round both on a cosmic level and on a worldy level.
Thor was the god most norse prayed too. Perhaps all 'commoners' in PIE culture saw themselves as warriors.
That's a really interesting view, and I shall read that story, and I shall ponder that and re-read some Dumézil too. Thank you for your thoughts.
@@Crecganford Thanks for your video!
I had to listen this video "with only one ear". I will watch it carefully as soon as I can, but I'd like to share a clue right away:
In Croatia and in some parts of Serbia, the livestock is called "treasure" to this day. I wouldn't have spotted that connection in a million years were it not for this video. Thank you.
Cheers!
P.S. Please do increase the volume of your videos if you can.
Thank you for that interesting comment, and for the feedback. The sound in my newest videos is much better.
Dragons and goblins are man's most ancient mythological monsters
Goblins? Now I hadn't considered them... I shall investigate. Thank you.
Three is a great model for teaching and writing. A single point is just an observation. It could be random and indicates little. A second observation establishes a line. That is a pattern. You could guess the line continues but it would only be a guess. A third observation, if it is on the line, confirms the pattern. It represents infinity. Running 3 times around Troy means Achilles could have run infinitely around Troy and not catch Hector. 3 repetitions is shorthand for endless. 3 heads could mean endless heads as in an enemy that seems to have uncountable numbers of warriors. Just a thought.
Here because of the movie Prometheus, where the human AI speaks with the Engineer who seeded human life on Earth, in a dialect of Proto-Indo-European. To hear it spoken moved me, it struck a deep chord with me for some reason. It was like I was hearing an archaic language I used to speak for the first time in ages, and I’ve been researching it since. I don’t know how to explain it but it sounds so familiar, deep down inside. Glad I found your channel, I sub’d. (I know it’s Hollywood but they did their homework, listen to it. It is absolutely spine-chilling): th-cam.com/video/hRfx05qKVxg/w-d-xo.html
This movie (mythologically) explains the creation of man, which ties perfectly with what you’re saying. Engineers of mankind who seeded life, took a baby to their home world (Jesus/proto human-saving warrior) to remind mankind the meaning of life, only to watch their creation demolish itself after slaying him on the cross. At which point the creators give up on their creation.
Yes, I felt the same way too. The translation you saw was by Carlos Quilles, who has written a book on PIE language (the Prometheus version) and whose work includes the books and maps I refer to in my Who Were the Proto Indo-European videos. And if you have any questions please ask :)
Please don't get your religion from Hollywood and other movies.
@@watermelonlalala I'm quoting the written script that was cut. They said all that pretty much word for word in the written dialogue between the Engineer and the the humans. I just thought it was a pretty well thought out story
@@plasticflashlight3039 Why did the aliens create the humans?
@@watermelonlalala they didn't, it was the Engineers who designed them. When they were displeased with their creation they set a course for Earth with the black goo virus but didn't make it before being stopped by the alien xenonorphs.
Vritra the dragon was slayed by the vajra dari (lighting possessor ) Idra góð of indo-iranic people my favorite story of all time Also in the rigveda he was called varitrantha (Dragon Slayer). good video by the way continue the journey
Thank you for commenting. I’ve just read Vedic Vrtra by Lahiri and that explains this in far more detail, so I’ll probably do another video on this soon :)
@@Crecganford great It Will be really nice 💪🏽
I wonder if the myth of newborn Hermes, and his theft of Apollo’s cattle, is related to this one?
Another thoughts also occurs: perhaps Heracles was originally created as a way to show how several older heroes were in fact one hero, which the Greeks could then own, but that in reality they were all older heroes from different tribes/cultures.
I also have questions about the aboriginal people mentioned here who worshipped a triple headed god (perhaps Semitic and eventually an idea recalled by early Christians for the Trinity?) or perhaps related to how Poseidon or the Ocean are called the Third.
Thank you for watching, and I will answer these questions as I make more videos, as it is fascinating how many of these things are linked together and yet we don’t realise it.
I feel I should share this, as I have been studying archetypes given by Ra in the Law of One material. In it, one of them refers to Strength and not to give up because in that Strength it typically takes the third time to succeed. After I had that thought, while staring out a the window, a humming bird just appeared then flew away. In a way that told me my thought was correct that the third name in this story is the Strength archetype, and means not to give up, it took the third try to beat the dragon or the beast. It was not the name of the hero.
That doesn't align well with the evidence I present, but I do appreciate any sensible discussion on the topic, and so thank you for watching and taking the time to comment.
So very interesting and to think that today we sing The Lambton Worm on a boozy night at the local! History and myth are such amazing subjects.
They are, thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment.
I’d love it if you could read The Immortality Key by Brian Murarescu and then offer insight into the ancient use of soma, haoma, and the possible ceremonies at Gobeckli Tepi discussed in the book.
I read that about four months ago, and The Mushroom an the Sacred Cross. Both are interesting, although both do have some significant flaws in, but I do believe there is something to these theories and I will be making a video about it as soon as I can.
I'd wager that proto-humans were cowboys and ranchers first. They then developed into fully fledged farmers as they figured out how to sow fields with plows hitched to pack animals and dung for fertilizer. I'd imagine that the Russian Steppe is probably very similar to the North American plains. The plains served as pastures for huge herds of wild cattle and bison and the humans would migrate between semi-permanent hunting lodges as they followed the herds on their north to south migratory movements. These would be familiar areas that they could navigate easily to with access to fresh water and possibly even some escarpments or natural terrain that cattle could be herded into and protected. These lodges would eventually stockpile enough supplies and living structures to serve as year round encampments that started to actively trade with another and evolve agricultural practices.
Archaeology shows that agricultural farming came before horse riding or pastoral farming.
I know im late yo this channel but enjoying it immensely. Im interested in knowing how these myths were experienced contemporaneously, were they strongly held beliefs about the make up of the world, similar to how we would consider science now, or if it was more like a religious belief, an explanation for things beyond one's experience. Essentially, did people in that time believe they may one day meet a dragon or did they know it was just a story?
That is a great question and the answer really does depend on when and where you were when you heard about dragons. But it is fair to say some people still believe they exist, so it also depends on the intellectual bias the person in question has.
I've never heard this before. This is the best explanation of dragons and giants I've ever heard
Thank you, it amazed me when I first researched it.
Reminds me of one of my favorite Robert E. Howard stories - The Valley of the Worm.
I haven't read that, but will add it to my list of books. Thanks again for watching and taking the time to leave these comments.
@@Crecganford It's a short story, but you can find it in the book "The Best of Robert E. Howard | Volume 1 | Crimson Shadows"
Hope that helps!
I really enjoy your history lessons. But I have a hard time understanding some of what your say. I'm not sure if it's your accent or microphone.
Yes, I understand, a few people say this. That's why I transcribe all my videos allowing the captions/subtitles to be accurate. So please feel free to use them :)
Great stuff lad
Thank you!
I want to see you and peterson engaging a conversation ... will be very very interesting to see the points in common, grey areas and the points were history and Tiefenpsychologie don´t mach
I would love the opportunity, maybe one day in the future I will get my wish!
What are your thoughts and opinions on much older dragon-slaying myths such as that found in Sumero-Akkadian myths? I find it super interesting that there are a bunch of similarities between the Mesopotamian and Indo-European myths, one in particular is how Marduk and his brethern slew their creator-goddess grandmother, Tiamat, and created the world from her body parts. The parallels with the Odin and Ymir creation sacrifice myth is bone-chilling considering the former had been written in stone millenia prior. Great work on the video!
I cover some of that in my video on the Enuma Elish, and how that isn't strictly a dragon slaying myth in the typical sense. And how it related to the Old Norse myths. But I will look at other dragon slaying myths soon.
@@Crecganford Marduk slew Tiamat with a double headed ax by climbing onto her back and hewing her in two. It's definitely a dragonslaying story.
I've rummaged around and can't seem to find where I might procure one of those fancy t-shirts....
It was a one-off, just trying out designs. If you think people want a Crecganford T-Shirt then I will look at making a few.
To see the fourth group, look to the servants, helpers, pages, grooms, charioteers. The occupations of the heros/gods in disguise (like the Pandavas or in the Chinese book "Banks and Shores"/"All Men Are Brothers"
Dumezil always thought there was a fourth class, but I'm not sure this can be proved. Although I like the gods in disguise idea, that is interesting. Let me ponder. Thank you for your comment, very much appreciated.
I really like your videos. I believe that all myths related to the creation or origin of humanity as well as its destruction suggest real events.
Is it possible that they originate with the survivors of the Younger Dryas impact?
The description of the Ragnarök, the myth of the Heavenly Cow as well as other similar myths about destruction by fire or water seems like the eyewitness account of the effects of what could be a global catastrophe of that magnitude.
I will talk about my theories here on post Younger Dryas-pre-PIE as soon as I can, as well as before that. The dragon was certainly alive in myths before the YD event, see my Early Words video, but the cow is more likely to be a post EEF event due to farming. And I also hope to touch on this on another video in the next few weeks that look at the work of Homer, but I don't want to give any spoilers away.
@@Crecganford Thank you very much, I'll wait for your next video.
I see a relationship between the serpent or the dragon of the myths and the vision of a comet and its tail. Meltwater Pulses seem to be the origin of most of the Flood Myths around the world. Since you mention Homer It is interesting that Homer's Troy is created by Tros, Grandson of Dardanus (Dardanus' Deluge of the Ancient Greek Flood Myths).
Rita Louise has a book about this on Amazon. might be worth your read. Took me maybe 45 minutes.
When one understands the protoHebrew creation myth from a "serpent seedline" perspective rather than the modern orthodoxy of the majority of denominations, it largely aligns with this common PIE idea as well. The "serpent" in the garden of Eden was Hebrew Nephesh which means seducer/sorceror, but may have come to mean serpent later. If this seducer seduced Eve to create the serpent seed line, then the warriors and priests of that society which held that myth could hold that belief as justification for retribution as this discussed with the warriors being the cattle raiders. This viewing of those tribes subjugated (the Canaanites in the Hebrew histories) as worthy of retribution was even more extreme as often the livestock AND women were dedicated for destruction (antisanctified), despite the recognition by the people as tempting. This is perfectly demonstrated in the book of Judges.
Furthermore, the Hebrew and Aramaic book of Daniel and the Greek book of Revelation perpetuate this idea of multiheaded monsters (not gods, but recognized as being treated as gods by foreigners) being conquered by a hero, though the role of hero is in the son of God (the second) rather than the third (Adam). I'd contend that where there is major difference between the PIE and the protoHebrew, may be explained as that before the great flood (assuming non-planetary in this case), were serpent seedline theory to be accurate, there were Adamic Kenites and Adamic Sethians. Think of the Kenites (descendants of Cain as descended from Nephesh and Eve according to this theory) as the descendants of sorceror/seducers, but still as ethnic cousins to the Sethians. The Sethians that maintained their faithfulness to sacrifice to their true God had descendants explained by the Hebrews as the Japhethites, Semites, and Hamites. The flood story was explained as wiping out those in the Adamic world that descended from these monstrous, Grendel-like children of 'Satanic' (enemy) forces. Now consider this... if in Genesis 6 the famous passage prefacing the flood, it describes the "sons of god" (Ben Elohim) mixing with the daughters of man (Awdawm in Hebrew... descendants of Adam, thus Sethians), the issue of how these beings are viewed becomes apparent. Somewhere between God and man, there are other beings that aren't quite mortal, we are not sure of their free agency or their origin, and we aren't sure of their level of physicality, but one could easily see how if these possible descendants of those unions between Ben Elohim and Ben Awdawm traced their roots, they might see themselves as gods, whereas the humble Adamites preserved through the flood saw it as blasphemy, that their mixing was wicked, and that the other cultures they encountered were perpetuating that corruption. Now this is speculation, but etymonline cant trace (water serpent) further than the old Norse, but what if this came from what the Hebrews also knew as El? The confusion regarding how a term used for "the godhead" in a "monotheist" religion could have a plural sense persists to this day, but maybe it is more connected to an understanding as God's breath being given to Adam and whatever role the "other beings" (whether fallen angels, demons, or some mysterious 'serpent-people' related to Nephesh) in creating a hybrid line that survived on the outskirts of the flood area and infiltrated the remainder of the Adamic line through the Canaanites once they mixed with the "giants"/Rephaim/Nephilim. One often missed part of the Bible as a whole is a failure on the part of the Israelites to annihilate those descendants of seducers and punishment of the Israelites and ultimately Christians by being subjugated by worldly powers, especially those multiheaded beasts as empires like Babylon and Rome that were connected with how the Israelites viewed their ultimate adversaries... the Edomites. And the Edomites were said to have been a more recently branched line of uncorrupted Adamites, but that forsook their inheritance and mixed with the Canaanites in defiance of their patriarch. This Edomite line, by the time of Christ and conclusion of the last temple period, was known to have finally infiltrated the last stronghold of Israelites in Judea when the Judahite-Judean Hasmonean the Edomites, but forced them to "convert" rather than slay them. The conversion paved the way for the Edomites, by means of Antipater (father of Herod the Great) to usurp the Judean priesthood and local governance and replace the Israelite faith with one corrupted by Babylonian paganism and Edomite blasphemy (false identity claim), which became empowered and sponsored by the Roman state. This Edomite-Roman system/beast is predicted before its conception in prophecy in the book of Daniel and expounded upon by the prophecy in Revelation.
Here's a well-deserved like and comment for the Almighty Algorithm!
Many thanks for your support.
Almost had a heart attack when Jordan Peterson's name came on screen til you said you disagreed with his theory lol
I m wondering (as I m just starting my adventure with indoeuropean mythologies) about Trito (years ago I've read about the discovery of "Many, Yemo, Trito" as a triad of proto-heroes) Does Trito should be considered as 3d function hero in Dumezilian IE triad, or as 2d function hero - the warrior - in this triad? Or maybe just those two triads have no connections at all? :)
Thank you for any answer :)
The King encompasses all the tripartite functions and so isn’t counted as a function, so priest/sovereign is the head, and the warrior (and so Trito) is the second and the body. I hope that helps. And thank you for watching and all your comments :)
@@Crecganford I m a bit confused here now :) becouse previously I thought that Yemo is the warrior - king (Yemshid, Yima) and Trito is well, "third brother", "youngest brother", peasant hero. But you say that Trito is the warrior?
I am so happy to have found your channel. I'm a historian (that's what I went to school for) and have a fascination with indo-european...well...everything. This is wonderful and I spend part of my time looking at your bookshelf. Such interesting and well though out videos. 💙
Thank you so much for watching, and for taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
I want your books. Thank you for sharing this stuff.
I wish they were more accessible, I truly do. Some I have only managed to get hold of through my University, and others were over £100 each. It's such a shame.
@@Crecganford I will have to look into going through the University to get access to books. I hadn't considered that. The price doesn't shock me, I have a fair number of paleoanthropology books that aren't cheap either.
Interesting thing is linking all those mith with geographical location of PI people and remembering that the flood mith comes from there too, and in fact there WAS a flooding in the area that now is Black Sea floor. Once was inhabitated land
I will look at the origins of the flood myth in the next few weeks. I hope you come back to watch that too :)
Thanks brother.
First video of yours I listen: great, as in really informative and interesting content! But! I’m having a hard time with the constant sound off whenever you pause - fix that mic!
The mic is far better in newer videos :) I hope that means you watch more.
I love how this myth seem ro repeat even into the same mythologies.
Python snake slaying, typhon snake slaying, ladon snake slaying, delphyne yep this too.
It somehow feel as if they all came to different background but with the same origin and then they had to stick the together in the greek mythology.
Thank you for watching, and over the next few months I'll release at least two more videos looking at the similarities and origins of this type of myth.
@@Crecganford thanks, love your content, keep up the good work.
excellent
Cool idea
So you are you a proponent of the Anatolian hypothesis for the origins of PIE? I figured you'd be inline with David Anthony on that one but I guess I must have missed it in other videos. I like the steppe theory but maybe I should look at other again
The origin of the PIE language is from the Steppe, and I show that in a number of videos, such as the video on Who were the Proto Indo-Europeans.
@@Crecganford that's what I thought. Must have misunderstood what you said in the beginning
Brilliant!
Thank you for watching, and your kind words. They are appreciated.
I believe that the Red-Sea miracle in the book of Exodus is another instance of this Chaoskampf. It's just a bit more obscure - but there, too, you have a Storm-god (JHWH is in large parts a Storm-god) using a Wind against ... well against the sea itself instead of against a sea-GOD. Instead of splitting the sea-GOD, the sea itself is split. Neberu passes through the center of Tiamat, the sea-goddes - Moses passes through the center of the sea itself. Afterwards, Moses gets stone tablets just like Marduk. Moses gets them ON a mountain, Marduk gets them FROM a mountain-goddess. Marduks stone-tablets make him the ruler of the universe, Moses stone tablets make the hebrews invincible.
Just like Neberu, Exodus is connected to the spring-equinox (a.k.a. Passover, which is the literal translation of "Neberu" from akkadian). In Exodus, 600.000 hebrews left Egypt. According to Enuma Elis, there were 600 gods. Even the names of the locations in Exodus are equal to the names of the corresponding gods in the Ugaritic Ba'al cycle. Speaking of the Ugaritic Ba'al cycle - Ba'als father El had 70 children - Josephs family had 70 members.
And Isaiah 51, 9-10 spells it out quite clearly, that Exodus IS the Chaoskampf.
That is an interesting thought about the Red Sea, and likewise your thoughts about Exodus. Thank you for watching and sharing them. You maybe interested in my next video where I start talking about dragon myths, and specifically Tiamat and Vrtra, as it helps support the argument that the Mesopotamians knew these myths from an earlier source.
The cattle element, in my mind reinforces the notion that the conflict is an allegory of the Water Cycle, and the droughts, rains, and foods that meant starvation or survival.
It doesn't surprise me that those cultures who held domesticated bovines to feature them as the prize at stake, stolen but gotten back by the sky hero.
The Native American Uktena v Thuderbird, or combined (like the asian Lung) in the feathered-serpent gods.
While no cattle feature in the conflict between Uktena serpent, and Thunderbird, their conflicts still seem to be used to rationalize rains, storms, floods, and droughts.
But, particularly in the urban mesoamerican civilizations, with their feathered serpent gods, non the less often exist in counterpoint to Chak Ek, the Morning Star, or another more human-like god of wind and rain, in an uneasy partnership that leads them into a celestial drama, one that often seems to either endanger, confine, or steel-away the Corn Goddess, or (at least in one tale) in which the cosmic drama, or celestial wrath acts as the cause and origins of the Corn Goddess as the savior of humanity.
In these Mesoamerican takes in which the Feathered Serpent fuses the features of Thunderbird and Water-Snake, many features of the proto Indoeuropean myth can still be seen, though I can't imagine tracking the tales migration linguistically (presumably to 100k, but maybe later), or even to the Jomon/Ainu.
I know of no Water-Cycle Snake&Bird fight stories in Astra-Aboriginal folklore (though I'm not all that familiar).
Ps. Have you noticed the euroshamanic "three worlds" cosmology, in which the physical world were the realm bridging the polarities of the chthonic underworld of food, flesh, desires, and fertility, and the abstract sky world of mythic heroes and shining gods of ideas, knowledge, and words, brought together in, or suspended between those worlds is the lived world of human life on earth. At least thats how its been painted to me by at least a few sources that made an impression (though it is a rather tidy cosmology to have arisen in this form organically).
Yes, cattle evolved from the water cycle myth; the dragon took what was valuable and as agriculture went to pastoral farming, so the myth changed.
Just did a quick scan through of Rig Veda & it seems the dragon/serpent motif is almost always combined with the Bull symbol in most of the passages I read, although if I wanted a more thorough understanding I'd probably have to refer to some Theosophical books. The Cow it seems represents a slightly later stage or lower realm in the evolution/manifestation of the cosmos, whereas the Dragon is the primordial unconscious (the deep) from which the gods arise at the beginning of each new Manvantara. Keep in mind that there are different translations available...the translation I have of RV 10:8:8 reads: "Well-skilled to use the weapons of his Father, Aptya, urged on by Indra, fought the battle.
Then Trita slew the foe SEVEN-RAYED, three-headed, and freed the cattle of the Son of Tvastar." Note that Agni is also called the 'seven rayed' & 'triple headed' (1:146:1). The Monad (One), the Logos, the 'realm of speech' as the Rig Veda says, is known variously as Agni, Indra, Soma, Surya etc...are all the same God (RV 1:164:46) & are called the Bull or the 'chief bull' at the head of the cattle (gods, planets etc). Its interesting that Agni who is called the Bull is also compared to a serpent (1:79:1, 1:141:7). Soma, like Agni (fire) has a physical form & an ideal or archetypal counterpart. As God it is the 'central point of heaven' (1:43:9, 9:12:4) & working through the Milch-Cow (mother nature), streams forth as a thousand streams/rays of light. Agni-Indra is both Bull & the Cow in the beginning as the Monad (10:5:7) but become spirit & matter as the universe unfolds. Anyway its interesting what one can discover by doing a word search :)
Why would you need to reference theosophy to understand Vedic myths?
The third son is also a common hero in norwegian folk tales. Esben Askeladd; Esben -> Asbjørn -> god-bear, askeladd -> ash-lad; there’s some powerful Norse imagery; prevails over his older brothers Per (Peter) and Pål (Paulus); tricking trolls and kings on great adventures.
So this third-ness plus an element of pointing a nose at Christian imagery ?
Another Bulgarien story in short. A father had three sons and the lived in the upper earth. They haved a magical tree that gives magical fruits. A three headed serpent stoll the fruits and the third brother chased the serpent to the lower earth where the serpent was blocking the waters for the people and they have no water. Also the serpent stoll a beautiful girl. The third son killed the serpent and resqued the girl and freed the waters. Then an eagle helped him to go back to the upper earth, but he have to feed him whit pieces of his own flesh to do so. In the past the eagle symbolised a shaman, a sky soul, a person who was able to go whit his spirit to the sky. So I find references to trito the dragon slayer but also to the creation myth the body must be sacrifice to the shaman (priest) so the order to be restored. So the strory is for a boy that is going to be a warrior and he goes to his subconsciousness (the lower earth) to kill his demons and the have to make a sacrifice and whit the help of the shaman priest to come back to upper earth. Perhaps... Or what do you think?
Thank you for sharing these, it is really appreciated.
@@Crecganford i have a question. If the word cattle means female that gives milk, and it was substituted whit princess lately how do we know that it was a cattle that feedet the two brothers and not some female substance like the mother-godes?
Intresting Trita myths. Afaik, there are little to no references of baltic trita myths, but and this is me being a very big hopeful here, there might've been, as one of the Old Dukes from the Lithuanian statehoods infancy, was called Treniota, who conspired regicide on the 1st and last, to date, King of Lithuania, Mindaugas. Maybe its a false cognate, but it does sound similar, and "trečias" means third in Lithuanian, not to mention the man was a Duke, so a man of power and great stature, allegedly, thus it would make sense to name him after a heroic figure, would it not?
huh, i wonder if the cattle raid of cooley is very old, or just recreated the root format
There are some primitive motifs still within the story, suggesting its roots are old. The ending in particular is a reflex of the Indo-European creation myth, and Cu is described as possessing Lyssa (wolfish rage) at one point. A great story, and one I really want to make a video about.
It wasn`t a knight it was an Italian plumber ;-)
0:32 That was a good reference
26:48 Man that shit really sucks! Imagine you gather all the 7 Dragonballs and then Shen Long is given you nothing. Paris at least could choose between the world, wisdom, or beauty.
But if Ygg means Odin do you want to say that Odin was playing with himself for 9 days to gain wisdom?
36:59 Looks like star signs/constellations to me.
sorry if this is a dumb question but what is the Yahst ? web search turns up nothing - do you mean the Yasna ?
That's a great question as I should really clarify it, so my understanding is that a Yasna is a book of prayers and hymns, and a Yahst is a hymn within it. So they could be interchangeable if referring to a hymn number within a book, you could say Yasna 1.2.3 as well as Yahst 1.2.3. I hope that helps with any confusion I may have caused :)
@@Crecganford ahh thank you !! in fact i seem to have discovered the wikipedia page, but i think i wasn't finding it because it seems to be Yasht not Yahst ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasht
This has made me want to go back and read some of the Border Ballads of the border reivers.
It reminds me of Romulus and Remos, and their wolf.
And also Cain and Abel
I am greatly interested in the electric universe theory of the cosmos and tend to look at all myths through that filter. More myths, more correlation, at least in my eyes. Check out Thunderbolts Project. See what you think.
There may not be an excavator powerful enough to dig it up, or it may not have been created or passed down due to the low group sizes, but it would be interesting to have some idea whether there was a pre-cattle, pre-agriculture version of the dragon slayer story; a story shared among hunter-gatherers. And, what would be the treasure won for the hunter-gatherers through triumph in this battle?
There was, and I made a video about it yesterday, so check out my channel and you'll see it :)
Can you make a video about the PIE warrior wolf cult? If you haven’t already, that is 😁
I have a video about Lyssa, this explains the background to this: th-cam.com/video/CTe9fSrxqvY/w-d-xo.html
@@Crecganford thank you!
Has any connection been drawn between the association between indigenous people where the PIE speakers lived with the Indian nagas? Assuming I'm not completely off base in referring to the nagas as serpentine.
I’m not sure I understand who you mean by nagas, as they are myth.
@@Crecganford That was kinda what I was getting at. Were they a less focused iteration of the serpent imagery they associated with other peoples, related to the more focused myths that evolved into singular dragons, or an unrelated myth that just happened to share the theme of serpents.
Do a talk as to where frank Herbert derived the story of DUNE
I would like to purpose that this ArcheMyth (if I may, tip of my hat to Jung), of The Dragon Slayer is... A virtual representation of the internal experience, you, your primordial Self faces through the transition from childhood/dependent to adult/social role. Specifically, facing the catastrophic disintegration of the only truth we ever thought we knew, mama. The energy it takes to fight a dragon is the same energy it takes to get free from your mother's "hold" over you.
"... the shamanistic crisis, when properly fostered, yields an adult not only of superior intelligence and refinements, but also greater physical stamina and vitality of spirit than is normal to members of his group. The crisis, consequently, has the value of a superior threshold initiation: superior, in the first place, because the shift of reference of the psychologically potent symbols has been not from the family to the tribe but from the family to the universe. The energies of the psyche summoned into play by such an immediately recognized magnification of the field of life are of greater force than those released and directed by the group-oriented, group-contrived....."
[The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology, Joseph Campbell, 1991, Part 3: Ch. 5- "Shamanism"]
Footnote: I just realized, kinda sadly slow, that Jesus is projected into this Myth; portrayed as a dragon slayer.
What about Apollo and myth of Pyton/dragon and Hermes... ?
They slew dragons, but they do not have such a strong connection with the Cattle Raiding mythology.