The Mesopotamian creation myths are so intriguing! And when contrasting them with Genesis, it's even more so. Thanks for these lectured. I'm learning a lot.
Great episode. Also worth bringing up Canaanite religion from the Ugaritic texts. The Baal Cycle is really a story of agriculture that kind of bridges the Mesopotamian myths and the Genesis account of creation.
@jeffryphillipsburns Hi In order to understand the potential of inhaling and exhaling during dreams, as well as in awakening due to the existence of this one eternal air surrounded by the earth, we must ask ourselves what is thought, basically, is the formation of thought in the human physical body from the beginning of birth. In him, like other sensory organs, a person's body is institutionalized in him, or not the phenomenon of a thought, it is that phenomenon located outside of the person's body, which only the person uses his sense organs to increase his intelligence from the source that is for being. He is immersed in it, he perceives, therefore, the answer to his question is based on the four rules of existence that exist under the heavenly umbrella. -The first rule is appearance Which makes meaning of The Meaning, because the meaning is in the appearance. -The second rule is the arrangement rule, which creates a structural form in the genesis. -The third rule is movement. -The forth rule is the direction of movement, in order to how to be the act of movement. the rules are the principle of intelligence that today's human achievements are more or less based on these four rules, the meaning of the origin of any container inside the container related to containers, for example, the earth with everything it had, such as creatures in all kinds of species With life and lifelessness, it is located on and inside the earth, which means that a piece of cloth is immersed in this one eternal cup like air, so to understand it better than thinking, you should look for it from the container in which everything is in the form of The envelopes are caught, so the phenomenon of dreams taken from inhaling and exhaling are good signs for an involuntary image of a thought, and involuntaryness in a dream is caused by the potential of the third law, which is movement. As a result, of the four laws in the universe, only The fourth rule is the direction of movement, which is given to the subjects in the form of predestination and free will, and man is the only being that has both the structures of predestination and free will, predestination for deterrence and free will for guidance.
It's called "Creation Myths of the Ancient World," but really it just touches on the only two myths I want to hear them talk about, and in perfect proportion. This episode is probably my favorite one next to the awesome Mark Goodacre episode on the Gospel of Thomas.
I do like creation myths, and I think it's kind of sad that YECs take it so literally and thus strip all the magic and poetry out of Genesis (especially Ch 1 with its repeating motifs).
YEC = _Young Earth Creationist..._ It took me several minutes to figure out you weren't talking about the _Young Entrepreneur Council._ This is probably a place where you could have just spelled it out rather than using a fairly uncommonly used abbreviation. Once I got that figured out I have to agree with the rest of your statement.
Who told you Genesis was allegorical? What about Exodus or the virgin birth then? When these books were written, the writers and the readers did not believe they were allegorical until of course these stories collided with proven science and history.
@@sailorbychoice1 Well, I was being lazy for one thing, but also I tend to hang about on a lot of channels that debunk creationism, so I probably forgot it didn't have such a universal recognition.
I'm signed up for the course, so truly thankful you offered it for free, I would take every course you have if I could afford it, I'm surviving at the time as a single mom on 880.00 a month until disability is approved, so again thank you so much for offering this course for free😊❤
Interviews are always best when one scholar directs the questioning to the second scholar; a lay person could not have conducted this successful of an informing interview. Thanks,
Reading the Fable sequentially would feel strange to most people who are used to only reading carefully cherrypicked verses. I have tried reading the Fable sequentially. It is a weird book, starting with all the obvious misconceptions about "creation" and boring, silly lists of people who live for hundreds of years. It goes on with the weird myth about "Tower of Babel" and how different languages arose, very far from reality. Then we are told huge numbers of rules about how to sacrifice animals, together with descriptions of a long series of massacres where The Invisible Man slaughtered huge numbers of innocent people in order to support his own "chosen people", the Israelites, a bit similar to how a person closer to our time sent huge numbers of innocent people into gas chambers in order to support HIS "chosen people", the "Aryan race". It continues like this, with absurd nonsense.
We're you listening? He didn't say that people read the BOOKS of the Bible sequentially. He said people read the CHAPTERS of the book of Genesis sequentially.
If it gives them comfort its no more a waste than a sports fan, a gamer, or the average person spending 5 hours per day on recreational screen time. The average Christian probably spends two hours per week on their beliefs and practices. Plus 40% of Christian’s also follow non-Christian supernatural beliefs and practices such as reincarnation and astrology(pew research).
I would love for Bart D. Ehrman to talk about Zoroastrianism’s influence on the New Testament with Martin Schwartz who is an expert on the Avesta which is the name of the Zoroastrian bible.
@@MikeJJJenkin If it was so easy to make people out of clay, then why would they need reproductive organs? He could have just made a bunch of clay people and been done with it. None of any of the buybull makes logical sense of you actually give it any thought at all.
@@rhondah1587 The Bible doesn’t say the clay fashioning is “easy”, does it? The reproductive organs are necessary so that God can be done with His work while the humans go about being fruitful and multiplying. Now if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life, as they were threatening to, and become immortal, all that multplying might not have have been necessary, but God was wary of the humans becoming too god-like.
Once you invoke magic there’s no need to follow science…I mean if Eve was literally made from Adam - from his DNA - then she was the first transgender woman since she had x and Y chromosomes. But when you invoke magic you just say, God changed her DNA. When you apply contemporary scientific understanding to ancient stories you’ll always find conflicts. We no longer consider the fundamental elements to be earth, fire, water and air.
I read an interesting take about this, basically saying the word for "rib" can also mean "side" and that man and woman were created when Adam (both genders, made in the image of the creator) was split in half. Two equal humans rather than Eve being made from a small part of Adam. (Spoke too soon, they kind of get into this concept in the video haha)
Bart, not just this episode, but largely, you use your sort of "fame" or "standing" to bring other people to light to those of us who don't know. Awesome
And, your questions are so skillful. You ask questions that you know the answers to, in order to encourage your partner to elaborate on what they know. Well Done
No, he's proselytizing for his atheist religion much like a prosperity preacher. He's getting rich from his books and lectures, and he's selling temporsry happiness in the here and now. In eternity the temporal happiness comes to an end. And he's probably lying about his temporal happiness anyway.
Guys, Here is The True Savior YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF” From the Ancient Semitic: "Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3) Ancient Semitic Direct Translation Yad - "Behold The Hand" He - "Behold the Breath" Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
I've always seen Genesis 1 as a liturgical text. It is built on a verse/refrain format where one part of the assembly or a leader would recite the the part proclaiming the creation portion and the other part would respond with "And there was evening and there was morning, the #th day."
Thank you both. I have heard that there is no mention of god waking Adam from deep sleep leading to the mystics claim that this is still a dream or illusion. Also if Adam is ungendered it reminds me of Pluto's Symposium.
The guest states that the Genesis chapter 1 creation myth is a monotheistic creation myth, but doesn't mention that the name Elohim is plural, not singular.
My favourite creation story is Snorri Sturlusons version in the Edda. A giant called Ymir is killed by the gods, and all his bodyparts are used to create earth. His skull is the dome, his eyelashes are the fence surrounding Middle-Earth.
The questions I have are these. What do we know of the Canaanite creation? How much of Israelite creation can be attributed to this origin? How many specific concepts were derived from the Babylonians (and Sumerians by extension) and possibly the Zoroastrians during the exile? Are there any significant differences in the Samaritan Torah in this regard? Mainly though I am very interested in Canaanite origins as a mythological basis that was later added to and modified. I'd like to see a verse by verse breakdown along these lines.
You might find some answers on a channel called Esoterica. I know on a couple of his videos he does discuss some of the things you raise in a fairly detailed way.
Arabic language, being Semitic and closely related to Hebrew and shares the same roots for the words, have richer dictionary and wider explanation of Semitic terms. Adam : the crust of the earth, usually the clay part. According to Arabic dictionary
26.00-28.00 . I am surprised that as a scholar he didn't mention that "Elohim" is plural. Which is then followed by a singular verb! Mystery already and the Bible hasn't even started
"Elohim" is a collection of many Kanaanite gods. It's a bit like a football team with many players. Is there one singular team or a plurality of players? A random search on internet reveals sentences like "Minnesota Vikings is playing against New Orleans Saints on Nov 12". "Minnesota Vikings" seems to be singular :-)
Hello Dr., have you debated Dr. Frank Turek or is that something that will never happen? I learn a lot from both of your opposing viewpoints and enjoy the rhetoric. I searched TH-cam but was not able to find anything with you two debating or having a conversation about Christianity.
Wondrium has sort of been diluted since it's Great Courses days. There is still good stuff, but there is a lot of fluff. Look forward to seeing Joseph's lectures
Hey, thank you so much for this. I have thought for a decade or something that it was obvious that God didn't create everything because he didn't create "the waters," and I've never heard anybody address this point before, and Christians all seem to think he created everything. It's been 10 years or something and I secretly have felt stupid the whole time, like I'm just not getting it, but there it is. I sincerely appreciate you and your work.
Bart, have you come across Michael Witzel’s “Origins of the World’s Mythologies”? I would love to hear what you have to say about it - your critique! What you agree with, and whether there’s much or anything that you disagree with fundamentally? 😇😇😇
What I see is the friction between the nomadic life and the settled life. Farmer and shop keeper. Those from the city, the city is created by god for man and gods temple is within the city. Those from the land are within gods temple just being here. I see that dichotomy in the two creation stories.
The people in the desert in Israel are obviously jealous on the people in the much more advanced agricultural civilisations in Babylon and Egypt, where the rivers create great possibilities for rich harvests. Hate against Babylon and Egypt is a central theme in the Fable. "Happy is the one who grasps your little children and smashes them on the rocks" (Book of psalms 137:9)
In the Marduk story, he battles Tiamat and wins, cuts her body down the middle and uses one half to create the sky and the other half to create the land. There are quite a few similarities with the Genesis story which leads one to assume the ancient Hebrews had to have picked up a lot of their lore from their time in Persia. Cyrus the Great who sent them back to Israel told them to go back to their lands and write their history. They wrote stories using motifs they had learned elsewhere. Obvious is obvious.
There is a great new channel I've discovered called _Esoterica._ The host covers all kinds of interesting text in scholarly detail and does discuss with some thoroughness some of the tropics you brought up in some of his videos . And yes some definite connections with other cultures in the development of the Israelite religion and belief system.
@longcastle4863 Absolutely there was. *The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.*** *Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.*** ***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service. *"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"* *"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"* *"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"* *"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"* Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:45 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes. From a Biblical scholar: "Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."* *"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"* ------------------------------------------------------------------ In addition, look up the below articles. *"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* *"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"* *"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"* *"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"* (Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief) *"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"* *"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From? *"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"* Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica (Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years) *"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"* *"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"* *"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"* *"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"* Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"* (8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science) *"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"* *"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"* *"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"* *"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"* *"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"* *"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei (This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies) *"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei *"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
There was so much missed in the creation stories from all over the world their stories that absolutely mimic exactly the Hebrew story of creation sad part is you didn't even mention the Atra hasis or even the earlier Sumerian creation story
The various creation myths can be extremely different, but you will also of course be able to find somethings similar if you look with enough energy and lack of critical sense. After all, a bicycle, an air plane and an eye are very similar since they all have round parts.
Odd thing I notice is how god doesn't seem to be planning for a lot of people here. He makes this one guy, then makes him some animals because he's lonely, then makes a woman when that doesn't work out. If Adam hadn't been lonely, would god just have been happy to leave the whole thing at one person?
Women are always an afterthought -- the helper, the sidekick & of course, the babymaker. It's always about men bc it's all written by and for MEN. Women are sinful, evil, ashamed and responsible for everyone's downfall. We had no souls, remember? It is clear we were & are meant to suffer in pain. The example of "gutting one like a fish" was nauseating. What a waste of time trying to decipher books we already know were deliberately altered many times by many people in many places! People today are mostly incapable of the critical thinking that we really need. Christians -- esp YEC -- can start by watching Inherit the Wind, for example.
@@mikeharrison1868 The division of the Bible into chapters and verses really came with the advent of printing. You had a multitude of copies with the same size of pages and the same print size and font. You now knew what page a chapter started on.
Joe has a decent speaking voice so he isn't naturally boring but Bart has to pull every bit of information out of him and then organize it for him in review.
Yes, and the two "gods" are very different indeed. Elohim is invisible, is everywhere at the same time, and was made as a collection of Kanaanite gods. YHWH started as a Babylonian/Egyptian war god, is visible, walks around, talks to people, is one place at a time, and sends "angels" when he is too busy to attend an event himself. What should stop people from having differing fantasies about "God"? People can have any "gods" they want.
The best book on this is THE BIBLE WITH SOURCES REVEALED by Richard Friedman. He has all the sections/insertions from various sources (according to the documentary hypothesis) color coded so you can clearly identify them.
The tone of the guest is rather sarcastic for the topic lol. I like the last part the most, about the temple. I think that's why some mystic thoughts say human is temple of god. Also the mixing of water theory analysis was good one too.. thanks
The need for a creator for anything you find on this earth, like a watch. The perplexing idea of God created the world, and they know who the god is. They knew he had a son. And they know his name.Like finding a watch, and you know the watch creator's family by just looking at a watch that was found.
There are so many funny creation myths around in the world. The Chinese, the Norse, the Mayas, the Hindus, lots of African variations, and so on. This theme deserves 100 hours 🙂 According to the Christian folk tales, the Earth stands on "pillars" and has four corners. In folk tales from other parts of the world, the Earth is the back of a turtle, an elephant, a trout, or similar :-) And it started from an egg, or maybe something else 🙂 Religious people are funny 🙂 Weird, but funny 🙂
Don’t waste your time here folks. I am a “mortal.” But I’m not ill informed. Dr. Lamb was not prepared for this discussion and offered very little information without significant coaching and tugging from Dr. Erhman. So much more could’ve been accomplished.
Here's how it's spelled: Enūma Eliš or Enuma Elish. I wanted to learn more but had difficulty finding the right search term (the transcript did not help). 🙂
Very interesting discussion. Psalm 89:10 recounts God's slaying of the sea monster. 74:12-17 seems to describes God killing a sea serpent. Seems plausible that the author of this psalm was familiar with the Enuma Elish.
They certainly were. *The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.*** *Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.*** ***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service. *"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"* *"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"* *"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"* *"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"* Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:45 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes. From a Biblical scholar: "Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."* *"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"* ------------------------------------------------------------------ In addition, look up the below articles. *"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* *"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"* *"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"* *"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"* (Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief) *"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"* *"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From? *"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"* Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica (Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years) *"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"* *"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"* *"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"* *"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"* Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"* (8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science) *"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"* *"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"* *"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"* *"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"* *"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"* *"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei (This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies) *"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei *"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
It stems from the Canaanite religion and the chief god El, whose pantheon in Ugarit is called the Elohim. According to the general consensus of scholarship *(even critical Christian scholars),* YHWH was originally incorporated into the Canaanite pantheon as a son of the Canaanite high god El before inheriting the top spot in the pantheon and El's wife Athirat (Asherah) before religious reforms "divorced" them. If you want to see if El is fictional, just read his mythology in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts. His pantheon in Ugarit is called the *Elohim,* literally the plural of El. Interestingly, the Biblical god is also referred to numerous times as Elohim. "When El was young, he came across two beautiful Goddesses washing their clothes in the Sea. They were Athirat (Asherah) and the Goddess Rahmaya, and, after buttering them up by cooking a meal for them, he asked them to choose between being his daughters or wives. They choose the latter and became the mothers of the Gods Shachar "Dawn" and Shalim "Dusk"." *"First, a god named El predates the arrival of the Israelites into Syria-Palestine.* Biblical usage shows El was not just a generic noun, but often a proper name for Israel’s God (e.g., Gen 33:20: “El, the God of Israel”)." "I should add here that it is very clear from the grammar that the noun nachalah in v. 9 should be translated “inheritance.” *Yahweh receives Israel as his “inheritance” (nachalah), just as the other sons of El received their nations as their inheritance (nachal, v. 8).* With this verb, especially in the Hiphil, the object is always what is being given as an inheritance. Thus, Israel is given to Yahweh as his inheritance. ((Here I’m indebted to Dan McClellan.)) It would make no sense for Elyon to give himself an inheritance. Moreover, as I’ve argued elsewhere, it is not just the Gentile nations that are divided up according to the number of the sons of El. It is all of humankind, i.e., “the sons of Adam.” This clearly includes Israel. And the sons of Adam are not divided up according to the number of the sons of El, plus one (i.e., plus Elyon). They are divided up, according to the text, solely according to the number of the sons of El. *Thus, that Yahweh receives Israel as his inheritance makes Yahweh one of the sons of El mentioned in v. 8. Any other construal of the text would constitute its rewriting."* *"The Most Heiser: Yahweh and Elyon in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32 - Religion at the Margins"* based on the *majority scholarly consensus.* (Written by Thom Stark who is a Christian) *"Michael Heiser: A Unique Species? - Religion at the Margins"* (A second response to Michael Heiser) *"Excerpt from “Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan” by John Day - Lehi's Library."* *"The Table of Nations: The Geography of the World in Genesis 10 - TheTorah.com"* (Excluding the short narrative on Nimrod (vv. 8-12), *which appears to be a later addition,* Genesis 10 contains *70* names of nations or cities, a number that was symbolic of totality. Similarly, the descendants of Jacob were *70* in number (Gen 46:37; Exod 1:5), *as were the sons of the supreme Canaanite god El, with whom YHWH became equated.)* *"Ugarit - New World Encyclopedia"* (Ugaritic religion centered on the chief god, Ilu or El, whose titles included "Father of mankind" and "Creator of the creation." The Court of El was referred to as the (plural) 'lhm or ***Elohim,*** a word ***later used by the biblical writers to describe the Hebrew deity*** and translated into English as "God," in the singular. El, which was ***also the name of the God of Abraham,*** was described as an aged deity with white hair, seated on a throne.) *"Mark Smith: Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh’s Ascendency - Lehi's Library"* (Mark Smith is a Catholic) *"God, Gods, and Sons (and Daughters) of God in the Hebrew Bible. Part III | theyellowdart"* *"02 | December | 2009 | Daniel O. McClellan - Psalm 82"* (Daniel McClellan is a Mormon) *"Elohim | Daniel O. McClellan"* (Refer to the article "Angels and Demons (and Michael Heiser)") *"God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible - Almost."* (Pay attention to whose wife Asherah (Athirat) is in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts and how she became the wife of YHWH/Yahweh) *"Yahweh's Divorce from the Goddess Asherah in the Garden of Eden - Mythology Matters."* *"Asherah, God's Wife in Ancient Israel. Part IV - theyellowdart"* *"The Gates of Ishtar - El, was the original god of the bible."* *"The Gates of Ishtar - Anath in the Elephantine Papyri"* (In addition to Asherah (Athirat) being the consort of Yahweh, it also appears some Israelites also viewed the Canaanite goddess Anat(h) as Yahweh's consort) *"Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopedia"* (Refer to the section "Relationship to Biblical Religion") *"The Syncretization of Yahweh and El : reddit/AcademicBiblical"* (For a good summary of all of the above articles) Watch Professor Christine Hayes who lectures on the Hebrew Bible at Yale University. Watch lecture 2 from 40:40 to 41:50 minutes, lecture 7 from 30:00 minutes onwards, lecture 8 from 12:00 to 17:30 minutes and lecture 12 from 27:40 minutes onwards. Watch *"Pagan Origins of Judaism"* by Sigalius Myricantur and read the description in the video to see the scholarship the video is based on. Watch *"How Monotheism Evolved"* by Sigalius Myricantur and watch up to at least 21:40. Watch *"Atheism - A History of God (The Polytheistic Origins of Christianity and Judaism)"* (By a former theist) Watch *"The Origins of Yahweh"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica.
@@LM-jz9vh Thanks. Do you have an idea why the Priests didn't singularize the form for the Hebrew writings? Given (if this was late) the strong emphasis on montheism rather than henotheism.
Ehrman interviews Joseph lam, his expertise is creation myth, did a 12 part lecture course on it recently. near eastern archeology studies. genesis was written long after, Jo Lam starts, in 18th century they saw there is 2 distinct creations. Genesis 1.1 to 2.3 is 1 creation story. says genesis 2.4 is an edit addition, this verse has about 11 occurrences in genesis. Says this is collection of traditions. 2nd half of verse 4 until end of genesis 3 is a new story likely written by another. there is difference in content, style assumptions etc. There is soppose to be symmtry from day 1-3 and 4-6. 10 :00 - Day 1 light is separate, day 2 water above and water below makes sky and ocean and day 3 water is gathers and land forms & plant forms, day 4 sun, moon and stars, day 5 is sea creature and birds, and day 6 land animals. Genesis 1 plants are made on day 3, maybe contradicts genesis 2. light and plants before stars. 7th day sabbath ties to creation of bible saying "god" rests on 7th day. the word yowm means day. Adam is created after garden but it also says Adam or man is to tilt ground to make plants... - contradiction. Adam means human or humanity. 20 :00 - After trees and rivers, bird of air and anmal in feild... human names them but none could be his companion and then the story of the rib while Adam is in sleep and his daughter/wife is fashioned. in genesis 2 the order is completely different. the word his wife is a helper is like a blessed helper not subserviant. Adam is masculine word, but ish and isha meaning masc and fem words came after Eve. In 1st creation story it says elohim or god. in Genesis 2 & 3 he is called Adonai/ Yahwe Elohim. Yahweh is soppose to be the 4 letters. Adonai means lord. In chapter 2 human is like a farmer. Adama means the ground, humans form from soil. 30 :00 - In Genesis 1 bible god is more transcendent and 2 & 3 more personal , making Adam, breathing life and walking in garden. says genesis 2 & 3 likely came first and genesis 1 likely is a reply to mesopotamia. 4 sources J e d & p genesis 1 is p or priestly, genesis 2 & 3 is J or yahwist add on ehrman leaving his faith course. jue scholars knew tis stuff, post enlightenment many ppl see the contradictions. 40 :00 - kuneiform writing on clay is mesopotamia, survive for long time. Found in library north of mosul epics of gilgamesh paralels Noah fIood. babiI had its creation story too. Kuneiform are in akkadian so is related to heb & arabic. Anumaaylesh was on 7 kueiform tablet. has about 90% says marduk is god of creation and makes babiI where other gods meet. Anumalesh says there is male fresh water absu & femaIe saIt water which lead to gods. Tiamat means sea... abyss is tehome in akadian. Says later Marduk defeats tiamat, slices in 2, top used for sky, lower part for land. 50 :00 - genesis 1 has separating which in anumaylesh is personifying it, mentions stars and sea creatures which in other religions are god. says Absu water god is kiI, become fresh water. to them kiI an ilah that becomes passive nature. tigris and euphrates is from eyes as tiamat. humans made in the end. says annumaaylesh was read every new yr this was time of jues exile. genesis 1 says man made in image of God, selam means also statue of. anumaaylesh says their god builds temple but in genesis it ends on sabbath. he teaches on othre creation myths s well.
It's unclear to me who created the myths, but it seems that much of our human antiquities were buried, such as the cuneiform tablets. Thank goodness for modern-day archeologists who have been digging up these ancient treasures which help to expand our knowledge of the past. There has to be more that's buried! Keep on digging!
That is impossible to find these remarkably subtle issues without the help of the two research fellows! Thank you indeed! Do try to get into modern cosmologists’ things on the creation) The manner of thinking is much the same..
I enjoyed listening to this episode with Dr. Lam. I have to think Bart (sorry, I mean Dr. Ehrman) already knew all the Genesis based information. Very good job playing the intelligent questioner.
I wish so much Dr. Ehrman’s classes were accredited. I’d take them all. When I was in college I took courses that used his textbooks… well the NT anyway. But there has to be a way.!
I've heard two possible reasons: 1. Ancient astronomers knew of 7 objects that travelled across the sky (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn). 2. It's tied to the phases of the moon.
The guest said the Genesis story of rest on the 7th day justified the Sabbath every 7 days, but don’t remember anyone saying why the Sabbath is observed every 7 days.
Yea love this stuff. I heard a bunch of this stuff online intro the Hebrew bible Yale course. it's super interesting, and so this was a great video + love to see this guest back
As it says in Revalations there will be no need for the sun for HIS will dwell with us. HIS Light will be all that is needed. By HIS Light photosynthesis will occur, again showing through HIM comes life.
The moment people realise that the who Fable is just "allegory", "spiritual" and "symbolic", the world may perhaps become a more peaceful place, e.g. without the "holy war" the russians are fighting against Ukraine.
Really enjoyed this and will again. I’ve also listened to Dr. Lam’s Wondrium course and wish he was as relaxed and personable there as here. He’s a bit stiff and halting there but still worth listening to. Really great stuff altogether, though.
So having heard the detail Babylonian Creation Epic I have to say it's a million miles away from Genesis in terms of any similarity from which one could deduce a derivative influence or sourcing. It's like saying Barber Poles and Candy Canes are related because they have spiral red stripes. Genesis displays absolutely no personification of the features of the created world. Having conscious entities coexisting as structures of nature is completely absent from the Genesis narrative.
Elohim can be translated as God. The noun is plural but can refer to singular beings. There may be some parts of the bible where it's appropriate to translate it as "the powerful ones" but to always do so is mistaken
Seems to me that Genesis 1 is older. It seems like a game of "telephone" in which many of the details were errored from earlier stories. Sumerian etc. Then as the religion becomes more monotheistic, a God in the singular was added.
Bart Ehrman is my favorite "New Testament" scholar. I have a great deal of respect to him. However , I have trouble with ANY "scholar" who translates into English the Hebrew word "elohiym" as a singular noun instead of the plural noun that it is. The first chapter of Genesis, accurately translated into English says "Dieties (plural) created ......
You know .... if every American who owns real estate reports to the the IRS that they own A HOUSE [singular noun] when in fact they own HOUSES [plural noun]; that would not only be a lie, but fraud. How is it any different than telling the public that there is only ONE "deity" [Eloah] in all of eternity while the "scripture" that Christans and Jews claim is the foundation of their religion says there are many dieties [elohiym] ?
So, every scholar who translates an impersonal plural noun in one language as a "personal" and/or singular noun in another language... is no less a liar and a fraud than any American citizen who tells the IRS they own a house [singular impersonal noun] when in fact they own houses [plural impersonal plural noun].
The talk about Tiamut made me start thinking about the MCU movie The Eternals. I'm sure the Marvel mythology about Tiamut was inspired by this sort of ancient mythology that you guys were talking about.
Reading the transcript, I smiled when I saw the word most repeated by Dr. Lam is "um." Anyhow, too bad you didn't discuss creation Myths from around the world, like ancient Hindu Myths of creation. The idea of a Cosmic Egg isn't really too different from the concept of the Big Bang...😂😂😂
*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.*** *Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.*** ***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service. *"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"* *"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"* *"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"* *"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"* Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:45 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes. From a Biblical scholar: "Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."* *"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"* ------------------------------------------------------------------ In addition, look up the below articles. *"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"* *"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"* *"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"* *"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"* (Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief) *"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"* *"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From? *"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"* Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica (Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years) *"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"* *"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"* *"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"* *"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"* Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"* (8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science) *"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"* *"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"* *"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"* *"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"* *"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"* *"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei (This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies) *"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei *"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
need a part two with Dr. Lam. fascinating!!!
And further episodes! I enjoy learning about the Old Testament very much as well
@@johannOplease❤❤❤❤❤.شؤ🎉ذ٢٨
Always love episodes where Dr. Ehrman brings on his colleagues. Fascinating discussion!
The Mesopotamian creation myths are so intriguing! And when contrasting them with Genesis, it's even more so. Thanks for these lectured. I'm learning a lot.
Great interview! Love hearing from both of you! Would also love a part 2 with Lam!
Great episode. Also worth bringing up Canaanite religion from the Ugaritic texts. The Baal Cycle is really a story of agriculture that kind of bridges the Mesopotamian myths and the Genesis account of creation.
@jeffryphillipsburns Hi
In order to understand the potential of inhaling and exhaling during dreams, as well as in awakening due to the existence of this one eternal air surrounded by the earth, we must ask ourselves what is thought, basically, is the formation of thought in the human physical body from the beginning of birth. In him, like other sensory organs, a person's body is institutionalized in him, or not the phenomenon of a thought, it is that phenomenon located outside of the person's body, which only the person uses his sense organs to increase his intelligence from the source that is for being. He is immersed in it, he perceives, therefore, the answer to his question is based on the four rules of existence that exist under the heavenly umbrella.
-The first rule is appearance Which makes meaning of The Meaning, because the meaning is in the appearance.
-The second rule is the arrangement rule, which creates a structural form in the genesis.
-The third rule is movement.
-The forth rule is the direction of movement, in order to how to be the act of movement.
the rules are the principle of intelligence that today's human achievements are more or less based on these four rules, the meaning of the origin of any container inside the container related to containers, for example, the earth with everything it had, such as creatures in all kinds of species With life and lifelessness, it is located on and inside the earth, which means that a piece of cloth is immersed in this one eternal cup like air, so to understand it better than thinking, you should look for it from the container in which everything is in the form of The envelopes are caught, so the phenomenon of dreams taken from inhaling and exhaling are good signs for an involuntary image of a thought, and involuntaryness in a dream is caused by the potential of the third law, which is movement. As a result, of the four laws in the universe, only The fourth rule is the direction of movement, which is given to the subjects in the form of predestination and free will, and man is the only being that has both the structures of predestination and free will, predestination for deterrence and free will for guidance.
Dr Ehrman is always a win
It's called "Creation Myths of the Ancient World," but really it just touches on the only two myths I want to hear them talk about, and in perfect proportion. This episode is probably my favorite one next to the awesome Mark Goodacre episode on the Gospel of Thomas.
I do like creation myths, and I think it's kind of sad that YECs take it so literally and thus strip all the magic and poetry out of Genesis (especially Ch 1 with its repeating motifs).
Stripping the magic and poetry out of life is what religion does best; well, other than targeting others with cruelty and hate.
YEC = _Young Earth Creationist..._
It took me several minutes to figure out you weren't talking about the _Young Entrepreneur Council._
This is probably a place where you could have just spelled it out rather than using a fairly uncommonly used abbreviation.
Once I got that figured out I have to agree with the rest of your statement.
Who told you Genesis was allegorical? What about Exodus or the virgin birth then?
When these books were written, the writers and the readers did not believe they were allegorical until of course these stories collided with proven science and history.
@@sailorbychoice1 Well, I was being lazy for one thing, but also I tend to hang about on a lot of channels that debunk creationism, so I probably forgot it didn't have such a universal recognition.
@@doyouknoworjustbelieve6694 How on earth do you know what the Biblical authors thought?
GREAT interview. Have him on AGAIN. Thanks
Worth a follow up episode
"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." *Voltaire*
Another gem from BE, how good is that!
I'm signed up for the course, so truly thankful you offered it for free, I would take every course you have if I could afford it, I'm surviving at the time as a single mom on 880.00 a month until disability is approved, so again thank you so much for offering this course for free😊❤
Really appreciate your work. Very interesting. Thanks for a Scholarly presentation
Interviews are always best when one scholar directs the questioning to the second scholar; a lay person could not have conducted this successful of an informing interview. Thanks,
Just downloaded Dr. Lam's audiobook on Audible. Looking forward to listening to it.
When I learned the Greek mythology of the Pandora's box story, suddenly the story of Adam and Eve came to mind.
Yes. Prometheus molded man from clay. Sounds familiar
I've rarely met someone who reads the Bible sequentially. In response to Dr. Lam's comment that most people read genesis or the Bible in order.
Reading the Fable sequentially would feel strange to most people who are used to only reading carefully cherrypicked verses.
I have tried reading the Fable sequentially. It is a weird book, starting with all the obvious misconceptions about "creation" and boring, silly lists of people who live for hundreds of years. It goes on with the weird myth about "Tower of Babel" and how different languages arose, very far from reality. Then we are told huge numbers of rules about how to sacrifice animals, together with descriptions of a long series of massacres where The Invisible Man slaughtered huge numbers of innocent people in order to support his own "chosen people", the Israelites, a bit similar to how a person closer to our time sent huge numbers of innocent people into gas chambers in order to support HIS "chosen people", the "Aryan race". It continues like this, with absurd nonsense.
We're you listening? He didn't say that people read the BOOKS of the Bible sequentially. He said people read the CHAPTERS of the book of Genesis sequentially.
Very interesting discussion.
This was a thoroughly enjoyable discussion. I enjoyed the mix of close textual analysis and links to greater cultural shifts. Thank you!
This was great, but I wish there was more! Dr. Lam needs to hop on Mythvision for like 3hrs.
There’s simply no polite way to tell people they’ve dedicated their lives to an illusion.
Daniel Dennett
If it gives them comfort its no more a waste than a sports fan, a gamer, or the average person spending 5 hours per day on recreational screen time. The average Christian probably spends two hours per week on their beliefs and practices. Plus 40% of Christian’s also follow non-Christian supernatural beliefs and practices such as reincarnation and astrology(pew research).
Illusions like you were holding the flashlight when the first human evolved?
Liberal scholars are never wrong.
Aleays agree with authorities and experts. Oh, wait! That's the fallacy of appealing to authority.
Everyone is a fideist. Which view do you believe? The biblical eorldview or the ever changing worldview of scientism?
I would love for Bart D. Ehrman to talk about Zoroastrianism’s influence on the New Testament with Martin Schwartz who is an expert on the Avesta which is the name of the Zoroastrian bible.
I just recognized the similarity to the Egyptian creation myth, were water (Nun) was also already there in the beginning.
Would be great to get Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou , shes also well versed in this topic and her book was so incredible
I find it interesting that the male came first in Genesis, when all fetuses start out female until about the 7 week of gestation.
@@MikeJJJenkin If it was so easy to make people out of clay, then why would they need reproductive organs? He could have just made a bunch of clay people and been done with it. None of any of the buybull makes logical sense of you actually give it any thought at all.
And you would think that if "adam" was made out of "adamah," then "ish" would have been made out of "ishshah," not the other way around.
@@rhondah1587 The Bible doesn’t say the clay fashioning is “easy”, does it? The reproductive organs are necessary so that God can be done with His work while the humans go about being fruitful and multiplying. Now if Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life, as they were threatening to, and become immortal, all that multplying might not have have been necessary, but God was wary of the humans becoming too god-like.
Once you invoke magic there’s no need to follow science…I mean if Eve was literally made from Adam - from his DNA - then she was the first transgender woman since she had x and Y chromosomes. But when you invoke magic you just say, God changed her DNA. When you apply contemporary scientific understanding to ancient stories you’ll always find conflicts. We no longer consider the fundamental elements to be earth, fire, water and air.
I read an interesting take about this, basically saying the word for "rib" can also mean "side" and that man and woman were created when Adam (both genders, made in the image of the creator) was split in half. Two equal humans rather than Eve being made from a small part of Adam. (Spoke too soon, they kind of get into this concept in the video haha)
Another super interesting program, thanks so much.
Bart, not just this episode, but largely, you use your sort of "fame" or "standing" to bring other people to light to those of us who don't know. Awesome
And, your questions are so skillful. You ask questions that you know the answers to, in order to encourage your partner to elaborate on what they know. Well Done
No, he's proselytizing for his atheist religion much like a prosperity preacher. He's getting rich from his books and lectures, and he's selling temporsry happiness in the here and now. In eternity the temporal happiness comes to an end. And he's probably lying about his temporal happiness anyway.
@@keitho8131 It is sort of like pollsters who ask questions to get the results they want. That's called the fallacy of asserting the consequent.
Guys, Here is The True Savior
YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
Fascinating. I really liked the dissection of the Hebrew words and their interpretations. Rich! Thank you for excellent discussion.
I've always seen Genesis 1 as a liturgical text. It is built on a verse/refrain format where one part of the assembly or a leader would recite the the part proclaiming the creation portion and the other part would respond with "And there was evening and there was morning, the #th day."
i really appreciate the directions you have taken your scholarship. you have become more accessible. you can’t please everyone all the time.
My preferred version of Genesis is R. Crumb’s Illustrated Book of Genesis! 😁
I've not seen that--but I imagine it is fabulous!
Totally! Keep on truckin'...
I am so grateful for this show because I learn so much. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.
This is fascinating, thank you.
Thank you both.
I have heard that there is no mention of god waking Adam from deep sleep leading to the mystics claim that this is still a dream or illusion.
Also if Adam is ungendered it reminds me of Pluto's Symposium.
The guest states that the Genesis chapter 1 creation myth is a monotheistic creation myth, but doesn't mention that the name Elohim is plural, not singular.
My favourite creation story is Snorri Sturlusons version in the Edda. A giant called Ymir is killed by the gods, and all his bodyparts are used to create earth. His skull is the dome, his eyelashes are the fence surrounding Middle-Earth.
Wait. There is a Middle Earth in the Edda?
@@longcastle4863 Just as Genesis borrows, so does Tolkien.
@@jeffryphillipsburns Thanks for the info.
@longcastle4863 There sure is. Even some names of the Dwarves in the Hobbit come from the Edda.
@@longcastle4863 What did you think "Midgard" meant?
The questions I have are these. What do we know of the Canaanite creation? How much of Israelite creation can be attributed to this origin? How many specific concepts were derived from the Babylonians (and Sumerians by extension) and possibly the Zoroastrians during the exile? Are there any significant differences in the Samaritan Torah in this regard? Mainly though I am very interested in Canaanite origins as a mythological basis that was later added to and modified. I'd like to see a verse by verse breakdown along these lines.
You might find some answers on a channel called Esoterica. I know on a couple of his videos he does discuss some of the things you raise in a fairly detailed way.
@@longcastle4863 I can't see Dr. Sledge breaking down Genesis in a verse by verse comparison to Canaanite creation but thanks anyway.
Arabic language, being Semitic and closely related to Hebrew and shares the same roots for the words, have richer dictionary and wider explanation of Semitic terms.
Adam : the crust of the earth, usually the clay part. According to Arabic dictionary
Really 🧐 What are your thoughts about that?
great show Bart ...as usual
26.00-28.00 . I am surprised that as a scholar he didn't mention that "Elohim" is plural. Which is then followed by a singular verb! Mystery already and the Bible hasn't even started
"Elohim" is a collection of many Kanaanite gods. It's a bit like a football team with many players. Is there one singular team or a plurality of players? A random search on internet reveals sentences like "Minnesota Vikings is playing against New Orleans Saints on Nov 12". "Minnesota Vikings" seems to be singular :-)
Hello Dr., have you debated Dr. Frank Turek or is that something that will never happen? I learn a lot from both of your opposing viewpoints and enjoy the rhetoric. I searched TH-cam but was not able to find anything with you two debating or having a conversation about Christianity.
Not sure why he would. Turek is a ... very conservative Bible believer, and a very angry person. Also very condescending.
@@kencreten7308 Okay.
we need part 2 please
Wondrium has sort of been diluted since it's Great Courses days. There is still good stuff, but there is a lot of fluff. Look forward to seeing Joseph's lectures
Hey, thank you so much for this. I have thought for a decade or something that it was obvious that God didn't create everything because he didn't create "the waters," and I've never heard anybody address this point before, and Christians all seem to think he created everything. It's been 10 years or something and I secretly have felt stupid the whole time, like I'm just not getting it, but there it is. I sincerely appreciate you and your work.
Was auto playing videos when this one started and I clicked over to the tab and thought for a split second "Wow! Megan looks really different!", lol.
In my view, the real Megan is more beautiful than this one, even with her strange glasses and hair color.
Bart, have you come across Michael Witzel’s “Origins of the World’s Mythologies”? I would love to hear what you have to say about it - your critique! What you agree with, and whether there’s much or anything that you disagree with fundamentally? 😇😇😇
So many smart comments! Professor Bart doesn't attract dummies to his channel!
What I see is the friction between the nomadic life and the settled life. Farmer and shop keeper. Those from the city, the city is created by god for man and gods temple is within the city. Those from the land are within gods temple just being here. I see that dichotomy in the two creation stories.
The people in the desert in Israel are obviously jealous on the people in the much more advanced agricultural civilisations in Babylon and Egypt, where the rivers create great possibilities for rich harvests. Hate against Babylon and Egypt is a central theme in the Fable.
"Happy is the one
who grasps your little children
and smashes them on the rocks"
(Book of psalms 137:9)
In the Marduk story, he battles Tiamat and wins, cuts her body down the middle and uses one half to create the sky and the other half to create the land. There are quite a few similarities with the Genesis story which leads one to assume the ancient Hebrews had to have picked up a lot of their lore from their time in Persia. Cyrus the Great who sent them back to Israel told them to go back to their lands and write their history. They wrote stories using motifs they had learned elsewhere. Obvious is obvious.
The Jews were captives in Mesopotamia, not Persia.
There is a great new channel I've discovered called _Esoterica._ The host covers all kinds of interesting text in scholarly detail and does discuss with some thoroughness some of the tropics you brought up in some of his videos . And yes some definite connections with other cultures in the development of the Israelite religion and belief system.
@longcastle4863 Absolutely there was.
*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.***
*Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.***
***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service.
*"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"*
*"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"*
Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:45 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes.
From a Biblical scholar:
"Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."*
*"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"*
------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition, look up the below articles.
*"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"*
*"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"*
*"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"*
(Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief)
*"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"*
*"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From?
*"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"*
Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica
(Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years)
*"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"*
*"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"*
*"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"*
*"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"*
Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"*
(8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science)
*"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"*
*"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"*
*"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"*
*"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"*
*"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"*
*"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei
(This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies)
*"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei
*"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
What did God do on his day off?
@@MikeJJJenkinWhat type of pizza. I bet it was Canadian bacon and pineapple.
Watched football
@@MikeJJJenkin Manchester United
Apparently he went on vacation. A very very long vacation.
Did some chores, watched a few Misquoting Jesus, caught up on sleep. Solid "me time" stuff.
What happened in Genesis 1 & 2, is similar to what happened in Ezekiel 38 & 39. I have written a presentation, joining 1 & 2. Nothing wrong.
There was so much missed in the creation stories from all over the world their stories that absolutely mimic exactly the Hebrew story of creation sad part is you didn't even mention the Atra hasis or even the earlier Sumerian creation story
The various creation myths can be extremely different, but you will also of course be able to find somethings similar if you look with enough energy and lack of critical sense. After all, a bicycle, an air plane and an eye are very similar since they all have round parts.
Odd thing I notice is how god doesn't seem to be planning for a lot of people here. He makes this one guy, then makes him some animals because he's lonely, then makes a woman when that doesn't work out. If Adam hadn't been lonely, would god just have been happy to leave the whole thing at one person?
Women are always an afterthought -- the helper, the sidekick & of course, the babymaker. It's always about men bc it's all written by and for MEN. Women are sinful, evil, ashamed and responsible for everyone's downfall. We had no souls, remember? It is clear we were & are meant to suffer in pain. The example of "gutting one like a fish" was nauseating. What a waste of time trying to decipher books we already know were deliberately altered many times by many people in many places! People today are mostly incapable of the critical thinking that we really need. Christians -- esp YEC -- can start by watching Inherit the Wind, for example.
Was God surprised that the animals didn't work out as "companions"?
The first edition of the bible that was divided into chapters was a 13th century edition of the Vulgate.
Thanks ;o)
@@mikeharrison1868 The division of the Bible into chapters and verses really came with the advent of printing. You had a multitude of copies with the same size of pages and the same print size and font. You now knew what page a chapter started on.
@@mayermargolis8990 That is an argument in favor of page numbers, not chapters and verses.
I have been impressed with the order in Genesis - light, energy, space-time, matter.
why? also that's inaccurate
You have to be an extremely tolerant person in order to find anything to "impress" you in the weird stories in the Fable.
Joe has a decent speaking voice so he isn't naturally boring but Bart has to pull every bit of information out of him and then organize it for him in review.
The two accounts have different Gods named
Yes, and the two "gods" are very different indeed.
Elohim is invisible, is everywhere at the same time, and was made as a collection of Kanaanite gods.
YHWH started as a Babylonian/Egyptian war god, is visible, walks around, talks to people, is one place at a time, and sends "angels" when he is too busy to attend an event himself.
What should stop people from having differing fantasies about "God"? People can have any "gods" they want.
The best book on this is THE BIBLE WITH SOURCES REVEALED by Richard Friedman. He has all the sections/insertions from various sources (according to the documentary hypothesis) color coded so you can clearly identify them.
The tone of the guest is rather sarcastic for the topic lol. I like the last part the most, about the temple. I think that's why some mystic thoughts say human is temple of god. Also the mixing of water theory analysis was good one too.. thanks
He used the same" you know" over and over again.Also the hand gesturing was distracting.
Is Tiamat being referred to as the beast from the sea in Revelation?
The need for a creator for anything you find on this earth, like a watch. The perplexing idea of God created the world, and they know who the god is. They knew he had a son. And they know his name.Like finding a watch, and you know the watch creator's family by just looking at a watch that was found.
There are so many funny creation myths around in the world. The Chinese, the Norse, the Mayas, the Hindus, lots of African variations, and so on. This theme deserves 100 hours 🙂
According to the Christian folk tales, the Earth stands on "pillars" and has four corners. In folk tales from other parts of the world, the Earth is the back of a turtle, an elephant, a trout, or similar :-) And it started from an egg, or maybe something else 🙂
Religious people are funny 🙂 Weird, but funny 🙂
Don’t waste your time here folks. I am a “mortal.” But I’m not ill informed. Dr. Lamb was not prepared for this discussion and offered very little information without significant coaching and tugging from Dr. Erhman. So much more could’ve been accomplished.
Wife and I watched the Wondrium course from Dr. Lam. Excellent.
Here's how it's spelled: Enūma Eliš or Enuma Elish. I wanted to learn more but had difficulty finding the right search term (the transcript did not help). 🙂
Any relation to Billie Eilish?
Very interesting discussion. Psalm 89:10 recounts God's slaying of the sea monster. 74:12-17 seems to describes God killing a sea serpent. Seems plausible that the author of this psalm was familiar with the Enuma Elish.
They certainly were.
*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.***
*Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.***
***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service.
*"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"*
*"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"*
Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:45 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes.
From a Biblical scholar:
"Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."*
*"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"*
------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition, look up the below articles.
*"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"*
*"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"*
*"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"*
(Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief)
*"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"*
*"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From?
*"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"*
Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica
(Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years)
*"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"*
*"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"*
*"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"*
*"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"*
Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"*
(8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science)
*"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"*
*"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"*
*"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"*
*"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"*
*"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"*
*"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei
(This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies)
*"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei
*"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
Would have been interesting to hear about the etymology of Elohim, which is plural in form (matching the Let us...).
It stems from the Canaanite religion and the chief god El, whose pantheon in Ugarit is called the Elohim.
According to the general consensus of scholarship *(even critical Christian scholars),* YHWH was originally incorporated into the Canaanite pantheon as a son of the Canaanite high god El before inheriting the top spot in the pantheon and El's wife Athirat (Asherah) before religious reforms "divorced" them. If you want to see if El is fictional, just read his mythology in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts. His pantheon in Ugarit is called the *Elohim,* literally the plural of El. Interestingly, the Biblical god is also referred to numerous times as Elohim.
"When El was young, he came across two beautiful Goddesses washing their clothes in the Sea. They were Athirat (Asherah) and the Goddess Rahmaya, and, after buttering them up by cooking a meal for them, he asked them to choose between being his daughters or wives. They choose the latter and became the mothers of the Gods Shachar "Dawn" and Shalim "Dusk"."
*"First, a god named El predates the arrival of the Israelites into Syria-Palestine.* Biblical usage shows El was not just a generic noun, but often a proper name for Israel’s God (e.g., Gen 33:20: “El, the God of Israel”)."
"I should add here that it is very clear from the grammar that the noun nachalah in v. 9 should be translated “inheritance.” *Yahweh receives Israel as his “inheritance” (nachalah), just as the other sons of El received their nations as their inheritance (nachal, v. 8).* With this verb, especially in the Hiphil, the object is always what is being given as an inheritance. Thus, Israel is given to Yahweh as his inheritance. ((Here I’m indebted to Dan McClellan.)) It would make no sense for Elyon to give himself an inheritance. Moreover, as I’ve argued elsewhere, it is not just the Gentile nations that are divided up according to the number of the sons of El. It is all of humankind, i.e., “the sons of Adam.” This clearly includes Israel. And the sons of Adam are not divided up according to the number of the sons of El, plus one (i.e., plus Elyon). They are divided up, according to the text, solely according to the number of the sons of El. *Thus, that Yahweh receives Israel as his inheritance makes Yahweh one of the sons of El mentioned in v. 8. Any other construal of the text would constitute its rewriting."*
*"The Most Heiser: Yahweh and Elyon in Psalm 82 and Deuteronomy 32 - Religion at the Margins"* based on the *majority scholarly consensus.*
(Written by Thom Stark who is a Christian)
*"Michael Heiser: A Unique Species? - Religion at the Margins"*
(A second response to Michael Heiser)
*"Excerpt from “Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan” by John Day - Lehi's Library."*
*"The Table of Nations: The Geography of the World in Genesis 10 - TheTorah.com"*
(Excluding the short narrative on Nimrod (vv. 8-12), *which appears to be a later addition,* Genesis 10 contains *70* names of nations or cities, a number that was symbolic of totality. Similarly, the descendants of Jacob were *70* in number (Gen 46:37; Exod 1:5), *as were the sons of the supreme Canaanite god El, with whom YHWH became equated.)*
*"Ugarit - New World Encyclopedia"*
(Ugaritic religion centered on the chief god, Ilu or El, whose titles included "Father of mankind" and "Creator of the creation." The Court of El was referred to as the (plural) 'lhm or ***Elohim,*** a word ***later used by the biblical writers to describe the Hebrew deity*** and translated into English as "God," in the singular.
El, which was ***also the name of the God of Abraham,*** was described as an aged deity with white hair, seated on a throne.)
*"Mark Smith: Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh’s Ascendency - Lehi's Library"*
(Mark Smith is a Catholic)
*"God, Gods, and Sons (and Daughters) of God in the Hebrew Bible. Part III | theyellowdart"*
*"02 | December | 2009 | Daniel O. McClellan - Psalm 82"*
(Daniel McClellan is a Mormon)
*"Elohim | Daniel O. McClellan"*
(Refer to the article "Angels and Demons (and Michael Heiser)")
*"God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible - Almost."*
(Pay attention to whose wife Asherah (Athirat) is in the Ugaritic/Canaanite texts and how she became the wife of YHWH/Yahweh)
*"Yahweh's Divorce from the Goddess Asherah in the Garden of Eden - Mythology Matters."*
*"Asherah, God's Wife in Ancient Israel. Part IV - theyellowdart"*
*"The Gates of Ishtar - El, was the original god of the bible."*
*"The Gates of Ishtar - Anath in the Elephantine Papyri"*
(In addition to Asherah (Athirat) being the consort of Yahweh, it also appears some Israelites also viewed the Canaanite goddess Anat(h) as Yahweh's consort)
*"Canaanite Religion - New World Encyclopedia"*
(Refer to the section "Relationship to Biblical Religion")
*"The Syncretization of Yahweh and El : reddit/AcademicBiblical"*
(For a good summary of all of the above articles)
Watch Professor Christine Hayes who lectures on the Hebrew Bible at Yale University. Watch lecture 2 from 40:40 to 41:50 minutes, lecture 7 from 30:00 minutes onwards, lecture 8 from 12:00 to 17:30 minutes and lecture 12 from 27:40 minutes onwards.
Watch *"Pagan Origins of Judaism"* by Sigalius Myricantur and read the description in the video to see the scholarship the video is based on.
Watch *"How Monotheism Evolved"* by Sigalius Myricantur and watch up to at least 21:40.
Watch *"Atheism - A History of God (The Polytheistic Origins of Christianity and Judaism)"*
(By a former theist)
Watch *"The Origins of Yahweh"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica.
@@LM-jz9vh Thanks. Do you have an idea why the Priests didn't singularize the form for the Hebrew writings? Given (if this was late) the strong emphasis on montheism rather than henotheism.
@@LM-jz9vh Thanks. Interesting. The more I learn about the Fable and the historical origins, the more weird it seems.
The operative word: myths. Talking to you Americans south of the Mason-Dixon line - these are myths.
Don't believe all stereotypes
Ehrman interviews Joseph lam, his expertise is creation myth, did a 12 part lecture course on it recently. near eastern archeology studies. genesis was written long after,
Jo Lam starts, in 18th century they saw there is 2 distinct creations.
Genesis 1.1 to 2.3 is 1 creation story. says genesis 2.4 is an edit addition, this verse has about 11 occurrences in genesis. Says this is collection of traditions.
2nd half of verse 4 until end of genesis 3 is a new story likely written by another.
there is difference in content, style assumptions etc.
There is soppose to be symmtry from day 1-3 and 4-6.
10 :00 -
Day 1 light is separate, day 2 water above and water below makes sky and ocean and day 3 water is gathers and land forms & plant forms, day 4 sun, moon and stars, day 5 is sea creature and birds, and day 6 land animals.
Genesis 1 plants are made on day 3, maybe contradicts genesis 2. light and plants before stars.
7th day sabbath ties to creation of bible saying "god" rests on 7th day.
the word yowm means day.
Adam is created after garden but it also says Adam or man is to tilt ground to make plants... - contradiction.
Adam means human or humanity.
20 :00 -
After trees and rivers, bird of air and anmal in feild... human names them but none could be his companion and then the story of the rib while Adam is in sleep and his daughter/wife is fashioned.
in genesis 2 the order is completely different.
the word his wife is a helper is like a blessed helper not subserviant.
Adam is masculine word, but ish and isha meaning masc and fem words came after Eve.
In 1st creation story it says elohim or god.
in Genesis 2 & 3 he is called Adonai/ Yahwe Elohim.
Yahweh is soppose to be the 4 letters.
Adonai means lord.
In chapter 2 human is like a farmer.
Adama means the ground, humans form from soil.
30 :00 -
In Genesis 1 bible god is more transcendent and 2 & 3 more personal , making Adam, breathing life and walking in garden.
says genesis 2 & 3 likely came first and genesis 1 likely is a reply to mesopotamia.
4 sources J e d & p
genesis 1 is p or priestly, genesis 2 & 3 is J or yahwist
add on ehrman leaving his faith course.
jue scholars knew tis stuff, post enlightenment many ppl see the contradictions.
40 :00 -
kuneiform writing on clay is mesopotamia, survive for long time.
Found in library north of mosul
epics of gilgamesh paralels Noah fIood.
babiI had its creation story too.
Kuneiform are in akkadian so is related to heb & arabic.
Anumaaylesh was on 7 kueiform tablet. has about 90%
says marduk is god of creation and makes babiI where other gods meet.
Anumalesh says there is male fresh water absu & femaIe saIt water which lead to gods.
Tiamat means sea... abyss is tehome in akadian.
Says later Marduk defeats tiamat, slices in 2, top used for sky, lower part for land.
50 :00 -
genesis 1 has separating which in anumaylesh is personifying it, mentions stars and sea creatures which in other religions are god.
says Absu water god is kiI, become fresh water.
to them kiI an ilah that becomes passive nature.
tigris and euphrates is from eyes as tiamat.
humans made in the end.
says annumaaylesh was read every new yr
this was time of jues exile.
genesis 1 says man made in image of God, selam means also statue of.
anumaaylesh says their god builds temple but in genesis it ends on sabbath.
he teaches on othre creation myths s well.
It's unclear to me who created the myths, but it seems that much of our human antiquities were buried, such as the cuneiform tablets. Thank goodness for modern-day archeologists who have been digging up these ancient treasures which help to expand our knowledge of the past.
There has to be more that's buried! Keep on digging!
Oooooo! Tell about the baculum theory!
That is impossible to find these remarkably subtle issues without the help of the two research fellows! Thank you indeed!
Do try to get into modern cosmologists’ things on the creation)
The manner of thinking is much the same..
The association of day and daylight with sun and sunlight, or dawn and dusk with the same, doesn't seem to have been secure with ancient peoples.
I enjoyed listening to this episode with Dr. Lam. I have to think Bart (sorry, I mean Dr. Ehrman) already knew all the Genesis based information. Very good job playing the intelligent questioner.
I wish so much Dr. Ehrman’s classes were accredited. I’d take them all. When I was in college I took courses that used his textbooks… well the NT anyway. But there has to be a way.!
Any thoughts on why it was 7 days. Other values seem more natural. For example, 10 is the number of digits or maybe 8 because it is 3 times even
7 goes into 365 better then 10. Laid the foundation for the days of the week and weeks of the year. Gods plan. 😊
I've heard two possible reasons:
1. Ancient astronomers knew of 7 objects that travelled across the sky (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, saturn).
2. It's tied to the phases of the moon.
The guest said the Genesis story of rest on the 7th day justified the Sabbath every 7 days, but don’t remember anyone saying why the Sabbath is observed every 7 days.
The ancient Samarians came up with the 7 day week to coordinate with the phases of the moon. That was established long before Genesis was written.
Was is a _rib_ or the _half_ of Adam?
I've heard some of the names of the Israelite god were actually different gods, and early Israelites weren't monotheistic ... Any chance of it?
Yea love this stuff. I heard a bunch of this stuff online intro the Hebrew bible Yale course. it's super interesting, and so this was a great video + love to see this guest back
"They are probably not going to think chaotic water" Well, Bart, that is sort of where science says life came from so .............
As it says in Revalations there will be no need for the sun for HIS will dwell with us. HIS Light will be all that is needed.
By HIS Light photosynthesis will occur, again showing through HIM comes life.
Paul said it's allegory..!!!
The moment people realise that the who Fable is just "allegory", "spiritual" and "symbolic", the world may perhaps become a more peaceful place, e.g. without the "holy war" the russians are fighting against Ukraine.
Really enjoyed this and will again. I’ve also listened to Dr. Lam’s Wondrium course and wish he was as relaxed and personable there as here. He’s a bit stiff and halting there but still worth listening to. Really great stuff altogether, though.
Thanks! Please more guest speakers
In Dupont, DC, there was a florist/plant shop called "The Third Day". No, they were NOT religious fundamentalists.....just very clever.
who created water?
So having heard the detail Babylonian Creation Epic I have to say it's a million miles away from Genesis in terms of any similarity from which one could deduce a derivative influence or sourcing. It's like saying Barber Poles and Candy Canes are related because they have spiral red stripes. Genesis displays absolutely no personification of the features of the created world. Having conscious entities coexisting as structures of nature is completely absent from the Genesis narrative.
[Isa 45:7 KJV] 7 I form the light, and create darkness:
The meaning is: In the days that Yehovah Elohym created the Heavens and the Earth.
Elohim does not translate to "god", it is "the gods". Mauro Biglino and Paul Wallis argue that it can all be translated to mean "the powerful ones".
Elohim can be translated as God. The noun is plural but can refer to singular beings. There may be some parts of the bible where it's appropriate to translate it as "the powerful ones" but to always do so is mistaken
Seems to me that Genesis 1 is older. It seems like a game of "telephone" in which many of the details were errored from earlier stories. Sumerian etc.
Then as the religion becomes more monotheistic, a God in the singular was added.
Didn't know frodan was an ancient history scholar
I would like to see Bart interview Irving Finkel about Noah's ark. That would be an academic crossover I would be down for.
Bart Ehrman is my favorite "New Testament" scholar. I have a great deal of respect to him. However , I have trouble with ANY "scholar" who translates into English the Hebrew word "elohiym" as a singular noun instead of the plural noun that it is. The first chapter of Genesis, accurately translated into English says "Dieties (plural) created ......
Every scholar that translates Elohiym as a singular "god" instead of the plural word that it is in the original language ...... is a problem.
You know .... if every American who owns real estate reports to the the IRS that they own A HOUSE [singular noun] when in fact they own HOUSES [plural noun]; that would not only be a lie, but fraud. How is it any different than telling the public that there is only ONE "deity" [Eloah] in all of eternity while the "scripture" that Christans and Jews claim is the foundation of their religion says there are many dieties [elohiym] ?
So, every scholar who translates an impersonal plural noun in one language as a "personal" and/or singular noun in another language... is no less a liar and a fraud than any American citizen who tells the IRS they own a house [singular impersonal noun] when in fact they own houses [plural impersonal plural noun].
The talk about Tiamut made me start thinking about the MCU movie The Eternals. I'm sure the Marvel mythology about Tiamut was inspired by this sort of ancient mythology that you guys were talking about.
What do you mean that "adam" is Human with a capital H? Did ancient Hebrew have capital letters?
no. He just means Human as a name. In English we capitalise name. And Adam means "humanity, man" or something like that.
Reading the transcript, I smiled when I saw the word most repeated by Dr. Lam is "um." Anyhow, too bad you didn't discuss creation Myths from around the world, like ancient Hindu Myths of creation. The idea of a Cosmic Egg isn't really too different from the concept of the Big Bang...😂😂😂
*The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis.* Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. ***These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.***
*Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer,* translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians ***before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible.***
***In revising the Mesopotamian creation story for their own ends, the Hebrew scribes tightened the narrative and the focus but retained the concept of the all-powerful deity who brings order from chaos.*** Marduk, in the Enuma Elish, establishes the recognizable order of the world - *just as God does in the Genesis tale* - and human beings are expected to recognize this great gift and honor the deity through service.
*"Enuma Elish - The Babylonian Epic of Creation - Full Text - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"Sumerian Is the World's Oldest Written Language | ProLingo"*
*"Sumerian Civilization: Inventing the Future - World History Encyclopedia"*
*"The Myth of Adapa - World History Encyclopedia"*
Also discussed by Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her 1st lecture of the series on the Hebrew Bible from 8:45 to 14:30 minutes, lecture 3 from 28:30 to 41:35 minutes, lecture 4 from 0:00 up to 21:30 minutes and 24:00 up to 35:30 minutes and lecture 7 from 24:20 to 25:10 minutes.
From a Biblical scholar:
"Many stories in the ancient world have their origins in other stories and were borrowed and modified from other or earlier peoples. *For instance, many of the stories now preserved in the Bible are* ***modified*** *versions of stories that existed in the cultures and traditions of Israel’s* ***older*** *contemporaries.* Stories about the creation of the universe, a cataclysmic universal flood, digging wells as land markers, the naming of important cultic sites, gods giving laws to their people, and even stories about gods decreeing the possession of land to their people were all part of the cultural and literary matrix of the ancient Near East. *Biblical scribes freely* ***adopted and modified*** *these stories as a means to express their own identity, origins, and customs."*
*"Stories from the Bible"* by Dr Steven DiMattei, from his website *"Biblical Contradictions"*
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In addition, look up the below articles.
*"Yahweh was just an ancient Canaanite god. We have been deceived! - Escaping Christian Fundamentalism"*
*"Debunking the Devil - Michael A. Sherlock (Author)"*
*"The Greatest Trick Religion Ever Pulled: Convincing Us That Satan Exists | Atheomedy"*
*"Zoroastrianism And Persian Mythology: The Foundation Of Belief"*
(Scroll to the last section: Zoroastrianism is the Foundation of Western Belief)
*"10 Ways The Bible Was Influenced By Other Religions - Listverse"*
*"January | 2014 | Atheomedy"* - Where the Hell Did the Idea of Hell Come From?
*"Retired bishop explains the reason why the Church invented "Hell" - Ideapod"*
Watch *"The Origins of Salvation, Judgement and Hell"* by Derreck Bennett at Atheologica
(Sensitive theists should only watch from 7:00 to 17:30 minutes as evangelical Christians are lambasted. He's a former theist and has been studying the scholarship and comparative religions for over 15 years)
*"Top Ten Reasons Noah’s Flood is Mythology - The Sensuous Curmudgeon"*
*"Forget about Noah's Ark; There Was No Worldwide Flood | Bible Interp"*
*"The Search for Noah’s Flood - Biblical Archaeology Society"*
*"Eridu Genesis - World History Encyclopedia"*
Watch *"How Aron Ra Debunks Noah's Flood"*
(8 part series debunking Noah's flood using multiple branches of science)
*"The Adam and Eve myth - News24"*
*"Before Adam and Eve - Psychology Today"*
*"Gilgamesh vs. Noah - Wordpress"*
*"Parallelism between “The Hymn to Aten” and Psalm 104 - Project Augustine"*
*"Old Testament Tales Were Stolen From Other Cultures - Griffin"*
*"Studying the Bible"* - by Dr Steven DiMattei
(This particular article from a critical Biblical scholar highlights how the authors of the Hebrew Bible used their *fictional* god as a mouthpiece for their own views and ideologies)
*"How do we know that the biblical writers were* ***not*** *writing history?"* -- by Dr Steven DiMattei
*"Contradictions in the Bible | Identified verse by verse and explained using the most up-to-date scholarly information about the Bible, its texts, and the men who wrote them"* -- by Dr. Steven DiMattei
The word "human" also means "eaethling'.