Here to complain that I'm wrong? I've saved you the effort with this handy FAQ, IT'S JUST A TATTOO It's a tribal tatoo. It's canonically described as such multiple times. The show has associated it with his Indigenous identity. THE HAIR WAS SHORT FOR MILITARY REASONS Others had long hair. THAT DOESN'T MEEN IT'S A QUEER THING This is literally a trope. BUT HER HAIR WAS SHORT BEFORE Google the tropes Power Hair and Boyish Short Hair to understand the difference. BUT THE SIMULATION WAS CREATED BY [FICTIONAL SPECIES X] They're human biases that make no sense outside of those contexts. Ultimately, they were all written by humans. If a puppet punches you, you don't blame the puppet. THIS ALL SOUNDS LIKE PEOPLE HAVING TO CONSIDER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS, AND THAT SCARES ME SO I'D RATHER JUST CARRY ON THINKING IT'S FINE Thank you for being honest. Ultimately if you accentuate an aspect of a character when you make them evil, you're linking those two values. It might not be conscious, it might not be intended, but that's irrelevant. It's what you're doing. Our old friend Hays knew this, which is why we had decades of queer people being represented only as deviant or evil. You will forgive me if I have no patience for its continuation, deliberate or otherwise, for any minority.
Despite having numerous friends in those communities, i have enough privilege to have completely have missed the villian-coding. Thank you for pointing that out because i feel like somewhat of a piece of shit for it and i don't want to be a piece of shit, so you've given me a chance to act my values.
Interresting.. I wonder if it is a deliberate choice by the writers, or the costume department. I remember the makup and costume department on tng got handed a a lot of liberty in their interpretations of the script. Personally I always thought they where going more the classic nazi route. Black Leather, short haircuts, scars, evil smirks, facist viewpoints, tattoes to the face, exaggerated to become more imposive and scary. Didn't really connect it to an anti queer message. Wonder how u feel about the ds9 mirror episodes. I suppose I will have to wait a long while for those. :)
@@CamillaMix95 you're correct, whether that intend to or not, the writers are promoting the notions that tribal identities or sexual preferences should be scary.
Did you digress? I don't get this, what happened here? I watched this episode back in the day and I don't know where does this faq fit. 🤔 Tattoo, hairstyle, queer, Humans from your side of the world care about these little assumptions? I don't understand why it's so important to classify and name everything for vous, mes Amis And I always that in Hollywood my ancestors were represented like evil people. 🤔 And now what about tong xi lié Even if it's not the spelling that would sound correctly, honestly. English is easy to use because few words and verbs can be sustantivised or adjectivised, but pronunciation... And worse when the language is Mandarin or sp, I'm a Weigoulao mebbe😅
The temporal nature of the writing on Star Trek has always produced peculiar inconsistencies for something supposedly showing an enlightened distant future. And the apparently blasé way VOY approached this (Mr "Highwater", anybody?) could strike as uncomfortable even at the time.
That's what I liked about parts of season 2. We started to see that Voyager couldn't rely on having the name of the Federation to back them up, and were judged on their actions or propaganda spread by the people they've pissed off. A refreshing change.
I remember 1 line from this episode. The Doctor: "Doesn't it occur to anyone that the history of your plannet is a series of implausible parables? About years and years of war, between a side of ruthless, merciless, savages, and a side of noble, self-sacrificing angels? How would that even work?"
As far as the Doctors backup is concerned, StarTrek generally is pretty silly about copying vs moving data but also there was issues due to huge storage requirements and needing a very advanced custom processing unit. Especially given instances of the doctor being stolen or otherwise being away such as 'Message in a Bottle' I could fully believe that B'Elanna could have made use of the hardware from the diagnostic system, equipment they have managed to trade for and her own work over a few weeks to figure out how to build at least 1 backup unit. If Voyager was a bit more planned out and they had slipped that in a few episodes earlier there would have been no issue.
One of VOY’s best episodes. I love the slight exaggeration of the Warship Voyager crew. No doubt that’s exactly how a lot of species across the Delta Quadrant remember Voyager. It is annoying that the Doctor suddenly has a backup module, when it’s been important that he doesn’t several times. Fun fact: the museum set was reused as the Son’a face stretching room in Insurrection.
A little reading after the script was done told me that set was fooking expensive. I suspect arguing for its use in other projects was how they managed to swing it.
I volunteer as tribute to review all the fan fic based on Domme Janeway. Computer, lock doors, safeties off, and ensure all logs are being erased. ❤❤❤❤
@@Unlimited_Lives Yeh you’d think it’d be the other way around, the set being built on Insurrection’s movie level budget and then the relatively tightly budgeted TV shows would get to use it after, but I guess not!
My only real problem with this episode is seven hundred years feels like overkill. I think a hundred and fifty or two hundred years would have been just as much time for history to be this distorted, and make more sense.
Someone once pointed out that if Doc made it home, he'd be at about the same time as Discovery Season 3 and 4. I'm not sure if it lines up but I wonder how he'd react to the state of things in that time.
Discovery is a little later I think. 700 years after Voyager would make it about 3070, and Discovery S3+ was... **googles** about 100 years after that. But it does mean the reactivation of the Doctor is every so slightly after **DISCOVERY SPOILERS(ish)** The Burn, meaning his journey home should have been significantly quieter for a fair portion of it.
I think that making the tatoo bigger was partially done to emphasize that the species only paid attention to one aspect of chakotay. That would of course be more poignantly driven if they straight up had a different actor play chakotay and used his regular tatoo. But then how would they get the whole main cast into the episode.
doesn't it makes sense for a revisionist history trying to make voyager look bad to have these "tribe tattoo bad" hot takes? it shows the writers of the simulation making the mistake that you find upsetting. maybe if the doc had pointed out the tattoo bs it would have been better but i think the point was stronger for including that bad trope. not in the show but the show within the show.
Even if we consider the ignorance to be on the part of the fictional creators (which I don't subscribe to as there's no reason for them to consider tattoos negatvely or associate short hair with evil), that doesn't change the fact that a human ultimately made this. As you say, had those things been called out within the show I'd be more inclined to consider it a deliberate attempt to highlight ignorace. But they weren't. I doubt they were even considered, and we should ask why that was the case.
I have to admit, I only saw the larger tatoo and shorter hair as signs that things were different. I spoke to several friends and literally nobody else I spoke to saw them as anything other than signalling difference from the way things were supposed to be. I still think that's all they were meant to represent.
I love this episode definitely one of my favourites. I had not really thought of the representation in terms of Chakotay tattoo or Janeyways hair I just thought it was just let’s do stereotypical evil including the black gloves, so the audience gets the message at first glance. And in writing this comment I think I’ve just proved to myself what a problem stereotypes are. One of the many things I do love about this episode though is it’s not your standard mirror universe fare they took the same theme but went with a different approach and one still represents a modern problem that victors write the history books and that doesn’t always give a true representation of what really happened.
And that whole stereotype business is the nub of it. I don't think it was a deliberate inclusion, but it should be addressed. Such a shame as, other than that, yes this is an excellent episode. Those two choices just take the shine off it.
I'm always fascinated by alien viewpoints of Starfleet & the Federation. I really appreciate your commentary. I too had issues with the tattoo and hair; even as a kid.
His tattoo being bigger makes him appear scarier, just like the ss versions of the voyager uniforms. It seems very much in keeping to do it that way if you're trying to make voyager the bad guys. I feel like you're fishing too hard for something to be offended by.
@@Unlimited_LivesBecause tattoos used to be less common, and people believed that anyone with a tattoo must have a higher tolerance for pain, and so be more dangerous in a fight? Because the art of tattooing had died out nearly everywhere and was rediscovered by sailors. For a while, having a tattoo, meant that you must be a sailor. Why are sailors scary? Because some of them are foreign? Their reputation for brawling? Because they are big and muscular? Because they are letting off steam on shore-leave and they won't be hanging around to deal with the consequences? The 2nd category of people to get tattoos, got them from sailors, after meeting up with sailors in the dockside area. These people were women, and so not relevant to a discussion of why tattooed men are scary. The third category of people to get tattoos, were gangsters. So, maybe it's because of that?
All of which were outdated by the point this script was written, and don't address the stigma still attached to tribal markings in general. If we were talking about a tattoo on his bicep that said "I luv mum", then an increase in size might not carry the same connotations, but this is specifically a marking indicative of heritage. It carries that link, and so does whatever you associate it with.
Never saw the hair as any coding except that shorter hair is better for military and combat. Won't get in the way in a fight, easier to clean. So more militant society, more militant dress and grooming. Might just be me.
I'd buy that if we didn't see other crew with longer hair. Neelix's is still halfway down his back, and a female security guard has hers tied back. Ultimately, it's a known trope and its inclusion was avoidable.
i like your reviews, they are very entertaining, thank you for your work. i have to admit, i find it very strange to have an issue with the episode because of the tattoo and the short hair. when i was watching this episode for the first time as a kid, there was NO thought whatsoever that the tattoo is a bad choice because chakotay is portraied as a bad guy, neither the short hair i saw as a "masculinisation". especially from a production stand point i see the practicallity of all this: just make his tattoo big, so audience instantly realize that something is WAAAY of. at the same time, this is very convincing for us as the audience to realize that because of hearsay, the picture of chatokay got twisted more and more and all of a sudden half his face is tattooed. as for janeway, since she has longer hair in the series, "just put a short hair wig on her and give her black gloves, next..." -- you can take anything they did and put a "this is x-ist" card on it. i find it that you keep this away from a top placement because of unjustified reasons. i liked the episode totally and never ever would've expected the tattoo or the hair to be an issue, this was very surprising... well, what ever, keep up the good work, I like you vids :)
Already addressed in the video. They're a problem because they play into tropes. I've given ways the tattoo could have identified that this was not our Chakotay without making it the focus. The same could have been done with Janeway. Want her different? Give her long hair. Change the colour. Choosing aspects with a history of being symbolic carries baggage. Those choices may not have been deliberate, but they were indicative of a bias even unconsciously.
Tattoo size increase was the method by which the episode identified this Chakotay as different to the one we know. It was the focus. Stigma already exists around tribal markings, so making that a more obvious feature of a character you're portraying as worse than standard implies a connection, deliberately or not.
eu.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2022/02/23/face-tattoos-have-been-stigmatized-some-theyre-sacred/6814537001/ Incidentally, the work stigma literally means tattoo or marking.
Because Janeway is adamant about preventing the spread of Voyager’s technology… except phasers, tricorders, PADDs and photon torpedoes of course. Go outside the museum and I bet Quarren has a Voyager shuttle in the car park…
Loved this almost mirror universe episode. It was a great way for the writers to not have to try to do a mirror voyager episode where they may or may not even be in the delta quadrant.
Or they figure a way to make it happen, and then decide against making further backups due to the danger of leaving Federation tech/data scattered all over the shop as happened here. There are ways to think around it, which is why I didn't judge it too harshly.
Assuming the Doc is so different from normal holograms that he can't just be copy-paste'd, maybe there was some moral issue with it? By this stage people consider the Doc to be a person, more or less. Maybe duplicating him would be a bit rude, like keeping a copy of everyone's pattern in the transporter so they can clone a new crewmember each time they die.
We handwave an explanation, to let them have tension, but doesn't that make them less relatable? Who wouldn't want a clone and back-ups? Riker (TNG) hated it when the trandsporter duplicated him. The less experienced Riker could never prove exceptional enough to get promoted. But what if you just want to hang out in the background, stargazing? There's still a downside to letting yourself be cloned. It would make you more expendable: "Don't worry Ensign, you'll be fine. Look over there. See? There you are, sitting on the couch, perfectly safe. Now stop whining and crawl into that nest of acid-worms, to find me the queen." The crew are pretty expendable, anyway, but not infinitely expendable.
@@Mecharnie_Dobbs I wouldn't want a clone. If I die, having someone else who looks and act exactly like me won't help; I personally will still be dead. That would be like having a twin sibling, and someone just says, "Eh, we can kill Bob. We have a spare."
One thing that occurs to me about this episode is that surely by this point in time the Federation would have met these people and clarified the situation anyway.
Based on the fact that Captain Braxton was able to just hope over to the Delta Quadrant on a whim a century before, it seems likely. Unless Voyager carried home a message to never bother them, then they'd honour it I guess.
Trade from Voyager before the War. A little light theft after the war broke out. Probably some collecting from other species in the area over the years who had encounters with Voyager as well? Damn. I didn't even manage to include a joke in this comment.
So 700 years into the future, the Federation was only known to this species in the Delta Quadrant by one visit from Voyager? It would only take them 70 years to cross the galaxy with the technology available in Voyager’s time. I’d at least expect Star Fleet outposts in the Delta Quadrant by then.
I think this episode was the closes we got to Mirror Universe with the Terran Empire. It would have been great to see the Voyagers Terran Empire. Yet again, Janeway could have used the device to get home instead of destroying it. Though I imagine the plot would have been an opportunity to expand the Terran Empire into the Delta Quadrant. My personal theory about the mirror universe (it's not called a parallel universe), is that each one we see is a different one. Each having a different focal point where both universes meet. Then the past is then created in the mirrored universe to make sense of the universe. Because in the mirror universe the history and offspring should be difference based on everyone decisions. And those effects should ripple across their timeline. The events and people will be the most similar at the focal point. For it to be a true mirror universe, there has to be a focal point at one point of time. We seen characters dies in mirror universe that are live in the main universe. So as time passes from the focal point more noise will added until you are not able to reconized it as a true mirror universe. Though, it's my personal theory. But again, mirror universe may not be the best term. Since all a mirror does is reflect back to your image. So maybe, the mirror universe shows what is at the core of federation. The true reflection of what the federation is. That a social utopia is really an empire in disguise, masking it's true form. But I'm still thinking that theory out.
"Dom Janeway" 🤣 I agree with you about the unconscious bias in this episode. Did the people who designed the make-up for the aliens in this episode get their inspiration from the (terrible) 1980s "Beauty and the Beast" TV series?
Thank you. I knew I'd get a bit of pushback on this as I did with that Q episode that a handful of people objected to. It's all "enGagEmeNT" I suppose, but it's tiring trying to sort the people just not seeing it from those arguing in bad faith. And how DARE you! That was Ron Perlman you're mocking! Dammit, now I have to try and find a few episodes to remind me.
I understand the difference, but I've used Dom rather than Domme in the captions because I don't think that form of linguistic othering will have survived into the 24th Century, though I've no doubt there are examples in the shows. I have no issue with those who prefer to use it for themselves, but such things are already an anachronism now in the eyes of many. The actor/actress debate currently ongoing is an indicator of future direction I think.
I feel you were a little heavy handed in your criticism. The over-embellishment of Chakotay's tribal tattoo and Janeway's hair can be a fair representation of how little the people who made the recreation understood about their subject matter. To read more into it suggests a personal bias more than anything else. Queer coding Janeway? Being as I am gay and have been for quite some time (47 years and counting), I never saw it like that no matter how many times I've seen this episode. To me, it shows a civilization who misunderstood a key moment in their own history and used their own prejudices to paint Voyager and her crew as villains with a light-year wide brush. Their own ignorance prompted them to invert personalities and use a ship passing by their system as the fall guy to cover for their own prejudices.
I was very ready to hate this episode when I thought it was doing some Mirror Universe Shenanigans (the single worst running plot point in every trek show, only second to Section 31), but it turned it around with how it was revealed.
Personally I too adore this episode, but on all parades a little rain must fall. So, to add to the nitpicks in the episode, the instructor on hostage situations for Starfleet tactical needs to be talked to, cause no one on that security team knows the first thing about dealing with them. Getting them out of Engineering so they can't touch the warp core, fine I get that. The problem becomes egregious in their approach in the mess hall. Yes, you cover the exits, yes you clear noninvolved people away, but bungling in dick first with no cover, and in a fashion seemingly designed to unnerve your targets is just aggressively a bad idea. You have to try to establish trust with the hostage takers, work to calm them, give them an expectation of survival, or they may just kill the hostages out of spite and go down fighting. If you must act, you press, you keep them shooting at you so they cannot think about the hostages. There were like a thousand ways to handle that situation within five seconds.
Not exactly. TH-cam decided that I'd be doing captions the hard way, so we had that to deal with. Now I'm handling the (minor and entirely expected) pushback from the summary. Should've just put the expected arguments in a pinned comment to save myself the time.
Blast Hardcheese has arrived! I'm only disappointed that he didn't have a bigger part in the episode. Other than that, exceptional episode, particularly the deserved praise and critique.
I really fucking love this episode, I remember watching it when it aired for the first time and was gutted Robert Picardo left the show but at least he went out on a high....so I was extremely confused to see him in the very next episode. I'd missed the back up aspect of the character in this but that in itself gave me more questions, Were we seeing the actual Doctor in the past scenes that the back up Doctor got memories for, or was it the back up Doctor? Even though it's labelled as a back up file, was this the original Doctor and every appearance since is a back up version? How many times have we seen the back up version since first mentioned in Message a bottle? How many back up versions are there? Also...Holy shit, I'd never seen the tribal aspect and queer coding of the Warship Voyager Chakotay and Janeway until you mentioned it and I'm disappointed I didn't see it before now because you're spot on. To which I can only say FUCK YOU RICK BERMAN!!
If we ever do merch, I think FUCK YOU RICK BERMAN would make a great tee. What we're seeing is a backup of the Doctor. Said backup is mentioned not at all prior to this episode to my memory. In fact, we're told it's not possible for multiple Science Reasons (though I suspect a central reason was to provide a potential sense of peril when he's in the mobile emitter). We can explain it away by saying it's traded tech (which might work, as that module didn't look very Federation to me). Perhaps some other species has a particularly good version of Zip drives or something.
@@Unlimited_Lives In Message in a bottle Tom wants Harry to make a new Doctor as Tom doesn't want to be stuck in Sickbay if the Doctor doesn't make it back. It goes about as well as you expect and it does the Hologram equivalent of the Blue Screen of Death and then it's never mentioned again. Also this episode is set 1400 years into the future, the furthest out in the future for any Star Trek episode. If there is a T-shirt I'd want it to say "Tom Paris is a dick" on the front and "But again, I digress" on the back 😂
I wonder how often that happend in what we see in our history books....nothing in our closer past of course *performs duck & cover* And now imagine how the future may look at stuff...like in a country in the middle of Europe with a thing for beer & world wars?
I left a comment an episode or two ago, saying that we are leading to the pen ultimate best episode. and this was it on sooooo many levels. Even though you have your reservations about the race insinuations in it, it is by far one of the best episodes the show had for two reasons, first the doc shows he is wanting to exonerate his friends but in the end chooses to forget that notion i ordet to save this civilization from tearing them selves to shreds , knowing that his dead fiends, are innocent he is content to go into oblivion with that knowledge and the second reason is the tear jerker, even after 700 years and knowing his friends were long gone, he decided to go onto the journey his friends continued on, to home. I wished after the series ended their could have been a compendium episode showing this docs voyage....heading homeward....700 years later....damn it. Im crying.
Given the timing of the back up doctor being activated and then later leaving for Earth, and comparing it to the timeline of DISCO season 3 and 4, the backup doc should be arriving in the Alpha quad around the current time of Discovery...
@@magical_catgirl **possibly** That works on the assumption that the vehicle he's given runs at roughly the same average speed of Voyager, giving it the same rough journey time. We also aren't definitively told how long he stayed before departing, only that it was "many years" (and at least 6 years, as that's when the guide carked it). It's a good estimate to start with certainly, but there are a lot of variables too (burn, mushrom drive, V8 space folding). That said, I'd have welcomed the crossover.
You are right about the potential message of Chakotay's larger tattoo, but this may go down to half-assed research. Specifically, crossing the made-up and unexplained tattoo traditions of the made-up loosely based on Mayans and the Hopi tribe Chakotay is from with war paint. Presumably, the idea here is more war paint is more scary, and that the person making the historical hologram of Chakotay would be using a description not much more specific than "he had tattoos all over on side of his face." I'm trying to think of a way to depict Chakotay as scarier while relying on the kinds of details people hold onto in high stress situations, and I'm not getting very far. Of course, I'm just one person, between all of the writers, actors, and on set persons, they could probably have come up with something. The inherent problem is a problem, though I would be interested to hear the point of view of Native Americans at the time more than I am to hear your criticism after 20 years of... progress? that this episode cannot partake in. Or the Native Americans of now, who are often bothered by different things than what the internet would have you believe. You might find that Chakotay having a tattoo A) on his face or b) at all is of more concern to them than whether or not they make it bigger to make him scarier. I suspect given all of the other problems with his mishmash heritage, Chakotay's tattoo would be their least grievance.
I've never thought negatively about indigenous people, nor gay people since watching this episode. Love your videos mate, but I really do think you're looking too much into the design changes of this episode.
@@Unlimited_Lives Rain cleanses the air... Sci fi cleanses the mind. Voyager does its best to break away the clouds for both. It may not be perfect, but at the very least, it is 'Trek'.
@@fatwombat7936 We're getting away from the main pont, but I agree with your sentiment so let's call that a compromise. I've no desire to see the show villified, only to not gloss over its imperfections.
It suits you Spacedog! While this episode had its problems, the core idea was really interesting. The acting was really good and I liked the world building. I would have liked to have seen more like this, the impact of Voyager's journey and the myths that grow up around it. Yes I was uncomfortable at times. You could tell the creators had some odd ideas but as far as I can tell, they were prevalent in the executives. Chakotay's tattoo didn't make much sense, Why would it be a Maori style one? Why emphasise that? If his tattoo was so significant to the myth, perhaps we should have seen it on others. Janeway's short haircut etc, mm that is not military, she should either have had shorter hair or her own length. The 'naughty / domme / lesbian' thing was a cliche to show a character was evil / deranged / possessed even at the time, some writers used it as a shortcut instead of character development. Strangely enough, it was never done for male characters. Is that acceptable? No but it happened.
Thank you so much for pointing out the issues with the episode. I’ve always loved this one and didn’t quite know why I felt uneasy about some of the evil variant portrayal, but I did. You nailed it as usual.
IVe been watching these in a random order, just whatever YT said, and I hit a run with space dog at the end, then nothing for a few, I was starting to miss Space dog, and now hes back. Woo!
Janeway's hair is not queer coding. Sorry. They just wouldn't have been going down that avenue that subtly when this was made. The coding here is combat ready. Long hair is considered (by men) a liability in hand-to-hand combat. My personal experience is that while having it grabbed and used as a handle does redirect my head, it doesn't hurt, and I will just find a new angle to counterattack you from. But people with shorter hair (men again) haven't been having their hair pulled since they were children and they do find someone getting a fist full of their much shorter hair shockingly painful. Janeway's hair in this season is long enough to easily get a grip on and short enough for that to be fairly problematic, not to mention in her eyes. It isn't wildly unreasonable that this species with hair on their heads would have similar hair-combat experience, so taking the description of her as "short haired" which for a woman it is and having that exaggerated by the maker of the hologram to be combat practical is not unreasonable. And no, I would not expect female writers to have a different perspective on this combat readiness wisdom, though I suppose they could. Would you mind checking your own stereotypes that kickass women with short hair have to be queer? I know quite a lot of cops who would happily rearrange that for you. It doesn't matter that it's a trope, because subverting the trope is always an option. I shaved my head for a swim meet, nothing at all to do with my sexuality, though the way I was treated by people outside my social circle means I won't soon be doing it again. I'm really quite sick of being treated like I'm something I'm not or not the thing I am because I don't fit neatly into some particular box, but I like my long hair too, and that at least silences most people presumably through indecision.
Btw.. I most ask.. and please keep in mind that english is my second language. The tuvix episode u keep refering to in most of ur videos. I understand a tragic merging DNA accident happens that forced two crew members to become one life form, against their will. This lifeform gets to evolve a personality, but in the end we figure out how to get back the two crew members, by splitting the same DNA. Meaning on a molecular level, nothing has been lost. The two personalitites are simply split again. How is this murder? I understand the merged personality enjoyed being merged. But it becomes two lifeforms again. It isn't in the stricted sense death. For if the definition of death is based on a loss of personality... Then Odo and Curzon Dax being linked, then seperated again is a tragic death. Am I in the wrong here? How is Tuvix dead, when he lives on, as Tuvix and Neelix. Why isn't this treated as an opposite of split personality? And how can two lives mean less then one? They did not volunteer to beckme tuvix. The hate Janeway gets for this decision is facinating. Meanwhile Sisko get to do alot of shady stuff, and never gets called a murderer. It's interresting..
If you absorb a child back into its parents then, on a molecular level, nothing is lost. You still ate a fucking baby. The nub of your argument seems to be that Tuvix was created against the will of the donors. How then can a solution where Tuvix is destroyed against his will be moral? Tuvix was not two personalities. This is explicit in the episode. He's not two consciounesses sharing a body as Odo and Curzon were when Jadzia shared out her former trill hosts to meet them. In that, their movement and subsequent reintegration lost nothing. A more fitting comparison would be Dukat killing Jadzia. Do we consider that not murder because her experiences lived on in Ezri? Janeway's actions ended the life of an individual. It was done against his will. That is murder. And, as I've said to others before, when I get around to other shows they'll be judged to the same standards. Sisko is an accessory to murder. Picard may have destroyed a whole civilisation when he "rescued" Wesley. Archer.... probably did stuff too, but who remembers Enterprise?
@@Unlimited_Lives I most admit, I am watching Enterprise now. And I kinda like it. It really shows a bit how 9/11 changed Star Trek awswell. Their is a razzle there with morality, that maybe u will enjoy. More of a between today, and Star Trek show. But yeah, I suppose that is a way to see it. Perhaps it is murder. It reminded me of the classic trolley dillema. Where u can't stop the trolley, but u can change the track. One path will kill one, and the second path kills two. For me Janeway's decission becomes the trolley track that kills one. Is it murder not to doom two crewmates to what we have established is death. Is there a thing as ethical murder? Can we make a comparrison with abortion? If it saves the life of the host, isn't it a worthwhile goal to do. Even more so when it saves two persons. I can't shake the feeling that I would probably do the same this as janeway. That my pragmatism, and the "need of the many, out ways the need of the few" would lead me there. Knowing that it would be perceived by many as a murder, and inaction, while still killing two, would be considered sparing a life. Is so intriguing. Thank you for replying. Even when Tuvix wasn't a part of this episode, u took ur time. Thank you! :)
I still prefer Babylon 5's take on the idea a little better, but yeah, this was a pretty good episode (and it went into far more detail since it got an entire episode instead of only about one quarter of one).
i sort of see it the other way. bigotry will add defamable traits on top and these people have gone all out to show the crew as negativly as possible. they were racist, they clearly hated tribalism, women with short hair and black gloves
MST3K crossover, love it! I've been looking forward to your review of this great episode. "Tedron is deadron." had me laugh out loud. Considering how good the episode was (and is even more relevant today), is it possible that the problems you listed were intended as satirizing bigoted stereotypes? i.e. of course, these people are evil. Just look at Chakotay and his giant face tattoo and Janeway with her domineering attitude and presentation.
I understand what you're saying, but intent is secondary to impact. I'm not suggesting their inclusion here was a deliberate attempt to press an agenda. It's entirely possible such changes were unintentional and subconscious. But we should ask why those choices were acceptable when, for example, similar suggestions of stereotyping for Garret Wang or Tim Russ would never have got off the ground. What made Indigenous people and queer communities either fair game or less worthy of that consideration?
@@Unlimited_Lives Good point. You've got me wondering now what the original writer thought, was it subconsciously derogatory or intentionally satirical? I'll have to do some pedant worthy investigating.
I checked the Memory Alpha entry on this to see if there was any mention of intent, as I wanted to know for myself. Nothing there, and I didn't feel up to more at the time, so I'd be interested to hear anything you find.
@@Unlimited_Lives I know some people frown upon using ChatGPT, but I find it to be useful for harvesting information on a topic like this when I can't find specifics on my own. It had this to say when I asked about the stereotypical nature of how Chakotay and Janeway are portrayed in the episode: By presenting Chakotay as a stereotypical "brutal savage" and Janeway as an aggressive overbearing warlord, the episode satirizes the tendency to oversimplify and stereotype individuals or cultures in historical accounts. It highlights how these distorted representations can perpetuate misunderstandings and perpetuate conflict. The intent of the episode's writer, Bryan Fuller (EDIT: who is gay and out, and is also known for the brilliant Pushing Daisies and Hannibal), was to explore the concept of historical revisionism and challenge the audience's preconceived notions about the characters. Through this satire, Fuller aimed to emphasize the importance of critical thinking, questioning established narratives, and seeking multiple perspectives in understanding history. "Living Witness" offers a cautionary tale about the dangers of accepting historical accounts at face value and encourages viewers to consider the complexities and biases inherent in storytelling and interpretation. EDIT: Now of course the teleplay included two other writers, so they may have changed how Chakotay and Janeway were originally presented (in addition to the director, producer, and head writer who also have leeway to do that). That being said, I think it's probably safe to say that their portrayals and presentation were intentional satire by the original writer.
Hey Unlimited Lives, in this episode you describe Janeway's hair as closely cropped, but the length of her hair does not change, as we see in the next episode "Demon", thus her hair is merely differently styled.
I know some people think you're fishing, but I'm here to agree. Biases do not need to be 100% conscious in the mind of the writer to present themselves. Didn't they also make mirror universe Kira a lesbian on DS9?
I do disagree with your assessment of the “coding” issue. For the topic of Chakotay’s tattoo, I think it’s fitting that a people with a a negative impression of another group would hyperfocus on a trait and exaggerate it. As distasteful as it may be, it’s actually pretty accurate representation of how people would perceive these things. It’s accurate because it’s racist and it’s racist because it’s accurate. It just that it fails because of the root examples of the “representation” that Chakotay represents. As for Janeway’s hair, I think that’s a stretch. Cropped and tight hair has long been a staple of villains for much of the history of fiction. That she is a woman is beside the fact and I think the episode did a great job of NOT leaning into the “conniving fem fatal” or Janeway using her sex or sexuality as a plot point.
I really enjoyed the episode, I think its a good Doctor centric episode and I thought Chekotay enlarged tatoo was just a cartoon evil kind of thing. But I do have one problem: WHY THE FUCK DID STAR TREK DISCOVERY NOT USE THAT PLOT LINE LIKE GODAMN IT ITS A GOOD AND CANNONICLY POSSIBLE WAY TO RECONECT WITH OLDER STAR TREK AND ITS NOT LIKE ROBERT PICARDO GROWING OLD IS A PROBLEM WE ALL SAW Q ENTRENCE IN PICARD WITH THAT CGI THAT WAS A GOOD ENTRENCE, WORST GACE POSSIBLE YOU MAKE UP AN EXCUSE OR SOMETHING
I've considered this, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of making such regular gags about genocide. I was in two minds about the "Jenny who?" line in this one. You're right, but we'll keep it as murder.
I know this is an older video, but I have been binging these videos and I couldn't resist offering an alternative perspective on not-Chakotay's tattoos. It is not that they went more tribal, they went different tribal. Chakotay's tattoo is "traditional" design of his indigenous American tribe, worn in honor of his grandfather. Not-Chakotay's tattoos on the other hand are much more reminiscent of Tā moko or other traditional Polynesian face tattoo. Granted, it is the sort of "Polynesian" design I would expect out of an American from the 90's who had seen them in a book once, but it is still more effort than usually went into Chakotay's character design. The views on Tā moko have become more nuanced over the years, but from what I remember of the 90's the view was the purpose of the designs was as a way to make the wearer more intimidating. Switching the "spiritual" design for the "intimidating" one from the wrong culture would fit the theme of that particular simulation producing "evil" versions of the characters that got fundamental facts wrong. It is also worth remembering that the Maori were among the very few cultures that were absorbed into the British Empire through treaty, rather than outright conquest. Considering his history with the Maquis and how they joined the crew of Voyager in a subordinate role, I can't help but wonder if this was a deliberate choice of cultural shift from the writers. I suppose you are not the only one to overthink things. I will admit that I know nothing of Robert Beltran's heritage, but casting him as someone with partial Polynesian heritage would be plausible.
Here to complain that I'm wrong? I've saved you the effort with this handy FAQ,
IT'S JUST A TATTOO
It's a tribal tatoo. It's canonically described as such multiple times. The show has associated it with his Indigenous identity.
THE HAIR WAS SHORT FOR MILITARY REASONS
Others had long hair.
THAT DOESN'T MEEN IT'S A QUEER THING
This is literally a trope.
BUT HER HAIR WAS SHORT BEFORE
Google the tropes Power Hair and Boyish Short Hair to understand the difference.
BUT THE SIMULATION WAS CREATED BY [FICTIONAL SPECIES X]
They're human biases that make no sense outside of those contexts. Ultimately, they were all written by humans. If a puppet punches you, you don't blame the puppet.
THIS ALL SOUNDS LIKE PEOPLE HAVING TO CONSIDER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR ACTIONS, AND THAT SCARES ME SO I'D RATHER JUST CARRY ON THINKING IT'S FINE
Thank you for being honest.
Ultimately if you accentuate an aspect of a character when you make them evil, you're linking those two values. It might not be conscious, it might not be intended, but that's irrelevant. It's what you're doing.
Our old friend Hays knew this, which is why we had decades of queer people being represented only as deviant or evil. You will forgive me if I have no patience for its continuation, deliberate or otherwise, for any minority.
Despite having numerous friends in those communities, i have enough privilege to have completely have missed the villian-coding. Thank you for pointing that out because i feel like somewhat of a piece of shit for it and i don't want to be a piece of shit, so you've given me a chance to act my values.
Interresting.. I wonder if it is a deliberate choice by the writers, or the costume department. I remember the makup and costume department on tng got handed a a lot of liberty in their interpretations of the script. Personally I always thought they where going more the classic nazi route. Black Leather, short haircuts, scars, evil smirks, facist viewpoints, tattoes to the face, exaggerated to become more imposive and scary. Didn't really connect it to an anti queer message. Wonder how u feel about the ds9 mirror episodes. I suppose I will have to wait a long while for those. :)
@@CamillaMix95 you're correct, whether that intend to or not, the writers are promoting the notions that tribal identities or sexual preferences should be scary.
Did you digress?
I don't get this, what happened here?
I watched this episode back in the day and I don't know where does this faq fit.
🤔 Tattoo, hairstyle, queer,
Humans from your side of the world care about these little assumptions?
I don't understand why it's so important to classify and name everything for vous, mes Amis
And I always that in Hollywood my ancestors were represented like evil people. 🤔
And now what about tong xi lié
Even if it's not the spelling that would sound correctly, honestly. English is easy to use because few words and verbs can be sustantivised or adjectivised, but pronunciation...
And worse when the language is Mandarin or sp, I'm a Weigoulao mebbe😅
The temporal nature of the writing on Star Trek has always produced peculiar inconsistencies for something supposedly showing an enlightened distant future. And the apparently blasé way VOY approached this (Mr "Highwater", anybody?) could strike as uncomfortable even at the time.
I loved this episode, because it is genuinly how some species who met Voyager feel about the ship and her crew.
That's what I liked about parts of season 2. We started to see that Voyager couldn't rely on having the name of the Federation to back them up, and were judged on their actions or propaganda spread by the people they've pissed off. A refreshing change.
@@Unlimited_Lives very true
@@Unlimited_Lives I fancy dark Janeway portrayal 🥰
How you can tell this is an alternative reality and not 'our' Voyager? Harry finally got a promotion!
Harsh but fair.
A smirking Tuvok is a very unsettling image. 😨😨😨
Which is why Picard season three reused it.
The laughing Vulcan and his Dog?
I presume the *SPOILERS FOR PICARD*
Changeling version of Tuvok.
When I saw this comment I thought: "Naahhh can't be that Bad"
When I saw the smirking Tuvok I thought: "Oh dear IT IS that Bad"
I remember 1 line from this episode. The Doctor: "Doesn't it occur to anyone that the history of your plannet is a series of implausible parables? About years and years of war, between a side of ruthless, merciless, savages, and a side of noble, self-sacrificing angels? How would that even work?"
A rather Orwellian statement.
Incidently this Version only works as long as no one has any outside record of Voyager to compare with.
As far as the Doctors backup is concerned, StarTrek generally is pretty silly about copying vs moving data but also there was issues due to huge storage requirements and needing a very advanced custom processing unit.
Especially given instances of the doctor being stolen or otherwise being away such as 'Message in a Bottle' I could fully believe that B'Elanna could have made use of the hardware from the diagnostic system, equipment they have managed to trade for and her own work over a few weeks to figure out how to build at least 1 backup unit.
If Voyager was a bit more planned out and they had slipped that in a few episodes earlier there would have been no issue.
One of VOY’s best episodes. I love the slight exaggeration of the Warship Voyager crew. No doubt that’s exactly how a lot of species across the Delta Quadrant remember Voyager.
It is annoying that the Doctor suddenly has a backup module, when it’s been important that he doesn’t several times.
Fun fact: the museum set was reused as the Son’a face stretching room in Insurrection.
I thought it looked awfully familiar, but couldn't pin down why.
A little reading after the script was done told me that set was fooking expensive. I suspect arguing for its use in other projects was how they managed to swing it.
I volunteer as tribute to review all the fan fic based on Domme Janeway.
Computer, lock doors, safeties off, and ensure all logs are being erased.
❤❤❤❤
@@Unlimited_Lives Yeh you’d think it’d be the other way around, the set being built on Insurrection’s movie level budget and then the relatively tightly budgeted TV shows would get to use it after, but I guess not!
My only real problem with this episode is seven hundred years feels like overkill. I think a hundred and fifty or two hundred years would have been just as much time for history to be this distorted, and make more sense.
One thing about this episode still niggles me, we know Voyager got home with the doctor.
This Doctor is a back-up though, I don’t see the issue.
Someone once pointed out that if Doc made it home, he'd be at about the same time as Discovery Season 3 and 4. I'm not sure if it lines up but I wonder how he'd react to the state of things in that time.
Discovery is a little later I think. 700 years after Voyager would make it about 3070, and Discovery S3+ was... **googles** about 100 years after that. But it does mean the reactivation of the Doctor is every so slightly after **DISCOVERY SPOILERS(ish)**
The Burn, meaning his journey home should have been significantly quieter for a fair portion of it.
@@Unlimited_Lives Interesting. Thank you for responding and for the information.
Look around say "Bugger this for a game of soldiers" and turns around.
If I recall correctly this episode was directed by Tim Russ (Tuvok) and coincidentally today is his birthday.
This was the only episode were we see the real Captain Janeway
Excellent review as always 💚🌹💚 I love space dogs new look 😁👍
Thank you! The artwork is by @anebulouspurpose on instagram, and I'm rather partial to it.
I think that making the tatoo bigger was partially done to emphasize that the species only paid attention to one aspect of chakotay. That would of course be more poignantly driven if they straight up had a different actor play chakotay and used his regular tatoo. But then how would they get the whole main cast into the episode.
doesn't it makes sense for a revisionist history trying to make voyager look bad to have these "tribe tattoo bad" hot takes? it shows the writers of the simulation making the mistake that you find upsetting.
maybe if the doc had pointed out the tattoo bs it would have been better but i think the point was stronger for including that bad trope. not in the show but the show within the show.
Even if we consider the ignorance to be on the part of the fictional creators (which I don't subscribe to as there's no reason for them to consider tattoos negatvely or associate short hair with evil), that doesn't change the fact that a human ultimately made this. As you say, had those things been called out within the show I'd be more inclined to consider it a deliberate attempt to highlight ignorace. But they weren't. I doubt they were even considered, and we should ask why that was the case.
I have to admit, I only saw the larger tatoo and shorter hair as signs that things were different. I spoke to several friends and literally nobody else I spoke to saw them as anything other than signalling difference from the way things were supposed to be. I still think that's all they were meant to represent.
I love this episode definitely one of my favourites. I had not really thought of the representation in terms of Chakotay tattoo or Janeyways hair I just thought it was just let’s do stereotypical evil including the black gloves, so the audience gets the message at first glance. And in writing this comment I think I’ve just proved to myself what a problem stereotypes are. One of the many things I do love about this episode though is it’s not your standard mirror universe fare they took the same theme but went with a different approach and one still represents a modern problem that victors write the history books and that doesn’t always give a true representation of what really happened.
And that whole stereotype business is the nub of it. I don't think it was a deliberate inclusion, but it should be addressed.
Such a shame as, other than that, yes this is an excellent episode. Those two choices just take the shine off it.
This is legit my favourite channel from now on
Welcome aboard! TH-cam seems to be kicking more people my way, so I must have done something to please the Algorithm (blessed be Its codebase).
Of course the Museum has holo emitters.
It's the future, of the future.
I'm always fascinated by alien viewpoints of Starfleet & the Federation.
I really appreciate your commentary. I too had issues with the tattoo and hair; even as a kid.
His tattoo being bigger makes him appear scarier, just like the ss versions of the voyager uniforms. It seems very much in keeping to do it that way if you're trying to make voyager the bad guys. I feel like you're fishing too hard for something to be offended by.
Why is a tattoo scary?
@@Unlimited_LivesBecause tattoos used to be less common, and people believed that anyone with a tattoo must have a higher tolerance for pain, and so be more dangerous in a fight?
Because the art of tattooing had died out nearly everywhere and was rediscovered by sailors. For a while, having a tattoo, meant that you must be a sailor.
Why are sailors scary? Because some of them are foreign? Their reputation for brawling? Because they are big and muscular? Because they are letting off steam on shore-leave and they won't be hanging around to deal with the consequences?
The 2nd category of people to get tattoos, got them from sailors, after meeting up with sailors in the dockside area. These people were women, and so not relevant to a discussion of why tattooed men are scary.
The third category of people to get tattoos, were gangsters. So, maybe it's because of that?
All of which were outdated by the point this script was written, and don't address the stigma still attached to tribal markings in general. If we were talking about a tattoo on his bicep that said "I luv mum", then an increase in size might not carry the same connotations, but this is specifically a marking indicative of heritage. It carries that link, and so does whatever you associate it with.
been looking forward to this one, LIVING WITNESS is my favorite episode of the series
"oh shit, please don't kill tons of civilians...."
"Hard cheese, Hardcheese!" lol
Never saw the hair as any coding except that shorter hair is better for military and combat. Won't get in the way in a fight, easier to clean. So more militant society, more militant dress and grooming.
Might just be me.
I'd buy that if we didn't see other crew with longer hair. Neelix's is still halfway down his back, and a female security guard has hers tied back.
Ultimately, it's a known trope and its inclusion was avoidable.
i like your reviews, they are very entertaining, thank you for your work. i have to admit, i find it very strange to have an issue with the episode because of the tattoo and the short hair. when i was watching this episode for the first time as a kid, there was NO thought whatsoever that the tattoo is a bad choice because chakotay is portraied as a bad guy, neither the short hair i saw as a "masculinisation". especially from a production stand point i see the practicallity of all this: just make his tattoo big, so audience instantly realize that something is WAAAY of. at the same time, this is very convincing for us as the audience to realize that because of hearsay, the picture of chatokay got twisted more and more and all of a sudden half his face is tattooed. as for janeway, since she has longer hair in the series, "just put a short hair wig on her and give her black gloves, next..." -- you can take anything they did and put a "this is x-ist" card on it. i find it that you keep this away from a top placement because of unjustified reasons. i liked the episode totally and never ever would've expected the tattoo or the hair to be an issue, this was very surprising... well, what ever, keep up the good work, I like you vids :)
Already addressed in the video. They're a problem because they play into tropes. I've given ways the tattoo could have identified that this was not our Chakotay without making it the focus. The same could have been done with Janeway. Want her different? Give her long hair. Change the colour. Choosing aspects with a history of being symbolic carries baggage. Those choices may not have been deliberate, but they were indicative of a bias even unconsciously.
@@Unlimited_Lives But what do you mean by "making it the focus" for the tattoo for example?
Tattoo size increase was the method by which the episode identified this Chakotay as different to the one we know. It was the focus.
Stigma already exists around tribal markings, so making that a more obvious feature of a character you're portraying as worse than standard implies a connection, deliberately or not.
@@Unlimited_Lives Stigma of tribal markings? That one I understand even less. What Stigma?
eu.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2022/02/23/face-tattoos-have-been-stigmatized-some-theyre-sacred/6814537001/
Incidentally, the work stigma literally means tattoo or marking.
Today's thought experiment: Give me your reasons for why so many bits from Voyager were on the planet.
Merchandising! Traversing the galaxy ain't cheap you know.
ah yes the one time Kim is promoted to Lieutentant he is evil - theres a lesson here methinks ^^
Because Janeway is adamant about preventing the spread of Voyager’s technology… except phasers, tricorders, PADDs and photon torpedoes of course. Go outside the museum and I bet Quarren has a Voyager shuttle in the car park…
They had to drop the extra weight to go faster .
Yellow isn't the only thing Voyager poops.
Loved this almost mirror universe episode. It was a great way for the writers to not have to try to do a mirror voyager episode where they may or may not even be in the delta quadrant.
I loved it when the Vaskan bloke did that classic “I’m not a racist but…” by taking care to point out that he has Kyrian friends.
This is like a mirror universe episode done right. Love it
Idk I liked the DS9 mirror universe stuff as getting to see the humans so _alien_ in behavior just gets me the right way.
i love the feeling of groggily pulling up youtube, seeing the thumbnail and episode title, and giddily thinking, 'o this is gonna be good!'
I'm glad to have made your day a little better.
So, at some point, Voyager trades for tech to make a back-up drive for The Doctor, and at some later point, they lose it.
Or they figure a way to make it happen, and then decide against making further backups due to the danger of leaving Federation tech/data scattered all over the shop as happened here. There are ways to think around it, which is why I didn't judge it too harshly.
Assuming the Doc is so different from normal holograms that he can't just be copy-paste'd, maybe there was some moral issue with it? By this stage people consider the Doc to be a person, more or less. Maybe duplicating him would be a bit rude, like keeping a copy of everyone's pattern in the transporter so they can clone a new crewmember each time they die.
A moral reason for it! I like this.
We handwave an explanation, to let them have tension, but doesn't that make them less relatable? Who wouldn't want a clone and back-ups?
Riker (TNG) hated it when the trandsporter duplicated him. The less experienced Riker could never prove exceptional enough to get promoted.
But what if you just want to hang out in the background, stargazing? There's still a downside to letting yourself be cloned. It would make you more expendable:
"Don't worry Ensign, you'll be fine. Look over there. See? There you are, sitting on the couch, perfectly safe.
Now stop whining and crawl into that nest of acid-worms, to find me the queen."
The crew are pretty expendable, anyway, but not infinitely expendable.
@@Mecharnie_Dobbs I wouldn't want a clone. If I die, having someone else who looks and act exactly like me won't help; I personally will still be dead. That would be like having a twin sibling, and someone just says, "Eh, we can kill Bob. We have a spare."
A parable about narratives and the malleability of history, and one of my favourite episodes in the franchise. Quintessential Star Trek.
What I don't understand is if voyager is evil, then why didn't they just use the caretaker array instead of destroying it?
Fair point, but could be argued away by corrupted backstory data. Maybe these guys think the caretaker destroyed it to keep it from Janeway.
One thing that occurs to me about this episode is that surely by this point in time the Federation would have met these people and clarified the situation anyway.
Based on the fact that Captain Braxton was able to just hope over to the Delta Quadrant on a whim a century before, it seems likely. Unless Voyager carried home a message to never bother them, then they'd honour it I guess.
"We're peaceful, if you don't believe us, we'll nuke the site from orbit"
I love this series
You're welcome!
@9:04 If you’re referring to “Prime Factors” that device on the table isn’t the device that folded space acquired from the Sikarians
I'm referring to s4e20: Vis a Vis, the space folding coaxial warp drive on Crewmand McCrewface's ship. Well, the one they probably nicked.
Trade from Voyager before the War. A little light theft after the war broke out. Probably some collecting from other species in the area over the years who had encounters with Voyager as well? Damn. I didn't even manage to include a joke in this comment.
The ending of this ep reminds me of the ending of Handmaid's Tale.
This is a good episode. I recently re-watched it myself.
This is one of my favorite ep of the season. Its just so fun and star trek.
So 700 years into the future, the Federation was only known to this species in the Delta Quadrant by one visit from Voyager? It would only take them 70 years to cross the galaxy with the technology available in Voyager’s time. I’d at least expect Star Fleet outposts in the Delta Quadrant by then.
9:04 this was a great catch! Also, I'm glad you addressed the bigotry in the tropes.
I believe the glove wearing villain dates back to Fritz Langs M (where it actualy makes sense)
Love this episode, and love the decision not to tie the variant history into any of the pre-existing ways to make characters evil in trek.
No beards you mean? Yes, an excellent episode even with my reservations.
KANE LIVES IN DEATH!
700 years after the Voyager incident Starfleet would have already Assimilated.... I mean, welcomed them into the Federation.
I think this episode was the closes we got to Mirror Universe with the Terran Empire. It would have been great to see the Voyagers Terran Empire. Yet again, Janeway could have used the device to get home instead of destroying it. Though I imagine the plot would have been an opportunity to expand the Terran Empire into the Delta Quadrant.
My personal theory about the mirror universe (it's not called a parallel universe), is that each one we see is a different one. Each having a different focal point where both universes meet. Then the past is then created in the mirrored universe to make sense of the universe. Because in the mirror universe the history and offspring should be difference based on everyone decisions. And those effects should ripple across their timeline. The events and people will be the most similar at the focal point.
For it to be a true mirror universe, there has to be a focal point at one point of time. We seen characters dies in mirror universe that are live in the main universe. So as time passes from the focal point more noise will added until you are not able to reconized it as a true mirror universe. Though, it's my personal theory.
But again, mirror universe may not be the best term. Since all a mirror does is reflect back to your image. So maybe, the mirror universe shows what is at the core of federation. The true reflection of what the federation is. That a social utopia is really an empire in disguise, masking it's true form. But I'm still thinking that theory out.
Hopefully you also will review ENT or DS9
Eventually, but not sure if it'll be next. That'll be up to the patrons.
Well.. Progress for spacedog?? Maybe??
But at what cost?
@@Unlimited_Lives I guess we'll find out as the story progresses
That no one is talking about space dog's new neat look is surprising, I know this was an ep that raised a lot of debates but just look at space dog!
@@rebbekahcannons9805 Love the saga of Space dog.
"Dom Janeway" 🤣
I agree with you about the unconscious bias in this episode.
Did the people who designed the make-up for the aliens in this episode get their inspiration from the (terrible) 1980s "Beauty and the Beast" TV series?
Thank you. I knew I'd get a bit of pushback on this as I did with that Q episode that a handful of people objected to. It's all "enGagEmeNT" I suppose, but it's tiring trying to sort the people just not seeing it from those arguing in bad faith.
And how DARE you! That was Ron Perlman you're mocking! Dammit, now I have to try and find a few episodes to remind me.
I don't see much resemblance to 80's-Beast.
Eyebrows shaped like a V ?
That's hardly a unique ° ° characteristic.
*domme 😶
I understand the difference, but I've used Dom rather than Domme in the captions because I don't think that form of linguistic othering will have survived into the 24th Century, though I've no doubt there are examples in the shows. I have no issue with those who prefer to use it for themselves, but such things are already an anachronism now in the eyes of many. The actor/actress debate currently ongoing is an indicator of future direction I think.
@@Unlimited_Lives so… the holodeck knows the difference between dom and domme!?! Computer, safeties off!!!! Wheeeeee!!!!
When you implied, there's a chance that space dog might end up turning into a lizard, I half thought you meant Tom Paris.
I feel you were a little heavy handed in your criticism. The over-embellishment of Chakotay's tribal tattoo and Janeway's hair can be a fair representation of how little the people who made the recreation understood about their subject matter. To read more into it suggests a personal bias more than anything else. Queer coding Janeway? Being as I am gay and have been for quite some time (47 years and counting), I never saw it like that no matter how many times I've seen this episode. To me, it shows a civilization who misunderstood a key moment in their own history and used their own prejudices to paint Voyager and her crew as villains with a light-year wide brush. Their own ignorance prompted them to invert personalities and use a ship passing by their system as the fall guy to cover for their own prejudices.
Pinned comment.
I was very ready to hate this episode when I thought it was doing some Mirror Universe Shenanigans (the single worst running plot point in every trek show, only second to Section 31), but it turned it around with how it was revealed.
Personally I too adore this episode, but on all parades a little rain must fall. So, to add to the nitpicks in the episode, the instructor on hostage situations for Starfleet tactical needs to be talked to, cause no one on that security team knows the first thing about dealing with them. Getting them out of Engineering so they can't touch the warp core, fine I get that. The problem becomes egregious in their approach in the mess hall. Yes, you cover the exits, yes you clear noninvolved people away, but bungling in dick first with no cover, and in a fashion seemingly designed to unnerve your targets is just aggressively a bad idea. You have to try to establish trust with the hostage takers, work to calm them, give them an expectation of survival, or they may just kill the hostages out of spite and go down fighting. If you must act, you press, you keep them shooting at you so they cannot think about the hostages. There were like a thousand ways to handle that situation within five seconds.
Or just attack them with a severed arm. Works on crocodiles.
@@Unlimited_Lives Ha, so you were there for that? That was macabre and I loved that it worked.
I was rendering this very video while you were doing it, hence why I was up at obscene o'clock for me.
@@Unlimited_Lives Fair enough, I am glad I could be entertainment for you while you were working. I hope you got some rest today though.
Not exactly. TH-cam decided that I'd be doing captions the hard way, so we had that to deal with. Now I'm handling the (minor and entirely expected) pushback from the summary. Should've just put the expected arguments in a pinned comment to save myself the time.
Blast Hardcheese has arrived! I'm only disappointed that he didn't have a bigger part in the episode. Other than that, exceptional episode, particularly the deserved praise and critique.
In my defense, he was the first non-cast speaking part so I assumed importance. A flaw in the Wheel perhaps...
It's all good, it's not like I didn't suggest more MST3K names 😁
Next one's already on the Wheel.
I really fucking love this episode, I remember watching it when it aired for the first time and was gutted Robert Picardo left the show but at least he went out on a high....so I was extremely confused to see him in the very next episode. I'd missed the back up aspect of the character in this but that in itself gave me more questions, Were we seeing the actual Doctor in the past scenes that the back up Doctor got memories for, or was it the back up Doctor? Even though it's labelled as a back up file, was this the original Doctor and every appearance since is a back up version? How many times have we seen the back up version since first mentioned in Message a bottle? How many back up versions are there?
Also...Holy shit, I'd never seen the tribal aspect and queer coding of the Warship Voyager Chakotay and Janeway until you mentioned it and I'm disappointed I didn't see it before now because you're spot on. To which I can only say
FUCK YOU RICK BERMAN!!
If we ever do merch, I think FUCK YOU RICK BERMAN would make a great tee.
What we're seeing is a backup of the Doctor. Said backup is mentioned not at all prior to this episode to my memory. In fact, we're told it's not possible for multiple Science Reasons (though I suspect a central reason was to provide a potential sense of peril when he's in the mobile emitter).
We can explain it away by saying it's traded tech (which might work, as that module didn't look very Federation to me). Perhaps some other species has a particularly good version of Zip drives or something.
@@Unlimited_Lives In Message in a bottle Tom wants Harry to make a new Doctor as Tom doesn't want to be stuck in Sickbay if the Doctor doesn't make it back. It goes about as well as you expect and it does the Hologram equivalent of the Blue Screen of Death and then it's never mentioned again. Also this episode is set 1400 years into the future, the furthest out in the future for any Star Trek episode.
If there is a T-shirt I'd want it to say "Tom Paris is a dick" on the front and "But again, I digress" on the back 😂
I wonder how often that happend in what we see in our history books....nothing in our closer past of course *performs duck & cover*
And now imagine how the future may look at stuff...like in a country in the middle of Europe with a thing for beer & world wars?
I left a comment an episode or two ago, saying that we are leading to the pen ultimate best episode. and this was it on sooooo many levels. Even though you have your reservations about the race insinuations in it, it is by far one of the best episodes the show had for two reasons, first the doc shows he is wanting to exonerate his friends but in the end chooses to forget that notion i ordet to save this civilization from tearing them selves to shreds , knowing that his dead fiends, are innocent he is content to go into oblivion with that knowledge and the second reason is the tear jerker, even after 700 years and knowing his friends were long gone, he decided to go onto the journey his friends continued on, to home. I wished after the series ended their could have been a compendium episode showing this docs voyage....heading homeward....700 years later....damn it. Im crying.
Even with those issues, it's still going to be one of the standout episodes. If I ever do a top 5, it's currently in it.
Given the timing of the back up doctor being activated and then later leaving for Earth, and comparing it to the timeline of DISCO season 3 and 4, the backup doc should be arriving in the Alpha quad around the current time of Discovery...
@@magical_catgirl **possibly** That works on the assumption that the vehicle he's given runs at roughly the same average speed of Voyager, giving it the same rough journey time. We also aren't definitively told how long he stayed before departing, only that it was "many years" (and at least 6 years, as that's when the guide carked it).
It's a good estimate to start with certainly, but there are a lot of variables too (burn, mushrom drive, V8 space folding). That said, I'd have welcomed the crossover.
You are right about the potential message of Chakotay's larger tattoo, but this may go down to half-assed research. Specifically, crossing the made-up and unexplained tattoo traditions of the made-up loosely based on Mayans and the Hopi tribe Chakotay is from with war paint. Presumably, the idea here is more war paint is more scary, and that the person making the historical hologram of Chakotay would be using a description not much more specific than "he had tattoos all over on side of his face." I'm trying to think of a way to depict Chakotay as scarier while relying on the kinds of details people hold onto in high stress situations, and I'm not getting very far. Of course, I'm just one person, between all of the writers, actors, and on set persons, they could probably have come up with something.
The inherent problem is a problem, though I would be interested to hear the point of view of Native Americans at the time more than I am to hear your criticism after 20 years of... progress? that this episode cannot partake in. Or the Native Americans of now, who are often bothered by different things than what the internet would have you believe. You might find that Chakotay having a tattoo A) on his face or b) at all is of more concern to them than whether or not they make it bigger to make him scarier. I suspect given all of the other problems with his mishmash heritage, Chakotay's tattoo would be their least grievance.
Plus it's entirely a holo episode. The entire thing is a holorecording besides the last few seconds. The best way to use a holodeck/grid/suite!
An excellent point. I now have a truly good holodeck episode to point to.
"Blast Hardcheese" sounds suspiciously like an unfortunate and painful reproductive issue.
or they only really remembered the tattoos and they got exacerbated with the retelling.
I've never thought negatively about indigenous people, nor gay people since watching this episode. Love your videos mate, but I really do think you're looking too much into the design changes of this episode.
I didn't get wet, so it's not raining.
Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
Don't mistake your experience with leg pissers for an absence of rain.
@@Unlimited_Lives Rain cleanses the air... Sci fi cleanses the mind. Voyager does its best to break away the clouds for both. It may not be perfect, but at the very least, it is 'Trek'.
@@fatwombat7936 We're getting away from the main pont, but I agree with your sentiment so let's call that a compromise. I've no desire to see the show villified, only to not gloss over its imperfections.
Hard cheese, Hardcheese
Brilliant 😂😂😂
ngl, was a little bit happy with that.
It suits you Spacedog! While this episode had its problems, the core idea was really interesting. The acting was really good and I liked the world building. I would have liked to have seen more like this, the impact of Voyager's journey and the myths that grow up around it.
Yes I was uncomfortable at times. You could tell the creators had some odd ideas but as far as I can tell, they were prevalent in the executives.
Chakotay's tattoo didn't make much sense, Why would it be a Maori style one? Why emphasise that? If his tattoo was so significant to the myth, perhaps we should have seen it on others.
Janeway's short haircut etc, mm that is not military, she should either have had shorter hair or her own length.
The 'naughty / domme / lesbian' thing was a cliche to show a character was evil / deranged / possessed even at the time, some writers used it as a shortcut instead of character development. Strangely enough, it was never done for male characters. Is that acceptable? No but it happened.
Great epilogue about the glaring racial issues
Thank you so much for pointing out the issues with the episode. I’ve always loved this one and didn’t quite know why I felt uneasy about some of the evil variant portrayal, but I did. You nailed it as usual.
Cheers! It's a gem of an episode, it just has that flaw on a single facet.
Wow!
This episode of the show was weird. Lol
But this episode of the show was great!
Wonderful work!
Cheers!
IVe been watching these in a random order, just whatever YT said, and I hit a run with space dog at the end, then nothing for a few, I was starting to miss Space dog, and now hes back. Woo!
Janeway's hair is not queer coding. Sorry. They just wouldn't have been going down that avenue that subtly when this was made. The coding here is combat ready. Long hair is considered (by men) a liability in hand-to-hand combat. My personal experience is that while having it grabbed and used as a handle does redirect my head, it doesn't hurt, and I will just find a new angle to counterattack you from. But people with shorter hair (men again) haven't been having their hair pulled since they were children and they do find someone getting a fist full of their much shorter hair shockingly painful. Janeway's hair in this season is long enough to easily get a grip on and short enough for that to be fairly problematic, not to mention in her eyes. It isn't wildly unreasonable that this species with hair on their heads would have similar hair-combat experience, so taking the description of her as "short haired" which for a woman it is and having that exaggerated by the maker of the hologram to be combat practical is not unreasonable. And no, I would not expect female writers to have a different perspective on this combat readiness wisdom, though I suppose they could.
Would you mind checking your own stereotypes that kickass women with short hair have to be queer? I know quite a lot of cops who would happily rearrange that for you. It doesn't matter that it's a trope, because subverting the trope is always an option. I shaved my head for a swim meet, nothing at all to do with my sexuality, though the way I was treated by people outside my social circle means I won't soon be doing it again. I'm really quite sick of being treated like I'm something I'm not or not the thing I am because I don't fit neatly into some particular box, but I like my long hair too, and that at least silences most people presumably through indecision.
Btw.. I most ask.. and please keep in mind that english is my second language. The tuvix episode u keep refering to in most of ur videos. I understand a tragic merging DNA accident happens that forced two crew members to become one life form, against their will. This lifeform gets to evolve a personality, but in the end we figure out how to get back the two crew members, by splitting the same DNA. Meaning on a molecular level, nothing has been lost. The two personalitites are simply split again. How is this murder? I understand the merged personality enjoyed being merged. But it becomes two lifeforms again. It isn't in the stricted sense death. For if the definition of death is based on a loss of personality... Then Odo and Curzon Dax being linked, then seperated again is a tragic death. Am I in the wrong here? How is Tuvix dead, when he lives on, as Tuvix and Neelix. Why isn't this treated as an opposite of split personality? And how can two lives mean less then one? They did not volunteer to beckme tuvix. The hate Janeway gets for this decision is facinating. Meanwhile Sisko get to do alot of shady stuff, and never gets called a murderer. It's interresting..
If you absorb a child back into its parents then, on a molecular level, nothing is lost. You still ate a fucking baby. The nub of your argument seems to be that Tuvix was created against the will of the donors. How then can a solution where Tuvix is destroyed against his will be moral?
Tuvix was not two personalities. This is explicit in the episode. He's not two consciounesses sharing a body as Odo and Curzon were when Jadzia shared out her former trill hosts to meet them. In that, their movement and subsequent reintegration lost nothing. A more fitting comparison would be Dukat killing Jadzia. Do we consider that not murder because her experiences lived on in Ezri?
Janeway's actions ended the life of an individual. It was done against his will. That is murder.
And, as I've said to others before, when I get around to other shows they'll be judged to the same standards. Sisko is an accessory to murder. Picard may have destroyed a whole civilisation when he "rescued" Wesley. Archer.... probably did stuff too, but who remembers Enterprise?
@@Unlimited_Lives I most admit, I am watching Enterprise now. And I kinda like it. It really shows a bit how 9/11 changed Star Trek awswell. Their is a razzle there with morality, that maybe u will enjoy. More of a between today, and Star Trek show. But yeah, I suppose that is a way to see it. Perhaps it is murder. It reminded me of the classic trolley dillema. Where u can't stop the trolley, but u can change the track. One path will kill one, and the second path kills two. For me Janeway's decission becomes the trolley track that kills one. Is it murder not to doom two crewmates to what we have established is death. Is there a thing as ethical murder? Can we make a comparrison with abortion? If it saves the life of the host, isn't it a worthwhile goal to do. Even more so when it saves two persons. I can't shake the feeling that I would probably do the same this as janeway. That my pragmatism, and the "need of the many, out ways the need of the few" would lead me there. Knowing that it would be perceived by many as a murder, and inaction, while still killing two, would be considered sparing a life. Is so intriguing. Thank you for replying. Even when Tuvix wasn't a part of this episode, u took ur time. Thank you! :)
I still prefer Babylon 5's take on the idea a little better, but yeah, this was a pretty good episode (and it went into far more detail since it got an entire episode instead of only about one quarter of one).
i sort of see it the other way. bigotry will add defamable traits on top and these people have gone all out to show the crew as negativly as possible. they were racist, they clearly hated tribalism, women with short hair and black gloves
Those are all human bigotries. They make no sense in the context of the aliens. Even if they did, not calling them out on the show legitimises them.
MST3K space mutiny!
Big McLargeHuge!
Oh I wish that name landed on the Hirogen
It would have been apt, but the Wheel deemed it to not be so and we must all obey the Wheel.
MST3K crossover, love it! I've been looking forward to your review of this great episode. "Tedron is deadron." had me laugh out loud.
Considering how good the episode was (and is even more relevant today), is it possible that the problems you listed were intended as satirizing bigoted stereotypes?
i.e. of course, these people are evil. Just look at Chakotay and his giant face tattoo and Janeway with her domineering attitude and presentation.
I understand what you're saying, but intent is secondary to impact.
I'm not suggesting their inclusion here was a deliberate attempt to press an agenda. It's entirely possible such changes were unintentional and subconscious. But we should ask why those choices were acceptable when, for example, similar suggestions of stereotyping for Garret Wang or Tim Russ would never have got off the ground. What made Indigenous people and queer communities either fair game or less worthy of that consideration?
@@Unlimited_Lives Good point. You've got me wondering now what the original writer thought, was it subconsciously derogatory or intentionally satirical? I'll have to do some pedant worthy investigating.
I checked the Memory Alpha entry on this to see if there was any mention of intent, as I wanted to know for myself. Nothing there, and I didn't feel up to more at the time, so I'd be interested to hear anything you find.
@@Unlimited_Lives I know some people frown upon using ChatGPT, but I find it to be useful for harvesting information on a topic like this when I can't find specifics on my own. It had this to say when I asked about the stereotypical nature of how Chakotay and Janeway are portrayed in the episode:
By presenting Chakotay as a stereotypical "brutal savage" and Janeway as an aggressive overbearing warlord, the episode satirizes the tendency to oversimplify and stereotype individuals or cultures in historical accounts. It highlights how these distorted representations can perpetuate misunderstandings and perpetuate conflict.
The intent of the episode's writer, Bryan Fuller (EDIT: who is gay and out, and is also known for the brilliant Pushing Daisies and Hannibal), was to explore the concept of historical revisionism and challenge the audience's preconceived notions about the characters. Through this satire, Fuller aimed to emphasize the importance of critical thinking, questioning established narratives, and seeking multiple perspectives in understanding history.
"Living Witness" offers a cautionary tale about the dangers of accepting historical accounts at face value and encourages viewers to consider the complexities and biases inherent in storytelling and interpretation.
EDIT: Now of course the teleplay included two other writers, so they may have changed how Chakotay and Janeway were originally presented (in addition to the director, producer, and head writer who also have leeway to do that). That being said, I think it's probably safe to say that their portrayals and presentation were intentional satire by the original writer.
Do we have a source on that? I find it odd to not call it out in the show if that was the intent.
Hey Unlimited Lives, in this episode you describe Janeway's hair as closely cropped, but the length of her hair does not change, as we see in the next episode "Demon", thus her hair is merely differently styled.
I know some people think you're fishing, but I'm here to agree. Biases do not need to be 100% conscious in the mind of the writer to present themselves. Didn't they also make mirror universe Kira a lesbian on DS9?
Beef Cheesesteak!
I do disagree with your assessment of the “coding” issue.
For the topic of Chakotay’s tattoo, I think it’s fitting that a people with a a negative impression of another group would hyperfocus on a trait and exaggerate it.
As distasteful as it may be, it’s actually pretty accurate representation of how people would perceive these things.
It’s accurate because it’s racist and it’s racist because it’s accurate.
It just that it fails because of the root examples of the “representation” that Chakotay represents.
As for Janeway’s hair, I think that’s a stretch. Cropped and tight hair has long been a staple of villains for much of the history of fiction. That she is a woman is beside the fact and I think the episode did a great job of NOT leaning into the “conniving fem fatal” or Janeway using her sex or sexuality as a plot point.
Pinned comment.
I really enjoyed the episode, I think its a good Doctor centric episode and I thought Chekotay enlarged tatoo was just a cartoon evil kind of thing.
But I do have one problem:
WHY THE FUCK DID STAR TREK DISCOVERY NOT USE THAT PLOT LINE LIKE GODAMN IT ITS A GOOD AND CANNONICLY POSSIBLE WAY TO RECONECT WITH OLDER STAR TREK AND ITS NOT LIKE ROBERT PICARDO GROWING OLD IS A PROBLEM WE ALL SAW Q ENTRENCE IN PICARD WITH THAT CGI THAT WAS A GOOD ENTRENCE, WORST GACE POSSIBLE YOU MAKE UP AN EXCUSE OR SOMETHING
😏🖖
🫡
This really upsets me. You keep calling out Janeway for "doing a murder". BRO! It wasn't murder... technically it was genocide.
I've considered this, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of making such regular gags about genocide. I was in two minds about the "Jenny who?" line in this one. You're right, but we'll keep it as murder.
@@Unlimited_Lives You make a great point. As always.
This episode is great, just enjoy it don't nitpick.
Thank you. I've mentioned the same problems, and been told I'm making a big deal out of nothing.
Ignorance means you don't have to consider the implications of your actions. That's why it's so seductive.
I was trying to time your upload and wasted time watching deep sea oddities instead, 27 minutes late
You nearly didn't get this one on time. TH-cam was being a bit of an arse about captions. Any more faff, and you'd have judged it right.
For some reason I thought this episode was in season 5. Werid
I know this is an older video, but I have been binging these videos and I couldn't resist offering an alternative perspective on not-Chakotay's tattoos.
It is not that they went more tribal, they went different tribal. Chakotay's tattoo is "traditional" design of his indigenous American tribe, worn in honor of his grandfather.
Not-Chakotay's tattoos on the other hand are much more reminiscent of Tā moko or other traditional Polynesian face tattoo. Granted, it is the sort of "Polynesian" design I would expect out of an American from the 90's who had seen them in a book once, but it is still more effort than usually went into Chakotay's character design.
The views on Tā moko have become more nuanced over the years, but from what I remember of the 90's the view was the purpose of the designs was as a way to make the wearer more intimidating. Switching the "spiritual" design for the "intimidating" one from the wrong culture would fit the theme of that particular simulation producing "evil" versions of the characters that got fundamental facts wrong.
It is also worth remembering that the Maori were among the very few cultures that were absorbed into the British Empire through treaty, rather than outright conquest. Considering his history with the Maquis and how they joined the crew of Voyager in a subordinate role, I can't help but wonder if this was a deliberate choice of cultural shift from the writers. I suppose you are not the only one to overthink things.
I will admit that I know nothing of Robert Beltran's heritage, but casting him as someone with partial Polynesian heritage would be plausible.