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You know. If the Borg Queen spent less time trying to plot how to take over the human race. Instead going back in time and telling her past self to just leave Voyager alone and also Species 8472. The Borg would still be a major threat as they were before. Now they are a shattered mess of smaller units trying to rebuild and being trimmed. I mean, there are other species out there that have dealt with the Borg and have the ability to keep the Borg in their place. I name one, The Voth, as one example. I mean, ever seen a Voth Drone? Seriously, I never seen a single Voth Drone among the Borg Collective. Heck a Borgified T-Rex, lol. God...I would have nightmares. Already have nightmares after seeing a Borgified 8472...which only happened in STO. And it was JUST ONE and it was tough SOB.
The Borg made a classic mistake, They decided to fight a woman who wakes up every morning, has a cup of coffee and thinks, huh? What war crime can I commit today because Starfleet is not here to watch me. RIP TUVIX.
The borg eventually became the galaxies door to door religious solicitors passing out pamphlets. "Do you feel alone? Unwanted? Unproductive? Have you considered assimilation?"
Jurati's Borg Cooperative I really hope is safe. I rather like the nice Borg. "Assimilation is voluntary, with your permission. You will then join our Cooperative. Otherwise... how's life?"
Fun thing in STO 7 of 9, became the acting leader/federation representive, of the borg cooperative, and they were also seen in the 26th century during the peace talks towards timetravel
While a friendly Borg faction is definitely great, it would’ve been nice to first see more insidious tactics of the Borg who “claimed” to be sharing their tech freely, only to assimilate an entire society/planet all at once. That would color all future diplomatic interactions with Borg factions with the underlying fear of “are they really being friendly? or is it just a ploy?” and therefore make the final payoff of “yes, they really were friendly” all the more satisfying.
"Admiral Janeway travelled back in time [...] which I would call cheating, but the Collective did try to assimilate Earth in the 21st Century so instead I'm gonna say Get Rekt" Had me rolling at that one. Bonus points for them failing their goal when going three centuries back, when Janeway barely even went back thirty years.
One of the things I tried to convey to my players in my ST Adventures campaign was the near-Tysonic reputation of Janeway and the Voyager crew among Starfleet crews after their return. There is literally no story about that ship they wouldn't believe. To hear them tell it, Janeway came out of the Borg transwarp network fully nude, riding on the Pale Horse of Death, with a phaser rifle in one hand and a broadsword in the other, screaming like a banshee as the entire sector was engulfed in flame, having kicked the galaxy's greatest hornet's nest and lived to tell the tale.
Until Second Contact decades later, one can just imagine all the stories told about Janeway and the USS Voyager. You actually don't even have to imagine-"Live Fast and Prosper" showed how the _legend_ of the Federation spread faster and farther than the ship itself.
Great video, I never really liked the idea of a queen in the borg, I felt it lowered what they are as a threat. When you first see them there was no talking, no reasoning with them, and no reaching out to their inner good. This was a total opposite of the Federation and how they won most the time. The ending showed you can talk to them, you can reason with them, so they are just like any other enemy.
I always liked the idea that she wasn't really in charge, just thought she was. All of those minds working in tandem and this pattern of a creature just sort of arises periodically from the chaos, more a physical representation of the will and operation of the collective than its "leader". Like a rogue wave, if you will. Decidedly not where they went with it, though, and in the end I agree with you.
It would have been cool if there hadn't been a queen before "Best of Both Worlds," and that she was a particular adaptation developed as a "Plan B" to Locutus as Plan A to counter the threat of individuality.
I remember the Borg get mentioned in passing in Discovery which makes me wonder whether they still exist in some form during the 32nd Century or whether they are a just a thing people learn about in history class
Are you sure they were mentioned in _DIS?_ I don't remember that at all, and a search on Memory Alpha just turned up the Easter egg that a borg child was in the classroom learning about Federation history in the far future at the end of the _Lower Decks_ episode, "Temporal Edict."
@@GSBarlev The mention I remember was in Season 4 when one character mentions that Species 10C have shared minds/consciousness and I think the President replied "You mean like the Borg?". The way she said it didn't make it clear if she's referring to the Borg in the present or past tense though
Persönlich hat mir der "destiny" Story Arc in den Büchern besser gefallen (Beginn und Ende der borg) Spannend war auch, dass die erste Borg Drohne ein Österreicher war :)
The separate, benign groups likely explain the friendly Borg we see in the 28th century temporal accord meetings in Star Trek Online and Borg student seen in the Lower Decks far future scene.
I wanna know what happens if what's left of the borg joins the dominion. A borg collective under the founders' control could subjugate the whole galaxy.
@ImDelphox I'm wondering if the Borg that still believe in their mission would go back to a Queen without the hive mind. Like how 7 of 9 only became more human because she was surrounded by them. If a hundred or so or even more Borg ships moved about like an Empire as opposed to one mind, then they might be a different kind of villain, but still a threat. Or hey, they could attempt to remake the hive mind. I wouldn't mind that. Bring the Borg back in a dramatic way, and either have them as one looming threat like they were between TNG and Voyager, or give them a real villain death as opposed to fizzling out like we did get. I think it would be really cool to see a show or even better a multi-show arc around all different crews and ships like TNG to Voyager, but with small reappearances of The Borg culminating in a real Borg return. But the majority of the outspoken fans at this point don't like new things. How unfortunate
@@ImDelphox Well the main Dominion is under Odo's control. So doubtful they'd make any progress in that direction. Any other groups of Changelings would all be renegades from the main Dominion host. And we've already seen how that plays out unsuccessfully.
The Octanti virus that the Octanti use to infect a Borg Cube causing them the equivalent of multiple personality disorder that eventually destroyed themselves … bringing chaos to order
Janeway burned her way across the delta quadrant, made fear feel fear, told death to F off, beat the things that could beat the borg, then destroyed 99.9999% of the borg faster than they could of
She says this and maybe she even believes it, but clearly she is different from regular drones, so it ultimately the contradicts the concept of a hive mind.
@@MrQuantumIncit doesn’t contradict the idea of a hive mind. It shows that even a hive mind needs a super-ego to provide a sense of self-awareness and to override basic instincts in favor of long term planning.
The Borg Kingdom from the Mirror Universe is so much more scary. Specifically the Star Trek Online variant. The Borg Collective is probably asking for help because of the Borg Kingdom.
The Borg Kingdom is basically the Borg that is well aware of resistance and knows that its capabilities might be countered so its more militeristic and far more dangerous as a result. The Control Borg are actually weaker than the BORG and BORG Kingdom. However there drones do use separate weapons systems that are not integrated making them more flexible.
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent True, but considering the Control Borg, unlike the Kingdom, seem to have actually assimilated all 4 Quadrants of their Galaxy with the exception of a single Iconian Sphere, That's saying something.
@@Chokah Yep. The Control borg are unique in that regard. Likely due to the fact that the Control borg are essentially a grey goo situation. At some point they made contact with that universes borg and became the Control Borg then spread out like a virus. Interestingly unlike the Borg Kingdom and traditional Borg the Control Borg appears to be more willing to converse at its targets indicating more individuality in their collective, although they also make reference of organics being weak, so it doesn't appear the Control Borg is about perfection or uplifting of other species. If anything its just about them taking control of anything and everything. So I guess that means the original BORG is about Unity and Perfection. The BORG Kingdom is Militant and Conquest. The Control BORG is the Virus and Control. So what are the Atherians? I don't trust them and the Borg Kingdom appears to know something about them to the point the kingdom was willing to negotiate a alliance with the Terran Empire.
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent Oh I've been wondering about them as well. The way they focus so MUCH on "Unity" and yet we've so far ONLY met Aetherians from their Universe, no sign of any other races...You'd think making First Contact across Universes, you'd pick a member of a race you're talking to, IF you have any...
I never understood how the transporter code was never caught in a routine maintenance. Especially when Dr. Crusher caught the Borg codes in Picard when they were examining him together on the _Enterprise_ . You would also think that Starfleet would be tired of getting hacked and/or assimilated, and have protocols against both situations. But then I guess the plot couldn't happen if that was true. Unfortunate that the last gasp of _Picard_ as a series was one long series of 'because the plot says so.' Interesting that _STO_ gave us two answers to making the Borg a credible threat again. Well, three: they could assimilate whole planets and even the Undine; redoing the Battle of Wolf 359 via simulation, and the different, multiversal versions of the Borg recently encountered.
I don't remember the STO regular borg ever being able to do anything to the Undine still, the Mirror Borg could. Tho Mirror Borg/Borg Kingdom in STO are absolutely cracked in terms of power, if your player character wasn't basically space jesus, then basically every power left in the galaxy would be already done. Tho in STO's context and hindsight, most of these galaxy crisis usually involve some alternate version of Tasha Yar or Sela, especially after the last major release that effectively involved alternate versions of both in the same room
@@Trent957 There was a bit of a storyline before the Iconian War broke out where we needed to stop a Cube from getting back to the rest of the Collective by destroying it, precisely because they'd assimilated an Undine.
It would be possible, but you would have to corrupt not just a bunch of transporters but the master copy of the blueprints and source code, and much of the organizations that develop this technology and enforce standardization. Though I would agree with you that it seems unlikely with the Federation. It seems unlikely for them to all maintain silence and look the other way when their co-workers and bosses start behaving suspiciously.
@@MrQuantumInc And it all goes out the window if a diligent maintenance crew on some random ship finds the codes, and then reports it to their colleagues. I imagine of Nog's _Chimera_ were around, not only would they have stopped the code, but they'd have found the rogue Changelings and worked out a trick to trap them before they could even begin to launch their plan. Nog was very smart and ambitious as a Starfleet officer, and I miss him. His exclusion from all recent missions still hurts. Can't even talk to him at DS9.
I can imagine all the splinter Borg communities from Janeway and Picard's involvements will essentially unify under Doctor Jurati who acts as the Queen of all those saved from the Borg but cannot live without a 'collective' and the trauma doing so can bring. Being part of something bigger and cooperative and then eventually becoming another member of the Federation, or otherwise living the rest of their organic lives until they die off (as they wont be assimilating new people against their will).
This was excellent. Thank you for such a great and straight to the point explanation. There was bits of info I needed that I did not put together on how the Queen kept surviving. Kudos!
I subscribe to the fan theory, that the Borg didn't just assimilate but cultivate civilizations. Each incursion into Federation space was like knocking over an ant hill. Come back in a while, and it's rebuilt better than before.
I think one of the main arguments against that idea is the First Contact movie. Why would the Borg "cultivate" the Federation and then try to time travel to remove the Federation suddenly? Surely they could just attack with a fleet of Cubes if they thought the Federation had grown too powerful and they wanted to harvest tech and biological "distinctiveness" from the Federation and its member races. I do agree its the best explanation overall for why the Borg don't just dump a few hundred Cubes straight on Earth instead of sending single Cubes at Earth every few years, especially given Voyager's confirmation that the Borg Trans-warp network can dump ships on top of Earth at will. That said I question why the whole plot of First Contact happened like it did if that was the Borg's true objectives.
@CertifiablyIngame Yes, exactly. Risky? Maybe. The character Arcturis from Species 116 stated that Borg probed his species weaknesses for centuries. When the Borg finally came, they surrounded his star system with hundreds of cube. The UFP only experienced one cube at a time.
@@NATIK001 I actually think the Borg used time travel to attempt to assimilate Earth in the past as a contingency plan in their ongoing conflict with Species 8472. This video overlooks that fact, but timeline wise, it makes sense that the Borg were already fighting and losing a war to 8472 during the movie First contact. Basically, the threat of 8472 was so extreme to the Collective that the Queen was willing to throw away the technological gains the Collective would have gotten by assimilating Earth in the present to instead establish a new foothold in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant by assimilating it in the past, giving them more territory and time to attempt to adapt to 8472.
I never understood how a much older tech ship was able to defeat a future Borg ship when essentially they should've been able to adapt easily to everything that they had to throw at the Borg.
The Borg Cooperative was one of the powers behind the Temporal Treaty in the 29th Century. It is likely that the Borg of the Cooperative and the other Borg Unions Hhve become Nomadic while maintaining some base colonies for various reasons. Unlike Collective, being part of the Borg Unions is voluntary. Oddly one of main reasons why the Borg had survived was due to a lot of races assimilated did mind being part of a Hive structure as long as they were able to maintain individuality.
They really overexposed the BORG and completely ruined it in VOY. Having a queen is ok as first among equal but making her illogical and basically a plotting human is stupid. The BORG is a force of nature, dumb them down to basically zombies was just stupid
I headcanon that the Borg have been through multiple cycles of rise and fall. Guinan mentioned that they have been around for thousands of centuries. The Picard series is just another downturn that the Borg will rise up from again.
It's interesting that if you include the apocrypha that is the Trek Novel serieses, the Borg aren't the first hive mind in the setting...I seem to recall at least one novel involving a linked collective, though that was a linked set of individuals (more in the style that is exemplified by Mars in the 'Miracle of Science' webcomic) rather than one that removed individuality. To be honest, I would have loved to have seen something like that pop up in Trek as a counter-point to the Borg we got. ("You call that a hive-mind? *This* is a hive-mind, you boring saps!").
It would be cool if future large scale interactions with the current Borg are as friends, maybe even one of the benign factions becoming an official Federation Member, greatly bolstering the Federation as a whole. Imagine if the Federation had a friendly borg enclave allied with it during the Dominion War? Such an alliance could have steamrolled the Dominion Forces, sending survivors fleeing from the Alpha Quadrant with their tails between their legs.
"You can't outrun them. You can't destroy them. If you damage them the essence of what they are remains. They regenerate and keep coming. Eventually you will weaken, your reserves will be gone. They are relentless!"
I always liked that the origin of the Borg was never explained. They were always better as this nebulous, persistent threat, like a natural disaster. However, I always imagined their origin as one of those "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" stories. One of the best villains in fiction. They hit two fundamental fears at the same time, because they were space zombies who were also more intelligent and advanced than the heroes. The best advantage the heroes had was that they were so far beneath the Borg that they weren't considered a threat.
I'm reminded of the Cybermen from Doctor Who. They *started* as a survival method on a dying world. And then to quote a certain sidekick from Quantum Leap, 'Things went a little ca-ca'.
I prefer the book-canon's solution to the Borg--re-admit them into the far more powerful group mind they were originally separated from in the distant past. Far better to prevent the Borg from _wanting_ to assimilate instead of killing every single one of them to prevent them from doing so. Shame about Risa though...
Disappointed by the Borg's seeming destruction by Janeway as shown in Picard. Feel like THEY of all antagonists could not possibly be undone by such meager time travel shenanigans. Not when the Borg Queen is first introduced by tut tutting Picard about thinking so 3 dimensionally. Like yeah if the Doctor showed up in a Tardis and took them out from all of time, sure. That's a temporal supernova. Janeway was a minor cold in comparison and it was quite underwhelming all things considered. I guess the writers figured the Borg were just too big a threat to just have out there at full strength.
"Undone by the tools of her own making." As others have said, I think you meant bad writing and overuse. 😂 It's hard to be the "mysterious" big baddy of the setting when the writers of Picard default to them as the main antagonist almost every time.
Honestly, I think they would have stopped being scary over time regardless- a mysterious foe will never stay mysterious forever in a series all about exploring the unknown and figuring out the mysteries of the universe.
@CollinBuckman True. And to your point I would have preferred waiting until Starfleet at least started exploring the Delta Quantrant more to finally unravel the mystery of what happened to the Borg after Janeway. Some of the later shows make the Borg seem almost obsessed with humanity (or vice-versa). I.e. Picard where the Borg were the primary focus for two full seasons (with the third season hardly acknowledging the events and the borg factions of the second season at all.)
The borg is popular...which means for as long as new Star Trek series are being developed there's always a chance they'll come back in some shape or form.
The way they treated the Borg is a disgrace. This is why we can’t have nice things. Every single race in Star Trek is some variant on being human.. nothing is truly alien. Hey the Borg are much more advanced..no problem, modulate your shields or something….
The fall of the Borg is not dissimilar to when you're playing a real time strategy game and your opponent makes a death ball of units that blob up and just walk right through your forces but through careful tactical game play, positioning and general counter play, you can still whittle down the blob until it's more manageable or even defeat it outright.
I still hope the Queen we saw in S3 of Picard was just a sickly, disconnected survivor, who'd gone mad with the disease and isolation. There was a sphere that assimilated the pathogen, could have been others that dwhotoo who have their new queen and are recovering in the Delta Quadrant.
In case one hadn't noticed, Voyager spent considerable time and effort hyping Janeway up while attempting to address her numerous mistakes and criticisms. Some characters, notably Chakotay, ended up being glorified yes men because contradicting her was simply not allowed. First female captain *cannot fail*. And Janeway's greatest sin, aside from maybe stranding Voyager in the first place, was negotiating with the Borg. There were many episodes devoted to unf-ing the mess caused by that, but ultimately the writers concluded the best thing to do was have an alternate version of Janeway commit genocide to clean up her mess. No Borg, no problem!
If there is even a single borg ship that was cut off sonewhere, all that needs to happen is someone randomly messing with it and it could reactivate and create a new queen. I wouldnt count the borg out.
I was under the idea that the queen is a physical representation of the hive mind, but that her core is a massive device off in space some where, so what we see isn't what she is/was, in fact you can't get rid of it without first destroying that ship/station/core/building thing. so getting rid of the transwarp nexus only affects the borgs ability to get to the core. but the core is safe and sound elsewhere. this means that of the remaining borg, there is still the classic villain borg out there somewhere. oh, and I doubt it is considered canon but one of the shatner star trek books with kirk has kirk survive on a borg trash planet and meet up with disconnected borg survivors so those guys are technically alive and well too. they removed their implants and replaced them with organic parts from other bodys resulting in a frakenstein/patchwork-zombie look, and of course kirk is intimate with one of their female zombie girls, so there might be a kirk borg son/daughter out there somewhere, along with a klingon romulan kirk baby as well. the books are worth a read by the way.
I don't consider Secret Hideout to be canon, so that leaves me with Star Trek Online... In which the Borg are pretty much harmless if you're a Fleet Admiral. I enjoy playing the Battle of Wolf 359, where our team's collective OP weaponry would annihilate the cube in seconds if it didn't have plot armour 😆
The Borg are a hive made of countless minds, they can assimilate memories. Yet, not understand the motivations or drives of the individual. Their willing ignorance is what lead to their defeat.
It’s a shame that the Borg hive mind became so dependent on the Queens as the shows went on. I would’ve thought that a core strength (& therefore a terrifying aspect of) the Collective would be the sheer inertia of the hive mind in maintaining its will, no matter how fractured (in other words, the power of decentralization). As we’ve seen in the past, disconnected Borg can form their own “mini hive minds”, and for those that spent their whole lives as part of the Collective, their “addiction”/“need” to join a Collective would naturally compel them to form new ones even when fully severed from the main hive. (Whether via reconnecting with nearby drones, or assimilating new drones.) This way, the Borg would be less a monolith that can be defeated by hitting its foundation (ie the Queen), and more like a weed or virus that can’t be fully stomped out even after killing 99.9% of the drones. Big missed opportunity. :/
That's not crazy. The Jurati borg was dumb. I did like season's 3 attempt to make the remnant of the collective that Janeway destroyed rallying with remnants of the changelings who had a beef. It wasn't executed great but I appreciated the attempt.
Time travel tropes are always, "Bring more firepower, attack sooner." Why aren't they ever, "Go back in time, send a message to past self, "Turn around, run away."
Didn't they essentially do that in Strange New Worlds? Future Pike meets with Past Pike and says, "If you do the thing, Spock's gonna die." (Or something to that effect).
im thinking borg as they where in star trek TNG started off with one race that developed the inplant tech and at first inplants where volontary then after a time they started to force people to use inplants maybe after the first basic collective was created
With all that, I have to wonder if STO will have to redo parts of the game, because it shows the Borg returning in 2409. However, I read in a Next Gen novel titled Star Trek Resistance, by J.M. Dillard, about something that could make the Borg a threat again. (Spoiler Alert) In the novel, Picard and the Enterprise-E learn that the Borg were converting a drone into a new queen. This does make a bit of sense, since bees make a new queen for their hive when the old queen either dies, goes missing, or grows too old. Perhaps something similar could make the Borg a renewed threat again. Same old Borg, but under "new management," so to speak.
The borg were scary because they could think/act as fast as machines, they had the collective knowledge of thousands of planets, and they ADAPTED very quickly to whatever what thrown at them. So in theory, if they were shot, the second shot wouldn't work on any of their ships, etc. But that made them TOO OP so they were nerfed and beaten. In my opinion their true strange weaknesses was how they would assimilate people. They would just hogpog parts onto a person and call it good. They could have used the genetic/organic information from all those worlds to create organic super entities, with a perfect machine integration. Constantly improving, faster, smarter, more adaptive, etc. But they went for "hogpog jerry rigged army" instead. Also their tech was the same. Their ships were only "good enough" instead of a pursuit to create "perfect ultra advanced technology" in all their ships. True this has it's advantages, but an entity always improving is WAY scarier than one with countless half assed abominations. Just my thoughts.
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I tried Fleet Command. It crashed every FIVE MINUTES. It's probably a good game, but it's not optimized in any way whatsoëver.
transfer to server 703 CI. we will sort you out.
I kinda now wanna see a certified Index on the Vex from destiny now. Lots of addendum content potential.
I tried it for the game and they didn't accept it. What gives dude?
How is ðe comment 2 Days old?
Strange that you needed a whole video to say "they pissed off Janeway".
Never mess with janeway
Yeah they made the mistake of crossing mamma bear and got the claws
What an erudite observation. Don't frick with Mama.
They stole the last can of organic coffe and replaced the replicator recipe with Neelix's substitute.
THATS IT❤😂😂
"Janeway shaped mallet". Yep, that'll do it it. 😂
There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway.
RIP TUVIX
"Janeway happened"
The only summary of Voyager you need.
"Things we going well. And then The Janeway attacked."
@@Chokah all good things...
Untill Janeway got mad
You know. If the Borg Queen spent less time trying to plot how to take over the human race. Instead going back in time and telling her past self to just leave Voyager alone and also Species 8472. The Borg would still be a major threat as they were before. Now they are a shattered mess of smaller units trying to rebuild and being trimmed. I mean, there are other species out there that have dealt with the Borg and have the ability to keep the Borg in their place. I name one, The Voth, as one example. I mean, ever seen a Voth Drone? Seriously, I never seen a single Voth Drone among the Borg Collective. Heck a Borgified T-Rex, lol. God...I would have nightmares. Already have nightmares after seeing a Borgified 8472...which only happened in STO. And it was JUST ONE and it was tough SOB.
Coffee, Neelix, then Janeway destroyed everything.
Janeway keeps transporter copies of Tuvix around for when she gets particularly blood thirsty.
The Borg made a classic mistake, They decided to fight a woman who wakes up every morning, has a cup of coffee and thinks, huh? What war crime can I commit today because Starfleet is not here to watch me. RIP TUVIX.
This comment wins!!!
That was rally on point xD she really is in a race with sisko for the worst crimes at least she didn't poison a planet
Fortunate Son intensifies
@@DrHenrikout in the Wilderness Prime Directives are Prime Suggestions
Tuvix was wrong.
If Voyager tought you anything, it is "Never ever piss off Janeway"
Indeed.
Most of the Delta Quadrant chose to learn that lesson the hard way.
Heck, even the Q got schooled by Janeway.
If the Continuum has told you once, it's told you a thousand times. DON'T PROVOKE JANEWAY!
The borg eventually became the galaxies door to door religious solicitors passing out pamphlets.
"Do you feel alone? Unwanted? Unproductive?
Have you considered assimilation?"
Star Trek's version of the Priors and the Ori.
Or the hare Krishna or Jehovah's witnesses@@garrettbodwell61
In the past we called it “brainwashing”. Now we call it “nanites subliminally influencing your brain”. 😈
Jurati's Borg Cooperative I really hope is safe. I rather like the nice Borg.
"Assimilation is voluntary, with your permission. You will then join our Cooperative. Otherwise... how's life?"
I feel it might be more insidious than you think. Slowly, surely... restlessly you'll be assimilated, but you might not notice it.
Fun thing in STO 7 of 9, became the acting leader/federation representive, of the borg cooperative, and they were also seen in the 26th century during the peace talks towards timetravel
I mean, the hopeful, cooperative future *is* the point the point of Star Trek, so it fits.
While a friendly Borg faction is definitely great, it would’ve been nice to first see more insidious tactics of the Borg who “claimed” to be sharing their tech freely, only to assimilate an entire society/planet all at once.
That would color all future diplomatic interactions with Borg factions with the underlying fear of “are they really being friendly? or is it just a ploy?” and therefore make the final payoff of “yes, they really were friendly” all the more satisfying.
You will be assimilated, if you like. Resistance is understandable and will be respected.
"must have been something you assimilated"-Future Janeway
The way she raises her eye brow when she says that... *Swoons*
Admiral “It’s not a War Crime the first time” Janeway.
Janeway and Sisko: "I'm not saying it's not a war crime. I'm saying I can live with it."
@ hahaha
"Admiral Janeway travelled back in time [...] which I would call cheating, but the Collective did try to assimilate Earth in the 21st Century so instead I'm gonna say Get Rekt"
Had me rolling at that one. Bonus points for them failing their goal when going three centuries back, when Janeway barely even went back thirty years.
The Borg would have been better served with a Dominion War type Arc, instead of the overuse of them over the years.
That's the direction I went with my fanfic. Federation and allies go to war again when the Borg invade the multiverse.
I found it great this way.
One of the things I tried to convey to my players in my ST Adventures campaign was the near-Tysonic reputation of Janeway and the Voyager crew among Starfleet crews after their return. There is literally no story about that ship they wouldn't believe.
To hear them tell it, Janeway came out of the Borg transwarp network fully nude, riding on the Pale Horse of Death, with a phaser rifle in one hand and a broadsword in the other, screaming like a banshee as the entire sector was engulfed in flame, having kicked the galaxy's greatest hornet's nest and lived to tell the tale.
Some will argue that she was, in fact, riding on the White Horse of War. The rest is accepted as absolute Starfleet crewman gospel.
Until Second Contact decades later, one can just imagine all the stories told about Janeway and the USS Voyager. You actually don't even have to imagine-"Live Fast and Prosper" showed how the _legend_ of the Federation spread faster and farther than the ship itself.
"Resistance is never futile."
Something a lot of us needed to hear these days. Thanks, Rick.
Great video, I never really liked the idea of a queen in the borg, I felt it lowered what they are as a threat. When you first see them there was no talking, no reasoning with them, and no reaching out to their inner good. This was a total opposite of the Federation and how they won most the time. The ending showed you can talk to them, you can reason with them, so they are just like any other enemy.
I always liked the idea that she wasn't really in charge, just thought she was. All of those minds working in tandem and this pattern of a creature just sort of arises periodically from the chaos, more a physical representation of the will and operation of the collective than its "leader". Like a rogue wave, if you will. Decidedly not where they went with it, though, and in the end I agree with you.
It would have been cool if there hadn't been a queen before "Best of Both Worlds," and that she was a particular adaptation developed as a "Plan B" to Locutus as Plan A to counter the threat of individuality.
I remember the Borg get mentioned in passing in Discovery which makes me wonder whether they still exist in some form during the 32nd Century or whether they are a just a thing people learn about in history class
if memory serves and they arent using their classic BS, its likely one of the cooperative factions
@@SuperGamefreak18Does you BS stand for bullshit or borg sphere?
Are you sure they were mentioned in _DIS?_ I don't remember that at all, and a search on Memory Alpha just turned up the Easter egg that a borg child was in the classroom learning about Federation history in the far future at the end of the _Lower Decks_ episode, "Temporal Edict."
@@GSBarlev The mention I remember was in Season 4 when one character mentions that Species 10C have shared minds/consciousness and I think the President replied "You mean like the Borg?". The way she said it didn't make it clear if she's referring to the Borg in the present or past tense though
Persönlich hat mir der "destiny" Story Arc in den Büchern besser gefallen (Beginn und Ende der borg)
Spannend war auch, dass die erste Borg Drohne ein Österreicher war :)
Seven of Nine says it well in STO, "Resistance is inevitable."
In STo there is many borgs realities , the Borg kingdon says resistence is anielated
"Janeway Happened." That's an understatement!
The separate, benign groups likely explain the friendly Borg we see in the 28th century temporal accord meetings in Star Trek Online and Borg student seen in the Lower Decks far future scene.
I like that they're still around, and could become a threat again, just not as a collective, but to the same ends
I wanna know what happens if what's left of the borg joins the dominion. A borg collective under the founders' control could subjugate the whole galaxy.
@ImDelphox I'm wondering if the Borg that still believe in their mission would go back to a Queen without the hive mind. Like how 7 of 9 only became more human because she was surrounded by them. If a hundred or so or even more Borg ships moved about like an Empire as opposed to one mind, then they might be a different kind of villain, but still a threat. Or hey, they could attempt to remake the hive mind. I wouldn't mind that. Bring the Borg back in a dramatic way, and either have them as one looming threat like they were between TNG and Voyager, or give them a real villain death as opposed to fizzling out like we did get.
I think it would be really cool to see a show or even better a multi-show arc around all different crews and ships like TNG to Voyager, but with small reappearances of The Borg culminating in a real Borg return.
But the majority of the outspoken fans at this point don't like new things. How unfortunate
@@ImDelphox Well the main Dominion is under Odo's control. So doubtful they'd make any progress in that direction. Any other groups of Changelings would all be renegades from the main Dominion host. And we've already seen how that plays out unsuccessfully.
The Octanti virus that the Octanti use to infect a Borg Cube causing them the equivalent of multiple personality disorder that eventually destroyed themselves … bringing chaos to order
Janeway burned her way across the delta quadrant, made fear feel fear, told death to F off, beat the things that could beat the borg, then destroyed 99.9999% of the borg faster than they could of
Could have, not could of.
@zeux5583 is their be a assigned seatin chart or can I be seating any place I want? You're chosen ain't it teacher?
You misunderstand what the queen is. she is the Borg. She isnt the leader. This is made clear in her conversations with Data.
She says this and maybe she even believes it, but clearly she is different from regular drones, so it ultimately the contradicts the concept of a hive mind.
@@MrQuantumInc Even a "Hive" mind needs some form of Directing/Reproductive force. We see it all the time in nature.
And yet in subsequent appearances, the Queen clearly overrides the will of the rest of the Collective.
@@MrQuantumIncit doesn’t contradict the idea of a hive mind. It shows that even a hive mind needs a super-ego to provide a sense of self-awareness and to override basic instincts in favor of long term planning.
The Borg Kingdom from the Mirror Universe is so much more scary.
Specifically the Star Trek Online variant.
The Borg Collective is probably asking for help because of the Borg Kingdom.
I like the Control Borg.
The Borg Kingdom is basically the Borg that is well aware of resistance and knows that its capabilities might be countered so its more militeristic and far more dangerous as a result.
The Control Borg are actually weaker than the BORG and BORG Kingdom. However there drones do use separate weapons systems that are not integrated making them more flexible.
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent True, but considering the Control Borg, unlike the Kingdom, seem to have actually assimilated all 4 Quadrants of their Galaxy with the exception of a single Iconian Sphere, That's saying something.
@@Chokah Yep. The Control borg are unique in that regard. Likely due to the fact that the Control borg are essentially a grey goo situation. At some point they made contact with that universes borg and became the Control Borg then spread out like a virus. Interestingly unlike the Borg Kingdom and traditional Borg the Control Borg appears to be more willing to converse at its targets indicating more individuality in their collective, although they also make reference of organics being weak, so it doesn't appear the Control Borg is about perfection or uplifting of other species. If anything its just about them taking control of anything and everything.
So I guess that means the original BORG is about Unity and Perfection.
The BORG Kingdom is Militant and Conquest.
The Control BORG is the Virus and Control.
So what are the Atherians?
I don't trust them and the Borg Kingdom appears to know something about them to the point the kingdom was willing to negotiate a alliance with the Terran Empire.
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent Oh I've been wondering about them as well. The way they focus so MUCH on "Unity" and yet we've so far ONLY met Aetherians from their Universe, no sign of any other races...You'd think making First Contact across Universes, you'd pick a member of a race you're talking to, IF you have any...
The spoiler warning graphic was awesome. Nice touch
1:50 Rick Face Reveal?
I thought he’d be older 😅
@@smithkurtid Yeah, I thought that about Dan(?) from Dead Good Walks until I finally saw his face the other day. 🙂
I think Shaws anger at Picard and his reaction to him in the holodeck in Picard season3 made them scary again.
I never understood how the transporter code was never caught in a routine maintenance. Especially when Dr. Crusher caught the Borg codes in Picard when they were examining him together on the _Enterprise_ . You would also think that Starfleet would be tired of getting hacked and/or assimilated, and have protocols against both situations. But then I guess the plot couldn't happen if that was true. Unfortunate that the last gasp of _Picard_ as a series was one long series of 'because the plot says so.'
Interesting that _STO_ gave us two answers to making the Borg a credible threat again. Well, three: they could assimilate whole planets and even the Undine; redoing the Battle of Wolf 359 via simulation, and the different, multiversal versions of the Borg recently encountered.
I don't remember the STO regular borg ever being able to do anything to the Undine still, the Mirror Borg could. Tho Mirror Borg/Borg Kingdom in STO are absolutely cracked in terms of power, if your player character wasn't basically space jesus, then basically every power left in the galaxy would be already done. Tho in STO's context and hindsight, most of these galaxy crisis usually involve some alternate version of Tasha Yar or Sela, especially after the last major release that effectively involved alternate versions of both in the same room
@@Trent957 There was a bit of a storyline before the Iconian War broke out where we needed to stop a Cube from getting back to the rest of the Collective by destroying it, precisely because they'd assimilated an Undine.
It would be possible, but you would have to corrupt not just a bunch of transporters but the master copy of the blueprints and source code, and much of the organizations that develop this technology and enforce standardization. Though I would agree with you that it seems unlikely with the Federation. It seems unlikely for them to all maintain silence and look the other way when their co-workers and bosses start behaving suspiciously.
@@MrQuantumInc And it all goes out the window if a diligent maintenance crew on some random ship finds the codes, and then reports it to their colleagues. I imagine of Nog's _Chimera_ were around, not only would they have stopped the code, but they'd have found the rogue Changelings and worked out a trick to trap them before they could even begin to launch their plan. Nog was very smart and ambitious as a Starfleet officer, and I miss him. His exclusion from all recent missions still hurts. Can't even talk to him at DS9.
I can imagine all the splinter Borg communities from Janeway and Picard's involvements will essentially unify under Doctor Jurati who acts as the Queen of all those saved from the Borg but cannot live without a 'collective' and the trauma doing so can bring. Being part of something bigger and cooperative and then eventually becoming another member of the Federation, or otherwise living the rest of their organic lives until they die off (as they wont be assimilating new people against their will).
This was excellent. Thank you for such a great and straight to the point explanation. There was bits of info I needed that I did not put together on how the Queen kept surviving. Kudos!
As the army of the undead, something similar will eventually return. But I consider Q's long term planning to have been succesfull.
I subscribe to the fan theory, that the
Borg didn't just assimilate but cultivate civilizations. Each incursion into Federation space was like knocking over an ant hill. Come back in a while, and it's rebuilt better than before.
Prod the UFP to improve then come back to reap the rewards? Risky but makes sense.
I think one of the main arguments against that idea is the First Contact movie.
Why would the Borg "cultivate" the Federation and then try to time travel to remove the Federation suddenly?
Surely they could just attack with a fleet of Cubes if they thought the Federation had grown too powerful and they wanted to harvest tech and biological "distinctiveness" from the Federation and its member races.
I do agree its the best explanation overall for why the Borg don't just dump a few hundred Cubes straight on Earth instead of sending single Cubes at Earth every few years, especially given Voyager's confirmation that the Borg Trans-warp network can dump ships on top of Earth at will. That said I question why the whole plot of First Contact happened like it did if that was the Borg's true objectives.
@CertifiablyIngame Yes, exactly. Risky? Maybe. The character Arcturis from Species 116 stated that Borg probed his species weaknesses for centuries. When the Borg finally came, they surrounded his star system with hundreds of cube. The UFP only experienced one cube at a time.
@@NATIK001 I actually think the Borg used time travel to attempt to assimilate Earth in the past as a contingency plan in their ongoing conflict with Species 8472. This video overlooks that fact, but timeline wise, it makes sense that the Borg were already fighting and losing a war to 8472 during the movie First contact. Basically, the threat of 8472 was so extreme to the Collective that the Queen was willing to throw away the technological gains the Collective would have gotten by assimilating Earth in the present to instead establish a new foothold in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant by assimilating it in the past, giving them more territory and time to attempt to adapt to 8472.
@@colresswesker8912I see you watch venomgeek98, as well.
I never understood how a much older tech ship was able to defeat a future Borg ship when essentially they should've been able to adapt easily to everything that they had to throw at the Borg.
This story was very well written
I wodered how jacked they were after admiral janeway. It seemed like the did strike the cirppling blow.
I've finally discovered where the Jurati Borg fit in the story, awesome vid!
The Borg Cooperative was one of the powers behind the Temporal Treaty in the 29th Century. It is likely that the Borg of the Cooperative and the other Borg Unions Hhve become Nomadic while maintaining some base colonies for various reasons. Unlike Collective, being part of the Borg Unions is voluntary. Oddly one of main reasons why the Borg had survived was due to a lot of races assimilated did mind being part of a Hive structure as long as they were able to maintain individuality.
They really overexposed the BORG and completely ruined it in VOY. Having a queen is ok as first among equal but making her illogical and basically a plotting human is stupid. The BORG is a force of nature, dumb them down to basically zombies was just stupid
I headcanon that the Borg have been through multiple cycles of rise and fall. Guinan mentioned that they have been around for thousands of centuries. The Picard series is just another downturn that the Borg will rise up from again.
It's interesting that if you include the apocrypha that is the Trek Novel serieses, the Borg aren't the first hive mind in the setting...I seem to recall at least one novel involving a linked collective, though that was a linked set of individuals (more in the style that is exemplified by Mars in the 'Miracle of Science' webcomic) rather than one that removed individuality. To be honest, I would have loved to have seen something like that pop up in Trek as a counter-point to the Borg we got. ("You call that a hive-mind? *This* is a hive-mind, you boring saps!").
Like horror movie villains. The more you see of them the less scary they are. After Best of Both Worlds the Borg always felt less threatening.
It would be cool if future large scale interactions with the current Borg are as friends, maybe even one of the benign factions becoming an official Federation Member, greatly bolstering the Federation as a whole. Imagine if the Federation had a friendly borg enclave allied with it during the Dominion War? Such an alliance could have steamrolled the Dominion Forces, sending survivors fleeing from the Alpha Quadrant with their tails between their legs.
Picards Podium, Sisko's Pimp hand and Janeways Mallet, need to be special items in STO. 😁
"You can't outrun them. You can't destroy them. If you damage them the essence of what they are remains. They regenerate and keep coming. Eventually you will weaken, your reserves will be gone. They are relentless!"
I always liked that the origin of the Borg was never explained. They were always better as this nebulous, persistent threat, like a natural disaster. However, I always imagined their origin as one of those "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" stories.
One of the best villains in fiction. They hit two fundamental fears at the same time, because they were space zombies who were also more intelligent and advanced than the heroes. The best advantage the heroes had was that they were so far beneath the Borg that they weren't considered a threat.
I'm reminded of the Cybermen from Doctor Who. They *started* as a survival method on a dying world. And then to quote a certain sidekick from Quantum Leap, 'Things went a little ca-ca'.
I dream of the Borg being reintroduced as terrifying horror-type villains.
I prefer the book-canon's solution to the Borg--re-admit them into the far more powerful group mind they were originally separated from in the distant past. Far better to prevent the Borg from _wanting_ to assimilate instead of killing every single one of them to prevent them from doing so. Shame about Risa though...
A good comprehensive history. My only complaint is you made me remember ST: Picard is a thing.
I would love a film trilogy where the movers ST Destiny gets adapted
“Janeway happened.” Nice!
I think they should adapt and become more sentient connection through time making the Borg Emperor do a story with collective.
Disappointed by the Borg's seeming destruction by Janeway as shown in Picard. Feel like THEY of all antagonists could not possibly be undone by such meager time travel shenanigans. Not when the Borg Queen is first introduced by tut tutting Picard about thinking so 3 dimensionally. Like yeah if the Doctor showed up in a Tardis and took them out from all of time, sure. That's a temporal supernova. Janeway was a minor cold in comparison and it was quite underwhelming all things considered. I guess the writers figured the Borg were just too big a threat to just have out there at full strength.
1:53 I honestly wasn't expecting a face reveal. Never thought it would happen.😅
Hello. All. Rick. Here. That must have been difficult to say. It sounded difficult. Were you doing deadlifts or something? 🤣🤣🤣
Haha! I didn’t notice but I went back and listened. Too funny!!!
Plot Armor...The Borg are Destroyed by Plot Armor and overuse😅
Like all big bads in fiction, they're a lot scarier the less the audience knows.
The one time they were mentioned in Discovery they seemed like allies of the federation now.
“Resistance is never futile.” Such a great video 💃🌻🕺
Thanks for sharing 👍 and Merry Christmas to you and your family 😊
"Undone by the tools of her own making."
As others have said, I think you meant bad writing and overuse. 😂 It's hard to be the "mysterious" big baddy of the setting when the writers of Picard default to them as the main antagonist almost every time.
Honestly, I think they would have stopped being scary over time regardless- a mysterious foe will never stay mysterious forever in a series all about exploring the unknown and figuring out the mysteries of the universe.
@CollinBuckman True. And to your point I would have preferred waiting until Starfleet at least started exploring the Delta Quantrant more to finally unravel the mystery of what happened to the Borg after Janeway. Some of the later shows make the Borg seem almost obsessed with humanity (or vice-versa). I.e. Picard where the Borg were the primary focus for two full seasons (with the third season hardly acknowledging the events and the borg factions of the second season at all.)
This store is very well writing
The borg is popular...which means for as long as new Star Trek series are being developed there's always a chance they'll come back in some shape or form.
The way they treated the Borg is a disgrace. This is why we can’t have nice things. Every single race in Star Trek is some variant on being human.. nothing is truly alien. Hey the Borg are much more advanced..no problem, modulate your shields or something….
Good stuff as always.
The fall of the Borg is not dissimilar to when you're playing a real time strategy game and your opponent makes a death ball of units that blob up and just walk right through your forces but through careful tactical game play, positioning and general counter play, you can still whittle down the blob until it's more manageable or even defeat it outright.
I can't wait until Borg 2 comes out.
I still hope the Queen we saw in S3 of Picard was just a sickly, disconnected survivor, who'd gone mad with the disease and isolation. There was a sphere that assimilated the pathogen, could have been others that dwhotoo who have their new queen and are recovering in the Delta Quadrant.
Thank you Rick
1st time you here "we are the Borg" it's ya and then it's Ohhh crap... At the end it's Borg BRING it we ain't scared of you no more...
In case one hadn't noticed, Voyager spent considerable time and effort hyping Janeway up while attempting to address her numerous mistakes and criticisms. Some characters, notably Chakotay, ended up being glorified yes men because contradicting her was simply not allowed. First female captain *cannot fail*.
And Janeway's greatest sin, aside from maybe stranding Voyager in the first place, was negotiating with the Borg. There were many episodes devoted to unf-ing the mess caused by that, but ultimately the writers concluded the best thing to do was have an alternate version of Janeway commit genocide to clean up her mess. No Borg, no problem!
Good breakdown
Wait, is this first time I got to see Certifiably Ingame? During a Starfleet Command sponsorship?
Janeway: a nightmare for the temporal prime directive and to all Borg Queens
When you start to get into the Picard series era lore it's just an absolute mess. What an embarrassment.
If there is even a single borg ship that was cut off sonewhere, all that needs to happen is someone randomly messing with it and it could reactivate and create a new queen. I wouldnt count the borg out.
I was under the idea that the queen is a physical representation of the hive mind, but that her core is a massive device off in space some where, so what we see isn't what she is/was, in fact you can't get rid of it without first destroying that ship/station/core/building thing. so getting rid of the transwarp nexus only affects the borgs ability to get to the core. but the core is safe and sound elsewhere. this means that of the remaining borg, there is still the classic villain borg out there somewhere. oh, and I doubt it is considered canon but one of the shatner star trek books with kirk has kirk survive on a borg trash planet and meet up with disconnected borg survivors so those guys are technically alive and well too. they removed their implants and replaced them with organic parts from other bodys resulting in a frakenstein/patchwork-zombie look, and of course kirk is intimate with one of their female zombie girls, so there might be a kirk borg son/daughter out there somewhere, along with a klingon romulan kirk baby as well. the books are worth a read by the way.
Good to see a great content provider get a bit of cash.🍷🍷🍷
I don't consider Secret Hideout to be canon, so that leaves me with Star Trek Online... In which the Borg are pretty much harmless if you're a Fleet Admiral. I enjoy playing the Battle of Wolf 359, where our team's collective OP weaponry would annihilate the cube in seconds if it didn't have plot armour 😆
Who's the most dangerous Starfleet captain to cross? Kirk? Sisko? Jelico? Hell no, we all know it's Kathryn "just-give-her-a-reason" Janeway.
The Borg are a hive made of countless minds, they can assimilate memories. Yet, not understand the motivations or drives of the individual. Their willing ignorance is what lead to their defeat.
It’s a shame that the Borg hive mind became so dependent on the Queens as the shows went on. I would’ve thought that a core strength (& therefore a terrifying aspect of) the Collective would be the sheer inertia of the hive mind in maintaining its will, no matter how fractured (in other words, the power of decentralization).
As we’ve seen in the past, disconnected Borg can form their own “mini hive minds”, and for those that spent their whole lives as part of the Collective, their “addiction”/“need” to join a Collective would naturally compel them to form new ones even when fully severed from the main hive. (Whether via reconnecting with nearby drones, or assimilating new drones.)
This way, the Borg would be less a monolith that can be defeated by hitting its foundation (ie the Queen), and more like a weed or virus that can’t be fully stomped out even after killing 99.9% of the drones.
Big missed opportunity. :/
“It was Voyager, [BLEEP] got weird!”
Unpopular opinion ST Piccard ruined the Borg and made a mockery of everything that came before.
That's not crazy. The Jurati borg was dumb. I did like season's 3 attempt to make the remnant of the collective that Janeway destroyed rallying with remnants of the changelings who had a beef. It wasn't executed great but I appreciated the attempt.
Another great video but can you make a video about the enterprise XCV 330
Time travel tropes are always, "Bring more firepower, attack sooner." Why aren't they ever, "Go back in time, send a message to past self, "Turn around, run away."
Didn't they essentially do that in Strange New Worlds? Future Pike meets with Past Pike and says, "If you do the thing, Spock's gonna die." (Or something to that effect).
im thinking borg as they where in star trek TNG started off with one race that developed the inplant tech and at first inplants where volontary then after a time they started to force people to use inplants maybe after the first basic collective was created
With all that, I have to wonder if STO will have to redo parts of the game, because it shows the Borg returning in 2409. However, I read in a Next Gen novel titled Star Trek Resistance, by J.M. Dillard, about something that could make the Borg a threat again. (Spoiler Alert) In the novel, Picard and the Enterprise-E learn that the Borg were converting a drone into a new queen. This does make a bit of sense, since bees make a new queen for their hive when the old queen either dies, goes missing, or grows too old. Perhaps something similar could make the Borg a renewed threat again. Same old Borg, but under "new management," so to speak.
The Borg used to be the greatest enemy of all time and over time they were completely ruined.
Lower Decks shows that in the future, some Borg faction JOIN the federation
The borg were scary because they could think/act as fast as machines, they had the collective knowledge of thousands of planets, and they ADAPTED very quickly to whatever what thrown at them. So in theory, if they were shot, the second shot wouldn't work on any of their ships, etc. But that made them TOO OP so they were nerfed and beaten.
In my opinion their true strange weaknesses was how they would assimilate people. They would just hogpog parts onto a person and call it good. They could have used the genetic/organic information from all those worlds to create organic super entities, with a perfect machine integration. Constantly improving, faster, smarter, more adaptive, etc. But they went for "hogpog jerry rigged army" instead. Also their tech was the same. Their ships were only "good enough" instead of a pursuit to create "perfect ultra advanced technology" in all their ships. True this has it's advantages, but an entity always improving is WAY scarier than one with countless half assed abominations. Just my thoughts.
I kind of wonder whether the Changelings would be like the Undine to the Borg & impossible to be assimilate.
Unrelated, but I'm pretty sure the culture named a GSV Resistance is Character Forming.
Imaging how different things would be if the borg had been smart enough to create a planet of infinite coffee as a bribe?
Borg should voyager and spilled Janeways coffee.
Nobody spills Janeways coffee!
"One thing's for certain, though: the Borg Collective is dead."
Until an episode writer on some show set post-Picard decides they survived, anyway.
Please do a recap of the Destiny trilogy.
The Borg queen basically became My Little Pony's Queen Chrysalis. The irony when Chrysalis and her hive took inspiration from the Borg.
The Confederation crushed them (off screen of course)...
Never get between Janeway and her coffee for she would resort to time travelling to do so
the unimatrix at the end of voyager was disconnected and the Borg continued as normal.