organ as in musical instruments they were used in combat and play music at the same time to intimidate their enemies (as much as I know it was actually used by Ottomans)
So it's an overpriced hand cannoneer for a civ with already good hand cannoneers. Got it. And it's getting balanced around that role, instead of actually fixing the unit to accomplish it's intended and listed purpose. Great. God damn. Did someone on the dev team get mugged by a Portuguese guy or something? This broken hunk of junk, the Feitoria nerf...
Good point man but at least it's still a strong late game and naval civ. If you really want to see a screwed civ look a the Magyars. Weak early and late game. Never seen a civ this crappy. It's like a personal vendetta or something. But yeah the Organ Gun is quite useless.
+Apple Aya What do you mean? Magyars have a strong scout rush with free forging, knights eith free iron casting, fully upgraded paladins, arbalest, fully upgraded cavalry archers with more range, and the best trash unit in the game. How can you call them bad in the late game? They even get the extra LOS on archers, which helps out an archer rush too.
Haha, what? Kickass scout rush early-game, great knight rush mid-game. Only civ in the game to get both FU arbs and FU paladins, and THE best trash in the game, besides MAYBE turkish genitours. Even have all the eco techs besides guilds (who cares?) and stone shaft mining. Magyars are good, real good.
I would think one way to fix it is to make the scatter shots deal half the damage of the main one. Sort of like how a scorpion operates. But focused in a curve rather than a straight line. I would think it's base attack would have to be slightly reduced. I would think 10 for the base version and 12 for the elite sounds reasonable. Maybe also that the normal fires 3 extra shots and the elite fires 4. The attack increase might be small but it increases the damage output for every shot. That means the damage output goes from 25 to 36. 36 attack might sound overly high but armor can really bite into that. A champion with just 2 blacksmith armor upgrades takes 24 damage from an elite and that is even disregarding their low accuracy.
hey man, I just wanted to let you know that you have reignited my love for this game. I played as a kid to the point it was a problem, but I had forgotten about it with time. anyway I just wanted to take advantage of the upload to let you know that I really love your videos and would love to play one with you sometime!
i kinda skipped aoe2. played a lot more aoe1. but yeah thanks to him this is all i play now. i can't believe i didn't get more into this game. it's so awesome. must have been because hidden bonuses suck. they should all be clearly visible in-game. have to fish for information your enemy probably already takes for granted is kind of anti-newbies. very unfriendly learning curve.
Hi Spirit, just to let you know, I think your post production editing to include numbers. stats and comments pasted near the units on screen is just fantastic! So helpful and a brilliant signature compared to other channels.
I noticed that when you compared the accuracy of gunpowder units you didn't seem to take Arquebus (Imperial UT) into account at all. Something to amend in the Portuguese overview.
SOTL I love your intro (and all it's variations) but I just gotta mention that it has the perfect length to be skipped with 4 taps on the right arrow key! Strangely satisfying!
good to have you back! you make amazing videos and its really fun to watch, hope you will get more time and option to make more of these videos, what thing i want to point out , though they do counter skirms (taking 1 damage per shot) , fully upgraded arblest takes them effective (doing 4 damage per shot) , and shoot from distnce with 100% accurcy , and the longbowman kickass :D
Hey Spirit, I got an idea for a video. I found out that you only need 11-12 arambai garrisoned in a castle to make it fire 20 arrows, which is the maximum. I found it to be extremely overpowered. If you could calculate the dmg from the castle vs ungarrisoned units combined etc, it could make for a very interesting video. :)
I feel like what they should've done with the organ gun was to decrease the main projectile's damage, like 12 in castle, and 16/18 with the elite upgrade, but then have the other 4 pellets do half the damage of the main one, so 6 in castle and 8/9 in imp, and they can be dampened by armor upgrades. that way, it'd actually perform a role of crowd control that works more like the onager line, but at the strength of a scorpion. Maybe in mass they'd be broken, but they'd definitely be counterable. in imp, fully upgraded paladins have 7 pierce armor and hussars have 6, so overall, they'd be much weaker against cav, while being stronger against infantry and archers in large fights
which is a unit rarely used* Mr. Tatoh used it in a recent game of the King of the Desert series and won partly thanks to it. So even in high level play it IS used, its just uncommon. Although after this video... fuck organ guns I ain't using this garbage bin.
Lol, I remember a game VERY early around release that I played with you. I can't remember what colour I was but my username was Lightning_strike97, and I played portugese. Tried to mix skirms and pike line with a mass of organ guns, and you tried to counter the guns sith skirmishers. At first I was worried but the organs just shredded your skirmishers. :D Felt good
the good thing about yous videos is that you explain perfectly every detail of every unit.... ... the bad thing... now I think most of my favourite unit suck
Hello so i'am kinda of a noob to aoe2 but i've played it since my childhood abd got back to it because of your videos and i thought i'd beat the AI on extreme but it looks like alot has changed. I was wondering if you could make a video on how to do it or maybe showing us what it does because it seems to age up so fast and reach castle age while i'am still working on economy. I love the content and i loved the fact that this game is alive and well, hopefuly i'll binge watch all your videos in these upcoming days!
I think I've cracked the Siege Engineers tech. It seems to multiply the building bonus damage by 1.2. Since organ guns -do not fire actual organs- have +0 against buildings to begin with, they do +0 after that bonus.
Woo, a new Video from law, made my day Always glad to hear your relaxing voice and still learn something about a game I love! Greetings from Germany. Keep it up :)
I'd like to see a video about buildings layout like how to place farms around a mill; walls and towers(with tower rush) and general city layout tips. I think it would make a fine idea for another episode...
How do scorpions do in general? I only play with my friends (meaning none of us know the meta, and we don't really care about being competitive), but we've usually neglected them in favor of siege onagers.
in general it would seem scorpions work best in large groups and in narrow choke points where they can get the most value out of their straight line splash damage. and they do particularly well against infantry or most archers while being softcountered by cavalry and hard countered by mangonels/onagers which you will often see even without scorpions being made as they do well against plenty of other things.
Whaat, I first thought this is going to be some awesome Warhammer Mod, featuring the Organ Gun of the Dwarfs. As an oldie aos fan I haven't played the expansions yet, didn't know this unit actually existed in the game
Finally another math/unit video! I had a hard time as Jap against Portuguese. Trebs and Onagers was my choice, though I hadn't thought on Rams as "wood" shield, that's a good one! Neither on Scorpions. Can you make a video about Malay's Harbor and eternal Fish traps?
spirit you forgot one important thing the special tech of the portugese arkebuse that enables gunpowder units to profit from ballistik what makes them a lot more dangerous
Hey, Spirit. Long time watcher: Have you considered doing a video on the organization of troops commands? What is the *real* most effective formation vs calvary, etc?
Have you considered a more in-depth analysis of when to get organ gun over scorpion? Cost for cost, which wins against infantry? cavalry? archers? siege? Is it different if you are facing small or large groups? How many damage soaking halberdiers is that extra hp and armour on the organ gun worth?
yeah i remember i liked the portuguese the best in aoe3 too, and i remember the organ gun being a major reason for that. i think the other reason was their shipments or something
One should mention that the Age of Empires 3 Portugese Organ Gun is quite good, whilst also having a different firing style. Kinda makes you wonder if we might get an AoE3 video soon enough :)
This is great Spirit, it really is. But being a bit of a noob, and someone who likes to build economy up first; can you give me a really in depth guide on how to build my economy from start to the age up to castle age? Please??
So essentially, they are crappy and pointless? Good tip. I don't understand why the spray attack doesn't deal at least half damage with each projectile.
Well then why don't they only spray 4 pellets? Also they could decrease the initial damage from 20 to 16. Having good spray damage, with the _potential_ to do really well in certain circumstances, is better than just being a very slow tanky Janissary.
They don't have a real counter, if you try to mass up cavalry, your opponent will just put pikemen in front of his organ guns and decimate your cavalry. If you try with siege, your enemy will get bombard canons. Trying with range is out of the question. Meanwhile the organ guns will decimate your army faster than any other range. Priests are rather good against them if your enemy doesn't micro them. And they do rather good damage to buildings in practise, unlike what Spiritofthelaw said.
You missed out big time unfortunately on the fact that Arbalest and HCA's (and other archer units probably) beat Oragan Guns, Halbs, and Bombard Cannons. Organ Guns have good pierce armor but like you pointed out their damage output is greatly reduced at distance. Other gunpowder units are likewise vulnerable to archer units.
hello, Spirit, id like some footage as with halberdier/spearmen/kamayuks at the engame. Vs other spear and vs paladins. And vs Boyars (no need of cataphractoi, the outcome is obv). I think you are the best placed to make a proper video explaining it all. Of course consider only civ with bonus that affects them. such as aztecs or franks for the paladins.
It is a ribaudequin. Рибадекин is a term that describes any artillery with multiple canons on it. The english have the word organ guns for it, I'm not sure where that's from.
idk if expressing upgrades in terms of percentage is the best way of representing them. Yes 6 is 50% more than 4, but in AoE2 I think numbers are thought of more as flat.
"Hey guys, spirit of the law here" *instant happiness*
spirt of the siege tower^^
True
*happiness noises*
Same, and I don’t even play aoe
Poor siege tower, at least you made it out of scenario editor.
But it can't shoot arrows anymore.
I don't understand, why they made it so useless
have you never felt the need to drive a helpless wodden platform across the whole map to do something a handful of rams can do?
im so proud, atleast its usefull on arena matches.. sometimes..
its still useful for biper challenge 11
One siege tower disliked this video
now it's 12 siege towers, lol. 😂
The unlucky 13 siege towers now xD
Don't worry, made it to 14
The Siege tower revolution is beginning !
79 now
I dont play AoE from 2-3 years but watching your videos makes me wanna play it so much again!
>Organ gun
>isn't made out of actual live organs
Really activates your almonds huh?
the throwing axeman also does not throw axemen
son i am disappoint
You misunderstand, they're axemen who throw
the game, when they're tilted.
You just went full petard.
organ as in musical instruments they were used in combat and play music at the same time to intimidate their enemies (as much as I know it was actually used by Ottomans)
But do they shoot organs?
1:04
You had a problem here; Janissaries are never seen with their normal 35 HP or 40 HP because of the Turks' HP bonus increasing it to 44 or 50
what if u convert 1 will it keep its hp bonus ?
yes
flowplayer yes, converted unit bonuses stack together
+flowplayer
Spirit of the Law himself actually made a video addressing this called something like 'Do converted units keep their stats?'
Doesn't that disappear if you play on 'all techs'?
Finally an upload
wow this comment is really on point
Lol yeah I love law's content and if u see this law pls make a vid on how to play multiplayer on AOE 1 rise of rome expansion
agrreed
Nathan McCue You can use the Gameranger online service
I have no idea why this was on my recommended videos and am now fascinated with the community I've stumbled into.
Spirit delivering top quality content as always!
So it's an overpriced hand cannoneer for a civ with already good hand cannoneers. Got it.
And it's getting balanced around that role, instead of actually fixing the unit to accomplish it's intended and listed purpose. Great.
God damn. Did someone on the dev team get mugged by a Portuguese guy or something? This broken hunk of junk, the Feitoria nerf...
Good point man but at least it's still a strong late game and naval civ. If you really want to see a screwed civ look a the Magyars. Weak early and late game. Never seen a civ this crappy. It's like a personal vendetta or something.
But yeah the Organ Gun is quite useless.
+Apple Aya What do you mean? Magyars have a strong scout rush with free forging, knights eith free iron casting, fully upgraded paladins, arbalest, fully upgraded cavalry archers with more range, and the best trash unit in the game. How can you call them bad in the late game? They even get the extra LOS on archers, which helps out an archer rush too.
Haha, what? Kickass scout rush early-game, great knight rush mid-game. Only civ in the game to get both FU arbs and FU paladins, and THE best trash in the game, besides MAYBE turkish genitours. Even have all the eco techs besides guilds (who cares?) and stone shaft mining. Magyars are good, real good.
Apple Aya i think you misspelled Vietnamese there
I would think one way to fix it is to make the scatter shots deal half the damage of the main one. Sort of like how a scorpion operates. But focused in a curve rather than a straight line. I would think it's base attack would have to be slightly reduced. I would think 10 for the base version and 12 for the elite sounds reasonable. Maybe also that the normal fires 3 extra shots and the elite fires 4. The attack increase might be small but it increases the damage output for every shot. That means the damage output goes from 25 to 36.
36 attack might sound overly high but armor can really bite into that. A champion with just 2 blacksmith armor upgrades takes 24 damage from an elite and that is even disregarding their low accuracy.
Amazing! 7 years later your videos continue to be so awesome! Quality stands well against time
Siege tower overview next?
Even though they're worthless.
Please more civ overviews master.
Only when the master is ready!
THIS was the video i had randomly recommended to me like 2 years ago that got me into this awesome game. thank you so much sprit!
hey man, I just wanted to let you know that you have reignited my love for this game. I played as a kid to the point it was a problem, but I had forgotten about it with time. anyway I just wanted to take advantage of the upload to let you know that I really love your videos and would love to play one with you sometime!
i kinda skipped aoe2. played a lot more aoe1. but yeah thanks to him this is all i play now. i can't believe i didn't get more into this game. it's so awesome. must have been because hidden bonuses suck. they should all be clearly visible in-game. have to fish for information your enemy probably already takes for granted is kind of anti-newbies. very unfriendly learning curve.
#metoo
YEAY AN UPLOAD. Finaly the coolest Introsong in TH-cam strikes again
I was worried you gave up making these videos, but just the day after you proved me wrong!
Thanks for interesting video, and keep making 'em!
Hi Spirit, just to let you know, I think your post production editing to include numbers. stats and comments pasted near the units on screen is just fantastic! So helpful and a brilliant signature compared to other channels.
Poor siegetower
Why poor, its the absolute top on Arena lame :-D.
So true
Poor design
I noticed that when you compared the accuracy of gunpowder units you didn't seem to take Arquebus (Imperial UT) into account at all. Something to amend in the Portuguese overview.
Civ overviews for Rise of The Rajas civs please!
indeed, these are not vids we deserve, but these are vids we need.
I doubt we'll get that any time soon. Spirit's probably going to go through African Kingdoms first.
SOTL I love your intro (and all it's variations) but I just gotta mention that it has the perfect length to be skipped with 4 taps on the right arrow key! Strangely satisfying!
lol I think you can just press L twice if you're looking to halve your number of keystrokes ;)
Wow I didnt even know that L skips 10 secs. Efficient :D
Man, a lot of great TH-camrs uoad infrequently, but a Spirit of the Law video is a real treat
good to have you back! you make amazing videos and its really fun to watch, hope you will get more time and option to make more of these videos, what thing i want to point out , though they do counter skirms (taking 1 damage per shot) , fully upgraded arblest takes them effective (doing 4 damage per shot) , and shoot from distnce with 100% accurcy , and the longbowman kickass :D
"Piano cannon"
Pan Pipe Gun
A unit I never looked deep into, but always wondered about. Thanks for the video!
You could use the siege tower garnison ability to drop infantery ontop of the Organ guns
Guess whos back. Back again. Spirits back. Back again.
no like this
Guess who's Back, Back Again, Spirits Back, Tell A Friend
Glad to see you're not dead!
Hey SpotL! Your video is part of AoE wiki congrats dude and keep your quality!
Hey Spirit, I got an idea for a video. I found out that you only need 11-12 arambai garrisoned in a castle to make it fire 20 arrows, which is the maximum. I found it to be extremely overpowered. If you could calculate the dmg from the castle vs ungarrisoned units combined etc, it could make for a very interesting video. :)
was going to sleep until this video showed up
maistromann First thing I saw after waking up xd
feeling.. awesome always when I see a new upload ..... its like I am not alone playing this
I feel like what they should've done with the organ gun was to decrease the main projectile's damage, like 12 in castle, and 16/18 with the elite upgrade, but then have the other 4 pellets do half the damage of the main one, so 6 in castle and 8/9 in imp, and they can be dampened by armor upgrades. that way, it'd actually perform a role of crowd control that works more like the onager line, but at the strength of a scorpion. Maybe in mass they'd be broken, but they'd definitely be counterable. in imp, fully upgraded paladins have 7 pierce armor and hussars have 6, so overall, they'd be much weaker against cav, while being stronger against infantry and archers in large fights
wow !! spirit is back.. plz make videos regularly .. we love u
A 7 minute video about a single unique unit. I got to watch it.
Great content in general I used to play this game when I was younger and started playing it again and now I'm a lot better. Good work!
a unit, thats worse than scorpion, which is a unit nobody uses, because it fits such a small role XD
L L organ gun + infantry is super op
which is a unit rarely used*
Mr. Tatoh used it in a recent game of the King of the Desert series and won partly thanks to it. So even in high level play it IS used, its just uncommon.
Although after this video... fuck organ guns I ain't using this garbage bin.
Fatslob says hi.
This channel reminds me of CGP Grey. It uploads so infrequently now, but when a new video comes out, I drop whatever I'm doing and watch it.
Still one of the few ranged unique units that can protect a castle from rams
Lol, I remember a game VERY early around release that I played with you. I can't remember what colour I was but my username was Lightning_strike97, and I played portugese. Tried to mix skirms and pike line with a mass of organ guns, and you tried to counter the guns sith skirmishers. At first I was worried but the organs just shredded your skirmishers. :D Felt good
the good thing about yous videos is that you explain perfectly every detail of every unit....
... the bad thing... now I think most of my favourite unit suck
Hello so i'am kinda of a noob to aoe2 but i've played it since my childhood abd got back to it because of your videos and i thought i'd beat the AI on extreme but it looks like alot has changed.
I was wondering if you could make a video on how to do it or maybe showing us what it does because it seems to age up so fast and reach castle age while i'am still working on economy.
I love the content and i loved the fact that this game is alive and well, hopefuly i'll binge watch all your videos in these upcoming days!
I think I've cracked the Siege Engineers tech. It seems to multiply the building bonus damage by 1.2. Since organ guns -do not fire actual organs- have +0 against buildings to begin with, they do +0 after that bonus.
Woo, a new Video from law, made my day
Always glad to hear your relaxing voice and still learn something about a game I love!
Greetings from Germany.
Keep it up :)
Do you guys remember the Siege Tower that actually attacked pre-AK?
Probably not, because that one was Campaign only
Pls do African Kingdoms and Rise of the Rajas civ overviews. We are all looking for it!
I'd like to see a video about buildings layout like how to place farms around a mill; walls and towers(with tower rush) and general city layout tips. I think it would make a fine idea for another episode...
Good analysis! Regarding counters to the organ gun: Mangudai and Magyar Huszar get bonus vs them.
ive been waiting so long for a video, and when it does come out my internet goes down, R.I.P
finally a new video! I'm still waiting for gameplay with live commentary :)
Hey ! Welcome back ! It's been a long time
love it SOTL! I always look forward to your AOE videos!!!
How do scorpions do in general? I only play with my friends (meaning none of us know the meta, and we don't really care about being competitive), but we've usually neglected them in favor of siege onagers.
Watch his video on scorpions or siege
in general it would seem scorpions work best in large groups and in narrow choke points where they can get the most value out of their straight line splash damage. and they do particularly well against infantry or most archers while being softcountered by cavalry and hard countered by mangonels/onagers which you will often see even without scorpions being made as they do well against plenty of other things.
Whaat, I first thought this is going to be some awesome Warhammer Mod, featuring the Organ Gun of the Dwarfs. As an oldie aos fan I haven't played the expansions yet, didn't know this unit actually existed in the game
"They recently gone thru some changes"
And so they did again 6 years later, wheel of history rotate again!
Yeeaaah coz he's back! He's the maaan behind the mask! No but seriously, nice to see a new video from you, man. Good content as always :)
Finally another math/unit video!
I had a hard time as Jap against Portuguese. Trebs and Onagers was my choice, though I hadn't thought on Rams as "wood" shield, that's a good one! Neither on Scorpions.
Can you make a video about Malay's Harbor and eternal Fish traps?
Good to see Arambai in your video.
TH-cam knows me well. An SotL video taking up an entire row right up the top on my front page. :D
Haven't played the game in a while, and don't even own the expansion with these units, but I still enjoyed the video.
spirit you forgot one important thing the special tech of the portugese arkebuse that enables gunpowder units to profit from ballistik what makes them a lot more dangerous
You reminded me about those same guns in Medieval II. Useless but so fun
I don't think I've ever built a Siege Tower before...
i love your channel omg even if you never respond keep the great work up WE ALL LOVE YOU AND YOUR WORK
Hey, Spirit. Long time watcher: Have you considered doing a video on the organization of troops commands? What is the *real* most effective formation vs calvary, etc?
Have you considered a more in-depth analysis of when to get organ gun over scorpion?
Cost for cost, which wins against infantry? cavalry? archers? siege? Is it different if you are facing small or large groups?
How many damage soaking halberdiers is that extra hp and armour on the organ gun worth?
Arquebus also took a fairly heavy nerf as well.
where have you been ? whatever finally spirit of law back :)
FINALLY MORE UPLOADS
Okay. If that -> --2:28--
Yess and soon Spanish and Byzantines as well ;)
I miss you a lot, Spirit of the Law 😂😂😂
Organ guns are what made Portuguese my favourite civ in AoE3
caphalor08 yes every other European civ only has arquebus as anti siege/infantry while Port has a whooping Organ gun!!!
yeah i remember i liked the portuguese the best in aoe3 too, and i remember the organ gun being a major reason for that. i think the other reason was their shipments or something
Almost thought it was similiar like organ gun from AoE 3 from USA Civ.
When i heard AoE was getting an HD expansion i didn't expect new units
Organ guns saved from cavalry (Spanish Paladins in a forest, where cavalry had not many clean paths).
1:35 ¿All gunpowder units require chemistry? What about conquistadores and janissaries?
Can you make a vid monks vs missionaries?
We missed you
you've slowed down sir, been a long while between videos.
loved this one, looking forward to the next one.
One should mention that the Age of Empires 3 Portugese Organ Gun is quite good, whilst also having a different firing style. Kinda makes you wonder if we might get an AoE3 video soon enough :)
6:53 Battering ram to the bunghole. That ain't right.
60 Organ guns + 6 bombard cannons + 4 onagers.... ftw
if you set to produce unit in castle it will hold them but if you take them out, no more garrison
Organ Guns are also very well countered by Magyar Huzsar, thanks they are counted as siege too, not only Condottiero counters them :-). 1:43
Where were you? We missed you all the time :-(
Seeing the Organ Gun, all I can think of is... Makin’ my way downtown~
This is great Spirit, it really is. But being a bit of a noob, and someone who likes to build economy up first; can you give me a really in depth guide on how to build my economy from start to the age up to castle age? Please??
Did you consider that Organ Guns get affected by Arquebus, unlike Scorpions that do not get affected by Ballistics? That's a big upside in my opinion.
They're still shit though.
What's the music 2:20 - 4:25
My question is do Magyar Huszars do bonus damage to them???
Yes for they count as Siege units
So essentially, they are crappy and pointless?
Good tip.
I don't understand why the spray attack doesn't deal at least half damage with each projectile.
Tocaraca bc they spray 6 pellets would be too op if each deal half damage
Well then why don't they only spray 4 pellets?
Also they could decrease the initial damage from 20 to 16. Having good spray damage, with the _potential_ to do really well in certain circumstances, is better than just being a very slow tanky Janissary.
They don't have a real counter, if you try to mass up cavalry, your opponent will just put pikemen in front of his organ guns and decimate your cavalry. If you try with siege, your enemy will get bombard canons. Trying with range is out of the question. Meanwhile the organ guns will decimate your army faster than any other range. Priests are rather good against them if your enemy doesn't micro them. And they do rather good damage to buildings in practise, unlike what Spiritofthelaw said.
just when you think he's gone, he comes back. :D
What a cool unit! Scorpion-like splash damage would be awesome, but it might make it too powerful, perhaps?
Arembai are not a gunpowder unit.😐 they throw small spears with feathers, or something.
You missed out big time unfortunately on the fact that Arbalest and HCA's (and other archer units probably) beat Oragan Guns, Halbs, and Bombard Cannons. Organ Guns have good pierce armor but like you pointed out their damage output is greatly reduced at distance. Other gunpowder units are likewise vulnerable to archer units.
hello, Spirit, id like some footage as with halberdier/spearmen/kamayuks at the engame. Vs other spear and vs paladins. And vs Boyars (no need of cataphractoi, the outcome is obv). I think you are the best placed to make a proper video explaining it all. Of course consider only civ with bonus that affects them. such as aztecs or franks for the paladins.
For some reason it's called Ribaudequin in Russian translation of the game
It is a ribaudequin. Рибадекин is a term that describes any artillery with multiple canons on it. The english have the word organ guns for it, I'm not sure where that's from.
Speaking of siege towers, would you consider doing a similar video on them?
Do a video on siege towers. I can't find any practicality in them.
idk if expressing upgrades in terms of percentage is the best way of representing them. Yes 6 is 50% more than 4, but in AoE2 I think numbers are thought of more as flat.