ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 พ.ค. 2024
- Visit www.PCBway.com for 3D printing, CNC, Sheetmetal and PCBs
E3D Rapidchange Revo sees its first high speed nozzle today with Revo HF, a high flow variant that uses new performance increasing internal nozzle geometry to increase surface area but how much faster is it?
Affiliate Links:
Revo HF Nozzles: vector3d.co.uk/revo-hf-nozzles
Revo Hotsides: vector3d.co.uk/revo-hf-hotside
Revo 60W heater core: vector3d.co.uk/revo-60w
Rapido: tidd.ly/42V8w7a
Rapido Plus: tidd.ly/3WaStAa
CHT: tidd.ly/3BtSPZh
Other Links:
CNC Kitchen Benchmark Tool: github.com/CNCKitchen/Extrusi...
Buy my designs: vector3d.shop
Support me Via Patreon: / vector3d
Chat on Twitter: @Adam_V3D
Join the Vector 3D Discord: / discord
0:00 E3D Revo High Flow Release
0:41 Sponsored by PCBWay & E3D!
1:21 Introduction to Revo High Flow
1:56 How Revo High Flow Works
2:34 Revo High Flow Testing Method
4:15 Subscribe to Vector3D
4:24 Standard Nozzle Test Results
4:53 CHT Nozzle Test Results
5:16 Revo Standard Test Results
5:34 Revo High Flow Test Results
6:01 Extrusion 95 Results Comparison
6:22 Flow Rate Per mm Length Comparison
6:31 CHT vs Revo HF Comparison
6:52 Cost Effective Comparison
7:15 Test Considerations
7:42 Conclusions on Revo High Flow - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![[Full Episode] Hell's Kitchen Thailand EP.12 | 28 เม.ย. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xCjbu5t25Pw/mqdefault.jpg)
I've written a short article to answer some of the questions you might have after watching this video. I've written it on my website so I can support it with images etc. Hope it helps.
vector3d.co.uk/2023/05/qa-revo-high-flow-testing/
Can't remember the last time I was this excited to watch a video about a nozzle. 🤣
Great video!
Absolutely love your attention to detail and targets used for testing. Thank you for taking the time!
Excellent video. Waiting on my kit to arrive (and a printer build being finished to run it on) but I'm excited. Also adore your "Results will vary" addendum. So tired of "But so-so got different results, yours must be wrong!" comments.
Thanks Alan. Flow testing more than anything! Polymer flow is so complex and testing methods vary so much.
YES!! Highflow is here!! I need them!!
I was puzzled, to me Revo is a digital audio company and I was intrigued to see how that bit of metal was going to upgrade my audio. Small world.
Makes your music play 60% faster 😂
To me revo is a vehicle tuning company. I was intrigued to see you put a stage 2 map on your ender 3 and a brass nozzle somewhere on your vw golf.
When modifying my profiles for CHT nozzles I noticed that they require a bit higher pressure advance than plain nozzles. And on small complicated prints that can actually result in slower printing if a large enough percentage of the time is spent decelerating into a corner or acceleratin from one. So now I keep my CHTs in my V-Core 3 500 and my V-Minion can actually print some small things faster using non-HF Revo hotend - higher accelerations and lower pressure advance each contribute to that. So I think for some printers and/or users the new HF Revo could be a total vaste of money because if you can rarelly reach the limit on flow-rate the extra money will not increase the performance at all.
Got my Revo HF upgrade kit in two days surprisingly direct from E3D to California. So far it is definitely an upgrade. I easily printed a Benchy (decent quality) in 20 mins with 0.6mm HF nozzle with PLA with no tuning. I'm sure I would be able to get around 15 mins with PETG or ASA/ABS. I'm pretty happy with it so far but more testing is needed. I think for its size, it is really good from the looks of it
Reasons for Normal Revo vs. HF: Usage with Prusa MMU. I need clean Tips, which I don't think are possible with the HF Variant or CHT. Also of course, printing with abrasive materials, as no ObXidian version seems to be available for HF.
Ye, mmu could be one reason. But i'm talking brass nozzles, obviously a high flow nozzle doesn't make obXidian obsolete.
You'd be surprised with the tips of "split nozzles". On my CHT or Bozzle printers I have not needed to either heat up the hotend nor snip the tip to remove/insert filament because the tip always comes out pointy with no bulb.
I have one of these in my first Voron (switchwire) and was waiting on something like this. After seeing the pricing I was a bit disappointed and admittedly even more so with the performances but that being said I need to temper my expectations and really consider that the technology is crammed into a small light package and like he said in the video, the size of the heartbreak isn't as long as something like a volcano. I'm still going to get the .6 if they don't sell out because that one looks to offer the best bang for buck.
Very cool video. I like your data driven approach and acknowledging that it's very difficult to perfectly match other flow rate calculations or findings.
I think while Revo + HF Nozzles isn't the best performing combo for Volumetric flow, the versatility the platform offers somewhat makes up for it.
I've seen these on tiny Prusa Mini's printing tiny Mini-figs with a .15mm nozzle. Seen them on MK3S's printing CF/Nylon and other abrassives with ObXidian. And seen them on Voron's pumping out parts and printing at 200-300mm/s (obviously layer height/width can make print speed look very high)
But any of those printers can one handed cold swap out that specific use case nozzle and put in another for whatever reason. That's pretty cool.
So maybe not a master of any specific use case, but a great Jack of all Trades? $80-$100 purpose designed HF Rapido? Or $80-100 Rapid Nozzle Change Revo that can now get better VFR.
When I got the email "REVO HIGH FLOW" my heart sunk. I just bought a revo voron single nozzle kit. I thought it would be a whole new hotend. No... it's just a nozzle. I love this! Sadly I've spent so much money upgrading my ratrig (dual filament, FFFM, wobbleX and just purchased lots more for AWD). So I don't want to spend another £30 on just 1 nozzle for my v0 which I'm currently building into a F-Zero.
very interesting, I love my Revo for the convenience on my old Prusa but I would have hopped the HF version is a bit more competitive, Revo volcano using the same nozzles would be great. But seeing how long we had to wait for "coming soon" HF I guess we'll have to wait quite a bit, if that is even planned.
i really loved the revo concept when it was announced. i've preordered the revo six full kit and the voron revo. But the lack of high flow and hardened nozzles led me to use a Trianglelabs 115W CHC Pro which is cheaper and much better at higher flows. why would i get my revos out again if the ObXidian Nozzles and the 60W Heaters aren't even in stock.
Some reviews have shown the CHT negatively affects retraction or messes up compatibility with TPU. Does Revo HF have these downsides as well?
I was already on the fence on switching out the cht nozzles I currently run... now I am even more on the fence. :p .. I think I need to convert a printer to the revo system at least, so I can get some hands on experience with it. Thank you. :)
Don't , the rapido wasn't even in HF mode, it would destroy the revo close to 40% more flow.
I'm a bit hesitant spending 40Eur on a nozzle that is a wear part after all, on the other hand I've yet to replace a nozzle because it was worn out so that might not be a rational concern.
Now, if that insert was made of tungsten 😍
Although it seems like getting the old filament out might be a pain and require more than normal purging
I will take ease of use and compatibility any day. They are solid and consistently work with less fuss. So i will be sticking with my Revo.
They are freaking expensive tho, damn. Around €50/nozzle. Normal V6 is 1/10th of the price!
You do need to consider the whole system though. If you don't have rapido or other long heater, v6 nozzles will not get the performance shown in the video.
@@Vector3DP That is definitely true! standard V6 0,40 is rated at 13mm³/s (for around €6) REVO HF 0,40 is rated at 16mm³/s (for €50).
I personally understand the high price due to convenience and production complexity, but the 10 times higher price does feel quite steep for these added benefits.
Esun have some new EPLA-HF hi flow pla and I had very good results printing at speed with it, I think it would be interesting to test that if you wanted to try something else.
My question is how the HF nozzle performs if you use the standard 40 watt heater and how the standard nozzle performs using the 60 watt heater?
Could you test Veda3D extruder/hotend ?
Would be interested in seeing if the 60w heater core gives a significant improvement.
It won't make a difference in many cases since higher power doesn't really increase performance, it just allows the hotend to perform its best. E3D have some additional data on when its suggested to have one.
First of all thank you for this video - packed with good information! But now on to E3D, i love the concept of the Revo and i got one fully loaded on my Voron "but"... i´m sorry but the fact that ObXidian is STILL not in stock, the 60W heater-core ist 37 Pounds and (god have mercy) the f-in High-Flow Nozzle is 40 Pounds a pop is ridiculous!
You used the 60w revo heater cartridge where?
Any comparisons coming using the standard 40W heater vs the 60W heater? Curious how much of a difference it is between the two.
20watts difference :) Most times you wont notice the difference because unless the PID controls the power to the hotend to control temperature. adding a higher power heater won't increase flow rate on its own.
just speed of getting to temperature, if the meltzone length didn't change, there is no flow impact
I’ve just ordered this. What should I set my Max volumetric speed to now with abs+?
.4 nozzle
A direct comparison to the Rapido HF would be ideal perfect.
That would be just embarrassing 😂
I'd rather see a direct comparison to goliath hotend.
You mention that the difference in flow rate may be due to the difference in melt zone length.
It may also be affected by the coupling between the heating element and the melt zone. The e3d is (poor) contact based conduction only because the nozzle is a seperate unit and theere is only a spring holding the heating element against it axially, while radially there is an airgap.
While the phaetus rapido is fully integrated so the conduction is as good as it can get.
Honestly, I don't think it matters. The brass is so much more conductive than the plastic filament that I don't think thermal distribution is an issue. Just a guess based on experience though.
@@Vector3DP How big is the air gap, 0.1, 0.2... 0.5?? can the heating element wiggle side to side with a nozzle in it?
In my understanding the poor thermal interface basically acts as a time delay between the melt zone and the heating element. That will result in the temperature in the melt zone lagging behind that off the (measured) temperature of the heating element. So the control loop will be less effective.
e.g. if the printer requests a burst of high flow rate, there will be a delay between when the melt zone cools due to the plastic carrying away heat and when the sensor in the heating element detects the drop. Then the controller will switch on the heating element and there will be another delay before the heat generated in the heating element reaches the melt zone.
Could add up to 0.5 - 1% of the 0.5g blob generated by the cnc kitchen gcode? Even 1% is only 0.005g/5mg.
In my expierience - revo need at least 10°C more temp... it looks like a temprature offset. Stephan found somthing quite similar. 10°C more would also increase the flow rate a bit - but is it comparable? one would need to measure the exact temprature at the nozzle to have the same temp on all nozzles.
One can never actually measure the direct temperature without affecting it. When i have my uber v2 test machine setup, things will be more detailed :)
@@Vector3DP Schrödingers Nozzle all over again :)
Does anyone know how to buy a Obxidian? It's out of stock for such a long time......
Looking at your somewhat caked and filthy looking nozzles, so here's a silly thought that i tested myself and it seems to work but i wasn't thorough enough with the testing to be absolutely convinced that it works: season the bottom surface of your nozzle in linseed oil that you bake on. I simply brushed it on, heated it up to 250, and brushed it on a few more times over like a day of curing. I also suppose it will cure on if you just air-dry it eventually, so you could conceivably season your nozzles that you aren't using off the printer so you don't occupy the printer by doing nothing but keeping temperature.
I also wonder if there's a temperature safe finishing oil that can be used.
You mentioned testing Revo HF using the new 60w heater core. Were the Revo SF nozzles also tested with the 60w, or with the original 40w heater core? I'm guessing that there is little to no benefit in just changing from SF to HF nozzles without also buying an uprated heater core, so that further increased the cost of moving to Revo HF. Seems like an expensive upgrade 🤔
In theory there is no benefit to using 60W over 40W on standard flow nozzles, hence they went with 40W. I used 60W for all the Revo testing though.
VS a UHF RAPIDO with VOLCANO and CHT VOLCANO ??
I'm glad there are more options for folks already using Revo, but it's expensive for the flow rates achieved especially when you compare the Rapido UHF. CHT volcano nozzles are only US$25 (and are available for abrasives).
Good improvement, but you're still only getting what I'd call "standard flow" rates. That ABS you used recommends fairly low temperatures. I typically print Polymaker or Sparta3D ABS at 260C. I'd love for you to see what happens to max. flow rate vs temp.
ABS is unstable. You can't keep it at elevated temperature for very long, it starts to degrade and turn into brownish brittle shit. If you're printing at 260°C, you should ideally already keep decent pace, not snail pace, but like normal usual-ish print parameters are OK, but say doing that on a printer with usual slow mechanics but at 0.05mm layers would not, you would cook it. If you're squirting it out fast and not giving it time to cook, you can also afford to go up with the temperature. I think different recommended temperature may just be down to different assumed volumetric rate.
Why does e3d V6 work so well even 0.4? There are a LOT of hotends, particularly stock hot-ends on everything generic, with substantial degradation beyond about 13mm/s^3.
Rapido has an extended melt zone
Did anyone know if this is compatible with a Flsun V400 and if yes will it be really an upgrade for this kind of rapid 3d printer ( 400mm/s )
You’d need to modify the hot end of the V400 to use Revo™ first.
@@brisance Thank you 🙏
@@Franckie.G Installing Revo for 400mm/s is a mistake, take a look at the goliath hotend if you wanna go fast.
When CHT M6 clones with copper inserts exists, this is a hard sell imo unless you're really into that ecosystem, the only difference being there's no high flow clones for abrasives, well not yet anyway.
BOZZLE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything CHT. Solid tungsten carbide so it'll outlast a ruby/diamond insert a million times over. Similar conductivity to brass, improved high flow geometry(better for cold pulls/retractions than CHT) and it can be torched clean with MAPP/Propane over and over again.
What about Volcano?
when you say v6 do you mean volcano? I don't see a standard v6 getting 20mm/3..
It's a standard V6 nozzle used in a phaetus rapido hotend which also melts filament before it gets to the nozzle.
Great analysis! Sad to see E3D isn't really competitive anymore. Seems like they're always trying to catch up instead of leading the pack.
It's really quite obvious what they need to do: increase meltzone length. I forget who did the test but I remember seeing that longer meltzones benefit more greatly from high flow geometry than shorter meltzones. I guess machines with slower kinematics like bed slingers really hold back development in that regard, having a 40mm+ heatzone is hard to accommodate when you can't manage 15k accels and 750mm/s travels.
I think you missed an opportunity here to put the results into perspective. How much real world performance is left on the table by revo hf? How fast can you print with revo hf? Is the higher flow rate of cht only “useful” for printing speedbenchys? Or can that higher flow rate actually support practical printing?
There is still loads more than could be done. I had 5 days for testing, scripting, recording, editing, and uploading. I did what I could in the time I had available.
And you did great for that short time!! There will be many other review videos about to revo hf, I suppose.
Higher flow rate helps a tonne with practical printing, you get higher strength parts and better layer adhesion when you're at around 60% of usable flow.
was it tested with the new 60watt heatercore?
Yes
Please include the 0.5 tungsten HF nozzles: the bozzle and the deez nozzles.
Hi anyone upgrade que Neptune 3 Max with this beast?
CNCKitchen said that the 40w is enough for the standard sizes, unless you are going for eg 1mm nozxle
Great video, now e3d need to do better if they want me to buy into a closed patent ecosystem
I appreciate the work put into collecting the data, but I do wish that more aftermarket hot ends had been a part of the tests. The absence of the Goliath, Mosquito Magnum, and others is a bit frustrating. The audience for the Revo High-flow is going to mostly be made of people looking for highflow in general. Everyone who is already rocking Revo wouldn't really need the data because they're unlikely to get anything else if they go high flow, just because of the investment they've already made. So then who is left? Curious people in general (who would be satisfied regardless) and people looking to get into a high flow set up. Just feels like a missed opportunity and leaves me feeling unsatisfied.
1:35 …ObXidian solved the first problem!
Yes. I did have that mentioned in my notes, it was also in the video at some point. Must have got deleted out by accident
So you confirmed what I suspected. Revo HF is more or less a gimmick because they didn’t increase the length(the most important metric) of the melt zone. CHT is also half the price of a Revo HF if you combine the cost of the heater it’s a massive failure coming in at triple the price of a Bambu Labs hotend sporting similar flow rates. I just don’t understand how e3d got so out of touch with the industry. Nobody should be paying 3X the price for the same level of performance as you get with everyone else. Even a normal ender 3 hotend will push those kinds of flow rates with a CHT(you know the ones that cost $10).
Sounds like confirmation bias. These is not the conclusion of the video.
@@Vector3DP You said it yourself the thing barely hit's 26mm^3/s. Numbers aren't bias they're reality.
@@Vector3DP Certainly seems like the conclusion of the video to me, you shouldn't accuse someone of having confirmation bias just because they came to a conclusion that isn't the conclusion you were trying to make. Comes across as very disrespectful to your audience to tell someone they're biased because your results painted a different picture than what you anticipated.
After having 3 revo failures in 10 hours of printing i tried a rapido. To me rapido is a far better hotend
Absolutely.
I have 2 Revos and 3 Rapidos.
Rapido all the way.
so revo HF is basically standard v6 flow rate nice, this should be the case from beginning. The standard revo are just disappointing got two from my ldo kit but they are completely useless especially on a corexy machine. Even on a bedslinger it too slow unless you sticking to the stock 50mm/s print speed, basically have zero uses and the nozzle quick change feature not even that different compare to a standard nozzle swap on a v6 style hotend, so a fortune and doesn't even perform, you are better off even just buying bambu lab hotend that are cheap and performs well for your machine if you can mount it
No, you really missed the point here.
@@Vector3DP isn't the point that this is what they should have released from the very beginning? to offer a small formfactor light weight hotend that can at least match standard v6 hotends?
@@8bits955 It does match standard V6 hotends. Comparing the numbers to a Rapido (which is, effectively, a Volcano that can use standard sized nozzles) isn't a fair comparison. A standard V6 hot end with a standard V6 .4 nozzle is pretty much identical to a Revo with a .4 nozzle. Again, you're comparing a Rapido HF (there are only HF and UHF Rapidos) to a Revo SF.
Not that this is a BAD video (it's the first I've seen anywhere with details about Revo HF), but using the Rapido, to me, invalidates it a bit. It would be better served to use a V6 or a Dragonfly, or even a regular standard flow Dragon vs Revo since comparing a heater block a full 1/3 longer than the Revo isn't apples to apples. That's why there's the '% gained from changing nozzle tech' metric that shows that Revo to Revo HF gains more than going V6 to CHT.
@@WhiteG60 oh yeah this defo isn't a bad video at all vector done a good job fairly detailed, just more about how disappointing revo was with their normal nozzle, this high flow nozzle is what it should have been. I wouldn't say rapido is a volcano but it does increase flow rate a bit at least from what i found. I personally owned and tested many hotend that includes,mk8, dragonfly, standard v6 from e3d, dragon st, dragon hf and dragon ufh, rapido hf/uhf, goliath and ofcourse revo aswell. Fom personal experience revo is the worst one here inturns of performance along with the mk8 hence why I don't use both anymore. This is especially bad for revo only until now you don't even get the option to use other nozzle design such as cht to improve the flow and considering the price they are charging it stuipd for it to be compared and more limited to a mk8 hotend.
The reality is, the best comparison is not one with similar performance (we don't even know what that would be until after testing anyway) but one of similar price because that is what consumers will be comparing against when making a decision on what to buy. Nobody is thinking of buying a V6 now. Dragonfly is a really low cost hotend so its not a close decision to spend £50 vs £110. Rapido is a high performance hotend at a great price. If you want to join the market, you can't pretend it doesn't exist.