E3D Revo™ is great BUT has a dirty secret! (REVIEW)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 เม.ย. 2024
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RapidChange REVO is E3Ds new hotend eco system. I had a great time testing it the last two and a half months, never changed so many nozzles so conveniently but also had one fail on me and discovered some things during my tests that you should know if you already use one or if you consider buying one. (Disclaimer: E3D provided the review hardware free of charge. All opinions are my own!)
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:45 Sponsor Part
02:17 E3D Revo Ecosystem
04:22 Revo NozzleBreaks & Patent
05:46 Price
06:42 Installation on Prusa Mk3s
07:21 Print Quality
07:56 Quick Swap System
11:39 Heater Core
12:51 Thermal Tests
16:25 "The Gradient Problem" (Dirty Secret)
18:10 Flow Test
19:17 Failed Heater Core
19:59 Summary
#3dprinting #revo #rapidchange
DISCLAIMER: This video was sponsored by Grammarly. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Extruding the thermocouple into the nozzle to measure the gradient between the heatbreak and actual nozzle temps was brilliant. And so was the way you figured out the temperature gradient. I had tuned my Revo Hemera to run 15 degrees hotter, but I put it down to the massive inconsistencies between different batches of eSun ABS+ filament.
This is some top notch testing and terrific example of lateral thinking. Genuinely impressed with this review.
I tested all E-sun range of filaments 3 yers ago, got to the conclusion that I am better off after I sent them the results and they blamed.... me for trying to ruin their business. No more E-sun products anymore.
@@severpop8699 eSun ABS+, like most things Chinesium, tend to vary wildly from spool to spool. You absolutely must tune each spool for flow and temperature settings, and conduct layer adhesion tests or you are in for a bad time.
eSun filaments are essentially garbage, but garbage is cheap. So I use them for prototyping and to otherwise try out stuff. The actual final parts I plan to use are pritned in Polymaker ASA, ABS, or Nylon.
@@nachiketmhatre7411 The problem I encounterd was on PLA, PLA plus, PLA carbon fiber, PETG, PETG carbon fiber, ABS, TPU, HIPS, PC, PC carbon fiber from E-sun that in the same spool there were inconsintecies in temperature needed, suggesting the filament was extruded into a spool out of cross contaminated materials of different composition, I even burned some segments to see if I can smell the differecnde as filament burning progressed, and yes, it smelled like popcorn, than like nylon, than like ABS than again like popcorn in one meter.
This shows me their quality check is inexistent, they do not clean thir machines between batches, and whtever they have leftover in a bin they throw it in the next bin to save some Kg from being discharded, but they might throw in PLA ove ABS and over PC, they don't care.
The other Chinesium PLA, PETG, ABS etc have not this problem, they might differ from spool to spool, but not within the same spool, besides their pretty pricy filament behaves in printing and post printing worse than bloody chep competiton from the same country.
@@severpop8699 eSUN PA-CF is one of my favorite filaments. I like it better than carbon-X because its not nearly as brittle. Strong AF and looks really nice too!
@@severpop8699 I had been having good results with ESun but I have recently been very confused as to why I couldn't get good layer adhesion with my ESun rainbow filament. I thought I was going crazy since it still broke apart even at 230c! (PLA+).
I had no idea the new thermistor position had such a significant effect. Cool study!
"Cool study" - I see what you did there… ;-)
Thermistor has a huge effect. On my volcano hotend I drilled new hole for the termistor because the design is simply wrong.
The thermistor should touch the nozzle, the new design is trash
1) I love how thorough you are with testing. I don't think anyone else on TH-cam does it the way you do...thank you!
2) It seems like a lot of expense for benefits that may be rather minimal to a number of users. It seems that the #1 benefit is rapid nozzle changes, but I don't stress about performing nozzle changes, either on the Mk8 hot end on my Ender 3 or the Volcano on my Sidewinder X1. Having a palm ratchet instead of the basic tools that come with most printers maybe helps with that, of course, but those are relatively inexpensive and are useful for anyone with a V6, Mk8, Volcano, or other standard hot end. That kind of price tag for otherwise similar performance and a slightly increase in overall safety seems a bit much.
3) The inaccurate temperature thing might not affect normal printing performance (albeit after what might be a lengthy profile re-tuning process), but it is concerning that there doesn't seem to have been more thought put into how to account for the new thermal profile of the hot end.
4) The lack of licensing for clones is one more example of a seemingly growing trend back towards proprietary tech in 3D printing. The reasoning seems good this time, certainly compared to what Elegoo and ChiTuBox are trying to do with resin printing, but the end result is the same. We'd still be mired in the dark days of using $3,000 printers that are more finicky than a Rube Goldberg machine to print only ABS if it weren't for the massive amount of innovation that came from the open-source model that the industry has thrived on over the last several years.
Regarding 4, I would say we don't have to worry too much about it: E3D gets their deserved cash from it, until someone circumvents their patents with something cool, maybe even better. I feel like this industry itself, in general, cannot be dominated by proprietary solutions, given the technical understanding of the client base: the industries that need the machines that work 100% of the time (as if they did...) have always had different business models tied to ecosystems and different deals with those brands, hence the traditional 2D printer manufacturers thrive there but not with the other client base, us makers and tinkerers, that know how to circumvent BS moves they might try to pull, and would gladly buy a replacement Aliexpress board/part that solves the issue, which will be quickly available in that hypothetical scenario.
I do wonder about your real example tho of the resin printers, cause I know the Chitubox boards and LCD kits are being sold cheaply enough exactly to that client base that doesn't take the BS, but, I sort-of remember seeing alternatives on the same places that weren't tied down like that. Now I'm not entirely sure tho, so I'm not claiming anything.
It's not more expensive than comparable hotends. It can't be compared to a V6 clone; they don't have equivalent features. A lot of people consider a mosquito an alternative, and that's more than twice as expensive.
Comment on item 2: I have a prusa mk3s+ with the "staggered?" Heatbreak 2mm to 2.2mm. I've been plagued by jams 1 month after I got my printer. These jams are only happening in the heatbreak and no where near the nozzle, this has happened with pla and petg. Mostly with pla, petg not that often. I haven't printed any other materials because it's so frustrating to deal with this. I recently found out I can get a new heatbreak that's actually the original e3d one and it should prevents this. But I've been leaning towards just getting the revo and being done with it. I don't swap nozzle often, but if I do want to, I need to consider the fact that I might initiate jamming by messing with the hotend in anyway. And it almost always occurs. Which leads to a whole dismantling of thr hotend, heating up thr hearsink with a hest gun and trying to cold pull the stuck filament. (Have to dismantle because the bond tech gears mash and melt the filament directly below the gears so it can't move any further down even if the jam clears, and it can't be cold pulled all the way up because the blob doesn't fit out upwards through the filament sensor. I ripped out out once and sent the little ball and plastic piece of the filament sensor flying. So yea. Even though I don't replace nozzles often. I still see a huge benefit to this nozzle for myself.
The problem with changing nozzles is less the hassle of it and more that I'm scared I might screw it up and either over tighten it or not tighten it enough leaving plastic to sip in between the nozzle and heat break. I imagine the new system is a lot more newbie friendly than the existing nozzle system.
It's not a theoretical problem either. I destroyed a phaetus dragon doing exactly this.
There is an answer to this problem that is really simple : use torque wrench or torque screwdriver. There is even some that can be 3D printed. I never destroyed anything using the right tool.
If you're scared of that then get a torque wrench for installation, and make sure to always pre heat before removing.
Buy a torque wrench.
Torque wrench...
😂
The tool-less changing is really a game changer. I had some other nozzles laying around, but never used them because I was afraid to mess up. Since I installed the revo I print every piece on the most suitable detail level. Winning a lot of speed and print quality!
Currently throwing up a document about 3d printing extrusion systems. A big list for say. I appreciate your work a lot, always got great research. Keep it up Stefan!
This is exactly what wrong with those lists, you take these sponserd content and just repeat it.
@@thai9503 Nope, the revo is at the bottom of the list pretty much. It sucks compared to other options like the nf crazy, dragonfly, rapido, volcomosq, etc. I'm a real enthusiast with 8 printers and years of experience xD
@@munzlp this sounds really good! Do you have a channel or blog or something I can follow?
@@thai9503 yeah, my 3dp channel is called christmas3dp
Iv'e had my Revo for a few weeks and I love it. I never liked changing nozzles in the past as I had bad luck with things breaking or leaking and it was just a pain, now it's painless. Thanks for your very detailed review and investigations.
I had a heater core fail too! Their RMA was amazing, new one sorted with little trouble.
My fails as well.
I had 2 fail. Both reporting temps about 40-50 deg lower than reality.
I loved the temperature in the nozzle and heat break test and graph!
Great review, thanks Stefan! What bothers me most when changing nozzles (I switch them a lot atm): re-adjusting Z-offsets. Will be interesting if the tolerances of the final production units eliminate that process 🧐
I swap mine between .6 and .4 often and see no Z change
You could use something like the Vorons do and set your z with an end stop triggered by the nozzle. That way, regardless of nozzle location, your offsets from the tip to the bed will be consistent.
@@heavenisalie lucky you. I went through last weekend calibrating my set. Seems the .25 and .8 are very similar in length, and thus similar Z offset. And then .4 and .6 have identical length, so again, same offset. But the difference between the two groups' lengths (and thus Z offsets) is about 0.2mm! Which is honestly quite a lot. Anyway, so I have basically different profiles on my Prusa so when I switch nozzles I also have to switch sheet settings.
@@shenqiangshou I would be contacting them for replacement IMO, I'll have to check the rest of my nozzles
I'd be fine with them being only in the same ballpark, so I'd just have to do slight adjustments instead of having to start from zero.
Amazing video Stefan, thank you! I switched my MINI+ to Revo Micro as soon as it became available. I frequently switch between 0.25 / 0.4 / 0.6 mm nozzles and just got tired of the cycle times. Revo changed all that, especially with the additional retraction in end-gcode. That said I did notice a need for higher temperatures with certain filaments. I have a thermocouple multimeter here and thought about testing the temperatures, but I'm glad to see you did a far more thorough job! :o) Thanks again, and I have just bought Grammarly Premium 1yr through your affiliate link.
I own a Revo Hemera and use it on my tuned Ender 3 pro... Thank you very much for the in depth high quality analysis of this system: I'll look over my temperature settings, especially because I have a slightly overpowered two fan part cooling setup.
I'm so grateful for content like this!
Great review as always Stefan! 👍 Looking forward for the prints once the all metal nozzles come out!
WOW amazing work on this Stefan. The science that you present here, both technical and easy to digest.
A Voron 2.4 Build planned? The boxes full of ABS parts most certainly look like it.
Yes @ 19:20
He mentions there is an upcoming build of one near the end.
This is amazing work ! Btw I’ve shared with you on Facebook messenger my test results of the Dragon HF hotend with the CHT nozzle and it’s pretty amazing. 27mm^3/sec with only 3-4% extrusion loss.
I have a Revo Six running on my Mk3s, having changed over from a Mosquito. I do a lot of nozzle size changes and the Mosquito was a good solution. The Revo nozzle changes are slower than with a Mosquito, but the tidy heater wiring and PTC heater are why I switched. As a bonus, the Revo stays much cleaner. The inevitable plastic mess never gets highter than the bottom of the Revo nozzle.
thanks for the video - I love the Revo micro on my Prusa mini - the quick nozzle change is fantastic.
More quality content from the CNC chef in his kitchen :)
Thanks for this review, the ability to swap nozzles so quickly & easily is quite appealing as I want to try smaller nozzles, but without a nozzle for abrasive filaments yet I'll stick with the hotend my Prusa Mk3 came with.
As you like upgrading things, can I suggest my Thingything 4330049, a more ergonomic knob for the Prusa control dial, it makes changing settings so much easier & quicker, especially when you need to dial in a temperature/fan speed etc.
I just bought a revo Hemera to replace my busted extruder on my CR10s Pro V2. Wasn’t looking at getting the Hemera, but then my extruder destroyed its self. Great video. I’ll have to watch / check my temperatures when setting everything up. I also wanted the revo because I do change nozzles a lot. I’m loving the idea that I may not have to do first layer calibrations every time too.
Keep up the great work
Sounds like a winner, for the price the negatives don't seem to bad. I'm already far into the mosquito setup & very happy with it, but it & the nozzles are far from cheap, but no problems either. I love all the testing you do & data you present so well, thank you!
Thank you! Wonderfully done, and you asnwered all my questions I was considering. I am doing a custom upgrade for a Fokoos Odin-5 hot end assembly.
I love the graphics in this video, great job and thank you so much for the effort!
Glad you like them!
Brilliant review, again, Stefan. I, too, have messed up either the thermistor wires or cross-threaded the steel nozzle and/or heat block on my Swiss-Micro all metal hot end (CR-10S). I have been considering a change, and do appreciate the integrated and strained relieved thermistor, to something with a rapid-change nozzle. I'll keep watching E3D for the Revo-CR nozzle kits (currently on back-order). Thanks!
Great review and tests
Thanks for sharing your findings 🙂
The best review on the Revo anywhere! Thanks!
Im really interested in your Voron 2.4 build. Are you doing a review? I hope so.
Man, these sorts of features are exactly the thing we need in the hobby. Swapping nozzles is such a hassle, and it's not just about swapping sizes, but maybe other things, like swapping out clogged nozzles for unclogged ones or whatever. Shame there are no aftermarket solutions yet for abrasives, but I imagine they will come.
Long story short in favor of the Revo. The other day I wanted to change the nozzle on my Prusa i3. As usual I heated the hotend, held the heater block with a wrench with my left hand and used another 7 mm key with my right hand to unscrew the nozzle. But this time I didn't pay enough attention. During a fraction of a second, the wrench touched the exposed cables of the heater cartridge on the side (these cables are indeed EXPOSED because of their silly 90° orientation caused by how idiotic heater blocks have been designed). A short circuit ensued, with a visible and audible spark that cut one of the cables of the heater cartridge straight. After repair, I came to the sad conclusion that the motherboard (Einsy RAMBo) had been toasted by the spark too: there was no more voltage on the pins when asking the hotend to heat. This is a €150 repair, with 2× 1 week waiting for the parts, with excessive shipping costs. For such a bad heater block design, which I despised since the beginning even before I even had a problem with it. On my other printer (Voron 2.4) I went with another kind of hotend not so stupidly designed (a clone of the Mosquito, with a fixed, non-rotatable heater block). But for my Prusa I will seriously consider replacing the E3D V6 with a Revo when it is eventually repaired.
Thanks for the review! I think the Revo is going to be a big seller for E3D with their quality and ease of use. Especially as a replacement/upgrade for people looking to try materials that aren't supported by some stock hot ends. For me, a hot end like the Mosquito or Dragon that requires only 1 hand and 1 tool but is open to many more options in nozzle types/prices is preferable.
Stephan, thanks for all the good work. I have two revos which are back out of the printers I put them into (Vorons). I found the cold extrusion to be a real problem. My extruder was 30-40C colder (as measured with a Fluke 87V with a type K thermocouple) than reported. This created unusable parts. So temporarily I have put my Phaetus Dragon HF back in and have been watching to see others experiences.
Great video. Just got got one and it’s good to know about temp difference.
I have broken wires changing nozzles as well, this looks like a nice solution. Great video!
Thanks for the in-depth review! Interestingly, I had a similar problem with the heater core, with temperatures jumping around during heat-up; although I only realized it after taking a closer look once you reported your problems on the Meltzone podcast. Contacted E3D support, they changed the heater core without problems, no issues since then.
I gotta say, for me, the fact that you can swap nozzles without a) having to worry about wires breaking and b) afterwards having to re-adjust the live-z value is the feature I was looking for. I print a lot of stuff for board games, and tend to swap nozzles often (.25 for miniatures, .4 for boardgame terrain, .6 for everything practical). Especially for the miniatures, having a dialed-in live-z-value is important to get nice looking prints. On the old v6 hotend, re-adjusting this could take anywhere from 10 to 60mins. With Revo, I've only had to set that parameter once after installation, and never since, no matter how often I cahnged nozzles.
the review i was waiting for, thanks!
Very interesting and extremly good video, as always! Im waiting for the abrasion resistant nozzles. But as soon as they get available ill swich to the revo on my prusa.
Looking forward to them as well!
Excellent work! The thermistor position issue is unfortunate. It’ll be a pain if you have to adjust the extrusion temp as a function of part cooling. OTOH, as you say, this might also be a factor with other hot ends; something I’ll have to pay attention to in my printing.
Given that, I’m surprised that it performed better than the original at high flow rates; that’s a good thing!
I do like the idea of it being easier to change nozzle sizes; I almost never change mine because it’s such a hassle :-/
Always the best and most informative videos!!!
I look forward to your Voron build video. I have been ordering parts to build a 2.4, and have not gotten to the head yet - I may just go with this from the start.
Im in a similar situation, ive almost finished my v2.4 build with a revo. Still missing the bed but fermio should soon restock those.
Excellent video!!! Great job. I'm not ready until the abrasion resistant nozzles are out. I wonder how it stacks up against the heat profile of a Slice Eng Mosquito/Magnum.
What fantastic information! Stephan you are a titan among men in the 3D world.
Thank you.
Thanks for the deep technical insights 👍 I'm in doubt if it's worth to get this kit. It may good for people with no sense of torque in the hands and over screw the threads every nozzle swap.
The kit seems to offer only brass nozzles, I prefer also hardnerd steel for abrasive material. If the thermistor /heat element dies you had to throw away the whole heat block. That is not in the sense of savings precious raw materials.
What about if the kit nozzle unit gets clogged? How can you clean it? A single nozzle you can change or clean relative easily.
PS : if the punched numbers on conventional nozzles are no more readable because of burned plastic, heat it up and clean it with a little brass-wire brush. The you can sing "I can see clearly now..."
Nice work Stefan, good thinking outside the box! I preordered a Revo on the first day, and it still isn't here. Have to check on that... I doubt I'll put Revo on all my printers, but it will be good for some of them.
That test for temperate gradient within the nozzle is clever. 👍
Thank you Stefan for your in-depth analysis. There are increasing reports of clogs when running PLA through the Revo Micro on the Prusa Mini using the E3D supplied fan. I believe this is heat creep due to the PWM fan speed reduction in the Mini firmware. If you can fit an analysis into your schedule, it would be very relevant.
15:38 wow that's an amazing illustration
Oh I didn't know you were doing a 2.4! I have built 4 now and absolutely love them!
Still need to upgrade mine to the new After burner
I’m going back and forth on building a rat rig or a voron, what are your thoughts about the 2.4?
Revo & MMU2 combo works really well for me, by default the MMU2 removes filament on print finish so it's perfect for nozzle swaps (I know this can be done via gcode too for non MMU printers)
the engineering that went into this is so cool. i'd love to get one, just costs a bit too much being a student, maybe in the future
Great review, thanks! I have Revo Micro on my Prusa Mini and the ease of nozzle changing is fantastic. No more “this is big part, 0.6 would be better, but I’m too lazy to change nozzle”. This works very well.
What is this speed test?
I tried to get a warranty for the heater core assembly that the thermistor failed on for my MK3S after little use. They made me jump through too many hoops and multiple correspondences. Finally gave up and purchased another assembly and it fixed the problem. Out $40. I could use a kit for my Mini but I am reluctant to do so after that. Otherwise it works great and convenient. Might as well forget trying to get a warranty.
Very nice Job with this video. I'm currently having one in my stealthburner working fine and I'm very happy with it. But I also noticed the seemingly unbelieveble heat up time in the first 20 seconds. So it kept me wondering, what was going on in there.
And I also have to metion, that the temparature discrapancy is not so important for me, as I try to tune my setup to the filament, everytime I buy from a new vendor. So I try to tune in by performance and feel. I used to have the generic 3950 temperature sensor, so it was rather a bad but stable aproximation (cheap 3950 tends to report not so precise temperature),
Excellent, thorough review. Very useful data and charts. I hope to move to Revo Micro once the abrasive-resistant nozzles are available and have been tested by others. Since roughly 25% of my printing is with CF-enhanced materials, I look forward to that future. I’d like to know how the fan sound compares to the standard E3D-v6 fan.
is this revo hotend all metal ?
Great review as expected from you.
I can see you have issues in layer quality as well. Video about that?
There is an unofficial high-flow Revo, and it is the Phaetus Rapido hotend... It uses the same ring-heater approach but with an incredible 115W of heating, it can achieve flow rates of 45 mm^3/s with a standard V6 nozzle and supports a one-hand nozzle swap, as the heating core is bolted to the heat sink with 3 titanium screws. It's like a fusion of E3D Volcano, E3D Revo and SE Copperhead, costs less than either, and is powerful/durable AF.
i didn't realize that the rapido used standard v6's. that's actually really baller and way more of the kind of thing I was expecting out of the genuine Revo
I didn't notice the strain relief on the heater core, so that's good. I have damaged the wires on those cartridges, so this is a welcome upgrade. Plus I don't have to worry about damaging the wires with a crescent wrench. Once the local filament/parts shop started selling Revo, I ordered one immediately because the office MK3S started very slowly leaking scorched filament and depositing it on prints.
I switched to the Revo on my MK3S/MMU2S a few weeks ago and love it. I have damaged the thermister before on the old system while changing nozzles so I was always gun shy about doing it too often, but now with the Revo I will decide on the best nozzle size for nearly every print. And since the MMU2 retracts the filament automatically after printing, I don't have to wait for the heating and cooling cycle. I will mention that I did notice a slight length difference when swapping nozzles, so a minor Z calibration is still needed. I just record the offset numbers for each nozzle so it isn't a big deal.
For us MMU users I've also seen reports that tip forming requires less ramming with Revo - and no specific Prusa "MMU" heatbreak anymore either.
Always love your videos, these hotends look great.
Still waiting your prusa mini review jajaja
The temperature disparity is actually a deal breaker for me. Many of my prints rely on airflow and speed changes to achieve desired properties and inaccurate temperature that will vary based on the amount of airflow is a no go for me.
And the only solution to that would be extensive testing to find the temperature gradient based on airflow, compared to just running an already working system, no thanks.
The process of 3D printing is a bit like cooking-that is, purely empirical.
Achieving desired results isn't just about turning knobs and punching in in absolute vales. You have to run calibration prints and modify the settings in a closed feedback loop of tuning.
You did the same with your existing hot end. If you were to run the same tests on your hot end, you will find similar deviation from the expected results.
I had run my battery of calibration prints and I had set my Revo Hemera to print at 265°C, as opposed to the 250°C of the V6 hot end attached to it. At the end of the day, this really doesn't affect your prints, because you are going to recalibrate everything.
Actually If you do not use a coefficient to adjust for inaccuracies of Thermistor your Temperature reading will be most likely be wrong. Duet offers do change the Steinhart coefficient (C) to adjust for inaccuracies. Secondly depending on variable printing speed you use (for instance faster infill than perimeter etc.) I can assure you that the filament will not reach the temperature you set on your LCD. One thing is to measure the nozzle temperature the other is the actual temperature of the filament you are extruding. I highly doubt that you will see a significant difference between Revo and the current hotend you are using.
@@maximilian.arnold precisely. There are too many variables that affect the actual printing process apart from temperature recorded in the nozzle.
Absolute numbers are good relative indicators to nudge you along in the right direction, but at the end of the day, you must rely on the empirical process of calibration and print tuning.
Yeah this is actually quite surprising, thank you Stefan for the investigation and discovery. I actually bought the whole damn thing but haven't had time to install it yet. Now I am wondering if I should put it on my main workhorse mk3s, or put it on my tinkerbot. Sigh.
My printer runs a E3D V6, but I'll be watching to see whether the Revo becomes a solid contender for aggressive materials, and of course whether the higher nozzle prices are justified by better performance.
Great comparison! Would love to see similar comparisons with other brands.
can't wait to see the high flow variants, might want these for a speed machine.
I personally am testing/using a hotend that consists of a V6 heat sink, a titanium heat break/throat and a Maxiwatt heating cylinder/donut. It is very fast to heat even at 40W standard (0-220 in something like 46 seconds) seems to keep the heat well (even without a silicone sock as I can't find one for the 10mm by 20mm diameter disc shape) I enjoy it a lot, but the conversion required a new mount, and part cooling required printed ducts to get things going, which became quite a challenge when everything was mis-matched.
The only real complaint I have about the Maxiwatt is the lack of strain relief, so the wires can get damaged quite easily, rendering a "heat block" (donut) useless.
My only upset was the nozzle price, at nearly $15 US to replace if something happened, clogs and issues that normally are a "just get a new nozzle" approach are no longer available.
I preordered a Revo and using it on my MK3S. Because of the dual Fan Upgrade I made you can look directly on the nozzle and changing is a lot easier because there is no shroud in the way. :)
I do a ton of 3D printing for work (a yacht company). I only print in ASA plastic because its higher temp, UV resistant, and it sands really well. So for speed and strength purposes I only print in 0.6mm nozzles. I print large prints that get sanded and painted 99% of the time. I used to switch hotends to a .4mm nozzle for better resolution on smaller parts, but It became a pain so I just stuck with the 0.6mm for all prints. Since switching over to the revo, I switch between 0.4 and 0.6 2-3 times a week! Its such a game changer! Im a big fan!
hanks for this great analysis in deep, great job as usual.
You did not mention about the fact that the heater is only in contact with the flat surface of the nozzle, the cylindrical section has some play of 10ths/mm so would definitely not be as efficient than direct contact all the length of the nozzle.
During your benchy test, you mention the stringing that seems a little less, would that be due to less real heat into the nozzle so less stringing is logic.
What about the real temperature when you start printing, as your filament also brings some cold into the nozzle, what would there also be the real temperature?
All this leads to at least 5 to 10°C heater increase to keep up with the usual temperatures.
I have a E3D volcano. I designed to change the whole body(cooler, nozzle, block, heater, ntc) in 1-2 minutes. No need to wait to cool down but you need ready spare one.
Thanks for the great review!
Tiny production details... such as the muted SPROING sound effects during spring flicking... are admired and appreciated
I upgraded to the Revo Hemera on my mk3s and it’s been amazing so far. I might just because of a bad nozzle I had on my old v6 but these prints are way better than what I was getting before
Thanks for doing the vol flow numbers, I've been waiting for this.
I probably will put a Revo in one of my printers for the convenience of easy 0.25mm prints, at the moment I'm swapping out voron toolheads in my enclosed printer when I want my 0.6mm CHT because (convoluted reasons) but it's a annoying I have to swap out config files for PID and fan behaviour. I mean ideally I'd have a v0 for minis at 0.25mm and leave the other two with a 0.4 and 0.6 but it's rarely that easy as only one has a proper fume enclosure for abs.
I got the revo in my prusa and love it! I found that I had to push up on the heater block as im removing the nozzle or sometimes it will pop the spring off one of the sides.
A design patent only protects non-functional design features. Thus, everything that is "just looks" must be sufficiently different in a "clone".
But a hole in the middle, the outer diameter and length of the hot section, that cannot be a design patent. It could be a functional patent though.
(However note that Brompton bicycles seems to be very good at abusing their trademark of what their products looks like. Trademarks do not expire.
Well, there's the law as it is written and then there's the law as it is used. If someone offers clones on Amazon, E3D just has to wave their patent and Amazon will throw that seller of the platform. If a TH-camr reviews clone nozzles, E3D just has to wave their patent and TH-cam will take down the video and give the TH-camr a community guidelines strike. No one will go to court to challenge this because it's too expensive.
Yes, a functional patent, about the coupled nozzle and heatbreak combo that make the whole deal work as intended (otherwise the rapid change wouldn't function) is enough of an innovation to be functional-patented from what I imagine circles around the existing patents. So it would make no difference to Make some square shaped Rovo hotend if it's still a heatbreak nozzle combo.
From my reading they have left the cold side open source (it's the Hemera one anyway) but the hotend is their patent.
@@frankbauerful On the other side, "waving your patent" is quiet time consuming and expensive as well. Especially because all the cheap chinese knock off brands don't care about intellectual property and patents, anyway.
@@Rallyman240 Waving your patent requires nothing than having your lawyer send Amazon or TH-cam a letter
@@frankbauerful Amazon, TH-cam maybe, but won't stop AliExpress or eBay sellers, they won't even bother to change the shape to not violate the design patent...
Excellent unbiased research!
Literally just got my Hemera Revo. So for.... it's going OK.
The dirty secret probably explains why my nozzle clogged on my first print until I upped the temp a bit.
I for one have to give it a hard pass for a bunch of reasons with the most prominent one being the lack of backwards compatibility with the established V6 _Nozzle_ Standard allowing for outside innovations ( like the CHT Nozzles ) to be added to the system.
That's definitely something I'm not happy about either. Hope that their high flow nozzle has a similar performance as the CHT.
Agreed! Especially since the CHT nozzle works with Dragon high-flow which was already cheaper and faster than Revo before CHT came out.
Not to mention the fact that ecologically it's not terrible.
My go to response for these type of propriety nozzle, heater, thermistor solutions is a hard pass too. It is is easier to stay in the well known ecosystem and use common parts.
@@Tacks3D Same. It really could have been revolutionary if they had kept it open so it could become a new ecosystem for the whole industry. Probably would have made them more money in the long run too. Sad that this whole branch of innovation is now cut off.
Thank you Stefan for this enlightening video! It explains exactly the issues I had with my beta unit. I also used a thermistor and measured a much lower temp than what the printer reported.
When it comes to cooling, I use a lot of it and I find that the shape of the nozzle makes it difficult to focus the air flow on the tip without having an almost horizontal flow direction. If I could angle the airflow a little bit more downwards, it would not cool the nozzle as much and possibly causing a smaller temp gradient.
I'm curious why nozzle tips are designed this way? What's the benefit over a V shaped nozzle?
Late reply, but the "flat on the bottom" shape was to stop mess from moving upwards. It's inevitable that we'll have nozzle mess, this is neater, but I totally agree on the cooling aspect, most setups would have to modify the fan flow. I'm sure there's a bunch of people out there using the new Revo and wondering why they have certain problems with it; you put your finger right on the problem - it will alter the airflow !
@@mickmouse2258 thanks! I use Microswiss plated MK10 nozzles and the mess doesn't really want to stick to the "Twinclad XT" coating they have on it. I find the angle of them also helps mess being wiped off before becoming a problem on the print itself.
I usually take a short filament piece and wipe of the tip when switching materials. Sometimes a bit of paper towel.
@@printingotb521 Nice! I recall someone who setup a wiper on the side of the machine and added a command to the startup G-Code to wipe the nozzle before each print. In case you feel like playing with a project ... ;)
Great video Stefan. Did you notice any significant difference in nozzle wear compared to the E3d V6?
A review like would also really useful for the MK4 Nexttruder solution to see how it compares. 🤔
Thanks for the great new info on the E3D Revo, including the dirty secret!
From a year in the future... Diamondback nozzles are available and I ended up getting a Revo hotend bundled with a Microswiss NG extruder for a really decent price. Loving it on my Ender 3.
Great review, as always, Stefan !
Patents can be kinda frustrating, that's right. I doubt a company like E3D can do without that to "protect" their designs in some way, despite being a bit opposite to the RepRap thing. Still, given your review, I'd say it's OK(-ish) in this case since the Revo ecosystem seems to have some flaws to be addressed and enhancements to be done.
To me, the most important thing with Revo is the (much) smaller Heater Core. THAT is really great ! The nozzle-break design a bit less, to me, because it might become somewhat "expensive" in the middle/long run in case of unexpected crash into the bed. This, plus multiple upcoming variants (nickel-plated copper, hardenened steel, hi/ultra-hi flow ...), may have a future outcome on how/what users will be buying. At least for now. Maybe costs will be pulled down with time, though ?
For now, I'll keep using my currently working and somehow hassle-free solution : ceramtic heater (not E3D), V6-style nozzles, and nozzle as probe.
I recently fitted my printer with a V6. If they had launched with a Nozzle X or similar all-around abbrasion resistant nozzle I'd have gone straight to the Revo instead.
Will have to wait and see.
I also experienced a Revo thermistor problem while heating up. The reported temperature was jumping up and down at around 170 °C while the PLA in the nozzle was boiling and smoking. I had to press the reset button on my Prusa MK3 and let the hotend cool down. After that unsettling experience the hotend regained it's normal fuctionality and until now the problem has not repeated itself.
I have recently (around Christmas 2021) changed my stock Ender 3 hot end for a Microswiss direct drive and full metal Hot-end, the Nozzles are hardened steel and it allows for temperatures to about 300°C, and I am quite happy with it, since now I can print TPU what a SHA of 85 and maybe even lower (still need to test Ninjaflex Chinchilla) even though it does come with it's own problems it is quite a good hot-end and I am very pleased with it, the Nozzles are more expensive at 17€, but they last much longer, I have printed wood, bronze, Ninjaflex sha 85, Extrudr NX2 PLA, and tons of PLA filaments, I have but one printer though and many people asking me to print something for them which leaves little time for testing other filaments, maybe I should finish my hypercube but I have hit a "builderblock" (Same as a writersblock but more for builders:-) )
For me the main advantage is in the self contained heater core. Even with standard V6 nozzles that just makes nozzle changes easier. This video also introduced me to the phaetus rapido which looks like the best of both worlds.
Rapido is so nice
High flow rates
And one hand nozzle change
i own the revo six on my mk3s+ and i absolutly love it! thanks for the headsup on the problems!
Great to hear! I don't want to miss it anymore either.
Great job as always. I knew there'd by some issues due to thermistor rearrangement, but I'm honestly quite shocked now. And since other hotends aren't flimsy regarding nozzle change, either, the primary selling point continues to not be a standout for me.
Anyway, I only have a couple of printers. I'm not going to throw out my open ecosystem nozzles for a closed ecosystem that doesn't improve much.
A lot of people have broken heat-breaks or thermistor or heater wires, or burned themselves, or under- or over-tightened nozzles. You've been very lucky.
@@fwiffo By "other hotends" I meant other than E3D's V5/V6/Volcano, direct clones thereof, and AFAIK most proprietary machines. In other words, Creality's, most of Phaetus's, Slice's, and more.
Finally someone did the temperature test through the heatbreak!
Great video as always and thank you for all the in-depth testing.
I will probably still get a Revo once they are in stock. However I'm more curious about the long-term support and how E3D may potentially license out their designs. V6 and its look-alikes have been around for such a long time so they have support everywhere. If Bondtech was able to get the license for 3D Solex to make the CHT then we may potentially see E3D talking to 3D Solex for a CHT-style Revo Hotend.
I'm barely over the fence of getting one because it's so new regardless of all the nice little features. I will be watching closely and making observations on how E3D reacts to the market as the Revo begins to age as I think that it is the most important going forward. How will Revo's ecosystem evolve/change in 3 months? 6 months? a year? 2 years? Who will they allow licenses to?
This is doubtful. Great thought, but unlikely, as the CHT tech requires angled drilling of the nozzle. The Revo design is multipart and there's nowhere to DO the drilling ... It's more likely that Bondtech themselves might launch with a hotend themselves, they have to be watching the market and obviously have VERY clever engineers. With the widespread name recognition a Hotend offering would sell like hotcakes (Pun intended), especially if they included their CHT nozzles and Dual Drive extruders as a package ... eh? I know they'd sure have MY attention!
excellent detailed video! 👏
I didn’t want to wait for one so I bought a mosquito and I love it. The vanadium nozzles are great and switching nozzles with slice’s torque wrench takes what seems like half the time as the v6. I don’t worry about breaking a thermistor wire or having a loose nozzle because everything is rigidly mounted and the heater block doesn’t rotate. I should have done it a long time ago.
The Mosquito is the perfect hotend. Hands down. Combined with a vanadium or better yet, tungsten carbide nozzle, and it will literally print anything with no wear whatsoever. Tungsten is a one and done nozzle. Install it and it will outlast the printer. Nothing scratches it. It eats carbon fiber nylon like candy, no wear at all.
Great Investigation! Thank you!
Still waiting for the bed for my 2.4, then ill be able to finally try my revo micro. I was suprised how fast it heated up, compared to the Dragon SF in my V0.1 build.
Nice vid m8! and yeah - I use first gen Mosquito+Vanadium nozzle and I had to increase temp also around 10C because all that.... otherwise printed parts were too brittle... that wasn't no deal breaker for me after I realized, what were the problem.... and as you asked - do I change to revo - nope, because I have mosquito, which works like a charm... I change nozzles for time to time but not so often, that I must have some rapid change system... and as they say - if it works, don't fix it :D and also - there are too little userbase for revo right now, we as hobby users, can rely on very little data.
I have a mosquito/bmg clone and like it's dimensions (very low in Z) and easy nozzle swap too.
It runs beautifully, never change a running system :D
I love the idea of this hotend, and the price is not that big of a factor, but without tungsten carbide nozzle it's a no go for me because I print a lot with abrasive materials.
Being able to easily change a hot end was what interested myself. Having to do this Hot with two tools isn’t for me, so this looks really good. Thanks Laurie. NZ
I wasn't really sure if I wanted a Revo, after all both my Mini and MK3S+ print perfectly fine with the v6 nozzles. Replacing the nozzle on the MK3S+ isn't that much of a hazzle anymore after I got the right tools (16 mm wrench and torque screwdriver), but I do remove the fan shroud to get easier access which makes it a little more work. I did not replace a nozzle on my Mini yet, mostly because I didn't have to and didn't want to mess with the different style heater block.
That said - I have ordered two Revos now - one Micro for the Mini, because it is supposed to be lighter (not sure if that's still the case with the 2nd revision of the hotend that uses the original fan) which should help with the cantilevered axis.
The second one is a Revo Six replacement for the MK3S+ so I'm able to use the same nozzles as for the Mini, but more importantly because I have seen reports that the Revo nozzles form better tips and need less ramming which will help with MMU2s prints. Since the MMU setup always retracts the filament from the hotend at the end of a print, it's also very convenient to replace the nozzle at any time.
Good review, not from another E3D fanboy. Although 16mm^3/s is nothing, so I hope the HF is at least double that (though it is likely only around 24mm^3/s). And the temperature instability with cooling should be highlighted/tested more
16 mm³/s is for the 0.4mm nozzle. You'll probably be able to push it harder with the bigger sizes.
7:49 I see those Voron parts there Stefan!