Sequential Vs. DSG Transmissions: The Differences Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- ►We made one of the biggest advancements in our motorsports career in 2019-purchasing two Sadev sequential transmissions for our Volkswagen GTI TCR race cars.
Going into the 2018 season, FCP Euro purchased two brand-new Volkswagen GTI TCR race cars from Volkswagen Motorsports. When we bought them, we opted for the standard DSG transmission. They're incredibly reliable and robust, especially for the price. But halfway through the 2018 season, we knew we were at a disadvantage. We simply could not keep pace with the faster factory teams, Hyundai and Honda, that were equipped with Sadev racing sequential transmissions.
It sounds like an easy decision, but it wasn't. We do have to run a company, after all, and maintain the same levels of quality and service our customers have come to expect from FCP Euro after so many years. Because of our (highly) competitive nature, we opted to purchase the gearboxes, and spoiler alert, they're worth every penny.
Index:
00:00 - Intro
00:45 - DSG Gearbox Overview
03:50 - Sequential Gearbox Overview
12:00 - Wrap-Up
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Really liked the new 3D graphics used to explain visually about the subject - great work on the video 😎
Extremely clear and articulate speaker. Excellent video!
Super informative! I've purchased a few things from FCP Euro now and can't recommend them enough. Getting these educational videos are such a nice bonus. Thanks guys!
I'd LOVE a sequential for my '96 850!
Excellent video! Great explanation and the use of graphics made it easy to understand.
Wow. Really impressive, concise explanation. One of the best I've seen yet.
Kinda interesting that you added reverb after the noise cancellation pass to make the voice sound more natural. Nice touch.
Big thumb up from Prague, Czech Republic
Holy cow, yes please I would like to see more about racing gear boxes!
Great video; I learned some things that I had always kind of wondered about...
Wow! Such a great explanation.
enjoyed straight cut gear noise btw!))
Great video Nate. Awesome presentation and content 👍🏾
Shot for this super informative and rare look into TCR cars. Really loved this video.
Thanks, Steffen! Glad you love the video!
great explanation and video. I have a dsg in my audi tt and love it. I was not aware of the difference between it and a sequential gearbox.
Thanks mate, that was really useful explaination.
Thanks for these technical explanations FCP EURO :)
Great video. Good luck with the new toy 🍀
Amazing video. Cool topic explained very very well.
Learned a lot of things from this video. Thank you very much!
Glad you were able to take away some helpful info from the video!
really clear and simple explanation
Torque steer is nothing to do with shaft length by itself, its the difference in cv joint angle because of the different shaft length
Left out one other down side to straight cuts, theyre weaker. They have less tooth engagment than a helical, but they also dont side load the gears and bearings which cost you power but also a lot of heat that you have to deal with. Straight cuts do sound awesome, just wear earplugs.
Great explanation, Thanks! LD71😁
Great video, really liked the entire explanation.
Glad you liked it, Pedro!
Well explained, thanks.
Okay, my thing is that with a sequential you push forward to downshift and pull back to upshift, using the G forces of the car to help you shift. See at 5:00 into video, he is backwards. It COULD be done that way but during braking your body is moving forward making pulling the lever back harder than pushing it forward.
Good call @SpatialDragon , a bit of an oversight on our end! Nate's gotten too used to paddle shifters I guess ;) - Ben
@@fcpeuro Give him the sack
great clip, good job
Thank You!
That was a great detailed explanation of transmissions..... yes you got to do retakes and edit But the end result was A Great explenation of 2 great transmisions Thanks
Thanks! Glad you liked the video!
Great video!
Appreciate it Teddy!
Awesome 👍👍
Awesome vid .....
Wow. Thanks a ton.
@8:47 i didn't get you here! , Do you think that the reason for a quicker engagement is the size? or pneumatic pressure ?? because these clutches are heavy and i think mainly they reduce size to save weight, please correct me if i am wrong
great work!
Thanks, Dragos!
Ones £6000 and ones ££1500 I'd still prefer dsg all day long sequential looks lovely tho great video too 👍
Good and informative. Much better than a lot of wannabe talkalots out there. Liked.
Glad you enjoyed it, more videos like this to come!
Great Video.
What would be really useful is for someone to put together a compatibility guide / reference detailing what DSG Varients are compatible with what engine types starting with mounting points to engine / chassis. Also any coding needed. I have an 2011 EA888 CCBZ gen 2 and looking for replacement DSG but would like know what opions I have other than a straigh DQ250 02E CYZ ? repacement. Really what to get a DQ500 but dont have the above info ? If you can help let me know & I will get intouch.
My 2010 M5 has the SMG. Use in manual mode with the fastest gear change and drive the car hard and it is a dream. Even has rev. matching but if you time the shifts right it is not needed. I very happy with it.
That's awesome, Erik!
I love the sequential gearbox in my motorcycle!
Read More Here: blog.fcpeuro.com/sequential-dsg-transmissions-differences-explained
And
blog.fcpeuro.com/the-definitive-guide-to-the-dsg-transmission
As a career technology education, automotive technology teacher at a high school; this is a valuable article and outstanding educational video. FCP euro is on the suggested sites for all my students professional education. Congratulations to team FCP and thank you.
That Dsg looks like my 2006 Volvo XC90 v8 trans would of love to know what to do if they go bad why and where it all began. But overall great video and well detailed as well!
Man wish we could afford one for our RX8 project..
Hey, quick question?? I've worked with older Hewland race trans with normal style shift lever but wonder in the newer paddle shifter cars if the ignition is momentarily 'killed' to reduce the shock load for the incredibly fast shifts they are known for??
Dan Learned yes ignition cut for upshift and throttle blip for down. Still is very violent.
Hi I have dq250 on my Passat B6 VR6 3.2L. How can I upgrade the engine ,the 4motion and the DSG?
Had a sequential gearbox on my M5. Liked it but shifts were not smooth at fastest shift setting. I believe the Pagani Huayra also has a sequential.
I don't understand a few things. I, and lots of others, ride a motorcycle. Almost all, if not all, use straight cut sequential dog boxes. All of them last the lifetime of the bike. All of them shift smoothly and all of them shift without having to use the clutch. All of them also shift easily, with a feather touch of the shift lever, like a hot knife through warm butter. And finally, I have personally never heard that gearbox whine that people complain about unless i really try to focus on hearing it, it's literally impossible to hear.
Now, i see your 3D presentation and one thing i notice is how tight the dog teeth are shown to be. They are not that tightly packed, on the contrary, they're quite loose. You can mesh one with the other and they can spin one inside the other before the teeth interlock and that's why you can shift without the clutch, and it's not even forcefully jammed.
Also, it's important to note that you can't really shift without the clutch unless you have a way to cut the power momentarily so that the teeth disengage. If you are actually accelerating, not even Thor himself could be able to disengage the shift fork from the gear it's attached to. In the motorcycle world we call it a quickshifter and it's a device that cuts the ignition the moment you shift so the transmission is unloaded and you can shift. It shifts in the single digit millisecond range. We can do this with just rolling off the throttle just a bit at the right time and then rolling on again. I will assume the ECU does this automatically in the car when you pull back the paddle shifter or the lever. That huge gap between each dog tooth and the speed at which they are rotating means that it won't jam onto another tooth but instead fall in between them and at the same time it won't have enough time to decelerate much so that it will hit the tooth with a lot of force. The shifts, on the motorcycle at least, are quite smooth and not at all abrupt like people are making it out to be.
Note that the motorcycle gearbox is the simplest form of the sequential because it needs to be lightweight and compact, for obvious reasons.
So, what makes your gearbox rough and noisy? I honestly want to know, i can't fathom it. Is it the size? Is it the weight? It's definitely not the engine speed, even race cars don't rev as high as superbikes... So, what is it?
Perfect explanation, thank you! Will we ever see a consumer sequential? Kind of like a sequential DSG hybrid for the street.
Why would you want that? There’s no need for such a thing on the streets. Straight cut gears would give you a headache after 10 minutes of driving, maintenance would be too expensive, and DSG’s are already so good. The downshifts being a little delayed when you’re driving aggressively are happening for longevity, a more aggressive tune to the mechatronics is what you need and you’ve got yourself a blast every time you want to have fun.
Why would anybody want a dsg on a daily driver?
This great video explains the differences the really highlight the disadvantages outside of track use.
Saving all that clutch in and out malarkey when your sat in rush hour traffic. All so they are a nice 'box to drive with.
For example it is possible to make a car from Manual to DSG? Should be Different engine or not?
If you do an edit, could you put the computer sim of the DSG changing gears in? It was very clear seeing how the Sequential worked, but there’s nothing (visually) to compare it to… I would love to see the Animation of the DSG working. Great detail otherwise. 👍🏽👍🏽
The Sequential transmission is a larger motorcycle transmission. I kinda surprised the dogs wear out so quickly. Granted the loads are much higher than any motorcycle.
I believe it is because it is being shifted under load without using the clutch. Anyone know if these cars cut the ignition like a quick-shifter on a bike?
No, motorcycles use synchros and not just dogs. Synchros also use dogs, but have rollers or cones to help. A dog only system is just like the dogs in a synchro transmission, but without the rollers or cones. Dogs have to wear out without cones of rollers to help synchronize. It is essentially a non-synchro transmission, and you have to double clutch. You do not double clutch on a motor cycle. All motorcycles use synchro rollers or cones to aid the dogs. None have just dogs.
A motorcycle always uses a standard sequential transmission with synchros and clutch. The only reason there is a paddle-like pedal shifter instead of a more complex shift pattern of a car, on a motorcycle, is that the foot pedal is connected to a rotating shaft with rotating ramps that push the standard gear selector forks back and forth. Otherwise motorcycles use the same standard transmission with synchros that all standard trans cars used before the DSG.
In a standard car trans, the complex shift pattern reduces to just back and forth fork motions as well. There is no real internal difference. The paddle-like pedal motion on a motorcycle is just an external linkage adaptation.
@@kirkaugustin2232 This is simply not true. I've actually rebuilt dirt bike transmissions. They do not have synchros.
craig list this has a ignition cut on upshifts and a throttle blip on down shifts.
how do I put this in my volvo c30?
Dude, 100 lbs. is an insane amount of weight saving!
It really is! Not to mention the drivetrain power loss is less through the Sequential vs DSG.
So I’m no expert and he may have mentioned it in the video but can you put straight cut gears in a trans that’s like, let’s say a regular manual, a dsg, or anything other than that specific sequential. And if so, will it be reliable?
You can put a straight cut gearset in a regular transmission, however, it is not recommended or really necessary for a street driven car. Straight cut gears are extremely noisy and due to the tighter tolerances, they tend to wear faster than normal helical cut gears.
Can you skip gears in the DSG/DCT? If not, doesn't that make it sequential too?
All transmission were and are sequential to a degree, but what makes a DSG different is that you are essentially not just selecting the gear you want to go into, but the next one up as well. Its really like 2 transmissions, and you are pre-synchronizing the next gear, for faster engagement. Thus the added complexity and extra shaft and clutch. When you shift, then actually you are just switching clutches between two pre-engaged gears. Vastly superior. It may not always help much if the pre-selected gear is not useful, but it can be very useful in ideal situations.
Very informative video, but isn't it push up to downshift pull to upshift @4:59?
Idk if you mean this one specifically, but overall, it just depends on how the shift drum is machined and how the shifter attaches to it.
Why don't you need to use the clutch outside of first on a sequential? Does the transmission just brute force itself into gear, even with power coming from the engine?
I'm no expert in the topic but here's what I know. Yes the transmission brute forces itself in gear, even though usually the driver lifts of the throttle briefly while shifting or there is a quickshifter which does the same thing automatically when shifting.
What about the Audi R-Tronic automated transmission?
Hi Michael, the R-Tronic is an automated single-clutch gearbox, not nearly as smooth as a dual-clutch gearbox.
In race cars, push forward to go down, push backwards to go up
You just explained why sequential gearboxes are a bad idea for street cars (quick wear, forceful unsmooth shifts etc). But if thats the case, why are they used in regular street motorcycles? And if they were able deal whith the drawbacks of sequential gearboxes there, why doesnt it work for street cars?
Sequential.. Motorcycle gearbox essentially.. All I have to do is redline and apply pressure to my gear pedal, every time it hits the rev limiter it shifts..
Why does anyone who ever makes a video always start out with “hey guys?"
First: when you push forward you downshift
Second: sequential gearbox don't always has dog engagment..
"you have to build the transmission every 5000km"? My motorcycle has over 50000km & still going strong, has never needed a rebuild.
Why would VW care if someone changed anything inside the DSG box? Its not like its going to void the warranty because it never had one.
B.S Noodleman the reason the are tagged is because this is from a homologated TCR race car. Street car variants are not tagged.
I don't what front wheel drive car hes driving but they still get torque steer with the bracket there will always be more twist on something longer from flex
Standard street car gearbox, has no point of comparison with a real race car gearbox, they're from two different worlds
Ironic t-shirt
I'll stick with the DSG
so basically this is an enlarged motorcycle transmission.
every 5000 km jesus
😅
I've had motorbikes all my life and never had gearbox problems and yes they have dog gears. Take a look at motoGP bikes with 300 hp .. they only use the clutch to take off .. same for modern road bikes with the same tech. So it seems that cars need to catch up .. only by the information you give. I have also driven semi-trailers with 18 speed gearboxes and yes with dog gears .. once one learns how to synchronize the gears with the revs .. easy going up harder going down .. again you don't need to use the clutch. That design of gearbox is virtually indestructible. Great for trucks weighing 42 tonne all up. So DSG is a waste of time and money
or.......buy a manual
So its basically a motorcycle transmission lol.
In a nutshell, yes 😂
Stay away from the DSG transmissions. Expensive to repair. Over $1000 for the mechatronic unit....no thank you. Same goes for the OB5 transmissions. Poor.
One is a real race transmission one is playing pretend.
Sorry, but completely wrong. Sequential is the OLD style of standard transmission, and DSG is the modern RACING transmission. The fact you can also see some racing people going with a beefed up OLD style standard transmission is just a weight consideration, but there no new, better, or faster aspect to it. Clearly the DSG is the newer, better, and faster technology.
The video is also wrong about the gear engagement dogs and straight cut spur gears. Those are not newer, but older, and are reverting back to the old nonsynchro transmissions of the 1930s and 40s. Esssentially gear synchros are also dogs as well, but just have a built in roller or cone to help. What the video is calling a syquential transmission is just without the synchro aids, and is the oldest and most primitive transmission I have seen in over half a century.
In addition, while getting rid of over all weight car weight, reducing rotational weight is NOT an advantage. You WANT additional rotational weight because it stores energy like a battery. While in theory the engine/trans can rev more quickly with less rotational weight, the goal is to accelerate the vehicle, not rev the engine/trans, so removing rotational weight actually is usually counter productive.
And straight cut spur gears are awful. They have so much less surface area, that they have to be much thicker gears, and that makes them have to weigh much more. The only good thing about straight cut gears is that you no longer have to worry about shaft end play or bearing preload, making the trans easier to rebuild.
Again, if you look at a 1930s transmission, it will look almost identical to this sequential transmission.
Is it possible to use this gearbox on a vw golf mk5 r32 awd system?
There may be something similar out there, but this exact one is not compatible with a mk5 r32. It's specific to our MK7 GTI.