Dual Clutch Transmissions: Pros and Cons
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 เม.ย. 2017
- 1) Intro and housekeeping:
This is going to be a fairly in-depth video on gearboxes, so I suggest not watching if you don’t appreciate a certain level of geekery!
First of all, I’d like to say a few disclaimers: the test car in question is a 2011 VW Golf 2.0 TDI with the optional 6-speed DSG3. I have driven other DSGs from the likes of Ford and Audi (7- speed) so therefore can bring a rounded and authoritative opinion.
A dual-clutch is not an automatic gearbox as most dealerships and salesmen will state, this is a simplification of terms to drive sales to uneducated consumers. It is in fact an automated manual gearbox, where the car’s ECU controls the clutch(es). There is one clutch for even gears, and one clutch for odd gears allowing the car to preselect, what it thinks, is the most appropriate upcoming gear.
They were manufactured in order to bring automatism of gear-changing, without the drawbacks of traditional torque-converter automatics of the time. These drawbacks comprised inefficiency, slow changes and blunted performance due to partially unlocked torque converters (equivalent to a slipping clutch). The first time I personally learnt about DSGs was Top Gear’s review of the Audi TT 3.2 Quattro - Clarkson praised its quick shifts and responsive manual override.
We are now going to see the benefits and drawbacks of the DSG.
2) Benefits:
- Smooth shifts;
- Efficiency: explain it hits 5th at 30 MPH and 6th at 40 MPH;
- Shifts are way quicker than a human could achieve with a manual transmission;
- Responsive override. Our car sadly isn’t fitted with paddle shift but the tiptronic function works
well.
- Intelligent mode works well: this car is owned by Grandfather who drives like, well, a grandfather. When I jump into the seat, which is usually of an interval of 2-3 months, it only takes a couple of trips for the transmission to adapt to my more aggressive and youthful driving style.

3) Drawbacks/criticisms:
- Too much difference between Drive and Sport modes. I understand that a 2.0 TDI is meant to be efficiency orientated, but upshifting at 1800 RPM is ridiculous and blunts the driving experience. Also, it’s ironic to say VW is motivated by economy and efficiency - #DIESELGATE. Sport mode on the other hand holds gears too long, keeping the revs at the top end of the rev-range. This would be ideal in a petrol, but not so for a diesel which produces all of its power at the bottom of the rev-range.
- One must upshift 500 RPM before redline in order to achieve best acceleration, as the gearbox bogs.
- Although generally responsive, the gearbox can sometimes be laggy. Because of its short shifting tendencies, if you spot a gap in trafic and wish to accelerate briskly, you must wait for the box to downshift. If the box held gears a little longer in D, it would offer constant torque accessibility. Kick-down is equally slow to respond, meaning use of tiptronic is much better for overtaking. A final point regarding lack is at junctions, there is sometimes a bit of between depressing the accelerator and moving away; this can cause the driver to panic and therefore overcompensate, making for an overly aggressive take-off.
- The ECU and its software can be caught off guard. As mentioned previously, the transmission has one clutch for odd gears, and one clutch for even gears. It predicts which gear to pre-select by judging drivers’ tendencies. E.g you’re in third and gradually accelerating, the gearbox will pre-select 4th. This is fine in 90% of situations. However, if you’re in third and gradually accelerating, then hit kick-down, it will have to move the clutch from pre-selecting 4th to actually selecting 2nd - this does take a bit of time.
- ! At slow speeds on inclines, e.g a steep carpark, this gearbox is simply dangerous. Being an automated manual, the ECU decides when to engage and disengage the clutch. When reversing, uphill, out of a parking bay, the gearbox is slipping and engaging the clutch constantly meaning it’s very, very jerky. In extreme circumstances, one is forced to left-foot brake in order to control the car safely. !
- The engine braking down hills is absurd. If you’re driving down a hill, the transmission will downshift holding the revs at over 3000 RPM - this kills the economy and the NVH levels!
- Reliability has proven to be somewhat of an issue on early VAG cars, the Mk. V GTI is known for its transmission related troubles.
4) Conclusions:
I feel, that DSGs have had their time, and have now become obsolete due to the forced innovations of traditional torque-converter automatics. DSGs forced torque-converter autos to be more competitive, by way of increased efficiency, quicker shifts and greater reliability. A case in point is the universally heralded ZF 8-speed, utilised by multiple manufacturers for its compromise of performance and reliability. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I really love my DSG Jetta
Could not be happier with the DSG in my Renault. Matches well with 1.3 petrol eng.
A very good review of DCT. Just to add if I may two other drawbacks of DCT from my experience. 1. the gearbox tends to hestitate at roundabouts and junctions and does not like to be hurried. Its not very good for quick smooth takeoffs and the car can wheelspin at times. 2. The car tends to jerk in the 1st gear providing very uncomfortable driving experience. In my opinion DCT is not suited for regular city and town driving which is why I rate torque convertors very high as they provide the best allround experience and there is no match to it for refinement and smooth gear changes. Modern torque convertors are brilliant in that there are so fuel efficient like the one in my Vitara. Of course DCT experience will vary in different cars but from my experience it has its limitations in town and city driving and you can't use creep function like you do with torque convertor gearbox as it will wear out the clutch plates and can cause expensive repair work.
Have to say my old Mondeo had a Torque converter and she was smooth as silk and pretty quick too.
How long does a DSG last? I dumped my Acura after 2nd failing rebuilt trans. I have 2014 VW GLI. I don’t beat on it, don’t race it, very conservative. But do have Unitronic stage 1 engine and transmission tune. 170k miles.
The ZFs are also in almost all BMWs with 8-speed automatics. Different models of it ofcourse.
Michael S Yes indeed. The ZF8 really is the ubiquitous modern automatic, and for good reason.
Very informative video thanks,I am about to take ownership of a 2.0 auto DSG Diesel
VW CC from 2008 so will be interesting to see how it handles everyday driving.I would likely be able to do a bit of Intervention if acceleration is required all of a sudden I would expect?
285000 Miles. Same Dual Clutch transmission. No issues. 2007 a3. I had a torque converter auto from a 2000 VW (Aisin). Failed at 175k
Was the A3 a 6-speed or 7-speed? (ie. a DQ250 or DQ200)
the dry clutch in DQ200 is bullshit the car i have, skoda fabia has run 79000 km and is on the way to clutch nr 4
285,000 miles!?!? That's brilliant! Care to tell us the secret and the model of gearbox?
What year were the "newer" torque converter gearboxes used in? Past 2010? Or are you talking past 2015?
comedyman112 The ZF was the first of the “newer” torque converters, which came out with the F10 5 Series, Jag XF and LR Discovery 4 (circa 2010) I would imagine.
You say Diesel DSGs aren't as good for performance than petrol. My 10 year old Audi A3 DSG 2.0 TDI is insanely fast, the diesel gets incredible grip and acceleration that I've never come close to feeling in a car before. It puts my old beloved MK4 Golf Cabrio to shame.
how do they do uphill? I find DSG is quite bad under these conditions
The problem of entering into any experiment with your conclusion already worked into your hypothesis is you will always find a conclusion to support your theory.
It’s long overdue
As you say that a DCT is a automatic operated manual box, is it actually we are encourage or drive more using the tiptronic or manual mode? As people also say that excessive usage of tiptronic or manual mode can cause problems to the box.
Using tiptronic causes no adverse effects. Burning the clutch by hanging uphill using an accelerator like with a regular slushbox does.
In short - start it using accelerator like in a manual (gain at least 5 Mph before slamming the accelerator), drive it in traffic as if it was a manual (don't inch forward "half a foot forward - brake - repeat", don't crawl below 5 Mph for a long time).
A special advice for driving dry-clutch DSG7 in traffic: switch it into "Sport" or "Tiptronic" to keep the gearbox from crawling in second gear at very low speeds. In D it switches to 2nd at 5 Mph and switches back to 1st only at full stop, in Sport it switches to 2nd at 11-12 Mph, in Tiptronic it auto-upshifts to the 2nd gear at rev limiter :-) .
Slightly jerky 3-2-1 downshifts while coming to a stop in Sport are normal, it's caused by engine braking like in manual, while in Drive it starts "riding a clutch" for smoother deceleration.
@learn2 farm Yes that could also be because once you get used to driving Automatics, driving a Manual is very difficult.
This is helpful. 😊 What about low speed, i.e. parking situations? Jerky or smooth? Considering it maybe for a diesel Scirocco.
Smooth unless on gradients, e.g reversing uphill out of a parking bay is really tricky as the clutch is automatically engaging and disengaging so can be very difficult to modulate.
Rob Booth Automotive Thanks for your reply. Do you know why it disengages going backwards and uphill? It seems strange to me.
It's technically riding the clutch, just in a fairly jerky way.
Rob Booth Automotive: Thanks! It's 50-50 chance that I go for DSG, depends on the vehicle as a whole package.
jldude84 Thanks for your input. I see some benefits and some risks. The car as a whole might decide when that day comes. My choices leave very limited number of cars to choose from, even if imported from Germany.
Is this video implying that I would be unwise to change my current MK7 manual Golf 1.4TFSI for the 'Auto' version due to left knee problems now affecting clutch operation?
If I did choose a direct replacement how would I use the DSG say on a long incline coming up to a T junction on a hill. Currently I creep forward then stop and put gearbox in neutral and Autohold holds indefinitely until such time as I release my clutch whereupon I get perfect hill start until the next hold up.
Would one also use Autohold on the DSG car to hold the car stationary and then presumably pressing the throttle releases the brake an the car moves forward smoothly - or does it? OR does one sit there with the foot on the foot brake until such time that the traffic in front of me moves off?
This may not directly answer your question, but people say not to creep with the DSG. This mostly refers to when you keep your foot on the brake and slowly release/ride. In my MK6 DSG GTI, I can let go of the brake, and move forward in traffic as needed. It's just the right speed. On a hill, it pretty much works like an automatic, and will generally not require you to immediately give some throttle. If you are worried about stalling, the DSG doesn't. If you are worried about rollback, I have only experienced rollback once or twice, and it wasn't anything scary. Very slight, if not unnoticeable to most people. Think of the DSG as an automated-manual, but remember that it has the perks of each respectively.
@@liamphillips2918 i've experienced the rollback every time on any kind of uphill. I must say the regular 6 speed auto does better in this regards
how reliable ? Do you need to replace the clutch once in a while like a manual? I have 2013 Veloster that I got last October and it has DCT. So far I love it, prefer it over automatic.
Sorry if it's been addressed....but can you leave it on automatic 24-7 and not damage trans....I know I'd be losing fun factor but I care most about least amount of maintenance
It's brilliant in the Kia Niro hybrid. In sport mode it's quick off the line.
I've heard the South Korean ones are excellent, and also benefit from being a good few years newer with better software.
That’s good to hear as I test drive a Kia Niro hybrid a month ago and I found I great in town and on a long straight road . I was wary as this is going to be my first auto as I’ve driven only manuals over the years.
I stopped when you stated that dual clutch might become obsolete :D
Take your automatic gearbox to the Swiss mountains or elsewhere in the Alps and experience by yourself how terrible this type of transmission can be to drive!
Crossed the alps twice last summer in a Peugeot with the EAT8 automatic and it was definitely not terrible.
I have the Ford Focus equivalent and it is very lumpy to drive low down. I catch it out on approaching a roundabouts all the time or I used to. When approaching a roundabout you are usually going down the gears but if there is a gap and you want to accelerate into it you catch it by surprise and it has to think for a second or two before going back up the gears. I now slap it across into sport at junctions and roundabouts just because it is smoother and quicker. Sometimes I can put it into reverse and it will be a good 5 seconds before It selects it. I have a diagnostic computer and it even comes up there as a fault on the reverse gear. :(
That's a nightmare regarding reverse, what year is your Focus? I agree with sport, I sometimes slap it across too so it holds the higher gear. I'd be very interested to see how a 2017 DSG behaves.
It is a late 09 Titanium. Not had it long it feels like I am driving a very fast van. ;)
I just bought a 2013 Focus SFE with a DCT and it takes some getting used to. I've drove manual transmission in a lot of different cars and the characteristics are similar I think. It's been fun to drive so far.
I have a 2014 Mondeo with the DCT and I always encounter that jolt when approaching roundabouts. I might start doing your trick of going into sport mode. But can you explain to me how it actually makes a difference?
Thanks!
The PowerShift (aka PowerShit) dry clutch is a dog. Not only performs poorly as you describe, but subject to significant reliability (total failure) issues from oil leaks onto the dry clutch. So much so that the regulator here in Australia has fined Ford $10M (max they can) and put in place an assessment process for full refunds. www.accc.gov.au/media-release/court-orders-ford-to-pay-10-million-penalty-for-unconscionable-conduct. There is also an ongoing class action, with not all consumers being eligible for the ACCC process. We have been offered a full refund at original purchase price. Trying for some more for the massive inconvenience, but that may not happen.
I have a vw caddy 140bhp manual 6speed.wanting to replace it but the new caddy that's out is only available now in dsg and for that reason I'm keeping to my old van as dsg over all are more expensive to maintain and boy when they go wrong ££££££££££££¥¥
cool
Modern automatics definitely have come a long way my dad's Mk7 has a traditional automatic and it's as smooth and almost as quick as the DCT in my Mk5 Jetta
100% - I'm looking at M240is and the ZF8 speed is fantastic. My dad's 2003 E class gearbox is so slow and lethargic in comparison
Ecu does not control the shifting. There's a seperate control unit (TCU).
Thanks for the clarification!
how reliable is it?
I use the paddle controls in my TTS, drive mode is useless when you need it, it short shifts big time, about 35 mph and its in 6th!
Sport mode hangs on to the gears too much for every day driving.
But its brilliant to drive in manual mode, much prefer it over traditional manual gearbox, very easy and so rapid if you want it.
i have a porsche 718 boxster from 2018
pdk ofc
it can shift to 6th gear at 32mph lol
and 7th gesr at 44mph
saves fuel a lot
i dont have any complaints about it short shifting like that tbh
when i floor it in sport, it goes from 7th to 2 gear so quickly at 60mph.
I have a 2020 A3. My first Audi DSG. I still prefer an actual manual that I control, but I agree that it is really great in M mode. I have noticed if I shift down from 3-2, it struggles at a stop, but if I coast to a stop in 3rd it is fine. Is yours the same? I can get it to shift smoothly into 1st from 2nd with a gentle reduction of pressure on the brake pedal as it stops, but if not it shifts harshly, presumably having to quickly get from 3 to 1. Any thoughts or tips?
@@morgandrives The only tip really is if you know you are comming to a stop just put it in neutral and take the gearbox out of the equation, saves all those unnecessary down shifts and wear and tear
@@caominh2874 I dont know what size engine in that porche but in mine I find when it upshifts too soon it loses so much responsiveness, it will kick down if needed but thats a lot of drama just for a bit of extra response
@@paulstevens9409 Thanks for replying! I have not used neutral as I thought it would cause trouble if I had to put it back in gear while moving. But I see what you are saying - if I know I will be stopping I could do it. Thanks again. 👍
Would love to know your comments on a DSG, reversing, up a hill.... How do you find it. To me, its like a teenager learning to drive, slipping the clutch, over revving. I have a 09 Passat R36, and reversing up a hill is horrible, but apparently quite normal to be horrible. Have you experienced this, and are the later models of the DSG's similar? I guess its not that common for most people to ever need to reverse up a hill, so maybe most people would never have experienced it. Let me know!
I have had the privilege of being in an R36 estate once before - what a car! Yes, this car really struggles with reversing at slow speeds, can very much feel the clutch slipping - it's quite excruciating.
@@RobBoothAutomotive do you find it to also be the case when driving uphill. I have MK6 TSI DSG and I find driving it uphills at lower speeds really unappealing
I have a mark 5 r32. use your handbrake, instead of your brake to balance your clutch.
@@slightlyjaded8098 Handbrake is electronic in an R36, and no clutch - its a DSG Automatic.
@@JB-NZ It has a clutch, you just don't get to play with it directly. The reason I prefer to use the hand brake instead of the normal brake is to remove the chance of inadvertently tripping the launch control.
Can you imagine being in a mile long queue when road works are being carried out, two lanes converging into one, now normally we try to be polite and allow ever second car to encroach on "our" lane,'cause we are in the "correct lane", but
since you have a dual clutch trans and you are advised not to "creep' 'cause that aint good, riding the clutch to crawl forward, so what happens? you leave a big space so that you can move up without too much slippage, but guess what! every time you do it, somebody next door says gee thanks and fills "your spot" , no need to say that nobody in your lanes moves forward but everyone in the other lane slots in and everyone behind you has a desire to "kill you".
john brown You should submit that to a short story competition - the narrative qualities were gripping!
Rob Booth Automotive, Err Thank you. i will bear that in mind.
@SuperDukka Ask Robb ??? I will avoid DCT's like the plague.
I went from dsg to a zf8 gear box in a Bmw it was so slow compared to a dsg
I chose manual because i was taught to drive in a manual and whilst i am not knocking DSG for what it is, me personally i care about total car control not a computer doing it for me, compare it to an airline pilot flying the latest Fly By Wire airliner , he or she still needs to know the basics of flight
Put it in manual mode, and it's shockingly similar to driving a stick. I kind of love mine after having rowed my own for the past 26 years.
I am thinking of getting an Octavia TDi VRS 4x4 with the the 7spd DSG. I only tested an A3 prior 10 years previously with the 2ltr TDi and I found it very sluggish but the Oct should be much faster and more improved.
And just to add, I drive in a “spirited” manner 😉
It's not so much the clutch or the gearbox. It's more the dual mass flywheel. They are not as strong as they should be. I've had 2 failures and it always toasts the clutch.
So if it’s not auto then why do the gear change without you changing them? That’s what automatic means
Haha it's semantics! "Automatic" typically refers to a torque-converter auto, whereas a DSG is an "automated manual". Cheers for watching.
Cumbersome automatics have a torque converter and a planetary gear set system. Gears are not preselected in automatic. A dual clutch is a manual transmission that uses two clutches in order to engage even or odd gears and the shifts are lightening fast. Essentially “automatically” shifting a manual transmission
My DSG in vw golf petrol TSi is shite, I prefer my old CT200h personally.
Is the Nissan GT-R a Dual clutch also ?
Yes, with 6 speeds.
@@RobBoothAutomotivevw golf 5 2007 automatic gearbox 2.0 tdi.what is the best 6 speed or 7 speed?thnx
Not a fan of the dsg s tronic in my 17 Audi A3. Not very smooth and first gear feels terrible. Dealership said everything seems normal. First gear will jump right before it shifts to 2nd
how many gears does it have? 6 or 7?
@@shawnshan9817 6
@@DarinDziergas Didnt you test drive it prior to your purchase?
Why is it not "automatic"? Please tell me.
The term “Automatic” generally when people think a car is automatic it is a torque converter transmission which works using hydraulic fluid and centrifugal forces to drive that fluid out into fins which then connect the gearbox to the fly wheel hence when you take your foot off the brake the car begins moving forward immediately and you can control this movement with brake pressure
A DCT/DSG/PDK/Dual clutch is all the same just branded differently
That essentially is two manual gearbox stuck together, one clutch for odd gears and one for even gears the clutches pressure is controlled based on brake pedal pressure and a host of other variables hence when you remove your foot off the brake there is a slight delay before the car starts moving as that is when the car know to release the clutch pedal and engage the gearbox. In traffic and in uphill situations the load is greater on the gearbox so this is why “creeping” is very bad for a DSG as you are essentially dragging your clutch as you would in a manual if you were to keep the clutch at its bite point and use the brake to keep the car moving or stationary
engine braking does not increase fuel consumption.
biggest no go for me is that you still have a clutch that can quickly wear out...taking off on hills, lots of stop and go or pulling a trailer still quickly wears out the clutch... modern AT transmissions with torque converter work very well... forget about 0-60 or "slow" shifts... bullshit argument
I agree to a certain extent. As I say in my video, modern torque converters are a much better proposition in everyday situations. You must however appreciate that when DSGs were first launched, traditional automatics were pretty slow and inefficient. Arguably, the biggest benefit to come from DSGs is that they forced manufacturers to improve torque converter automatics - it pushed innovation which benefits us, the consumers. Cheers for watching!
I do a lot of stop and go traffic every day.. i would like to have comfortable and wear free transmission...so at the moment for example I can not buy a VW because they only offer DSG transmissions...changing a clutch and dual mass flywheel on a modern car costs a fortune.. changing ist on a DSG transmission costs 2 fortunes
Fair enough! Would be interesting to see how long DSGs will be around for.
@@bobl78 it depends on manufacturer some autos suck ass but everyone doing dual clutch for mpgs i guess so they claim
"Automated manual", because it has clutches? :). If it can shift gears without driver intervention, then it's automatic. With or without torque converter or clutch. "They" are not saying anything wrong, you're just splitting hairs. Also, I would've liked to hear your opinion on reliability and maintenance cost and intervals.
hard to explain to a tool such as yourself
@@shawnshan9817 Insightful opinion, thanks.
Of course it’s an automatic. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck. This thing shifts automatically, so it is an automatic.
The thing I’ve got against DSG’s is the number of wearing parts. They have all the many parts of a synchromesh manual, such as hubs, selectors plus the mechatronics the guess what the next ratio is going to be and shifts the synchro on the idle shaft, often several times more than a driver would and in the background so the driver doesn’t even know that it’s doing it. Then there’s the clutch. Forget the dry clutch type, because it is over complicated, prone to abuse and heating excessively.
Mk-6 not Mk-sex. lol
Neelesh Rambally Where did you hear that?
@@RobBoothAutomotive you did say mark sex lol dont have to be a shy englishman were just havin a laugh hahahah 0:33
This fellow is driving the car and rattling out mumbo jumbo. When did a DCT become Automated Manual Transmission. The former is highly sophisticated whereas an AMT is fairly crude in technology.
I agree, I'd take the video down but the ad revenue pays for my afterwork pints. Thanks for watching (and for the adsense).
@@RobBoothAutomotive It actually is an automated manual in bare terms. The "automated Manual" that we normally talk about is literally a normal manual with automation, and it generally comes out pretty crappy. But this is a gearbox that has manual technology that is automated, so it is also an automated manual. Just not in the sense we normally call use it.
there are no pro with dual clutch. theres only cons that is why they getting rid of them now
Interesting but why do we have to listen to all that background noise. would have been a better presentation to give the talk and only .add the car bits when required. Not a well thought out presentation.
Its bad for bad peoples.
That has got to be the most awful peace of music I've ever heard at the beginning.
Please don't do that again lol
Don't know, it's a toss up between that and Heavy Metal for the worst. Though Rap is pretty awful too, oh wait, you said music. In that case yes; without a doubt the piece at the beginning of this.
Apeman Jones
Yeah boiii
A brown diesel golf estate. Sexy..not
And I take my Grandads car and drive like a twat!
He now drives my car like a tw*t haha!
Dry dual clutch, the worst transmission ever..
@learn2 farm Yours Veloster turbo? what year?
"Quite geeky" eh. A dual-clutch transmission IS an AUTOMATIC transmission that uses solenoid actuators instead of torque converters. What a FAKER!!
Thanks
No it uses clutch plates instead of a fluid flywheel torque converter. Don't insult people with your stupidity. It is a computer controlled manual gearbox.
stephen richards And what is the computer doing? Correct! It's automating.
It takes the role of the gear stick away from the driver and does with solenoids operating the manual gear select rods. Not the same as an automatic gearbox which takes all control from the driver. So no gear changing rods, no paddle controllers
stephen richards Only because it uses the same transmission as a manual doesn't mean it is manual.
manual: (of a device) operated or controlled by hand, rather than automatically or electronically.