Why Prusa is the next Blackberry
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I love Prusa...which is why I'm hard on them. I don't want them to slip into obsolescence! What do you think Prusa needs to do to stay on top?
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Bambulab P1S - bit.ly/44D99Ub
Bambulab X1C - bit.ly/450GVCV
Prusa mk4 - bit.ly/3rKcLpm
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The one thing Prusa still will hang on to over nearly every other major printer company is their EU manufacturing. It doesn't matter to most people, but it does for some. Personally I appreciate seeing Prusa stay true to its roots and move even more of its manufacturing to the Czech Republic. Its not enough to be the sole reason I would choose Prusa, but it is good to see.
Totally agree... Prusa is a company that matches my own personal ethical/moral standards. They don't churn out crap, they maintain clear upgrade paths and serviceability over long periods of time. My Mk4 will still be running for ages even if they do go out of business thanks to (almost) everything being open source. Bambu are taking the Apple approach which means servicing your own machine is a nightmare and you can only buy parts from them. I think Bambu will light a fire under Prusa and we are going to see some speedy core x/y machines in the near future (they already exist but are tied to Prusas print farm tech which is aimed at large businesses, it won't be hard for them to make them consumer friendly).
@@andy_warb My XL was crap, so I can't agree with your statement "they don't churn out crap." I was a HUGE Prusa fan before the XL, but they rushed it out to try and compete with Bambu in the multicolor market. I told so many people over the years "it just works" when talking about Prusa. But before I sold my XL my wife made a sticker for it that said "it just WONT work" lol. I really wanted to love the XL, but it was the most unreliable printer that I had used in years.
The problem is they spent almost 5 years ***ing around llamas, barely improving their stuff meanwhile the competitors are absolutely incapable of innovating and just copy the leader. If a timeline when Bambu didn't show up, year is 2030 and the Prusa Mini still hasn't got power panic
@@andy_warb Prusa has done like apple, not innovating.
There are plenty other opensource machines that absolutely DESTROYS prusas machines, VzBoT, Annex and Voron just to name a few.
This too will become a disadvantage as europe continues to increase labor and energy costs.
Multicolor isn’t the main use case for the multi head system I believe. I work in prototyping and research and this printer would be extremely useful for multi-material type parts. For example, we print in one material for the part and we print the supports in dissolvable material.
Exactly. People who want to make multi-coloured decorative items would be much better served by a printer that could colour filament as it goes (ex., by mixing pigments into white filament, or by making a pass with an inkjet head after each layer). And that would probably have a lot more mass appeal than a printer that's 50% faster.
Multi-head printers are mainly for combining different materials.
“Would be useful”. Didn’t buy one?
Also work in a business with rapid prototyping. What type of Print would need 5 different materials? I could see it using 3 at most. Something like PET-G + TPU for a gasket and PVA dissolvable supports.
@@andyt1313 4k for that makes it infeasible. Something can be useful as a product, but prohibitive due to other factors, such as cost.
Ultimaker had multi-material soluble support 6 years ago. Nobody cared.
Here is what I want to see from prusia: a smaller xl, fully enclosed, heated chamber, air filtration, dual head (either tool swapping or fixed) that's it. Can still cost more than others but at least I get the same features.
they should do 2 tool heads each connected to its own "ams" type system so while one is printing the other can be purging and getting ready to go and drastically reduce swap time and if each ams can hold 4 or 5 colors than you essentially have a 10 color print so the benefits of the mutli tool head with the benefits of 2 ams systems. And they would need to have their slicer be able to tell you which colors go in each slot for optimal efficiency based on your sliced print. even if that means you have the same common color in both ams's.
I agree, but I think it should be 3 heads rather than 2. An IDEX can do 2, so this would give it a USP over an IDEX. 3 heads would allow you, for example, to do 2 material, plus support material. IMHO there's not a lot of point in a 2 head toolchanger, as an IDEX can swap heads way quicker than a toolchanger, with way less complexity
@@EddyStyl3sYou still have an enormous amount of waste.
@@EddyStyl3s I was thinking the same thing. color changes don't need to add more time.
@@EddyStyl3sOMG, I had the exact same idea 2 days ago! An Index pinter with 2 toolheads and 2 "AMS" systems is the best of both worlds. Fast and efficient printing at dual color, capable of multi material (PLA + TPU for example) and it can print fast multi color for more than 2 colors.
I think the first problem with the XL is that it has been widely accepted as a Bambu AMS competitor, when I think it is more accurate to compare it to something like the E3D toolchanger. The toolchanger was a similar price to the XL, and it could that price because there was nothing else with the same capability. That said, the E3D Toolchanger was also just a motion system, not a ready to use printer.
Well - The problem is that the XL, while it is a great idea, has some problems.
First of all is the market. While the "standard" Prusa was rather expensive, it still appealed to the "home" market. It was just affordable enough, to say that reliability justified the price. That's still the case, but it's far less relevant. Other printers like the Bambulab printers took a big chunk out of the market share.
The XL is maybe a great machine, but it also has a great high price. The Bambulab X1 Carbon is slower, spills a lot of material, and is not capable of printing mixed printing materials. However - It has one huge big advantage. It is just at the right side of the border of being affordable for the "home" market. The Prusa XL is way out of league in this respect. Most people that are just capable (and justify for themselves) to afford a Bambulab X1, are not capable to afford a XL, and thus are not tempted to buy one.
Do not underestimate the size of that "home" market. It's the segment where majority of the models from Prusa where sold, and the biggest source of income. Other manufactures have eaten away that most profitable market. That far cheaper A1 series printers from Bambulab have taken a big chomp out of that market. By the way - I am no Bambulab lover, but facts are facts...
And then of course the XL had some big problems. Problems you should not expect from printers at this price point. That was very damaging for the image of the Prusa printer line without any doubt. Prusa always stood for quality and reliability. Sadly that image now is damaged...
That's just technical minutiae. It is for all intents and purposes a Bambu X1 Carbon competitor. Even prusa fanboys who claim the tool changer can be used for lasercutting and CNC will never use it for those purposes and are just using it for multi-color, sometimes multi-material prints.
@@paranoidpanzerpenguin5262Yeah - The problem with that is that the XL could be a Bambulab X1 Carbon competitor, but it's far to overpriced to actually be that. Most people with a average income (the majority of buyers) can afford a X1 Carbon if they put some some effort in it. The XL? Nope - Far too expensive for that group. And that group is by far the biggest 3D printer buyers group. You can buy 2 X1 Carbon machines with 4 color change units for the price of one XL, and then even have enough money left to compensate for years and years of spilled filament. And I am not even speaking about the cheaper P1S machines here that even have a enclosure for that price...
As said - I am not a Bambulab fanboy (I use them as an example here), but I really wonder what market is targeted by the XL. If it is the professional market, then you have competitors that are maybe somewhat higher priced, but have the advantage of on-site maintenance and more. If it's targeted at the average consumer market.... Well see the remarks above...
@@paranoidpanzerpenguin5262 I think you are underestimating what you can do with multi material and that if the bambu can't do that its not even close to being a competitor. If ya don't design yourself, and only print PLA I would recommend Bambu. But as soon as you design parts yourself, the freedom of multi material is soo much worth it! I don't think people realize yet how good support is with incompatible materials. I've had some seasoned 3D printers ask me how I was able to make parts that look so good on all sides XD.
I uploaded a small vid of my very first try on a big part (that would not even fit on a Bambu btw) th-cam.com/video/ZPMs6VDKU08/w-d-xo.html
This test still had the wrong top support patern, Changing it to linear will make bottom and top look almost the same and it becomes hard to tell what orientation the part was printed.
@@AcEkrystalI am not sure you understand that the M in AMS is material. I have multiple materials loaded on my AMS and that is exactly what I use it for, I don't print multi color I print multi material.
Definitely forgot to mention the best thing about this printer, it’s the fact you can print tpu with pla supports with a petg body, something you litterally couldn’t do with a x1c
Yeah, like a .01% use case.
You actually can, it's just not recommended to run TPU in the AMS, I personally have - just can't be crazy soft.
@Jwmbike14 I tried Geetech tpu spec 95A in the AMS, and it absolutely jammed up. Didn't even make it to the extruder, and i had to dismount the ams to pull it from the tubes. The Filament itself prints like a charm from the external spool holder. So I don't recommend even trying that.
@@smps_enthusiast5391 Have you tried "high speed tpu"? I had a lot of success with it when I had a bowden setup.
@@smps_enthusiast5391Nor do best practices from Bambu recommend using TPU in an AMS
The Bambu experience is absolutely amazing… until you need product support. Once that happens, you will remember why you loved Prusa so much.
I love my P1s. 200+ hours and only one filament jam so far. The printer is amazing!
@@fivepointeightnate I was on a very similar roll of success… and then, I wasn’t and it took Bambu more than three weeks to even answer the support ticket. It got worse from there.
@@fivepointeightnate I got a MK4 end of last year. 1700+ hours and no filament jam so far. I believe both printers are almost equally reliable. The difference is, one is a closed system from China, the other is a more open one from the EU. Bambu is out crushing the competitors with certainly good products, but an aggressive price structure. I opted to keep Prusa alive for what they've done in the past and not give it to China, but it was a hard decision knowing what I could get for less money.
Jap bambu’s support is atrocious…
Agreed! I waited 2 weeks for an answer from bambu. But i know it's just growing up issues as they have been too successful and support is good when they finally react to a ticket.
Still waiting for a company to come out with a way to reuse all the wasted filament without having to build my own version.
There is a guy making a print head that uses pellets rather than filament. Recycling would just be grinding up the poop from the bambu and printing it with the printer you have that head on. Can't remember the guy's TH-cam channel but he just put out a new video. If he does a Kickstarter once he has it ironed out I'd get one for my mk3 and recycle the poop with that. Pellets is what plastic is before turned into filament so it's 25% of the price, which is the main advantage, not recycling.
@@exodous02you must mean Greenboy3D
@@pinkpanther8427 yeah, that's him. I just didn't have time to look up his name, my shift at work was about to start when I posted that comment
CNC Kitchen made a filament recycler. The Artme3D video. Haven't watched but he always has good content
There are off the shelf filament extruders, put most are expensive and don't make sense unless you are printing a lot. There are also quite a few DIY ones, but obviously those have their own issues.
You have forgotten an important point:
When it comes to multi-material prints, it makes a big difference whether the material comes from one hot end or from different ones. If it comes from one hot end, layer adhesions in the Z-plane of the material change are much worse (even if a lot of purging is done).
This does not happen with a printer like the Prusa XL or IDEX printers. This has an enormous influence on the strength of a component.
This means that the target group is not so small, but is aimed at all people who want to print multi-materials and have certain strength requirements.
In a printer mainly built for PLA use being open framed why would it matter haha "I have the toughest PLA print" isn't worth buying a $3500 printer IMHO. Until they close that monster up and heat it for decent materials I don't see the purpose.
You exactly describe a TINY niche application. From all 3d printers in the world not even 0,001% are regularly used to print multi material. Its super niche.
@@m4ko288 i disagree i work with industrial printers and all of them use multilateral for supports and I thing that's where prusa are looking in terms of customers since 4k for a printer is quite cheep in comparison to industrial printers.
@@m4ko288 I never got the allure of AMS, MMUs and whatnot. If you are part of the main demographic that uses these machines often, than part strength is what is important and you will likely just use a single-material with at most maybe a single colour change for text/indicators at the top/bottom. If you are interested in figurines then painting resin prints makes way more sense than using a FDM. And for silly stuff there are a lot of things that just print the old-fashioned way with parts that slot into each-other.
Look at any maker that uses 3D-Printers often including those with YT channels and you will find none of them actually using these kinds of systems in their projects. Just single-material prints.
Genuine need for Multi-Material seems reserved for when you need to mix properties within the context of Engineering (advanced niche use) OR need a machine that can do a job where numerous parts are manufactured with some having a different material. Like the time cost of it swapping nozzles is acceptable for being able to set & forget a single massive job.
@@chielvoswijk9482 If you dont understand the MASSIVE advantages of an ams ... then you might not be the smartest cookie in the jar.
1. It will automatically swap to a new spool if one slot goes empty if you want to.
2. Having 4 colors / 4 different materials always loaded saves a lot of time and hassle.
3. You NEVER have to heat up the nozzle to remove the filament - its always automatically unloaded.
4. Swapping out a filament in the AMS takes 5 seconds. Its MUCH faster and more convenient then traditional printers.
Handling the printer goes from "caveman mode" to "welcome to the future". MUCH easier and faster handling.
Multi material and multi color are only the icing on the cake. The actual AWESOMENESS is in how you handle the printer and the filament. NEVER AGAIN do you have to worry "will that roll have enough material on it?" and NEVER AGAIN will you have to fiddle around with the printer just to swap out a roll. And you can have 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 rolls loaded - kept in the humidity controlled AMS - thats SO convenient.
I rarely do big color prints. I mostly just print coasters / labels / etc where there are only very few color swaps. With almost no waste at all. White plant labels with colorful text for tomatoes / carrots / etc were the last of such prints. They look awesome - and it didnt even add 1% of waste and print time.
I would NEVER EVER buy another 3d fdm printer without an AMS.
If Prusa brought out a fully enclosed tool changer with active chamber heating and linear motors, I would throw my money at them way faster than Josef could catch it.
The XL is already very pricey. If they add all those extra's, how many people you think can afford such a machine? Even a real enthusiast has problems justifying a expensive XL, and people from the "home market" (the biggest source of income for Prusa, like it or not) are already driven away to the cheaper printers like the X1 Carbon.
Such a printer with such a price point could appeal to the professional market, but there are already very high quality professional printers available in that segment. While I get the appeal, I think it would be a bad move for Prusa to price themselves out of their most profitable market segment (if that's not already the case to be honest).
Voron 2.4 and the Tridex offer those functions for over a year now
@@jclosed2516 True, but there is a market segment for things like that. I'd probably pay around 5000 Euros for something like that, and I know that I am not the only one. :)
the proforge 4 exists, its just a smaller company with worse software, a competent person can work around that
Where I work I use the Prusa mini and Bambu Carbon with the AMS. The Bambu is fast and precise and the AMS takes some of the worry off of running out of filament half way through a large print. It's ability to handle higher temps and or more exotic filaments is fantastic. The Prusa mini is smaller, slower, quieter and generally reliable. Plus you don't normally need a glue stick for most prints. What I feel should be stressed more then it is , is the fact that the Prusa being open source means you don't have to worry about what you already OWN and paid for suddenly being put behind a subscription pay wall. The Bambu on the other hand has all the elements already in place for that to happen. When your machine is purposely made to favor having an internet connection over anything else says alot to me. The Bambu is nice but I will always look on it with an eye of suspicion expecting for that to happen. Too many other companies have done just that with their products.
All stuff I buy, I want to own. And work without being connected to the interwebs.
Especially of those Interwebs servers are in China.
I definitely understand the concern, but, to be fair, Bambu has made efforts to address it. It is now possible to root the X1 (well, it is still beta, but it is coming) and install an alternative, open source software on it. This was made with Bambu Labs who made the option available in their software so you do not have to hack it to jailbreak it. Before that, they updated their software to allow the printers to run without communication with their servers, and released the parts of their slicer that had to be open when they were called upon by the community for using Prusa slicer code and not releasing it.
I do not try to paint Bambu Labs as benevolent, but I think they understand that openness is important to the 3D print community and helps their business. If they understand that it is in their interest, there's a good chance that they will continue in that direction. Likewise, if Josef Prusa gets tired of this gig and decides to go build personal flying saucers or some other invention, the company, or any private equity firm that will have taken it over, may change its policies and decide that openness is no longer in their interest. Nothing is future proof.
@@jacquesgilbert2774 ask how happy the owners of the Microsoft Zune are with their device.
Oh, you cant.. Because Microsoft pulled the plug on Zune, and that bricked all the devices.
Anythong that works only as long as the servers are knline has a finite end date. The day they sell less than costs of servers upkeep, your device gets bricked.
The Prusa Mk4 you buy now will work until no more parts on the market, not the day they stop making parts.
@@jacquesgilbert2774 Couldn't agree more
Theey didnt have a choice. Either they agreed to the Jailbreak and looked good at the eyes of the few TH-camrs that were strongarming them, or they didn't agree and looked bad to everyone. Choose your poison. They released a blocking Firmware update same week that said it loud and clear, they don't want to be jailbroken. @@jacquesgilbert2774
Im a HUGE Prusa fan and have a MK4 with a Prusa Enclosure, so I say this with all the love in the world:
*They need to get it together*
I was a bit concerned about the MK4 being a bedslinger, but the real world results are still great. I knew that the software was a bit behind when I got it and expected them to play catch-up but it hasnt really happened as fast as I would have liked. I have faith that it will, but the XL seems like the main focus right now.
The machine is lacking a whole lot of features that come standard on significantly less expensive machines, from cameras to enclosures to even just basic lights. With IS, the speed is fine though.
However, the competition DOES have some issues too. I work with some NDA projects, so I cant go with Bambu in good conscience. Reliability can be a concern with other brands, etc. Bambu shook up the industry, which is fantastic imo, but while a lot of other brands are pushing out some machines with amazing features at amazing prices (like the early bird price on the QIDI Q1 Pro) it feels like I overpaid for my MK4.
I still dont regret it and I dont really mind paying *more*, but there is a huge gap there that is only going to get wider.
I see potential in the MK4 beyond what it is now, which is still a stellar machine as it is, but a lot of times it feels like I am part of a beta test when Im trying to do things like get octoprint to work or just add lighting to the workspace without paying extra for some kit.
I changed my ringtone to the modem dial-up sound and I either get a WTF look or a giggle.
So having 5 print heads is just stupid, yea it’s quicker than filament changes but there’s so much more that can go wrong. At this point prusa is overpriced trash. Old tech and high prices.
Nice! Hardly any-baudy understands that anymore. 😆
Most ppl are too young to even know what that is anymore.
@@bobp3738 Or the sound of an old teletype machine.
What's a ringtone?
I believe Prusa is doing a slow, but steady pivot to a B2B model, which would show why they are lagging in the consumer market. Businesses with privacy concerns don't like Bambu spyware sending their gcode, and a european company is something that will offer better support than a chinese one.
You can see it with their Prusa Lab videos, they're all highlights of how they are making big moves in the B2B space, replacing what Ultimaker used to be, but catching up at the consumer/prosumer market much more slowly.
Literally you just described blackberry and their descent to a T.
That make sense. That would make it like a Dell or a HP analogy where they started in the consumer market but then Moved to the server market which is more lucrative.
I have one printer from a dutch company that went into B2B... and so it left me as a consumer stranded. They occasionally send me newsletters, but it's not for me any more.
Moving from consumer to B2B is a downgrade. You need to be much better to compete on the consumer market
@@ZURAD the dutch company got more expensive and made bigger printers. They had been in a sturdy frame with a fixed bed (on a z axis) before and after their transition.
But well, when they decide to move away from me with their product lineup, I'm off. That's how it is.
i think the XL can be a gamechanger if they implement software that allows for different size nozzles to print one and the same object. Infill and supports will be done with a 0.8mm nozzle, low detail areas on the outside will also be done in 0.8 or 0.6 mm and the high detail areas will be done with 0.4 or even 0.2 mm, possibly even going down to 0.1mm layer hight to ensure great details while the infill etc. gets added at 0.3mm every third layer or maybe even 0.6mm every sixth layer. This would result in huge prints with incredible details, like when printed with a 0.2mm nozzle alone, but in a fraction of the time. Might be a big gamechanger for professionals who are selling detailed prints. Also They might be able to add different types of tools that could pick up and insert magnets or similar items into the prints allowing a kind of automatic assembly of mechanical parts into the printed object. The possibilities are quite limitless if you start to think about it.
The XL was not a response to Bambuu. Prusa announced it before Bambuu launched their X1 campaign.
Yeah it's silly youtubers don't brush up on the facts. Bambu wasn't even a trademarked name yet when the XL was announced.
But instead of reacting to a new competitor Prusa just choose to double down on a product that is basically outdated and overpriced at release.
@@Jansetsfirelol so how is the XL outdated? I'ts coreXY with input shaping and wifi just like bambu. If the Xl is outdated then so is everything bambu lab.
@@LilApe It's ''outdated'' in the sense that it's a CoreXY machine with fairly slow print speed, poorly functioning Input Shaping without the needed sensors, no camera for monitoring, a clunky user interface and no sort of chamber to enable printing of materials like ABS or Nylon.
@@NorwayVFXlmao the XL literally prints just as fast as anything bambu lab when using single color and its like 10x faster when using multi color. You can add a camera to the XL and its prints ABS and nylon just fine without a chamber. You bambu bots are hilarious.
Fantastic breakdown. I love the heck out of my single tool head Prusa XL but it is really dang hard to recommend with other printer options that are out there for a fraction of the price.
I had an Ender 5 and upgraded to a MK4 and would love an XL. I hope Prusa doesn't fall off I think their customer support and how they support all their old versions to upgrade is amazing. They can never go away from the bed slinger, but I do hope they are working on a new design to shake up the 3D printing community again in the future.
Considering their products are still selling quite well, with the Mk4 being their most sold printer - I'd say they're more like Android than Blackberry. Quirky, not necessarily the most up to date, but still gets the job done and doesn't get in the way of what you want to do.
and the possibility to be flexible... Good comparison.
not that I am really up on all the latest, but a good point. The blackberry was way more lame than color touch screens with swipes. Even the ender 3 will still print things.
To me I really really don't like how slow these printers are. There needs to be some breakthough technology to speed them up dramatically without the loss of quality.
If you can do a 5 hour print in 10 minutes. Something like printers could use pellets instead of filament, have 100 print heads super high density that drip plastic and 100 times faster. Or something like that. I saw a backpack printer that printed upside down, so maybe print the top and bottom in parallel and fuse them at the end ..automatically,
so now 100x2 times faster..
a blackberry got the job done as well. In fact I’d say the Prusa is farther behind than the blackberry was the iPhone.
@@RhinoAg Hardly. Prusa has a core XY machine with faster and less wasteful color printing than Bambu (Prusa XL), and the Mk4 is Prusa's best selling machine, so they are not in dire straits like Blackberry was. The analogy falls flat.
Android is used by many brands. So no, your comparison is not valid.
Smaller XL with 3 heads: 2 for different colours and 1 for dissolvable support for exemple.
Changing the the test from benchy to something useful like maybe bearings or anything mechanical could also provide more valuable data on printers. its definitely something to think about
The benchy is not just a standard and a reference, it's also a combination of challenges for an FDM printer. Torture toaster is a greater challenge, but still a toy and a waste of filament. I think we're ready for a new benchy, but it will have to be fast, small and very challenging.
There's a reason why the 3D Benchy is the standard for printer testing. If you go to their website, there's a very comprehensive explanation as to which portion of their model tests.
3D printed bearings aren't really useful either though. You'd just buy metal bearings and insert them into your model.
@@Croz89 The only 3D printed bearings to be considered are nylon ones without moving parts.
I dont own a prusa but own a P1P and i really want prusa to still succeed. Some of my favorite 3D printer videos are the ones where creators or prusa themselves show off their factory.
I first thought this was a clickbait title but after watching the video it is accurate. I think prusa should take the voron/ratrig design for a new line that competes directly with Bambu just to show bambu's offerings are not that "new" and there are others like them . take some to of their market share away. the voron/ratrig design already exists , it will easily competes with bambu. They just have to sell it premade and assembled or as a kit. They don't have to invest much and they can keep doing what they are doing with the i3 and xl
i mean bambulab used voron in the development of X1, they even credited them
Every printer manufacturer is going to have to follow the game into linear-rails core-XY designs territory .. OK so I picked the wrong time to start with a bedslinger 😅
The MK4 is Prusa’s best selling printer to date, CoreXY is kind of a pain, long term bed slingers are simpler designs that are easier to maintain and easier to remote support. Support is a large part of Prusa’s offering, I suspect it would take a lot for them to shift from this design.
The XL is a Voron-style (CoreXY) printer. They literally did what you are saying they should do. What they missed on IMO is no enclosure and of course, the cost.
creality and qiddi have printers in the range of performance and cost as bambu. so, there's competition there already.
it's an interesting suggestion to follow the pack vs R&D and innovation. is innovation hard? sure. but that's how you get the 5 print heads, vs the plug and play bambu with 4 color prints for $500. I'd like to see a desktop version of the resin core x-y that printed a 6 foot person in a few hours. stronger prints, some loss of detail, but a foot per hour? that's a breakthrough for desktop, no question about it.
I worked for a University around the turn of the century, and they got so many of those AOL CDs for students every year - and gave them out to literally anyone who walked by. But by the time AOL was history around 2000ish, there were still so many boxes of CDs left. So we gave them to the student assistants that helped professors with technology & they made CD wallpaper for the student assistant office. They even made some CD chandeliers. I wish I still had photos, it was really creative.
It is a niche application, but what a niche indeed. I could see large print farms having ONE of these in the corner for those types of prints while the "regular" printers do 99% of the work. On the other hand it is an interesting look into what is possible, and what may become available at a lower cost in just a few years. What we need is the "Brother Laserprinter" of 3D printing. Cheap, easy to refill without proprietary ink (looking at you HP), and reliable. No bells, no whistles, just something that can sit for months then belt out a few parts when needed.
That’s kind of been what Prusa was for years…just not the cheap part
All Prusa needed to do in 2021 was to release a Voron kit. But instead they announced the XL, which would have been a great printer in 2021. But it came out in 2023. After the Bambu X1C.
Most of Prusa’s improvements in the last years were on Prusa Slicher. Which also benefited their competitors.
I personally own a 5 head XL and I agree with nearly everything in this video. Definitely not a first printer, but if your existing prints do need the very specific tasks only an XL can service, then its your only option. Not just small multi color prints though, multi material like PETG supports or water soluble on PLA parts for perfect interface were my 2 reasons. The bed size is nice as well where I can print 16 of my main widgets, vs only 4-6 on standard size printers.
There are still quirks like we 100% need multiple purge towers so PETG and PLA dont need to be on the same one (works for some prints but its not reliable enough for production), but otherwise I think prusa still succeeded with this since its a whole new and revolutionary design that no one on the market can compete with yet, and its reliable enough to be used for production.
I hope the XL is the direction prusa takes as well since the MK4 makes no sense to me, strong fast core XYs that can be cheaper if they are smaller, and since most people only need 1 head then that as well. The XL is the first gen, and we dont know if its going to be a blackberry storm (their bad touch screen phone for the zoomers) or a Samsung Galaxy S.
As a Prusa owner, I completely agree. The XL took so long to develop, and is so over-engineered, that the rest of the industry passed them by. Multilateral and multicolor is the future, but not sure the XL will be the way.
I think it's a bit related to Joseph's personality. That allowed him to thrive in the maker community but it fares poorly in the mass market.
Then what will be the way? For true multi material, you need different toolheads. Otherwise, it will just not work properly and cause problems.
The XL is perfect if you need to prototype with living edges, seals, etc. There is no other machine that can do what this machine is capable of.
Yea, what is the correct approach?
@@nukularpictures The XL doesn't even have an enclosure, materials used for engineer prototyping require an enclosure.
There are more machines coming out that will be able to do multi-material, and there are some innovative designs. Some are nozzle switching, some are multiple nozzles on same tool head. Heck, if you want high end, Vorons have them if you are hobbyist.
The XL is just over engineered, won't be modifiable, and is really pricey for what it is. Last I saw it still can't even print well with anything other than 0.4 nozzle, which they didn't include in the first release.
@@tempname8263 There is no definitive best method yet, but it's definitely not an MMU/AMS which has way too much waste. I think multiple tools is the answer, like a CNC, but I don't think the best option exists yet.
Great perspectives, but more importantly I have to say that your video production quality is incredible, the cuts and b- roll keep what would otherwise be a single shot monologue super engaging!! 😎😎
One of the big issues with Prusa is they have no representation in the USA. Every 999 dollar printer comes with a 150 shipping fee. The XL is 300 for shipping. Plus it took them 2+ years to ship after they announced. Their products are pretty solid performers, but I can get my Ender 3 and my Prusa MK2s+ to make the same parts at the same speed.
They do with Printed Solid, they are here in the US
@@ShopNation it seems like it would make more sense to setup a north america factory and ship out from there, instead of shipping from Europe
Plus the $160 customs fee on top of it for XL to the US. I really wish they had a distributor in the USA 😔
YES! I just had an order of 4 printers for our school get returned to the Czech Republic because DHL said our importer didn't pay the duty fee on time. Multiple emails to Prusa and they finally came back with "Well we can send it to you again, but you're paying shipping charges again, or we can refund you the order, but you're still out shipping and possibly the duties". The strangest thing is that I put in 2 orders on the same day. One shipped and we paid duties no problem, the other got screwed up. This means that I've got a 50/50 of any order I place with Prusa actually showing up.
Printed solid is an option, but they don't stock kits. Typically I've ordered a mix of prebuilts and kits so I can have our shop monitors put together machines and get a feel for how they go together. We have over 20 Prusas, but after this latest screw up with shipping I'll be switching to Bambu or another similar brand for future machines. Really disappointed as I like Prusa in principle as a company, and have tried to support them for 4 years now.
Had my Bambu in 5 days free shipping. I don't use multi color printing so the enclosed Bambu is a much better option. The only thing PRUSA has going on for it is the multi head and 14x14 size, other than that it's outdated.
loving my p1s with ams. not just the printer but the whole eco-system from buying spare parts if need to filament to prints that are actually useful to print. This was my first ever 3d printer and i have to admit the experience was flawless so far !
Been in the 3D printing business since 2011 starting with the Ultimaker original. Over time I grew less and less interested in the printers and more just interested in the output and dreamed of a hands-off experience. Last year I bought the Bambu P1S for my work and it's a total game changer. I can't overstate how happy I am with it, just push the button and collect your parts later, never had a fail.
I was on the fence and ended up with the Bambu p1s. And it’s insane it’s amazing is all I can say
I have 14 MK3.5's and I'm really debating if I should spend $500 a piece to upgrade them to MK4's or should I just buy all Bambulabs A1's for $550... and free shipping!!! that part of the equation is not working for Prusa.
In the same boat. 14 mk3s and wondering if upgrades make sense right now.
Honest questions: what does a "pivot" look like exactly in your mind? Is it just the release of a comparable machine to the X1 or are you suggesting you see a fundamental flaw in business strategy? Competing on price alone is basically impossible with the sheer scale of manufacturing capability China has. So where would you recommend Prusa focus on providing the value needed to make up the difference?
As an mechincal engineer you should recommend it to everyone who wants the top mechanical design for highest precision and quality. The mk4 and xl has an extruder design which is miles ahead of any other printer on the market. They have a large gear single extruder design with the pushing force of a dual gear extruder. Who is interested in high consistent extruder should look up the work of miragec or mihaidesign. If you think about their conclusion the mechincal solution is the prusa extruder design!
On top of it they can measure the extruding force. Which gives the possibility from hardware side to closed loop control the extruding pressure, ideal temperature calibration for each filament and so on(just my ideas what they could do with it).
By the way owning a p1p, sovol, creality and no prusa at all.
Couldn't agree more. I've been looking for my next fast bed slinger and I was cross shopping the Prusa MK4, Bambu A1, and Creality's newest ender 3 v3. All of them can do a sub 20 minute benchy, run klipper with input shaping, and have auto-bed leveing. But only 1 of those costs over $1000...
Not all about speed, that Ender in that group is the odd duck that will break very soon
Bambu A1 goes back on sale in April, and as an owner, it has been one of the best printers ever!
@@ShopNation hehehe my Ender 3 v3 KE survived 3 month so far but I still have a feeling of playing Russian roulette whenever I turn it on :D
@@crymp2057Mine lasted about a month,with maybe 50 Hours actual print time, then blobbed itself so badly,that it bent the entire tool head apart.. refunded and got an X1C now ^^
@@Kezenmacher Yeah from the Reddit forums it seems that most common issue is layer adhesion resulting in parts coming loose and lodging themselves inside the tool assembly. I fixed all my adhesion issues with a simple brim.
Upgraded my MK3 to a
MK4 3 months ago and have been printing almost nonstop since then. It is so much faster that I never feel the need to use a 0.6 nozzle anymore. The force touch calibration makes switching print sheets totally seamless. I love my Prusa and don’t see the need to switch, I think they will be around for quite a while yet.
What in the world would you print that would actually be usable and reliable. I don't understand what's so good about 3d printing.
hate to break it to you but the mk4 is the exact same speed as your mk3. motion speed is just a determinant for resolution at a given flow rate, and both mk3/mk4 hotends are the same max flow rate. the only difference is the mk4 will ring at a different accel than the mk3 , slightly higher (because of the change to stiffer 10 mil rods and introduction of input shaping) and that ringing will be somewhat mitigated at the tradeoff of smoothing your parts. that .6 nozzle reduced nozzle pressure which slightly increased your max flow rate. your old setup was actualy faster you just didnt use settings that took advantage of the overhead. input shaping doesnt make your printer faster, it reduces ringing by smoothing the part surface detail away because it smooths the motion system moves by correcting them to a control target with the intent of reducing vibration. your flow rate/time relative to the amount of toolpath moves is what determines how fast your print completes, not how fast it moves. your lack of knowledge in the space is being exploited cuz you absolutely can tune up a mk3 faster it had (clearly) a ton of untapped headroom in default profiles, they were very conservative. i used to print 1kg a day of petg on my mk3 in 2020 and my parts were not a low quality ringing mess. look up the muppet labs page paradox of speed for a primer on this stuff. soon as you get educated on this, you'll understand why the arms race underlying all the other things going on everywhere other than prusa is in hotend flow rate. (basicaly every other printer on the market rn is like 2x or more the flow rate prusa is using). this is not super dissimilar to when they refused to convert the sl1 from an sla printer to an msla printer when everyone else could flash whole layers at a time and they could only make the laser spot trace faster and completely missed the market shift. im not sayign its a bad printer or you shouldnt enjoy it, im just saying here's an explanation why you're wrong about your perceptions of speed and how this stuff works.
LOL I am old enough to get the reference to AOL. "I'm going on the internet... nobody pick up the phone!!!"
I am old enough to get that reference; I actually liked the floppies better because I would re-use them 😂 You make some very good points Sir, great video
I liked the floppies too. I found one and took a picture only to find out I couldn't post it here.
i dont miss floppies at all. Especially the plate sized floppies. ill take a flash drive please hahaha
Somewhere in this house is a shoe box that is choc-a-bloc full of AOL "coasters". Loved the reference.
Until they make a printer enclosed with a heated chamber I wouldn't consider it. If you are doing ABS / Nylon / CF mixes and want it to look good Bambu printers rock. I was looking at the XL because I need the size but it's not enclosed and to expensive for what it is.
One thing you forgot to mention is the availability of the prusa xl. And when you are able to order one it's weeks before it's even delivered.
I really want Prusa to win. The company has customer support beyond any other company that I have dealt with. Their open source philosophy has pushed 3D printing forward and benefited the whole community.
I think if prusa managed to reduce the mk4 price to like ~500$, it would more competitive. The thing is they always use premium components all around and its not really feasible. 3D printing parts in such a large scale is not really practical either. Plus they didnt really design it around being easy to assemble. At their scale they could easily injection mold the parts to reduce cost, and make it easier to assemble. They are kinda stuck in a situation where they are known for open source and repairable printers but the new market is heading somewhere else and they cant really change what they are known for.
actually they are using injection molding in some of parts, they only use 3D printed parts when they see fit.
I think the biggest issue is their testing procedure, it takes them 4 hrs to assemble MK4 (12hrs to assemble XL) and test print and then disassemble (according to their video) but they decided to test every components and assemble it to test. As you said, they should optimise the assemble procedure on design level, but also push the quality from their parts providers instead of testing every components. Or even compensate the fault rate by providing spare parts to customers. They are definitely over sampling which is way too labour intense.
premium components? prusa? absolutely NOT. They self-3d-print many parts. Injection molded parts would be cheaper, more precise AND stronger. The display is ATROCIOUS. The rods are super basic. The motors are off the shelve stuff too.
There is absolutely nothing premium about a MK4 in terms of materials or parts ...
That is also why Prusa - unline Bamboo - needs to assemble, then test, then disassemble all printers. That is SUPER expensive - but shows how high their part failure rate is if they have to constantly test everything.
@@m4ko288 bro what. Bambu likely tests every single part too… most non shit companies will too. They don’t assemble and de assemble, they have test jigs for everytjjgn. The motors on the mk4 are from ldo which are known to make high quality motors. The hotend is manufactured by e3d. The rods and bearings are Musmi and belts are gates. All high end name brands. That’s what I mean by high quality. Bambu doesn’t use any name brand stuff.
Printer parts doesn’t mean it’s bad at all either.
Disabled engineer here, most important factor for me is that it just works out of the box. The XL did that for me. Foremost reason I picked the XL over the Bambu - despite the price - was knowing that Prusa is constantly updating their line of established printers with new capabilities and I don't expect them to just disappear tomorrow with the XL being forgotten. Bambu kind of came out of nowhere and although their device is great, long term, it didn't fill me with as much confidence. My question was what happens with the X1 in a year from now? Will it be upgradable to the X2 like Prusa seems to make a priority? I just don't want my device to be forgotten about or replaced with a version that's seemingly the same but newer. That's why I upgraded from my Mini+, I felt like the XL had enough features that made it a worthwhile investment. Investing in the XL instead of their other offerings to me meant that I expect there to be just as many updates/upgrades to the other printers as there will be for this one. It's definitely a long-term investment that I expect will pay off because of what an establishment of such a capable printer means in 3d printing, or at least the stuff that I make. Wheelchair parts action figures, adaptive equipment, and prototyping. I appreciate the multi-material so I don't have to physically swap things all the time, I appreciate the significantly less waste and increased speed when printing things like multicolored figures, I've experienced a very small amount of failed prints, upgrading from one extruder to five extruders wasn't horrible and the calibration was straightforward making my first print immaculate, I like the Prusa-Connect features... I could go on however because of my disability it makes it hard to modify/fix the printer as much which was the reason I was considering Bambu, luckily I have a friend that offered his help if I went with Prusa, but I've found the unit to be crazy user friendly despite I'm unable to maintenance it that much. I feel like this video is a little bit of doomer vibes for clicks, doesn't really matter what device you buy as long as it does the job you need it to. Obviously the expense is definitely a huge drawback, considering all the bugs they worked out, what is capable of and how my expectation is to use this device for many years... I think it's an amazing unit so far. I don't know what they have to offer next but as it is I'm very happy with it.
About the X1 upgrade, since it’s closed-source, anything could happen. However, I own an A1 unit, and as part of a recall, they’re sending me a new heatbed since I chose to keep mine. Interesting. Also, the point I originally wanted to mention, was that Bambu sells an upgrade kit from the P1P to the P1S, adding a fan, light, camera, enclosure, etc..
@@enhidri160 well that's cool. I made the decision to go with the XL in October or November of last year and just upgrading to the five extruders very recently, but I had seen a lot of compelling videos about the Bambu. It just seemed kind of early even though I know it had been out for a while at that point. I definitely am jealous of having an enclosure and the camera, the XL has lights on it which is nice but it would be nice to be able to see what it's doing because I can't always get next to it. Hopefully both devices continue a long service and upgrade period. Hypothetical, it wasn't for the money, say the devices were the same cost, would you stick with the Bambu?
I almost picked up an XL between the first preorders until the official shipments. I am a early adopter to the bambu line. (X1CC kickstarter 2022) and the printer is rock solid and only performed general maintenance to keep things moving along.
Most of the upgrades I have done are through firmware updates. which basically mean I never needed (or wanted) to mess with the machine. Silent steppers, object exclusion, a host of bug fixes to where you would not need to think about running an update path like printers of yesteryear. Even the (optional) scary cloud has been a boon for my printing journey that I never thought I needed. (full remote control of the printer, sending print jobs while away, and reliable enough to treat it like an appliance that will just work)
From my first print to my roughly 4400 hrs later print the machines have earned their place towards the top of 3d printers lists. XL will get better, but the competition isn't standing still either.
@@ashleys3dprintshop it was a toss-up for me too. I'm glad I picked what I did but like everyone I was going through all the videos which made it a very difficult decision. There's a lot of clickbait-like titles for videos, similar to this, trying to warn everybody about or at least inform everybody about every little detail. Everyone's mileage varies but I feel like a lot of those videos are just to either prove that one device is better than the other or actually impress upon the features. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference, especially when there might be a paid incentive involved. But regardless, I think everybody just wants a device that works as easily as a microwave that you pick up from the store. I couldn't tell you the brand of microwave I bought last, but what I do know is that it works. That's kind of what I wanted with my printer, I had a Mini+ but if things are more automated I didn't care about switching brands. Similar to what you said, I as well just want an appliance that will just work. I've been using 3D Studio Max for about 20 years now so there's really nothing I can't make, it just came down to the printer and it's ease of use. So far I think I've made the right decision for my situation, I know everybody is using them differently and there's definitely people making a lot more with a lot less. But I could have easily wound up with a Bambu, and still might in the future, but for now with all the features that are built in to the XL, it's as close to that microwave analogy as I was hoping.
I own the Bambu because I print a lot of ABS/Nylon/CF. An enclosed heated printer is a MUST. It has been rock solid for me. I have had 1 filament jam in 200 hours and that's it. Now the people putting it down because it's cloud based are just being stupid because if you were printing Tony Starks parts for him you can just print them from a SD card to be safe.
I had printers for years. Used weekly sometimes daily. It was always a chore. Then I got my bambo A1mini and yes it’s a bit small but 90% of the time its enough. And it made designing and printing equally fun.
I have 2 larger printers and got an A1 Mini and you’re right, it’s a fun little machine. Most of what I print fits on it so it’s running much of the time. And it just works, beautifully. The dynamic flow calibration is genius.
I think you missed an important aspect about multiple heads: The possibility of having different nozzle size to decrease printing time.
When there is an affordable Multi head, CoreXY, MagLev printer available. I will for sure buy that one.
1) I don't like the Benchy model either.
2) I get the AOL reference
3) My MK3S+ has sat idle since I got the X1C in mid November 2023. It has a In3DSpace light bar on it, and makes a nice night light in the basement, so I leave it turned on.
Isnt MK3S+ like half the price of X1C? :D Great comparison...
@@chucktesta7192 It is. I bought the MK3S+ in November of 2020, and it's been a workhorse. I wanted something faster and with a MMU or AMS. The X1C was $1513.35 with a couple spare bits, included shipping. The MK4 is $1099, an enclosure is $349, the MMU3 is $299, so we're at $1697. And at the time the input shaping code wasn't ready for the MK4.
Just did the MK3.5 upgrade on my MK3S+. It's like a whole new machine.
@@chucktesta7192 the a1 series are also better than the MK3S+. For half the price of them
As a happy owner of Prusa Mini, I agree that Prusa is on the edge. The XL is no use for personal usage. I also hate the MMU solution, so I am not going to purchase the other multi color solution. And I do want a new printer. MK4 came with out a camera. This sounds like a small thing, yet it is not. I will never buy a printer without integrated camera, good wireless communication and control. I hope also to get BT. It should be a small computer, same like cell phones. Prusa has another advantage over Bambu: 24/7 support line. A critical factor. No less. We shouldn't forget that Bambu is a Chinese solution. Do you trust them? I don't. So what do I do? I am waiting. I am sure Prusa will release their MK4+. Soon. Or Mini++/
Good points
I agree with everything you said. I'm a Prusa fan and love my Mk3s, but the X1C is, by far, my most-used printer. It will be really interesting to see what Bambu brings us with its XL model -- though I'd probably be a day-one buyer even if it was nothing more than a larger X1C. I really hope that Prusa can step up their innovation game and find a way to stay competitive in the consumer/prosumer market as I'd much rather give them my money.
I agree, waiting on a XL version of the Bambu so I can buy. Bambu rocks.
As someone who loves tinkering, I have to say, that Prusa already lost a very big and important sector, when the Ender 3 (and all its clones and upgraded versions) flooded the lower end market and killed of the cheap i3 clones, that were at least somewhat compatible with real Prusa machines. At that time it might not have been seen as an issue, because they were positioned as the premium brand, that just works well out of the box. But now that they get dangerous competition at the top end, they have lost the perfect moment to diversify their portfolio into the Ender's niche, which is imo the best entry way for new 3D printing enthusiasts.
The Prusa mini could have been that cheap entry to build up brand loyalty, but even the kit is 460€ rn. For comparison my first 3D printer - an Ender 3 - did cost 155€ with a full 1kg spool of PLA included (which was like ~9-10€ at that time). What do you think, a student or someone else with a tight budget will prefer?
Been a printer since 2016. Always wanted a prusa before but never went ahead, and now I know why after I did went ahead for a X1C. Prusa, like almost all the other brands were too comfortable with their market positions. To me, whoever nails bed leveling everytime, do away with the petty extrusion multiplier, heats evenly, can do multi color, cheap/easy to replace parts, and prints slightly faster wins so I jumped after watching just two reviews. Most importantly, I think that people are getting increasingly tired of 3d printers feeling like a sketchy but tasteful experiment. They should be, and now can be, more like a reliable tool.
Great video! My MK3S+ was my 1st printer. Still a great machine. I wanted multicolor without having to stand there and wait. The A1 just came out so I jumped on it. Needless to say, the Prusa doesn't get used much anymore. And not because I'm just doing multi color, because I'm not. The A1 is fast and just easy to use. My Prusa took 10+ hrs to assemble, A1...... 30 mins. Sad to say, my next printer will probably be an X1 or P1. Prusa needs to step up their game. Cost for ease of use, assembly, enclosure....... No brainer folks.
I would only add a minor observation. Anyone who lacks the patience/skill to assemble a 3D printer these days probably will not 'survive' the experience. Much of the industry has come a long way from the days of the erector set self made machine.
Good call. Love the possibilities. Don't know of any models that would take advantage of all those color / material options. Side quest! Which lock box were you printing in the begining?
At some point the print time isn’t really going to matter too much for a lone user (more so for a print farm) however as an engineer I find that I care more about print quality, reliability, material strength (especially per unit mass), and a good build volume reduces limitations. Big fan of the markforged in particular for drone parts for this very reason. Multiple heads for reliability is great and allows multiple materials, yet 5 seems too much. Color is usually the last concern.
definitely, im more interseted into fusing a several materials in same part and skip most assembling work on design level.
Prusa needs to innovate to stay competitive, it's that simple.
'd like to buy a Prusa. People say their 3D printers are the Corollas of the industry in that they last forever. Shop Nation asks what can Prusa can do to stay competitive. Lets not dance around this! Simply offer the printers at competitive prices (Corolla prices) for their ready to go printers and the kits. I'm not talking 10% cheaper. They need to hit the 20-30% discount range. Also, the cost difference between the fully built printer and the kit version is ridiculous...close that gap by 50%
They do innovate. Every single printer on the market today uses innovations created by prusa.
I totally agree. A heated chamber is so simple and they still haven't included it with a $3500 printer.... Bad move
@@LilApe There is absolutely no denying that BUT how long was that? The BlackBerry reference is spot on in this video.
@@Spoonuk666 Their nextruder is innovative. Their segmented heat bed is innovative as is their load cell nozzle. All this is on the XL. Things they did 1st.
Prusa innovates but, its frustratingly slow. The XL isnt a disrupter with this price tag. They need to focus their resorces on creating a low cost, competitive, corexy printer.
The innovation is not given by the price tag, it would be a desservice to have a low cost machine when theres a lot of low cost machines that are low cost because os material quality or bad customer support, if your looking for that it would be advisable to look into the offerings of the competition and not try to pull the quality down to reach market price.
@@JonaDVargas cost doesn't always go hand in hand with quality. Scaling up, supporting less printers, and using better manufacturing techniques can bring cost down. I have several prusas. They are great, but lack features for the price.
@@IvanJoel the problem is that in order to achieve that they would have to produce in China or Vietnam to really compete but they had their parts, developed by them, copied that way and sold by third parties on china and from china.
You blew it! You said “New Kids on the Block “ but didn’t bust out any sick dance moves! 😂
@9:44 - I worked at Mindspring doing technical support when 33.6K was fast. The day the building got the first T1 line, we all had a party.
is it bad that I'm watching this eating Haribo gummy bears, while also watching a live stream of Josef raging while he blacklists you from future Blackberry releases? 🐼
Ok, first off you said "Shamelessly copied" about a project that is open source. LOL, ok, that aside I've been involved, on and off, with the 3D printer community since it's inception as part of the maker movement. But these days I rarely use them as I felt that Prusa and other's spent too much time focusing on the machine aspect and not as much on the outcome. You said it yourself in this video, people want appliances. I always use the toaster analogy. I don't want to have to tend a fire everytime I want toast, I want an easy to use appliance. Put the bread in, push the button and DING... Toast! That needs to be the focus, not can I make this more complicated.
Open source is not the same as public domain. These projects still have licenses you need to follow.
@@unknownhoursand what terms did they violate? Prusa is a derivative of reprap and if I remember their terms is free and anything drawing off of their license is free. Granted Prusa has all but completely left the open source realm at this point but we aren’t talking about where they are now but where they were years ago.
@@denoftools they both used GPL v2. Source files must be distributed to users and derived works must also be under GPL.
it's hard to believe it but it's true that AOL CDs have now become collector items. the larger and more varied your collection is, the more money it will fetch.
Dangit man, I just bought a MK4 a couple weeks ago!
I kid about the frustration, I'm actually pretty pleased with mine thus far.
I do see what you mean though, Prusa needs to pivot to some type of CoreXY platform for the future, one that has that openness and reliability that brings with it the community, all of which is what I think made Prusa what it is.
The Mk4 is excellent, you won't be upset with your purchase
My new Mk4 has been ordered.. yesterday. Saw this video today>
And porbs all ShopNation vids about 3D printing, and woodworking, and whatever else out there I could find, before buying my woodworking tools and now the 3D printer
I need better dust co..
Just kidding.. I need a better router base first. Dust collection comes after fixing that! ;)
That router makes too much dust!
Honest comments and clear facts. Can't ask for more. Thank you for your continued efforts.
The big miss of the XL is that it is an open frame printer. This means it is pretty much limited to PLA/PETG. So neat for colorful PLA stuff, not so great for engineering.
I think there is a space in the market for a consumer level mid temp printer that can do ABS/ASA/PA with ease and even do limited PPS/PEI/PEKK prints. Right now the cheapest option I can find is the funmat HT at around EUR 6000. A AMS-alike equipped printer with dual extruders (To do multi material support or flexibles prints) with a reliable chamber temperature at ~90C at less than EUR 3000 would be a game changer in the space of hobbyists going beyond PETG and small scale production.
Snapmaker J1s ?
I totally agree. The XL was outdated the day they released it because it is no ABS/Nylon/CF printer without rigging up some home made crap to it.
@@fivepointeightnateI’m sure apple, I mean prusa, will release a $700 encloser kit with it soon enough
My neighbor purchased an XL single head, and made a full enclosure, but it's like 3.5 feet tall! So you can't even have it on a shelf, rather the space has to be open. It's an extremely interesting enclosure system, but, the PTFE tube is around 4 feet long, as you may know. Filament unload is a lot of work on it, Prusa NEEDS to add a stepper motor to automatically pull out the filament from the extremely long tube.
Qidi X-Max 3?
SLS printing would be the way to go.
Prusa next market should be industrial based manufacturing and highly specialized materials.
There's tons of room for growth.
Excellent observations. I would have a quibble somewhat about 'appliance level printing'. In my experience that level of usage arrived 5 years ago with the FLSun QQ-S Pro. Yes it did require me to assemble the unit. However it was no harder than well known Xmas bicycle exercise every parent knows. Mounted the probe, auto leveled the unit and it functioned flawlessly. And here we are, the only things I have done to the device is a hardened nozzle, upgraded the PTFE tube, a mod to the spool holder, and auto level every hundred prints or so. Good enough that I now have two, the QQ-S and the newer VS400.
Its engineering that just works.
well... how many 3d printers for mainstream are developed and manufactured in Europe or in USA? Directly? Prusa does not have just RnD in Europe, they have also production in middle of Europe, directly in capital city.
Agreed! And it’s a huge tip of the hat to them for doing it that way
What do I care about Europe? I want something affordable that works well. Where it’s made is not as important as how well it’s made.
@@radish6691And what is wrong with XL? I see it ok.
Yep. I felt the same way about a year ago when I made my "Dear Prusa" video. I'm still hoping Prusa is going to come back with a vengeance, and that the XL and MK4 were just too far down the development timeline to change them, and/or they just wanted to live up to agreements (always offering an upgrade path for old printers, etc)... and that they have some KICK ASS printers coming out soon...
You're a paid bambu lab shill that got dropped by bambu lab for leaking their product launch. Your opinion on everything is irrelevant.
I suspect Prusa was trying to get into the higher end market with the XL to set up a better product development chain, where cutting edge features are first developed for their high end machines that can pay for the development costs, then those features can graduate to the cheaper machines in time (just like many industries do). Bambu just leveraged the existing tech and put it together into a (very good) current-generation printer. The XL is clearly an attempt at a next generation machine (with some hits and some misses).
Says the guy sponsored by Bambu labs…. Smh.
@@Vallecaucanisimo Bambu Lab doesn't sponsor me - in fact, I don't even have an affiliate account with them anymore. But I do love when people attack my integrity without any facts or evidence!
As owner of 2 mk3s+ and recently bought bambu A1mini.
As a technican i like prusa. I build it. A know everything. I can repair by myself for small amount of money. And i do not worry about overnight prints. It works.
A1 mini i just bought because i am curious about bamboo. I just bought for work when i need prototyping very fast when changes are applyied. But if its final product i do not care much about time. And i like prusaslicer more. With collogues we agree bambu is ios and prusa linux.
Another problem with Prusas is that they're stuck printing just PLA and PETG and maybe TPU. Anything that requires a heated chamber is a problem since none of their printers are fully enclosed. Yes I know they sell an enclosure.
After printing for 5yrs+, still have never printed a benchy. I never saw the point. Also multi material isn't on my radar because i only print functional parts and have never felt the need for it.
Multimaterial is excellent for functional parts: better supports, mixing rigid and flexible filaments, conductive and magnetic filaments, etc.
@@t.m.breuel2670 I'm sure there are use cases, but none that I have needed or can think of ever needing
@@t.m.breuel2670 yeah, multi material with multiple heads is certainly better. The issue I see is the open buildvolume, that can lead to issues with asa, nylon, pc, etc.
Also no benchy for me and mainly print functional parts. Multi color is nice if you have something like numbers on a part (think radius gauges), but where it shines is loading 2 spools of the same material, one runs out the next one continues (at least on Bambu with the AMS)
Never a benchy, 7 years, functional only.
First layer adhesion spiral tests only on occasion, why waste on anything else.
I actually dislike people who print shit that is going straight in the bin, theres far too much plastic waste already
Why would you want the XL for multicolour?
The benefit of having multiple toolheads is multi-material. On that front, the XL is pretty much the only one of its kind, for better and for worse. Better, because it is great that there is a company out there exploring new frontiers. Worse, because it is definitely a first gen product that demands months works from the user just to get started with multi-materials.
I am hoping that more competitions will come to this front. The last thing we want is for things to stuck with the XL for the next 5+ years.
Multicolor would be a huge boost to my current little 3D print shop. I can do it right now but it is only me manually changing colors and then it is only at a simple level color change. To be able to make my parts and have edges highlighted or surface designs would be something no one else is doing. I am all for print heads for multi color.
There's the Jubilee, E3D toolchanger, and Proforge 4 that all 4+ toolheads that compete with the XL. Those can be bought as kits or assembled, there are also voron toolchanger options.
@@popscorn66 But isn't the multi-toolheads be a bit over the top for multi colour? It is more expensive. And, the added complexity definitely reduce reliability.
Personally, I am design a tool-changer for the Voron platform; with multi-material in mind. if I ever needed multi colour; then, I will consider filament switching options like the ERF or Chameleon, to be installed on one of the toolhead.
@@thomasletlow3292 good shout, those alternatives totally slipped my mind.
@@thomasletlow3292 Good shout. I totally forgot about those alternatives.
Although, as one of the designer who is working the the Voron Toolchanger, I have to make a note here that: they are all still in development, as options for components like the docks and electrical panels are being explore, and the documentation is scattered.
My simple reason as to why its the next black berry is because its now absurdly expensive compared to its competitors such as the new Bambu Lab A1.
Bambu dropped their A1 to $250-$300 while the PRUSA Mini+ is still at $400-$450. Obviously I’m looking at the A1 more than the mini.
When will we be seeing an update video on the Bambu P1Ps in your print farm? I work at a print farm consisting of mostly MK3S+'s as well, and am looking to expand too. Have they held up in the 7 months? Will you be buying more?
Hilarious. Just got my MK4 kit last week and finished building it. Based on your Prusa recommendation.
It’s a fantastic printer! You’ll love it
I’ve had my Mk4 for 3 weeks and love it so much I’ve ordered another… and 3 minis off marketplace! It’s addictive! So much fun!
MK4 is reliable. We know it WILL be reliable, as Prusa still supports their oldest products. Bambu is new kid on the block - we don't know about Bambu's support.
My workplace invested in Prusa - just because we have working relationship with them and we never had any problem with solving our issues. And MK4 with input shaping is fast. 430 mm/s is absolutely standard,
since I got my Prusa I did not have to change or adjust a thing, simply worked, and keeps working after like 3 years and moving house 3 times
All respect to Prusa, my first printer a couple years ago was an E3 S1 Pro, and upgraded it with a Sonic Pad. Just the creature comforts provided by Klipper (or other modern) firmware is night and day. I now have a Marlin printer and miss it badly.
Built in camera, time lapse, macro, and very clean web interface support. Arguably cleaner input shaper that's push-button tuned with a cheap accelerometer. It's hard to understate how much more fluid the experience is.
A colleague of mine is a devout Prusa guy of years, and that crowd doesn't know what they're missing...
That said, my Marlin printer is an IDEX because I can't abide the time and material waste of the AMS. I just wanted true, dual materials with some light multicolor.
@@timm7524 Prusa firmware has almost nothing to do with Marlin. Input Shaper, for example, is from Klipper and not the Marlin version.
Klipper is certainly interesting. But from a security point of view, Prusa is a professional manufacturer, a firmware that is connected to the Internet on a Linux system is not acceptable.
I realized I am old AF when I laughed soo HARD about that AOL disk joke.
You are right about several things,they’re behind in some areas yes but when you’re funded by the Chinese government, huge shock, you can build amazing machines.
I built a farm in the last month and chose to stick with Prusa and bought four MK4’s with enclosures. Primary reasoning was I know the core design and can maintain them. I do not like the idea of breaking down a Bambu to change a rod or bearing which is inevitable. You can call them “consumer” machines all you want but when was the last time you changed a bearing in your HP Laserjet? They are not a consumer “appliance” and never will be IMO.
I’ll get a Bambu at some point to compare but I won’t be moving away from Prusa as I buy in to the ethos behind the printers
I would still buy a blackberry - reliable, robust, clear audio, loud speaker, long battery life and I wouldn’t have to fight auto correct when typing.
Nah man, keyboards on phones entered death row when people discovered they wanted bigger p*rn screens, vertical video and cheap nannies instead of a small computer from their cellphone device.
@@ElectronicShredder that’s what tablets are for.
@@AngelR1227last I checked the current market for tablets are TH-cam machines for toddlers and old-timers ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess the specific use case that makes a difference is that with dual printheads you can print soluable support material all the time.
Big thing that I want to see here is like other commenters mentioned -- dissolving support made a priority which makes the filament production companies key. Otherwise, and particularly for @Shop Nation here is that this would actually do multimaterial with different materials like TPU for impact resistance and nylon for strength. That could open up some interesting stuff for things like the miter saw dust collection systems -- TPU for the hose connection or TPU for a flex in a spot to make blade removal easier or ABS to smooth the inside easily for improved flow. There's lots of possibilities there that other printers literally can't do, but the community needs designs specifically for that.
I think Prusa should invest more in the multihead system and make it an option to all Pursa printers not only the XL. Bambu Lab is still developing thier own XL and new technology maybe introduced during the lunch.
It is clear Bambu Lab is targeting Prusa as company, they have created printers that look cheaper or better next to the MK4 and Mini +. Bambu even competing at software level with sclier that is based on prusa one and online models database like printables.
Overall, user experience is the most important. Plug and play and ready to print without tweaking is what majority of people are truly care.
yes, it is much easier to do not make same mistakes like others and just copy what they did and patent everthing what is possible...
At the latest when Bambulab introduces a subscription model, the Bambulab users wake up.
Prusa and Bambulab address two totally different users.
If you equate modern with cheap and poorly repairing disposable printers, then Prusa is old -fashioned.
And I like it.
Have you ever worked on a bambu printer? They are very well engineered and have extremely cheap (in price, not quality) replacement parts in comparison to every other manufacturer on the market, and have even added more replacement items at community request. Working on my bambu machine is 10x easier than my prusa or my creality.
As an X1 owner it's a pain to repair, but it's very repairable. The X and P series of printers definitely aren't disposable and saying that is quite disingenuous and avoids the real problem entirely. Prusa printers are easier to work on, yes, but from my experience are just about as disposable as my X1.
@@TreePDX As already written, there are simply different tastes.
In my opinion, the Bambulab are not well designed.
I don't want to go into more detail here because unfortunately it's always difficult to discuss Bambulab.
I am not saying that they are bad, but they are not as good as is always claimed everywhere.
But that's just my opinion, no need to get upset.
I think there will be both and much more in the future.
Hopefully there won't be any more inflammatory videos like this that unnecessarily exacerbate the already bad atmosphere.
@@TreePDX I made the mistake of buying the Bambu A1. Still waiting for the replacement bed so I can use it without potentially burning my house down.
@@herr_rossi69MK4 is quite outdated and overpriced by comparing to bambu X1 or even p1s
Ive worked with and consctructed many Printers. Prusa is still my favorite, their parts are high quality, there are always enough replacement parts on hand, and they have fantastic customer support
I am also a big fan of multiple toolheads over Material changing systems. Less waste, faster changeover, more reliability, more nozzles. Yes it is more hardware intense but it is worth it imho.
I am a massive Bambu fan, however I have also purchased a 5 tool head Prusa XL specifically for multicolor printing. I do end up with quite a few prints where a ton of material is wasted on purging. I estimate the filament cost savings (and time savings) will cause the XL to pay for itself over the course of about 3 years at my current pace.
Prusa botched the XL launch so hard. It came out too late and is still basically an early alpha product.
I agree. I would have purchased an XL even at $5k but without it having an actual ship date and delays upon delays, I just waited and then eventually purchased a Elegoo 3Max , (2) solvo 7 max and one K1 Max. Now that I can reliably print in the 200-300mm/s range I just print more of what I already make and it is fine. If I can get a big multi color printer that would then take me to the next level.
This entire video feels like a perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect.
How so? I would argue I have more experience with Prusa printers than most, as well as Bambulab
Crazy that you’re telling that to someone who runs a prusa print farm.
Prusa might be pivoting, or at least branching out to, B2B with their Automated Farm System. That uses smaller coreXY printers that can maybe be adapted to consumer market. They also have the Prusa Pro.
I do abs with a prusa mark3. What you need as enclosure is just a transparent plastic bag that gets inflated automatically by the heat that comes from the bed. Also the smell is largely contained inside.
All this fawning over Bambu and yet no mention that if you buy a Bambu machine it might catch on fire?
I have 20 of them that run all day, no fires. That was limited to the A1 which has since been fixed
No Bambu has caught fire, there were a few cases of cables breaking and shorting but none of the machines caught fire, just blew a fuse. They've quickly sent out a recall letting people either return the machines and get the money back plus a gift card, or they offer a new heatbed for free plus a gift card. That's pretty good customer service if you ask me.
Wasn't there a TH-camr who received a Prusa XL with a broken heatbed wire, who was told to ''just fix it himself''?
Have a coworker who bought this. Honestly when you figure the cost of ams units, the reliability of prusa, and the fact that this can do multi material (not just multicolor) it’s not terribly priced. Some cool tech for sur
So, here's my perspective. I got a P1S for Christmas. I've had resin printers for years, dating back to the first Photon, but I held off on FDM until a bambulabs came along and there's one, very specific reason. I didn't want to be an FDM printing hobbyist. I wanted to be a hobbyist that used an FDM printer. The P1S had a very short learning curve and worked, with very little adjustment, right out of the box. It'll work with nearly any material you put in it, it has the enclosure, and it's relatively inexpensive. From an outside perspective, I see no reason to buy a mk4 when the A1 exists, let alone the P1.
$3500? nope sorry. I can buy Three Bambus for that. 2 X1 Carbons and 1 P1P.
Bamboo did not revolutionize the FDM printer market, They only took the low hanging fruit of whitewashing the open source home brew garbage that open source home brew garbage is known for, We actually do need a comapny to revolutionize 3d printers like the iPhone did for smartphones. Bamboo printers are not it, Bamboo printers are certainly more user friendly than what came before it, but that is not much of a leap.
I feel you truly are pushing a hard bias that is clouding your thoughts here.
Lets take a similar view of the original Iphone. Iphone does nothing new! Touchscreens and apps have existed for years! Phones have already existed!!! All they are doing is putting it in a easy to use package!
Guess what, thats revolutionary, and thats before we even cover the myriad of features seen on Bambulab printers first (auto flow comp, their belt tension system, the software driven stepper drivers and more).
I think it was an iphone level advancement.
Couldn’t disagree more. Bambulab was a step change to a pretty stale environment. They took all of the innovations from the more expensive “industrial” printers and layered in amazing software. An iPhone was a perfect marriage of hardware and software - just like Bambulab. The innovation wasn’t in the stepper motors it was in sensors and computing.
Bambu's ''innovation'' was bringing a bunch of features only seen on super expensive machines, and putting them on machines that your average hobbyist can afford. They made printing cheap and easy so that people with no experience could do it within a few minutes of unboxing their first machine.
3D printers have very little actual innovation in them if you wanna be picky.
Look at a Prusa machine or any of the other i3 style machines on the market. They use standard aluminum extrusions, linear rails, GT2 belts, stepper motors and run gcode. This is stuff that has existed for decades before hobby 3D printers were a thing. Prusa didn't invent those things if that is what you're thinking, it's literally all just standard industrial parts put together.
having unfortunately never owned a 3d printer -- do they all flex like that prusa while printing? it seems like that would affect the quality of the print, it's weird seeing it for me
I don't have a need for multicolor printing since majority of what I print has to be sanded and finished when done anyways. I wanted a printer that was fast, reliable, and could be upgraded. That's why I ended up building a Voron 2.4 and a V0.2 for smaller items.
Unless Bambu is going to steal a tool changer design (We all know that they are using 100% open source obfuscated behind "encryption") they do not have a printer that is competitive to the Prusa XL. The XL is intended for a professional market that is using multiple filament types in a single print. Bambu does not have a product that will be used in a commercial environment. Unless you want to spend an extra $1000 you have NO data security. If you are a home user that just wants multi-color, buy a Bambu. If you are a professional that does work for customers that value their intellectual property you will not touch a Bambu product. I was able to pay for my XL in the first 3 prints. It is a tool vs a toy argument.
The problem is, not a lot of people in the ''professional market'' want a machine that only prints PLA, PETG and TPU. It's great that you have found a good market, and there are definitely companies that get good use out of the XL without needing advanced materials, but Prusa are missing out on a HUGE market by not making the machine fully enclosed with a heated chamber.
Most larger companies don't care too much about the price, which is why the company I work for bought several Bambu X1E printers without a care in the world, because $3500 for a machine like that is chump change to them.
If the Prusa XL could print ABS and Nylon, we would have gotten several of those, but sadly the oil industry has little use for PLA parts in several colors.
Your whole ''It is a tool vs toy argument'' is pretty funny considering the limited capabilities of the XL. Our Bambu's at work only print ABS, ASA, Nylon and so on.
@@NorwayVFX I am glad that your company only works exclusively with ABS, nylon, and polycarbonate. Mine does a ton of work in PETG, PLA, and TPU. I have other printers that I use when I do net to print PA6 or PA12. Prototyping is often done with materials that may not be the strongest in production. I also know that my clients would not allow me to use a Bambu product even if Bambu claims that the "E" version will not steal their data.