The Problem(s) With Final Destination
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
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Final Destination is probably the most misunderstood stage in the Super Smash Bros. series, and carries some bigger implications for platform fighters as a whole. Let's talk about why!
This video is sponsored by VITURE and their new Pro XR Glasses. They may honestly be the coolest sponsor I've ever worked with and I'm very happy to have them back, I loved their first model but comparing them side by side is like night and day. The VITURE Pro is brighter, clearer, and longer-lasting, and if you're interested, you can use my links below (also please be sure to use code MOCKROCK for a 10% discount on any items you bundle with the VITURE Pro).
Also a big thanks to Wisely for coming on! You can check his channel out here, he makes a lot of great platform fighter content with a focus on the Rivals series and that other Smash game: / @atwisely
Finally, here's the full list of (non-Smash) platform fighters featured in this video if you thought any looked interesting:
-Brawlhalla
-Combo Devils
-Fraymakers
-Multiversus
-Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2
-Rivals of Aether
-Rivals 2
-Rushdown Revolt
-Sentinels Inc.
-Slap City
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Thanks for watching!
#smashultimate #nintendo #VITURE #VITUREPro #UltraClarity - เกม
This video is sponsored by VITURE and their new Pro XR Glasses. They may honestly be the coolest sponsor I've ever worked with (they didn't tell me to say that btw) and I'm very happy to have them back! I loved their first model but comparing them side by side is like night and day. The VITURE Pro is brighter, clearer, and longer-lasting, and if you're interested, you can use my links below (also please be sure to use code MOCKROCK for a 10% discount on any items you bundle with the VITURE Pro).
*VITURE Store:* pro.viture.com/MockRock
*VITURE Amazon:* viture.us/MockRock
Also a big thanks to Wisely for coming on! You can check his channel out here, he makes a lot of great platform fighter content with a focus on the Rivals series and that _other_ Smash game: www.youtube.com/@atWisely
Finally, here's the full list of (non-Smash) platform fighters featured in this video if you thought any looked interesting:
-Brawlhalla
-Combo Devils
-Fraymakers
-Multiversus
-Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2
-Rivals of Aether
-Rivals 2
-Rushdown Revolt
-Sentinels Inc.
-Slap City
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8 hours longer than the normal battery life? That's like.... 8 and a half hours!
$1000 btw
Eye damage
So how does the screen actually look? Because we see nothing
>platform fighter
>play on the one stage without platforms
nice PFP
This is what my friends insist on doing.
I mean might as well play on king of fighters stadium considering there's no platform at all....
oh wait they banned that map
I hate Lylat as much as the next traumatized Smash 4 player but Yoshi's Story getting banned for its gentle slopes is downright criminal
Half of the specials in the game are whack on slopes
Free Yoshi's. Stage is goofy and hilarious but not uncompetitive. It added so much to Ultimate competitive without detracting from it being competitive.
11:35 - Seeing Metroid Dread used as an analogy for the terrifying presence of Kazuya is genuinely funny.
aw shit I didn't pick up on that before XD
The year is 21XY. Tourney players have gone even further beyond, even capable of RNG manips and Stale Reference manips in real time. The true test of skill is Pichu vs Bowser with items on High in Brinstar Depths.
Port priority is, of course, decided by a classic game of Fox dittos on Final Destination
But what decides the port priority for the Fox ditto?
@@masterofdoots5965 RPS was found to be unbalanced, so now it's decided by a quick round on Lethal League.
@@masterofdoots5965 Rock paper scissors
@@aab1254 But what decides the positions of the players for rock paper scissors?
@@njijnji god
Thanks for having me on! It was super fun to talk about what it means to take away the platforms in a platform fighter :)
Appreciate you coming on! People, check this man out, he's got some of my favourite videos about the Rivals series and PM out there
Yoo it's you
I just simply can’t find platforms very enjoyable. I’ve labbed with them for at least a dozen hours and played on them for even longer, and I just feel so incredibly smothered by them. They feel sticky and incredibly limited. Most of my characters love to abuse platforms, including my main Greninja. But for everything I can abuse on them, there is something my opponent can. I just feel extremely stressed anytime I see a battle begin with a platform. Even when I do win and use drag down into Up Smash on them, I just feel… so stressed the entire match. I think it’s just not for me, I simply want to strictly fight my opponent, so I opt to fight on Omega Form stages.
@@asuuki2048wait so your reason for not liking platforms is “my opponent can also use platforms and has a better chance?”
I actually said that it’s primarily because they feel sticky and smothering and that I also just prefer the straightforward fighting.
I love that you included Coney's video talking about how Smash is stale now. I do agree that our choice of stages dramatically changes the way we approach the game. I like running tournaments with alternate rulesets for this exact reason since I love seeing how strategies have to adapt given new circumstances. This video is probably going to be my inspiration to run a hazards on tournament sometime soon. We have Fountain of Dreams in HD it's a crime we aren't playing on it.
I don't even watch tournaments like that but the fact we have a peak stage in FoD and it doesn't get touched bothers me to no end.
I love your content!!! Funny seeing you here hehe
A thing I do with friends sometimes is let random number generators pick like six sets of four characters, and ten sets of three stages, excluding the basic triplats/FD/etc. Overlap happens with both character sets and stage sets. Each stage set and character set has a set of rules attached - could be anywhere from time (3~6 minutes) to stocks (2~5) or even stamina (50~300), or it could be custom smash with like permanent curry, bunny hood, back shield, or flower, giant or mini, etc. Also things like smash meter, certain items on, stage hazards on or off, and even launch rate can be modified.
With each match, players pick a set of characters and a set of stages, then those are merged into the only options. From there, each player bans two characters, two stages, and one ruleset, and RNG decides who gets what character from the unbanned four, which of the two unbanned stages is picked, and which of the two unbanned rulesets will be used. If the ruleset has stage morph, both remaining stages are in there.
hi tuesday
woah, tuesday jumpscare
Going straight to Temple and being appalled that it’s not legal when you’re first learning about competitive rule sets for smash as a casual is such a vibe 😭😭😭
It feels completely arbitrary which aspects of stage design people are fine with saying "It's a skill to be able to handle this" and which people will say "It detracts from the ACTUAL skill of the competitors". Maybe it is just because I come from card games, but I see dealing with some amount of randomness as absolutely a skill.
Making a single interaction regularly decide whole games objectively reduces skill expression - going to card games, it's why Yugioh is such an awful game. Just draw Dimension Shifter, and if the other guy draws Dimension Shifter just open your out.
@@roberthansen5727 And that's why "deck building" is a thing (meaning that there will never be only one interaction).
And Yugioh isn't even close to awful for it. There's a LOT of ways to mitigate any single card without drawing it yourself, and in card games, especially Yu-gi-oh, that easily takes the form of negates and playing around your opponent's brain rather than their cards. Even the decision to put a card down to bluff with it can change the outcome. So yes, that's still skill expression. In fact, setting UP the potential for a single interaction to determine card games takes more skill expression than Brown Canidae on Flat Space Land without Objects.
Agreed, manipulating your luck in your favor and adapting to poor luck is absolutely a skill. If your opponent pulls a Bom-omb as Daisy, you need to adapt accordingly. If your shots randomly miss in Splatoon, you adapt by repositioning or retreating. Luck is a critical part of skill expression.
in smash, a huge part of that is the question of "is it at least fun and hype to *spectate*?". If it is lame sportsmanship to utilize that element, it gets striked down.
@@noonehere6994 Not only is that not true; even if it were, by doing it the way the Smash community has done it, they've made it so that it's STILL no fun or hype to spectate by making it neutered and stale.
There are PLENTY of ways to punish "lame sportsmanship" that don't involve banning 120-something stages. Some of which Smash ALREADY has rules in place for because they STILL haven't been able to avoid it with their bandaid solutions.
As someone who grew up with Smash as a causal game first, and subsequently discovered competitive smash through stuff like those old "craziest Pokemon Stadium Moments" videos, I can say the current stage situation in competitive Smash hurts my soul. I mean, some tournaments are even banning KALOS now?! Speaking from my own experience (and many people I know with similar stories) having a little bit of lunacy is a treat for viewers, and it helps bridge that gap from casual to competitive. That said, I play exclusively online and exclusively watch majors via Coney's re-streams, so DO NOT take my word as anything other an anecdotal lol. It just makes me a little sad personally is all
Kalos is ass lmao
Respectfully I will never miss Kalos, but I see the point I think you got a good headspace.
@@Ban-zx9se It's layout is fine besides walls. You can camp on it but be real here that exists on any two plat really.
Walls can be cheesy but they are also a creative element in gameplay that is never really explored or exploited. Even then most of the cheese historically possible is not longer possible or is hard as shit (ex. Samus and Lucario's recoveries)
The blastzones line up pretty well with what's legal, the stage being the same size as FD and having slightly bigger blastzones but that's why it's a counterpick, it's there to give you an advantage if you want to live longer
@@illford6921 1. Your counter pick point would be valid, but it makes the game take longer, so its worse for the viewer AND TO experience
2. Platforms off the stage means that you can camp in an advantageous position, tnc would have this but the plats move and the blastzone is close so it's more risky
@illford6921 I just hate Kalos. I can't articulate why nor would I care to, I just always have a bad time on it.
I was pushing for a more interesting stage list in my ultimate scene for literal years, but unfortunately smash players are so allergic to the idea of stages doing anything remotely interesting that it never went anywhere. Its especially sad that the mentality infects the whole genre, for example, NASB 2 patched out the only stage with slants on it like a month after launch presumably because of that mentality, despite that fact that it was totally balanced and had some really interesting movement and combo implications that will now never be explored.
One of the biggest (albeit slightly exaggerated) criticisms lobbied at Melee is how such a large percentage of its roster is barely viable at best and completely unviable at worst, leaving a large chunk of the game out. It’s crazy how that’s basically the same deal with Ultimate’s stage list. They made such a big deal about nearly every stage being back and it just doesn’t matter for the most dedicated part of the player base.
I’ve come to appreciate MockRock’s videos more as a game designer, because they’re such thorough analyses that get me to look at this genre is new ways. And it shows he’s thought about this stuff as a designer himself.
Also the editing in this video is crazy, stuff like 5:15 were super stylish.
Being forced to play nothing but Omega-forme stages when i play with my siblings has given me a visceral hatred for FD
Smash is probably one of the only games where diversifying the stages brings out it's best. I really don't like that the community decides to ban stages that are completely fine just because one mishap happened on a tournament match. Lylat is still a very good stage. Slants are sick and it's platform layout is among the best.
We're playing the silly Nintendo brawler, let it be silly. That's not to say I don't appreciate what competitive has done for the health of the game but even Rivals of Aether has more complex stages and it's been doing just fine, especially with it's sequel.
People hate lylat that’s not changing unova would fit your criteria as it messed up palus recovery
in fairness i think PM Lylat is the best because it has slanted platforms and a flat main stage
I vehemently hate Lylat only because its ledges are Melee Battlefield’s but somehow even worse. The slants themselves never bothered me, same with both Yoshis stages that have been used
i still have trauma from smash 4 lylat
I remember adamantly arguing for legalizing Pokemon Stadium 2 with its transformations back in Brawl... yet nowadays it would be an even greater debate to just not ban a Lylat Cruise that doesn't tilt and has far more forgiving ledges. I always been of the mindset that stages are an integral part of Smash and that we should be including as many distinct, competitively viable stages as possible, rather than the prevalent mindset of trying to minimize that aspect as much as possible and exclude every stage that isn't absolutely sterile. A big part of my dissatisfaction with later Smash 4 as a competitor was how much the stage variety got truncated down to the bare minimum and I got absolutely sick of Animal Crossing music, I would intentionally strike/ban Smashville just to get a bit of respite from it (and to intentionally annoy opponents who became complacent to only playing Smashville), while I barely ever watched competitive Smash 4 in part due to that. When Ultimate had so many stages and got the stage hazard toggle added, as well as seeing several stage issues addressed (like Lylat's aforementioned ledges and Halberd being given a much higher top blastzone), I initially was optimistic about the competitive stagelist possibilities being far greater than we ever had. Alas, that got quickly dashed by the majority of players being allergic to the slightest stage deviation. I haven't entered a tournament in years, and while my competitive hiatus had nothing to do with Ultimate nor any ruleset issues, the state of modern stagelists certainly isn't encouraging me to get back into it.
For one final note, I'll never understand how people keep complaining about camping and defensive play in general in Ultimate, yet keep picking PS2 over and over, a substantially bigger stage than the rest of the legal stages. A smaller biplat alternative was even added to the game in Small Battlefield, yet people keep defaulting to PS2 and then whine when they get camped.
This video speaks so much to my soul. One of the (many) reasons I stopped competing at all was because I got so sick of only playing on the same 3 stages all the time. The worst part about FD to me is that while the larger competitive community doesn't use FD as much as is memed, the casuals who like to pretend they're competitive do. I have been to so many parties where one person refused to let anyone play on any stage without FD because, according to him, it's the only fair stage, but that unwillingness to play anything else removes the fun for everyone.
This comment speaks to my soul almost more than the video
Dude, the friend group I used to play smash with was like that as well and I fucking hated it. They didn't want to play on stages with platforms because they "dropped combos" and "gave some characters an advantage" it was stupid.
I'm at the lower level of "way too good for anyone around me but washed against someone slightly more competent" and even I started to not like FD. At some point in early Ultimate I was just like "wow, platforms are way more useful than I give them credit for". I basically don't really touch FD anymore when I want to hop back in. As for when I play with my friends, they aren't really that picky the rare chance I get to play them.
i was definitely that guy back when i still played smash. oops
I love FD. It’s my comfort pick and if you don’t ban it I will 100% take you there every time. Unless you play Mac.
I genuinely despise the ultimate competitive stagelist.
The more competitive the game becomes, the more fun is sucked out of it
@@masterofdoots5965 I think it is possible to play at the highest level and still have whimsy in your heart
@@RealityMasterRogue
I understand, but seriously, the fact that people are discussing banning Kalos League because of the walls is ridiculous
I tried out some matches with friends using Min Min's stage, which would have been legal if not for the ceilings, and precisely the ceilings made for some hype and hilarious moments. Missing techs, landing techs away from death, ricocheting off it and still dying... I actually want to persuade my local TOs to consider including it.
Please Mr. I've never played this game, but let me tell everyone they are wrong.
"You shouldn't change rulesets because pro players will have their livelihoods damaged" isn't a great argument in my opinion. The community and/or developers shouldn't have to cater to someone because they decided to make gaming their fulltime job and prize money their main source of income.
It is not "shouldn't" as in "this is not right", but a suggestion: they want to appeal as much players as they can, and with too many livelihoods damaged they may fall out of favor
I'm still a goober that was dumbfounded when I heard people bitch about a company not allowing prize money for tournaments of their games
The idea that prize money was a normal thing in fighting game tournaments
Not a trophy, bragging rights, or fame
It's all warped around a perversion of a cash reward
No wonder the rules are so exceptionally narrow and boring, it's preoccupied with sterilizing everything to just make it a matter of people beating the fuck out of each other digitally for money, not for people to play a game
If they can’t cope with the changes, then that’s quite literally a skill issue, just get better at the game.
I 100% agree. Games should be adapted for their players and developers and for fun, not for a small few players who have decided to be bums and center their lives around a damn game.
The devs messed up by deeming the moving platform on Smashville a Hazard, yet they seemed to try and haphazardly rectify their mistakes by adding competitive stages post-launch like Northern Cave, Small Battlefield and Hollow Bastion, so that people can use those with hazards on instead of Kalos, PS2 and Smashville hazards off, and also get other hazards on stages. Instead, the competitive ruleset went hazards off and essentially doubled up on stages that were almost identical anyway.
Unironically, the fact that there is no room for actual stage play is ridiculous in ultimate. Like...yes, the gentle slopes CAN change a match up. That's what having a character that's better on certain stages are for. That's what counter picking your opponent to a stage their character is worse on is for. Even understanding some of the bigger more abusable stages need to be gone, I will forever mald over the pedantic bullshit of banning no hazards Yoshi Story, it's just asinine.
17:11 Brawlhalla being the wierd one with how much we hate platforms.
The devs made Halo (yes, that Halo), a 4-platform map legal for a ranked season (~2 months) and the community cried hard enough that it got taken off at the earliest opportunity.
Our legal stagelist has 2 different no platform maps (3 are legal, but one is 1v1 only and is replaced by a different no platform map for 2s), and 2 with a single platform thats moves between the left and right sides of the stage before pausing.
When you realise that landing and jumping in this game can be done in 5 frames, and that grounded moves can be used mid-air (think Steve block but a universal mechanic), it makes a bit more sense why platforms are not valued as much in Brawlhalla.
Maps are banned by the loser in this game till there are 3 left, where the winner picks. You basically don't get to choose as a loser.
Brief description of stage list:
2 no platform maps. Small blast zones or wider groundspace but small walls.
2 Single moving platform maps. These maps are basically identical.
2 Dual platforms. One which moves vertically and the other is static very high off the ground
2 Tri plats. One is wide and flat, the other is a bit more vertical.
bralhala sucks
Its also worth noting that other air focused fighting games like Marvel vs Capcom, Guilty Gear, or Melty Blood have air teching, making juggles way less powerful than they are in smash. So them having uniformly flat stages is way less of an issue.
i would say air teching is not the reason that is the case, and that it’s rather the rarity or even absence of quick moves that send up and come out above the character to set any sort of juggle up. air teching is quite similar to airdodge in function too, and it isn’t keeping juggles from being strong in platform fighters.
I'd actually say that the main difference with those sorts of games is that there are ONLY flat stages. Every stage is identical in layout, so if something is broken or bad on literally the only layout it just is broken or bad in general.
Players of traditional 2D fighters will generally ban any stage that isn't exactly identical to the others (such as "Fetus of God" in Vampire Savior, which is much longer than average).
There just hasn't been any sort of "stage game" historically and I think most people agree that those games don't need it.
Also Guilty Gear Strive doesn't actually have Air Tech, but does have a very intense Gravity Scaling mechanic.
@@xetsuma what did you mean by “stage game”
@@viewerguy10 I mean like picking stages being a meaningful part of the game
@@xetsuma3D fighting games like Tekken and Virtua Fighter are right there.
I've had a similar idea with wanting Smash 6 to evolve the hazard toggle into full on alt modes of stages built to be more competitively friendly. Kongo Falls could remove the rock ledge and topmost platform like you said, Spring Stadium could take away the ceiling panels, Arena Ferox could stick to the statue layout only (with the statues unbreakable and unable to block projectiles), Prism Tower could start and stay on one of the middle layouts, etc. Could even give FD's variant a less intrusive background! Include them in the same toggle as Battlefield/Omega variants instead of being dependent on ruleset, and you have something that could legitimately help the stage select stagnation every Smash game so far has fallen into.
Doing that for all stages seems like a hassle.
And maybe its me being pessimistic, but I feel like even with all of these potential toggles, it still isn’t going to be enough as the competitive scene is extremely strict with anything that isn’t a flat stage or battle field
I agree, that would be an excellent addition.
Glad to see more discussion around stages. We've been talking about characters for years at this point, so any other topic is very refreshing.
YO THE WISLEY COLLAB IS REAL (awesome to see a recognizable face from the Rivals community popin up around one of my favorite general plat fighter channels)
How fitting that Sakurai dropped his "Average = Mediocre" video today. Perfect balance just isn't fun. Then again, apparently he thought that Ganondorf was the best character in Brawl, so who knows?
Also yeah, they do need to put visual clarity into the next Smash Bros game. New talent on the Smash dev team would be cool, some of their current design philosophies are oddly outdated
Ngl I take Sakurai’s opinion with only a pinch of salt, more than a grain, but still a pinch.
@@Krona-fb4dnSakurai’s opinion matters the most out of everyone’s, because he’s the developer. What he thinks is balanced and what he thinks isn’t, determines the game’s balance.
For example, him saying he believed Ganondorf was the best character in Brawl, goes to show how little he viewed gliding as a major mechanic, and by proxy Meta Knight.
It’s the same for any developer really, their understanding of what people like and dislike determines what they do, trying to appeal to a large demographic tends to change things quite considerably. And Smash is constantly changing with each new installment as a testament to this fact.
@@zekromfan1 I was stating that Sakurai is quite disagreeable and questionable in his decisions for Smash as a game, hence why I said I would take his opinion with a pinch of salt.
Cause otherwise ??? balance isn’t determined simply by the opinion of a project’s leader. Unchecked leadership can lead to oversight and errors, and simply because “he made it” doesn’t mean what he solely did is right/not able to be criticized.
Is it right that Sakurai inherently kneecapped the entire competitive future of the franchise because “Think of the CASUALS?! 😢” and made Brawl inherently just against fostering a competitive scene, which was around the time that Melee did almost die out or would’ve gone very differently and that would’ve significantly impacted how the game is seen even by Sakurai and gaming as a whole. Or on why we would never have another level of cutscenes and story like Subspace cause “shit, people posted the cutscenes online, NEVER AGAIN.”
Sakurai goes against his own word and past decisions that seemed fairly solid when they were said. Animal Crossing Characters were deemed too cute, Ridley as far too big, etc.
Point is, to say “his opinion matters the most out of everyone’s because he’s the developer.” ignores the fact that his opinion still stands as just an opinion and even those aren’t infallible. (IE Ridley) I dislike it since it is making a God out of Sakurai when he really should not have that. He’s a guy and he just decides what should go into a game, some good, some bad.
I could be wrong but I believe the Ganondorf opinion isn't real. I've never been able to find the source for that opinion myself.
@@Dudex11a He played Ganondorf in a Japanese commercial for Brawl IIRC(?) it might’ve been from a game guide for the time or akin to that.
Either way it’s still very funny since Brawl was the first game to have a balance team work on it.
You know, I've been thinking about how cowardly people get about hazards. Yeah, things like walkoffs are obviously no good, but slight slants? Disappearing and reappearing platforms? Transforming stages? Y'all are scared of this? Grow a backbone guys.
At the end of the day, competitors are the ones that pick the stages. There have been plenty of tourney's with Castle Siege or Lylat legal, except nobody picks them because everyone hates playing on them
I dont see why walk-offs are so bad tho.
@@jamainegardner4193 You just die so fast on them. For a while I didn't get it either until I played ultimate with a degree of frequency, but you can get obliterated way too easily when you can walk straight up to the blast zone. Having that gap of empty space makes it harder to chase people all the way to the zone and easier for the disadvantaged person because they have more options in the air.
Even though I'm never bothered by this visual clarity background noise to begin with, my real reason why Brawl's Final Destination is by far my favourite is the music. It's my favourite bit in the series and the fact that the background syncs up with it gives it an onminous story to tell on it's own. There are other stages that does this, such as.....Paper Mario, but this is still peak.
Support Combo Devils. The stages are gonna be crazy in that game.
the game wont feel like glue and achilles is peak design
I love the fact that the Items off Fox only Final Destination meme was referenced in family guy
It was?
@@ballisticboo7808 summarizing what happened: a guy was training Peter I don't remember why, and he asked to peter "What would you do in a Melee fight?" And Peter says "I'd turn items off, choose fox and pick final destination" and after an awkward silence he says "Sorry I only know the word "Melee" from Super Smash Bros"
I wish we lived in a timeline where part of the meta is pro players playing a dangerous game on balloon hunts edge constantly swapping which side their on thanks to the stages unique gimmic.
Smash should find a solution to the wall problem so more stages with walls could be picked for battles. Id love to play on hyrule castle if I had some kind of wall attack if I ever got stuck on the right wall when hit with weak attacks.
Force EVERY stage to have some kind of jankiness. Don't even spare Battlefield, it needs to have weirdness too, otherwise everything will just be played there
What's the wall problem?
@@AcidicSalt if you get hit by weak enough attacks at a wall in smash bros, you can essentially get stuck in an infinite combo as you can do nothing to get out since you are not moving anywhere. its especially bad if you happen to play with a stamina ruleset. so if smash added an attack you can do when you are stunned next to a wall to get out it would open up the list of stages people can play on since an infinite combo will be less likely.
@@MrMariosonicman Thought you meant walls as in the sides of stages
Can't think off the top of my head where the walls keep it from being competitively viable
@@AcidicSalt hyrule castle n64 with hazards off has a wall on the right side of the stage you could get comboed in.
there would also be shadow moses where your only KO option is the top blast zone. due to the giant walls.
Even as a college dorm lobby warrior, I always regarded Battlefield as the most "fair" stage in the game, rather than Final Dest.
I'm so relieved to see this video and comments like this. I used to think I was insane for hating FD.
We talk about the obnoxious visuals, but that's actually similar one of the things that's really hard for me when it comes to smash 4 and ultimate when trying to play casually. There's a lot of lights and effects with moves and getting hit, which are really pretty, but with a lot of people playing, especially with 8 player smash, make it really hard to tell what's going on, which I feel is toned back a little with earlier smash titles. It just makes it genuinely hard to play for me at times. But that's really just me.
Still really pretty though.
For instance, take later into the clip starting around 28:15, where there's a whole bunch of things happening and flashy lights, and it's hard to even tell who's where
Edit: One of the real problems is just how far the death explosions stretch. They cover like half the screen.
Imagine a platform fighter that heavily used walls as part of its core gameplay. Like, every character could have some sort of wall move; and when hit against a wall, you could time a transition into your character's wall move(s).
This video rules! It's actually way more interesting to see stuff from just all platform fighters instead of just ultimate. Means I learn a lot more!
i do think it's funny how often smash releases what i like to call 'almost competitive' stages in their DLC, between smash 4's umbra clock tower (some platforms go under the stage, one of the platforms has a solid ceiling) and ult's yggdrasil's altar (start has a walkoff like halberd), spring stadium (small techable ceilings at the top of the screen) and minecraft world (too large), for what seems like an effort to provide more competitively viable yet slightly spicy stages into the discussion, and they all get shot down, with the only ones actually getting added being the truly sterile ones like northern cave and hollow bastion (of which, northern cave got later banned in my region for being 'too similar to fd/town', and bastion actually being amazing and being a beloved staple in my region). i do wish there was more interest in these 'spicier' stages but it seems to me that at the end of the day players just dont want to learn the new things and would rather focus on the characters, which is valid
Man... we need a hazards on ruleset so bad. It's totally doable too! I think that the lack of stage variety is (part of) what has my motivation for competition so low right now. Almost every single game - not set, GAME - in my local scene is played on PS2, even though it's more unbalanced than Small Battlefield. I even started modding my copy of Smash just to look at something different or listen to different music from what I have grown accustomed to in every tournament set. Crazy how the Smash game with the most content ushered in an era of competitors using the smallest proportion of content from it. Great video!
As someone who can understand the pain of editing something for hours, only for it to be a few second joke and not have people really appreciate it, I have to say that 11:35 is a fucking AMAZING edit. Great green screen, cute reference, and overall funny that made me laugh. Really appreciate the time you probably put into this few second joke and again was legitimately funny
I took my Health class final exam today...and wasn't expecting a MockRock video to be my reward afterwards. It's going to be a great treat.
I've always felt like being able to utilize the terrain of a stage should be just as important as knowing your character matchups and combos. Including terrain that might be a bit more complex than "a flat stage and maybe a few flat platforms". Adaptation is part of competition, another level of mastery one can hone.
But then I'm not nor will I ever be a competitive player. Just a casual who can put up a modest fight in any stage you throw me on.
It’s quite literally a skill issue on their end
Mementos and Castle siege are such cool layouts I'm so sad they're not legal :(
Yes pls. Also, I would like to see Yggdrasil legal. I love playing on it with competitive rules
Unfortunately walkoffs no matter how briefly are a no they are genuinely awful for competition
You won’t be sad once sonic is running the timer on the stage
@@jmurray1110hazards off Castle Siege. Second Phase Castle Siege is awful - the first is the one people argue for.
Mementos is legal at my college tournaments (I'm the TO)
The Metroid dread ewgf clip got me laughing
I found funny that smash was born with the idea of being wacky, with weird stages, funny items, and random stuff always happening, but the competitive scene is that sanitized, it doesn't feel like smash anymore, I would kill for more wacky tournaments with weird stages and items turned on, it would be really fun, and it would feel like a real smash tournament
8:53 the editing of these videos has always been phenomenal, but some of the graphics you’ve included here have been especially clean! It reminds me of Persona 5’s UI!
Reminds me that Kalos was banned because the lip on the ledge screwed with Palutena's recovery a bit... back when she was considered a solid candidate for best character in the game.
Yeah, I love Ultimate, but its players are bitchmade when it comes to stage selection.
You mean Unova
The smash community: why do we always play on ps2?
Also the smash community: let's ban everything because i don't like this small aspect about these stages even though it might actually be completely fair
Tbf the diverse additions like Warioware tend to be overcenturalizing and is very hard to even practice in a competitive environment well over 5 years old. Granted, I’m still in the camp that we should at least TRY new stagelists, but with how stage striking tends to just get rid of overpowering stage/character combination like Kazuya on FD, it’s so easy to just default back to PS2 lmao
Smash devs messed up the stages, not the players.
@@justice8718 Oh really now. Please, tell me: why is Corneria banned? You know, the Star Fox stage where you fight on a spaceship with 3 platforms.
@@astralnekomimi Stalling on the ship’s gun department.
@@justice8718 Not talking about the Melee one, that one deserves a ban. The Brawl(?) Star Fox map where you fly through space.
The clip of "LADDERS" from Community was god-like, thank you so much, it made my day xD
Multiversus has some interesting stages, and the competitive community cried about most of them. The interesting thing that happened though was MVS introduced stages with walls that can be destroyed. Two stages have destructible walls, one of which has the walls serve as platforms. One stage starts as triplat, but when the walls are destroyed it's single platform, and the other becomes final destination when the walls are destroyed. Multiversus actually has a few competitive stages that feature destructible environments and they seem to be pretty well received.
Honestly, I think the issue has to do with the perception within parts of the fighting game community that smash, in all variants, is not a fighting game. And that stigma is what drives this competitive ideal of the only stage that should be played on is battlefield or PKS2
Now let me be clear, I am not in that camp. I think smash bros is a fighting game that requires just as much(if not more) skill expression as games like mortal kombat or tekken. Yes we don’t have to master hard inputs for tons of different moves(unless you play one of those bois) or nearly as many combo lines, but what we don’t have with that we make up for with a mastery of stage layout and a wider understanding of the various positions in a game(advantage, neutral, disadvantage)
And this conception of “no items, fox only, final destination” really speaks to this kind of mindset of wanting to be accepted by that section of the fighting game community. FD is probably the closest thing we have to a stage from street fighter or guilty gear, so it’s this notion that it’s the “closest” we could get to being a fighting game.
Now this isn’t the only thing that’s been an uphill battle smash bros has had to climb to gain legitimacy in the eyes of many. It certainly doesn’t help that the company that makes and maintains the game seems to be, at best, uncaring about its competitive scene or, at worst, openly hostile to it. But this concept of FD being the only competitively legitimate stage in the eyes of some has caused a sense of the need to prove that smash is a game of character skill(and only that) but just in a different form.
I mean at this point the meme has basically never gone away and rather just changed form slightly. Now more currently the meme might as well be “no items, hazards off, Pokemon stadium 2, steve only.”
And I agree the drive to win will require several stages to be banned no matter what. Obviously I’m not asking for Great Cave Offensive to be legal. But if you are a competitive player who can preform at a high level consistently, the slowly moving side platforms of Kirby’s Dreamland should not so “ruin the competitive viablility of the stage” that it is rendered as just a slight battle field variation. We as a community need to start being able to embrace these stages that can provide even just a little bit of an environment element to every game, even those at a competitive level.
TL;DR: Smash bros is a game that should do more to embrace the wide variety of stage and stage layouts, not reduce it to the same 5 or 6 we have been using for the last 2 decades
It is so funny to watch melee play on Pokemon Stadium, who's lack of competitiveness is only rivalrd by Auto scrollers and walk offs, and then see ultimate players want to ban basically every stage.
More and more Melee tournaments have been freezing Pokemon Stadium in recent years, which is honestly sad to see. Melee still at least has Dreamland, Fountain of Dreams, and Yoshi's Story, though, all of which have some combination of slants somewhere on the stage, platforms that move for longer than the first five seconds, walls below the stage that can be jumped off of, and actual hazards to deal with.
Aside from Town and City (which is honestly kind of tame in this regard), you can not say this about any of the tournament legal stages in Ultimate.
@@TheTrueBrawler PS2 is honestly like, one of the most sensible stage to change. Even among janky stages it's pretty bad. There's something to say about changing the game code, but I think in the age of emulators more and more players are more okay with playing something similar, but not identical, to the base game.
@@TheTrueBrawlerthe fact that people have been pushing to remove some of the less standard stuff from the melee competitive stagelist (whispy blowing wind, fly guys on yoshi’s) is really sad and I’m thankful it hasn’t gotten all that much traction
Never has it been more obvious how pissy ult players are about stages than with the whole unova situation. People were so bad at recovering that it ended up being banned pretty much worldwide just because they couldn’t be bothered to learn how to recover. They’ll say it was because it was hard to see but it’s really not
12:10 is that Coney screaming YAHOO in the background? Lmaoo
I never really liked ultimate’s competitive stage list. I always wished there would be more stages being used. I know that some stages need to be banned but man I wish we had more unique stages to play on in a competitive environment. Like I never completely understood how with hazards off we can’t play on Mementos? Is there some broken exploit I’m missing?
It's the slanted ground. Immediately renders it banned. Smash platers and slants do not get along.
@@castform7 On top of that, its just way too big. Any character with moderate air speed could circle camp really easily.
@@HiImAiden Oh yeah, I was going to mention that I thought the blast zones were really far off but the stage's size itself also poses a problem.
I kind of feel like the final nail in the coffin is the inability to easily toggle hazards per stage. Like, I _love_ hazardless PS2 in Ultimate so much, but why do I have to lose out on the interesting and dynamic platforms of Fountain of Dreams or the transformations of Pokémon Stadium (Melee) and everything else just to have this one great simple stage at all?
It meant that in order to have access to all the great hazardless stages, all the great hazards-on stages had to basically be completely cut.
They've put a bandage on it by giving us new stages with similar layouts to PS2, Kalos, and hazardless Smashville that are available with hazards on, but it's still only a bandage fix.
I'm happy you talked about the Steve tool issue. Back in the days, when I talked about it, no one cared to listen (Great Cave Offensive in battlefield form uses the 3 tools ffs, 3 tools!)
The biggest issue of smash ultimate's stage ruleset is that it does not implement DSR, which has always baffled me as a melee player
Not only it is mind numbing as a spectator to see PS2 in 80% of games, but it also removes stage mastery even further by allowing you to counterpick the same strongest unbanned stage every single time
What's DSR?
@@echo.romeo. Dave's stupid rule, basically if you win on a stage then you can't go back to that stage for the rest of the set. Ultimate has modified DSR which is you can't go to the same stage you just won on until you win on a different stage.
Absolutely agree, i hate how sterile stages are in platform fighters
Why is Yoshi’s Story banned in Ultimate tournaments when it’s always been legal in Melee? If Melee pros can work around slopes at ledge, even make them interesting, then Ultimate pros should work around them just the same. Cope
Because people complain about the slant, it's dumb.
@@666blaziken the slant was in Melee too!
Competitive players don't really want to learn to deal with slants. Since Ultimate has a huge stage list there's also no need for them to do so. There's more than enough legal stages with less stuff to deal with.
It's more boring this way though.
@@amadeus.7436Competitive players dealt with it in Melee, thus, they should deal with it in Ultimate as well. What makes it legal in one game, but not in another?
@@joshuaheins4018 Because the options for legal stages in Melee were fewer. They had to deal with it if they wanted a decent number of legal stages.
In Ultimate they don't have to do that because there's too many legal stages, to the point where tournaments have to exclude stages that could be considered legal because it would mess up with counter-pickings and such.
While Ultimate players definitely could learn to deal with it there's just not enough players who care to do it when they don't have to.
From the editing to the collabs and clip usage, even just the actual writing of the script i think this video is your best ever. I think its a perfect representation of how your chanels grown man, nice work.
I feel like there are at least 3-5 stages that can be argued for viability, but the Ultimate community will just default to PS2 anyways.
Sad but very true. I don't have much hate for PS2, personally (I actually find frozen PS in Melee slightly more interesting than unfrozen), but seeing it played on for potentially 3-10 games straight is almost mind-numbing. Allowing one run-back is fine, but seeing it happen multiple times is just...arrrgh.
There is probably more to what Coney is saying, but my response to what was said is, “what difference would it make?” If I was the best player in the world, would that make asking for a change in stagelists more valid?
Very good video. It's always nice to see that there are people who think about what skills tournament should rewards and realize how stage knowledge has been less and less important over the years. The hazards switch was a mistake that killed stage individuality and I wouldn't mind if it was gone in the next game.
Or make it be a toggle available on the stage select screen and have what is/isn't a hazard be more consistent
The guys who ran SmashHood Tournaments had similar feelings toward the competitive scene. Ultimately their tournaments had their own rules and occasional gimmicks, but they were super entertaining to watch due to the variety of characters and stages.
If you guys haven’t checked them out, I would definitely recommend them. They are the perfect middle ground between super competitive and casual competitive.
I do think the no items, only certain stages ruleset every tournament uses should stay the default, but i think there should at least be a parallel scene that has all items on, all stages included, spirits allowed, amiibos allowed, etc., just because i want to see what kind of chaotic meta would develop from top level players having to deal with all that bullshit. It would be like a second version of the Olympics that allows doping just to see what the hell would happen
Was listening more in the background while eating lunch, and you triggered a *freeze* from me playing E.M.M.I. sounds while talking Kazuya.
I feel like a strong solution to ultimate stage list would be to run a Hazards ON ruleset instead, it's too bad we're pretty late into the games meta now and people would not be happy to get rid of PS2. If we COULD make a sacrafice like that though we could run stages like moving smashville, Yoshi story with Randall would have a reason to exist, and even Fountain of Dreams would be diverse enough to make a reason to add it to round out a more refined ruleset.
Im so glad mockrock is still uploading on his second channel! 😁😁😁
About that last little bit on Yoshi’s Island. Maybe the Ultimate rendition is better on this front, but in Melee, those Shy Guys do indeed cause problems. Sometimes it’s hitbox extension, and sometimes it’s “Shy Guy DI”, where you can SDI every individual hit into a Shy Guy when launched, resulting in complete chaos for followup hits.
And also half the time, stages aren’t banned for just slopes (except for when they cause jank to happen) or just moving platforms (except the time Tempest Peak needed to be reworked in Rivals of Aether 1), but also walls causing infinites to happen
one of the things that really makes competitive ultimate disappointing is the rather samey and uninteresting stagelist. Like what is the point of stage striking anyways if every stage is the same. it also just makes the game less fun, like sure I'm here to win, but I also want to have fun.
Great video as always!
This is just a thought, but I love how your sassy humor and funny editing has been made more explicit on these analysis videos throughout the years. The information, as always, is top notch, and I also see more about yourself on little bits like the Kazuya on Metroid Dread and the final message on Pokemon Stadium hazards, which is both hilarious and authentic.
Anyways, I love your content, keep it up!
Holy hell your editing on this was incredible. I also love the narrative hook you opened this with linking it to your own experience, overall great storytelling and presentation man!!
Great analysis. I agree that it would be really nice if hazard-toggle wasn't so binary (and easier to toggle straight from the stage-select screen), and if alternate layouts were possible.
This topic makes me think of how fights in other mediums are generally way more interesting when the environment is a major element - hazards, cover, loose items, what have you (look at many of Jackie Chan's fights, for instance) - than a straight flat-empty-room-punch-up (especially in, say, a tabletop RPG like Dungeons & Dragons). It would be great to see smart use of the environment play a bigger factor in something like Smash, but at the same time it's understandable that tournament play wants to strip away unpredictable elements in favor of a pure test of skill. Hopefully a middle ground can be found in the future.
On items, I think it’s important to note that items have only gotten more meta warping & more intrusive as the games have gone along. I have seen melee pros play with items on and have engaging, compelling games. I have never seen ultimate pros play with items & have a good match.
Idk if there’s any surviving footage but Mango / Axe Wednesdays frequently used banned stages and items if you wanted a citation.
10:45 it's actually closer to positive on shield in a sense because I've seen stocks taken by kazuya because the opponent shielded near a ledge and he kicked them directly out of their shield and offstage. filth.
12:00 I love this transition
Last thing I was expecting from this video was a Klay World reference within the first minute, but it's there and suddenly I feel a lot younger.
The worst part is that with the release of Fighter Pack 2, there's enough stages that should be tournament legal with hazards on, that there's no need for the super sterile set of supermassive stages seen at every tournament.
We could instead have Battlefield, Small Battlefield, Final Destination, Hollow Bastion, Smashville, Northern Cave, Town and City, and Lylat. I don't think any of those should be controversial (Lylat used to have issues, but it was patched a long time ago and now the ledges work as they should). Personally I'd also throw Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story, and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) in there as well, but throwing Fountain and Story in with Battlefield makes three tri-plats, even if they are all different, so I understand not wanting to triple up there.
But either way, I agree that moving platforms and small minor slopes should be part of the competitive experience that needs to be played around.
Glad to see a video give a thorough breakdown on not only FD but ultimate’s stage list as a whole since I find it sad that the stagelist has gotten smaller over time. While thinking about the stagelists, a random thought I had about them was what if we had 2 stagelists where one list is hazards only and a hazard-less list. The set would start with only hazard-less list available and after the first match the opponent has the option to pick from a hazards on stagelist or continue picking from the hazard-less stagelist and banning and stage picking would remain the same from there and this would continue until the set ends.
the sketchy visuals in this are so beautiful they look great
BABE WAKE UP NEW MOCKROCK VIDEO WE’RE EATING GOOD
What is the European stage list? I like stages like Skyloft/Wuhu Island/Castle Siege because they are close enough to a competitive stage to be (somewhat) balanced as a counterpick, but they are also not the standard stage list, meaning I can get some variety. If Europe has more stages like that, please tell me where to find the European stage list.
I wish rulesets had more stage variety. My scene is European ruleset, and still I wish we had more stages like WarioWare or anything to break the tension. Older titles may "settle" for worse stages, but man is the ultimate stagelist a bit bland
hazards off become the ruleset because so many people were fucking up by forgetting to turn hazards on or off for the stage that TOs stopped doing it due to soo much wasted time
we tried it
Last I checked, Lumirank is trying to get NA to have a unified ruleset which may address some the issues you presented.
It may also introduce seasons which would drastocally expand what stages become legal
Loved that final part, I love stages in platform fighters, honestly more than the fighters themselves, so seeing not only the vast majority getting overlooked by pros but also that trend creeping up in other platform fighters is honestly so disappointing..
My biggest want for an Ultimate mod would be one that makes every stage more viable, like Figure 8 without the walkout would be so amazing for example! And Mario Maker's randomizer could 100% be reworked to only give viable stages.
I'm all in on Rivals 2. The devs have shown a willingness not to take themselves entirely seriously, so there's a chance we'll get wacky stages as DLC eventually.
OMG yes a stage-by-stage hazard toggle is so badly needed jeez
And yes, the fact that the Smashville platform doesn't move and that Yoshi's Story loses Randall is exactly why I've wanted this haha. Although I'm happy to lose the Fly Guys.
I'm glad that Klayword is in someone else's mind because I've never heard anyone make a reference to it
Hey kids! Wanna play a platform fighter where you will play on a stage with no platforms almost every set you play?
Fantastic video. Thank you! Wish you had mentioned Project M 3.6 stages as I think some of them really do hit that balance too. Also Smack Studio which is experimenting with custom stages for more unique and custom tourney stage rulesets.
The most fun I have ever had watching competitive Smash (Whitch I'll admit is pretty low on the games I have watched) is Alpharad's Items on rule sets. Watching the best players in the world fight with brand new rule sets or having to fight hard DK was great and I want to see more of it.
I'll also compare it to competitive Starcraft 2 something that I also have not followed in a decent amount of time until a few days ago where a mod (that's not tournament legal...yet) combines the factions of Brood war, it's over 20 years old parent game, with the modern ones. Pro's from both games are now playing it just for fun and that's ignoring the years of free for all and 2v2/3v3/4v4 and Archon mode (2/3/4 players on one base making for insane Mirco battles) popping up from time to time. None of these modes could make it into competitive but they are still fun to see.
Granted it's also more so that Blizzard feels better about modding and....well everything compared to Nintendo.
I would also like to mention the maps in comp SC2 are also getting more stale with the craziest maps have like rocks blocking a 3rd base 9/10 times also being pushed by the Pro's, but after seeing the most recent balance patch made by pro's I can say: Pros are not game designers.
Ultimately to coolest stuff to watch is not often the coolest stuff to play, and when you need to eat, sleep, and breathe a game. A bad map could leave many players burnt out.
the frame interpolation on the slow-mo parts looks really bad and makes it very hard to tell whats going on
I'm curious as to what you think about Hyperborean Harbor in Rivals 2. A solid counterpick? Should be tuned down?
26:22 A point of not having a wider stage list, is the fact that many debated is quite similar. If I for example wanted to ban Battlefield, as I don't like its layout, I would *also* have to ban Dreamland and Yoshi's story. But with normally 2 bans, my opponent can STILL take me to a triplat stage. Should we then increase the amount of bans? Make it 4? 5? That brings more problems
If you ban BF, have that count as a tri plat ban, it's not a difficult solution really
@@Helios2737 I am pretty sure this was how Battlefield and Dreamland were handled during stage banning in Smash 4. I don't get why this method gets written off as too confusing now.
I know metas happenn for a reason, but this video speaks to the very reason I gave up competive fighters way back in the MvC2 days.
We sometimes complacent a game so hard that the things that make it fun and interesting fall away. Seeing the same characters played or stages, even in non platform fighters makes watching less interesting.
Like MvC3U. You can only see a Zero lightning loop so many yimes before it just stops being fun to watch. And I'm all gor visually clarity, but training stages aren't interesting to watch, and I argue give players an advantage as they donnot have yo think as hard about spacing givng a lot of them have that baked in.
I want variety back, seeing people play around hazard and changes.
My spiciest stage take will always be that *hazards off* Halberd is not only a good stage, but a potentially competitively viable moving stage. I think if this video has taught anything, it's that a single raised platform isn't as neutral as it seems, and the other layout is filled to the brim with little elements that competitive gets jumpscared by, but it's fully predictable and introduces a lot more nuanced play. I think the only part that would fail is the walk offs, and I wish they were included in the hazards off toggle.
But certainly I think a moving stage is potentially viable for the same reason Randall is - if it's predictable in a way that players can make use of it without getting blindsided, then who is to say it's unviable? Part of these games are adapting to situations, and I think part of the reason the stage list has gotten hollowed out to the point of stale is that people practice one mode of play at all times. Terrain play in more varied forms is important.
honestly the aversion to slopes is the one competative thing i never got, it's a platform fighter verticality in combat is the name of the game and downwards slopes at edges give way more options to the disadvantaged player making comebacks way easier.
besides no other compatitive game bans slopes, i hate tf2's 6's control points format but they allow ample slopage for the stock soldiers to slide up or the scouts to double jump onto at various levels, amd that is another format which is so seperated from the base game it discourages counter picking so the game can't drag on not because the format is a well designed condensation of the game with the randomness striped out (i'd honestly say highlander is that format) but a boiling away at complexity until only the fundamentals are left.
eradicating slopes in competitive smash is a tradgedy, in the same way some characters benefit more from flat or platformed stages, it could have been an oportunity for counter picks and lifting some lower teir characters into viable counter picks.
this level of sanding the games complexity down for the sake of achievement is honestly on the level of arbitrary code execution in speedruns, at a certain point you aren't even playing the game anymore and it saps away the potential fun you could be having to a point catagories which reintroduce elements of the game into it become more popular, be it glitchless speedruns or funilly enough highlander forcing the use of every class making players have to adapt to otherwise "non meta" elements and make them work, like you're not gonna get a competitive spy in 6's or get to use pyro as a medic bodygaurd against demos because none of these classes show up in sixes.
you can probably tell which comp community i stem from lol
Actually a really cool looking sponsor. I don't have any cash rn, but I'll look into these guys.
24:30
And the best Final Destination Theme by far GRAHHHHHH
Hyrule temple was my childhood, we still go play in the box from time to time