Correct. Narcissistic spectrum personality (or character) disorders are such that the person thinks they are just fine while everyone else needs improvement, but everyone else suffers. This is in contrast to something like mental illness, where the actual person suffers and wants to get better.
The victim only suffers until they figure out the entire "relationship" is a figment of their imagination. The post-realization grief is also a form of suffering, but the type that can leave a person much stronger, wiser, and more compassionate for self and others dealing with similar abuse. Exquisitely painful, but worthwhile healing.
I have shared a few vulnerabilities with the narc in my life,as normal humans do: we share. This person always remembers and uses them for shaming me! It's so infuriating. Never admit ANY weakness to these people.
I share personal info at all - no thoughts, opinions, ideas, experiences, memories, joys, challenges . . .nothing about myself or anyone else. It's extremely enlightening how determined the narcissistic people in my life are to gossip judge, and second-guess others. They lose interest in me very quickly when I offer nothing but "oh" or "uh-huh."
I saw mommy dearest put on a mask and sweetly tell her friend on the phone what a great job I was doing to assist her when she was diagnosed with leukemia and getting ready to die, right in front of me. She hung up and immediately turned on me like a rabid dog. How could she not see that? Mind boggling.
She did see that. They calculate these things. I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Please protect yourself by following Dr. Carter's advice. You don't deserve to be treated badly.
@@therealJamieJoy Thanks. In retrospect I saw it coming, but just did not want to believe it. I know you know what I mean. Comforting in itself. Thank you for your reply.
@@therealJamieJoy Someone gave people a toolbox to deal with such things. Unfortunate it had to come to that. Good news is I am going north when they are headed south. Never want to see them again. My conscience is clean.
I do truly Love you and am grateful to you Dr. C!!! Everything you describe is my reality and total experience with the worst of these entities. It's life altering if not totally disabling having been exposed to the damage they do with impunity. If not for you, I realize how insane I might have been by now trying to describe them and their deep seated psychological miswire.
In Thanksgiving: { USA 🇺🇸} : btw: Media Technical Support People and Staff at Doctor Les Carter, Ph.D.: ( Presentation- Awareness- mental health) : thank you 😊
@SurvivingNarcissism Sir , you have been a guide during my ongoing custody battle. It's almost over. Understanding has made it possible for me to be patient and make the best choices for my little boy. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Why doesn’t the lawyers, judges, psychiatrist and report writers pick up on it instead of victimising the victims and putting innocent children back in the unsafe situation???
My understanding is that they can be trained to understand narcissism, but generally speaking the term by itself is too vague to be useful in the legal system. What they prefer is a description of actual actions and events that occurred, preferably recorded. In other words, real and actual evidence; a mere label of "narcissism" is not helpful. Also not helpful is saying "I was abused" without specifying where, how, under what circumstances and how often. This includes positive evidence, such as documented visits with social workers to discuss how to be an even better parent to the child, because saying "I'm a good parent" means nothing by itself in terms of evidence. The problem is that abuse is usually done in private and not recorded, so it's not given as much weight as recorded abuse. What matters is credible evidence.
Even if you’re logical with the narcissist with proof they’re still so delusional. My therapist asked me a few questions yesterday. How old would you say or do you think you’re speaking to when your husband is messaging you these things? I laughed and said I’m not trying to be mean but I feel like I talk to a toddler. She said, yes, you are. Somewhere between the age range of 3-5.. he may understand what you’re saying but in his mind his thinking is of a toddler. It’s so sad and I truly wished he would get help. He turns to drugs and alcohol to cope and is destroying his life at record speed
You made me laugh out loud. . . "yeh, if I'm hurting it's because of that idiot over there" OMG, so true, I think I've actually heard those exact words. . . .
As someone else on Team Healthy said, when you are discarded, count it as a blessing and an open door through which you can walk and close the boundary behind you.
As a high-end craftsman, earlier in my career "white kitchens" were very popular. I began noticing habits with the customers who preferred all-white kitchens. I labeled them "vanilla people". Once I learned to spot them upfront, it made my service easier at the end. That is when a narcissist will be more apparent--- they can be very charming in the beginning, yet very entitled and devaluing later in the project. Habitual people are the "vanilla people".
The young lady with the boyfriend & going to therapy???? Run for your life Married 24 yr went to therapy with narc spouse. They LOVE THERAY It’s a story all about them. Great supply. Remember your there with a third grader . I’m 11 mo out divorce signed this story is very clear to me now
Hi Dr C. I have a narcissist 'friend' who seems genuinely baffled as to why people speak negatively of him behind his back and avoid spending time with him. He also seems confused as to why no-one will speak with him directly about this. Is he really that blind regarding his behaviour towards others? Thanks for all your contributions Dr C 🙏
We appreciate you, sweet Dr. carter! I also loved that interview you did with the author on “The covert passive aggressive narcissist.” Thank you so much for making all this content available, Blessings and much love!
Nobody is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. Why is it so hard for the narcissist to admit that. Immaturity and lack of a larger world perspective is my hypothesis.
I was married 25 years and I honestly cannot recall ever hearing my spouse say simply, "I'm sorry." I do have many memories of asking her to say that followed by, "Well I think we both played a role in that" or "Did you ever think that maybe you have done similar things to me before?" or "What about what you said to me last month?"
@@ncbeachbumintx Their minds inside must look like convoluted spider webs. Confusion by rationalization is so ugly to watch or listen to. Thanks for your reply.
If it helps anyone to the woman asking how they can help the narcissistic person in their life situation? The Watts family was annihilated by the father. His wife before she passed purchased many books for her spouse to try to help him which were later found in the trash. Smh. That really woke me up to the fact that it’s not my job to impose myself on someone else even if they are sick.I believe his wife saved many lives. Love.
Ohhhhhhh Dr. Carter!!!! You just gave the best comic relief for the "debbie downer" vulnerable narcissist!!!! I will forever remember "I got diarrhea there once" whenever dealing with narcissists of ANY type!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Thank you so much!!❤😂
In my family, when I said I had seen a psychiatrist to get help (I was anxious and depressed) it was used against me. The entire extended family regarded me as mentally disturbed. Every thing I said from then on was disregarded. Even when it came to light I had been fostered out as a child. They just blamed me, and my foster parents.
I have a relative who can never mind her own business. She must see herself as the one who has the power to influence outcomes, and be the director in other people's lives. Then when it blows up in her face her answer is: "The road to hell is paved with the best intentions." She really believes everyone will do better if they subjugate themselves to her! And, she'll barrel ahead without knowing the facts, or even CONSIDERING that she doesn't know enough about a situation. Does this sound like a young person who hasn't learned how to behave? She's 52 !!!
Dr. Carter, I get that same twitch in my eye once in a while, as well. Sometimes its when I’m in need of sleep, or stressed, or a combo of factors, or I don’t know 🤷🏼♀️ I imagine it’s probably a lot more noticeable to us the twitcher 😉 than those who may be around us. Can’t wait to watch your interview with Debbie. Thank you so much for all you share in your videos, both the incredible content and you yourself Dr. Carter. You are lifting hearts and empowering minds every day! You’re a powerhouse of an example and teacher of authenticity, kindness, calm confidence, intelligence, wisdom- I could keep listing the positives, but I wouldn’t want it to go to your head 😉 Thank you for being a part of my healing journey Dr. Carter 🙏🏼✨I am truly grateful ❣️
Ditto! And let all of Lydia's compliments go to Dr C's head because Team Healthy knows Dr. C's beautiful mind reveals his healing heart! Let it go and let it grow. Thanks for sharing your compliments, Lydia. I second those emotions.
I learn so much from you! Wish I had you in my corner when I started on this very difficult journey with a covert narcissist. Over the years, I too, have taken on the role of "help mate" and unfortunately learning I have been on a perpetual hamster wheel. For the sake of my sanity, I felt it necessary to come up with a some sort of pat mantra when responding to his provoking behaviors and I have concluded with "I am no longer going down that road with you because I simply do not live life based on the same operating system as you." It seems to disconnect the discord and keeps me sane.
You nailed it. That old adage “shame on you” imputed shame on many actions that didnt need to be shamed! Denounce that spirit! Announce your freedom from it!
Hi Dr. Carter, Gus and the Team Healthy Community from California. I so enjoyed your guest Debbie Mirza. Narcissists never care about your pain and they are always the victim and you are the reason they feel like that. You are not going to get him to change and he is not going to talk to you about anything. I can't remember or I forgot are my husband's favorite words. Ask too many questions and they go into anger mode to shut you up. One can not compare depression with being Narcissistic. They are two entirely different things. Please know they love the way they are, they will make plans to get what they want or hurt you if they don't get it and they are superior they think to any therapist. They do not want to change. I would say, speaking from experience to get them out of your life as soon as you realize there are problems. Thank you so much for a great midweek video Dr. Carter.
Good Evening from Cork Ireland. I am going to watch your video now and thank you so much for doing these educational videos, Dr. C, on so many aspects of narcissism. Encyclopedia of narcissism. 🎉
Don't let me be "Debbie Downer" Hysterical! Thank you Dr. C., as you say, "from the core of my being I so appreciate you" and being on this healing journey with you.
Dr. C, when I ask a simple yes or no question from a narcissist, I often get a word salad answer. Is this usual? Does it have to do with disordered thinking or does it have more to do with not wanting to take responsibility for their words?
Mine cannot seem to answer a simple question. I get the same thing. Or he says, "I will think about it and let you know." It can be something totally easy like asking if they want garlic toast with supper. It drives me crazy. I have stopped asking. I just do what I want now.
I am familiar with word salad answers from my family of origin. In their cases, it always boils down to avoiding the question because something about it is uncomfortable to the narcissist. So many reasons. Like fear of being pinned down by a yes/no answer, regaining perceived control over the situation by defying the yes/no stipulation, causing confusion so as to forget what you asked in the first place (avoiding the answer), fear of accountability caused by the yes/no answer, satisfaction from projecting onto you the fact your question was making them squirm so now they are giving word salad to watch you squirm, or many other reasons including that the narcissist just plain doesn't know the answer but will create an entire word salad to avoid letting you know they don't know so that they can remain in a superior position in their own mind. Your hunch is probably the correct answer for your own narcissist.
Hello Dr C I watch you from Germany all the time and learn so much valuable information. My husband of 25 years left me from one day to the next at the beginning of the first lockdown. I'd been very sick for 8 years with chronic fatigue and was especially sick and weak just then. He moved straight in with a woman he claimed he'd just met the evening before. My new (young) therapist said, "sounds like a narcissist." Ever since then I've been feeling like I'm crazy. When I sometimes talk to my ex he seems as though he ACTUALLY understands things, like that he never let himself be vulnerable before and he realized he shouldn't always talk over others or interrupt them. Even though he had 25 years with me in which he could have tried to be considerate and could have made an effort to connect with me or our son. As someone who had a lot of early trauma and was first forced to go to (incompetent) counselors and as a teenager started therapy with an excellent psychologist (I chose to go), and someone who is by no means perfect but tries every day to work on herself, I know how DIFFICULT change is, even when you desperately want it. So is he somehow conning me? Or does this new woman have magic powers to motivate him to actually change?! And was I somehow really the problem all those years? It makes me feel absolutely crazy. Does this sound in any way familiar to you? Bc I definitely know now that he is at least on the narcissistic spectrum and I worked, did all the house and yard work, and raised our son all by myself until I became bedridden (it's improved greatly since he left!), and even then I had no choice but to keep functioning in any way I could bc he didn't help and I had to care for my son and work. Could he REALLY be changing? Or is this just his version of things? Thank you so much for all you do. It's a big comfort to me to watch your videos.
You are nowhere near being the crazy one. Think from a different perspective. Perhaps he is now connected with an enabler who lets him feel as if he is who he wants others to think he is. Keep in mind, you're not making up the fact that he abandoned you when you needed him the most (after 25 years) and chose a woman he had known for one day. He is still gaslighting you.
I felt rather uncomfortable today, since I'm a Principal Scientist in mathematics and computer science, with PhD. I've dabbled in generalisations of the mathematics of quantum mechanics. Just feel the need to point out that it doesn't make me any more - nor less - than anyone else.
Thank you Dr. C! Your recent videos are hard hitting. They may not know all the reasons why, but they very much know how they are and what they are doing and that is why they blame shift, project, lie, gaslight, scapegoat, manipulate and character assassinate others. If they didn't know what they were doing, then there would be no reason for their compensating behaviors. To survive for them requires getting even for what was done to them (vengeance) and draining the life out of others...to boost their egos (self-esteem was replaced by ego)...and that ego boost resulting from your pain makes them feel good / satisfied (sadism). To geniunely and unconditionally love for them...is sadly a lost concept. Their every breathe must be drawn for their own selves and if they do something for you...watch out...there WILL BE a benefit to them...or they will make you feel guilty because they had to do it for you (you're not good enough). No reasoning or logic or levity or anything will get them to admit their errors. It's like sending out a boomerang and waiting for it to come back and hit you in the head. It's like trying to get a rabid dog to not attack, even when someone tries to help...impossible. They will only act in the normal range when they want to give the impression that they are normal range. They are not able to reason with empathy and control and stop their aberrant thoughts and actions. They deal with the reactions they cause in others with criticism, blame, deflection, turning the tables, duplicity and silence...or rage. The cure? Jesus. 2 COR 10:5.
Hi Dr. C! Many years ago when I was still married to the narcissist, he told me he had this great dream about going fishing the night before! I stood there taken aback, as I was having nightmares every night. Have you heard something like this before?
My covert narc husband relates how he has these crazy, funny dreams while I have spent the last 40 years of our marriage having nightmares and waking hallucinations. Thank God, I have finally separated from him and prayer every night has pretty much eliminated those problems!
@Surviving Narcissism It took me so long to get here. Thank you Dr Carter for giving me strength to open up enough to understand withouy turning completely inward on myself in shame. If I hadn't opened myself up I wouldn't have seen the narcissistic dynamic fully. I could never have imagined!
Narcissists don't think in normal terms! Great Title!!😊 Can you imagine what this world would be like if we all just wanted to learn and be open! I always think what if today was my last day? How would i be remembered? I try to tell people that i love them if i do! One was told to stay away from me because I am weird and the other thought I was just kissing up! Neither are true! Now I am a butt of a joke!
My notes (third and fourth questions): 9:00 “I'd be curious to know how a therapist such as yourself deals practically, in actual verbal responses.” “How do you deal practically with an individual you're counseling when they decompose right in your midst? What do you say to somebody who's in your office, flailing and being angry and coming apart?” One of the things I could say is, “I hope you're happy. That's not going to work.” Keep in mind that I'm a therapist and, as best as I can, I'm going to say something that hopefully might cause them to have some sort of a breakthrough. I make the assumption that if that person is in my office that perhaps they're there in the hope that they could actually learn and they could actually make some adjustments. Many of them, if they're truly narcissistic, are not going to. But as long as you're in my office, that's what we're going to do. So I would use comments of a wide variety. For example, if that person is really angry and hurt and frustrated, then I'm going to go inside that person's interior. I'm not saying that you should, but this is what I do as a therapist. I might say something like, “Okay, you’ve said many things here. The first thing that comes to my mind is you seem like you're in pain.” Or I might say something like, “The anger is what we see on the outside but you're hurting and that hurt is coming through in a pretty ugly way. Can we slow down and figure out what's the pain that's going on?” Close to 100% of the time, that person is not going to say, “Good point doc, let's go into that space.” Instead, what they'll say is, “If I’m hurting it's because of that idiot over there. It's because of this person in my past.” They'll go straight into victim shaming. “I'm being really mean but that person over there is the one who's got the problem.” So, typically they don't go into that space with me but I'm at least going to give them the invitation to do so. Another thing that I might say is, “I know that you have some goals in mind when you say you don't like this and you'd prefer that. You're really upset because of this. Let's take a look at your strategy. Let's just ask a very practical question. How well is your strategy working? Are you happy now? Are you satisfied that this is going to get you to a good place?” Of course, it kind of puts them on the spot. Typically, they'll go back and do the victim shaming again. But then my question is, “Let's look at the strategy. Is this working very well?” I want them to see, “You're trying this technique and it's not working very well.” And then I might go a little bit further and I might say to that loud blustery person, “Let's underscore one truth. Harshness is always an option. That's something you can do.” If there's somebody else in the room they're think, “Doc, don't say that.” But I'm letting them know, “You're a free agent. Anything and everything is available to you. Now let's take a look at what the predictable results are going to be when you go into the space that you are in.” Or I might even go a little bit further and ask, “I know that you've mentioned that you have some anger issues. Is this something that you want to hold on to for perpetuity or would you like to change?” So, I'll make these kinds of comments and as a therapist that's how my mind naturally takes me. Every now and then, it all depends on how far down the narcissism spectrum that person is, a person will slow down in their tracks and it's like, okay, this is a therapeutic atmosphere, and this is where we get to look at these kinds of things. The possibilities are pretty low. Most of the time they're so busy defending. They have a pathological defensiveness. That's part of their personality. Even with someone like myself, presenting myself as reasonable and willing to talk with him and willing to dive in with insightful discussions, most of them are at such an immature place in their own personal life that they're not able to go into that. So, the person asked the question, might you do that with somebody in in your personal life? Might you say, “I can tell you're in pain. Tell me more about that because I'm willing to go into that space.”? You can say all those things. That's a reasonable approach but narcissists, by definition, don't use good reasoning. So we have a disparity right up front, but nonetheless at least I'm going to make the possibility there.
14:50 This next person asked, “You have mentioned how narcissists don't like to enter into their pain.” Pause right there; what I mean by that is when you're hurt or when you're angry or when you're disappointed, that reflects the type of pain that you're carrying on the inside. When you're yelling and all when you're defensive, something's going on there. Narcissists don't want to go into that space and say, “I need to listen to what my emotions or what my thoughts are trying to teach me.” They don't do that. So, this person says, “You mentioned how narcissists don't like to enter into their pain. That got me wondering, do vulnerable narcissists have an easier time entering into others' pain than malignant narcissists?” Let's focus on that vulnerable narcissist. The vulnerable narcissists inevitably are covert but not all covert narcissists are vulnerable narcissists, so there's a distinction. The vulnerable narcissist is someone who is prone towards pouting and sulking, and they have a way of draining the energy from the room just by showing up. They tend to be moody. Whereas the covert narcissist may be helping out in the kitchen or they're friendly or they may ask questions, the vulnerable narcissist won't do that. The covert's just keeping it disguised. So that vulnerable narcissist can be a very baffling and draining kind of person in the sense that they just kind of have this Eeyore kind of mindset. “Woe is me.” So the question is, do they have an easier time entering into your pain? The answer is no, they are still true to the definition of narcissism. They're consumed with themselves. They'll let you know life isn't going very well. (MY NOTE: K’s “I’m just a poor, hen-pecked, nice, guy you should take pity on.”) They bring in all this negativity. They don't enter into your space. They just stay stuck in their woe is me kind of mentality. Just because they definitely feel their pain and they let everybody know, “My life isn't going very well. I'm moody. I'm depressed.”, but they're so busy going into that space that they don't think like you. Keep in mind, narcissists don't think normally. You're assuming, if you can access how you're hurting, it doesn't necessarily translate into them showing empathy toward you.
Dr Carter Youre humility and vulnerability is another quality that makes you sooooo endearing. Hope your eyes are rested and better. Your insights are invaluable.
Im i a realist when it comes to timing on this desease its wide range. Time person life that is not ready to open a can of worms as to the more mature that realy want to learn tackle. You know what i mean timing is essential
It's not just a lack of capacity for insight - it's the outright refusal, or FEAR of it You can love a narcissist, but make sure it's not pity (if you're an empath). Pity isn't marital love. These people are not good marriage partners.
To the girlfriend with the new boyfriend: After listening in, I would tell you to leave him now, while you can. Do not wait for 40-50 years. It’s too hard of a life. It’s a rollercoaster life. Just some short and sweet advice from a 68 year old woman with a lot of experience with a spouse like that….
The "am i the narcissist?" part was something i really needed to hear today! I'm still getting the narcissist oughta my head! He tried, after i stupidly, and ignorantly asked him if he could possibly be a covert narcissist? I know better now. I just needed to hear that one again!
Dr. C, I'm having to do more caretaking for my elderly mother who can be mildly narcissistic. She turns every conversation back on to herself. No insight when confronted about little behavioral things. She also pretends to know what other people think/feel. And she has started rewriting history into stories of how other people were struggling and she saved them. She's the hero of every story she tells. I can handle this, but not when it involves me and our historical interactions. She is also struggling with dementia, complicating everything. My ex therapist told me she doesn't get a "pass" no matter how old she is. I want to kindly address issues with her when it involves me, but it rarely improves anything for long. She goes right back to how she was before we talked. I want to help her during this time and I know she won't be around much longer, but the fake stories and rewritten memories are driving me crazy sometimes. I find it is an issue of my integrity and reality if I don't correct her stories that involve so much gaslighting. Any advice?
While I agree with the therapist, at some point you have to ask if your mother cares in the least about your insights. You can only state your convictions or interpretations so many times. If she is truly incapable of incorporating insight, you then have to decide the level of interaction you're willing to participate in. BTW, if it makes you feel better, I also had a parent like this and decided to measure my time with him, knowing that meaningful conversations would get us nowhere.
If she is at the end of her life, perhaps the loving thing to do is to allow her to go out with her own self-comforting thoughts about the great life she believes she had. To do that will make you great, and there is no shame to correct in doing that.
@@SurvivingNarcissism Thank you Dr.C. This is helpful. I'm pretty much her only caretaker, so it's hard to cut back on my level of interaction until she needs to go into some sort of supported living environment, but I suppose I could at times when I need that and I am going to remember that. I see other people her age still have higher levels of insight and empathy, so I know her age shouldn't give her a pass. I'm very sorry you had to deal with a similar or same situation. I appreciate you using your experience and education to help me get some wisdom on this. I truly do.
My strongly narcissistic mother is 89, and my imperfect but otherwise good father passed away a year ago. Long story short, a psychiatrist once told me that in elderly years, the brain is mostly no longer "elastic" and is not going to change as it did in younger years. My mother also reinvents the past where she wants to be remembered as everything she is not. My half-siblings from her earlier marriage are 70 and 71, nothing but vultures and gold diggers for my father's estate. My mother had all his things given away and thrown out three days after his passing, when I was temporarily out of the 11-year "no contact" with her, and she said she "just doesn't know why" she didn't think that I, my father's only biological relative, would want anything of his. She even had my dad's healthy cat euthanized without offering it to me. When I prompted her to respond to her lifetime of abuse of me and everyone else (mainly me) she always repeated, "I believe you, but I don't remember it". She destroyed my father's will which had me in it getting everything my dad worked his life for, then she destroyed her own will which had me in it the same way, and then she had a new will drafted excluding me (except for minimum not to sue and nothing if I do sue) while giving my dad's entire estate to my half-siblings who only ever used him. Still, they do not care for her, she will probably die alone in the house and the neighbor will find her. Narcissists do not change, and in fact they get worse (better at being narcissists) as they age. You need to focus on you, not your mother. This may include continuing to care for her instead of hiring someone, what is right for you? But from my story, you can tell I would not offer you any hope at all that depends on her. I suppose maybe just accept that her words and actions are all about her, and maybe set your mind to ignoring the fact they are just a false fantasy which doesn't require you to absorb it, just observe it from a mental distance. Maintain your own truth and be the man you want to look back on with no regrets, and only you know what that means. Take care.
I love you Les! This video is brilliant! What a relief. I found myself laughing at times in this. It gets to be quite humorous at times when you really understand how ridiculous it is.
Thank you! I really love listening to you. You have taught me sooo much, I have a good therapist as well. And dear dr Les, I am now in a place I did not know existed
Thank you for your wisdom and straightforward answers to difficult questions. I have gotten so much support from your channel. Met a woman seeking help for her elderly covert narcissistic mother and I highly recommended becoming a part of Team Healthy. Thank you and God bless.
This presentation addressed many open issues for me. Of all the advice I have heard you give, your most impactful words for me were "he's insane". Its funny how I didn't take that as an insult but as a statement of fact. Perhaps it was your delivery. Nonetheless, it had a very important effect on me. You are also very good at giving people "choice". Your response to one of my early questions almost took my breath away. I momentarily stopped in my tracks. I think I would like to hear more about how you might address someone who melts down in your office. Because you know their shrieking won't end with your initial response. I liked that you confirmed that "yes" my narcissist husband switching from overt to covert/eeyore to covert could be a thing. (I'm hoping he stays in the covert phase; I can't live with the overt and have told him so). As far as how someone might become a narcissist: I think your explanation (heredity/environment) left out the spiritual dimension of over-riding fear. I see this as playing a major role. (Then there are the narcissists who are seemingly that way because their parents were overindulgent. They are a different breed but are also, seemingly, without empathy or introspection.)
The thing I understand and actually have compassion for is that they are generous and nice in public -rather than be more ‘real’- likely bc they were given a harsh message that they were TOO MUCH as a child. They have to hide the flaws bc they feel no one wants to know. Doesn’t just about everyone hide what they are going through in public of it is a difficult and emotional subject?
I asked my mother to give me a copy of my grandmothers will. I was in the will so I have a legal right to it. She just refuses to provide it to me. I will have to drag her into court to get it now.
My siblings and I have yet to see our father’s will. He passed away 10 years ago. But our narc mom doesn’t hesitate to tell us all “I’m spending your inheritance” such a nut job! Good luck with yours!
If the will was probated you should be able to find a copy of it at the county clerk’s office it was filed in. Hope that helps. I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this!
Hi Dr C Your talk on this subject resonated with me so much and I'm sure with many other people on this channel, it actually brought me some comfort. I chuckled when you expressed Dr C... if you were to say to a covert narcissist that you kind of had a sense that they are one, that they'd look at you as if you had three eyeballs 👀 👀 👀 hehe.... Hope you're having a lovely evening. Waco time, it's 8.04pm currently Friday, where in Auckland, NZ it's 2.04pm Saturday. Thank you Dr C. Monica. New Zealand.
That's right Dr C 🙂.. hope you rest well...and Gus! I suspect he's been napping soundly throughout the day, I wonder at times how old Gus is. On the subject of dinner.. I'm getting hungry.
I am deeply disturbed by the way lack of compassion, selfishness and mean-spiritedness is showing up in the next generation of my family, who were raised by narcissists. This new generation is not quite narcissistic but one is mad, the other is quietly ring-wing, mean-spirited and selfish dressed up in pseudo intellectual langage to sound reasonable and clever on that dreadful medium Facebook, where so many people post their horrible opinions.
My sister is pathologically competitive to the point of absurdity. She obsessively compares everyone and everything to some expectation of imagined perfection that is ridiculous. All it ever does is make her miserable that no one and nothing can ever measure up. No wonder she's so unpleasant to be around all the time. She's always irritable and stressed out and impatient. Sucks to be her. And she's 60 yrs old now, she'll never find the friendship or love she ever hoped to find because no one will ever be good enough for her.
My notes (edited transcript) (first two questions - TH-cam limited the length): 2:17 Today the topic that I have kind of focused in on that is narcissists don't think in normal terms. Sometimes when you, as a person who's trying to be healthy, comes in contact with that very unhealthy narcissistic person, you're thinking, “Certain things make sense to me. It would seem to reason that that person would also see how common sense works and how I can perhaps connect with them in that kind of way.” That can become part of your undoing when you want to superimpose normalcy and insight on individuals who are defined by the absence of all of that. That's when they can pull you down into their hole. So, it's going to be so necessary for you to see how that tendency is there and its ongoing and it's something that they have brought in from their deep history. There are many reasons that they have that, but we can't really assume that narcissist will have the same goal for normalcy as you do. Here's part of the crazy making: they think of themselves as the gold standard. It's like, “If I could just get you to think like me, then problem solved.” They have this false self; they have this alternate reality that they live with. They think of themselves as being better than you and superior. That's part of what we mean when we talk about that word narcissism. It's going to be necessary for you to know that's where they're coming from so that you don't get caught trying to plead your case too much or you don't get caught trying to force them to have some wisdom and insight. That simply isn't going to be there, so just know that's what we're dealing with.
4:26 The first person asked the question, “Dr. C, does the narcissist realize that you might see how fake they are whenever they put on their mask and lovebomb other people, like neighbors for example, right in front of you or do they just kind of forget about that possibility because they're so fixated on getting narcissistic supply from a potentially different source? My dad has always been real nice toward people outside the house but treated my mom and I like dirt.” We have a couple of questions here; let's break it down. Do they see how fake they are when they put on that mask? The answer is nope, they don't see it. As part of their narcissism there is an element of being self-deluded. You've heard me refer to the false self. Early on, before you ever showed up on the scene, they have concocted this notion that says, “There's certain things that I want people to see in me. Of course, it's the good stuff. Then there are multiple things that I am not going to allow people to see. In fact, I'm not even going to admit it to myself.” For example, if they have a bad temper or if they lie a lot or if they're moody or difficult or argumentative it's like, “No, I'm not that way. The only reason that you might think that I am is because you have a problem and you come towards me with all your difficulties. So, you're actually the problem.” Their delusional thinking goes that far. So, when you ask the question, “Do they do they know when they're putting on the mask?”, the answer is no. What they'll say is, “I finally found someone that I can be nice to. I finally found someone who gets me.” They'll think of it in that kind of way. When you say that they're love bombing someone, they probably are, but they'll think, “No, I'm not love bombing. What do you mean by that? I'm just a friendly guy. I'm just nice.” Behind the scenes, with the person that has to live with them, they are like, “You're an idiot. You're no good.” They criticize, they grumble, they moan, they groan. It's sad to say, but narcissists, because of all of this false self and alternate reality, can predictably show a very, very low level of self-awareness. They have very poor insight. Every now and then I’d have a narcissist that would come into my office. I remember so well this one guy that came in and said, “Oh yeah, I'm a narcissist. My wife has pointed that out to me. I'm kind of a sociopath too.” Sure enough, when he started describing how he lived his life, “Bingo, you hit that one.” He had that intellectual awareness it didn't translate into any kind of internal adjustment. So, he's kind of BSing himself. “Even if I know it, it doesn't make any difference because I don't care.” That's that low empathy; the low inclination to know how to blend. “If you're going to hang with me, you're just going to have to get used to it. That's the way I am.” Sometimes they may have a little bit awareness like that but most of them don't even go that far. It's like, “Yeah, there's a problem all right and the problem is you.” Then this person, in asking the question, they were sort of going towards the real answer when they said, “Do they just forget about this and get fixated on getting narcissistic supply from another source?” Bingo. It's like, “I can't necessarily get those of you inside my house to go along with me, but there's somebody over there. They don't know me as well as you do and they don't see all my flaws. I’ve got my eye on that person.” So, they can be charming; they can be friendly; they can be helpful; they can show interest. But it's part of the act. Then if that person that they're giving all this nice attention to becomes an insider, then the narcissist can't keep the mask up forever. It's going to come off.
24 yrs ago this insightful teaching would have saved my life. I am not bitter abt what I did not know. I married a victim personified. Lol his ex was crazy!!!! Now I’m his crazy ex😂😂😂😂 Whoops he forgot he was a medical prof. with a self medicating problem Oh lord. My Holy Ghost or angels removed him from my life. Dr C if only during the engagement time I had this info. I do now Ty & it id spot on. For all mankind
My notes (eighth - tenth questions) 29:32 Which leads me to my next question. This person apparently is in a newer relationship and says, “How can a narcissist even grasp the idea that they're controlling other people when they're so entrenched with the concept that they are the victim? I'm really confused how to make my boyfriend go to therapy, let alone make him aware.” So, you have this young lady who has a new boyfriend and apparently, she's the kind of person that says, “Oh I love talking about personal things. I like talking about growth and what it means to be healthy.” When you're in that that stage of a relationship where you're trying to figure out what your future is going to look like, obviously, to her credit, it's like, “Well, let's just talk about the hard stuff. Let's put ourselves out there and discuss pluses and minuses, pros and cons. Who you are. What you believe.” Then this person is realizing that every time I talk to my boyfriend about those kind of topics, that person just kind of plays the victim. “Well yeah, I've got some hurt in my life and it's because my mother or it's because my girlfriend or it's because these people in my childhood were so mean to me or it's because I gave myself over to a job and they fired me.” It's always someone else's fault. So whenever they're talking about their problems and seemingly being personable with you, they're not. They're simply rehearsing in their mind, “The reason that I have problems is due to all the idiots that are around me.” This individual is saying, “How do I get that person to reflect on themselves? How do I make them go to therapy? Let alone make him become aware? The answer is, “You don't.” As that girlfriend who's maybe looking down the road towards a potential future, what you want to do is express your beliefs and your preferences and your convictions. You want to ask penetrating questions. “Let's talk about when you and I have these anger moments or when we get frustrated or when we are defensive.” Or, “You mention that there was some things with a past relationship or with your family of origin, let's talk about the meaning of that.” You want to go into a thoughtful, insightful kind of space but it's the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You're making the assumption that they can have that insight and part of the definition of narcissism is the inability to have insight. I've come to the conclusion that some individuals just have the capacity for insight. I remember when I was a little kid, if an adult said something to me that had a personal dimension to it I'd be like, “Oh, I like hearing that. I like thinking about it.” For whatever reason, that was in me when I was a child. I loved it. I ate it up. As I got older, when I was a kid, I'd usually read about one book a week and I'd always pick biographies or history books. I don't know if any of you remember the ‘We Were There’ books?I like reading about human experiences. I'd have friends and they wouldn't get anywhere close to that. They'd want to do other things. Well, that was just in me. I'm hardwired that way. Some of you may be hardwired that way. Other individuals, it's like, “No comprende. I don't think like that. It doesn't even cross my mind.” You can't make a person want insight. What you can do is make it available. In this woman's case, it'd be like if you continue to make these options available and that person continues to play the victim role and they won't get out of it and they won't go into your space with you, then you have to start asking the question, “Why am I in this relationship?” If it's this way now, think about it 5 and 10 years down the road. Whatever inequity you're feeling now is going to be more down the road. Is this a relationship that you need to commit to for a long period of time? This is a super big red flag. So know that if you continue to go further and if you have to force feed somebody awareness and insight, it's not going to work. Do not assume that another person has that same desire as you.
34:36 This person says, “Do you think that a malignant narcissist is able to radically accept everything around them and start changing themselves?" The answer is so no, no, no, no. Did I say that clearly enough? No. Can a malignant narcissist have radical acceptance of the world in front of them to the extent that they begin changing themselves? On that scale of narcissism, if we were to go from zero (and nobody, by the way, is down at zero) with no narcissistic tendencies whatsoever and we go all the way up to 100 and that's the far end where the narcissism completely consumes them, the malignant narcissist is in that top 10th percentile and beyond. These are individuals who have so turned off any need to know from you. There's a mean spirit. They have zero need for empathy and when I say zero, I mean below zero; they don't want to know what you feel beyond being able to figure out how to manipulate and exploit you. When you have somebody that's that malignant and they just go that far down there, it's just so deeply entrenched in their character that you can't expect anything other than what they present to you. Maya Angelou says, “When somebody shows you who they are, believe them.” That's exactly what we're talking about. They're just mean, and they're committed to it and they do not care.
36:27 This person asks, “How do you feel about the fact that a narcissist is no more making the choice to be narcissistic than a depressed person is making the choice to be depressed?” First of all, we're talking about apples and oranges. Narcissism is a character disorder; depression is a mood disorder. Big distinction there. Some individuals with depression have various reasons to be that way. They may have circumstances in their life that warrant a depressed feeling, frankly. Or they may have some biochemical issues that inhibit them from being able to access joy, etc. I'm a bit conflicted about do narcissists have choices to be what they are or is this just the way they are? There's one lady whose been doing twin studies and sibling studies and personality inventories and has concluded, with a great deal of research, that between 40 and 60% of your personality is pretty hardwired. So let's just call it half. About half of your personality is simply hardwired into you and then the rest is given to you by environmental influences. Etc. But you see, even then the environment can pick up on that 50% that you're hardwired toward and can respond because of that. For example, if you have an oppositional child, then the parent or teachers or friends are going to respond to that oppositional child in ways that they're not going to respond to a calm child. So, it actually reinforces what's already there. So many of these people who have a strong narcissistic bent have been this way for so long and they tend to have a leaning in that direction anyway and then the environment can play into it. But they're just there. This is important for many of you who have a son or a daughter who may have developed some really strong narcissistic tendencies and you think, “Where did I go wrong?” We're not going to lay all the blame at the feet of mom and dad and the family system. Some people are just so inclined toward that, unfortunately. Having said that, this is where the conflict comes up inside of me. There is still a choice. Most people, even though they can have a strong narcissistic bent, know that telling lies is not a good thing, for example. Or screaming at the top of your lungs is not going to be a good strategy unless you're just trying to totally intimidate someone. They know basic right versus wrong at an intellectual level. But then the question is, have they so shut down the empathy feature, have they so shut down the interconnected level of engagement with others that they just don't care? Some of that can, I think, be changed, but with many of them, it won't. I spoke with a professional not that long ago and frankly I was kind of surprised by the naivety of that person. That person was saying, “You get anybody that's going to go to counseling and get them a good counsel and they can change. They'll change. People that say narcissists can't change, I think they're quitters. They have given up and I don't give up on people.” And I'm thinking, “I don't think that you've been in the same therapy office I've been in. There'd be some individuals that come into my office, and I would work as hard as can. And they'd walk away and I'd know it's going to be the same old, same old. So, they make me look like a failure. Then other folks would come into my office and we'd talk about some similar kind of patterns and they'd walk out of there and they'd make me look like a genius because it's like, “I was waiting for someone to talk with me about this. I'm so pleased.” Sometimes it's just it's not me, it's not my efforts, it's just who they are and what they bring. Sometimes there's choice; sometimes there's not. There are times when the bottom line is I have to go with what's in front of me.
I was gonna Right!!! Right?? But then I remembered all the organizations I had been a part of such as all the 12 step programs. Selfishness and the Big “ I “ are still pretty popular and these people have tons of collateral damage that seems to flow like water under a bridge…,. 😢
I’ve known my wife has been an alcoholic and sex addict for 27 years now. Somehow she convinced me that she didn’t need SA and AA for the past 10 years. She has gone back into SA I know for sure for the past couple of years. The element I was missing is that she is a covert narcissist. That has been the missing link for me in understanding the tornado/hurricane that is her. How do I deal with all of this? She has moved out and I can’t imagine remaining married but at the same time I can’t imagine divorcing.
Before I even get into questions.. I have never been to Texas but I have been looking for places in the Dallas area and in the Austin area.. I have noticed that there are snobby people.. I have noticed snobby people everywhere that I have been.. That is part of life.. I am not sure if they are Narcissists or not but that is a HUGE part of our society.. I should be able to apply the same principles as dealing with Narcissists with dealing with people who think they are better than me.. When there are whole cultures or religions that are shame based and that think they are better than others.. I could see how there could be issues...
In Thanksgiving: ( Southeastern Texas: USA 🇺🇸) : btw: Doctor Les Carter, Ph.D.: ( presenter- awareness- mental health- information ℹ️ fabulous) : btw: thank you 😊: again: thank you 😊
Dr. C, in one answer you mention a sociopath who knew he was a narcissist, but didn't care. Is it more common for a malignant narcissist to be aware that they are a narcissist than it is for the 'average' (non-malignant) narcissist?
I think I am a woe-is-me person because I don’t like to lie about my health or situation which always has a difficult piece to it especially as I get older.
My notes (fifth - seventh questions): 18:13 This person asked, “What is this shame that narcissists have? Where does it come from?” Narcissism has a very strong shame component and many of them, particularly the overts, but the coverts too, can come across as though, “I got life by the tail. I'm doing fine. (MY NOTE: OK, I have to quote Han Solo: “We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you.”) Everything's great. Yeah, I've got some morons in my life, but you know my way of dealing with all of that is just to dismiss them.” They don't necessarily reveal that they're feeling shame but the way you know that they're really struggling with shame is you'll notice that the narcissist will not and when I say WILL NOT, capital all across the board, they will not let you know what their failings are, or if they do let you know what their failings are it's so they can complain about the person who made them miserable. They can't go into a space that says, “Yes, I'm a mistake maker. Sometimes I blunder.” Because that would bring shame upon them. Narcissists, inevitably, like you and me, are exposed to a judgment system when growing up. When you're very early very young in your life, five, six, seven, eight years old, you realize that whatever you think, say, and do, somebody's going to stick a grade on it and they're going to tell you if it's good or excellent or wonderful or terrible. That budding little narcissist may not have had permission to say, “Let's talk about this.” And they may not have had anybody say, “Let's walk through this in a way where we can find some sort of relief.” That little child who later on become a narcissist begins realizing, “So when you see me do this instead of this, you're going to grade me. You're going to judge me.” So, they figure out how to be competitive and have an edge. “Okay, what that means is I'm not going to let you see what's wrong with me.” They get to the point where they dread anyone finding out who they are and how they struggle. They can't admit their own failings or inadequacies. They’re in total coverup mode. “I know that if you know a, b and c about me, you're going to be down on my case.” “I hate that part of me; therefore, I'm not going to acknowledge it. Period. End of discussion.” Healthy individuals can say, “If you get to know me, you're going to see that I have flaws and I'm willing to work on that. I'm willing to acknowledge it. I'm willing to say here's who I am. But at the same time, I don't feel like I have to carry shame because of it. For the rest of my life, I'll have many somethings that I can work on so that I can make improvements.” Healthy people do that. Narcissists are not normal enough, they're not healthy enough, to be able to go into that space.
22:03 This person says, “Dr. C, can a narcissist be both grandiose and covert at the same time? My “friend” (I'm the only one she had left, although I don't really consider her a friend) is definitely grandiose but she employs some very sneaky strategies. Are they always like that? Very, very commonly they'll employ both. When you have issues with anger, it can come out in many different ways. Some people will suppress it; some people will be openly aggressive and brash and loud and harsh; some people will be passive aggressive and then some people will hold on to grudges and contempt. There are all sorts of options. No one person is going to just pick one of those dysfunctional ways. Typically, when people are angry, they can be all over the board with all of that. Now let's take that same style of thinking and apply it to narcissism. Are narcissists who can be very overt, are they just overt and that's it? No, they can also be covert; they can also do blame shifting; they can also have the tendency to hide and not let you know what's going on in their life; they can be all over the board because it's just there's so many options that they have. It's like, “I'll take all of them.” If you have an overt narcissist, sometimes they can be very covert. If you have a covert narcissist, they can be more overt from time to time, but they tend not to go in that dimension as much because it's like, “I've watched those people, and it tends to get them in trouble.” So covert narcissists are more sneaky and they're more sly and deliberate. But the bottom line is there are many ways that it can play out and it's going to show up typically in a wide array of behaviors.
24:41 This person says, “Why are we always the ones who have to handle these narcissistic people with kid gloves?” Here you are you're saying, “Okay Dr. C, you've got this whole channel and all these videos and articles and courses that are dedicated to the survivors of narcissistic abuse. What about them? Why is it that we're the ones that have to put in all of the work?” This person goes on to say, “I listen to your videos all the time and you give helpful advice, but I noticed how it's us who have the real responsibility of having to try to heal these broken relationships.” The question is, “What's going on there?” Now, there's a compliment in here toward you when you say, “If anything's going to happen, if healing is going to happen, I'm going to have to take the initiative.” The compliment is you have the capacity, you have the skill set. The analogy that I try to use is, let's say that you have a person that has a PHD in mathematics. Let's take it even further - they're able to go into quantum physics and they can explain string theory and they know all sorts of things about math. Then that person comes across another individual who is eight years old and in the third grade and they've just figured out addition and subtraction. Now they're trying to figure out a little bit of the multiplication table and that person with the PHD in mathematics is thinking, “I need to get this kid that's in the third grade to think like me.” It's not going to happen, is it? By definition, you have one person that's not very well-developed and you have another person that's extremely well-developed and there's a huge disparity there. So that person with the PHD in mathematics is going to say, “If I'm going to talk math to this person, I'm going to have to go down on the third grade level and explain things to them in that kind of way.” You're on TH-cam watching good old Les Carter and you're trying to figure out what's making these people the way they are. Give me a book or let me read some articles or I'll take a course. I really want to learn. Then you look over to that narcissistic person and say, “Please join me.” By definition it's like, “I'm not going to join you. Why would I join you? You're just a chum.” Keeping in mind that they think of themselves as falsely superior. They have no particular need to empathize with you or to tune into to what you say. They're defined by their own selfishness and their need to control. If they say, “Yeah, I need some help.”, that means they let go of their control, they lose their power. So, you're asking that narcissist to come join you in the psychological realm saying, “That does sound curious to me. I really want to learn. I want to grow.” The reason they don't is because these are people who have arrested development. You've heard the term fixation. That was a Freudian term. You may be all the way up in the in your adult forms of development, where you're going deep into insight and wisdom and empathy, and you really can see through certain veneers. And that narcissist, who may be 46 years old, is like, “Well actually, I'm still thinking like that third grader and you're wanting me to come up to your level. Nah, it's not going to work.” So, you wind up, if you're going to deal with them, you have to talk with them in terms that they can understand. I go back to my opening comments, one of the biggest mistakes that you can make is you can assume that these are people that that can have normalcy, just like you're trying to seek normalcy. You have to remind yourself that narcissism is not a healthy pattern; it's a pattern of dysfunction. It's a character disorder. Many individuals tend to say so stuck in it to their dying day. They just don't figure it out. Every now and then some do; most don't. Sometimes they have a crisis or sometimes a little maturity begins to kick in. It depends on how deep they are in the spectrum. Remind yourself why it’s you - the answer is a high compliment to you - because you're a person that likes to think and they're not. “Well, why can't they do it?” That's almost an empty question. They don't.
Of course, dummy me confided in her when I was talking to her about how we're having problems and that, I really Empire anded up divorcing him and at the end of the back, and forth on the messaging, I told her to stop messaging him. And he said, what are you gonna do, come out here and beat my, you know what and I said, you don't even care about me that you don't care if I'm out on the street, you're trying to wreck my marriage, and you know what she said to that, she said, oh? Well I thought you were going to divorce him anyway That's how deluded these people are when they're in their rage that they will not lose at , they will destroy you
Someone with depression will tend to treat the depression as a problem and it's a problem they have and their choice is to work on that problem. A narcissist doesn't treat how they act as being a problem and they treat everyone else as having the problem, they don't choose to work on themselves. It's not a fact that a narcisssist doesn't choose how they are any more than a depressed person, because a depressed person will choose to work on themselves. I more blunt part of myself wants to say 'neither is a choice' is just enabler garbage. There are choices after either thing has occurred. Narcissists choose to commit to narcissism. They like it.
My notes (eleventh - end) (TH-cam limited the length) I should probably not do such detailed notes on Midweek... 41:06 This person says, “Are covert narcissists consciously aware that they're covert narcissists? Are the schemes that you mentioned conscious or premeditated?” The general rule is if you were to say, “I kind of get the sense that you're a covert narcissist.” Most of them, 99%, would look at you like you have three eyeballs. “No, if there's a narcissist in the room, it's you.” I can't tell you how many times people will ask me, “Am I the narcissist here because that person's been telling me that?” If you're asking that question, that's a good sign because that implies that you care and you're thinking and if it's true you want to probe and you want to figure out how to deal with it. Covert narcissists are so dedicated to phoniness, fake, cover up, sneaking behaviors that the first person that they've faked out is not you, it's themselves. In order for them to be good at being a covert narcissist, they have to convince themselves, “I really am better than everybody else. If you suggest otherwise, clearly you don't know what you're talking about.” That's what you're dealing with.
42:33 So we go back to our theme that we have today and that is that narcissists don't think in normal terms. You so want them to do so and, again kudos to you when you say, “I really want to be that kind of person that seeks wisdom. I want to be the kind of person that if you find something that's inappropriate, tell me about it. I I'll listen to you carefully.” We so need more people like that. I'm going to give you one last thought. It's my conviction that maybe 20% of the population is intuitive enough to say, “I really want to change.” Maybe 23% or maybe 17%. A lot of folks may not be pathological, but they just don't think uh I mean think about it. When you go to the grocery store and you see a lot of folks, I do this sometimes, does that person think about the meaning of life? How many of these folks, that never even crosses their mind? There are a lot of people out there that don't really think very deeply. Then you have some and I don't know what the percentage is, but it's pretty far down there, who are just like, “If I have pathology, I don't care. It's not my fault; you did it.” They're not going to adjust. There can be some folks that'll say, “Yeah, I have I have anger issues. I have depression. I know that I'm mean sometimes.” And then they'll say, “But I don't think I can do anything about it. They sabotage themselves before they even get off the ground.” Any way you look at it, you want to recognize that's a very real phenomenon.
How long can you stay? I see that as a personal choice dependent on your worldview. I have chosen to stay-- at first out of concern for the children. I have to admit that before finding this channel I was having quite a bit of trouble holding it (me) together. The unpredictable treats of violence were too much for me and I didn't have a name for what was going on. Things have settled down now a great deal as he has switched to an almost exclusively covert form. (As a matter of shear self-preservation, I had let it be known that I would certainly leave him if the overt outbursts continued.) I now try to look at his condition much the same as I would any other disability where the vows "in sickness and in health" still apply. Perhaps, that could be your approach also.
And then they come to the strangest conclusions! And think they are the correct ones! Self deluded indeed. Interestingly, one I knew long ago went to a far-off third world region, complete with warlords. Who continued his outrageous behavior. This turned out to be fatal. Couldn't have happened to a more appropriate person. Although it did cut off his emotional growth. And head.
I’m sorry, but I did laugh at the end of your story…hey, I feel better, so thanks for that 😂 Even if we don’t witness it, the narc will get all they have coming to them…in the end
Narcissism is the only illness where they stay the same & the victim gets the help.
That is sadly so very true, Cheryl.
Correct. Narcissistic spectrum personality (or character) disorders are such that the person thinks they are just fine while everyone else needs improvement, but everyone else suffers. This is in contrast to something like mental illness, where the actual person suffers and wants to get better.
@@danielkaiser8971 Which does point to this being a personality style.. the choice of evil over good.
And everyone believes that the victim is the crazy one
The victim only suffers until they figure out the entire "relationship" is a figment of their imagination. The post-realization grief is also a form of suffering, but the type that can leave a person much stronger, wiser, and more compassionate for self and others dealing with similar abuse. Exquisitely painful, but worthwhile healing.
Dont walk, RUN
You are a lighthouse for those of us adrift in the troubled waters of this cruel behavior.
So accurately/beautiful put. Thank you...
Well put
Using logic to appeal to someone committed to illogical thinking and behavior is pointless.
Spot on, Aaron.
Ain't that the truth! 😣
Agree 💯
I got gaslighted when I explained to them logically 😮
And it will make you crazy trying to reason with them.
Nothing is normal about a narcissist but they think they are above all
I have shared a few vulnerabilities with the narc in my life,as normal humans do: we share. This person always remembers and uses them for shaming me! It's so infuriating. Never admit ANY weakness to these people.
Exactly! When we think we are sharing to connect; they use it to build an secret arsenal.
I share personal info at all - no thoughts, opinions, ideas, experiences, memories, joys, challenges . . .nothing about myself or anyone else. It's extremely enlightening how determined the narcissistic people in my life are to gossip judge, and second-guess others. They lose interest in me very quickly when I offer nothing but "oh" or "uh-huh."
I saw mommy dearest put on a mask and sweetly tell her friend on the phone what a great job I was doing to assist her when she was diagnosed with leukemia and getting ready to die, right in front of me. She hung up and immediately turned on me like a rabid dog. How could she not see that? Mind boggling.
Wow. So sorry...
She did see that. They calculate these things. I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Please protect yourself by following Dr. Carter's advice. You don't deserve to be treated badly.
I wish you could have recorded that interaction . Her friend probably thinks she's a sweet person.
@@therealJamieJoy Thanks. In retrospect I saw it coming, but just did not want to believe it. I know you know what I mean. Comforting in itself. Thank you for your reply.
@@therealJamieJoy Someone gave people a toolbox to deal with such things. Unfortunate it had to come to that. Good news is I am going north when they are headed south. Never want to see them again. My conscience is clean.
I do truly Love you and am grateful to you Dr. C!!! Everything you describe is my reality and total experience with the worst of these entities. It's life altering if not totally disabling having been exposed to the damage they do with impunity. If not for you, I realize how insane I might have been by now trying to describe them and their deep seated psychological miswire.
I'm honored to be on your path with you.
RAW. Unsweetened TRUTH. God Bless you Always. ❤️💐🙏
In Thanksgiving: { USA 🇺🇸} : btw: Media Technical Support People and Staff at Doctor Les Carter, Ph.D.: ( Presentation- Awareness- mental health) : thank you 😊
In Thanksgiving: { USA 🇺🇸} : btw: The Presentation: ( awareness- mental health- information ℹ️ fabulous} is wonderful: again: wonderful
@SurvivingNarcissism
Sir , you have been a guide during my ongoing custody battle. It's almost over. Understanding has made it possible for me to be patient and make the best choices for my little boy. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Thank you, Dr Carter, for your ongoing warmhearted steadiness of clarity & support!
💛🕊 Peace to Team Healthy🕊 💛
You can lead a narcissist to insight but you CANNOT make him partake.!😮
Amen!
Why doesn’t the lawyers, judges, psychiatrist and report writers pick up on it instead of victimising the victims and putting innocent children back in the unsafe situation???
My understanding is that they can be trained to understand narcissism, but generally speaking the term by itself is too vague to be useful in the legal system. What they prefer is a description of actual actions and events that occurred, preferably recorded. In other words, real and actual evidence; a mere label of "narcissism" is not helpful. Also not helpful is saying "I was abused" without specifying where, how, under what circumstances and how often. This includes positive evidence, such as documented visits with social workers to discuss how to be an even better parent to the child, because saying "I'm a good parent" means nothing by itself in terms of evidence. The problem is that abuse is usually done in private and not recorded, so it's not given as much weight as recorded abuse. What matters is credible evidence.
@@danielkaiser8971 thank you.
Even if you’re logical with the narcissist with proof they’re still so delusional.
My therapist asked me a few questions yesterday.
How old would you say or do you think you’re speaking to when your husband is messaging you these things?
I laughed and said I’m not trying to be mean but I feel like I talk to a toddler.
She said, yes, you are. Somewhere between the age range of 3-5.. he may understand what you’re saying but in his mind his thinking is of a toddler.
It’s so sad and I truly wished he would get help. He turns to drugs and alcohol to cope and is destroying his life at record speed
You made me laugh out loud. . . "yeh, if I'm hurting it's because of that idiot over there" OMG, so true, I think I've actually heard those exact words. . . .
My heart is breaking...parental alienation 3 out of 4 children
It just I was discarded by narcissist and watching you it’s so liberating
As someone else on Team Healthy said, when you are discarded, count it as a blessing and an open door through which you can walk and close the boundary behind you.
TEAM HEALTHY--- life is spiritual growth. Some days that requires being on the edge of insanity. NORMAL is not mental health.
Hey that is great news!
@@victoryamartin9773 It is great news! The problem arises when we better understand "normal". To me--- normal is "vanilla" (medioctity).
As a high-end craftsman, earlier in my career "white kitchens" were very popular. I began noticing habits with the customers who preferred all-white kitchens. I labeled them "vanilla people". Once I learned to spot them upfront, it made my service easier at the end. That is when a narcissist will be more apparent--- they can be very charming in the beginning, yet very entitled and devaluing later in the project. Habitual people are the "vanilla people".
The young lady with the boyfriend & going to therapy???? Run for your life
Married 24 yr went to therapy with narc spouse. They LOVE THERAY
It’s a story all about them. Great supply. Remember your there with a third grader . I’m 11 mo out divorce signed this story is very clear to me now
Married 40 and am giving the same advice.
They learn how to hide it better with therapy.
Hi Dr C. I have a narcissist 'friend' who seems genuinely baffled as to why people speak negatively of him behind his back and avoid spending time with him. He also seems confused as to why no-one will speak with him directly about this. Is he really that blind regarding his behaviour towards others?
Thanks for all your contributions Dr C 🙏
They believe everyone thinks like them so they think the behavior is normal
We appreciate you, sweet Dr. carter! I also loved that interview you did with the author on “The covert passive aggressive narcissist.” Thank you so much for making all this content available, Blessings and much love!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I loved that interview too and looking forward to the next one!
Nobody is perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. Why is it so hard for the narcissist to admit that. Immaturity and lack of a larger world perspective is my hypothesis.
I was married 25 years and I honestly cannot recall ever hearing my spouse say simply, "I'm sorry." I do have many memories of asking her to say that followed by, "Well I think we both played a role in that" or "Did you ever think that maybe you have done similar things to me before?" or "What about what you said to me last month?"
Same! No accountability ever!
@@ncbeachbumintx Their minds inside must look like convoluted spider webs. Confusion by rationalization is so ugly to watch or listen to. Thanks for your reply.
If it helps anyone to the woman asking how they can help the narcissistic person in their life situation? The Watts family was annihilated by the father. His wife before she passed purchased many books for her spouse to try to help him which were later found in the trash. Smh. That really woke me up to the fact that it’s not my job to impose myself on someone else even if they are sick.I believe his wife saved many lives. Love.
Hi Dr C , I cannot thank you enough!
Athens, Greece.
So pleased!
Ohhhhhhh Dr. Carter!!!! You just gave the best comic relief for the "debbie downer" vulnerable narcissist!!!! I will forever remember "I got diarrhea there once" whenever dealing with narcissists of ANY type!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Thank you so much!!❤😂
That line got several comments!!
Thank you for explaining the lack of reasoning, perhaps that is why much of their behavior is so surprising.
Exactly. It defies logic. Repeatedly.
In my family, when I said I had seen a psychiatrist to get help (I was anxious and depressed) it was used against me. The entire extended family regarded me as mentally disturbed. Every thing I said from then on was disregarded. Even when it came to light I had been fostered out as a child. They just blamed me, and my foster parents.
I was laughing when you said no no no after someone asked if malignant narcissist could understand 😂😂😂😂😂
The Debbie Downer comment made me laugh out loud, Dr. C! Good one! Thank you very much, I needed a good laugh!
That answer came from my inner 13 year old boy!
@@SurvivingNarcissism❤❤
I have a relative who can never mind her own business. She must see herself as the one who has the power to influence outcomes, and be the director in other people's lives. Then when it blows up in her face her answer is: "The road to hell is paved with the best intentions." She really believes everyone will do better if they subjugate themselves to her! And, she'll barrel ahead without knowing the facts, or even CONSIDERING that she doesn't know enough about a situation. Does this sound like a young person who hasn't learned how to behave? She's 52 !!!
Great insight!
3 misc notes:
1.) Fav Dr. C expression: "no offense to Gus"
2.) Fav Dr. C word: 'pitiable'
3.) Gus is officially the Team Healthy mascot!! ❤
Yes, yes, and yes.
@@SurvivingNarcissism 😄
💯 % Love this!
@@Dove-gx5gz Thank you!
😅
Dr. Carter, I get that same twitch in my eye once in a while, as well. Sometimes its when I’m in need of sleep, or stressed, or a combo of factors, or I don’t know 🤷🏼♀️
I imagine it’s probably a lot more noticeable to us the twitcher 😉 than those who may be around us. Can’t wait to watch your interview with Debbie. Thank you so much for all you share in your videos, both the incredible content and you yourself Dr. Carter. You are lifting hearts and empowering minds every day! You’re a powerhouse of an example and teacher of authenticity, kindness, calm confidence, intelligence, wisdom- I could keep listing the positives, but I wouldn’t want it to go to your head 😉
Thank you for being a part of my healing journey Dr. Carter 🙏🏼✨I am truly grateful ❣️
Thanks, Lydia.
Ditto! And let all of Lydia's compliments go to Dr C's head because Team Healthy knows Dr. C's beautiful mind reveals his healing heart! Let it go and let it grow. Thanks for sharing your compliments, Lydia. I second those emotions.
Now i get it completely, so many of them weren't thinking normally... then i realised how narcissistic they were
Glad it resonated!!
I learn so much from you! Wish I had you in my corner when I started on this very difficult journey with a covert narcissist. Over the years, I too, have taken on the role of "help mate" and unfortunately learning I have been on a perpetual hamster wheel. For the sake of my sanity, I felt it necessary to come up with a some sort of pat mantra when responding to his provoking behaviors and I have concluded with "I am no longer going down that road with you because I simply do not live life based on the same operating system as you." It seems to disconnect the discord and keeps me sane.
These Q&A sessions are invaluable. Learning weekly. 🙏🏽
You nailed it.
That old adage “shame on you” imputed shame on many actions that didnt need to be shamed! Denounce that spirit! Announce your freedom from it!
I had and have exactly the same behaviour,honey drips from my husbands mouth for anyone,but his family !
Hi Dr. Carter, Gus and the Team Healthy Community from California. I so enjoyed your guest Debbie Mirza. Narcissists never care about your pain and they are always the victim and you are the reason they feel like that. You are not going to get him to change and he is not going to talk to you about anything. I can't remember or I forgot are my husband's favorite words. Ask too many questions and they go into anger mode to shut you up. One can not compare depression with being Narcissistic. They are two entirely different things. Please know they love the way they are, they will make plans to get what they want or hurt you if they don't get it and they are superior they think to any therapist. They do not want to change. I would say, speaking from experience to get them out of your life as soon as you realize there are problems. Thank you so much for a great midweek video Dr. Carter.
Thanks, Alice!
Good Evening from Cork Ireland. I am going to watch your video now and thank you so much for doing these educational videos, Dr. C, on so many aspects of narcissism. Encyclopedia of narcissism. 🎉
You are very welcome
Don't let me be "Debbie Downer" Hysterical!
Thank you Dr. C., as you say, "from the core of my being I so appreciate you" and being on this healing journey with you.
Thanks Nancy!
Dr. C, when I ask a simple yes or no question from a narcissist, I often get a word salad answer. Is this usual? Does it have to do with disordered thinking or does it have more to do with not wanting to take responsibility for their words?
Mine cannot seem to answer a simple question. I get the same thing. Or he says, "I will think about it and let you know." It can be something totally easy like asking if they want garlic toast with supper. It drives me crazy. I have stopped asking. I just do what I want now.
I am familiar with word salad answers from my family of origin. In their cases, it always boils down to avoiding the question because something about it is uncomfortable to the narcissist. So many reasons. Like fear of being pinned down by a yes/no answer, regaining perceived control over the situation by defying the yes/no stipulation, causing confusion so as to forget what you asked in the first place (avoiding the answer), fear of accountability caused by the yes/no answer, satisfaction from projecting onto you the fact your question was making them squirm so now they are giving word salad to watch you squirm, or many other reasons including that the narcissist just plain doesn't know the answer but will create an entire word salad to avoid letting you know they don't know so that they can remain in a superior position in their own mind. Your hunch is probably the correct answer for your own narcissist.
Hello Dr C
I watch you from Germany all the time and learn so much valuable information. My husband of 25 years left me from one day to the next at the beginning of the first lockdown. I'd been very sick for 8 years with chronic fatigue and was especially sick and weak just then. He moved straight in with a woman he claimed he'd just met the evening before. My new (young) therapist said, "sounds like a narcissist." Ever since then I've been feeling like I'm crazy.
When I sometimes talk to my ex he seems as though he ACTUALLY understands things, like that he never let himself be vulnerable before and he realized he shouldn't always talk over others or interrupt them. Even though he had 25 years with me in which he could have tried to be considerate and could have made an effort to connect with me or our son. As someone who had a lot of early trauma and was first forced to go to (incompetent) counselors and as a teenager started therapy with an excellent psychologist (I chose to go), and someone who is by no means perfect but tries every day to work on herself, I know how DIFFICULT change is, even when you desperately want it. So is he somehow conning me? Or does this new woman have magic powers to motivate him to actually change?! And was I somehow really the problem all those years? It makes me feel absolutely crazy. Does this sound in any way familiar to you? Bc I definitely know now that he is at least on the narcissistic spectrum and I worked, did all the house and yard work, and raised our son all by myself until I became bedridden (it's improved greatly since he left!), and even then I had no choice but to keep functioning in any way I could bc he didn't help and I had to care for my son and work.
Could he REALLY be changing? Or is this just his version of things?
Thank you so much for all you do. It's a big comfort to me to watch your videos.
You are nowhere near being the crazy one. Think from a different perspective. Perhaps he is now connected with an enabler who lets him feel as if he is who he wants others to think he is. Keep in mind, you're not making up the fact that he abandoned you when you needed him the most (after 25 years) and chose a woman he had known for one day. He is still gaslighting you.
DRC thank you Dr. C. . it's a great reminder. The narcissists shame is in that river in Egypt.
Yep, "DeNile". It's sad & such a lost opportunity for them to have growth & peace.
I have written three words on a chalk board in my kitchen … Dignity , respect , civility .
Then what about a coffee mug with DRC 😉
I felt rather uncomfortable today, since I'm a Principal Scientist in mathematics and computer science, with PhD. I've dabbled in generalisations of the mathematics of quantum mechanics. Just feel the need to point out that it doesn't make me any more - nor less - than anyone else.
Thank you Dr. C! Your recent videos are hard hitting. They may not know all the reasons why, but they very much know how they are and what they are doing and that is why they blame shift, project, lie, gaslight, scapegoat, manipulate and character assassinate others. If they didn't know what they were doing, then there would be no reason for their compensating behaviors. To survive for them requires getting even for what was done to them (vengeance) and draining the life out of others...to boost their egos (self-esteem was replaced by ego)...and that ego boost resulting from your pain makes them feel good / satisfied (sadism). To geniunely and unconditionally love for them...is sadly a lost concept. Their every breathe must be drawn for their own selves and if they do something for you...watch out...there WILL BE a benefit to them...or they will make you feel guilty because they had to do it for you (you're not good enough). No reasoning or logic or levity or anything will get them to admit their errors. It's like sending out a boomerang and waiting for it to come back and hit you in the head. It's like trying to get a rabid dog to not attack, even when someone tries to help...impossible. They will only act in the normal range when they want to give the impression that they are normal range. They are not able to reason with empathy and control and stop their aberrant thoughts and actions. They deal with the reactions they cause in others with criticism, blame, deflection, turning the tables, duplicity and silence...or rage. The cure? Jesus. 2 COR 10:5.
Hi Dr. C! Many years ago when I was still married to the narcissist, he told me he had this great dream about going fishing the night before! I stood there taken aback, as I was having nightmares every night. Have you heard something like this before?
My covert narc husband relates how he has these crazy, funny dreams while I have spent the last 40 years of our marriage having nightmares and waking hallucinations. Thank God, I have finally separated from him and prayer every night has pretty much eliminated those problems!
@@grammyspa-jammies1737 Thank God! May God restore us and more.
@Surviving Narcissism It took me so long to get here. Thank you Dr Carter for giving me strength to open up enough to understand withouy turning completely inward on myself in shame. If I hadn't opened myself up I wouldn't have seen the narcissistic dynamic fully. I could never have imagined!
Narcissists don't think in normal terms! Great Title!!😊 Can you imagine what this world would be like if we all just wanted to learn and be open! I always think what if today was my last day? How would i be remembered? I try to tell people that i love them if i do! One was told to stay away from me because I am weird and the other thought I was just kissing up! Neither are true! Now I am a butt of a joke!
Keep being true to yourself ,it's all that matters. We have no control over other peoples reactions.
@@narayanstar7787 Thank you and True we have no control over other people's reactions!
Being Human is a good and healthy thing.
Who,s that good looking guy. Thank you, Best to you, Dave Your a good man. God 🙏 loves you!
Good day to you as well Dr. Thank you.
Same to you!
My notes (third and fourth questions):
9:00 “I'd be curious to know how a therapist such as yourself deals practically, in actual verbal responses.” “How do you deal practically with an individual you're counseling when they decompose right in your midst? What do you say to somebody who's in your office, flailing and being angry and coming apart?” One of the things I could say is, “I hope you're happy. That's not going to work.” Keep in mind that I'm a therapist and, as best as I can, I'm going to say something that hopefully might cause them to have some sort of a breakthrough. I make the assumption that if that person is in my office that perhaps they're there in the hope that they could actually learn and they could actually make some adjustments. Many of them, if they're truly narcissistic, are not going to. But as long as you're in my office, that's what we're going to do. So I would use comments of a wide variety. For example, if that person is really angry and hurt and frustrated, then I'm going to go inside that person's interior. I'm not saying that you should, but this is what I do as a therapist. I might say something like, “Okay, you’ve said many things here. The first thing that comes to my mind is you seem like you're in pain.” Or I might say something like, “The anger is what we see on the outside but you're hurting and that hurt is coming through in a pretty ugly way. Can we slow down and figure out what's the pain that's going on?” Close to 100% of the time, that person is not going to say, “Good point doc, let's go into that space.” Instead, what they'll say is, “If I’m hurting it's because of that idiot over there. It's because of this person in my past.” They'll go straight into victim shaming. “I'm being really mean but that person over there is the one who's got the problem.” So, typically they don't go into that space with me but I'm at least going to give them the invitation to do so. Another thing that I might say is, “I know that you have some goals in mind when you say you don't like this and you'd prefer that. You're really upset because of this. Let's take a look at your strategy. Let's just ask a very practical question. How well is your strategy working? Are you happy now? Are you satisfied that this is going to get you to a good place?” Of course, it kind of puts them on the spot. Typically, they'll go back and do the victim shaming again. But then my question is, “Let's look at the strategy. Is this working very well?” I want them to see, “You're trying this technique and it's not working very well.” And then I might go a little bit further and I might say to that loud blustery person, “Let's underscore one truth. Harshness is always an option. That's something you can do.” If there's somebody else in the room they're think, “Doc, don't say that.” But I'm letting them know, “You're a free agent. Anything and everything is available to you. Now let's take a look at what the predictable results are going to be when you go into the space that you are in.” Or I might even go a little bit further and ask, “I know that you've mentioned that you have some anger issues. Is this something that you want to hold on to for perpetuity or would you like to change?” So, I'll make these kinds of comments and as a therapist that's how my mind naturally takes me. Every now and then, it all depends on how far down the narcissism spectrum that person is, a person will slow down in their tracks and it's like, okay, this is a therapeutic atmosphere, and this is where we get to look at these kinds of things. The possibilities are pretty low. Most of the time they're so busy defending. They have a pathological defensiveness. That's part of their personality. Even with someone like myself, presenting myself as reasonable and willing to talk with him and willing to dive in with insightful discussions, most of them are at such an immature place in their own personal life that they're not able to go into that. So, the person asked the question, might you do that with somebody in in your personal life? Might you say, “I can tell you're in pain. Tell me more about that because I'm willing to go into that space.”? You can say all those things. That's a reasonable approach but narcissists, by definition, don't use good reasoning. So we have a disparity right up front, but nonetheless at least I'm going to make the possibility there.
14:50 This next person asked, “You have mentioned how narcissists don't like to enter into their pain.” Pause right there; what I mean by that is when you're hurt or when you're angry or when you're disappointed, that reflects the type of pain that you're carrying on the inside. When you're yelling and all when you're defensive, something's going on there. Narcissists don't want to go into that space and say, “I need to listen to what my emotions or what my thoughts are trying to teach me.” They don't do that. So, this person says, “You mentioned how narcissists don't like to enter into their pain. That got me wondering, do vulnerable narcissists have an easier time entering into others' pain than malignant narcissists?” Let's focus on that vulnerable narcissist. The vulnerable narcissists inevitably are covert but not all covert narcissists are vulnerable narcissists, so there's a distinction. The vulnerable narcissist is someone who is prone towards pouting and sulking, and they have a way of draining the energy from the room just by showing up. They tend to be moody. Whereas the covert narcissist may be helping out in the kitchen or they're friendly or they may ask questions, the vulnerable narcissist won't do that. The covert's just keeping it disguised. So that vulnerable narcissist can be a very baffling and draining kind of person in the sense that they just kind of have this Eeyore kind of mindset. “Woe is me.” So the question is, do they have an easier time entering into your pain? The answer is no, they are still true to the definition of narcissism. They're consumed with themselves. They'll let you know life isn't going very well. (MY NOTE: K’s “I’m just a poor, hen-pecked, nice, guy you should take pity on.”) They bring in all this negativity. They don't enter into your space. They just stay stuck in their woe is me kind of mentality. Just because they definitely feel their pain and they let everybody know, “My life isn't going very well. I'm moody. I'm depressed.”, but they're so busy going into that space that they don't think like you. Keep in mind, narcissists don't think normally. You're assuming, if you can access how you're hurting, it doesn't necessarily translate into them showing empathy toward you.
Dr Carter
Youre humility and vulnerability is another quality that makes you sooooo endearing.
Hope your eyes are rested and better.
Your insights are invaluable.
Thanks, Janine.
Im i a realist when it comes to timing on this desease its wide range. Time person life that is not ready to open a can of worms as to the more mature that realy want to learn tackle. You know what i mean timing is essential
It's not just a lack of capacity for insight - it's the outright refusal, or FEAR of it
You can love a narcissist, but make sure it's not pity (if you're an empath). Pity isn't marital love. These people are not good marriage partners.
Thank you so much dr Carter. Your wisdom and loving assistance are invaluable for me. God bless you❤
To the girlfriend with the new boyfriend: After listening in, I would tell you to leave him now, while you can. Do not wait for 40-50 years. It’s too hard of a life. It’s a rollercoaster life. Just some short and sweet advice from a 68 year old woman with a lot of experience with a spouse like that….
The "am i the narcissist?" part was something i really needed to hear today! I'm still getting the narcissist oughta my head! He tried, after i stupidly, and ignorantly asked him if he could possibly be a covert narcissist? I know better now. I just needed to hear that one again!
Thank you!
The humanity here makes it all so warm and relatable. Debbie's video was one of those that started me subscribing here!
So pleased!!
Thank you for assisting me on my way to understanding what happened to me; now forgiving and loving myself.
You are so welcome
Dr. C, I'm having to do more caretaking for my elderly mother who can be mildly narcissistic. She turns every conversation back on to herself. No insight when confronted about little behavioral things. She also pretends to know what other people think/feel. And she has started rewriting history into stories of how other people were struggling and she saved them. She's the hero of every story she tells. I can handle this, but not when it involves me and our historical interactions. She is also struggling with dementia, complicating everything. My ex therapist told me she doesn't get a "pass" no matter how old she is. I want to kindly address issues with her when it involves me, but it rarely improves anything for long. She goes right back to how she was before we talked. I want to help her during this time and I know she won't be around much longer, but the fake stories and rewritten memories are driving me crazy sometimes. I find it is an issue of my integrity and reality if I don't correct her stories that involve so much gaslighting. Any advice?
While I agree with the therapist, at some point you have to ask if your mother cares in the least about your insights. You can only state your convictions or interpretations so many times. If she is truly incapable of incorporating insight, you then have to decide the level of interaction you're willing to participate in. BTW, if it makes you feel better, I also had a parent like this and decided to measure my time with him, knowing that meaningful conversations would get us nowhere.
If she is at the end of her life, perhaps the loving thing to do is to allow her to go out with her own self-comforting thoughts about the great life she believes she had. To do that will make you great, and there is no shame to correct in doing that.
@@SurvivingNarcissism Thank you Dr.C. This is helpful. I'm pretty much her only caretaker, so it's hard to cut back on my level of interaction until she needs to go into some sort of supported living environment, but I suppose I could at times when I need that and I am going to remember that. I see other people her age still have higher levels of insight and empathy, so I know her age shouldn't give her a pass. I'm very sorry you had to deal with a similar or same situation. I appreciate you using your experience and education to help me get some wisdom on this. I truly do.
My strongly narcissistic mother is 89, and my imperfect but otherwise good father passed away a year ago. Long story short, a psychiatrist once told me that in elderly years, the brain is mostly no longer "elastic" and is not going to change as it did in younger years. My mother also reinvents the past where she wants to be remembered as everything she is not. My half-siblings from her earlier marriage are 70 and 71, nothing but vultures and gold diggers for my father's estate. My mother had all his things given away and thrown out three days after his passing, when I was temporarily out of the 11-year "no contact" with her, and she said she "just doesn't know why" she didn't think that I, my father's only biological relative, would want anything of his. She even had my dad's healthy cat euthanized without offering it to me. When I prompted her to respond to her lifetime of abuse of me and everyone else (mainly me) she always repeated, "I believe you, but I don't remember it". She destroyed my father's will which had me in it getting everything my dad worked his life for, then she destroyed her own will which had me in it the same way, and then she had a new will drafted excluding me (except for minimum not to sue and nothing if I do sue) while giving my dad's entire estate to my half-siblings who only ever used him. Still, they do not care for her, she will probably die alone in the house and the neighbor will find her.
Narcissists do not change, and in fact they get worse (better at being narcissists) as they age. You need to focus on you, not your mother. This may include continuing to care for her instead of hiring someone, what is right for you? But from my story, you can tell I would not offer you any hope at all that depends on her. I suppose maybe just accept that her words and actions are all about her, and maybe set your mind to ignoring the fact they are just a false fantasy which doesn't require you to absorb it, just observe it from a mental distance. Maintain your own truth and be the man you want to look back on with no regrets, and only you know what that means. Take care.
Your integrity and reality are yours and yours alone. She doesn't get to determine them. Stay strong and hold on to who you are.
Blessings in abundance Dr C. 😊
Thank you so much.
I love you Les! This video is brilliant! What a relief. I found myself laughing at times in this. It gets to be quite humorous at times when you really understand how ridiculous it is.
So many truth nuggets!
Thank you! I really love listening to you. You have taught me sooo much, I have a good therapist as well. And dear dr Les, I am now in a place I did not know existed
You are so welcome...keep leaning forward!
Thank you for your wisdom and straightforward answers to difficult questions. I have gotten so much support from your channel. Met a woman seeking help for her elderly covert narcissistic mother and I highly recommended becoming a part of Team Healthy. Thank you and God bless.
This presentation addressed many open issues for me. Of all the advice I have heard you give, your most impactful words for me were "he's insane". Its funny how I didn't take that as an insult but as a statement of fact. Perhaps it was your delivery. Nonetheless, it had a very important effect on me. You are also very good at giving people "choice". Your response to one of my early questions almost took my breath away. I momentarily stopped in my tracks. I think I would like to hear more about how you might address someone who melts down in your office. Because you know their shrieking won't end with your initial response. I liked that you confirmed that "yes" my narcissist husband switching from overt to covert/eeyore to covert could be a thing. (I'm hoping he stays in the covert phase; I can't live with the overt and have told him so). As far as how someone might become a narcissist: I think your explanation (heredity/environment) left out the spiritual dimension of over-riding fear. I see this as playing a major role. (Then there are the narcissists who are seemingly that way because their parents were overindulgent. They are a different breed but are also, seemingly, without empathy or introspection.)
The thing I understand and actually have compassion for is that they are generous and nice in public -rather than be more ‘real’- likely bc they were given a harsh message that they were TOO MUCH as a child. They have to hide the flaws bc they feel no one wants to know.
Doesn’t just about everyone hide what they are going through in public of it is a difficult and emotional subject?
I asked my mother to give me a copy of my grandmothers will. I was in the will so I have a legal right to it. She just refuses to provide it to me. I will have to drag her into court to get it now.
My siblings and I have yet to see our father’s will. He passed away 10 years ago. But our narc mom doesn’t hesitate to tell us all “I’m spending your inheritance” such a nut job! Good luck with yours!
If the will was probated you should be able to find a copy of it at the county clerk’s office it was filed in. Hope that helps. I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this!
@@dnk4559 thank you!
@@dnk4559 I don't know what county. Probably Westchester or Queens..
@@harmonizedigital. that makes it more difficult.
Thank you once again,i really appreciate you!!
You are so welcome
You have been a great help. Thank you so much Dr. C
Glad it was helpful!
Team Healthy!! 💙🎶
Thank You!
Hi Dr C
Your talk on this subject resonated with me so much and I'm sure with many other people on this channel, it actually brought me some comfort.
I chuckled when you expressed Dr C... if you were to say to a covert narcissist that you kind of had a sense that they are one, that they'd look at you as if you had three eyeballs 👀 👀 👀 hehe....
Hope you're having a lovely evening. Waco time, it's 8.04pm currently Friday, where in Auckland, NZ it's 2.04pm Saturday.
Thank you Dr C.
Monica. New Zealand.
I'll be in bed in a couple of hours, about the time you start cooking dinner!
That's right Dr C 🙂.. hope you rest well...and Gus! I suspect he's been napping soundly throughout the day, I wonder at times how old Gus is.
On the subject of dinner.. I'm getting hungry.
I am deeply disturbed by the way lack of compassion, selfishness and mean-spiritedness is showing up in the next generation of my family, who were raised by narcissists. This new generation is not quite narcissistic but one is mad, the other is quietly ring-wing, mean-spirited and selfish dressed up in pseudo intellectual langage to sound reasonable and clever on that dreadful medium Facebook, where so many people post their horrible opinions.
I so get what you're saying, Snowbear!
@@SurvivingNarcissism Thank you Dr Carter
Thanks, "Dad"!
My sister is pathologically competitive to the point of absurdity. She obsessively compares everyone and everything to some expectation of imagined perfection that is ridiculous. All it ever does is make her miserable that no one and nothing can ever measure up. No wonder she's so unpleasant to be around all the time. She's always irritable and stressed out and impatient. Sucks to be her. And she's 60 yrs old now, she'll never find the friendship or love she ever hoped to find because no one will ever be good enough for her.
Thank you so much
My notes (edited transcript) (first two questions - TH-cam limited the length):
2:17 Today the topic that I have kind of focused in on that is narcissists don't think in normal terms. Sometimes when you, as a person who's trying to be healthy, comes in contact with that very unhealthy narcissistic person, you're thinking, “Certain things make sense to me. It would seem to reason that that person would also see how common sense works and how I can perhaps connect with them in that kind of way.” That can become part of your undoing when you want to superimpose normalcy and insight on individuals who are defined by the absence of all of that. That's when they can pull you down into their hole. So, it's going to be so necessary for you to see how that tendency is there and its ongoing and it's something that they have brought in from their deep history. There are many reasons that they have that, but we can't really assume that narcissist will have the same goal for normalcy as you do. Here's part of the crazy making: they think of themselves as the gold standard. It's like, “If I could just get you to think like me, then problem solved.” They have this false self; they have this alternate reality that they live with. They think of themselves as being better than you and superior. That's part of what we mean when we talk about that word narcissism. It's going to be necessary for you to know that's where they're coming from so that you don't get caught trying to plead your case too much or you don't get caught trying to force them to have some wisdom and insight. That simply isn't going to be there, so just know that's what we're dealing with.
4:26 The first person asked the question, “Dr. C, does the narcissist realize that you might see how fake they are whenever they put on their mask and lovebomb other people, like neighbors for example, right in front of you or do they just kind of forget about that possibility because they're so fixated on getting narcissistic supply from a potentially different source? My dad has always been real nice toward people outside the house but treated my mom and I like dirt.” We have a couple of questions here; let's break it down. Do they see how fake they are when they put on that mask? The answer is nope, they don't see it. As part of their narcissism there is an element of being self-deluded. You've heard me refer to the false self. Early on, before you ever showed up on the scene, they have concocted this notion that says, “There's certain things that I want people to see in me. Of course, it's the good stuff. Then there are multiple things that I am not going to allow people to see. In fact, I'm not even going to admit it to myself.” For example, if they have a bad temper or if they lie a lot or if they're moody or difficult or argumentative it's like, “No, I'm not that way. The only reason that you might think that I am is because you have a problem and you come towards me with all your difficulties. So, you're actually the problem.” Their delusional thinking goes that far. So, when you ask the question, “Do they do they know when they're putting on the mask?”, the answer is no. What they'll say is, “I finally found someone that I can be nice to. I finally found someone who gets me.” They'll think of it in that kind of way. When you say that they're love bombing someone, they probably are, but they'll think, “No, I'm not love bombing. What do you mean by that? I'm just a friendly guy. I'm just nice.” Behind the scenes, with the person that has to live with them, they are like, “You're an idiot. You're no good.” They criticize, they grumble, they moan, they groan. It's sad to say, but narcissists, because of all of this false self and alternate reality, can predictably show a very, very low level of self-awareness. They have very poor insight. Every now and then I’d have a narcissist that would come into my office. I remember so well this one guy that came in and said, “Oh yeah, I'm a narcissist. My wife has pointed that out to me. I'm kind of a sociopath too.” Sure enough, when he started describing how he lived his life, “Bingo, you hit that one.” He had that intellectual awareness it didn't translate into any kind of internal adjustment. So, he's kind of BSing himself. “Even if I know it, it doesn't make any difference because I don't care.” That's that low empathy; the low inclination to know how to blend. “If you're going to hang with me, you're just going to have to get used to it. That's the way I am.” Sometimes they may have a little bit awareness like that but most of them don't even go that far. It's like, “Yeah, there's a problem all right and the problem is you.” Then this person, in asking the question, they were sort of going towards the real answer when they said, “Do they just forget about this and get fixated on getting narcissistic supply from another source?” Bingo. It's like, “I can't necessarily get those of you inside my house to go along with me, but there's somebody over there. They don't know me as well as you do and they don't see all my flaws. I’ve got my eye on that person.” So, they can be charming; they can be friendly; they can be helpful; they can show interest. But it's part of the act. Then if that person that they're giving all this nice attention to becomes an insider, then the narcissist can't keep the mask up forever. It's going to come off.
❤ Love Team Healthy ❤
Thanks Dr C.. I look so fwd to these Team Healthy videos .. and your ongoing support & wisdom! Keep up the great work… God Bless 🙏🏼😇
Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom, this is so helpful & healing for me ❤️🙏🏻
24 yrs ago this insightful teaching would have saved my life. I am not bitter abt what I did not know.
I married a victim personified.
Lol his ex was crazy!!!! Now I’m his crazy ex😂😂😂😂
Whoops he forgot he was a medical prof. with a self medicating problem
Oh lord. My Holy Ghost or angels removed him from my life.
Dr C if only during the engagement time I had this info. I do now Ty & it id spot on. For all mankind
My notes (eighth - tenth questions)
29:32 Which leads me to my next question. This person apparently is in a newer relationship and says, “How can a narcissist even grasp the idea that they're controlling other people when they're so entrenched with the concept that they are the victim? I'm really confused how to make my boyfriend go to therapy, let alone make him aware.” So, you have this young lady who has a new boyfriend and apparently, she's the kind of person that says, “Oh I love talking about personal things. I like talking about growth and what it means to be healthy.” When you're in that that stage of a relationship where you're trying to figure out what your future is going to look like, obviously, to her credit, it's like, “Well, let's just talk about the hard stuff. Let's put ourselves out there and discuss pluses and minuses, pros and cons. Who you are. What you believe.” Then this person is realizing that every time I talk to my boyfriend about those kind of topics, that person just kind of plays the victim. “Well yeah, I've got some hurt in my life and it's because my mother or it's because my girlfriend or it's because these people in my childhood were so mean to me or it's because I gave myself over to a job and they fired me.” It's always someone else's fault. So whenever they're talking about their problems and seemingly being personable with you, they're not. They're simply rehearsing in their mind, “The reason that I have problems is due to all the idiots that are around me.” This individual is saying, “How do I get that person to reflect on themselves? How do I make them go to therapy? Let alone make him become aware? The answer is, “You don't.” As that girlfriend who's maybe looking down the road towards a potential future, what you want to do is express your beliefs and your preferences and your convictions. You want to ask penetrating questions. “Let's talk about when you and I have these anger moments or when we get frustrated or when we are defensive.” Or, “You mention that there was some things with a past relationship or with your family of origin, let's talk about the meaning of that.” You want to go into a thoughtful, insightful kind of space but it's the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. You're making the assumption that they can have that insight and part of the definition of narcissism is the inability to have insight. I've come to the conclusion that some individuals just have the capacity for insight. I remember when I was a little kid, if an adult said something to me that had a personal dimension to it I'd be like, “Oh, I like hearing that. I like thinking about it.” For whatever reason, that was in me when I was a child. I loved it. I ate it up. As I got older, when I was a kid, I'd usually read about one book a week and I'd always pick biographies or history books. I don't know if any of you remember the ‘We Were There’ books?I like reading about human experiences. I'd have friends and they wouldn't get anywhere close to that. They'd want to do other things. Well, that was just in me. I'm hardwired that way. Some of you may be hardwired that way. Other individuals, it's like, “No comprende. I don't think like that. It doesn't even cross my mind.” You can't make a person want insight. What you can do is make it available. In this woman's case, it'd be like if you continue to make these options available and that person continues to play the victim role and they won't get out of it and they won't go into your space with you, then you have to start asking the question, “Why am I in this relationship?” If it's this way now, think about it 5 and 10 years down the road. Whatever inequity you're feeling now is going to be more down the road. Is this a relationship that you need to commit to for a long period of time? This is a super big red flag. So know that if you continue to go further and if you have to force feed somebody awareness and insight, it's not going to work. Do not assume that another person has that same desire as you.
34:36 This person says, “Do you think that a malignant narcissist is able to radically accept everything around them and start changing themselves?" The answer is so no, no, no, no. Did I say that clearly enough? No. Can a malignant narcissist have radical acceptance of the world in front of them to the extent that they begin changing themselves? On that scale of narcissism, if we were to go from zero (and nobody, by the way, is down at zero) with no narcissistic tendencies whatsoever and we go all the way up to 100 and that's the far end where the narcissism completely consumes them, the malignant narcissist is in that top 10th percentile and beyond. These are individuals who have so turned off any need to know from you. There's a mean spirit. They have zero need for empathy and when I say zero, I mean below zero; they don't want to know what you feel beyond being able to figure out how to manipulate and exploit you. When you have somebody that's that malignant and they just go that far down there, it's just so deeply entrenched in their character that you can't expect anything other than what they present to you. Maya Angelou says, “When somebody shows you who they are, believe them.” That's exactly what we're talking about. They're just mean, and they're committed to it and they do not care.
36:27 This person asks, “How do you feel about the fact that a narcissist is no more making the choice to be narcissistic than a depressed person is making the choice to be depressed?” First of all, we're talking about apples and oranges. Narcissism is a character disorder; depression is a mood disorder. Big distinction there. Some individuals with depression have various reasons to be that way. They may have circumstances in their life that warrant a depressed feeling, frankly. Or they may have some biochemical issues that inhibit them from being able to access joy, etc. I'm a bit conflicted about do narcissists have choices to be what they are or is this just the way they are? There's one lady whose been doing twin studies and sibling studies and personality inventories and has concluded, with a great deal of research, that between 40 and 60% of your personality is pretty hardwired. So let's just call it half. About half of your personality is simply hardwired into you and then the rest is given to you by environmental influences. Etc. But you see, even then the environment can pick up on that 50% that you're hardwired toward and can respond because of that. For example, if you have an oppositional child, then the parent or teachers or friends are going to respond to that oppositional child in ways that they're not going to respond to a calm child. So, it actually reinforces what's already there. So many of these people who have a strong narcissistic bent have been this way for so long and they tend to have a leaning in that direction anyway and then the environment can play into it. But they're just there. This is important for many of you who have a son or a daughter who may have developed some really strong narcissistic tendencies and you think, “Where did I go wrong?” We're not going to lay all the blame at the feet of mom and dad and the family system. Some people are just so inclined toward that, unfortunately. Having said that, this is where the conflict comes up inside of me. There is still a choice. Most people, even though they can have a strong narcissistic bent, know that telling lies is not a good thing, for example. Or screaming at the top of your lungs is not going to be a good strategy unless you're just trying to totally intimidate someone. They know basic right versus wrong at an intellectual level. But then the question is, have they so shut down the empathy feature, have they so shut down the interconnected level of engagement with others that they just don't care? Some of that can, I think, be changed, but with many of them, it won't. I spoke with a professional not that long ago and frankly I was kind of surprised by the naivety of that person. That person was saying, “You get anybody that's going to go to counseling and get them a good counsel and they can change. They'll change. People that say narcissists can't change, I think they're quitters. They have given up and I don't give up on people.” And I'm thinking, “I don't think that you've been in the same therapy office I've been in. There'd be some individuals that come into my office, and I would work as hard as can. And they'd walk away and I'd know it's going to be the same old, same old. So, they make me look like a failure. Then other folks would come into my office and we'd talk about some similar kind of patterns and they'd walk out of there and they'd make me look like a genius because it's like, “I was waiting for someone to talk with me about this. I'm so pleased.” Sometimes it's just it's not me, it's not my efforts, it's just who they are and what they bring. Sometimes there's choice; sometimes there's not. There are times when the bottom line is I have to go with what's in front of me.
I was gonna Right!!! Right?? But then I remembered all the organizations I had been a part of such as all the 12 step programs. Selfishness and the Big “ I “ are still pretty popular and these people have tons of collateral damage that seems to flow like water under a bridge…,. 😢
I’ve known my wife has been an alcoholic and sex addict for 27 years now. Somehow she convinced me that she didn’t need SA and AA for the past 10 years.
She has gone back into SA I know for sure for the past couple of years.
The element I was missing is that she is a covert narcissist.
That has been the missing link for me in understanding the tornado/hurricane that is her.
How do I deal with all of this? She has moved out and I can’t imagine remaining married but at the same time I can’t imagine divorcing.
Before I even get into questions.. I have never been to Texas but I have been looking for places in the Dallas area and in the Austin area.. I have noticed that there are snobby people.. I have noticed snobby people everywhere that I have been.. That is part of life.. I am not sure if they are Narcissists or not but that is a HUGE part of our society.. I should be able to apply the same principles as dealing with Narcissists with dealing with people who think they are better than me.. When there are whole cultures or religions that are shame based and that think they are better than others.. I could see how there could be issues...
1. Fake.. The most important part is that I can see it and that I trust myself..
2. Therapist.. To me it is about keeping out of their stuff..
3. Pain.. I would say that they like to be in the Misery..
4. Shame.. This gets into what I was saying about snobby.. Shame and snobby goes hand in hand..
5. Grandiose Covert... I can see both of them in Narcissists..
Goddag from Denmark - 🇩🇰
Goddag from the USA!👋😃Jeg taler ikke dit sprog, men jeg har Google Oversæt. Jeg håber din dag er vidunderlig!
Tak for dit svar. Det var pænt af dig. Håber du har det godt overther.
In Thanksgiving: ( Southeastern Texas: USA 🇺🇸) : btw: Doctor Les Carter, Ph.D.: ( presenter- awareness- mental health- information ℹ️ fabulous) : btw: thank you 😊: again: thank you 😊
For the record- thanks 😊 to Gus ( a regular dog 🐶) as well: again: thanks 😊
For the record- wishing both you and your family as well a delightful day
Dr. C, in one answer you mention a sociopath who knew he was a narcissist, but didn't care. Is it more common for a malignant narcissist to be aware that they are a narcissist than it is for the 'average' (non-malignant) narcissist?
This is not based on any research that I know, but based on my experience, the MN is more likely to be aware, and truly couldn't care less.
Thank you Dr. C. I wish somebody would study that!
I'm curious, There seems to be so many narcissists around it has made me wonder, Is there a Pandemic of Narcissism?
I think I am a woe-is-me person because I don’t like to lie about my health or situation which always has a difficult piece to it especially as I get older.
My notes (fifth - seventh questions):
18:13 This person asked, “What is this shame that narcissists have? Where does it come from?” Narcissism has a very strong shame component and many of them, particularly the overts, but the coverts too, can come across as though, “I got life by the tail. I'm doing fine. (MY NOTE: OK, I have to quote Han Solo: “We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you.”) Everything's great. Yeah, I've got some morons in my life, but you know my way of dealing with all of that is just to dismiss them.” They don't necessarily reveal that they're feeling shame but the way you know that they're really struggling with shame is you'll notice that the narcissist will not and when I say WILL NOT, capital all across the board, they will not let you know what their failings are, or if they do let you know what their failings are it's so they can complain about the person who made them miserable. They can't go into a space that says, “Yes, I'm a mistake maker. Sometimes I blunder.” Because that would bring shame upon them. Narcissists, inevitably, like you and me, are exposed to a judgment system when growing up. When you're very early very young in your life, five, six, seven, eight years old, you realize that whatever you think, say, and do, somebody's going to stick a grade on it and they're going to tell you if it's good or excellent or wonderful or terrible. That budding little narcissist may not have had permission to say, “Let's talk about this.” And they may not have had anybody say, “Let's walk through this in a way where we can find some sort of relief.” That little child who later on become a narcissist begins realizing, “So when you see me do this instead of this, you're going to grade me. You're going to judge me.” So, they figure out how to be competitive and have an edge. “Okay, what that means is I'm not going to let you see what's wrong with me.” They get to the point where they dread anyone finding out who they are and how they struggle. They can't admit their own failings or inadequacies. They’re in total coverup mode. “I know that if you know a, b and c about me, you're going to be down on my case.” “I hate that part of me; therefore, I'm not going to acknowledge it. Period. End of discussion.” Healthy individuals can say, “If you get to know me, you're going to see that I have flaws and I'm willing to work on that. I'm willing to acknowledge it. I'm willing to say here's who I am. But at the same time, I don't feel like I have to carry shame because of it. For the rest of my life, I'll have many somethings that I can work on so that I can make improvements.” Healthy people do that. Narcissists are not normal enough, they're not healthy enough, to be able to go into that space.
22:03 This person says, “Dr. C, can a narcissist be both grandiose and covert at the same time? My “friend” (I'm the only one she had left, although I don't really consider her a friend) is definitely grandiose but she employs some very sneaky strategies. Are they always like that? Very, very commonly they'll employ both. When you have issues with anger, it can come out in many different ways. Some people will suppress it; some people will be openly aggressive and brash and loud and harsh; some people will be passive aggressive and then some people will hold on to grudges and contempt. There are all sorts of options. No one person is going to just pick one of those dysfunctional ways. Typically, when people are angry, they can be all over the board with all of that. Now let's take that same style of thinking and apply it to narcissism. Are narcissists who can be very overt, are they just overt and that's it? No, they can also be covert; they can also do blame shifting; they can also have the tendency to hide and not let you know what's going on in their life; they can be all over the board because it's just there's so many options that they have. It's like, “I'll take all of them.” If you have an overt narcissist, sometimes they can be very covert. If you have a covert narcissist, they can be more overt from time to time, but they tend not to go in that dimension as much because it's like, “I've watched those people, and it tends to get them in trouble.” So covert narcissists are more sneaky and they're more sly and deliberate. But the bottom line is there are many ways that it can play out and it's going to show up typically in a wide array of behaviors.
24:41 This person says, “Why are we always the ones who have to handle these narcissistic people with kid gloves?” Here you are you're saying, “Okay Dr. C, you've got this whole channel and all these videos and articles and courses that are dedicated to the survivors of narcissistic abuse. What about them? Why is it that we're the ones that have to put in all of the work?” This person goes on to say, “I listen to your videos all the time and you give helpful advice, but I noticed how it's us who have the real responsibility of having to try to heal these broken relationships.” The question is, “What's going on there?” Now, there's a compliment in here toward you when you say, “If anything's going to happen, if healing is going to happen, I'm going to have to take the initiative.” The compliment is you have the capacity, you have the skill set. The analogy that I try to use is, let's say that you have a person that has a PHD in mathematics. Let's take it even further - they're able to go into quantum physics and they can explain string theory and they know all sorts of things about math. Then that person comes across another individual who is eight years old and in the third grade and they've just figured out addition and subtraction. Now they're trying to figure out a little bit of the multiplication table and that person with the PHD in mathematics is thinking, “I need to get this kid that's in the third grade to think like me.” It's not going to happen, is it? By definition, you have one person that's not very well-developed and you have another person that's extremely well-developed and there's a huge disparity there. So that person with the PHD in mathematics is going to say, “If I'm going to talk math to this person, I'm going to have to go down on the third grade level and explain things to them in that kind of way.” You're on TH-cam watching good old Les Carter and you're trying to figure out what's making these people the way they are. Give me a book or let me read some articles or I'll take a course. I really want to learn. Then you look over to that narcissistic person and say, “Please join me.” By definition it's like, “I'm not going to join you. Why would I join you? You're just a chum.” Keeping in mind that they think of themselves as falsely superior. They have no particular need to empathize with you or to tune into to what you say. They're defined by their own selfishness and their need to control. If they say, “Yeah, I need some help.”, that means they let go of their control, they lose their power. So, you're asking that narcissist to come join you in the psychological realm saying, “That does sound curious to me. I really want to learn. I want to grow.” The reason they don't is because these are people who have arrested development. You've heard the term fixation. That was a Freudian term. You may be all the way up in the in your adult forms of development, where you're going deep into insight and wisdom and empathy, and you really can see through certain veneers. And that narcissist, who may be 46 years old, is like, “Well actually, I'm still thinking like that third grader and you're wanting me to come up to your level. Nah, it's not going to work.” So, you wind up, if you're going to deal with them, you have to talk with them in terms that they can understand. I go back to my opening comments, one of the biggest mistakes that you can make is you can assume that these are people that that can have normalcy, just like you're trying to seek normalcy. You have to remind yourself that narcissism is not a healthy pattern; it's a pattern of dysfunction. It's a character disorder. Many individuals tend to say so stuck in it to their dying day. They just don't figure it out. Every now and then some do; most don't. Sometimes they have a crisis or sometimes a little maturity begins to kick in. It depends on how deep they are in the spectrum. Remind yourself why it’s you - the answer is a high compliment to you - because you're a person that likes to think and they're not. “Well, why can't they do it?” That's almost an empty question. They don't.
When you encounter one you need therapy take medication for the sickness that you don’t own.
Are there any other parents out there with adult children who are ?
Of course, dummy me confided in her when I was talking to her about how we're having problems and that, I really Empire anded up divorcing him and at the end of the back, and forth on the messaging, I told her to stop messaging him. And he said, what are you gonna do, come out here and beat my, you know what and I said, you don't even care about me that you don't care if I'm out on the street, you're trying to wreck my marriage, and you know what she said to that, she said, oh? Well I thought you were going to divorce him anyway That's how deluded these people are when they're in their rage that they will not lose at , they will destroy you
Someone with depression will tend to treat the depression as a problem and it's a problem they have and their choice is to work on that problem. A narcissist doesn't treat how they act as being a problem and they treat everyone else as having the problem, they don't choose to work on themselves. It's not a fact that a narcisssist doesn't choose how they are any more than a depressed person, because a depressed person will choose to work on themselves. I more blunt part of myself wants to say 'neither is a choice' is just enabler garbage. There are choices after either thing has occurred. Narcissists choose to commit to narcissism. They like it.
Are there any “Team Healthy” shirts? If so, how do I go about getting one? Or A MUG like Dr. C!😂
If you go to www.survivingnarcissism.tv then click the about tab, you should find what you are asking about! Thanks!!
My notes (eleventh - end) (TH-cam limited the length)
I should probably not do such detailed notes on Midweek...
41:06 This person says, “Are covert narcissists consciously aware that they're covert narcissists? Are the schemes that you mentioned conscious or premeditated?” The general rule is if you were to say, “I kind of get the sense that you're a covert narcissist.” Most of them, 99%, would look at you like you have three eyeballs. “No, if there's a narcissist in the room, it's you.” I can't tell you how many times people will ask me, “Am I the narcissist here because that person's been telling me that?” If you're asking that question, that's a good sign because that implies that you care and you're thinking and if it's true you want to probe and you want to figure out how to deal with it. Covert narcissists are so dedicated to phoniness, fake, cover up, sneaking behaviors that the first person that they've faked out is not you, it's themselves. In order for them to be good at being a covert narcissist, they have to convince themselves, “I really am better than everybody else. If you suggest otherwise, clearly you don't know what you're talking about.” That's what you're dealing with.
42:33 So we go back to our theme that we have today and that is that narcissists don't think in normal terms. You so want them to do so and, again kudos to you when you say, “I really want to be that kind of person that seeks wisdom. I want to be the kind of person that if you find something that's inappropriate, tell me about it. I I'll listen to you carefully.” We so need more people like that. I'm going to give you one last thought. It's my conviction that maybe 20% of the population is intuitive enough to say, “I really want to change.” Maybe 23% or maybe 17%. A lot of folks may not be pathological, but they just don't think uh I mean think about it. When you go to the grocery store and you see a lot of folks, I do this sometimes, does that person think about the meaning of life? How many of these folks, that never even crosses their mind? There are a lot of people out there that don't really think very deeply. Then you have some and I don't know what the percentage is, but it's pretty far down there, who are just like, “If I have pathology, I don't care. It's not my fault; you did it.” They're not going to adjust. There can be some folks that'll say, “Yeah, I have I have anger issues. I have depression. I know that I'm mean sometimes.” And then they'll say, “But I don't think I can do anything about it. They sabotage themselves before they even get off the ground.” Any way you look at it, you want to recognize that's a very real phenomenon.
My goodness!!!
I know. It's crazy! But thanks for putting out such a good episode!
What about the commitment to love and redemption? How long can you stay to help if they're just on the spectrum of narcissistic behavior?
How long can you stay? I see that as a personal choice dependent on your worldview. I have chosen to stay-- at first out of concern for the children. I have to admit that before finding this channel I was having quite a bit of trouble holding it (me) together. The unpredictable treats of violence were too much for me and I didn't have a name for what was going on. Things have settled down now a great deal as he has switched to an almost exclusively covert form. (As a matter of shear self-preservation, I had let it be known that I would certainly leave him if the overt outbursts continued.) I now try to look at his condition much the same as I would any other disability where the vows "in sickness and in health" still apply. Perhaps, that could be your approach also.
Can someone with schitzoeffective disorder also be Narcissistic?
And then they come to the strangest conclusions! And think they are the correct ones! Self deluded indeed. Interestingly, one I knew long ago went to a far-off third world region, complete with warlords. Who continued his outrageous behavior. This turned out to be fatal. Couldn't have happened to a more appropriate person. Although it did cut off his emotional growth. And head.
I’m sorry, but I did laugh at the end of your story…hey, I feel better, so thanks for that 😂 Even if we don’t witness it, the narc will get all they have coming to them…in the end