🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯Spot on!!!! If anyone of those people who make arguments about which brand is best. If they cannot identify to us which boards were planed with which brand hand plane then they need to just shut up and keep using the tools they use and we’ll keep using the tools we use to get to the same results. “A well built piece of furniture.” If it removes the wood from where you need it removed then it has done it’s job. Great video sir!!! Keep’em coming.
I think you have to credit your fellow countryman, Paul Sellers for router popularity. He showed how it easy to get good fitting tenons and just generally how to use tool that was not fully appreciated at the time. Since watching his instructions I can't remember last time I used an electric one, which I have never been fond of anyway.
Hi Jim. Ah, good point! Showing the versatility of the tool is certainly going to boost the uptake. As mentioned in the video, I haven't previously used one all that much. I can certainly see the potential benefits of it.
I agree. Paul himself has said the router plane was not popular among woodworkers when he was a young apprentice, at least not for the many uses he puts them to. Seems to me that he's found many uses for the tool and has passed that along to "the masses". Truly a unique man in his skill and outlook.
I think you're spot on with this. Paul Sellers has a number of routers hanging off his tool cupboard and then the price shoots up. Now a Preston router will set you back £500 or £600.
I absolutely agree with you about lifting expensive tools over affordable ones. For me personally, having no practical learning experience and teaching myself everything from TH-cam and various articles, it took buying a better, ready to use plane to figure how they are supposed to perform. While I knew in theory how a sole should be flat, how to set a chip breaker, how to adjust things, it did not click until I got one. After that I was able to force a newly made cheapo stanley no. 4 with plastic handles into a working, fine shaving condition, couldnt do that before if my life depended on it. Affordable things can work great, for me it was the know how that took the most time and nowadays, my most used planes are wooden ones, albeit with horridly adjustable chipbreakers, they are still my favourite tools to use.
Thanks Petr. This is a really valuable comment as it speaks of real experience. I'm glad a quality tool was a springboard to refining tools and making the step over to wooden planes which are severely underrated.
@@faceedgewoodworking That they are. I'm lucky that mine are locally made, very cheap and with quite good steel. Although i cannot understand why they use a bent piece of steel for a a chip breaker. Usually the chip breaker would be a flat piece with a bend at the very edge close to the blade. These ones are bent across their entire length, which means that when you tighten them they move around like crazy. I doubt that it would be so expensive to make the right way and this the only serious downside for me.
Hi, I like the way you put this over, personally I think there's too much pressure and hype on all consumables these days, from cars to cornflakes it doesn't matter, and the way the sales pitch is thrown at us can make the viewer, or reader feel inferior,or lacking someway if he doesn't buy this latest product,I've been guilty myself of being lured into parting whith hard earned cash at some woodworking show after watching a slick demonstration of some new tool, only to find out later it didn't do any better job in my own workshop than a tool I had already , well we live and learn, an old quote states, That fancy fishing tackle catches more fishermen than fish, and this is very true when it comes to tools and gadgets, I suppose some people are never satisfied unless they own the best of everything, and that's ok because their spending keeps industry going, to supply us mere mortals whith items that we can afford, and still do a good job for us, and let's face it the everyday stanley plane, maples chisel, to name but two will outlive several lifetimes of diy, amateur woodworking use if looked after. Many thanks for another interesting video mate, stay safe, best wishe's to you and your's, Stuart UK
Hi Stuart's, thank you for the comment! Yeah, the FOMO can be pretty overwhelming at times. Thankfully there is information out there showing that basic but well made tools are completely up to the job. Have a good evening Sir!
I have a vintage Record 071. In the past 6 years I used it once. On a different note, I wonder why the Preston pattern did not become more popular. Its design always made more sense to me. Record chose Preston's design for their shoulder planes. I wonder why they did not do the same with their router planes. Yeah, in the words of George Carlin, that's the kind of sh that keeps me up at night
Good question. I think the Preston casting might be a bit more difficult than the Stanley derivatives. I think Walke Moore Tools had a mare making their version.
@@faceedgewoodworking Yeah, I had forgotten about them, I guess they did not light the world on fire with that router either. At one point I was seriously considering ordering a dozen bases laser-cut from mild steel and making a small batch of router planes at home. Paul Sellers beat me to it with his wooden router planes :D
I thought Wood River was Rob Cosmnas planes and they were made in Canada?? Also, my first hand plane was a gift from a friend not too long ago, it is a Woden #4 and says it's made In England, are those good planes?
No! They are made in China. WoodCraft sells them in the US. Not available in the UK anymore. Quangsheng is available in the UK. That's pretty much a WoodRiver. Luban, JUMA, as I understand are all from the same Chinese factory. They are a good option for some.
@@faceedgewoodworking Wow. thank you for that information. I am a little let down with Rob now. He should specify that they are made in China, Rob sells them off his site and always talks big about them and makes it sound as if they are made in Canada, I assumed Rob was part owner. I was going to buy one when I made a big purchase on a plane, I was planning on buying a high end number 5. I currently have the Woden 4, a Stanly Handyman and a #4 Stanley. The 2 Stanly's I bought came with a #5 that has no name on it but the blade and chip breaker are not the right size, I assume that because I need the frog to be very far back or he blade sits below the mouth even with the adjuster all the way in. I think I will spend some time and try and really clean up the Woden I was given since you said it was a good plane. It feels great in my hand, I just think it needs some tlc. I have 2 months of wood work under my belt so im going through a major learning curve. I really appreciate the reply's and the effort you put into responding to your followers. I have really enjoyed your take on things and will continue to check out your back catalogue of videos. Subbed and looking forward to more.
@@viracocha03 no worries! I don't know how often Rob highlights where WoodRiver is made. I suppose in this day and age, unless someone specifically says it's made domestically it's probably made in China. Depending on your access to tools, a vintage No.4 like your Woden, along with a similar quality No.5 will have you well set. Don't be in a rush with anything. Woodworking at home is a pretty straightforward thing to do. My enemy is time! Thanks for the sub 👍
Another great video ! I have a mix of stanley\bailey and Veritas. and although I prefer the looks and function of the Veritas, my refurbed plains work great. On the Kitty Moses comment, it's crazy how people just gobble up what ever he is hawking that day. As arrogant as he is, he used to put out some decent Vids, but now its all infomercials. I have a Veritas router plane, and like you said I don't use it often... But glad I have it when I need it :) I have to disagree on the marking gauges a bit.... , I have two wooden gauges. first was a junky amazon knock off. hated it, and later bought I beautiful old British rosewood and brass gauge with double pins for mortises. Beautiful piece, but it had the same problem as the amazon junk. I find the pins tend to jump around quite a bit when marking. Am I doing something wrong ? After using a finds Veritas, with the metal cutting wheel rather then the pins, I bought one of those and its my go to :/ any tips on tuning up or using the pin based gauges would be appreciated !
Sounds like you have a great selection of tools there G. You're right to acknowledge how well the classic Bailey's work. I understand why KM is doing his thing. He wants to make money. That's absolutely fine. He works hard on his presentations. I only know of the router plane video but some of the claims he made in the video were odd to say the least. At the end of the day, if you get on better with the wheel gauges that's perfectly fine. I'm very familiar with the pin style and would be happy to share a few tips. Watch out for a short video soon!
Hi Graham nice video I owned a couple of the Chinese planes my mate had some lie neilson planes he could not believe how good the Chinese planes worked . Today I think the tool company has such good marketing and no how to sell a tool take the lie neilson all they did was upgrade to a thicker iron and cap iron and tell people stanley planes no good you need a big chunky iron well am not sold on it I am a huge user and fan of wooden planes they work as good as any metal plane . When I see the keyboard woodworkers spouging there must buy premium tools well I say go look at period furniture and houses 🏘. Great video
Hi Peter. Thanks for watching! There can be no doubt, from what I've seen, the Chinese made planes are very capable performers. From my hands on experience with the nice stuff it is simply that. Practical tools, made with pride to high tolerances. I think that's why I grabbed the watch analogy. Unless you're a diver, do you need a Rolex Submariner to tell the time or will a CASIO or Seiko do the same job. I love the Lie-Nielsen gear, I'd love to have one at some point. But it won't make the wood any smoother than a good Stanley.
You can only pee with what you got the modern planes I find to heavy I bought a no 3 and no 5 Clifton from a local guy great tools but heavy sold them on .has the postman been to your workshop yet if not he be there tomorrow. I have a record t5 I put a new iron in it I got from ebay from Axminster rider plane iron a bit thicker than stanley hold an edge no 4 size £7 posted
I'm having lots of fun buying old tools, it's nice to discover gems, restore stuff to use able condition and make it look good. I'm not too bothered about resale value when I buy it cheap and put in my time and effort. Tools are meant to be used, so making it fit for use is what I intend :) If it looks better after I'm done that's an added bonus 😀 I try to buy what seems to be old quality, but mostly it's for the nostalgic feel / look some of it has. And to be fair 25 euros spent now on something new doesn't get me the same quality after I've invested some time in a 25 euros old tool. It's a hobby so I don't care about the time=money mindset. If anything, it keeps me at home where I don't spend more money😂
Hi Daniel. It can be an education and just good fun getting old tools working well. Being prepared to put some time in has certainly helped me gain some insight. Thanks for sharing your experience.
@faceedgewoodworking thank you for your videos and sharing it all! For me the buying and restoring is also partially due to not having lots of space for woodworking. So it keeps me busy doing mostly quiet stuff and (very) slowly getting tools together for cheap until housing prices are alright or I find a partner to buy a house with with some extra space haha! For now a Workmate will do haha.
Another way to be “unique” is to do a modern improved version of a vintage tool that had a different design. For example most router planes are copies/improvements on a Stanley 71. The Walke Moore router plane is a modern improved version of a Preston router plane. That makes it unique in the modern router plane market. So you don’t need to invent something 100% new, just pick something more unique to avoid competing on price alone.
Absolutely. I know it's cheaper to do a copy and paste and that's not so bad if it's an old design. It just leaves me cold when modern stuff is just copied.
18:18 it just like the people who claim wooden planes are hard to adjust or don't work easily and they work fine I prefer them now over metal planes except from my old infill planes
Thank you for yet another really good topic and your valuable opinion. I enjoy your format and the candor with which you present your thoughts. Kind Regards from Pakistan and God bless.
Getting back onto the topic of the video isn't Lie Neilson guilty of the same transgression as Wood River? The bedrock patents expired in (guess) 1940, so the design is available for copy-cat manufacturers to exploit (some would say develop). I suppose the big difference is that Stanley stopped production long before Lie Neilson got into the act, while Wood River etc just decided they wanted a piece of the LN pie. I don't have a problem with that really.
Hi Richard. It's a tricky one. I would say Lie-Nielsen without reservation chose the Bedrock layout and didn't change the silhouette or proportions. They did however change materials and raise quality along with a few tweaks. I'm a fan of theirs, excellent product! I do understand how hurt they must have felt when Chinese options became available. But as mentioned in the vid, I don't think it harmed Lie-Nielsen at all. They seem to go from strength to strength.
You can't tell from a picture. My #3 - #7 are old stanleys. I have a Siegly combo (like the #45) and a Veritas Small Plow. The Siegly can do more (dadoes) but when I need grooves, I reach for the Veritas. The feel, adjustments are refined and a bit easier to use. If I had gotten the Siegly 1st, I would not have bought the Veritas. Its worth the difference. The premium planes feel better & have better ergonomics and its subtle. ex. A plastic handle often has a seam under your palm. The cheap one you would feel it. The premium will have it buffed out. It probably angles differently so its better when you're pushing it for hours. To get that shape moulded might need a more expensive process or non standard machine that the others either won't do or didn't know why the shape matters.
Hi Tom. The Veritas plough looks like a nice tool. I think I'm right in saying that it was inspired by the late Record plough, but don't quote me on that. I very much enjoy the new stuff, it's top notch. But I'm still a devotee of the Bailey and Wooden planes. Perhaps it's just familiarity?
I've definitely removed flash from plastic. It's a pretty straightforward process. Making wooden handles is certainly within reach for woodworkers too.
@@faceedgewoodworking Someone did a nice comparison to the Record (44?) and another smaller plow (Rapier). The conclusion is the Veritas is smoother, easier and feels good in the hand. When I was starting, a fellow woodworker brought in 3 chisels. Narex (their Richter wasn't out yet), Veritas and Lie Neilsen. Just holding them, the Lie Neilsen felt perfect. I think its an exact copy of the Stanley 750 (650?). IMO it was worth twice the $$ of the others. I ended up buying Pfeil bench chisels. The price/feel is *my* sweet spot. But the Lie Neilsen is better if you want to spend it.
The original vendors filed a patent & got a gov't sponsored monopoly on that design until it expired. Then its fair game for anyone to copy. That's the whole point of patents - to encourage sharing of designs. A good example is 3M's cubitron II mesh sanding pads. They had to wait until Mirka's patent on mesh sanding to come out with them. They also had the pattern difference (which I think they patented) but they couldn't come out with it earlier w/o violating Mirka's patent. Its possible 3M had to hold off on bringing out their additional innovation because of that. Its possible 3M's innovation was hindered by the patent in other words. I'm not against copies of expired patents. Then the vendors can build the same thing, but they will still have differences in quality, customer service, and production ability.
@@TomBuskey I completely agree with you. Patents work well, especially for large corporations that can defend them. I would imagine it's very difficult for a smaller player to pay all the development costs and make something that functions properly. Only to have it copied overseas. I have no idea how much development costs Vs copying but I imagine development is exponentially more expensive.
Post WWII in western nations the marketing became “when you own this tool you will magically be a master at the craft”. Now it’s over the top. Packout tool cases. Gizmosity wins over practical. It’s not the tool, it’s how you use it. As for stanley, the company bought out its competitors, plunged cash into marketing and mastered the growing industrialization of the late 19th c and early 20th c.
I've never seen a copycat product manufactured in China that was as good as the copied product. Having said that, China is where a manufacturer goes to have inexpensive products made so they can be sold inexpensively. Much of the inferiority in Chinese products is built in by retailers wanting to sell cheap product. China could produce a Lie-Nielsen copy that is every bit as good as the real thing, but who would want to pay for that? it may not end up being as expensive as an LN, but it would be a lot more that a Wood River; I liked your "Seiko at Rolex prices" analogy. The rest, in my opinion, is semantics over what is and what is not smart when it comes to manufacturing and selling something.
Having tested a WoodRiver 5 1/2 some years ago I can attest to them being very high quality. I didn't have a LN to contrast it against but no woodworker would find fault. I do however agree that for most retailers, cutting out a few nice features but keeping the look is a way to earn easier money.
@@faceedgewoodworking Well, I can't say much about Wood River planes because, outside of fooling around at a Woodcraft store, I haven't used one. Dangerous thing, talking about tools you haven't used. However, I have listened to the pundits. The planes have had several redesigns/improvements over the years to fix genuine problems. Kudos to Woodcraft for sticking with it and continually improving the product. At least they're interested in listening to folks and giving them the product they want. A better example of "build it cheap overseas" would be the reissue Stanley Sweetheart planes. I own several........ don't buy one.
We design in the US and build products in China. Started as a company that wanted to make good quality products, but ended up degrading our line over the past few years simply because the consumer dollar had spoken. They just unilaterally go for the cheapest priced in most cases. For us, downgrading the quality is not about making more profit. It's about being in business or not. So we have a sign up the wall these days that said "Do Not Over Engineer". But the thing is, we don't think we were over engineering in the past. We were just doing the right thing. It made us really sad in a way
Ah yes, the whole tool snob thing. I watched a video where a guy was carrying on about squares being out less than 0.0005" for woodworking. I'm sorry but what's he building? I have some absolutely horrible squares and they're all square enough for anything I'm ever going to do. I'm in the do more with less camp myself. Once you've reached a certain level of performance what you have can do the job. More isn't going to be much better then either. It's past the point of diminishing returns. We all need to develop better skills. That's what takes you over the top. Master the basics with simple gear. The chisel, the hammer, the saw and the plane. If it fits it ships.
Ah, the engineer woodworker. Nothing wrong with that but it's a pretty sterile life. Judging what's appropriate for the task in hand is very much a skill to be developed.
This has been the most annying debat to have in my own head, on one hand the mechanism of the Katz-Moses plane does make it different and I don't really care that much that it was made in china so it's not really a big deal. I still wouldn't buy it because I already have the Veritas and I'm not really a fan of Katz-Moses. On the other, it does piss me off, not because it has some common features but like you said if they just made it look more unique then there wouldn't even be a debate happening. I think it was just lazy on the part of Katz-Moses because he did come up with a unique router plane mechanism but then just grabbed another companies body without changing a thing. It would've be so simple to have a more round shape or more square or even just change the colors...
🍻 Yup! Katz-Moses seems like a hard working guy, I wish him well. I don't follow him aside from becoming aware of the router plane. You can also get it from Ali-Express and Dictum without his branding. My hunch is the router is a white label product that can be attributed to anyone who wants to hawk it. As with you, my bugbear is that it's presentation is lazy. It wouldn't be difficult for "the greatest tool maker of our time" 🤣🤢 to make the design their own.
I also have Veritas, features I liked at time of purchase, availability ( compared to original) craftsmanship, cutter sharpening, availability of different cutters, warranty. Not to say the original wasn't good but you never sure what you will get buying used online and missing cutter and parts. Katz Moses design of the base and handle is a blatant rip of of Veritas and I can understand the frustration in some one copying your original design. As far as the adjuster/holding on Katz Moses design he went after the biggest complaint on Veritas design. But by copying the Veritas design he wasted whatever benefit was created in my book. Yes on my Veritas I have to make sure to really clamp down on holder but after awhile it become second nature and something I can live with.
Hmm, I've been rumbled. Most of my planes are copies, bought second hand. Most of my woodworking consists of copies of things I've seen in books, magazines or occasionally online. Can you guess what watch I wear? 😉
@@faceedgewoodworking Nearly right! Watches, cars, tools not interested in brands really, as long as they work reliably and at a reasonable price. Hence Sekonda or Casio watch and Stanley & Record planes.
13:25. You hit the nail on the head (so to speak)! I really appreciate channels like this.
Thanks! New videos to follow, been busy with home improvements!
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯Spot on!!!!
If anyone of those people who make arguments about which brand is best. If they cannot identify to us which boards were planed with which brand hand plane then they need to just shut up and keep using the tools they use and we’ll keep using the tools we use to get to the same results. “A well built piece of furniture.”
If it removes the wood from where you need it removed then it has done it’s job.
Great video sir!!!
Keep’em coming.
Thank you! It's only my opinion though.
@@faceedgewoodworking I agree with your opinion though. It’s mine too
@@uriel-heavensguardian8949 👌thank you.
I think you have to credit your fellow countryman, Paul Sellers for router popularity. He showed how it easy to get good fitting tenons and just generally how to use tool that was not fully appreciated at the time. Since watching his instructions I can't remember last time I used an electric one, which I have never been fond of anyway.
Hi Jim. Ah, good point! Showing the versatility of the tool is certainly going to boost the uptake. As mentioned in the video, I haven't previously used one all that much. I can certainly see the potential benefits of it.
I agree. Paul himself has said the router plane was not popular among woodworkers when he was a young apprentice, at least not for the many uses he puts them to. Seems to me that he's found many uses for the tool and has passed that along to "the masses". Truly a unique man in his skill and outlook.
@@chadlewis3515 he's contributed a great deal.
I think you're spot on with this. Paul Sellers has a number of routers hanging off his tool cupboard and then the price shoots up. Now a Preston router will set you back £500 or £600.
@@twcmaker that's some serious influence!
I absolutely agree with you about lifting expensive tools over affordable ones. For me personally, having no practical learning experience and teaching myself everything from TH-cam and various articles, it took buying a better, ready to use plane to figure how they are supposed to perform. While I knew in theory how a sole should be flat, how to set a chip breaker, how to adjust things, it did not click until I got one. After that I was able to force a newly made cheapo stanley no. 4 with plastic handles into a working, fine shaving condition, couldnt do that before if my life depended on it. Affordable things can work great, for me it was the know how that took the most time and nowadays, my most used planes are wooden ones, albeit with horridly adjustable chipbreakers, they are still my favourite tools to use.
Thanks Petr. This is a really valuable comment as it speaks of real experience. I'm glad a quality tool was a springboard to refining tools and making the step over to wooden planes which are severely underrated.
@@faceedgewoodworking That they are. I'm lucky that mine are locally made, very cheap and with quite good steel. Although i cannot understand why they use a bent piece of steel for a a chip breaker. Usually the chip breaker would be a flat piece with a bend at the very edge close to the blade. These ones are bent across their entire length, which means that when you tighten them they move around like crazy. I doubt that it would be so expensive to make the right way and this the only serious downside for me.
@@petrsidlo7614 that's interesting. Do you have any images of the planes on-line?
@@faceedgewoodworking I tried posting the link twice, something doesnt work.
@@petrsidlo7614 no worries, thanks for trying.
Hi, I like the way you put this over, personally I think there's too much pressure and hype on all consumables these days, from cars to cornflakes it doesn't matter, and the way the sales pitch is thrown at us can make the viewer, or reader feel inferior,or lacking someway if he doesn't buy this latest product,I've been guilty myself of being lured into parting whith hard earned cash at some woodworking show after watching a slick demonstration of some new tool, only to find out later it didn't do any better job in my own workshop than a tool I had already , well we live and learn, an old quote states, That fancy fishing tackle catches more fishermen than fish, and this is very true when it comes to tools and gadgets, I suppose some people are never satisfied unless they own the best of everything, and that's ok because their spending keeps industry going, to supply us mere mortals whith items that we can afford, and still do a good job for us, and let's face it the everyday stanley plane, maples chisel, to name but two will outlive several lifetimes of diy, amateur woodworking use if looked after. Many thanks for another interesting video mate, stay safe, best wishe's to you and your's, Stuart UK
Hi Stuart's, thank you for the comment! Yeah, the FOMO can be pretty overwhelming at times. Thankfully there is information out there showing that basic but well made tools are completely up to the job.
Have a good evening Sir!
Hongdui produces the JKM router plane and you can get theirs on aliexpress at an even higher price point (I don't know which one was first).
Thanks David. It's more on Ali?! That's good info. Not something I would look to at such a high price. I'd say the Veritas is the safer bet.
I have a vintage Record 071. In the past 6 years I used it once. On a different note, I wonder why the Preston pattern did not become more popular. Its design always made more sense to me. Record chose Preston's design for their shoulder planes. I wonder why they did not do the same with their router planes. Yeah, in the words of George Carlin, that's the kind of sh that keeps me up at night
Good question. I think the Preston casting might be a bit more difficult than the Stanley derivatives. I think Walke Moore Tools had a mare making their version.
@@faceedgewoodworking Yeah, I had forgotten about them, I guess they did not light the world on fire with that router either. At one point I was seriously considering ordering a dozen bases laser-cut from mild steel and making a small batch of router planes at home. Paul Sellers beat me to it with his wooden router planes :D
I thought Wood River was Rob Cosmnas planes and they were made in Canada??
Also, my first hand plane was a gift from a friend not too long ago, it is a Woden #4 and says it's made In England, are those good planes?
No! They are made in China. WoodCraft sells them in the US. Not available in the UK anymore. Quangsheng is available in the UK. That's pretty much a WoodRiver. Luban, JUMA, as I understand are all from the same Chinese factory. They are a good option for some.
Sorry, The Woden. Gold, absolute Gold. Learn how to use it, tool for life 👍
@@faceedgewoodworking Wow. thank you for that information. I am a little let down with Rob now. He should specify that they are made in China, Rob sells them off his site and always talks big about them and makes it sound as if they are made in Canada, I assumed Rob was part owner.
I was going to buy one when I made a big purchase on a plane, I was planning on buying a high end number 5. I currently have the Woden 4, a Stanly Handyman and a #4 Stanley. The 2 Stanly's I bought came with a #5 that has no name on it but the blade and chip breaker are not the right size, I assume that because I need the frog to be very far back or he blade sits below the mouth even with the adjuster all the way in.
I think I will spend some time and try and really clean up the Woden I was given since you said it was a good plane. It feels great in my hand, I just think it needs some tlc. I have 2 months of wood work under my belt so im going through a major learning curve.
I really appreciate the reply's and the effort you put into responding to your followers. I have really enjoyed your take on things and will continue to check out your back catalogue of videos. Subbed and looking forward to more.
@@viracocha03 no worries! I don't know how often Rob highlights where WoodRiver is made. I suppose in this day and age, unless someone specifically says it's made domestically it's probably made in China.
Depending on your access to tools, a vintage No.4 like your Woden, along with a similar quality No.5 will have you well set.
Don't be in a rush with anything. Woodworking at home is a pretty straightforward thing to do. My enemy is time!
Thanks for the sub 👍
Another great video ! I have a mix of stanley\bailey and Veritas. and although I prefer the looks and function of the Veritas, my refurbed plains work great.
On the Kitty Moses comment, it's crazy how people just gobble up what ever he is hawking that day. As arrogant as he is, he used to put out some decent Vids, but now its all infomercials. I have a Veritas router plane, and like you said I don't use it often... But glad I have it when I need it :)
I have to disagree on the marking gauges a bit.... , I have two wooden gauges. first was a junky amazon knock off. hated it, and later bought I beautiful old British rosewood and brass gauge with double pins for mortises. Beautiful piece, but it had the same problem as the amazon junk. I find the pins tend to jump around quite a bit when marking. Am I doing something wrong ? After using a finds Veritas, with the metal cutting wheel rather then the pins, I bought one of those and its my go to :/ any tips on tuning up or using the pin based gauges would be appreciated !
Sounds like you have a great selection of tools there G. You're right to acknowledge how well the classic Bailey's work.
I understand why KM is doing his thing. He wants to make money. That's absolutely fine. He works hard on his presentations. I only know of the router plane video but some of the claims he made in the video were odd to say the least.
At the end of the day, if you get on better with the wheel gauges that's perfectly fine. I'm very familiar with the pin style and would be happy to share a few tips. Watch out for a short video soon!
Hi Graham nice video I owned a couple of the Chinese planes my mate had some lie neilson planes he could not believe how good the Chinese planes worked . Today I think the tool company has such good marketing and no how to sell a tool take the lie neilson all they did was upgrade to a thicker iron and cap iron and tell people stanley planes no good you need a big chunky iron well am not sold on it I am a huge user and fan of wooden planes they work as good as any metal plane . When I see the keyboard woodworkers spouging there must buy premium tools well I say go look at period furniture and houses 🏘. Great video
Hi Peter. Thanks for watching! There can be no doubt, from what I've seen, the Chinese made planes are very capable performers. From my hands on experience with the nice stuff it is simply that. Practical tools, made with pride to high tolerances. I think that's why I grabbed the watch analogy. Unless you're a diver, do you need a Rolex Submariner to tell the time or will a CASIO or Seiko do the same job.
I love the Lie-Nielsen gear, I'd love to have one at some point. But it won't make the wood any smoother than a good Stanley.
You can only pee with what you got the modern planes I find to heavy I bought a no 3 and no 5 Clifton from a local guy great tools but heavy sold them on .has the postman been to your workshop yet if not he be there tomorrow. I have a record t5 I put a new iron in it I got from ebay from Axminster rider plane iron a bit thicker than stanley hold an edge no 4 size £7 posted
@@petertiffney4413 that's a good price for a replacement iron! No box yet Peter, I'm sure the postie will be along soon 👍
I'm having lots of fun buying old tools, it's nice to discover gems, restore stuff to use able condition and make it look good. I'm not too bothered about resale value when I buy it cheap and put in my time and effort. Tools are meant to be used, so making it fit for use is what I intend :) If it looks better after I'm done that's an added bonus 😀 I try to buy what seems to be old quality, but mostly it's for the nostalgic feel / look some of it has. And to be fair 25 euros spent now on something new doesn't get me the same quality after I've invested some time in a 25 euros old tool. It's a hobby so I don't care about the time=money mindset. If anything, it keeps me at home where I don't spend more money😂
Hi Daniel. It can be an education and just good fun getting old tools working well. Being prepared to put some time in has certainly helped me gain some insight. Thanks for sharing your experience.
@faceedgewoodworking thank you for your videos and sharing it all! For me the buying and restoring is also partially due to not having lots of space for woodworking. So it keeps me busy doing mostly quiet stuff and (very) slowly getting tools together for cheap until housing prices are alright or I find a partner to buy a house with with some extra space haha! For now a Workmate will do haha.
@@danielh12345 hey, no worries. I appreciate your kind feedback. That's a great attitude to have. It'll come. When it does you'll be well kitted out!
Another way to be “unique” is to do a modern improved version of a vintage tool that had a different design. For example most router planes are copies/improvements on a Stanley 71. The Walke Moore router plane is a modern improved version of a Preston router plane. That makes it unique in the modern router plane market. So you don’t need to invent something 100% new, just pick something more unique to avoid competing on price alone.
Absolutely. I know it's cheaper to do a copy and paste and that's not so bad if it's an old design. It just leaves me cold when modern stuff is just copied.
18:18 it just like the people who claim wooden planes are hard to adjust or don't work easily and they work fine I prefer them now over metal planes except from my old infill planes
Yup, Bailey's are super easy to use and the default choice. But wooden planes are a joy 👍
Tyzack tools made a wheel Marking Gauge back in the 50s or 60s i worked with a old guy who use one all the time
Thanks for that. Stanley made some too in the early 20th century.
The Stanley no97 was a cracking marking gauge. Cutting wheel and it didn't roll off the bench. Veritas missed a trick there.
Thank you for yet another really good topic and your valuable opinion. I enjoy your format and the candor with which you present your thoughts. Kind Regards from Pakistan and God bless.
Hi Soofi. Lovely to think someone is watching in Pakistan. Sorry about the 🏏 in December, we seemed to hit a good run of form. Keep well!
Getting back onto the topic of the video isn't Lie Neilson guilty of the same transgression as Wood River? The bedrock patents expired in (guess) 1940, so the design is available for copy-cat manufacturers to exploit (some would say develop). I suppose the big difference is that Stanley stopped production long before Lie Neilson got into the act, while Wood River etc just decided they wanted a piece of the LN pie. I don't have a problem with that really.
Hi Richard. It's a tricky one. I would say Lie-Nielsen without reservation chose the Bedrock layout and didn't change the silhouette or proportions. They did however change materials and raise quality along with a few tweaks. I'm a fan of theirs, excellent product!
I do understand how hurt they must have felt when Chinese options became available. But as mentioned in the vid, I don't think it harmed Lie-Nielsen at all. They seem to go from strength to strength.
You can't tell from a picture. My #3 - #7 are old stanleys. I have a Siegly combo (like the #45) and a Veritas Small Plow. The Siegly can do more (dadoes) but when I need grooves, I reach for the Veritas. The feel, adjustments are refined and a bit easier to use. If I had gotten the Siegly 1st, I would not have bought the Veritas. Its worth the difference. The premium planes feel better & have better ergonomics and its subtle. ex. A plastic handle often has a seam under your palm. The cheap one you would feel it. The premium will have it buffed out. It probably angles differently so its better when you're pushing it for hours. To get that shape moulded might need a more expensive process or non standard machine that the others either won't do or didn't know why the shape matters.
Hi Tom. The Veritas plough looks like a nice tool. I think I'm right in saying that it was inspired by the late Record plough, but don't quote me on that.
I very much enjoy the new stuff, it's top notch. But I'm still a devotee of the Bailey and Wooden planes. Perhaps it's just familiarity?
I've definitely removed flash from plastic. It's a pretty straightforward process. Making wooden handles is certainly within reach for woodworkers too.
@@faceedgewoodworking Someone did a nice comparison to the Record (44?) and another smaller plow (Rapier). The conclusion is the Veritas is smoother, easier and feels good in the hand. When I was starting, a fellow woodworker brought in 3 chisels. Narex (their Richter wasn't out yet), Veritas and Lie Neilsen. Just holding them, the Lie Neilsen felt perfect. I think its an exact copy of the Stanley 750 (650?). IMO it was worth twice the $$ of the others. I ended up buying Pfeil bench chisels. The price/feel is *my* sweet spot. But the Lie Neilsen is better if you want to spend it.
The original vendors filed a patent & got a gov't sponsored monopoly on that design until it expired. Then its fair game for anyone to copy. That's the whole point of patents - to encourage sharing of designs. A good example is 3M's cubitron II mesh sanding pads. They had to wait until Mirka's patent on mesh sanding to come out with them. They also had the pattern difference (which I think they patented) but they couldn't come out with it earlier w/o violating Mirka's patent. Its possible 3M had to hold off on bringing out their additional innovation because of that. Its possible 3M's innovation was hindered by the patent in other words. I'm not against copies of expired patents. Then the vendors can build the same thing, but they will still have differences in quality, customer service, and production ability.
@@TomBuskey I completely agree with you. Patents work well, especially for large corporations that can defend them. I would imagine it's very difficult for a smaller player to pay all the development costs and make something that functions properly. Only to have it copied overseas. I have no idea how much development costs Vs copying but I imagine development is exponentially more expensive.
Bravo! Well said!
Thanks! Looking forward to seeing those Union planes 👍
👏👏👏
Post WWII in western nations the marketing became “when you own this tool you will magically be a master at the craft”. Now it’s over the top. Packout tool cases. Gizmosity wins over practical. It’s not the tool, it’s how you use it. As for stanley, the company bought out its competitors, plunged cash into marketing and mastered the growing industrialization of the late 19th c and early 20th c.
Yes! The marketing is pretty insidious. A few good tools and a bit of practice gets you sorted. Stanley was certainly set on dominance.
I've never seen a copycat product manufactured in China that was as good as the copied product. Having said that, China is where a manufacturer goes to have inexpensive products made so they can be sold inexpensively. Much of the inferiority in Chinese products is built in by retailers wanting to sell cheap product. China could produce a Lie-Nielsen copy that is every bit as good as the real thing, but who would want to pay for that? it may not end up being as expensive as an LN, but it would be a lot more that a Wood River; I liked your "Seiko at Rolex prices" analogy. The rest, in my opinion, is semantics over what is and what is not smart when it comes to manufacturing and selling something.
Having tested a WoodRiver 5 1/2 some years ago I can attest to them being very high quality. I didn't have a LN to contrast it against but no woodworker would find fault. I do however agree that for most retailers, cutting out a few nice features but keeping the look is a way to earn easier money.
@@faceedgewoodworking Well, I can't say much about Wood River planes because, outside of fooling around at a Woodcraft store, I haven't used one. Dangerous thing, talking about tools you haven't used. However, I have listened to the pundits. The planes have had several redesigns/improvements over the years to fix genuine problems. Kudos to Woodcraft for sticking with it and continually improving the product. At least they're interested in listening to folks and giving them the product they want. A better example of "build it cheap overseas" would be the reissue Stanley Sweetheart planes. I own several........ don't buy one.
@@chadlewis3515 yeah. I tried the SW range. They do a job but are wide of the mark.
We design in the US and build products in China. Started as a company that wanted to make good quality products, but ended up degrading our line over the past few years simply because the consumer dollar had spoken. They just unilaterally go for the cheapest priced in most cases. For us, downgrading the quality is not about making more profit. It's about being in business or not. So we have a sign up the wall these days that said "Do Not Over Engineer". But the thing is, we don't think we were over engineering in the past. We were just doing the right thing. It made us really sad in a way
Ah yes, the whole tool snob thing. I watched a video where a guy was carrying on about squares being out less than 0.0005" for woodworking. I'm sorry but what's he building? I have some absolutely horrible squares and they're all square enough for anything I'm ever going to do. I'm in the do more with less camp myself. Once you've reached a certain level of performance what you have can do the job. More isn't going to be much better then either. It's past the point of diminishing returns. We all need to develop better skills. That's what takes you over the top. Master the basics with simple gear. The chisel, the hammer, the saw and the plane. If it fits it ships.
Ah, the engineer woodworker. Nothing wrong with that but it's a pretty sterile life. Judging what's appropriate for the task in hand is very much a skill to be developed.
This has been the most annying debat to have in my own head, on one hand the mechanism of the Katz-Moses plane does make it different and I don't really care that much that it was made in china so it's not really a big deal. I still wouldn't buy it because I already have the Veritas and I'm not really a fan of Katz-Moses. On the other, it does piss me off, not because it has some common features but like you said if they just made it look more unique then there wouldn't even be a debate happening. I think it was just lazy on the part of Katz-Moses because he did come up with a unique router plane mechanism but then just grabbed another companies body without changing a thing. It would've be so simple to have a more round shape or more square or even just change the colors...
🍻 Yup! Katz-Moses seems like a hard working guy, I wish him well. I don't follow him aside from becoming aware of the router plane. You can also get it from Ali-Express and Dictum without his branding. My hunch is the router is a white label product that can be attributed to anyone who wants to hawk it.
As with you, my bugbear is that it's presentation is lazy. It wouldn't be difficult for "the greatest tool maker of our time" 🤣🤢 to make the design their own.
I also have Veritas, features I liked at time of purchase, availability ( compared to original) craftsmanship, cutter sharpening, availability of different cutters, warranty. Not to say the original wasn't good but you never sure what you will get buying used online and missing cutter and parts. Katz Moses design of the base and handle is a blatant rip of of Veritas and I can understand the frustration in some one copying your original design. As far as the adjuster/holding on Katz Moses design he went after the biggest complaint on Veritas design. But by copying the Veritas design he wasted whatever benefit was created in my book. Yes on my Veritas I have to make sure to really clamp down on holder but after awhile it become second nature and something I can live with.
Hmm, I've been rumbled. Most of my planes are copies, bought second hand. Most of my woodworking consists of copies of things I've seen in books, magazines or occasionally online. Can you guess what watch I wear? 😉
Seiko 😂😂😂
@@faceedgewoodworking Nearly right! Watches, cars, tools not interested in brands really, as long as they work reliably and at a reasonable price. Hence Sekonda or Casio watch and Stanley & Record planes.
@@richardsinger01 I adore the CASIO F91W. For most people anything above it, is merely art.
Your Veritas low angle, put a PMV-11 iron on it, it is night and day difference
Thanks Duncan. I'm interested to try the plane. The handle feels very uncomfortable and the weight bias is hugely to the front.