Made it all the way to #25 So many great points you made. So many folks like to pose trying to look pro, makes me sick-lol. I’m rocking a rim brake bike with gp5000’s, latex/butyl tubes with a touch of baby power on 30mm alloy wheels. Easy and simple Great video sir🙏🔥
Well said Grauch. Do one for disk brakes. I dislike the bike industry tries to change or make the trend and forces this changes upon us. Tubes and rim brakes I keep.😇
@@joieDeVivreDesi I could not agree more about discs. Especially on steep descents in the rain! In those conditions, rim brakes barely work at all. Even my Magura hydraulics struggle, and Magura makes the best rim brakes on the planet. My next bike is definitely going to be specced with discs. Cheers
George, I agree with you as new is not always better. As someone who has ridden steel bikes for the last 30 years I struggle buying into all the marketing hype generated by bike companies to sell products. Bikes should be simple. I do like the new mechanical group sets and I do have a carbon disc gravel bike but my favorite bike is my current road bike which is a DeRosa steel frame bike with Campagnolo 12 speed Chorus with rim brakes and standard tube tires. Too bad Im on the East Coast because I would love to visit your shop. My kind of bike shop!
Actually I still run tubular, even on the latest rims - and simply love it. It serves me well since the 90s never having any punctures. Awesome for road & cyclocross. But for my boys and lady - using tubes, they‘re happy - no ugly sealant and no tube change takes longer than 3min.
Excellent video George with so many salient points. I also ride over ten thousand miles annually so I've had my share of mishaps. You raise so many valid issues with tubeless and of course given your experience you have seen firsthand much of what can and often does go wrong. On my gravel bike this past year I have been running tubeless. We do a lot of adventure tours on mixed road surfaces and so far I've been fortunate to have suffered only minor issues. But I can easily see where you could be stranded in some remote location and have a major headache if you can't unseat your tire, or struggle to get a tube inside without pinching. My biggest fear is suffering a flat and being unable to unseat or reseat the tire in the middle of nowhere. Thanks for offering such honest and valuable advice given your extensive experience with the many challenges cyclists can expect when going tubeless.
Thank You Brian! It is definitely a thing not being able to brake the bead of a tubeless tire off of a tubeless rim. Depending on just the right (read wrong) combination it is impossible to remove the tire. I have had to cut the tire off of a few rims here in the shop. For people that ride as much as we do it would be awesome if tubeless would work as advertised. Another example of things that don’t work for people who ride a lot - chain waxing through immersion hot wax. Who really has the time to fuss with all that nonsense when for it to last 250-300km? That’s not even a week of riding for me and my crew. Regardless how ineffective drip lube/wax may be it surely beats swapping out waxed chains 2X a week!
Great video George. I have been using tubeless road tech for 8+ years and have experienced almost all the issues you have raised. The 'hit and miss' nature is the most frustrating aspect. A successful setup, and the positive aspects of tubeless are present (a genuine control that compares with tubed clincher performance over tyre life would help here) but there are a number of recurrent issues. Setup is often challenging due to rim/tyre compatibility inconsistency. The need for specialised and relatively expensive materials such as valves, sealant, tubeless tape (correctly installed) and the possible need to use a compressor or air tank floor pump make the process challenging for the home mechanic. Also, there seem to be failure issues with sealant and plugs at pressures over 60 psi, often necessitating the insertion of a tube, thus defeating the advantages inherent in tubeless technology. My current process is to try for a successful initial successful tubeless setup but cut losses and insert a tube so that I can maximise riding time. The industry has a way to go with road tubeless!
Thank You for watching David. Hit and miss has been my experience for 14 years. People think I just started using it and poo poo the idea. No I’ve used it since inception and ridden literally over 100,000 miles on it.
The best video I've ever seen dispelling all the marketing BS we see from channels like GCN etc. Your point number 19 is spot on I've said many times "if it isn't broken ............I ride many miles in the gritty lanes were I live in Cheshire, UK and haven't had a puncture in over 3 years. Mavic alloys, butyl tubes, Vredestein Fortezza Senso 23 mm tyres (Tires US) Oh, and rim brakes!
Purchased a gravel bike, first upgrade I made was get rid of the tubeless system. Beyond me how people deal with that crap. Been chainging/patching tubes for 40+ years, simple, easy, predictable. Thanks for the video, it was entertaining to see what you have had to go through in your shop.
Yep tubeless works great for dirt! Gravel at below 40 psi and MTB at below 30 psi. Road tubeless will eventually get there when the sealant works above 70 psi
Love the Grouch. I agree I’m changing to tubed tires and leaving the sealant behind. By the way I’m ordering a pair of jet rc hed wheels. I called and dropped your name with them and they said they will send you a t shirt. Thanks for the recommendation
You make a lot of very good points. I'm open to both sides of the argument, but for me - I see the pros and cons of both setups based on my observations of people I ride with. Me, personally, I haven't had a puncture that I've known about in all 4 years I've been riding on tubeless. Meanwhile my friends are regularly puncturing or getting pinch flats and are replacing tubes on their rides, sometimes more than once. A strong argument to use tubes if you're super-obsessed weight weenie, or if running extremely high pressures. However, they have additional weight of saddle bag, spare tubes or tubes, pump or CO2, tyre levers, etc. I just carry a CO2 in my pocket. At most I'd just add to that a plug. So weight savings balance out somewhat. Now we have wider tyres and lower pressures due to this (even on hooked rims) tubeless has better chance of sealing more often. Me - I'm staying with tubeless until it completely and utterly fails me.
I must be a retro-grouch too! I am agreeing with you on so many points! My foray into tubeless this weekend resulted in questions like, 'Why am I doing this? This is a mess...I only have 1 or 2 flats a year...What do I need this for? I can manage tubes (and even tubulars!) easier and faster. I wish I would've never even tried it. Your best point though...'They're creating a solution for a problem that doesn't exist'. Thank you for confirming my initial thoughts.
Many good points here from a committed tubeless rider. I have found that once I discovered a good rim and tyre combination stick with it. Riding on minor roads in England we have lots of thorns in the Autumn Hegecutting season and flints all year round. We all get punctures. With tubeless try to plug the hole early so the tyre does not deflate. For big holes I use stans Darts and for small holes take one petal from a stans Dart and insert with a small allen key. In 6 years and about 40000 kilometer I have not needed an inner tube yet and I ride on summer tyres. It can be done but does need some thought. Enjoy the ride whichever system your on.
I've watched the whole video and you make some very valid points. Also, nice specs. I disagree slightly with your last point about tubeless and MTB. I came across your video when I was looking for consolation after spending 4 hours of my life cleaning old rim tape and sealant form my wheel . 1 wheel. Still have the other to go. What happened is that I went to my bike after 6 weeks of not riding it due to being away for work. The temperature here never went above 21 C during these 6 weeks. Anyway. Two flats. No sign of punctures. I inflated. Didn't hold air. Noticed a leak at the valve stem.... yadayada... there I was dealing with a mess instead of riding my bike on a a nice free afternoon. Wouldn't have had to deal with this sh*t if I had tubes on. I can change a tube in about 10 mins max and I've suffered 2 pinch flats in 30 years of riding a bike. Both were on commuter road bikes and both were avoidable had I been paying attention. So, this all got me thinking: a scenario where I get a pinch flat on my MTB is likely going to cause some other catastrophic failure on a tubeless setup. Which means I'd have to insert a tube as a fix anyway. I would hate to have to deal with that mess out in the woods. Bottom line? I'm going back to Tubes with inserts: relatively puncture proof, less messy, and more reliable than tubeless, and can be ridden flat if you're really in a pickle. I'll add that anyone concerned about adding 500g on a ~100kg mud-caked MTB and amateur rider, can't be taken seriously.
😁 25 done and dusted, and agree 100%, I went down that road and now I'm on TPU tubes, best thing ever for road bikes. As for valves for tubeless (mtb), I highly recommend the Fillmore valves. No more clogging, much more air flow....fabulous.
Right there with you on all points George. Thank you for being the voice of reason. I'm not a roadracer and think it's absurd to need or want what roadracers have. I rarely get punctures because I don't care about speed. I ride a custom lugged steel frame/fork on 650c×23 clinchers/tubes. I only weigh around 125lb and only air up 60-75lb. With lower pressure and a bit of spring in the chassis 6 hrs in the saddle is easy and enjoyable.
Already Subscribed. Correction: I will be building a wheelset for sewups because I've been wanting to try them and can still get Conti Sprinter for 650c
You already had me convinced with the last video on this subject haha! Sticking to tried and tested...No idea how to put a little smiley face, but please imagine that I have.
Point 9, I thought about going tubeless so I bought a tubeless compatible Shimano Ultegra front wheel to test it out. At the time in 2015 I had GP4000S tires so I was going to run them out then try tubeless. First day I try and put a GP4000S tire on the rim with a tube. God damn it took twenty five minutes to do something that usually takes thirty seconds putting the last few inches of bead up and over the rim. I'd used GP4000S tires for years and was totally familiar with how they mounted on multiple rims and those the difficulty to mount them was insane, I bought a lube from Schwalbe specifically for this but after that I vowed never to go tubeless for road.
Great video, many valid points! The streets of Portland Oregon are full of broken glass so for me tubless has helped prevent having to stop to make repairs during my commute. But I do agree can be a pain at times. Thanks for the videos!!
Thank You for watching! If your commute is filled with land mines may I suggest Gatorskin Hardshells or Schwable Marathon Plus tires and still running tubes.
You forgot 26, you can buy removable valve tubes and put sealant in either before you leave home or after you get a puncture with a silicon tube. Less mess as the tube holds the sealant and you use the sealant as required. No cleaning dried sealant, just put a new tube in. And yes sealant does works in a tube as well.
🙂 25 makes the most sense. As for the rest, I have 24 reasons not to experiment on my road bike with something that was going to waste so much of my precious time. Thanks for the heads up and much appreciated 🙏 👍 ✌
I wish I had known about all this before purchasing all the supplies to go tubeless. I watched countless cycling channels and most (not all) tout the benefits of going tubeless. It took me about three hours to get my back wheel set up tubeless only to get sprayed with sealant when I pushed in the sidewall by hand to verify the bead was secure. It was then that I heard a booming voice in my head that said, "It was at that moment he knew...he f***ed up!". I lost all confidence in the integrity of the tubeless setup. So I cleaned everything up, reinstalled a tube, and put everything I purchased in the supplies cabinet probably never to be used. This video is an outstanding discussion as to why going tubeless is not all it's cracked up to be.
Great video. I made it through all 25 points and I agree with you. I ride Conti 5000s with latex tubes. It's the best combination as the ride quality is as good as tubulars. Honestly, I can't tell the difference. By the way, about those damn dimples on my Firecrest wheels - seems to me that they make no difference whatsoever. Do you think Zipp will refund my money as that was their big selling point and I got hooked in? I just feel like a fool with a big sucker sticker on my head!! But the industry won't hook me in twice - no tubeless tires for me -thanks to your video.
Schwalbe ones!! My first tubeless set up was this tire with a set of carbon November Rail wheels…just for “fun” I got curious about how hard the tries would be to take off after a flat so I tried to dismount the tire….I couldn’t get the tire off one side of the rim -on both wheels- even with pliers! I had to send them back to November…the owner of the wheel company had to cut the tires of the wheel! Schwalbe blamed November and November blamed schwalbe. Either way I was out shopping both ways and the tires that only had a couple hundred miles on them
Point 5- I experience my valves leaking for a few seconds after I remove my pump chuck. This is on my gravel bike with 40min in them…a little annoying. I do worry about how much build up of sealant gets into my floor pump down the road.
My winspace hypers with gp5000 tlr hav me been good…no flats this season in Michigan. Easy on and off…I do worry it will be a mess to flat out on the road though….what if you don’t top off your sealent! I’ve also had many ride mates batteries die in the electronic shifting bikes…that’s my retro grouch for the day
Great video, 40 years experience riding, racing. I own 18 bikes right now and only my Mtn bike is tubeless. An extra point, safety, have a road tubeless burp on a descent, not fun. New subscriber.
I have had it with tubeless tyres and have gone back to tubes and havent regretted it at all . Its more of headache and nuisence to setup and maintain and the sealents arent that great and the tyres dont help too. The mess it makes when it goes over you and bike its a pain in the ass. Good video George.
Hi George, I enjoyed your rant and agree with a lot of what you said. I run latex tubes and clincher on my Colnago as they perform and the best option for racing for sure. On my ritchey run tubeless as in my opinion they perform the role of go anywhere tyre and give me more confidence on road and gravel. It was a learning curve at first but after a few years am very happy with them. Most of my friends won't go near tubeless but I just smile and wait patiently while they repair their flats. I have had 2 times where the sidewall has cut and needed to use a tube, both on gravel and my friends didn't see it because they don't ride on gravel incase they puncture.
I recall first hearing about tubeless tires and about the sealant specifically and thinking to myself “This is too messy/complicated for me,”. I actually tried Mavic’s UST system and can say it was the best tubeless system. It was designed to work with or without sealant with their tires.
You make lots of good points. There are lots of legitimate drawbacks. I think it comes down to how flat-prone people's area is. In Portland, OR, there's not only glass and construction debris on the side of the roads but the city spreads crushed rocks instead of road salt in the winter. It's flat-tastic. Winter group rides are a joke - can't make it 10 miles without another flat in the bunch. I switched to tubeless on my road bike 4-5 years ago and it's been a total game changer. I think I've had 2 flats in 4 years (one sealed, one had to be plugged). That said, if I tear a sidewall or otherwise can't plug a leak, I know I'll have to Uber home. There's no chance in hell I can remove that tire to insert a tube. I don't even carry a tube anymore (multiple CO2's instead).
Bicycle King George I presume, you have nothing to apologize for as far as your bicycle content is concerned. The longer the movie the better. In my opinion your channel's content is superb and your on screen mannerism is delightful to experience. Yes! Tubeless bicycle tires are an over pressurized money and mess making fiasco. 🤮 makes me vommit my stash. What works for my ride is; 29"X3" plus size tires with inner tubes, and the tubes are holding flat attack puncture sealant. This system works well for my application.
Thanks for watching! I appreciate your kind words. I know people like long format videos. I like to feel that I am having a conversation with someone when I do my videos. Tubeless road just isn’t there yet
Im a noob. 6yrs ago started out riding occasionally on an old Trek 9spd dura ace 5500 with alloy wheels with tubes. I road very little perhaps 3 to 5 hundred miles a year. I had maybe a flat a year sometimes two. My truck broke down in December of 2023. I road that bike everywhere for a month and racked up my yearly milage in a couple weeks. I had three flats in that time. One flat I had at night in the rain I was unable to fix with my two spares as both had tinny holes. That was my worst flat. I walked 8 miles home in the rain rolling my bike on the front tire. A week later that bike was totaled due to a road rage incident. The situation lead to me buying a new giant TCR with hookless tubeless carbon rims and disc brakes. I was new to the whole setup coming from a bike that was 20yrs old. I was a little intimidated after hearing my local bike mechanic talk about the complexity of it. Nonetheless I purchased the new bike with a power meter and computer. I never had any of these metric devices before. I fell quickly in love with riding the new bike and following my performance stats was fun and interesting. 1000 miles into riding I noticed several needles from radial tires that had imbedded themselves into my tires. These were the cause of all of my flats on my tube tires in the past. The tubeless tire was unaffected. It would not even affect the tire pressure. I was riding 80 to 90lbs for the first 1k miles. after another 1k of miles I got a real flat while doing a small 30m ride didn't notice it until I got home and saw the sealant on my seat tube. it was piled up all in one spot mostly, like one big glob. Idk if this is the right thing to do but I routinely clean my bike with rubbing alcohol. It cleaned the sealant up quite easily and repaired the tire with bacon strips and continued to ride with no issue. A week later I set off on my first century nearly at the top of my first climb I flatted. Stupidly I had not refilled the sealant. I tried plugging the tire with bacon strips and was unable to sufficiently stop the leak. I had a spare tube and began removing the tire. After some struggles I managed to "fix it" I finished the century with a tire that wasn't seated correctly and consequently I was extremely conservative on all of my descents. The next day I bought a new tire, my local mechanic gave me two new bottles of sealant and I installed the new tire at home with a floor pump. It was pretty easy with just a little mess from perhaps cutting the hole in the bottle two big. Valve core works fine tire works great. way less faffing around than my tube tires. Didn't need to buy new valves or rim tape which actually come with every new tubeless wheel set Ive seen. I learned that I need a quality plug repair kit, co2 is nice to have on me, and to keep sealant in my tires after a legitimate hole. Also my area has rough roads with large cracks in a lot of places. Larger tires with tubeless tires at lower pressure is a game changer for me. I know I'm just a dumb noob but I think with anything new theres a learning curve and a way to do thing correctly without creating more problems. Im curious to see how my tubeless saga plays out rolling forward.
Great countdown. May I add more retrogrouching on aero. Body drag is much more important than bike drag. So if going > 30kph, holding a position with the head+shoulders even just 1"-2" lower will be worth more than any $ one could possible spend on bike aero. To the weight room for core and flexibility instead.
I completely agree!! Body drag accounts for 87% of the total system. It’s ridiculous the silly stuff people worry about when they are over weight and poorly positioned on their bike. Thanks for watching
I watched till the end.....🙂 1st I need to say that I have been using inner tubes since I was a little kid. Now, regarding John and the 4 hrs bike designed for the PROs, the analogy I give to people every time they talk about a "Super aero bike" is.... why do I need to buy the latest scientific calculator to perform only the basic mathematical operations (+ - × ÷)?, it is nonsense to do so because I will never use that scientific calculator for what it was really designed for.... But in general, I think the reasons for buying unnecessary bikes/accessories/etc. are: for show off and/or that people are victims of the marketing hype. 🤷♂️
I personally own and ride GP5000 and HED Ardennes Black wheels. They are just fine to install. See video My Ritchey Road Logic - steel rim brake Video 2 of 2 sub 17 lbs th-cam.com/video/3gWt9BVYQWY/w-d-xo.html
Made it through 25. I used tubeless for my road bike this year, but I did not have a puncture. For point 3, I used the Filmore valves to avoid value clogs. I recently got a new wheelset and I've been debating if I should use tubes or go tubeless again. I'm leaning towards tubes for ease. I understand latex tubes need to be inflated before every ride, which is not a big deal. If I use latex tubes on a long ride (say 100 miles), should I be concerned about the loss of air pressure during the ride?
Thank you so much for making it through all 25 points! I’m curious how a Filmore valve keeps the valve core from clogging. Not the main valve the valve core the very tip of it. You should be airing up before every ride anyway. That’s just what you do. You won’t have any depreciable air loss with latex tubes over 100 miles or longer. Ever notice how after a pit stop you come back to your bike and you have a flat? You got that miles ago but because you were riding it didn’t lose pressure - until you stopped.
Ouch! You hit a sore point when you talked about not being able to remove the valve nut. This happened to me on a mountain bike tubeless setup, and took me 30 minutes to figure out that I could get it loose using my multi-tool in a way that I'm sure is legal only in two states. Since then I 3D printed a bunch of valve nut removal tools, they literally weigh one gram, and are on both of my tubeless mtn bikes. I guess road and mtn are different, but tubeless for mtn bikes is final proof that there is a Bike God, and not of the old Testament kind. Ask me about picking literally 152 goat head thorns out of my fully inflated, saved by the sealant, 2.2" tire. Thanks for the rants, er, videos! Oh, and nothing more magic than riding the Borrego Desert at night under a clear sky!
I have always had good luck with plugging (bacon strip) road tubeless. Totally agree with you that tubeless is a pain, but I like to tinker with my bike in the evenings so gives me something to fiddle with.
Hi George, i have do some tests/strava data on my 9kg all city mr pink steel road bike, i weight 85 kg and the wheelset dt swiss oxic 21 mm rim /18 mm internal width on my daily commute. I test the 28 mm conti gp 5000 s tr vs the vittoria corsa control g2 28 mm with challenge latex tubes. Its a 26 km ride (2 km light gravel, 14 km bad and 10 km good road). I test both tires for a month and the vittoria /latex setup is 2-3 km/h more fast + they feel much better... I don't understand it cause the bicycle rolling resistance webside data says something complete different ???
lol, you certainly live up to your moniker George! @1;20 "watch this video with an open mind" So maybe you should keep an open mind too. I ride similar mileage. In 4 years and about 32,000 miles I have had zero flats riding the crappy roads around here. There are a few nuggets or truth in some of your points (e.g. the tires are heavier) but I could refute nearly all the other ones. I ride tubeless because it's less of a hassle and saves me time, and I love the security. I never even think about flats anymore and my spare tube has been unused for years. BTW I have worked in bike shops for nearly 40 years and currently own one so I'm not basing this on just my personal experience.
Just came back from a trip with my Ritchey Outback Breakaway! I could not pump up the tires with a mini pump when removed from the travel case since they could not seat properly. I ended up putting tubes and problem solved.
You may have cured me. I haven't had any real problems but the amount of thought i have put in to tubeless touring is axwaste of energy. Tubes are so easy to change. Other than mtb more effort than its worth
All valid points. Good things to think about. But many of the issues are addressable with wheel and tire evolution. So far really do like TL. Adjustable air pressure is awesome for adjusting to ride conditions. Pinch flats are gone. I do notice a better ride quality. Riding Conti's 5000 S TR on Mavis KSYRIUM UST 2021...... now disc brakes are different story, invented only so we can have carbon wheelsets on road bikes, that kinda sorta, don't really work as reliably.....
I want more evolution in tires, rims and SEALANT. Yes you raise some valid points yourself. The TL was the first tire that really “worked” for me. But alas, it has been discontinued. I still have to try the S TR but it’s really just too much hassle to set up another wheelset to try tubeless again. Tubed is so simple and elegant.
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad I hear you, I have never had a problem with tubed Conti GP5000. However, I like to sometimes run at a bit lower pressure to get a more comfortable ride on longer rides without worrying about pinch flats. Tubeless allows this. I like to be able to dial in my air pressure for comfort and road conditions.
@@kenedward4585 I hear what you’re saying. However, I run the same tire pressure whether short or long ride. 1. What do you consider “long” rides? 2. How much do you weigh? 3. I don’t get pinch flats on tubed setups 4. Larger sized tires can address the comfort issues with no need to play with tire pressures
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad The key phrase was "road conditions". Smooth tarmac, not problem, but throw in a not so maintained country road, then I find the lower pressure allows the tire to act like a shock. If you run lower pressure in tubed tire, then each bump you hit compresses and releases the tube and tire to increase chances of pinch flat....... btw, did you mention my biggest tubeless pain, buying a special pump to inflate the tire and set the rims?
@@kenedward4585 Hello Ken thank you for playing along! I was being the devil's advocate 😊 Oh good one I forgot to mention the better the pump the better the success in seating a tire. Special pump or a compressor at home is nearly essential with some rim and tire combinations.
I watched it all… many of your reasons against tubeless are the reasons I refuse to go there- too messy, to much maintenance required, and I can change a flat relatively quickly. Cars are tubeless.. and We don’t fill them with gunky sealant. I cannot stand that sealant. It’s such a mess. Good video. Maybe one day someone will perfect the solid tire- lightweight and fast.
Yes, biking needs to be fun, and you shouldn't worry about time-consuming and expensive maintenance. Tubes, rim brakes and aluminium or steel bikes with external routing for me all day long. Plus, they look more beautiful in most cases :)
Hi George, so true ! I have a poncture once every two-three years with tubes and performance tires too, so why changing to tubeless ??? It takes 5-10 min. to change a tube on a "side walk" for not any gain of weight at the final. Right ?! a ride a lot as well and reached #25 too ;-)
I'm invested at the moment. Once my tubless tyres get worn out, I doubt I'll keep the tubless setup. I tend to go through a tyre in around 6 months, so only do a quick top up of sealant at 3 months. I've had 3 catastrophic failurs in the last 2 years where not just the sealant went everywhere and didnt seal, but repair plugs blew out as well resulting in a phone call for recovery.
@@Simbostyle this seems to be the natural progression. People try it, they seemed happy, then the reality sets in. Once all my tubeless tires wear out I will be moving over to a tubed set up.
interesting to listen to a saint man not buying in to marketing BS :) listened till the end :) as for speed a comment, resistance changes with square of the speed, Ie diference between 28 and 40km/h which is 141% of original speed (increase of 41%) , but is 1.41^2 increase in wind resistance which is 2 , ie for 1.4 the speed its double the resistance. or even small increment, for 10% higher speed it is 20" higher wind resistance...
Great vid, I was wondering if you can give some advise.. I just went tubeless on one of my road bikes.. I started commuting to work (its been 3 months) about 12 miles one way, I have been getting alot of flats riding on side streets (glass, thorns, even staples) instead of the bike trail I usually ride on, one time I got 2 flats and ended up being late for work (I cannot afford that) I first went with conti 4 season tires but can feel the difference in rolling resistance when I ride with a group so I decided to go with GP 5000 STR's.. what would you go with in my situation? thx
You should have a look at the Gecko Rubber tyres that come out this year. It's a compound that has air bubbles in it and mimics clinchers well. Much better than the Tannus bs.
This is coming from a shop prespective as well. Fatbike with tubeless wheel and tire, but sold with a tube in it. Rim is 80mm wide and tire is 5" wide. It took me 45 minutes in the shop to change the tube, as the tire gets older, it becomes much harder to even get the bead of the tire off the rim. Here in Maine in this situation, you would get eaten alive by bogs in the summer months, what is this? Very difficult to mix tuneless tires/wheels with clinchers tires...very difficult to install if the problem is simply a flat. Like you, I'm totally against it, and I'm talking about bikes in the dirt. Labor rates for chaniging a tube vs any of the issues for tubelsss have to be different and some customers simply don't understand why. Just a PITA! HA!
It sounds like you know my pain very well. 😭😭 There are definitely two camps with completely opposite experiences. Those who ride tubeless and those that work on tubeless. The former never sees the issues that make their stuff work perfectly the latter is never adequately compensated to make the former’s stuff work properly. The former sings the praises of tubeless the latter knows the real truth.
Watching this as I'm scraping the dried sealant off of my tubeless tire, ... the one about finding a better use of my time hit hard, not gonna lie :D Oh and had to replace a rim tape on one wheel, managed to mess it up the first time. Taking off the tire and putting it back on is a bitch.
@@dsego84 ha ha yep the set up can be a pain but the constant maintenance is what I I would rather spend my time doing something else. Because I ride a lot and I ride race tires for my daily tires I’m no longer scraping out old sealant. I just keep adding and I will wear out a tire and throw it away. Thanks for watching please consider subscribing
To no16: you have To put in more sealant than 30ml. In your example the tubeless setup is already heavier. At this point you haven’t even take the weight of the valve and the tape into account. I’m using also using Conti gp5k and this was also a point I was thinking about, but it wasn’t really an important point for my consideration. I just don’t want to have the mess…
I agree, tubeless doesn't work for people that don't maintain their bikes in general. I'm not one of those people and surprise surprise it works for me. Obviously you as a mechanic maintain your stuff but most people just don't do it, and you know that very well. As with most failures, user error and incorrect use of equipment. Example, BB30 is a fantastic race bb, not that great for your 100kg hamfisted gear grinder though. Complaining about race equipment failing in non racing environments is just wanketeering.
But why no rim brakes on airplanes? Just kidding and thanks for your service from a pilot a and disc man. Cool list. I have held off all of the pressure from my LBS with their tubeless pitches for my gravel bike that I use in an urban environment. I have some Donelley's that seem to repel thorns, nails, and staples. I'm on a 5000K mile streak with no flats. After writing that, I suppose tomorrow will be my day.
I got 9 steel bikes, all of them updated to 7800 dura ace and c24 clincher wheels. I like modern mechanical but never tubeless, never . Not fun on group rides to have to wait while a guy tries to repair a tubeless tire
George, never apologise for your opinion or length of video. Your channel, you can do as you please with it. If people don't like it. There are many other channels they can watch. 👍
Maintenance is required but the payoff is worth it. I get much fewer flats with tubeless, either punctures or pinch flats. I can run lower pressure, have a more comfortable ride and less rolling resistance. Pros run tubeless for a reason - because there might be maintenance and slightly higher cost isn’t a reason not to do it. Why do we buy more expensive cars? Do they cost more, is the maintenance higher, do they have more tech? Yes - and you enjoy it more.
Over the years I have been experimenting with tubeless things have never been this good. The tire choice no is limitless, the sealants are better and the wheels are better. I am now running 28mm tires on training days and 32mm tires on event day. I’m riding much lower pressures at 70 psi for 28mm and 60 psi for 32mm. I have much more comfort and so far no punctures on event days. As disc brake bikes become more prevalent and tire manufacturers make their top end race tire at bigger and bigger sizes tubeless is finally going to be the solution. I’m still on the fence of hookless though. Thanks for watching please consider subscribing.
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad I think the trick to hookless is definitely go with a known high quality rim manufacturer and tire and make sure the two of them are matched on the ETRTO specifications. I’m using ENVE foundation 65 rims with Pirelli P Zero Race TLR 28mm on my Cervelo P TriRig.
Should have watched your video first before mounting 30mm TLR tires (with tube) on clincher rims. I spent two hours on both. It is a pain. I'm scared to bring these out on a long ride.😊
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad just check his latest video: some of the "useful idiots" are being laid off. I hope consumers can see how all this ties off, in other words, where companies will divert their marketing funding to and how.
I dont agree your comments about Di2.Di2 is every bit superior to mechanical shifting. Especially front shifting. Front shifting on mechanical is a headache. Chain rubs no matter what you do.Shifting requires a huge swing.When i was on mechanical i tried to avoid front shifting as long as i could. Only downside of Di2 i can think of is charhing battery.Also its expensive but i think it worths it.
I disagree with you on mechanical front derailleurs not working correctly. Who is adjusting your FD? I run Shimano Dura-Ace R9100. The FD, when tuned properly has 4 positions. I never have chain rub I’m sorry you had a poor experience with FD shifting but this sounds more like a mechanic with poor mechanical skills than the equipment itself. Putting aside my personal Dura-Ace, I tune my customer’s bikes as well (all group levels) with no chain rub. Is a button easier to push? Of course it is! But to say you avoided shifting because the lever throw was too hard sounds to me like it was never adjusted properly, friction in the line or both. A well tuned mechanical drivetrain isn’t all THAT hard to shift. Keep in mind I ran Di2 on my personal bikes for 8 years (Dura-Ace 10 speed 2009 and Dura-Ace 11 speed) so I know from personal experience that the expense is NOT worth it. I easily did over 80,000 miles on Di2. Far too many of the issues people claim to have with mechanical systems is a poor mechanic or user error. I can’t tell you how many times a consumer doesn’t realize Shimano FD’a have 4 positions to trim the FD to avoid chain rub. Not to mention poor shifting habits when they cross the chain Big Big or Little Little and expect the chain not to rub. You should never be within 2-3 cogs from the extremes there is always a comparable gear in a different chainring which offers a straighter chain line.
I wrote it off, then I saw two tubeless wins in one day…..luck of the draw. I recently took one off and found a ton of goop which weigh as much as a tube.
... - These tires ride so awesome! Because you've got so much investments suck into it... Damn! Why are you telling the truth! 😂😂After all, in fact, when we pay money, we figure out how to justify this purchase. Thanks for the video, you're right at all. But still, let the guys play with tubeless, then they think that they are faster. But the most important thing is that it makes them happy, and this is of course the main thing that we love the bike and get high from it!
😊Never tried tubeless and probably never will. The only reason they are pushing it is $$$, same as disc brakes on road bikes, loads more to go wrong = more $$$.
Tubeless and disc for under 40psi.
For road race go tubes and rim brake.
Rim for road!
Disc for dirt!❤
Thanks for watching Durianrider!
Disc- yes- especially in wet weather- but a tube is always easier to deal with at the side of the road or trail.
Made it all the way to #25
So many great points you made. So many folks like to pose trying to look pro, makes me sick-lol.
I’m rocking a rim brake bike with gp5000’s, latex/butyl tubes with a touch of baby power on 30mm alloy wheels. Easy and simple
Great video sir🙏🔥
Thank You Thank You! I appreciate you watching. GP5000 and Latex is a winning combination! Please consider subscribing
Made it to 25! Man, I think I need a cigarette after 40 mins of the Retro Grouch! LOL!!
Well said Grauch. Do one for disk brakes. I dislike the bike industry tries to change or make the trend and forces this changes upon us. Tubes and rim brakes I keep.😇
@@joieDeVivreDesiI love the look of rim brakes but I agree disc is better in every way.
@@joieDeVivreDesi I could not agree more about discs.
Especially on steep descents in the rain! In those conditions, rim brakes barely work at all.
Even my Magura hydraulics struggle, and Magura makes the best rim brakes on the planet.
My next bike is definitely going to be specced with discs.
Cheers
George, I agree with you as new is not always better. As someone who has ridden steel bikes for the last 30 years I struggle buying into all the marketing hype generated by bike companies to sell products. Bikes should be simple. I do like the new mechanical group sets and I do have a carbon disc gravel bike but my favorite bike is my current road bike which is a DeRosa steel frame bike with Campagnolo 12 speed Chorus with rim brakes and standard tube tires.
Too bad Im on the East Coast because I would love to visit your shop. My kind of bike shop!
Actually I still run tubular, even on the latest rims - and simply love it. It serves me well since the 90s never having any punctures. Awesome for road & cyclocross. But for my boys and lady - using tubes, they‘re happy - no ugly sealant and no tube change takes longer than 3min.
Old Skool thanks for watching
Excellent video George with so many salient points. I also ride over ten thousand miles annually so I've had my share of mishaps. You raise so many valid issues with tubeless and of course given your experience you have seen firsthand much of what can and often does go wrong. On my gravel bike this past year I have been running tubeless. We do a lot of adventure tours on mixed road surfaces and so far I've been fortunate to have suffered only minor issues. But I can easily see where you could be stranded in some remote location and have a major headache if you can't unseat your tire, or struggle to get a tube inside without pinching. My biggest fear is suffering a flat and being unable to unseat or reseat the tire in the middle of nowhere. Thanks for offering such honest and valuable advice given your extensive experience with the many challenges cyclists can expect when going tubeless.
Thank You Brian! It is definitely a thing not being able to brake the bead of a tubeless tire off of a tubeless rim. Depending on just the right (read wrong) combination it is impossible to remove the tire. I have had to cut the tire off of a few rims here in the shop. For people that ride as much as we do it would be awesome if tubeless would work as advertised.
Another example of things that don’t work for people who ride a lot - chain waxing through immersion hot wax. Who really has the time to fuss with all that nonsense when for it to last 250-300km? That’s not even a week of riding for me and my crew. Regardless how ineffective drip lube/wax may be it surely beats swapping out waxed chains 2X a week!
Thanks for watching and please consider subscribing
Great video George. I have been using tubeless road tech for 8+ years and have experienced almost all the issues you have raised. The 'hit and miss' nature is the most frustrating aspect. A successful setup, and the positive aspects of tubeless are present (a genuine control that compares with tubed clincher performance over tyre life would help here) but there are a number of recurrent issues. Setup is often challenging due to rim/tyre compatibility inconsistency. The need for specialised and relatively expensive materials such as valves, sealant, tubeless tape (correctly installed) and the possible need to use a compressor or air tank floor pump make the process challenging for the home mechanic. Also, there seem to be failure issues with sealant and plugs at pressures over 60 psi, often necessitating the insertion of a tube, thus defeating the advantages inherent in tubeless technology. My current process is to try for a successful initial successful tubeless setup but cut losses and insert a tube so that I can maximise riding time. The industry has a way to go with road tubeless!
Thank You for watching David. Hit and miss has been my experience for 14 years. People think I just started using it and poo poo the idea. No I’ve used it since inception and ridden literally over 100,000 miles on it.
Thanks for the response George Keep rolling and get that grandchild into cycling
@@davidproudfoot3424 ha ha I will do my best! Thanks for watching!
The best video I've ever seen dispelling all the marketing BS we see from channels like GCN etc. Your point number 19 is spot on I've said many times "if it isn't broken ............I ride many miles in the gritty lanes were I live in Cheshire, UK and haven't had a puncture in over 3 years. Mavic alloys, butyl tubes, Vredestein Fortezza Senso 23 mm tyres (Tires US) Oh, and rim brakes!
Like and subscribe and stick around I dispel lots of bike industry BS 😂 rim brakes for life!!
You sound like my internal voice. I feel your pain as someone who runs a bike shop. 😁
I know I have watched quite a few of your videos. Thank you for coming on to my channel Reginald!
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad Thank you Sir, ride safe! 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 likewise my friend!
Thank you for sharing your experience & knowledge. Saving a lot of trouble for fellow bikers.
Glad to help
Purchased a gravel bike, first upgrade I made was get rid of the tubeless system. Beyond me how people deal with that crap. Been chainging/patching tubes for 40+ years, simple, easy, predictable. Thanks for the video, it was entertaining to see what you have had to go through in your shop.
Yep tubeless works great for dirt! Gravel at below 40 psi and MTB at below 30 psi. Road tubeless will eventually get there when the sealant works above 70 psi
This is the best video ever on tubeless! Same experience.
Thanks for watching! Please share my video and please consider subscribing
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad Already did :)
@@stibra101 you’re awesome!! Thank You
Love the Grouch. I agree I’m changing to tubed tires and leaving the sealant behind. By the way I’m ordering a pair of jet rc hed wheels. I called and dropped your name with them and they said they will send you a t shirt. Thanks for the recommendation
Why didn’t you order the wheels from me? I don’t want a damn T-Shirt. Why do you think I do these videos?
You make a lot of very good points. I'm open to both sides of the argument, but for me - I see the pros and cons of both setups based on my observations of people I ride with. Me, personally, I haven't had a puncture that I've known about in all 4 years I've been riding on tubeless. Meanwhile my friends are regularly puncturing or getting pinch flats and are replacing tubes on their rides, sometimes more than once. A strong argument to use tubes if you're super-obsessed weight weenie, or if running extremely high pressures. However, they have additional weight of saddle bag, spare tubes or tubes, pump or CO2, tyre levers, etc. I just carry a CO2 in my pocket. At most I'd just add to that a plug. So weight savings balance out somewhat. Now we have wider tyres and lower pressures due to this (even on hooked rims) tubeless has better chance of sealing more often. Me - I'm staying with tubeless until it completely and utterly fails me.
I must be a retro-grouch too! I am agreeing with you on so many points! My foray into tubeless this weekend resulted in questions like, 'Why am I doing this? This is a mess...I only have 1 or 2 flats a year...What do I need this for? I can manage tubes (and even tubulars!) easier and faster. I wish I would've never even tried it. Your best point though...'They're creating a solution for a problem that doesn't exist'. Thank you for confirming my initial thoughts.
Thank You for watching Mark. Your comment made me laugh 😂
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Many good points here from a committed tubeless rider. I have found that once I discovered a good rim and tyre combination stick with it. Riding on minor roads in England we have lots of thorns in the Autumn Hegecutting season and flints all year round. We all get punctures. With tubeless try to plug the hole early so the tyre does not deflate. For big holes I use stans Darts and for small holes take one petal from a stans Dart and insert with a small allen key. In 6 years and about 40000 kilometer I have not needed an inner tube yet and I ride on summer tyres. It can be done but does need some thought. Enjoy the ride whichever system your on.
I've watched the whole video and you make some very valid points. Also, nice specs.
I disagree slightly with your last point about tubeless and MTB. I came across your video when I was looking for consolation after spending 4 hours of my life cleaning old rim tape and sealant form my wheel . 1 wheel. Still have the other to go.
What happened is that I went to my bike after 6 weeks of not riding it due to being away for work. The temperature here never went above 21 C during these 6 weeks.
Anyway. Two flats. No sign of punctures. I inflated. Didn't hold air. Noticed a leak at the valve stem.... yadayada... there I was dealing with a mess instead of riding my bike on a a nice free afternoon. Wouldn't have had to deal with this sh*t if I had tubes on. I can change a tube in about 10 mins max and I've suffered 2 pinch flats in 30 years of riding a bike. Both were on commuter road bikes and both were avoidable had I been paying attention.
So, this all got me thinking: a scenario where I get a pinch flat on my MTB is likely going to cause some other catastrophic failure on a tubeless setup. Which means I'd have to insert a tube as a fix anyway. I would hate to have to deal with that mess out in the woods.
Bottom line? I'm going back to Tubes with inserts: relatively puncture proof, less messy, and more reliable than tubeless, and can be ridden flat if you're really in a pickle. I'll add that anyone concerned about adding 500g on a ~100kg mud-caked MTB and amateur rider, can't be taken seriously.
😁 25 done and dusted, and agree 100%, I went down that road and now I'm on TPU tubes, best thing ever for road bikes. As for valves for tubeless (mtb), I highly recommend the Fillmore valves. No more clogging, much more air flow....fabulous.
Boom 25! I’m humbled you stayed until the finish! I hear a lot of good things about Filmore valves. Thanks for watching. Please consider subscribing.
Right there with you on all points George. Thank you for being the voice of reason. I'm not a roadracer and think it's absurd to need or want what roadracers have. I rarely get punctures because I don't care about speed. I ride a custom lugged steel frame/fork on 650c×23 clinchers/tubes. I only weigh around 125lb and only air up 60-75lb. With lower pressure and a bit of spring in the chassis 6 hrs in the saddle is easy and enjoyable.
Thank You Matt! KISS has always worked for me.
Thanks for watching please consider subscribing
Already Subscribed. Correction: I will be building a wheelset for sewups because I've been wanting to try them and can still get Conti Sprinter for 650c
Awesome! I love tubular! Thank you for your subscription
You already had me convinced with the last video on this subject haha! Sticking to tried and tested...No idea how to put a little smiley face, but please imagine that I have.
Point 9, I thought about going tubeless so I bought a tubeless compatible Shimano Ultegra front wheel to test it out. At the time in 2015 I had GP4000S tires so I was going to run them out then try tubeless. First day I try and put a GP4000S tire on the rim with a tube. God damn it took twenty five minutes to do something that usually takes thirty seconds putting the last few inches of bead up and over the rim. I'd used GP4000S tires for years and was totally familiar with how they mounted on multiple rims and those the difficulty to mount them was insane, I bought a lube from Schwalbe specifically for this but after that I vowed never to go tubeless for road.
Yes tubeless rims are very different. Thank You for watching please consider subscribing
Great video, many valid points! The streets of Portland Oregon are full of broken glass so for me tubless has helped prevent having to stop to make repairs during my commute. But I do agree can be a pain at times. Thanks for the videos!!
Thank You for watching! If your commute is filled with land mines may I suggest Gatorskin Hardshells or Schwable Marathon Plus tires and still running tubes.
And also, about 9 months ago you sold me a SQ 612 active and I love it! Thanks
@@brandonmccormick7886 YES!!! Thank You for the feedback on the SQ Lab saddle!
portland sucks
@@Sills71 sounds like you have personal experience regarding Portland 😂
You forgot 26, you can buy removable valve tubes and put sealant in either before you leave home or after you get a puncture with a silicon tube. Less mess as the tube holds the sealant and you use the sealant as required. No cleaning dried sealant, just put a new tube in. And yes sealant does works in a tube as well.
🙂 25 makes the most sense. As for the rest, I have 24 reasons not to experiment on my road bike with something that was going to waste so much of my precious time. Thanks for the heads up and much appreciated 🙏 👍 ✌
Thank You for hanging in until point 25! I appreciate your time and your attention.
Please consider subscribing
The Retro Grouch is now The Salient, Cogent Grouch!
I wish I had known about all this before purchasing all the supplies to go tubeless. I watched countless cycling channels and most (not all) tout the benefits of going tubeless. It took me about three hours to get my back wheel set up tubeless only to get sprayed with sealant when I pushed in the sidewall by hand to verify the bead was secure. It was then that I heard a booming voice in my head that said, "It was at that moment he knew...he f***ed up!". I lost all confidence in the integrity of the tubeless setup. So I cleaned everything up, reinstalled a tube, and put everything I purchased in the supplies cabinet probably never to be used. This video is an outstanding discussion as to why going tubeless is not all it's cracked up to be.
Thank You JDP! How far into the video did you get?
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad All 25. I'm going to recommend it. I really like your channel. Have been binge watching your videos since discovering.
@@TexasNightRider Thank You! What do you like about the channel?
Great video. I made it through all 25 points and I agree with you. I ride Conti 5000s with latex tubes. It's the best combination as the ride quality is as good as tubulars. Honestly, I can't tell the difference. By the way, about those damn dimples on my Firecrest wheels - seems to me that they make no difference whatsoever. Do you think Zipp will refund my money as that was their big selling point and I got hooked in? I just feel like a fool with a big sucker sticker on my head!! But the industry won't hook me in twice - no tubeless tires for me -thanks to your video.
Schwalbe ones!! My first tubeless set up was this tire with a set of carbon November Rail wheels…just for “fun” I got curious about how hard the tries would be to take off after a flat so I tried to dismount the tire….I couldn’t get the tire off one side of the rim -on both wheels- even with pliers! I had to send them back to November…the owner of the wheel company had to cut the tires of the wheel! Schwalbe blamed November and November blamed schwalbe. Either way I was out shopping both ways and the tires that only had a couple hundred miles on them
Point 5- I experience my valves leaking for a few seconds after I remove my pump chuck. This is on my gravel bike with 40min in them…a little annoying. I do worry about how much build up of sealant gets into my floor pump down the road.
I agree about the tubeless but I like my Di2 on my recumbent. Is Di2 necessary, no it’s not, is it reliable, I think so unlike tubeless and sealant.
My winspace hypers with gp5000 tlr hav me been good…no flats this season in Michigan. Easy on and off…I do worry it will be a mess to flat out on the road though….what if you don’t top off your sealent! I’ve also had many ride mates batteries die in the electronic shifting bikes…that’s my retro grouch for the day
Great video, 40 years experience riding, racing. I own 18 bikes right now and only my Mtn bike is tubeless. An extra point, safety, have a road tubeless burp on a descent, not fun. New subscriber.
Agree 100%. Never tried tubeless and don't want to. Now there is TPU (Tubolito), which I am using and is working great.
Thanks for watching please consider subscribing
I love your shout-out to Durian Rider, a most unique “Retro Groucho”!
Unique is a great way to characterize Durian Rider! Thanks for watching all the way to the end!
I have had it with tubeless tyres and have gone back to tubes and havent regretted it at all . Its more of headache and nuisence to setup and maintain and the sealents arent that great and the tyres dont help too. The mess it makes when it goes over you and bike its a pain in the ass. Good video George.
Indeed! Thanks for watching. Please consider subscribing
Love the retro grouch! Keep it up George❤👍
Hi George, I enjoyed your rant and agree with a lot of what you said. I run latex tubes and clincher on my Colnago as they perform and the best option for racing for sure. On my ritchey run tubeless as in my opinion they perform the role of go anywhere tyre and give me more confidence on road and gravel. It was a learning curve at first but after a few years am very happy with them. Most of my friends won't go near tubeless but I just smile and wait patiently while they repair their flats. I have had 2 times where the sidewall has cut and needed to use a tube, both on gravel and my friends didn't see it because they don't ride on gravel incase they puncture.
Absolute words of wisdom!
Thank You for watching Rick! Please consider subscribing
That was a very interesting and informative video. What is your take on tubeless on gravel bikes.
Fine for gravel or low pressure uses.
I recall first hearing about tubeless tires and about the sealant specifically and thinking to myself “This is too messy/complicated for me,”. I actually tried Mavic’s UST system and can say it was the best tubeless system. It was designed to work with or without sealant with their tires.
Also the only system I know I could seat with a standard floor pump
@@paulschulman8131 Goodyear tires seat easily with a floor pump too.
@@bykr2009 good to know
Pure gold. The voice of reason.
@@chrissumpter3417 thanks for watching please consider subscribing
That is why I never mess with tubeless tire I always use tubes.
Thank You for watching AlhaPG! Please consider subscribing
You make lots of good points. There are lots of legitimate drawbacks. I think it comes down to how flat-prone people's area is. In Portland, OR, there's not only glass and construction debris on the side of the roads but the city spreads crushed rocks instead of road salt in the winter. It's flat-tastic. Winter group rides are a joke - can't make it 10 miles without another flat in the bunch. I switched to tubeless on my road bike 4-5 years ago and it's been a total game changer. I think I've had 2 flats in 4 years (one sealed, one had to be plugged). That said, if I tear a sidewall or otherwise can't plug a leak, I know I'll have to Uber home. There's no chance in hell I can remove that tire to insert a tube. I don't even carry a tube anymore (multiple CO2's instead).
Stop making so much real-world sense.
Bicycle King George I presume, you have nothing to apologize for as far as your bicycle content is concerned. The longer the movie the better.
In my opinion your channel's content is superb and your on screen mannerism is delightful to experience.
Yes! Tubeless bicycle tires are an over pressurized money and mess making fiasco.
🤮 makes me vommit my stash.
What works for my ride is; 29"X3" plus size tires with inner tubes, and the tubes are holding flat attack puncture sealant.
This system works well for my application.
Thanks for watching! I appreciate your kind words. I know people like long format videos. I like to feel that I am having a conversation with someone when I do my videos.
Tubeless road just isn’t there yet
Im a noob. 6yrs ago started out riding occasionally on an old Trek 9spd dura ace 5500 with alloy wheels with tubes. I road very little perhaps 3 to 5 hundred miles a year. I had maybe a flat a year sometimes two. My truck broke down in December of 2023. I road that bike everywhere for a month and racked up my yearly milage in a couple weeks. I had three flats in that time. One flat I had at night in the rain I was unable to fix with my two spares as both had tinny holes. That was my worst flat. I walked 8 miles home in the rain rolling my bike on the front tire. A week later that bike was totaled due to a road rage incident. The situation lead to me buying a new giant TCR with hookless tubeless carbon rims and disc brakes. I was new to the whole setup coming from a bike that was 20yrs old. I was a little intimidated after hearing my local bike mechanic talk about the complexity of it. Nonetheless I purchased the new bike with a power meter and computer. I never had any of these metric devices before. I fell quickly in love with riding the new bike and following my performance stats was fun and interesting. 1000 miles into riding I noticed several needles from radial tires that had imbedded themselves into my tires. These were the cause of all of my flats on my tube tires in the past. The tubeless tire was unaffected. It would not even affect the tire pressure. I was riding 80 to 90lbs for the first 1k miles. after another 1k of miles I got a real flat while doing a small 30m ride didn't notice it until I got home and saw the sealant on my seat tube. it was piled up all in one spot mostly, like one big glob. Idk if this is the right thing to do but I routinely clean my bike with rubbing alcohol. It cleaned the sealant up quite easily and repaired the tire with bacon strips and continued to ride with no issue. A week later I set off on my first century nearly at the top of my first climb I flatted. Stupidly I had not refilled the sealant. I tried plugging the tire with bacon strips and was unable to sufficiently stop the leak. I had a spare tube and began removing the tire. After some struggles I managed to "fix it" I finished the century with a tire that wasn't seated correctly and consequently I was extremely conservative on all of my descents. The next day I bought a new tire, my local mechanic gave me two new bottles of sealant and I installed the new tire at home with a floor pump. It was pretty easy with just a little mess from perhaps cutting the hole in the bottle two big. Valve core works fine tire works great. way less faffing around than my tube tires. Didn't need to buy new valves or rim tape which actually come with every new tubeless wheel set Ive seen. I learned that I need a quality plug repair kit, co2 is nice to have on me, and to keep sealant in my tires after a legitimate hole. Also my area has rough roads with large cracks in a lot of places. Larger tires with tubeless tires at lower pressure is a game changer for me. I know I'm just a dumb noob but I think with anything new theres a learning curve and a way to do thing correctly without creating more problems. Im curious to see how my tubeless saga plays out rolling forward.
Thanks for watching
Great countdown. May I add more retrogrouching on aero. Body drag is much more important than bike drag. So if going > 30kph, holding a position with the head+shoulders even just 1"-2" lower will be worth more than any $ one could possible spend on bike aero. To the weight room for core and flexibility instead.
I completely agree!! Body drag accounts for 87% of the total system. It’s ridiculous the silly stuff people worry about when they are over weight and poorly positioned on their bike.
Thanks for watching
Hey George! What rim tape works fine for you when using latex tubes? I’ve had some latex tubes blown outs and i think the rim tape is the culprit.
Conti Easy tape is perfect
Wish I've found you video 9 months ago B4 trying tubeless. 23 troubles points out of your 25 happened to me.
Oh dear so sorry that happened to you!
Please share my video with your friends thinking of going road tubeless.
And please consider subscribing
I watched till the end.....🙂
1st I need to say that I have been using inner tubes since I was a little kid.
Now, regarding John and the 4 hrs bike designed for the PROs, the analogy I give to people every time they talk about a "Super aero bike" is.... why do I need to buy the latest scientific calculator to perform only the basic mathematical operations (+ - × ÷)?, it is nonsense to do so because I will never use that scientific calculator for what it was really designed for.... But in general, I think the reasons for buying unnecessary bikes/accessories/etc. are: for show off and/or that people are victims of the marketing hype. 🤷♂️
Also…also…😂…what’s your experience installing gp5000 tires (with tube) on your Ardennes RA wheels?
I personally own and ride GP5000 and HED Ardennes Black wheels. They are just fine to install.
See video
My Ritchey Road Logic - steel rim brake Video 2 of 2 sub 17 lbs
th-cam.com/video/3gWt9BVYQWY/w-d-xo.html
Made it through 25. I used tubeless for my road bike this year, but I did not have a puncture. For point 3, I used the Filmore valves to avoid value clogs. I recently got a new wheelset and I've been debating if I should use tubes or go tubeless again. I'm leaning towards tubes for ease. I understand latex tubes need to be inflated before every ride, which is not a big deal. If I use latex tubes on a long ride (say 100 miles), should I be concerned about the loss of air pressure during the ride?
Thank you so much for making it through all 25 points!
I’m curious how a Filmore valve keeps the valve core from clogging. Not the main valve the valve core the very tip of it.
You should be airing up before every ride anyway. That’s just what you do.
You won’t have any depreciable air loss with latex tubes over 100 miles or longer. Ever notice how after a pit stop you come back to your bike and you have a flat? You got that miles ago but because you were riding it didn’t lose pressure - until you stopped.
Ouch! You hit a sore point when you talked about not being able to remove the valve nut. This happened to me on a mountain bike tubeless setup, and took me 30 minutes to figure out that I could get it loose using my multi-tool in a way that I'm sure is legal only in two states. Since then I 3D printed a bunch of valve nut removal tools, they literally weigh one gram, and are on both of my tubeless mtn bikes.
I guess road and mtn are different, but tubeless for mtn bikes is final proof that there is a Bike God, and not of the old Testament kind. Ask me about picking literally 152 goat head thorns out of my fully inflated, saved by the sealant, 2.2" tire. Thanks for the rants, er, videos! Oh, and nothing more magic than riding the Borrego Desert at night under a clear sky!
Ha ha great testimony to the valve nut. Yes MTB tubeless with 30 psi or lower is amazing
I have always had good luck with plugging (bacon strip) road tubeless. Totally agree with you that tubeless is a pain, but I like to tinker with my bike in the evenings so gives me something to fiddle with.
Hi George, i have do some tests/strava data on my 9kg all city mr pink steel road bike, i weight 85 kg and the wheelset dt swiss oxic 21 mm rim /18 mm internal width on my daily commute. I test the 28 mm conti gp 5000 s tr vs the vittoria corsa control g2 28 mm with challenge latex tubes. Its a 26 km ride (2 km light gravel, 14 km bad and 10 km good road). I test both tires for a month and the vittoria /latex setup is 2-3 km/h more fast + they feel much better... I don't understand it cause the bicycle rolling resistance webside data says something complete different ???
lol, you certainly live up to your moniker George! @1;20 "watch this video with an open mind" So maybe you should keep an open mind too. I ride similar mileage. In 4 years and about 32,000 miles I have had zero flats riding the crappy roads around here. There are a few nuggets or truth in some of your points (e.g. the tires are heavier) but I could refute nearly all the other ones. I ride tubeless because it's less of a hassle and saves me time, and I love the security. I never even think about flats anymore and my spare tube has been unused for years. BTW I have worked in bike shops for nearly 40 years and currently own one so I'm not basing this on just my personal experience.
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Can we please have the Retro Grouch do a "25 reasons why disk brakes suck for road"?
Just came back from a trip with my Ritchey Outback Breakaway! I could not pump up the tires with a mini pump when removed from the travel case since they could not seat properly. I ended up putting tubes and problem solved.
Yep the much maligned tube still has a purpose 😂 Thank You for watching!
You may have cured me. I haven't had any real problems but the amount of thought i have put in to tubeless touring is axwaste of energy. Tubes are so easy to change. Other than mtb more effort than its worth
I have had a good experience lately. It’s all about getting the tire size up and the pressure down then it will work more predictably
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All valid points. Good things to think about. But many of the issues are addressable with wheel and tire evolution. So far really do like TL. Adjustable air pressure is awesome for adjusting to ride conditions. Pinch flats are gone. I do notice a better ride quality. Riding Conti's 5000 S TR on Mavis KSYRIUM UST 2021...... now disc brakes are different story, invented only so we can have carbon wheelsets on road bikes, that kinda sorta, don't really work as reliably.....
I want more evolution in tires, rims and SEALANT. Yes you raise some valid points yourself. The TL was the first tire that really “worked” for me. But alas, it has been discontinued. I still have to try the S TR but it’s really just too much hassle to set up another wheelset to try tubeless again. Tubed is so simple and elegant.
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad I hear you, I have never had a problem with tubed Conti GP5000. However, I like to sometimes run at a bit lower pressure to get a more comfortable ride on longer rides without worrying about pinch flats. Tubeless allows this. I like to be able to dial in my air pressure for comfort and road conditions.
@@kenedward4585 I hear what you’re saying. However, I run the same tire pressure whether short or long ride.
1. What do you consider “long” rides?
2. How much do you weigh?
3. I don’t get pinch flats on tubed setups
4. Larger sized tires can address the comfort issues with no need to play with tire pressures
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad The key phrase was "road conditions". Smooth tarmac, not problem, but throw in a not so maintained country road, then I find the lower pressure allows the tire to act like a shock. If you run lower pressure in tubed tire, then each bump you hit compresses and releases the tube and tire to increase chances of pinch flat....... btw, did you mention my biggest tubeless pain, buying a special pump to inflate the tire and set the rims?
@@kenedward4585 Hello Ken thank you for playing along! I was being the devil's advocate 😊
Oh good one I forgot to mention the better the pump the better the success in seating a tire. Special pump or a compressor at home is nearly essential with some rim and tire combinations.
I watched it all… many of your reasons against tubeless are the reasons I refuse to go there- too messy, to much maintenance required, and I can change a flat relatively quickly.
Cars are tubeless.. and We don’t fill them with gunky sealant. I cannot stand that sealant. It’s such a mess.
Good video.
Maybe one day someone will perfect the solid tire- lightweight and fast.
Thank you for watching! There are too many negatives outweighing the positives
What are your thoughts on “lizard skins” tire liners… Maybe a good choice for gravel bikes to run tubes…
Tire liners may have a use for some applications. Personally, I don’t ever have a need for them. You have to do you based on where you ride your bike.
😁Great points! Especially about all the aero stuff, “look pro, ride slow” cyclists…
Bought into the tubeless hype so tried it for a year, what a PITA, I'm back on tubes
Yep it’s not as great as the bike industry makes it seem
Yes, biking needs to be fun, and you shouldn't worry about time-consuming and expensive maintenance. Tubes, rim brakes and aluminium or steel bikes with external routing for me all day long. Plus, they look more beautiful in most cases :)
Correct correct correct!
Spot on in all respects!
@@BrianRPaterson worth your 40 minutes? 😂
On today’s ride, someone running tubeless got a flat and it did not seal. Dude had to call Uber.
It won’t be the last time you see that! 😂
😀 Thanks for the best explanation I have heard to date.
You’re Welcome! Please consider subscribing and share this video with your friends.
Hi George, so true ! I have a poncture once every two-three years with tubes and performance tires too, so why changing to tubeless ??? It takes 5-10 min. to change a tube on a "side walk" for not any gain of weight at the final. Right ?! a ride a lot as well and reached #25 too ;-)
Thank You for sticking with me to the end! I appreciate your support. Thanks for watching Jerome!
🙂
Think I agree with every point. Giving tubless another year, but it is more hassle than it's worth.
So you’re going to keep banging your head against the wall? 😂
I'm invested at the moment. Once my tubless tyres get worn out, I doubt I'll keep the tubless setup. I tend to go through a tyre in around 6 months, so only do a quick top up of sealant at 3 months. I've had 3 catastrophic failurs in the last 2 years where not just the sealant went everywhere and didnt seal, but repair plugs blew out as well resulting in a phone call for recovery.
@@Simbostyle this seems to be the natural progression. People try it, they seemed happy, then the reality sets in. Once all my tubeless tires wear out I will be moving over to a tubed set up.
You should have waited until closer to Christmas, then you could have named your video How the Grouch Squashed Tubeless
interesting to listen to a saint man not buying in to marketing BS :)
listened till the end :)
as for speed a comment, resistance changes with square of the speed, Ie diference between 28 and 40km/h which is 141% of original speed (increase of 41%) , but is 1.41^2 increase in wind resistance which is 2 , ie for 1.4 the speed its double the resistance. or even small increment, for 10% higher speed it is 20" higher wind resistance...
Ok but what are you are trying to say please?
Great vid, I was wondering if you can give some advise.. I just went tubeless on one of my road bikes.. I started commuting to work (its been 3 months) about 12 miles one way, I have been getting alot of flats riding on side streets (glass, thorns, even staples) instead of the bike trail I usually ride on, one time I got 2 flats and ended up being late for work (I cannot afford that) I first went with conti 4 season tires but can feel the difference in rolling resistance when I ride with a group so I decided to go with GP 5000 STR's.. what would you go with in my situation? thx
😃 Do Latex tubes puncture more easily than butyl tubes?
I think they do. But I don’t have any real world long term experience with them.
Tubeless can potentially came off the rim if you have a bad crashed. I suggest you watch the video when A. Van Vleuten crash during the time trial.
I was thinking of trying road tubeless for the perceived benefits but now after watching this I will definitely not try it. Thanks George
I just saved You hundreds of dollars and frustration. Thanks for watching please consider subscribing
i love a loose tyre-rim combination.
Me too!! Thanks for watching
You should have a look at the Gecko Rubber tyres that come out this year. It's a compound that has air bubbles in it and mimics clinchers well. Much better than the Tannus bs.
Thank You
I just got to finish your video. disregard my previous question. Thank you :)
🙂
You’re Welcome and thank you for finishing the video!
This is coming from a shop prespective as well. Fatbike with tubeless wheel and tire, but sold with a tube in it. Rim is 80mm wide and tire is 5" wide. It took me 45 minutes in the shop to change the tube, as the tire gets older, it becomes much harder to even get the bead of the tire off the rim. Here in Maine in this situation, you would get eaten alive by bogs in the summer months, what is this? Very difficult to mix tuneless tires/wheels with clinchers tires...very difficult to install if the problem is simply a flat. Like you, I'm totally against it, and I'm talking about bikes in the dirt. Labor rates for chaniging a tube vs any of the issues for tubelsss have to be different and some customers simply don't understand why. Just a PITA! HA!
It sounds like you know my pain very well. 😭😭
There are definitely two camps with completely opposite experiences. Those who ride tubeless and those that work on tubeless. The former never sees the issues that make their stuff work perfectly the latter is never adequately compensated to make the former’s stuff work properly. The former sings the praises of tubeless the latter knows the real truth.
George, Great!!🥰
Watching this as I'm scraping the dried sealant off of my tubeless tire, ... the one about finding a better use of my time hit hard, not gonna lie :D
Oh and had to replace a rim tape on one wheel, managed to mess it up the first time. Taking off the tire and putting it back on is a bitch.
@@dsego84 ha ha yep the set up can be a pain but the constant maintenance is what I I would rather spend my time doing something else. Because I ride a lot and I ride race tires for my daily tires I’m no longer scraping out old sealant. I just keep adding and I will wear out a tire and throw it away.
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To no16: you have To put in more sealant than 30ml. In your example the tubeless setup is already heavier. At this point you haven’t even take the weight of the valve and the tape into account. I’m using also using Conti gp5k and this was also a point I was thinking about, but it wasn’t really an important point for my consideration. I just don’t want to have the mess…
I agree, tubeless doesn't work for people that don't maintain their bikes in general. I'm not one of those people and surprise surprise it works for me. Obviously you as a mechanic maintain your stuff but most people just don't do it, and you know that very well. As with most failures, user error and incorrect use of equipment.
Example, BB30 is a fantastic race bb, not that great for your 100kg hamfisted gear grinder though. Complaining about race equipment failing in non racing environments is just wanketeering.
Wow, great video! 👍
Thank You Gerhard! Please share it!
But why no rim brakes on airplanes? Just kidding and thanks for your service from a pilot a and disc man. Cool list. I have held off all of the pressure from my LBS with their tubeless pitches for my gravel bike that I use in an urban environment. I have some Donelley's that seem to repel thorns, nails, and staples. I'm on a 5000K mile streak with no flats. After writing that, I suppose tomorrow will be my day.
I got 9 steel bikes, all of them updated to 7800 dura ace and c24 clincher wheels. I like modern mechanical but never tubeless, never . Not fun on group rides to have to wait while a guy tries to repair a tubeless tire
George, never apologise for your opinion or length of video. Your channel, you can do as you please with it. If people don't like it. There are many other channels they can watch. 👍
Indeed and thank you for your support sir!
26. Not enough choices. There are only like 10 tires to chose from.
Maintenance is required but the payoff is worth it. I get much fewer flats with tubeless, either punctures or pinch flats. I can run lower pressure, have a more comfortable ride and less rolling resistance. Pros run tubeless for a reason - because there might be maintenance and slightly higher cost isn’t a reason not to do it. Why do we buy more expensive cars? Do they cost more, is the maintenance higher, do they have more tech? Yes - and you enjoy it more.
Over the years I have been experimenting with tubeless things have never been this good. The tire choice no is limitless, the sealants are better and the wheels are better. I am now running 28mm tires on training days and 32mm tires on event day. I’m riding much lower pressures at 70 psi for 28mm and 60 psi for 32mm. I have much more comfort and so far no punctures on event days. As disc brake bikes become more prevalent and tire manufacturers make their top end race tire at bigger and bigger sizes tubeless is finally going to be the solution. I’m still on the fence of hookless though. Thanks for watching please consider subscribing.
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad I think the trick to hookless is definitely go with a known high quality rim manufacturer and tire and make sure the two of them are matched on the ETRTO specifications. I’m using ENVE foundation 65 rims with Pirelli P Zero Race TLR 28mm on my Cervelo P TriRig.
Should have watched your video first before mounting 30mm TLR tires (with tube) on clincher rims. I spent two hours on both. It is a pain. I'm scared to bring these out on a long ride.😊
Yes getting a flat on the road will take even longer to change than at home!
Bring extra tubes the pinch rate is quite high when using a tubeless tire with tubes! Thanks for watching please consider subscribing
I'm starting to get the feeling that this character has an influence from the 5yo Hambini.
Ha ha that’s funny Hambini puts out great content even as a 5 y/o but his pen is working 😂
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad just check his latest video: some of the "useful idiots" are being laid off.
I hope consumers can see how all this ties off, in other words, where companies will divert their marketing funding to and how.
@@piteiracorp ok going over now
@@piteiracorp I just watched it. So he believes the one man TH-camr has potential to fill the space being vacated by the MSM
@@SeeYouUpTheRoad I`d say its already happening for a while, bike companies are starting to "get it".
A 40 min discussion about road tubeless?
Let me strap in!
Cheers
😂 thanks for watching Brian!
I dont agree your comments about Di2.Di2 is every bit superior to mechanical shifting. Especially front shifting. Front shifting on mechanical is a headache. Chain rubs no matter what you do.Shifting requires a huge swing.When i was on mechanical i tried to avoid front shifting as long as i could. Only downside of Di2 i can think of is charhing battery.Also its expensive but i think it worths it.
I disagree with you on mechanical front derailleurs not working correctly. Who is adjusting your FD? I run Shimano Dura-Ace R9100. The FD, when tuned properly has 4 positions. I never have chain rub I’m sorry you had a poor experience with FD shifting but this sounds more like a mechanic with poor mechanical skills than the equipment itself. Putting aside my personal Dura-Ace, I tune my customer’s bikes as well (all group levels) with no chain rub.
Is a button easier to push? Of course it is! But to say you avoided shifting because the lever throw was too hard sounds to me like it was never adjusted properly, friction in the line or both. A well tuned mechanical drivetrain isn’t all THAT hard to shift.
Keep in mind I ran Di2 on my personal bikes for 8 years (Dura-Ace 10 speed 2009 and Dura-Ace 11 speed) so I know from personal experience that the expense is NOT worth it. I easily did over 80,000 miles on Di2.
Far too many of the issues people claim to have with mechanical systems is a poor mechanic or user error. I can’t tell you how many times a consumer doesn’t realize Shimano FD’a have 4 positions to trim the FD to avoid chain rub. Not to mention poor shifting habits when they cross the chain Big Big or Little Little and expect the chain not to rub. You should never be within 2-3 cogs from the extremes there is always a comparable gear in a different chainring which offers a straighter chain line.
I wrote it off, then I saw two tubeless wins in one day…..luck of the draw. I recently took one off and found a ton of goop which weigh as much as a tube.
I think the out of balance tire/wheel due to dried sealant actually caused a speed wobble. Just my speculation.
#6, yes tires are more expensive but in my experience they last longer. So a wash.
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... - These tires ride so awesome! Because you've got so much investments suck into it...
Damn! Why are you telling the truth! 😂😂After all, in fact, when we pay money, we figure out how to justify this purchase.
Thanks for the video, you're right at all. But still, let the guys play with tubeless, then they think that they are faster. But the most important thing is that it makes them happy, and this is of course the main thing that we love the bike and get high from it!
Ha ha thank you for your support. I’ll let them play with tubeless and I’ll just play with my tubes 😂 please consider subscribing
Made it to 25! 😊
Thank You for your endurance! Did you subscribe? Please share as well
😄made it to 25, and all make sense to me 👍
Thank you for hanging in there until the end!!
More plastic to get rid of, more chemicals used, can't use sealant as a bungee cord / strap, can't make a chair seat / back out of sealant.
You are correct!
😊Never tried tubeless and probably never will. The only reason they are pushing it is $$$, same as disc brakes on road bikes, loads more to go wrong = more $$$.
True and true!