THE #1 cycling podcast. THE only cycling podcast that holds your attention, just begs to be watched at 1x speed and has the kind of controversy you can HEAR!
Glad to see Pinarello get some credit for keeping a top spec rim brake option available in the market. They also are continuing to offer several more (or double) the size offerings as other brands. Sure they are asking a mint for their top spec bikes but they aren’t pocketing all the cash. They are investing in offering the market things other brands aren’t.
Usually listen on Spotify but came here to say this: thankyou for pointing out how dodgy neo world is and how it’s just the wrong audience for a gambling company. You’re both doing the best for cycling and love that you just speak your mind
The main failing of stack and reach is that they only refer to what is happening in front of the bottom bracket,'. 'If two frames have the same measured reach but one has a slacker seat tube angle [putting the seat further back], that creates additional reach, which isn't taken into account.
I like velogicfit because you can enter stem length and angle plus height of spacers and it will tell you where the bars end up. Great for seeing what stem/spacer combo you'll need on a new frame to match your current bike.
I also rode the Devils Cardigan (Masters 7 60-64), there is one word i didn't hear once in your summary of the event, FUN. I had an absolute ball, awesome weather, excellent surface and a great "vibe". Chris, i said hi at the rego on Friday 😃
“People really over complicate getting a bike the right size” followed by 20 minutes chat on reach, stack, extra large is actually a large, seat tube angle, spacers, top tube, geometry charts, head tube size, front ends etc.
Yeah. I mean the size of top tube is really enough. The most important thing is to know what is too big for you because there is nothing worse than a too large bike. Then you have like 4-5cm to aork with on a saddle and stem. Just dont go too big because it will feel awkard
Chris, great summary of your gravel experience. As an Australian living in the California it’s been fascinating to see the rise of gravel in the past 5 years and very much reminds me of evolution of XC Racing/ events and MTB. I would encourage the view that it doesn’t matter what style of bike anyone rides.. it’s not good or bad it’s just different, but we are all cycling that’s the main point. My local bike shop is seeing Gravel outselling road 5:1 and events are getting bigger and very well organised. My wife and I recently competed at Finland Gravel - super fun 4 day event and have Steamboat and Mammoth Tuff also on our race list. We also ride our road bikes on the weekends in Bay Area. Not everyone has access to great road rides living in large urban cities, and the events are super fun and cater to all groups and we all know the right number of bikes is N+1. Lastly the price point of the average Gravel bike is also more accessible vs. super bike which is probably also a factor in the increased adoption
Gravel seems to me to be off-road fondos, a nice addition to road fondos and something adventurous and fun and challenging. And most people have to get back to work after the weekend and gravel facilitates that, maybe a little blood and dirt and tears but generally not the risk of high-speed asphalt races, thrilling but dangerous and real life doesn't really accommodate crashes and time-off for recovery. And epic to hear, Chris, that you will be joining Shane for a big Tour of Frankfurt! Show us everything and talk with everyone and hopefully get out on bikes and ride through the countryside, get lost on the roads in the Taunus Mountains. :)
If you want to know why there's so many good cyclists from Slovenia, you should come and ride here. Of course don't forget to bring your gravel bikes alongside!
Neo pro came and took the photo of the Trek bike in the store that I work at - they came in, took the photo and left, didn’t really ask anyone as ‘head office’ had approved them. A bit disappointing considering they claim to be a community brand.
Great episode. 1:23:39 when Chris closed the gap on the most avoided section by most cyclist aka climbing, then it was the proof. Chris can roll out his power more efficiently 1:27:11 precisely what I thought; I’d try deeper wheels. Cadex 50 Ultra I have learnt that numbers may not accurately represent in some scenarios.
The biggest thing about the sponsor chat with off-road riders is that there are no or much more smaller teams. This means riders shop around for the best deals, and brands are more likely to be on board to sponsor one rider who battles for the win instead of 11 or so guys. Also, because these events involve more mass participation, more of the cycling community sees these riders and watches them race. The elite end integrates more with the lower ends of the road cycling. Races like the Shifty-50 Series in Vic is a prime example of this. It's a 50km mtb xc race where everyone starts simultaneously, and you race against the pros. You see them, and they are way more relatable because you have just raced the same race as them. Then they hang around afterwards saying simple things like a good job and well done builds a stronger connection with riders across the different skill levels.
Jesse is just psyching himself out. Jesse would be fine on a gravel course. Just have to practise a bit and get a feel for what the bike can handle . Just go the widest chunkiest grippiest tyre you can find if really rough. And take your time in your "comfort zone speed" on the descents until u build up confidence.
Gravel descending is a skill, just like road descending. More practice, more confidence, less tense, faster times. Hard to jump on a gravel bike once a month and stay with guys riding gravel all the time. A bit like the guys that mostly ride Zwift. They have the watts, but need outside practice to tune in the handling skills.
CONGRATS Chris on the Gravel Silver. Glad You gave it a try and Your comments were instructive. Good on You😎 Gravel vs Road is like Apples vs Oranges. They are just different - full stop. There is also a range of "gravel" conditions. The one You did looked at least a level 3 (out of 4). Mountain biker would be much more comfortable on that than a Roadie who would excel on a Level 1 (hard packed dirt & pebbles) maybe even Level 2. After trying all four levels, I much rather stay on 1 and maybe 2 if I'm feeling frisky. It's fun riding both Road & Gravel with the right bike setup, good weather and road conditions that match an individual's preference.
Yup, you’d be looking for “fit stack” instead of “frame stack”, specialized lists fit stack on most of their upper end frames but a lot of brands only list frame stack.
Agree that reach and stack are the two most important. However seatpost length and seat tube Centre to Top are also important to determine whether the bike may be too small
Watched TdF Unchained on Netflix and was thinking why the hell didn’t they use footage from the Nero Show?!? I was a bit gutted for you guys as it would have been pretty awesome and it was very on point. Bugger about the audio. Keep up the good work boys
Good coversation on gravel. I would add that road was slowly dyng well before the gravel (as we know it) got started. So it seems like the choices are gravel racing, or not much else for roadie type stuff. Where I'm at we probalby have just 15-20 percent of the road / crit events we did 20 years ago. But there are well-attended gravel things. Spot on though with some of the courses being far too technical and terrorizing for a roadie with middling skills. Those courses also feel a lot less like road racing, tactics don't come into play much.
I look at the effective top tube, head tube height, seat tube angle and also seat tube length as I have very small legs. This gives me the position of the bars relative to the saddle, stack and reach give the position of the bars relative to the BB. I aim for 100 mm stem as a minimum, and a not too long head tube to be able to run the stme slammed or near enough. I also check HT angle and wheelbase to have a hint about the handling.
Hi Chris, That's very exciting that the Nero Show had an opportunity to be part of Unchained Season 2. I hope you get more opportunities in upcoming seasons of the Netflix series. For reference, Netflix requires the master files, for all Netflix Original Series, be delivered in the highest quality possible (Dolby Atmos + Vision) to them by the production companies. In the Netflix content delivery pipeline, they will then down mix the streams if necessary based on the playback capabilities of the receiving device and subscription type (premium vs regular). If you use Pro Tools or Logic Pro for audio mixing, you can use the built in Dolby Atmos Renderer.
I’ve literally just been going through the process of working out what size I would be in a different bike. Thinking of going from a 52 Emonda to a 54 S5 which could work for me. Just don’t want any spacers on a S5. Also you’re bang on with Trek reducing their number of sizes. Don’t be surprised if the new Madone has less sizes than before…
25:05 I've always wanted to know the actual measurement between chain stays so i can decide how big of a tire i want to squeeze in there. This is especially relevant for gravel bikes.
I’m curious if you think air density makes a difference with the TCR and laps in centennial park? Have you a/b’d the TCR and S5 in centennial in the winter? Like are you comparing your speeds on the S5 during the summer to TCR in the winter? And I’m saying this more in terms of the full system including the rider - not just the bike’s aerodynamics. Side note - big fan of the show - have been following for years
The reason i run 28s and not bigger is because i recenlty jumped on the hype train and run 5000 TT all year now and that they only make them up to 28. They acutally last almost just as long and hardly ever puncture compared to the 5000 STR. Might be placebo but they feel significally faster.
Great content once again guys, keep up the good work. In light of the ongoing cancellation/removal of Fondo’s and road races etc that you both have mentioned previously, may I suggest reaching out and interviewing someone like a James Yaffa on your show? As someone who appreciates the opportunity to both race and ride in Fondo’s such as the Snowy Classic, I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to understand what the driving factors are behind the removal of these events and what can be done to turn the tide
Agree JC on the neoworld rubbish completely, it's a shame really. What if they did "we will take 5% cut, winner gets $10k bike and the rest goes to charity which we will be transparent about"? CM great job on the gravel result keep it up mate.
Pinarello’s tire clearance callout is VERY conservative. I’m running a measured 32.75 (marked as 30 mm, on a 25 mm internal) on a Dogma F that has a stated max of 28 with ~3 mm clearance per side with helicopter tape on the frame.
I want tire pressure chat. You are tubless right? Those Pirelli Cinturato M are my jam. I love them. I have never heard of more air is better. I weigh 86 and I run 28 or 29 psi on the front and 30 to 32 psi in the back. Zero flats ever.
Agree, I actually like their kit for the price. Own multiple of their bibs and jerseys which I use for regular solo or muddy rides, then save the few premium items I own for bigger group rides or events
I think the bike brands which has most to lose are the brands that are not being ridden on the tour. You guys should give your thoughts on whether brands like BMC etc are rip-offs for pricing their top tier bikes like the other premium brands when they don't spend marketing budget on sponsoring a WT team.
One of my friends has been a bike mechanic for years and owns his own shop now. I asked him a couple of years ago what he thought the best frame was and he immediately said "BMC". He didn't even sell them but he had built a few, and said that their fit and finish and precision were top notch, just made them easy to build and easy to service in comparison to most others. I'm sure they're over-priced anyway, but so is everything.
Gravel vs.... scariest thing i ever did was my first crit, where there was a mass flatout pile up of folk in the barriers on the first corner that had to be ambulanced off, while we waited to restart... :S Gravel risks are more under my own control..... or maybe it' comes down to what you are used to? ;-)
Back in the steel days, 73degree parallel was the stock go to. 74degree parallel was for sprinters, 74 degree seat and 73degree head was for climbers. Plus a shorter wheelbase gave a better climb performance. Now its all over the place, and you need a bike fitter to get you right. Ah the good old days was easy.
@@ivanyhtang The shorter wheelbase was got from shorter chainstays, or the fork trail. Which is more tricky owing to stability issues at speed. The death wobble.
Five years ago this month I picked up a new gravel bike (Diverge) on a Wednesday and then raced (and won) a 50 mile gravel race 3 days later. Haven't been tempted to enter a gravel race again. It seemed like the worst parts of road riding and mountain biking rolled into one. I still have the Diverge. I ride it a couple times each fall for local CX races.
A major factor I would think is inability of police to approve rides on public roads with cars in Australia. It is very difficult to meet their risk mitigation requirements. Off road events are not faced with quite the same level of challenge. First encountered this about 15 years ago with Lake Macquarie area command saying that they would not approve any future version of loop the lake that included road segments where cyclists had to mingle with cars. It killed the event. Either you had to have massive rides with closed roads like the gong ride or else you have to be on cycle ways.
The gong ride though is on still open roads with a lane closed, I wonder if the charity aspect of that ride has a bearing on the police' decision? The Snowy classic is on fully closed roads (rolling closures) so maybe it's the case of enough residents not being able to get out of their driveways for a large part of the day objecting? It would be great to know what aspect of the organising has driven up costs so much as to make it unviable to continue, my guess would be insurance (like everything else these days). Regardless, it's sad to see another fondo killed off, especially what seemed like such a successful one, albeit nowhere near the numbers of the Bowral classic. 😢
@@paulhooper9278 interesting to know, ive not ridden it sorry; a closed lane that is carefully controlled is probably an acceptable compromise but it's not without risk. Resident complaints im sure would be a factor, it was from my experience something that even proactively managed someone ends up complaining they were late to something or whatever. As it was put to us at the time approx, the moment someone gets hit by a car on such a ride is a huge problem and that the police effectively would not sign off on that risk because it's basically impossible to manage or mitigate it fully, hence you end up with runs and rides on shared pathways or closed loops of road, like a 1km foreshore or such because then you don't have all the potential vehicle interactions or at least far fewer of them. And thats fine but it's not as interesting to ride, and so then you end up with less participation. Whether the ride is professionally run or charity it really is a lot of work to do all the planning and management, like full time eqivalent almost for a period of weeks if not months and so finding volunteers to cover that is a significant ask, then the cost (some of which is invoiced in advance of the event) for police, road closures, even getting the qualified people to do parking management and traffic control for an entry point, its all expected to be done by qualified people not just a random person assigned to do it, venue costs and all the rest can be substantial, sometimes there can be reimbursement from say council for park hire or state gov tourism grants maybe but there is a lot and can reach a point where unless you have starting capital of tens of thousands, a certainty of signups like thousands of people paying north of $100 each its not worth doing. Even getting permission for unsealed roads im sure that's a whole lot of potential problems too but at least you can get so far away from humanity that there is opportunity to close the roads and not have people be bothered by it.
Based on geometry geeks, I got a bianchi oltre xr4 rim to replace an argon 18 nitrogen and the reach is much longer, even using exact same handlebars, so beware of seat setback hidden measurements. luckily the seatpost on the bianchi has a reversible clamp, but i'm now very forward over the bb (not an issue for me coincidentally). The published geometry for chosen sizes said minorly higher stack and shorter reach.
I might be wrong but I vaguely remember reading that there is an ISO standard that there needs to be at least a 4mm gap between the max tyre width and frame/fork for safety reasons.
I believe road bikes still come with 28s for the same reasons most still come with 40mm handlebars. It takes a while until these trends get picked up completely because they also have to look at what the average customer wants and those might think that fat tires are slow and don't belong on a road bike.
I think that the reach figure is weird because it is based on the distance from the BB vs were the rider is siting. So I'd think the best approach is to look at the effective top tube for the reach, but the stack figure is a bit of a better measurement for how high or low the handlebars would be.
100% NeoWorld is a scam. They're two young entrepreneurs who've done well with their brand, have gained exposure to modern business practices, and are jumping on the trend to scam people out of a subscription fee for something they won't use or win. Poor form. Unsubscribe from NeoPro. Subscribe to the Nero Show. Ride in peace.
What about sticking a set of deeper rims on the tcr like 50 or more would that help it? And if they’re still pretty light you wouldn’t loose much on the weight
My custom road bike has 42 mm tyres. I'm planning on an all-road bike with 54 mm tyres. Both bikes could be considered gravel bikes but I need those big tyres just for asphalt roads. There are tram tracks, stock grids and potholes. I don't want to be bothered by this. And occasionally I ride on a gravel mountain road.
Hey lads, Pete from the Cardigan here, interesting chat. I woulda loved to have some alternate commentary on that one, you've got a bit of an echo chamber going on there - and some interesting and valid points too. Just a little note, Auscycling's post on Plappy winning the Elite Mens RR has 623 likes on the 'gram, and AusCyclings post on Trekky's win has 1183 - not the best metric to measure popularity, or is it? Stoked you could make it down Chris, and glad you enjoyed the event.
Ski jumping is huge in those parts of the world and Pimoz was a junior world champion, so that brings him to a huge scale, also his consecutive wins in La Vuelta, before, the prodigy Tadej is, hitting the ground running and beating him in the TDF 21
just a thought.......sram and shimano choose to throw everything at gravel because parts ware out quicker and you get a better turnover overall. 105 and ultegra run for years with regular chain swaps and cleaning
Hey Chris, if you see garmin can you ask when do they plan to update that front headlight of theirs, it’s been years now. Also will you do a meet up in Frankfurt? If so can you post on your socials. Thanks!
Reach is way overrated on a road bike. Take the tcr, only 36mm from the smallest to largest, spread over 6 sizes! Unlike mountain bikes where reach is usually around 20-25mm per frame size. Effective top tube is much more useful
Yup, internal & External width......so many stock wheels & aftermarket (surprisingly) are narrow external which works against aero benefits of wider tires
@mysho6317 usually people riding on stock rims ain't even paying attention or probably care at that point. One of the reasons I always build up frames so i can put on wheels n components I actually want and optimize how I want to ride
I'm extremely curious if 10mm deeper wheels on my TCR (42 to 50) would make a noticeable aero difference, though I'm light at 60 kg and concerned about crosswind stability
Hi Chris - congratulations on your Gravel Result! Just watched the video (section on your bike). Just a question- what was the marks in you back wheel rim? Look like the rim is cracked???? 😮
I think you should go as small as you can, as long as you can get the seat high enough to get a full extension on your legs. Top tube size seems like the easiest way to pick, however if you're getting a bike with an arched top tube, you may not have enough seat post length, especially with Chinese brand frames. I have always used a 56cm, but my Trifox frame at that size requires me to max out the seat post height. I would have liked to try the next size up, and use a shorter reach cockpit. I'm 5ft. 9'', if I was any taller, I would have to go up in size.
I am interested in the tyre / rim width performance ratio's. I am guessing speed plays a role. There are a few aero companies wheels that remain old school 'wide' internal rim width wise - 19-21mm. Against this you have the wider wheels. Obviously there is a limit where the benefits of hoing wider start to get outweighed but the speed costs, but where is that line and how speed dependent is it? On a side note both Pog & Jonas use 28's, but on the respective Enve & reserve rims they blow out 30mm+. Even at Strada Pog used 28's.
I suggest the limit depends on average speed. The higher the speed the larger the aero cost of wider tyres. The lower the average speed the more important wider tyres are for descending confidence. Both on road and gravel For road: 28's may be the optimal for pros averaging 45km/h. 30's may be the optimal for national level riders averaging 35kmh 32's may be the optimal for amateur riders averaging 30kmh For Gravel 45's may be the optimal for pros averaging 32km/h. 50's may be the optimal for national level riders averaging 28kmh 2.1's may be the optimal for amateur riders averaging 22kmh
Interesting points. How much do you think it depends on rider weight? I'm an amateur but fairly light at 60 kg and running 32s seems overkill especially on wide rims that could blow them up to 34
@@ivanyhtang for a lighter rider, I would suggest 28mm is enough for road. The side forces when cornering are going to be less for a 60kg rider, and the tyre pressure required to support your weight is going to be less than a larger rider.
@@jeffservaas thanks for your thoughts! I've been running 28s for a few years although on 19mm inner width rims. I know cornering and downhill confidence would be so much higher with wider contact patch but I have to decide if I should get wider inner width wheels or go to 30s
Congratulations Chris. Well done. Love the content and your conversion to gravel cycling. You now need to tempt you boy to come to the dark side with you
Seat tube angle + stack + reach Just those 3. If I feel bad on the bike, I probably need to ride consistently some more with some mobility and S&C works on the sides.
I can't really consider Neopro to be some shining light of morality in the cycling community when looking at some of their snarky conduct on Instagram, also when considering that they're still likely making a lot of profit due to the super cheap production costs, McDonald's isn't some enlightened company just because their stuff is cheap IMO. But in saying that, I also don't see too much issue with a lottery system either, grown adults willingly partake in it, we shouldn't have to parent their bad decisions. I do see where Jesse is coming from when it comes to the general vibe of Neoworld though, just a cashgrab that takes advantage of their already somewhat vulnerable clientele. Bad look? Yeh. I personally just don't have too much sympathy for grown adults making bad decisions. Also definitely agree with Chris's take of it being "so Gold Coast", the whole vibe of the company is incredibly Gold Coast lmao.
Hey Chris, maybe you could tape an iphone on the top bar with an accelerometer app and measure the longitudinal acceleration over 5-10s and compare this against your power output? More acceleration (in g) per watt means the bike surges faster? That would be a Souplesse-o-meter.
Actually this isn't far off. I reckon it's a function of power output, speed, and angular momentum of the wheels which is a function of wheel weight, radius, and angular velocity/RPM
The 'rule of 105%' is not a strict rule. It is definitely the optimal aero setup, and at 45kmh average speeds it is important for pro riders. Silca and Dylan went to the wind tunnel before Unbound 2024, and an extra 5mm of tyre width only costs 2W at 32kmh. For many riders, who dont average 32kmh, the small aero penalty is worth paying for the improved cornering and descending grip, and the confidence it provides.
In the U.S. they seem like they're trying to make gravel races more technical ,basically MTB courses. I did one Called the Strada Rossa and it made the race Chris did look very tame!
Jes explaining the issue that most of us shorties try to explain to deaf ears: more seat post out makes a comfy ride. So no, we don't want a bike with little seat post rise.
It would be interesting to see what UAE tire is running as they are on ENVE wheels and the company came out a few months ago with their Race Day tire version which are SUPER light and scores much higher across the board than a GP5k on BBR site. That tire is only 27 and 29 for general public but also have the standard ENVE TIRES IN 31 and 33. Guessing they might be on one of the RD version of the tires.
THE #1 cycling podcast. THE only cycling podcast that holds its speed, just begs to be ridden out of the saddle and has the kind of aero you can SEE!
It’s stiff AND compliant too!
It's bombproof!
@@amf1990 There is a compliancy to the stiffness of the NERO Show!
THE #1 cycling podcast. THE only cycling podcast that holds your attention, just begs to be watched at 1x speed and has the kind of controversy you can HEAR!
❤❤❤❤❤ Thanks guys. Super pumped for what we can get to you over the next 10 days.
Glad to see Pinarello get some credit for keeping a top spec rim brake option available in the market. They also are continuing to offer several more (or double) the size offerings as other brands. Sure they are asking a mint for their top spec bikes but they aren’t pocketing all the cash. They are investing in offering the market things other brands aren’t.
Usually listen on Spotify but came here to say this: thankyou for pointing out how dodgy neo world is and how it’s just the wrong audience for a gambling company. You’re both doing the best for cycling and love that you just speak your mind
Chris is an animal for essentially trying to guess stack & reach by considering angles and heights over reading what the stack & reach is 😂
The main failing of stack and reach is that they only refer to what is happening in front of the bottom bracket,'. 'If two frames have the same measured reach but one has a slacker seat tube angle [putting the seat further back], that creates additional reach, which isn't taken into account.
ETT minus Reach. But saddle position is adjustable fore and aft which changes effective ST angle. @@checkoutmygregs
Geometry geeks is very good but bike insights is also worth a mention, it gives you the overlay of bike frames compared plus measurements.
Absolutely, bike insights is amazing, although I do wish they let you compare more than 2 bikes at the same time
Helped me choose my new ride!
I like velogicfit because you can enter stem length and angle plus height of spacers and it will tell you where the bars end up. Great for seeing what stem/spacer combo you'll need on a new frame to match your current bike.
@@thrawedyou can add more than two bikes to compare…
@@taxi9554I believe you - I certainly don’t know how to do it though. Lol
I love the honesty with which you guys deliver this channel, such a rare and refreshing thing these days. Keep it up legends. 👍🏻
Thanks man!
"what's the reach done for me lately?" 😂
This is the only cycling podcast that doesn't give me saddle sores
I also rode the Devils Cardigan (Masters 7 60-64), there is one word i didn't hear once in your summary of the event, FUN. I had an absolute ball, awesome weather, excellent surface and a great "vibe".
Chris, i said hi at the rego on Friday 😃
Your tires are faster Chris, I find that Cade does not do much research before their podcast. You guys Rock!
I find it annoying that Jimmy seems to read everything from a script, at least it sounds like that
@@jonasha8712 Its due to his size, he is only small 😂😂😂😂😂😂
“People really over complicate getting a bike the right size” followed by 20 minutes chat on reach, stack, extra large is actually a large, seat tube angle, spacers, top tube, geometry charts, head tube size, front ends etc.
Yeah. I mean the size of top tube is really enough. The most important thing is to know what is too big for you because there is nothing worse than a too large bike. Then you have like 4-5cm to aork with on a saddle and stem. Just dont go too big because it will feel awkard
Chris, great summary of your gravel experience.
As an Australian living in the California it’s been fascinating to see the rise of gravel in the past 5 years and very much reminds me of evolution of XC Racing/ events and MTB.
I would encourage the view that it doesn’t matter what style of bike anyone rides.. it’s not good or bad it’s just different, but we are all cycling that’s the main point.
My local bike shop is seeing Gravel outselling road 5:1 and events are getting bigger and very well organised. My wife and I recently competed at Finland Gravel - super fun 4 day event and have Steamboat and Mammoth Tuff also on our race list. We also ride our road bikes on the weekends in Bay Area.
Not everyone has access to great road rides living in large urban cities, and the events are super fun and cater to all groups and we all know the right number of bikes is N+1.
Lastly the price point of the average Gravel bike is also more accessible vs. super bike which is probably also a factor in the increased adoption
Gravel seems to me to be off-road fondos, a nice addition to road fondos and something adventurous and fun and challenging. And most people have to get back to work after the weekend and gravel facilitates that, maybe a little blood and dirt and tears but generally not the risk of high-speed asphalt races, thrilling but dangerous and real life doesn't really accommodate crashes and time-off for recovery. And epic to hear, Chris, that you will be joining Shane for a big Tour of Frankfurt! Show us everything and talk with everyone and hopefully get out on bikes and ride through the countryside, get lost on the roads in the Taunus Mountains. :)
If you want to know why there's so many good cyclists from Slovenia, you should come and ride here. Of course don't forget to bring your gravel bikes alongside!
If Pros are between sizes they'll go down , but that reverses at club or beginner level,they'll often go up.
That pinarello footage was premium!! I thought that was a Micheal bay production ;)
… that guy is the Spielberg of cycling content ❤
Neo pro came and took the photo of the Trek bike in the store that I work at - they came in, took the photo and left, didn’t really ask anyone as ‘head office’ had approved them. A bit disappointing considering they claim to be a community brand.
Thanks
Thanks ❤❤
Great episode.
1:23:39 when Chris closed the gap on the most avoided section by most cyclist aka climbing, then it was the proof. Chris can roll out his power more efficiently
1:27:11 precisely what I thought; I’d try deeper wheels. Cadex 50 Ultra
I have learnt that numbers may not accurately represent in some scenarios.
Good on Jesse for calling out NEOPRO's scam!
This is the best bike podcast hands down easily, minimal fluff and all honest. Jessie is based elite❤
congrats to Chris.
the level of this ep is so high. best cycling podcast
Miller! Excellent job with the Silver medal!
Thanks 👍
Gravel Nationals? Sounds like a Gran Fondo to me.
😂
The biggest thing about the sponsor chat with off-road riders is that there are no or much more smaller teams. This means riders shop around for the best deals, and brands are more likely to be on board to sponsor one rider who battles for the win instead of 11 or so guys. Also, because these events involve more mass participation, more of the cycling community sees these riders and watches them race. The elite end integrates more with the lower ends of the road cycling.
Races like the Shifty-50 Series in Vic is a prime example of this. It's a 50km mtb xc race where everyone starts simultaneously, and you race against the pros. You see them, and they are way more relatable because you have just raced the same race as them. Then they hang around afterwards saying simple things like a good job and well done builds a stronger connection with riders across the different skill levels.
I like this philosophy. For 100 meters, I can be within eyeshot of Lachlan Morton's wheel.
I and a lot of my friends enjoy gravel specifically because of the skill component, racing puts it on another level.
Jesse is just psyching himself out. Jesse would be fine on a gravel course. Just have to practise a bit and get a feel for what the bike can handle . Just go the widest chunkiest grippiest tyre you can find if really rough. And take your time in your "comfort zone speed" on the descents until u build up confidence.
Gravel descending is a skill, just like road descending. More practice, more confidence, less tense, faster times. Hard to jump on a gravel bike once a month and stay with guys riding gravel all the time. A bit like the guys that mostly ride Zwift. They have the watts, but need outside practice to tune in the handling skills.
CONGRATS Chris on the Gravel Silver. Glad You gave it a try and Your comments were instructive. Good on You😎
Gravel vs Road is like Apples vs Oranges. They are just different - full stop. There is also a range of "gravel" conditions.
The one You did looked at least a level 3 (out of 4). Mountain biker would be much more comfortable on that than a Roadie
who would excel on a Level 1 (hard packed dirt & pebbles) maybe even Level 2. After trying all four levels, I much rather stay on 1 and maybe 2 if I'm feeling
frisky.
It's fun riding both Road & Gravel with the right bike setup, good weather and road conditions that match an individual's preference.
What bothers me is the brands never (usually) include the integrated headset topcap or required cable guides in their stack measurements
Nor do they state how many spacers the bike will come with, some it’s 30mm others it’s 40mm etc
Yup, you’d be looking for “fit stack” instead of “frame stack”, specialized lists fit stack on most of their upper end frames but a lot of brands only list frame stack.
Agree that reach and stack are the two most important. However seatpost length and seat tube Centre to Top are also important to determine whether the bike may be too small
Congratulations on making it more than 5 kilometers in your second gravel race. And actual congratulations on the silver medal!!
Watched TdF Unchained on Netflix and was thinking why the hell didn’t they use footage from the Nero Show?!? I was a bit gutted for you guys as it would have been pretty awesome and it was very on point. Bugger about the audio. Keep up the good work boys
Good coversation on gravel. I would add that road was slowly dyng well before the gravel (as we know it) got started. So it seems like the choices are gravel racing, or not much else for roadie type stuff. Where I'm at we probalby have just 15-20 percent of the road / crit events we did 20 years ago. But there are well-attended gravel things. Spot on though with some of the courses being far too technical and terrorizing for a roadie with middling skills. Those courses also feel a lot less like road racing, tactics don't come into play much.
I look at the effective top tube, head tube height, seat tube angle and also seat tube length as I have very small legs. This gives me the position of the bars relative to the saddle, stack and reach give the position of the bars relative to the BB. I aim for 100 mm stem as a minimum, and a not too long head tube to be able to run the stme slammed or near enough. I also check HT angle and wheelbase to have a hint about the handling.
Maybe we’ll bump into you at EuroBike Chris! Hell of a show you both have here - a winner all the way.
Hi Chris,
That's very exciting that the Nero Show had an opportunity to be part of Unchained Season 2. I hope you get more opportunities in upcoming seasons of the Netflix series.
For reference, Netflix requires the master files, for all Netflix Original Series, be delivered in the highest quality possible (Dolby Atmos + Vision) to them by the production companies. In the Netflix content delivery pipeline, they will then down mix the streams if necessary based on the playback capabilities of the receiving device and subscription type (premium vs regular).
If you use Pro Tools or Logic Pro for audio mixing, you can use the built in Dolby Atmos Renderer.
Working on stepping up the production when we get back from EB. Thanks for the advice mate
I’ve literally just been going through the process of working out what size I would be in a different bike. Thinking of going from a 52 Emonda to a 54 S5 which could work for me. Just don’t want any spacers on a S5.
Also you’re bang on with Trek reducing their number of sizes. Don’t be surprised if the new Madone has less sizes than before…
Looks like they've moved to S,M,L,XL sizing rather than going up in 2 cm top tube increments
25:05 I've always wanted to know the actual measurement between chain stays so i can decide how big of a tire i want to squeeze in there. This is especially relevant for gravel bikes.
18:27 Slovenia also has the #1 GOAT female sport climber Janja Garnbret
Add Tim Gajser as well
I’m curious if you think air density makes a difference with the TCR and laps in centennial park? Have you a/b’d the TCR and S5 in centennial in the winter? Like are you comparing your speeds on the S5 during the summer to TCR in the winter?
And I’m saying this more in terms of the full system including the rider - not just the bike’s aerodynamics.
Side note - big fan of the show - have been following for years
The reason i run 28s and not bigger is because i recenlty jumped on the hype train and run 5000 TT all year now and that they only make them up to 28. They acutally last almost just as long and hardly ever puncture compared to the 5000 STR. Might be placebo but they feel significally faster.
Well they are very fast
Great content once again guys, keep up the good work. In light of the ongoing cancellation/removal of Fondo’s and road races etc that you both have mentioned previously, may I suggest reaching out and interviewing someone like a James Yaffa on your show? As someone who appreciates the opportunity to both race and ride in Fondo’s such as the Snowy Classic, I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to understand what the driving factors are behind the removal of these events and what can be done to turn the tide
Getting out my protractor and measuring tube angles is my preferred method
Agree JC on the neoworld rubbish completely, it's a shame really. What if they did "we will take 5% cut, winner gets $10k bike and the rest goes to charity which we will be transparent about"?
CM great job on the gravel result keep it up mate.
Pinarello’s tire clearance callout is VERY conservative. I’m running a measured 32.75 (marked as 30 mm, on a 25 mm internal) on a Dogma F that has a stated max of 28 with ~3 mm clearance per side with helicopter tape on the frame.
Great Episode Lads, Really finding your groove on here!
I want tire pressure chat. You are tubless right? Those Pirelli Cinturato M are my jam. I love them. I have never heard of more air is better. I weigh 86 and I run 28 or 29 psi on the front and 30 to 32 psi in the back. Zero flats ever.
Hilariously, the algorithm has been serving me the show reliably for ages, and I didn't know I was not subscribed until you made a big fit about it 😂😅
Well said about neo pro Jesse. I think it is a fantastic entry level kit store but as you said this is ridiculous
Agree, I actually like their kit for the price. Own multiple of their bibs and jerseys which I use for regular solo or muddy rides, then save the few premium items I own for bigger group rides or events
I think the bike brands which has most to lose are the brands that are not being ridden on the tour. You guys should give your thoughts on whether brands like BMC etc are rip-offs for pricing their top tier bikes like the other premium brands when they don't spend marketing budget on sponsoring a WT team.
One of my friends has been a bike mechanic for years and owns his own shop now. I asked him a couple of years ago what he thought the best frame was and he immediately said "BMC". He didn't even sell them but he had built a few, and said that their fit and finish and precision were top notch, just made them easy to build and easy to service in comparison to most others. I'm sure they're over-priced anyway, but so is everything.
It's only this year that BMC didn't sponsor WT team, they only sponsored Tudor Pro Team. They're likely going to be back on WT in the future.
Gravel vs.... scariest thing i ever did was my first crit, where there was a mass flatout pile up of folk in the barriers on the first corner that had to be ambulanced off, while we waited to restart... :S
Gravel risks are more under my own control..... or maybe it' comes down to what you are used to? ;-)
@chrismillercycling, I wonder if you put deep aero wheels on the TCR for those more flatter rides if it would “hold its speed” more?
Ahh Jesse just talked about it.
Back in the steel days, 73degree parallel was the stock go to. 74degree parallel was for sprinters, 74 degree seat and 73degree head was for climbers. Plus a shorter wheelbase gave a better climb performance. Now its all over the place, and you need a bike fitter to get you right. Ah the good old days was easy.
Interesting. But does 73 degrees head give shorter or longer wheel base than 74 degrees head?
@@ivanyhtang The shorter wheelbase was got from shorter chainstays, or the fork trail. Which is more tricky owing to stability issues at speed. The death wobble.
You did make the Netflix TDF I saw it
Five years ago this month I picked up a new gravel bike (Diverge) on a Wednesday and then raced (and won) a 50 mile gravel race 3 days later. Haven't been tempted to enter a gravel race again. It seemed like the worst parts of road riding and mountain biking rolled into one. I still have the Diverge. I ride it a couple times each fall for local CX races.
A major factor I would think is inability of police to approve rides on public roads with cars in Australia. It is very difficult to meet their risk mitigation requirements. Off road events are not faced with quite the same level of challenge. First encountered this about 15 years ago with Lake Macquarie area command saying that they would not approve any future version of loop the lake that included road segments where cyclists had to mingle with cars. It killed the event. Either you had to have massive rides with closed roads like the gong ride or else you have to be on cycle ways.
The gong ride though is on still open roads with a lane closed, I wonder if the charity aspect of that ride has a bearing on the police' decision? The Snowy classic is on fully closed roads (rolling closures) so maybe it's the case of enough residents not being able to get out of their driveways for a large part of the day objecting? It would be great to know what aspect of the organising has driven up costs so much as to make it unviable to continue, my guess would be insurance (like everything else these days). Regardless, it's sad to see another fondo killed off, especially what seemed like such a successful one, albeit nowhere near the numbers of the Bowral classic. 😢
@@paulhooper9278 interesting to know, ive not ridden it sorry; a closed lane that is carefully controlled is probably an acceptable compromise but it's not without risk. Resident complaints im sure would be a factor, it was from my experience something that even proactively managed someone ends up complaining they were late to something or whatever. As it was put to us at the time approx, the moment someone gets hit by a car on such a ride is a huge problem and that the police effectively would not sign off on that risk because it's basically impossible to manage or mitigate it fully, hence you end up with runs and rides on shared pathways or closed loops of road, like a 1km foreshore or such because then you don't have all the potential vehicle interactions or at least far fewer of them. And thats fine but it's not as interesting to ride, and so then you end up with less participation. Whether the ride is professionally run or charity it really is a lot of work to do all the planning and management, like full time eqivalent almost for a period of weeks if not months and so finding volunteers to cover that is a significant ask, then the cost (some of which is invoiced in advance of the event) for police, road closures, even getting the qualified people to do parking management and traffic control for an entry point, its all expected to be done by qualified people not just a random person assigned to do it, venue costs and all the rest can be substantial, sometimes there can be reimbursement from say council for park hire or state gov tourism grants maybe but there is a lot and can reach a point where unless you have starting capital of tens of thousands, a certainty of signups like thousands of people paying north of $100 each its not worth doing. Even getting permission for unsealed roads im sure that's a whole lot of potential problems too but at least you can get so far away from humanity that there is opportunity to close the roads and not have people be bothered by it.
Based on geometry geeks, I got a bianchi oltre xr4 rim to replace an argon 18 nitrogen and the reach is much longer, even using exact same handlebars, so beware of seat setback hidden measurements. luckily the seatpost on the bianchi has a reversible clamp, but i'm now very forward over the bb (not an issue for me coincidentally). The published geometry for chosen sizes said minorly higher stack and shorter reach.
More gravel content!
I might be wrong but I vaguely remember reading that there is an ISO standard that there needs to be at least a 4mm gap between the max tyre width and frame/fork for safety reasons.
I believe road bikes still come with 28s for the same reasons most still come with 40mm handlebars. It takes a while until these trends get picked up completely because they also have to look at what the average customer wants and those might think that fat tires are slow and don't belong on a road bike.
1.5 hr podcast + 1.5 hr ride on the trainer = paradise
Excellent observation!
I think that the reach figure is weird because it is based on the distance from the BB vs were the rider is siting. So I'd think the best approach is to look at the effective top tube for the reach, but the stack figure is a bit of a better measurement for how high or low the handlebars would be.
Its the head tube angle and seat tube angles effect on reach which always confuses me when comparing geo
100% NeoWorld is a scam. They're two young entrepreneurs who've done well with their brand, have gained exposure to modern business practices, and are jumping on the trend to scam people out of a subscription fee for something they won't use or win. Poor form. Unsubscribe from NeoPro. Subscribe to the Nero Show. Ride in peace.
What about sticking a set of deeper rims on the tcr like 50 or more would that help it? And if they’re still pretty light you wouldn’t loose much on the weight
I’ve been dabbling in gravel and I do feel like it has improved my road riding
My custom road bike has 42 mm tyres. I'm planning on an all-road bike with 54 mm tyres. Both bikes could be considered gravel bikes but I need those big tyres just for asphalt roads. There are tram tracks, stock grids and potholes. I don't want to be bothered by this. And occasionally I ride on a gravel mountain road.
I have just built a gravel bike with 54mm tires last week. Do it, I'm blown away with how well it rides
Future talking point: The insane prices of GCN's Subscriber "packages"
Hey lads, Pete from the Cardigan here, interesting chat. I woulda loved to have some alternate commentary on that one, you've got a bit of an echo chamber going on there - and some interesting and valid points too. Just a little note, Auscycling's post on Plappy winning the Elite Mens RR has 623 likes on the 'gram, and AusCyclings post on Trekky's win has 1183 - not the best metric to measure popularity, or is it? Stoked you could make it down Chris, and glad you enjoyed the event.
Looking forward to seeing Jesse at Dirty Warrny
Ski jumping is huge in those parts of the world and Pimoz was a junior world champion, so that brings him to a huge scale, also his consecutive wins in La Vuelta, before, the prodigy Tadej is, hitting the ground running and beating him in the TDF 21
I’m surprised so see both of you guys backing Primoz to win the Tour…hope he does 👍🏼
Gonna be a Portuguese win at the end of the day 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
just a thought.......sram and shimano choose to throw everything at gravel because parts ware out quicker and you get a better turnover overall. 105 and ultegra run for years with regular chain swaps and cleaning
Hey Chris, if you see garmin can you ask when do they plan to update that front headlight of theirs, it’s been years now. Also will you do a meet up in Frankfurt? If so can you post on your socials. Thanks!
Great question, I am hoping to get a meeting with them. I’ll put that on the list of questions.
Reach is way overrated on a road bike. Take the tcr, only 36mm from the smallest to largest, spread over 6 sizes! Unlike mountain bikes where reach is usually around 20-25mm per frame size. Effective top tube is much more useful
Tyre width Vs rim width is really big for aero. It's not as simple as wider is better
It can certainly be a lot slower on the wrong rim
Peak torque speaks a lot about this
Yup, internal & External width......so many stock wheels & aftermarket (surprisingly) are narrow external which works against aero benefits of
wider tires
@mysho6317 usually people riding on stock rims ain't even paying attention or probably care at that point.
One of the reasons I always build up frames so i can put on wheels n components I actually want and optimize how I want to ride
TCR + Cadex 50 Ultras for the chop 🤙
Leave that with me
I'm extremely curious if 10mm deeper wheels on my TCR (42 to 50) would make a noticeable aero difference, though I'm light at 60 kg and concerned about crosswind stability
Stack, reach, *and* seat tube angle are all important. I think this is often overlooked.
Omg, I’m a week behind! Bike mechanic here Listening while wrenching on bikes!
Hi Chris - congratulations on your Gravel Result! Just watched the video (section on your bike). Just a question- what was the marks in you back wheel rim? Look like the rim is cracked???? 😮
Jesse, bikes are bikes. THE BARRIER IS MENTAL! It’s not that big of a deal. Get after it.
I think you should go as small as you can, as long as you can get the seat high enough to get a full extension on your legs. Top tube size seems like the easiest way to pick, however if you're getting a bike with an arched top tube, you may not have enough seat post length, especially with Chinese brand frames. I have always used a 56cm, but my Trifox frame at that size requires me to max out the seat post height. I would have liked to try the next size up, and use a shorter reach cockpit. I'm 5ft. 9'', if I was any taller, I would have to go up in size.
Very few rims have a wider than 21mm internal. That's where you get stuck on a 28mm tyre?
I am interested in the tyre / rim width performance ratio's. I am guessing speed plays a role. There are a few aero companies wheels that remain old school 'wide' internal rim width wise - 19-21mm. Against this you have the wider wheels. Obviously there is a limit where the benefits of hoing wider start to get outweighed but the speed costs, but where is that line and how speed dependent is it? On a side note both Pog & Jonas use 28's, but on the respective Enve & reserve rims they blow out 30mm+. Even at Strada Pog used 28's.
I suggest the limit depends on average speed.
The higher the speed the larger the aero cost of wider tyres.
The lower the average speed the more important wider tyres are for descending confidence. Both on road and gravel
For road:
28's may be the optimal for pros averaging 45km/h.
30's may be the optimal for national level riders averaging 35kmh
32's may be the optimal for amateur riders averaging 30kmh
For Gravel
45's may be the optimal for pros averaging 32km/h.
50's may be the optimal for national level riders averaging 28kmh
2.1's may be the optimal for amateur riders averaging 22kmh
Interesting points. How much do you think it depends on rider weight? I'm an amateur but fairly light at 60 kg and running 32s seems overkill especially on wide rims that could blow them up to 34
@@ivanyhtang for a lighter rider, I would suggest 28mm is enough for road. The side forces when cornering are going to be less for a 60kg rider, and the tyre pressure required to support your weight is going to be less than a larger rider.
@@jeffservaas thanks for your thoughts! I've been running 28s for a few years although on 19mm inner width rims. I know cornering and downhill confidence would be so much higher with wider contact patch but I have to decide if I should get wider inner width wheels or go to 30s
I'd like 'front and centre' reported as standard. Go for gold next year, Chris. Have fun in the fastest growing city.
Thanks guys!
Our pleasure!
Congratulations Chris. Well done. Love the content and your conversion to gravel cycling. You now need to tempt you boy to come to the dark side with you
Maybe one day!
Seat tube angle + stack + reach
Just those 3. If I feel bad on the bike, I probably need to ride consistently some more with some mobility and S&C works on the sides.
I can't really consider Neopro to be some shining light of morality in the cycling community when looking at some of their snarky conduct on Instagram, also when considering that they're still likely making a lot of profit due to the super cheap production costs, McDonald's isn't some enlightened company just because their stuff is cheap IMO. But in saying that, I also don't see too much issue with a lottery system either, grown adults willingly partake in it, we shouldn't have to parent their bad decisions. I do see where Jesse is coming from when it comes to the general vibe of Neoworld though, just a cashgrab that takes advantage of their already somewhat vulnerable clientele. Bad look? Yeh. I personally just don't have too much sympathy for grown adults making bad decisions. Also definitely agree with Chris's take of it being "so Gold Coast", the whole vibe of the company is incredibly Gold Coast lmao.
1 Gravel Race...... 2nd Best in Australia (In age group). Damn Chris.
How long before Jesse does Gravel?
Hey Chris, maybe you could tape an iphone on the top bar with an accelerometer app and measure the longitudinal acceleration over 5-10s and compare this against your power output? More acceleration (in g) per watt means the bike surges faster?
That would be a Souplesse-o-meter.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I love this. Maybe that will be on the next Coros firmware update
Actually this isn't far off. I reckon it's a function of power output, speed, and angular momentum of the wheels which is a function of wheel weight, radius, and angular velocity/RPM
30mm+ width tyres only really work well on rims that 32mm+ external width for aero. Most stock bike rims are
The 'rule of 105%' is not a strict rule. It is definitely the optimal aero setup, and at 45kmh average speeds it is important for pro riders. Silca and Dylan went to the wind tunnel before Unbound 2024, and an extra 5mm of tyre width only costs 2W at 32kmh. For many riders, who dont average 32kmh, the small aero penalty is worth paying for the improved cornering and descending grip, and the confidence it provides.
Time to get Chris a propel sl!
In the U.S. they seem like they're trying to make gravel races more technical ,basically MTB courses. I did one Called the Strada Rossa and it made the race Chris did look very tame!
Can you guys talk about the new van rysel aero bike? Frothing
Jes explaining the issue that most of us shorties try to explain to deaf ears: more seat post out makes a comfy ride. So no, we don't want a bike with little seat post rise.
Is the better acceleration feeling not due to weight? How much heavier is the S5 on deep wheels compared to the TCR?
It would be interesting to see what UAE tire is running as they are on ENVE wheels and the company came out a few months ago with their Race Day tire version which are SUPER light and scores much higher across the board than a GP5k on BBR site. That tire is only 27 and 29 for general public but also have the standard ENVE TIRES IN 31 and 33. Guessing they might be on one of the RD version of the tires.
Noones running enve tyres.
On the reach comparison - how much of a difference either way is too much?