How Powerful Are Banned Legacy Cards? | Magic: The Gathering (Part 1)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ม.ค. 2023
- How Powerful Are Banned Legacy Cards? | Magic: The Gathering (Part 1)
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Part 5: th-cam.com/users/live1zCFDvqFIA8
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If you loved this video check out part 2 here: th-cam.com/users/live5d0GS3y15mM
I fondly remember when Balance wasn't even restricted. (Well I do, not so much my opponents). After it got restricted, I moved on to Stasis...
Chaos Confetti was created out of the lore of Chaos Orb being shredded. 30:07
I had a deck back in the day where I would play balance with oath of druids and land tax. Whenever things weren't going my way I would balance, and then I would rebuild faster than my opponents
The real issue with Balance is the Border post cycle from Alara Reborn. Those aren't just cheap mana rocks; they BOUNCE lands in the process.
It does produce snow mana because its a snow permanent
Bazaar was played with the already existing units that came from graveyard and Living death.
46:28 my personal favourite ive seen people name with that card in commander is "you are already dead"
I know little about Magic but I love your commentary on talking about stuff
Deathrite Shaman in modern JUND won me my only PTQ and got me into my only Pro Tour. I love the little guy.
8:49 "...to make balance more fair" could you say to make it more........ balanced?
How do we make balance more balanced?
22:32 You could use Channel + Wellwisher + Staff of Domination to have infinite mana / life / card draw / tap/untap :D
27:00 yes, a rotating unban-list would be fun, especially for those who actually owns those cards :D
36:30 Deathrite Shaman should deal with the controller's graveyard only ...
46:20 "You are already dead" :D
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant with black lotus 4x in your deck would also be very consistent, Black lotusses into pili-pala combo.
Vintage has multiple Bazaar decks nowadays. Old school Dredge that plays Serum Powder and mulligans to Bazaar is still powerful, but it's the most fragile to graveyard hate so its meta share varies depending how much sideboard hate is popular. Hogaak/Deathrite-based decks that play mana and Bazaars have a lower turn 1/turn 2 ceiling but are less fragile than Dredge. They're less popular now than they have been since Gaak first got popular but are still around. The other Bazaar deck that also plays mana is "Squeevine" which is the most popular in the current meta. It plays Squee, Goblin Nabob and Master of Death as a value engine so that Bazaar actually becomes card advantage.
Does anyone remember the unhinged chaos orb that literally says "tear this card into pieces"?
Balance land tax used to be my jam... Ahhh jade statue!
21:00 Somberwald Sage is black lotus on a creature that can only be used to cast creatures.
it's crazy what difference one more mana makes. See Arcums Astrolabe vs. Prophetic Prism (and the snow for Icefang i guess)
If I were a judge on the chaos confetti thing, I'd say I couldn't keep track of whether each piece flipped according to the card text, so can't say that anything else should get destroyed.
More legacy!! Best format! 👌👌👌
the astrolabe does produce "any snow color" snow mana is defined as any mana produced by a snow permanent.
Didnt balance abuse zuran orb to tap lands for mana then sac lands fir life before casting balance to make opponents go back to stone age with no lands?
oil counter black lotus where you tap and sacrifice then add mana equal to the number of oil counters
I play bazzar in vintage with only 2 dredge cards, both 1 copy - life from the loam couse it can be useful and troll couse it have big dredge. All else are 8 rootwalls, 4 Holow, many cards that reanimate himself (Vengevine, Prized Amalgam, Poxwalkers, Bloodghast), 3 squee to big hand, serum to mull and some of classic vintage staff - ways to remove gravehate and a bit 0 mana artefacts. Seems many names and it is, but most of my staff dont need mana so i got only 14 lands 4 of wich is bazzar.
Honestly I wish MTG arena would release like a limited format Alpha, Antiquities, and Arabian Nights... It would be a lot of fun to play in the meta that was the first editions leading up to 3rd.
My friend played a turn 1 sheoldred in commander and it almost won the game. Was the only spell she cast XD
Black lotus is best for comboing in this stuff, but ancestral recall gets more broken as more powerful cards and free spells are made as it just adds more options and advantage without the need of mana for more free counters and efficient powerful threats
Lotus, mountain, channel, fireball turn one.
The thing about using a Chaos Orb, ripping it up into bunch of shredded pieces.... if you did this at an Sanctioned event, wouldn't your deck no longer be legal since you're not using 60 cards, AND your deck list changed if you replace it with something else? I suppose if you kept a pile of spares around to sub in for the ripped up one... but that sounds awfully stupid and wasteful. :P
The monkey is not better than the shaman ? What do you think 🤔
When you've played 5-Color everyone sounds like a n00b, Chaos Orb is insanely broken, if you stack your lands to tap, use a die for tokens, etc., I play Enlightened Tutor for Orb, your board is locked, and I'm 3 away from a one sided wipe. That's a normal play, that's not a crazy exception, that's the baseline expectation. 5-Color is more ridiculous than Vintage, we allow Contract from Below, four of 'em, which makes Ancestral Recall look _bad,_ and yet Orb is restricted. Outside of tutors and P9, almost nothing is restricted in 5-Color, it's 250 card ultra-Vintage with ante and manual dexterity cards, both of which are universally banned in sanctioned formats because of gambling, and disabilities.
Errata: _Chaos Orb & Falling Star: The following text is added to these cards: "Remove ~this~ from any sleeve before flipping."_
Ruling: _Chaos Orb & Falling Star: At any point if Chaos Orb or Falling Star is involved in any spell or ability, no permanents may move from their locations in play. (Essentially, everything has a "pin" in the center around which the card can turn to tap.) This condition remains for as long as there is a Chaos Orb in play. If a Chaos Orb or Falling Star lands on a stack of cards, the following 5-Color ruling applies: If cards are stacked and a Chaos Orb or Falling Star lands on top of those stacked cards, any cards that are under that area of the Orb or Star are affected, including cards underneath other cards. Only cards that would touch the Orb or Star are destroyed in this way. [29 Jun 2008]_
PS. If you think Vintage is expensive, don't even bother looking into this, 40 OG duals and 20 fetchlands is where the manabase of every deck starts, and sorry, but non-basic hate is not a viable strategy.
Balance just has some very nasty combos.
Float WW3
Teferi's Protection + Balance = enemy has 0 lands, 0 creatures
But even more disgusting
T1. Island/plains card
T2. island/plains or a regular island card, play a signet if you can or any 2 mana rocks.
T3. Tap your lands, gush, balance. Play one of your lands.
Put that in a moonfolk deck and that will get annoying quickly.
Chaos orb being shredded I would consider it legal, but you better have a 61-64 card deck
Also for bazaar, has a lot of cards that would love it.
Deep Analasis/Basking Rootwalla/Blazing Rootwalla/Alms of the vein/Big Game hunter/circular logic/Falkenrath Gorger
one of the things people miss with consultation is that the card has to exist in the game.
I play Vintage, and always prefer brewing my own decks. I usually play extremely unfair and broken. I also like to have many different wincons just in case. I prefer homebrews because your opponents have no experience dealing with them. I also play Pauper and in Pauper I play much more fair and balanced. I have a Creepy Crawlie themed Golgari deck because I have several Mantids and 2 Tarantulas as pets irl
Lotus by itself isn't so bad, but what if I have a way to constantly replay it, or play Recall and Walk at the same time. My deck is mono colorless splash rainbow so I play 3 Dark Rituals on a lotus and use Karn Mycosynth combo on turn 1.
Lotus by itself seems fine, until you play against it.
Need to mention chaos confetti
'why is balance bad?'
2 mana wrath of god that also acts as hand destruction.
I would love to see a tournament with no ban / restriction list, I think it would be super fun to see some of the most broken decks play against each other.
30 Black Lotus, 25 Wheel of Fortune, 5 Feldons Cane. That was one of the original power play decks. Pre Force of Will, if you went first you won.
@@frankbarlow6487 but that was before magic had any rules for how you constructed your deck for match play. Being able to have more than 4 of a card besides non basic lands would make decks uninteresting and boring to watch
What about red lotus, deal three damage
with demonic consulation to mill your deck is name Abandon all hope
a pro player got mad at me because I beat him with old wimpy creatures and Unstable Mutation. He never heard of that card, and assumed I was cheating.
Imagine just HAVING 40 ancestrial recalls today...
Few greater signs of the game's power creep than the (sort-of understandable) 'maybe Black Lotus isn't that broken? Maybe it could be OK now with a little tweak?' chat. Actual lol
If ancestral recall was unbanned in commander it would suck cause it would just be another generic good card that every deck that has to play if it wants to be competitive
Wouldn't the black lotus for creatures make elves great in modern.
Bring chaos orb back for online play only. Would be fairly 'easy' to do and would be regulated by programming so no weird tricks
I think it's time to unban balance in the commander format. If you're not playing green and going against a green deck (especially simic) you can get overrun very fast because of greens mana ramp. Since destroying lands is considered a no no in commander. Then cards like balance is what gives non green decks a way to bring green decks down a notch. Just my 2 cents
I think a black lotus where the mana can only be used to activate abilities would be more than fair.
i think its safer to just not print any more lotuses they've all gone so well
With Demonic Consultation I would name Shichifukujin Dragon, which is a card made to commemorate the opening of the DCI tournament center in Japan (at least I think that was the context). Only 1 copy exists. Idk if this counts as a valid card name though. It's on Scryfall, but it was never made to actually be played with and isn't legal in any format (as there's literally only 1 copy in the world)
I mean if that were the case you could just name 1996 world champion as a card
@@concernedcitizen9208 That's actually why I think it is possible, cause when I first heard of the combo that was the example that was given (naming 1996 world champion)
Just name any banned card on the format
Oath unban would balance Tier 0.7 for the last 7 years Delver as well as Initiative
Balance is the most powerful 2cmc sorcery in the game. If it cost cmc5 or 6 it could have been balanced, many argue that it is simply as powerful as the power 9. What makes it broken is the 2cmc. On control decks it is an improved version of wrath at lower cost and more.
Okay I go, mox diamond, moxen, balance (opponent discards 4 cards before his turn even begin, or sac his land and have board wiped if he go first). Even this inefficient play is no way in hell fair. Like people sad: even if it kills a thing, you got your mana's worth. It even wipe stuff with indestructible or hexproof it is just too good to be true.
Chaos orb is brocken:
It brakes the mind of all judges in a turnament in the moment it goes on the stack.
The Black lotus with suspend is not banned?
Dig throug time got banned because every would say He have a dig in his hand and this would cause other problems
Fixing Black Lotus: add to the end of the text "until the beginning of your next turn, if you would win the game, you don't, if your opponents would loose, they don't, if they would have less than 1 life, they have 1 life, if they would have more than 9 poisson counters, remove them until they have 9."
Maybe the text would need some refinement.
On enter or crack?
@@marknezanuto, on crack.
Ancestral recall wishes it could be contract from below. Even without ante that card would 10000% be banned
Deathrite Shaman would be fine if they would have given it the cost of GB instead of hybrid GB. Hell, you could probably make all of its abilities free if you doubled its cost.
Balance decks were brutal back in the day... Zuran Orb broke it
Didn't they make some "discard your hand. Add 3 mana" version of lotus and even THAT gets abused some how?
Lion's eye diamond, yeah. Mostly you abuse it with flashback cards or you activate it with a tutor on the stack. There's probably other stuff.
@@Greg_Ulmer yea that one! thanks! i watch mana logs and they went over it a bit. madness i think was another way to use it. and yea using it after tutors are on stack was covered too. cheeky stuff like that.
@Demonkingt it's really good with echo of eons.
@@Greg_Ulmer had to look it up. that looks like an amazing compliment to that card.
Balance is very powerful in control decks, its a wrath of god, armageddon and mind twist all in 1 card
I've long Thought Recall could be unbanned in Commanders. Simply because its less OP with 3 Opponents
Deathrite Shaman mix with Lithoform Engine mix Manifold Key mix with
Strionic Resonator now people would take 8 damage with just these 3 cards so maybe thats why its band idk
Black lotus t1 lurrus of the dream den
Balance doesn't care about planeswalkers too
48:40 Question from a new subscriber who has never played MTG and only has limited knowlegde on the game. How can a card saying "grab any card from your deck" be not absolutely broken? Is the 2 mana price already to high? It is still a universal searcher, an effect that is put behind enormous hurdles in YuGiOh (e.g. Left Arm Offering or Symbol of Friendship)
Oh it's very good! But Legacy is a format with many incredibly good cards.
@@NikachuMTGLive chaos orb was way more broken when it was legal and before being nerfed a few times. It originally was ruled that if landed on your library, your entire library was destroyed(broken!)it was changed in 1999 I believe to the top card of your library and then Ofcourse now to only permanents
3 turn 1 2/2 goblins with haste. Would be annoying
The Balance + Zuran Orb combo was more potent in its day, prior to the stack. You cast Balance and both players could only respond with interrupts right then; that was the only time it could be countered. When the interrupt window closed, only then could you play instants and abilities, so your Balance was GOING to resolve once you could sacrifice your lands to Zuran Orb.
What a wild time to be alive
Even without all the degenerate combos that gave value with sacrificed lands, it was still massively advantageous to spellslinging decks. Because you use up instant/sorceries and don't put permanents on the board. Game goes Bolt, mana rock (say Sol Ring from my era), bolt, fireball for 5 on turn 3. One more burn spell, then balance. You have 3 lands in play, have burnt through 5 cards, and probably your opponent will end up with an empty hand and an empty board as well. Just top-decking reasonable-looking damage cards (at the times lighting bolt / chain lighting / ball lighting and fireball / disintegrate) and the game was pretty much a done deal.
No banlist Legacy? Add a bunch of the ante cards, which remove from your deck at the start, so you have like a 20-card deck. Very consistent!
Demonic tutor in show and tell decks would be kinda broken
Bahahaha sorcery noodles.
Card to name with Demonic Consultation: One With Nothing.
I usually trying to find balance. But its baned.
@@marknezanuto, in this case, I'm making a joke, because One With Nothing is a horrible card that surely wouldn't be in the deck and at the same time, by naming it, the person would end up with nothing in the deck.
@@thomasfplm trying to find balance is joke too obj.
Black lotus is just dark ritual but for any color 😖
And gives an extra mana
Balance lant tax and zuran orb
Balance should be unbanned
*Wheel of Misfortune on the other hand…*
black lotus into Chandra, TOD > JTMS
Make no ban list no card limit vintage.
ban only the power 9 and lets see how legacy plays out.
creature only black lotus = far easier turn 1 godo.
on the "no banned or restricted" idea. Way back when I started they had a format called "Elite" and only the 4 max rule applied NOTHING was restricted.
I watched a tournament in person that included this format, and it was the most boring thing I ever saw. All it came down to every time was who won the coin flip on the first game.
Who ever won that flip, went first, got a first turn kill easily
Next game, the looser played first and again got a first turn kill
Looser of that game played first on the 3rd game, first turn kill
Match ends 2-1, all because they won the coin flip to play first in the first game.
really an extremely boring format that was removed quickly
These days there are more free counterspells to keep some of this stuff in check.
Balance is too strong on enchantment decks
They should just print a card. Instant, U, Draw a card for each opponent you have. Instant Commander Recall.