Group c all day, i like hypercar because of how competitivw it is but those 700-900 hp monsters going 380+ kmh on the mulsanne staright and the sound was just amazing
@@stephenoxf thats grandpa in car years, it was a group C car so it was grandpa 1 year after it stopped racing XD Group C was too intense and high Development for cars to run multiple years unless they were just retardedly OP.
Nope, they never got over 380 ish kph (240 mph) eventhough MAYBE in ideal conditions it could go faster. Also it was the C11, not the C9. And also they did not put turbo pressure too high coz it would damage the engine beyond qualifications. Finally if you think group C were monsters (and yes they were) they were kind of docile. True monsters were CanAm prototypes or end Group C GTP / IMSA cars. The only prototype that truly went over 400 kmh on Mulsanne straight was the WM P88. Guess what happened to the car ? Failed and gave up after a few laps
Fun fact: The Porsche 962 never even got close to the 3:01 in Le Mans, even at a time when there weren't any chicanes in the Mulsanne Straight or even the Dunlop Chicane. It only ever got to the 3:15's. For comparison, the 963's time with the chicanes was in the 3:24 range.
The 962's high straight line speed takes back almost all of the margin gained by the 963's strong downforce effect in the corner sections and the motor assist that works from low speeds.
The 962’s got crazy speed, but the 963’s got way more downforce. Which is why it’s able to turn in the corners way faster than its older counterpart. Great race, nevertheless.
Peugeot 905 Evo 1 would eat them both for breakfast, lighter (750 kg), naturally aspirated engine (no turbo, so no turbo lag), more downforce, more aerodynamically efficient, it would lose on top speed compared to Porsche 962, not sure about Porsche 963.
The 962 was lethal down the straight but it was a lumbering brute in the corners. The 963 is more refined. That's why it wasnt sweating because the technical part of the track was where it made the gap up
Fantastic demonstration of the attributes of the two cars. The 962 is an absolute monster down the Mulsanne. The 963's superior aerodynamics and downforce meant it was glorious through the Porsche Curves.
Looking at the fact that the 962 has a way better power to weight ratio, the main differences come down to aerodynamic efficiency (downforce/drag), tyres (I'd like to believe they are period correct), torque curve and the gearbox.
trackday race? P1 GTR Zonda R Revolucion Ferrari 599XX Evoluzione etc. also you should do Can-Am cars around chicaneless sarthe, would be exciting to see cars like the 2J and Toyota 7 actually do a race.
Imagine how fun and interesting would it be to have this duel in real life, one being a NASA rocket with wheels and the other being a MAGLEV train. The fuel - tires strategy would be a game of chicken between both teams!
Porsche 962's in their last participations in Le Mans reached 370 km/h (1988), always with the "long tail" version, like this one in the video, but with the advertising of "Shell", the contract with "Rothmans" had ended.
@@THEWINDTUNNEL There is nothing golden about endurance racing now, it's all amalgamation and capital. Drivers with more money to bring to teams than talent. The cars are drab, souless clones, in a series with drivers who would never have had enough talent to drive in grp 7, or grp C back when talent was actually important.
This is a videogame, and videogames never depict cars properly. You need REAL TELEMETRY to do that. These old beasts handled a lot better than we think.
@@THEWINDTUNNEL A test with tires that have the same characteristics would be very interesting. Even comparisons between new bikes and those from twenty years ago are made with the same modern tyres. It would be much better to evaluate the real differences between the two cars, without blaming the tires
But now they look and sound more different than ever, there's hybrid cars and ICE cars, RWD or 4WD and the gap between 1st and 10th is smaller than the gap between 1st and 2nd back then. I think it's a fantastic compromise right now. That's why sportscar racing is gonna be more popular than it ever was
Of course the 963 lacks the appropriate differential ratio because of the WEC present regulations. Still i prefer the old, glamorous and insanely fast 962.
The 962 was a real race car, not some over-regulated close that looks like everything else in it's class. The new cars are just like dead fish, with glazed eyes.
Group C are faster on track with a lot of straights, but it would be another result on most WEC circuits, many people have a nostalgic blindness where think Group C and Group B was the fastest thing that happened in motorsport when it really wasn't like that.
in all these channels, you can also race a fiat panda against a bugatti veyron, but inevitably, you do not know how, the victory will be always decided at the photo finish 😁
650hp was the power of 3.5L group C, mid-late 80's group C cars like 962 were in the range of 800hp in race time and about 1000hp in qualifying trim. It's physically impossible that a 650hp car could hit about 390km/h... not to mention that "your" 962 has unrealistic way higher cornering speed... no group C cars has ever clocked 3:01... and back to those year la sarthe track was even faster than now since, lack of the chicanes aside, between dunlop bridge and tetre rouge there was a long straight instead of mid-fast speed corners like today
I dunno, get some of those engineers to tweak the setups, gears and the venturi ground effects trim flaps....we'll never know. The reality is, the 962 is a legend, the 963, it looks like all the other cars in class, and it has no soul, and no need for a real driver, hence it will NEVER be a legend.
And in reality, there is no need for the driver to be IN the hypercar. GRP 7 & C BOTH required Herculean driving skills that todays drivers just don't have.
I hated the 963 when I first saw it but it's really grown on me the more I've seen it. Caddy's still best sound and the Peugeot 9x8 best looking but the Porsche is great middle ground.
Without chicanes, a Porsche 963 can reach more than 355 km/h, and with chicanes a Porsche 962 couldn't reach 390 km/h (391 exactly by Hans Stuck in 1988)
On the track from '85, without chicanes, I think the 962 could lap a second or 2 faster. That's on an empty track, in ideal dry conditions. Now add 30 ~ 50 other cars, of various classes. Add fog and intermittent rain at 2am. Add safety cars and pit-stops and mismanaged strategies. Throw some real world random 'noise' into the equation, and I think the modern car still has a pretty large advantage. Put the chicanes back, and it's game over. No contest ~ not even close. "Which one is the more beautiful car" is an entirely different question ~
Given the 962 in 1985 actually lapped in the 3:15's in qualifying and nowhere near close the 3:01 the video suggests, the 963 would still win, given it lapped Le Mans in 2023 in the 3:24's. I think 9 seconds is more than easy to erase without the chicanes on the Mulsanne or the Dunlop chicane.
@@riccardodietrich184 The Sunoco Special 917/30 KLM legend has it logs exist that claim 2k HP on the dyno. Jackie Oliver is one of my all-time fav drivers, seen him race in Can-Am (GRP 7), and F5000 at Mid-Ohio in the 70's. REAL race cars, not these sissified driver assist garbage bins. GRP 7 was outrageous, and this generation of driver wouldn't even make it through warmups without having an end of digestive tract malfunction.
Group C or Hypercar? Which era do you prefer?
Hypercar overall
Hypercar
Group c all day, i like hypercar because of how competitivw it is but those 700-900 hp monsters going 380+ kmh on the mulsanne staright and the sound was just amazing
Hypercars. A new great era.
Group C.
Even if it lost the race, this video shows that grandpa still got it! 💪
Grandpa always speaks fine words.
@@The.Drunk-KoalaGrandpa always approved that.
Grandpa is 40 years old
@@stephenoxf thats grandpa in car years, it was a group C car so it was grandpa 1 year after it stopped racing XD
Group C was too intense and high Development for cars to run multiple years unless they were just retardedly OP.
second lap with rolling start, 962 would win
The 962 coming to Mulsanne straight
"Lemme show him with what am made of"
Then throughout the Porsche curves the 963 dominates
And then 963 goes "you're not Porsche enough if you can't beat me at Porsche curves"
@@aqiimkhairin101963 while chasing 962:
*Deep Resonance from Aqours Starts Playing*.
At the end of hp will always win on the straights, also less downforce on the 962 so less drag
Nice switchback by the 963 at the end. The hybrid power and a shorter gearing helped a lot too.
The 962 easily beaten the Alpine LMH tho.😅
Group C were real monsters. Sauber C9 was over 400 km/h on Mulsanne straight
Nope, they never got over 380 ish kph (240 mph) eventhough MAYBE in ideal conditions it could go faster. Also it was the C11, not the C9. And also they did not put turbo pressure too high coz it would damage the engine beyond qualifications. Finally if you think group C were monsters (and yes they were) they were kind of docile. True monsters were CanAm prototypes or end Group C GTP / IMSA cars.
The only prototype that truly went over 400 kmh on Mulsanne straight was the WM P88. Guess what happened to the car ? Failed and gave up after a few laps
It was a WM Peugeot that went to 407 km/h on Mulsanne in fact. They did for the sake of doing it.
@@dodenmanniskan8846 they didn't even finish the race, they broke down a few hours in because the cooling was crap. It was literally just a showoff
@@masterkamen371 exactly. They were all about to do it, a showoff and voila.
@@dodenmanniskan8846Umi Sonoda's R89C and Setsuna Yuki's Minolta 88C-V both also can reach 416kph on Mulsanne Straight.
Fun fact: The Porsche 962 never even got close to the 3:01 in Le Mans, even at a time when there weren't any chicanes in the Mulsanne Straight or even the Dunlop Chicane. It only ever got to the 3:15's. For comparison, the 963's time with the chicanes was in the 3:24 range.
Yeah I got the lap times horribly wrong, don't know what I did. Sorry!
@@THEWINDTUNNEL probably modern tyres
@@FranciscoRamirezAraya Most likely, yeah
Maybe the top speed ? Is it the vanilla 962 ? I struggle going faster than 360 km/h with it. Nice work with the cameras anyway.
track surface would be much faster and less bumpy now.
Now add chicanes 💀
the 963 would still win....
963 would win even earlier
@@RoasterOven yes i mean the gap would be huge, thats the point
there’s already a video with the sauber mercedes vs Lmp1
No
THAT 962 IS BEAUTIFUL
The 963 even beautiful
I think it’s impossible for any top class Le Mans car to not be beautiful
Yes even the GTR LM Nismo
@@michaelgriffiths7937yes even the american caddy on le mans
@@michaelgriffiths7937the 1995 GTR LM NISMO Race Car?
It’s always awesome to see how a blast from the past race car can taken on its modern counterpart! 👍 Nice video.
Thanks man!
Wish the 2000 Falcon XR8 also takes on the Vanwall on Le Mans without chicanes.
This was more exciting than the current F1 season so far.
name 3 things that arent
@@mionellessi3086 good point
When you watched F1 in the 80s and 90s like me, than you are not interested anymore in that kindergarden….
The real WEC is too, 6 Hours of Imola 2 weeks ago was great
@@mionellessi3086 watching water boil, ice melt, and the temperature changing on a thermometer.
The 962's high straight line speed takes back almost all of the margin gained by the 963's strong downforce effect in the corner sections and the motor assist that works from low speeds.
The 962’s got crazy speed, but the 963’s got way more downforce. Which is why it’s able to turn in the corners way faster than its older counterpart. Great race, nevertheless.
And more importantly miles better tyres and suspension
no shit sherlock
Low drag
What about if it was the 962 C with its bigger spoiler wouldn’t it loose its straight line speed ?
Peugeot 905 Evo 1 would eat them both for breakfast, lighter (750 kg), naturally aspirated engine (no turbo, so no turbo lag), more downforce, more aerodynamically efficient, it would lose on top speed compared to Porsche 962, not sure about Porsche 963.
The 962 was lethal down the straight but it was a lumbering brute in the corners. The 963 is more refined. That's why it wasnt sweating because the technical part of the track was where it made the gap up
Now, let them race for 24 hours 💀
With chicanes like it is now
The Group C cars were things of beauty compared to the monstrosities we get today!
They actually required drivers of great skill, not drivers with heaps of cash.
Idea Porsche Endurance evolution race
917, 917k 917lh 917/30, 936, 956, 962, 962 LH, 911 GT1, WSC 95, RS Spyder, 919 2015, 2016, 2017, Hybrid Evo, 963
wasnt there a Group C car after the 962?
@@starmaster488lol9 yeah I think so 956 or something Didn't out it down since I don't know if that's the right model
@@toro4271 yep, thats the one, 956 caused the 962 to bee made.
936 was between 917 and 956. There is even a full onboard lap from 1977 on YT :)
Don't forget the WSC-95 that won LeMans twice whilst Porsche pretended it wasn't a Porsche.
Love this comparisons of cornering vs power
Hypercars can't race in the wet apparently.
1980:s car VS modern!? No big surprise the 963 would win but makes the 962 even more impressive 🥳💪
"you can only defeat a Porsche with a Porsche"
Or Mazda 787B 😂😂
th-cam.com/video/q8-i2qots3U/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gogsI6rJfyTYtyaw
Or a jag or a sauber
@@mikelin7that implies everybody else has 200kg of extra ballast.
When Mazda Jaguar or sauber catch up with race wins over Porsche come back ... Smh
962 slowed down by the mass of the balls of the driver.
Bring out the Toyota TS050. Fastest qualifying 3:14 and fastest race lap 3:17. This year best qualifying was way north of 3:20.
Welcome to socialism visited upon racing.
That 962 on Gt7 is absolutely lethal in vr. Love it
That has to be one of the most visceral experiences in simracing!
@@THEWINDTUNNEL Try it on Assetto Corsa, you will see what "visceral in VR" really mean 😉
Would be interesting to see if the 963 had the proper gearing for the full Mulsane.
The 962 on the Mulsanne straight: ”I'ma get you. Oh, I'ma get you!" (In Roman Pierce's voice)
And in 1971 in practice the Wyer Gulf Porsche 917 LH went up to 396 km/h on the Les Hunaudieres Mulsanne without chicanes.
Fantastic demonstration of the attributes of the two cars. The 962 is an absolute monster down the Mulsanne. The 963's superior aerodynamics and downforce meant it was glorious through the Porsche Curves.
Fun fact the cars that from the abhorrently expensive last regulation set of group C (1991 - 1994) we as fast as the late LMP1 cars
Looking at the fact that the 962 has a way better power to weight ratio, the main differences come down to aerodynamic efficiency (downforce/drag), tyres (I'd like to believe they are period correct), torque curve and the gearbox.
Right on!
Great video...I didn't think it would be that close
Thank you!
Even if the 962 loses, it still wins.
The 962 will always be legendary, these cars that all look the same, and have no real need for actual drivers? Not so much.
The Nissan R92 CP would ve been even more impressive i bet.
Grupo C é o automobilismo de verdade
Speed is needed in the Hypercars more boost power
What if we change the 963 gear ratio to make it faster in the straights?
That was very good! Nice job!
trackday race?
P1 GTR
Zonda R Revolucion
Ferrari 599XX Evoluzione
etc.
also you should do Can-Am cars around chicaneless sarthe, would be exciting to see cars like the 2J and Toyota 7 actually do a race.
If it was more light weight C cars such as Peugeot 905 or Jaguar XJR14 or Toyota TS010 ?
Three great cars.
This also shows that power to weight is far from everything
Look how small and cute the 962 is. Similar as to when you compared old snd new F1 cars.
Thanks bud.
Nice. Now what about fuel consumption and tyre wear over 24h ?
The 962 would have no chance. It needs to pit way before even with that massive fuel tank
Group C. Those cars were absolute beasts.
Why are all your videos on lemans in the version without chicanes?
Imagine how fun and interesting would it be to have this duel in real life, one being a NASA rocket with wheels and the other being a MAGLEV train.
The fuel - tires strategy would be a game of chicken between both teams!
Wow, that was something.
Downforce vs. Drag.
Dude the turbo sound comes from 962c is really cool ngl❤
How about efficeny? Who can drive longer stints?
The 963 even with over half the fuel tank!
That's a close one!
962 did some bad Corning at the end and gave the victory away
You got that right. These hypercars will never attain legend status, regardless of speed. They're all clones with way too many driver aids.
Porsche 962's in their last participations in Le Mans reached 370 km/h (1988), always with the "long tail" version, like this one in the video, but with the advertising of "Shell", the contract with "Rothmans" had ended.
I find it ironic that they have an ALMOST similar name, just that the number is different.
It makes a lot of sense. Both are Porsche's weapons for a golden era of endurance racing
@@THEWINDTUNNEL There is nothing golden about endurance racing now, it's all amalgamation and capital. Drivers with more money to bring to teams than talent. The cars are drab, souless clones, in a series with drivers who would never have had enough talent to drive in grp 7, or grp C back when talent was actually important.
The fastest the Porsche 962 did in Le Mans without the Chicane was 3:15 in 1988, you're off by 14 seconds.
This shows why overtaking was much easier back then. Going ultimately fast and then slow down with crappy brakes.
Bugatti bolide vs different categories please
If the hypercar designers knew that they wouldn't run with the chicanes then they would have changed the gearing to give a higher top speed.
Game name?
Assetto Corsa
sick video. subbed
This is a videogame, and videogames never depict cars properly. You need REAL TELEMETRY to do that. These old beasts handled a lot better than we think.
Wasn't the hypercar's gear ratios too short for that long straight - i.e. its limited to 355 ish because that's all it can reach with the chicanes
Group C no hesitation
Does anyone know which sim this is
So in conclusion the new Hypercars are faster in the Corners, but slower on the Straights.
Possibly the closest finish on the channel!
There was closer ==)
What if I tell you it's not even in the top 10... 🙃
Now you have me wondering if you have ever put cars with this sort of power on Monza with the banking included. I’ll go look in a few.
The tires used in this simulation are the same on both cars? Or are older tires simulated on the 962?
Each car has it's original tyres
@@THEWINDTUNNEL A test with tires that have the same characteristics would be very interesting. Even comparisons between new bikes and those from twenty years ago are made with the same modern tyres. It would be much better to evaluate the real differences between the two cars, without blaming the tires
I wonder you accounted gear change time unless 962 you simulated use PDK
Try it on the old Spa.
No 956?
40 years of technology to gain 0.1 seconds, nice job, FIA
But now they look and sound more different than ever, there's hybrid cars and ICE cars, RWD or 4WD and the gap between 1st and 10th is smaller than the gap between 1st and 2nd back then. I think it's a fantastic compromise right now. That's why sportscar racing is gonna be more popular than it ever was
lol no
Cool videos👌
Thank you!
Of course the 963 lacks the appropriate differential ratio because of the WEC present regulations. Still i prefer the old, glamorous and insanely fast 962.
The 962 was a real race car, not some over-regulated close that looks like everything else in it's class. The new cars are just like dead fish, with glazed eyes.
"Can a GROUP C Car Beat a Hypercar?"❌️
"Can a GROUP C Car Fly Higher than Hypercar?"✅️
Can a hypercar driver be competitive in a GRP 7, or GRP C, Negative.
How did you manage to reach 390kph in the 962 on Assetto Corsa? Normally, it tops out at 360 on straight line.
try with Sauber C9 , thing is a ROCKET
Group C are faster on track with a lot of straights, but it would be another result on most WEC circuits, many people have a nostalgic blindness where think Group C and Group B was the fastest thing that happened in motorsport when it really wasn't like that.
in all these channels, you can also race a fiat panda against a bugatti veyron, but inevitably, you do not know how, the victory will be always decided at the photo finish 😁
The 963 Gearbox is for the short straight.
Group C cars always far superior against LMH on long straights.
The Aero and grip is not there for granddaddy! But he was fast anyways! ^^
650hp was the power of 3.5L group C, mid-late 80's group C cars like 962 were in the range of 800hp in race time and about 1000hp in qualifying trim.
It's physically impossible that a 650hp car could hit about 390km/h... not to mention that "your" 962 has unrealistic way higher cornering speed... no group C cars has ever clocked 3:01... and back to those year la sarthe track was even faster than now since, lack of the chicanes aside, between dunlop bridge and tetre rouge there was a long straight instead of mid-fast speed corners like today
Mulsanne straits without sicanes is anknown factor for hyper car!
Only because the rules limit the HP on the LM Hypers
To be fair, in a time attack without slipstream the 963 would have destroyed the 962. A good race and an interesting comparison either way!
I dunno, get some of those engineers to tweak the setups, gears and the venturi ground effects trim flaps....we'll never know. The reality is, the 962 is a legend, the 963, it looks like all the other cars in class, and it has no soul, and no need for a real driver, hence it will NEVER be a legend.
Pretty cool
Aero is cool!
Bro make , lmh with no hybrid speed restriction vs lmp1 . Comparison
The LMP1s are a lot faster, imagine if I restrict the Hypercar...
So, technically, if I need to just go to Carrefour and back, 962 is better.
To think there's roughly 40 years between those two cars!
Almost 40. Shows how far racing HASN'T gotten doesn't it?
Let them race for 24 hours, add F1 and LMP1 and the other Group Cs
and you got the best race on earth
You could have taken a faster group c car.
Ok but it is a Great Porsche Evolution comparison
Yeah, I wnated a 962 vs 963 fight!
Always down to the Drag Race!!! 💪
Group C is real car. Hyper car is just technology
And in reality, there is no need for the driver to be IN the hypercar. GRP 7 & C BOTH required Herculean driving skills that todays drivers just don't have.
How stupid both are technological, technology does not mean that you tamper with screens or buttons 😂
I hated the 963 when I first saw it but it's really grown on me the more I've seen it. Caddy's still best sound and the Peugeot 9x8 best looking but the Porsche is great middle ground.
Without chicanes, a Porsche 963 can reach more than 355 km/h, and with chicanes a Porsche 962 couldn't reach 390 km/h (391 exactly by Hans Stuck in 1988)
I think Porsche 962 top speed was 366 km/h in 1993 with chicanes.
@@kresimirsimunovic5333 All the data is available. The kids are lazy.
Why remove chicanes though? Just a deliberate way to bias the result.
LeMans had NO Mulsanne chicanes longer than it has.
Group C beautiful in past than nowadays.. :(
On the track from '85, without chicanes, I think the 962 could lap a second or 2 faster. That's on an empty track, in ideal dry conditions. Now add 30 ~ 50 other cars, of various classes. Add fog and intermittent rain at 2am. Add safety cars and pit-stops and mismanaged strategies. Throw some real world random 'noise' into the equation, and I think the modern car still has a pretty large advantage. Put the chicanes back, and it's game over. No contest ~ not even close.
"Which one is the more beautiful car" is an entirely different question ~
Given the 962 in 1985 actually lapped in the 3:15's in qualifying
and nowhere near close the 3:01 the video suggests, the 963 would still win, given it lapped Le Mans in 2023 in the 3:24's. I think 9 seconds is more than easy to erase without the chicanes on the Mulsanne or the Dunlop chicane.
You have to join at the game the Gulf Porsche 917 LH driven by Jackie Oliver, 😊in 1972: 386 kph !!!!
Sorry: 1971......
@@riccardodietrich184 The Sunoco Special 917/30 KLM legend has it logs exist that claim 2k HP on the dyno. Jackie Oliver is one of my all-time fav drivers, seen him race in Can-Am (GRP 7), and F5000 at Mid-Ohio in the 70's. REAL race cars, not these sissified driver assist garbage bins. GRP 7 was outrageous, and this generation of driver wouldn't even make it through warmups without having an end of digestive tract malfunction.
I would like to see this happen with both cars taking the racing line.
The theoretical qualy times are just that ;)