BUT IT WORKS IN FORMULA ONE! The Story of the Death of Group C Endurance
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.พ. 2023
- Group C was loved. Then the FIA started fiddling with it. Then it died.
Was that because of power at the FIA? Because Bernie didn't want anything challenging Formula One? Because the FIA wanted all the money it could get from both? All of the above? Let's have a look.
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As a German WEC Group C driver, this video tells a lot of truths. In the 1980s, Group C was as popular as F1. In the USA, IMSA GTP races competed in popularity with Cart Indy Cars. I competed many times in Miami. (Thank you, Ralph Sanchez, for organizing such an amazing event in downtown Miami.) Formula 2 in Europe was almost as popular as F1, with live TV coverage and many factory teams. A decent F2 car could qualify for an F1 Grand Prix). Everything went down as soon as Ecclestone managed to get control: F1 had too many 3-liter Cosworth engines left after the turbo revolution. No problem, kill F2 and call it F3000 with downtuned aging F1 engines. This was the end of F2. Even F3 was nationally newsworthy, with many factory teams. All were killed by commercial interests. There were Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, VW, SEAT, and Toyota factory teams... all got gone.
This is why nascar has such a weird points system. They have a playoff system like the NFL. They are chasing ratings and it’s not working. It doesn’t work for racing and no one likes it.
NASCAR's chase/playoff nonsense is what pushed me away from it. It's just too artificial for my taste.
Nascar gets more views then any series except F1. they must be doing something right cuz single class racing is usually very dull.
@@Frostfly source for this claim?
Nascar ratings have increased each of the last 3 years so it is indeed working
@@Frostfly Does NASCAR even have an audience anywhere outside of the US?
6:17 Thank you! The Mazda 787b being banned for being too fast is one of the most annoying myths the internet spreads. It wasn’t fast enough to get banned, it won because of a well executed effort by Mazda and Oreca that year in what is an endurance race after all. Although I did not know that they were operating under a loophole to run it.
For years Mazda at Le Mans competed under the American IMSA GTP regulation, 1991 was the first year Mazda competed in a FIA Group C category in the C2 class alongside the Sauber-Mercdes, Jaguar and many privately owned Porsche 962
Not only was it not "too fast", it was actually one of the slowest cars of the grid - Mazda completely lucked out on the 55 as they had brought one too many cars and told them "just run it flat out for the whole race" which they were 100% certain would not last the full distance
@@AdamTheMan1993 They saw little to no success in IMSA GTP with the 787b.
AFAIK the loophole wasn't being allowed to actually run a Wankel engine in 1991, but that the French connection between Oreca and the ACO lead to the rule that a Wankel engined Group C (turned C2) car could run at 800 something kilograms while the other C2 cars had to weigh at least 1000 kg IIRC, which meant Mazda didn't have to run a fragile & thursty 3.5 liter N/A engine while still being close to the minimum weight of those 3.5 liter N/A C1 cars.
The Hugues de Chaunac (Oreca owner) ACO connection still goes on to this day culminating in the ACO giving him a near monopoly on the LMP2 market.
@@armorgeddon In C2 they were invariably spanked by Spice Engineering.
By the end of his time at the FIA, Balestre basically was going around hacking EVERYONE off
Balestre's stand was a reaction to Ecclestone trying to coup F1. But JMB was never in the same league as a player as Bernie was. JMB was outsmarted. FIA was a very weak and corrupted organisation at that time. In many ways things have progressed since then but all organisations tend to get corrupted and degenerated with time ...
The world is so weird nowadays.
I can’t remember which race it is, but balestre went to shake sennas hand in the car and he blanked him
Bernie was trying all sorts of tricks to stop anyone or anything from challenging F1. He did it to CART/IndyCar, too.
the easiest example i mean can be seen with the date of the event, usually it crashes with Indy/lemans
Love the video, I only have a slight correction; the Safari Rally in Kenya wasn't (and still isn't) held in a desert. The area can be quite dry sometimes, but it's Savannah vegetation, meaning it receives plenty of rain as well as been an amazing habitat for wildlife. In fact, one of the biggest challenges of the Safari Rally can be to avoid getting stuck in the mud and/or hitting the animals.
Source: I'm from Kenya.
Love your work though. Keep it up!!!
English and the geography of foreign places.
@@AidanMillward It's an easy mistake to make. Don't worry about it though. Should be fine
goodstuff. fellow kenyan here
@@AidanMillward What do you mean you don't know what you invaded?!
@@raptor1672 he personally invaded Kenya? lol
Cool insight Hope
I think the killing blow for the WSC in 1991-92 was the withdrawal of Jaguar. Tom Walkinshaw was running the Jaguar sportscar programme on behalf of Ford, who bought Jaguar in 1989. Those Jaguar's "engines" were rebadged Ford HB engines - the same engines that powered the Benetton team...who also happened to employ Tom Walkinshaw. During 1991 Walkinshaw and Flavio Briatore managed to poach a young German driver, who also drove in the sportscar championship and impressed in his very first outing in a F1 car by the name of Michael Schumacher. And IMO sensing that they have a star on their lap in F1 Ford and TWR decided to cut their Jaguar programme and invest all resources into Benetton and Schumacher. The result was the 1994 World Drivers' Championship (the constructors title was won by Williams) before both went into their seperate ways.
Though they were miffed that their precious rotary engine was outlawed, Mazda still competed in 1992, but their "engine" was nothing more than a Judd V10, used in F1 the same year by Brabham (which was on limited live support by then) and.........Andrea Moda. That Judd engine (the GV) was also badged as Yamaha for use in the Tyrrell in 1993-94. The Yamaha badged Judd engines soldiered on until 1997, when they nearly got a race win thanks to Damon Hill's talent in the dog Arrows.
During the final years of Group C, the BRM name was also briefly revived with the P351, later retooled by ex-Pacific Racing boss Keith Wiggins (legend has it that he still can't open the bottle of champagne) as the P301 fitted with 3.0L Nissan V6. Both atteampts were suffice to say abysmal.
Yes, Bob Tullius & Group 44 were bringing improving Jags to IMSA & LeMans with the backing/ support/ blessing of the factory. He ran a couple of years then seemed to be uninvited & there was TWR. I'm not sure we ever heard the entire Story-time, Aidan?
I was fortunate to see IMSA GTP at Watkins Glen in the 80s. Fond fond memories.
Me too ! Saw IMSA races at Sears point in 1988 . It was a fantastic decade .
That picture with Belistre is always amusing to me just because the irony of the guy in the yellow shirt having what looks like the "Yikes" face in his presence, which is kinda fitting with all the stories I hear about him.
To be fair, it wasn’t all one way. Many of the horror stories about Balestre have analogues among some of the garagistas (I’m looking at you Bernie) in the internecine battle for control of F1 in the 1980s.
I always felt that all the Group C Teams should've got together, formed their own body to run the series, and told the FIA to piss off. Sports car racing hasn't been the same since the FIA interfered
Inevitably, it will require an organization to police and enforce the rules and regulations. Someone has to be held responsible for safety, organization and logistics. It certainly can't be any of the teams since that would be a conflict of interest. It needs to be a neutral body and so we circle back to an FIA-esque solution.
The second problem is how will it be considered "official" if it's not under the FIA? It will be labelled as a 3rd party unofficial exhibition or something. The fans might be willing to work with that but not the higher ups in car companies.
That's why manufactures forming their own series has always been a pipe dream.
It wasn’t the FIA! It was its predecessor, the FISA. There was a difference.
@@GloomGaiGar Exactly. Someone has to make the rules - and cop the brickbats - if there is to be any competition at all.
Umm Indycar would like to talk to you with their experience
Ecclestone had a hand in this and pushed hard for it with the FIA. He knew that the mfrs wouldn't want to spend the money on WEC and would prefer to justify their costs in F1. He was right.
Actually Jag didn't have to build a new 3.5 litre 'F1 style' engine ... They happened to find an F1 V8 engine lying around curtsey of their parent company (Ford) and dropped it into a radical new Group C car (designed by some new guy called Ross Brawn) and destroyed the field in '91.
It was THIS car which was doing the F1 style speeds at Silverstone, not the V12 (or V6 turbo) of traditional Group C.
Jag didn't race this car at Le Mans, because it was using an F1 engine. They wheeled out the old V12 for one last time, and got beat by the Mazda.
Jag left Sports cars at the end of 91 - but the Ross Brawn car did live on badged as a Mazda in 92..... and resurfaced again in 97 with the roof lopped off and a Porsche engine in the back. Won Le Mans twice.
True, they’d still have to do the engineering required to get it to last the race distances. Which is unbelievable in itself.
could you do a video on Balestre himself? he seems like such a polarising figure i would love to know more about him
I would describe him as: the angry old fart who was desperate on staying power at end of his time in FIA, yet seemed to only piss everyone off even more
but thats just view of him i've gained from all stuff i've seen.
I think the population of São Paulo won’t accept anything less than “worse than Hitler”
@@AidanMillward *laughed way too much at that*
@@AidanMillward Well, he was a member of the French Nazi division of the SS, though he claims he'd been working for the French Resistance all along. So, yeah, Hitler :P
@@AidanMillward as a "Senna isn't even top 5 of all time let alone the GOAT" merchant, Balestre was "just shy of Stalin"
That Silk Cut Jaguar XJR brings back so many memories. What a stunning machine.
Just seeing D. Bell & H.J. Stuck on that Porsche brought back warm fuzzies. Seeing J.M. Balestre,, not so much... . . .
Seeing Balestre? Brought sick up to my throat, more like it
I'm gonna laugh if the new Hypercars result in the craziest versions of the class running mainly in America. Our tendency towards high end prototypes and sprint racing make some crazy series.
Group 7 created Can-Am, Group C created the original GTP, and now GTP is back. No one ever wants to admit America ends up with the best versions, but it's already happened twice so lol
That Balestre photo is almost as meme-worthy as Bobby Moreno by now.
Might as well get my £35.99’s worth.
The F1 popularity idea has some merit. When I first watched F1 it was just another series. The Group B rally days smashed the popularity of everything. Group C was similarly thronged with people. Whilst F1, though popular, was not the ultimate expression of motorsport.
Ya think? I was as much into motorsport as anyone could be in the 1980s and Group B rally wasn’t nearly as popular as people think it was.
I've always felt the FIA sabotaged Group C sports car racing, because it was as good a spectacle as F1
Nothing to do with the FIA. It was the predecessor, the FISA.
Make that make sense 😅
Aston Martin were running V8s in the Group C era, the Aston Martin V12 wasn't developed until 1999
The 407kph car wasn't a Peugoet. It was a Welter car, with a Peugoet Engine.
It wasn’t even 407! It was 405. The claim about the speed being changed to reflect a new model is unsubstantiated BS.
@@thethirdman225 I think it was the other way round. They ran 407 and claimed 405 for the Marketing of the 405. They actually took two of!
@@TheNecromancer6666 It doesn’t matter. There’s next to no truth in it. It was always 405.
The "3.5L everything" concept even spread (at least as an idea) to Indycar in the early '90s. Once Tony George had been given a voice in hopes of appeasing him so he wouldn't do something stupid like split the championship, rumors were flying that CART and USAC (which continued to run just the Indy 500 somewhat like the ACO at Le Mans) were finally going to fully harmonize their technical regulations, and the new engine formula was going to be 3.5L, normally aspirated, 8-12 cylinders, specifically with a view toward equaling F1 and Group C in hopes of drawing more manufacturer support. Of course this was right when Ford and Cosworth had just invested heavily in the XB for the 2.65L turbo formula, Honda and Toyota were on the doorstep, Porsche and Alfa had just left, and Mercedes was about to replace Chevy as the badge-engineererer for Ilmor, so manufacturer support was hardly a problem, and the idea was shelved. Tony George eventually got his 3.5L NA formula but...probably not the way anyone would have liked.
Engineererere
You've got a real talent for this mate, I've been making videos with voiceovers recently and I've come to find a whole new level of appreciation for the craft. 👍
Kinda makes me think of Volvo running the Estate in the BTCC and then sticking a lorry engine in their V8 Supercar. Saab with their 2 stroke and Mazda's rotary.. We've had some creative engineering for the love of racing over the decades.
Great coverage as always. Thank you.
It's a good reminder. People think that MBS is a bad FIA president. But Balls-estre..... Ooooo boy......
I was a big fan of group C and I actually remember some details in the light you describe towards the end of the vid (I have not read the cookie monster article):
The master mind behind the 3.5 formula was definitely Bernie Ecclestone. Bernie was irritated by the fact the Gr C had big manufacturers (Porsche, Merc, Jag, Toyota, Mazda, Lancia/Fiat) and also Eurosport visibility. And of course Max Mosley was always Bernie's wingman. They remembered how the group 4 (917, 512) big "sports cars" was destroyed at the end of 1971: in essence by that you were forced to move in the group 6 prototype class with 3-liter (F1) engine. The claim was that having more F1 engines they become cheaper to run .... Ever heard that before? . This very much lead to Ferdinand Piëch starting despise both FIA (CSI) and F1. And of course, he had despised French (especially Peugeot family) ever since they locked his father to prison after the war. It was always an impossibility that Porsche would join F1 as long as Ferdinand Piëch was alive.
An interesting detail of how the voting was done for the Gr. C 3.5-formula. The meeting was at Heathrow airport and. e.g. Jean Todt was told he can vote by phone. Well come the time he couldn't. His vote was rejected on the base that it was not allowed in the rules. And at that time Pug was not behind the idea. Porsche certainly was not. But you are right in that Porsche actually had bigger problems in their hand at that time going fast towards bankcrupty. Their factory effort was highly likely coming to end in any case. Though they have always had profitable customer racing branch.
One important background piece of information is that the 956/962 was actually relatively economic car to race. The customer cars were built so that you did not need to rebuild the engine a single time during the season as long as you changed oils, turbos twice a season and did regular maintenance. They had excellent factory services at tracks for customers. If you took a C2 Cosworth engine you needed a complete and expensive rebuild after every so miles.
And in the end Bernie succeeded. Max was occupying the top of FIA, manufacturers started to shift towards the unbelievably expensive F1. There was no competitor in the Eurosport channel. But none of the Ecclestone journos like Saward could not change Porsche's stand even if they how tried to cry that water is dry. And on the Sports car scene there was the WSC barely surviving until ACO took a stand and developed the LMP1 and 2 which had its natural era. Now the whole sport has shifted so much towards entertainment with all the DRSess, power stages, sprint rallies, internet, TV-series and now they try the hyper car idea for prototypes.
Times change and water runs under the bridge. The best racing today is in Historic series. And I believe Porsche actually has limited will to get in the F1 today even if the sawards yell what they yell. Maybe they will but they have a strong brand that does not necessarily need F1. Also to consider is that a large part of the shares will be diffused from the Porsche-Piëch -family by going public. Family, which like any family suffers from diluting unanimity by every new generation.
The world has become such a weird place: F1 value is claimed to be 20 000 millions. Imagine what happens to ticket prices if the is true.
A new upload. What a great way to brighten up my day. Thanks Aidan.
Love what ya do brother
I love your analogies! Though, I think PowerStation UK may have had a hand in the whole 787b myth as I've said before about them posting an ungodly top speed around Gran Turismo 3's Test Track which spawned a hell of a top speed arms race using other cars, like the GT-One, R-390 and even the Escudo Pikes Peak! Over 1000kmh! I'm not joking! I think one hit around 1250kmh! As I said: mental!
I think WEC could make some shorter races like imsa does, but therefore the calander should be expanded..and it might be hard to sell those ideas to track owners. But something like a 2-3 hour race at the Nürburgring a week or two before or after spa could work out nicely
I remember a quote/saying attributed to BCE - that in his view any manufacturer coming into motorsport should only choose F1. The FiA obviously listened.....
Bernie was the FiA Head of Promotional Affairs, which means all FiA series.....but he really only bothered about F1; look at the poor coverage the other series received, compared to F1. I recall plenty of disgruntlement in the WRC at the poor coverage.
From memory, Bernie sold ISC to Dave Richards when he started the revamp of the WRC in the late 90s/early 00s.....
Group C cars.....oooooh man, race car porn! :D
So, they had a formula that was working, so the FAI changed it in a way that made no-one happy and it died. Could there be a better example of if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Ahh yes. Another vid with character. Well done Milly.
T16 😇 wheres my anorak gone now hehe awsome brother as always
4:15 The rumoured Peugeot change from 407 to 405 has no basis. The original ACO speed trap figure is 405 km/h and this is easy to find with a search engine. Secondly, since driver Roger Dorchy was adamant the ACO speed trap was under reading, I can’t see him or anyone from WM agreeing to _lower_ the figure by 2 km/h. Nor can I see the ACO buckling to pressure from Peugeot’s marketing department to change the figure. This was the WM team which enjoyed only backdoor support from Peugeot and was not an official Peugeot entry.
That said, Dorchy was probably right to question the figure since the car, in the hands of Francois Migault, had recorded a speed of 416 km/h on a closed section of motorway about a week earlier (for which there is definite proof). But Dorchy was claiming only that it ‘felt faster’.
The rumour - and it is nothing more - comes from a totally unsourced claim by one of the motoring mags (might have been Road & Track), which was really doing nothing more than posing a question, a ‘what if?’ There was never any attempt to qualify the claim and the article was doing nothing more than observing an interesting coincidence.
That it has now become mainstream and the fact that this channel chooses to promote it shows how little research people do and how prepared we are to live in state of mind where we accept as reality only what we want to accept.
In short, this is a BS claim with no proof and needs to be consigned to the dustbin.
Also the placement of the speed trap. Back then, I don't remember now, was it before Mulsanne corner or before the kink?
Nowadays it's before the first Hunaudieres chicane. And a bit too early for cars still accelerating but too late for those lifting/coasting/sailing/harvesting.
The FIA's thinking that F1 had to be the top thing while maybe not what killed Group C, sure didn't help with anything. Because, the racing is so different, that there's no reason someone can't like both and also people who like long races, aren't going to be thrilled with races that don't even hit 2 hours. Plus trying to angle things so F1 is on top, is going to hurt F1 anyways.
Another great video, Aidan. "Piss Hurricane"?🤣Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
For my money Ecclestone had a big hand in this and destroying the WTC to make sure F1 was not diluted . Both these series were too popular for his liking .
3:53: The first Brit to ever give it a try! One giant leap! Thanks Aidan!
The group C/F1 shared engine idea had its roots in the 3 liter formula change in the 60's when the FIA tried to attract more factory sports car teams to single seater racing. In the early 70's things went back the other way when sports car dropped it's 5 liter formula to 3. That actually worked out pretty good as Ferrari, Ford, Matra, Alfa and Porsche all had success over the next ten years. But as usual the technical burden required to be competitive in F1 made supporting both series financially unfeasible. Further more a good F1 unit was too fragile for endurance and a reliable sports car unit too heavy for F1, the best a manufacturer could do was run their efforts as engine suppliers rather than full teams like in the past. As for Group C I always saw the Atmo formula as Max and Bernie's back door plan to get more factories involved in F1 leaving sports car to it's fallback production based formula.
From what I've heard and read rotary engines weren't banned, just made very undesirable to use with the engine rules.
I thought how they calculated displacement was changed so that rotaries would be competing with bigger piston engines?
@@airthrowDBT Don't remember exactly but yeah I think that's what happened.
I don't know the specifics about what lead to the rotaries being abandoned, but the 787B wasn't exactly impressive pace-wise. The '91 Le Mans win was a complete fluke and the 3 cars entered were 12, 15 and 19 seconds off the pace respectively in quali. I doubt anyone with a brain at Mazda would consider a project that slow worth spending millions in R&D. Kind of like NISMO's GTR-LM, but accidentally successful.
@@StevePhoenix Yeah I know. Iirc they only really won because every other relevant car broke down or so. And also iirc at some point before the race the FIA made a beneficial ruling related to the specs of their engine which allowed the engine to be run in a more powerful state.
@@airthrowDBT if I remember hearing right, wasn't the rotary displacement supposed to be equivalent to half of the conventional cylinder engine displacement e.g. a 1.6L rotary would be treated as a 3.2L?
Did I hear that right? The BMW 4 cylinder's power goes up every few years? It sounded like it went up 200BHP (1,200 to 1400) in about 30 seconds! :D
I think everyone at the time understood/perceived that the 3.5 litre formula was simply a way to kill Group C and maybe drive the manufacturers into F1. Mosley was always in bed with Bernie and Balestre was a nouveau-Napoleon.
The 3.5 litre cars were stunningly fast, but they were never viable, which is exactly what Bernie wanted...
Thanks for making the French reference to what, at least in the English speaking world, is referred to as the "Mulsanne Straight". Viewing the historic French production of past Le Mans races always seems to refer to the legendary straight as "Hunaudieres". Maybe a video explaining the naming variation might be informative??
From what I can gather from the (English) wikipedia page, the French name for the road that becomes the straight during the race is "Hunadieres", and the tight corner at the end is called "Mulsanne" after the village near that corner. "Route de Mulsanne" is the road from Mulsanne village to Arnage village (the track from Mulsanne corner to Arnage corner, with Indianapolis corner in between). The English "Mulsanne straight" is likely also named as such due to the village at the end of it, and is popularly known enough that the English wikipedia has a note that it is called "Hunadieres" in French, and the French wikipedia page has a note that it is called "Mulsanne straight" in English, and multiple translation apps (e.g. Google Translate and Reverso Context) will translate them as such. "Ligne droite de Hunadieres" entered in French results in "Mulsanne straight" in English (rather than Hunadieres straight"), and "Mulsanne straight" entered in English gives the French result as "Lignes droite de Hunadieres" (rather than the direct literal translation "lignes droite de Mulsanne").
I'm totally imagining a current Bugatti engine in a Group C car.
Group C in Australia was basically a,class...just so happened that class included V8 production cars! It ended in 1984.
1985 saw International Group A. And the World Touring Car Championship where the Europeans drove at the likes of Bathurst whilst Moffat, Brock and Grice would drive in Europe particularly in 1986.
It's almost like the whole point was to push manufacturers towards F1.
It's not the first time the FIA attempted to use F1 style engines for sportscar racing, back in the late 1960s to the early 1980s the FIA introduced a ctergory called Group 6 where prototype cars had to use a naturally aspirated engine that were no larger than 3 litres which were used in F1 at the time such as the Ford-Cosworth DFV V8, Matra V12 and Ferrari Flat-12 in fact a car powered by a Ford-Cosworth DFV V8 won Le Mans twice in 1975 and 1980
6:58 Philippe Massa photobombing Balestre’. 😎
The ACO didn’t want to add chicanes on the Mulsanne straight either, but the FIA threatened to take the race of the WSPC calendar if the circuit modifications weren’t done.
In all fairness it would probably be too dangerous at this point
awesome video
Thank you!
Slightly off-topic but wasn't the idea of a "universal engine" also around in the late 2000s (due to the economic crisis)? The same engine was supposed to be used in various categories (LMP, F1, F3, even rallying) and the output power to be adjusted with the turbo pressure or something.
What a terrible idea that would be.
Yes, it's indycar engines for the lot of ya... Bruce McLaren tried that.
Yeah, there were plans for "FIA Global Engine", or whatever it was called - 1.6 litre turbocharged petrol engine, used in WTCC and WRC (for example BMW in WTCC and Mini in WRC used the same engine) since 2011. The concept was resurrected in 2018, as I found on Google, but nothing happened since mention of this concept by Todt.
I also think that's why we have 1.6 litre engines in F1 since 2014 (originally we would have them since 2013), but this is my conspiracy theory...
Didn't they try to do something like this in the 1960's with a 3.0L engine, except they left a loophole for 5.0L "Sports Cars" with a production run of 50 (later 25), meaning Ford GT40 Mk1, Lola T70 and eventually Porsche 917 could run. In 1972 they removed the 5.0L option and you had cars like the 3.0L Ferrari 312 PB flat-12 and Matra-Simca MS650 V12 winning races while F1 was running similar engines.
The different engines and the engineering behind it seems to really allow endurance racing thrive for some reason
Sports car racing and F1 were nothing alike, not even close. Endurance car racing were just that, endurance races, F1 are sprint races by comparison. The changes the FIA made, ruined the things that made the series what it was. The GT1 series is as close to great Sports Car racing as there's been since the death of Group C. ASCO and all the Group C teams should told the FIA to beat it, and run the series on their own
In no way am I dissing what you say and or ask.
You bring something very different and are never afraid to ask.
Guilty as charged…if Porsche isn’t in it, I’m not either.
Fans loved watching Porsche, those who aren't Porsche fans want to see their supported brands beating Porsche, and those brands want to win against Porsche. So... No Porsche no party.
Wow thank you very much.
I certainly believe this was a deliberate effort to ensure that F1 remained the number one motorsport
Bernie was kinda special. But Balestre was so national thinking, AH would be proud of him.
That bmw bhp goes up by 100 hp every year or so. Yes and we are currently at 1 million bhp. Just ask the internet…. 😂
this idea may have been good if group c was dying, but it wasnt and was going great
Have a look at the grids. They were getting smaller. Group C was becoming almost as expensive as F1.
@@thethirdman225 true, but it got much smaller after this decision to make all the cars like f1
@@SectorOne350 Take a look at how it played out. Porsche dominated for about six years, due in no small part to the fact that they sold cars to privateer teams, like Courage. They also sold engines to other teams. Then Jaguar rose and spent a lot of money to be the top team and they were supplanted by Sauber/Mercedes the following year. This had its genesis before the announcement of the 3.5 litre formula.
But again, the cost of a Group C program was about the same as a Formula 1 program without the coverage.
But yes, it got worse after 1989, which was basically when the decision was made.
@@thethirdman225 understandable
The horsepower figure of the bmw engine was claimed to be 1300 hp already back in 1986. You can find plenty of replays for qualifying sessions from 1986 where they mention it.
According to MotorSport Magazine BMW's dyno only went up to 1300hp so they don't know how much the engine actually made. Could have been 1320hp, 1350hp or 1400hp...
Anyways, this was what they saw on the dyno at BMW but they never entered a car in F1 with this level of tune. That being said the engine still produced around 1100-1200hp in qualying trim in 1986. According to Gerhard Berger this was like riding a rocket and that the tires struggled for grip. He also claimed that the tires spun when sixth gear was applied at 300+ km/h.
There's a circulating myth that BMW only used engine-blocks from high-mile BMW M10 engines. That is also false.
@@McLarenMercedes I was just disputing his statement that the mentioned power output figures of the bmw engine goes up by 100 hp every 5 years or so when in fact it was already stated to be that much back in 1986.
I'm not saying it was the real output of the Engine in quali. I'm just saying that it was already claimed to be that back then.
This is yet another example of a silly internet bidding war. Power figures and top speeds are the first things to be targeted.
It's worth remembering that Balestre ad run the ACO beofre he went to he FIA. Was there, perhaps, a wish to show that he was bigger than the organisation he had left?
To be honest, the FIA hq in the Place de la Concorde seems to do something to the brains of its leaders. They all seem to have gone somewhat around the twist!
Balestre ran the national FFSA, not the local ACO.
Todt seemed to keep his senses better than most, in my opinion.
FOCA were no better.
@@The359 Close. Balestre ran FISA, which was the forerunner to the FIA.
@@thethirdman225 No, Balestre ran the national FFSA before he took over FISA. They are two totally different groups.
Balestre sounds like he was the biggest pain in the ass to ever have to deal with.
That’s the British version of events.
I liked bmw's answer to blown head gasket on the f1 car.
I feel like the Hunaudierres comment was for me ❤
1:23 How do I not remember John Watson wearing a silver helmet? I thought that was just an Andretti thing.
I guess that you could put procar in there as well trying to run the 3.5 formula engine in all three forms of motorsport
I swear the motorsports history could be shortened to "and then FIA fucked it up". Like sure, they did some good work with safety but it seems like one good comes with 2 bads.
Sir, what about a video on supertouring car? And maybe compare them to a silhouette
could you do a video on the BPR Global GT of 1994 to 1996 ?
Cahier is pronounced how you pronounce Depailler or such. It means a notebook; workbook. Source: I'm Canadian, we brought a cahier to school every day and the teacher would tell us to open our cahier and write certain words down.
And yeah, I don't actually know how to spell Depailler's name... I've gotta get my priorities straight.
Edit: turns out, I got his name spelling correct on the first try.. thanks to the F1 broadcast snippets I've seen for getting it right, which means that you got it right, which means that I knew how to spell it.
Not bad for an Albertan ;)
@@GregBrownsWorldORacing perdón??? You think I'm from Alberta? Horrifying insult!
Lovin the sarcasm. BMW horsepower going up by 200 in 20 secs rather than every 5 years in commentary. Still the engine blocks used were recycled petrol production-car units. I also think that the 405 was the logical successional name to the 404 and absolutely FA to do with LM, as in 504-505 and 205-206 etc
They were not diesel units. The base engine design was this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M10
@@armorgeddon Of course. BMW didn't produce a 4 cylinder diesel engine for another 10 years, only straight 6. Will correct.
@@SteveDull Looks good now :-)
11:49 Not trying to visualize that 🙈
Balestre always looked like he's disgusted at literally everyone.
And that feeling is usually mutual.
And now. The story of the birth life and death of Guns and Roses and the hardcore Rock All Stars concert at 200 mph: the World Touring Concert series.
Top Fuel guy here did I hit a nerve. LOL. I have to admit that turbo formula one motors made more horsepower per cubic inch than a top fuel motor back then.
No nerves were hit, I just know how TH-cam comment sections work.
5:34 This saddens me. All motorsports are so short these days. One day it'll be the Le Mans 6x4 hour spread across a fortnight.
even racing online i had more fun in 2,5 hour races as in the 15 minutes sprints lol...GTL, gtr2, and some races in rfactor 1
Yes
main reason why i dont currently watch WEC is because how awkward it is to do so and still unsure where the best way to do it is.
Porsche leaving after 1991, this is EXACTLY what happened to WEC when Audi left LMP1.
But for company politics in the wake of Dieselgate, not for a rule change.
@@heliofaros1344 50% true. Audi was also massively cheesed off with having constant sniping of rule changes to handicap them specifically. The Audis got a lot less energy per spint then the petrols.
God I would love Group C to make a comeback.. Any engine you like, the only limiting factor is fuel consumption..
What a series that would be today
Well, LMH/LMDh is kinda like that already. I mean, the Porsche 963 is a twin turbo V8 and Honda runs a TT V6 (Porsche even ran a V4 back in the LMP1 era). I'm sure some manufacturers would run a V12 (Lamborghini) if they could make it efficient enough!
@@NineNovem Lamborghini will be using a twin turbo V8 like the Porsche 963 in their LMDh car
@@AdamTheMan1993 Ah. Didn't know that. Thanks.
@@NineNovem well not really,even tho they got different engines they are WAY more regulated than group c,such as 670 hp limit,the car should be atleast 1030+kg and other rules
@@vr5lover That's true. But a lot of that is for cost reasons. They want to avoid a cost spiral scenario, which is what typically kills unrestricted formulas.
Those C2 cars like Tiga and Spice were cool as hell too.
I was/ am a fan of Ecurie Ecosse, great class of cars.
Spice Engineering were one of the great success stories of the Group C/C2 era. Next time the Mazda fanbois tell you how fast the 787B was, remind them that they never beat Spice at Le Mans or in a C2 championship.
the Argo JM 19 was very beautiful .
The power in the Brabham was slightly down on the top HP that BMW was using because of the lean of the engine. The most powerful car was in fact the Benetton. #leanorak
BACK UP A LITTLE BIT MATE....GOOOD VID
When I'm an old man those BMW Engines will be hitting 1500 hp lol
It was a doomed concept from the start, but it certainly resulted in some really cool cars, in fact some of my favourite race cars ever despite being before my day.
Modena… Nice! 😂
Isn’t it about time you differentiated between the FIA and FISA?
I liked these arms races. It really brought innovation and smart ideas. It was not perse about budgets. There was room for creativity and strange designs. Go back to a fixed amount of fuel measured in KJ and minimum weight and some aeroregulations. Let them all do their thing that fits their "dna".
Have you experienced a top fuel grenade...... sorry dragster?
Please do a video on drag racing. 🙏
Balestre was a bit of a bollocks, all things considered.
Classic case of the BBalls
He pissed off brazil, might as well complete the set. 🤷🏻♂️
@@AidanMillward that was just cherry on top of the cake XD
This is why I have so much resentment for F1. So overrated and the "pinnacle of motorsports" status the series has is unwarranted and not based on merit.
They have had some of the greatest drivers over the years (with Schumacher being the last F1 great IMO) as well as very interesting tech but those days are long gone.
@@peekaboo1575 What? 1,000 hp cars not enough for you?
Technically Group B rally cars were banned after an accident in the Portugal rally which killed 3 spectators and injured 31.
Speed Cost Money.. How fast you want to go?
Yes.
And how reliably?
Mmmaybe?
From what I remember of the 1400hp BMW F1 engines, nobody knows how much power as nobody could measure it. The story goes that BMW's test bench could only measure power up to 10,000rpm by which time the engine was throwing out about 1000hp. The qualifying engines however rev'd to 13500 and so assuming that you are not off the end of the torque curve then somewhere between 1300 and 1400hp could have been possible, but 1200hp to 1300hp was very likely.
Or, if you had copy of the BMW documentary on VHS, you could have just replayed the part where they clearly stated that the dyno stopped at 1200HP and the engine didn't. 'Exotic' fuel mixtures based on of all things, WW2 British Spitfire mixes, accounted for about 200HP and were definitely toxic. Marc Surer stated that the qualifying engines used a 'Killer Prom' that melted them down after 2 laps. Nelson Piquet said the car would still spins its wheels at 150mph while shifting into high gear. Wizards designed the car(Gordon Murray and David North), a sorcerer did the engine(Paul Rosche) and a demon(Nelson Piquet) drove it.
@@ATEC101 I was standing near the end of Brabham Straight for the 1985 Australian GP in a track access bay within 10m of the cars during qualifying , the top cars were definitely losing traction in all 6 gears
why there's blur between 8:10 and 8:32?
Because Jag used Ford engines instead of building their own
Iets 7. All