The Worst LMP1 vs The Best GROUP C
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ย. 2024
- Can a Group C car beat one of the worst LMP1s?
Leave a like if you enjoyed the video and subscribe for more simulations!!
Check out JUST SIMRACING: @JUSTSIMRACINGYT
The physics of some models may have been modified to replicate real-life performance as close as possible.
#LeMans #LeMans24 #WEC - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
What's the best era in Le Mans history?
Current era for me, so much brand has entered in wec, but sadly Ferrari and Lamborghini can’t win
The current one or the 80s. Will see!
Group C or Hypercar.
70s
I really like the late 90s as it transitioned from the GT1 cars into the prototypes at front of the grid.
This race was closer then I thought it would be. But you can see where both cars were good at. Group C had the Horsepower and could just fly on the straights. Where as with the LMP1 had the downforce to make up for its lack of horsepower in the corners. If this was the Porsche LMP1 it would gave been a different story
Wasn't the downforce. Sauber was making 3 tons of downforce apparently at high speeds. I guess it was down to the LMP1's far superior tyre.
True. Early 90 le mans cars were pulling more than 6k lbs at 200mph of downforce. I think group c1 likw peugeot 905 and ts010 were st the record highest reaching up to 10 000lbs at 200mph. Never seen since in homologated racing. The new cars just have better tires, springs, brakes etc. But much less downforce than 30 yeara ago. Ts010 was famous for cracking guys ribs during cornering.
@@jurandspychow376610k lbs at 200 mph...
Damn.
It's not just the aerodynamic downforce, it's also the huge amount of work done on the underbody ( The thing under the car, not sure how it's called in english) compared to the 90s
@@Floryde Either a venturi tunnel or a diffuser or something, or maybe both
Aston Martin AMR-One wants to have a talk about being worst LMP1
Not much of a race when walking is faster than the AMR-One
Ha. I feel privileged enough to see that car run.
We saw the Aston Martin trailers leaving the circuit by dinner time on the Saturday. Absolute disaster...
Atleast it sounded good!
Edit: I thought of the Lola Aston Martin... The AMR-one had a turbo straight 6. Still good, but not as good as the Lola with its V12.
@@Zanionimagine if we got Red Bull X2014 Junior car against WORST LMP1 car.
How about the ByKolles P1/01? Fan favourite for being the best BBQ party.
Man the Sauber C9 and C11 have incredible sound of the twin turbo 5L V8
C9, C11, XJR-9, XJR-14...😢
Such a shame that the GT-R LM program was cancelled and they didn't get to refine the KERS.
They cancelled the GTR LM NISMO program right after they completed 2015 24hrs of Lemans i belive.
@@purwantiallan5089 They didn't even finish the season?
@@戴紀煬they pulled the plug after like a race ...
@@戴紀煬 IIRC the FWD joke of a car was taking a beating from LMP2 prototypes, lol. It was a lost cause.
@@peekaboo1575 It was running with less than half of its horsepower.
Any lmp1 would be destroyed by lmp2 if it only has half the horsepower.
i didn't expect that...
Salah! 🗣
Well, and once they test this on the track the C9 was designed to run on (aka without the chicanes) and the AI learns how to properly drive a manual the C9 would win by like 10 seconds lmfao
@@Tstahl962 if it's ai the c9 is probably not running 100% boost as well
@@houseking9211 It's not running 100% no, it was running 357kph as top speed which when I drove it on Le mans chicane layout I got it up to just under 370 before the first chicane
Group C is a monster for top speed, 400 km/h if the track allows it. Here the better top speed made the difference.
Well now here’s something that I wasn’t expecting! I mean sure we all should know by now that the Nissan LMP car wasn’t the best LMP1 race car. But for it to race against the Mercedes C9 was an interesting battle between: top speed/horsepower vs. aerodynamic technology from more modern racing cars.
I personally like these kinds of comparisons!
Thank you man, glad to see you here again!
@@THEWINDTUNNEL Of course! Always a pleasure. ☺️
That's not only a battle between top speed/horsepower and aerodynamic/technology, don't forget tyres/brakes/electronics (or do you put them all under "technology"?). The Sauber was a very advanced car but it was also responding to Group C rules, not LMP1 rules.
@@denisgicquel6454 Yes that’s what I meant by “technology”.
@@denisgicquel6454the sound of Sauber C9 reminds me a lot to Gran Turismo 4 with Mods applied.
If it was chicane-less Le Mans the Nissan would have been completely hopeless
Like all lmp1 cars
So what? If my grandma had wheels she would have been a bike 🤷
@@sepg5084 ???
@@AlexanderK9519 the 962 lost the chicaneless to an lmp1
@@Lordcamilo2 when did this happened
Yeah I knew that the C9 has the advantage over the straights. 👍🏽
A very small one.
@@amjan like 25kph? That's not small, especially considering it wasn't even running 100% boost
nissan gt-r lm wasn't that slow on straight (top speed was the only good thing of the car) but it's unlikely group C could go 360km/h at first chican in racetrim
@@giovannibalsamo6178 it absolutely can. On quali setting which is what should have been used here I've done 378kph before the braking zone into the first chicane. You're forgetting these cars were hitting top speeds of over 400kph in racetrim back then
@@Tstahl962 in qualifying group C cars used throwaway engines with crazy turbo pressure pushing up to 1000hp, in racetrim power was quite lower because of reliability issues and most of all because cars could refuel a fixed amount of fuel across the whole race so drivers were instructed to alternate full attack pace to way way slower pace in order to stay into the consumes range, generally speaking in racetime overall power rarely was over 800hp.
400km/h in racetrim were scored only by few cars like WM peugeot that purposely sealed all the air ducts in order to get that record at cost of retirment after few laps.
Long story short, in race trim top speeds of group C cars were way lower than qualifying, that's why is unlikely that a sauber, a porsche or a jaguar could go that fast at speed trap of first chicane in race trim.
this is the most goofy ahh yet the best race I've ever seen in a while
Thank you man, this channel is all about that!
By the way, the Nissan GTR-LM Nismo was 20 seconds off that year's pole sitter... Here's our video about one of the biggest failures in modern motorsport: th-cam.com/video/1ypzJJ-nbtk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=L0Qm6zYEG7L56GS6
Good lord...
Then the GTR-LM is way too fast on AC because even with battling it's only 15 secs slower or so than the just about sub 3:20s in quali by the fast LMP1s
Long Boi kept up better than I expected, its terrible at everything, thought the gap would be bigger
Well, the C9 isn't exactly astonishingly fast by modern standards, even that Nissan that had the pace of an LMP2 of the time would be close to it.
@@Starfire_Storm in a straight it's fast by any standards but it lacked the downforce to be quick around a track, by modern standards. It was designed for a time when there were no chicanes on the long straight at LeMans. The C11 got an upgraded rear wing, front splitter, and if I'm not mistaken, some floor upgrades for better ground effect downforce. But that is after they added the chicanes (because of the C9).
The C9 was amazing but it was not the fastest car in Group C, its pole time was 3:19 minutes at Le Sarte circuit on Le Mans 1989, but it was without a chicane, the fastest car in Group C was the Peugeot 905 1B which did 3:21 minutes even with chicane.
I really liked this video, thank you! It would be really interesting to see a Peugeot 905 Evo 1B against a Hypercar in the future on LM.
Would be pretty close!! In 1992, the Peugeot 905 did a 3:21.2 on Le Mans, while last year, the Ferrari 499P did a 3:22.9. So it would be a pretty close race.
@@Starfire_Storm Sure, but the track layout was not exactly the same in the first sector.
@@denisgicquel6454 Well, yes... It was quite a bit faster than it is nowadays, don't know by how much, but it sure makes a difference. Would still be pretty close.
@@Starfire_StormThe chicanes add about 20 seconds to the lap time
@@cameronmcgillivray3986 The chicanes on the Mulsanne (or the Hunaudières) were added in 1991. The lap from the Peugeot 905 was in 1992, the biggest change from then to now was a tightening of sector 1.
The straight line speed of the Nissan is very bad, that car was the fastest on the straight line, it reached 340 km/h in the race
Yes but it was a absolute shitter in the corners. the setup on this vid seems very high downforce for some reason
@@blankfiile given the way the front end looks, along with the 18" front wheels, this looks to be the visual model of the late revision car that was tearing at CoTA when the program was scuttled by Nissan.
This particular body kit was for sprint races, and was intended for normal WEC rounds, not the low down force LeMans aero package, which would have been much more trimmed down, without the big front force planes, and brake scoops.
I don't know how accurate the model of the car is for that, as I doubt anyone involved with the project has released official down force and drag numbers to the public.
because the user likely used old 2017 lmp2 physics on nissan gt-r... as you said the car had a great top speed, basically the only positive thing of that car, but it was nowhere as good in corners as this video wants to show... drivers couldn't run on kerbs because of awful suspensions and the already bad aero was further compromised by huge understeering... there's no fucking way nissan gt-r lm could get into porsche secter at 240km/h...
Now you need to run the same comparison using the identical cars but on the 1989 version of this track.
The best Group C was the Peugeot 905 evo1B, or maybe the Jaguar XJR-14 if you want to argue. The Sauber C9 was already an old beast when these two hit the track.
If only Nissan developed the car for another year and got the hybrid system working so it would be AWD would've been interesting.
Comparing group c to LMP1 is the same as comparing steel and aluminum alloys. Both of them have clear advantages and disadvantages and are excellent vehicles But in terms of value, Group C is even greater. Without that car, we wouldn't have the LMP today
a fairer competition would be 3.5l group c, those cars are essentially enclosed 1991 f1 chassis
Even the weakest of the LMP1 cars clearly shows that today's racing cars are generally better at cornering to the extent that they can bring their straight-line speed to tail-to-nose just before the checkered flag.
Would love to Nissan revive this project as an LMH/GTP
Yeah, would love to see them in LMH!
And make it proper this time
Nissan just made a mockery of the sport with their low effort, maximum publicity entries in the mid 10s.
They haven't had a serious entry since the R391 in 1999 and even that wasn't a top car at the time.
So I'm not fussed about seeing them at all.
if nissan wants to go hypercar/GTP they just need to paint an alpine red...
Man that LMP1 was bad... 220 mph touring car hahaha
Pretty much...
Such a pity this project was canceled. The Nissan had a lot of potential but was rushed and canceled before we got to see what it was capable of.
The chicanes on the Mulsanne destroy the excitement and uniqueness of the track.
Toyota GT One for me, and Merco CLK GTR, Porsche GT1... So, 90 - 2000 era.
Despite the GTR-LM’s failure, Nissan still had the best Super Bowl commercial in 2015
1000% agree
wow that's the first time i've seen the GT-R LM get that close in one of these races. Crazy how much time it gains on the C9 around all the corners.
The only Nissan GT-R LM NISMO that I like is the 1995 BCNR33.
Kinda feels like you didn't change the boost pressure or adjust the gearing on the C9 at all here. The acceleration looks sluggish compared to what it ought to be.
The Nissan when it was working properly made close to 1200hp. They obviously hadnt worked the kinks out but this car had some untapped potential
I remembered a lot that 2015 GTR LM NISMO FWD LMH was one of the 30 DLC cars that player can obtain in Gran Turismo 6.
And you could do it with another group c, i am a Mercedes fan but i have to addmit that the C9 isn't the fastest, i have seen the pole position of the World sport Car Championship and the Mercedes C11 was almost 5 seconds faster than the C9, and even i have seen the times from the 3.5 liters prototypes and were even faster, almost 4 seconds faster than the C11, this hurt but the fastest group C Car ever Is the Peugeot 905 EVO, after the Toyota TS010 and the Jaguar XJR-14
This man knows his stuff!
If you watch the last round of the JSPC at Sugo in 1991 (it's on TH-cam) you can see the awesome speed of the Jaguar XJR-14 versus the older style of Group C car like the Sauber C9 featured here.
@@mr8I7 exactly i love the turbos group c Cars, like i said the C11 is My favorite group c but being relistic the 3.5 liters are the fastest of history, but yeah, i mean, i watched every qualifying times and the Peugeot is the fastest ever
@@mr8I7 That's because non-3.5 l cars were laden with ballast when the new rules came in.
But there is no point in comparing the 3.5 Group C cars with those from the previous generation as the rules are completely different.
@@Catcrumbs- They were at Le Mans (possibly other WSPC events as well) but have a look at that JSPC race I mentioned in my first comment. Pretty sure the old style cars had no ballast there. Yet they look so outdated by the Jaguar.
Group C.
This era of Le Mans and Sportscar Racing was by far the best.
Along with the Ford VS Ferrari era.
i think if the nissan would have had the lead in turn 1 he would have created a large gap from the first 2 corners alone to make up the 0.6 sec
Good stuff.
But the worst LMP1 is actually everything ByKolles built 😂
Nah this one was way worse, trust me
imagine if group c never went away how would a group c car look today and how much faster would it be compared to current lmp1 same aplys to group B
It's crazy that Nissan actually went through with that radical front wheel drive idea. There's so many disadvantages to it but it makes for an interesting story.
Well, it's unsurprising since Group C specifically got banned because they became too fast
I will say you can hear on the onboard shots very authentic by the simulation to even incorporate the faulty transmission shifting on the Nissan.
This doesn't show the reality of it at all:
- the Sauber C9 ran its 1989 pole in 3'15
- the best Porsche 962C made it in 3'19 the same year
- Brun Motorsport's Porsche 962C was the second one in 3'20
Next year with the Hunaudières chicanes added:
- best Porsche 962C, Brun Motorsport (with the very same drivers as in 1989): 3'33
Being the faster car, the C9 would definitely have ran that under 3'30, probably close to the Nissan R90CK pole of 1990 (3'27), if not a tad faster. Game engines cannot quite reflect what these old cars were like. While many aspects were probably inferior to modern cars (autonomy, fuel mapping, tyres), the leading group C cars produced stellar levels of ground effect downforce, much more than the F1s of that era. That was ideal for Le Mans, and probably better than what modern cars may achieve.
Unfortunately that Nissan lmp1 program failed! I thought it was the coolest lmp1 and it also had a combined 1,250hp with the flywheel system!
It looked to me that the Nissan was slower but handled corners better and was also out braking the Mercedes/Sauber.
Tbf, Nissan reached 350 kph on free practice sessions.
Can you do one putting the Porsche 962 vs the Porsche 919 hybrid 2017 ?
Now put up the 1971 Porsche 917, no chicanes.
in term of lap time, the peugeot 905b is the fast group c cars in le mans.
Nissan only held up because the tech inside was better. Asides that, it was a complete excuse for a car
The C11 would have probably been a better matchup.
Does the game simulate comparable tires? Or is the C9 limited by the tire quality of it's era???
Each car has it's real-life tyre of the era
I thought the Group C Mercedes would trounce the LM Nissan, especially since this Nissan was one of the crappiest LMP cars in recent times.
Don't forget the rules are not the same and there are more than 25 years between these cars. Why not compare the Sauber with the Porsche 917??
We'll try the lmp1 TSO50 hybrid see what happens
Wonder how the c11 would do here, it was quite quicker than the c9
This is a poor comparison from a Group C perspective. Firstly if you are going to use the chicaned circuit, use the fastest Group C car that was designed and set up for that variation, that would be a Peugeot 905b or one of the 1992/3 Southgate Toyotas. Bear in mind they were 10sec a lap quicker than a C11. If you must use a Sauber it would be the C11 for this circuit not the C9 which was set up for the speed of the 1989 layout.
I prefer the LMP900 was the best era of protos for me :))
03:18 best part
Tried to enjoy this but was too distracted by the horrible graphics. Which sim is this?
Well, sorry I guess... It's Assetto Corsa. Why are they that bad?
@@THEWINDTUNNEL Oh, hehe. Couldn't tell. I suppose it may the end result of the editing, where inevitably some quality is lost. I have AC and agree that it looks great with mods. Haven't played it much since its VR support isn't that good. But good to know there are mods out there for Group C. Will have to get a few, these beasts are insane.
Lets remember the Sauber Mercedes C9 was made for a different le mans, one with no Chicanes
Both different classes.
Next time, I'd say flip it. Best LMP1 vs Worst Group C
The Group C cars definitely liked to flip 😂
@THEWINDTUNNEL I can prove this in Forza Motorsport 7... whenever I'm sideways on grass, over I go. What I means was reverse the roles on best and worst
Are they on the same tires? If not, we gotta account for the development in tire grip, the aero is also insane even for the worst LMP1
2:04 Hey! The Merc's not flying off the track!
that's wrong Merc - Group C ones were okay, CLR was the flying one
@@Patrique2001 Ah, ok thanks
@@Patrique2001 so this is the one Schumacher drove?
Yes sir!
@@THEWINDTUNNEL the start of a legend! Could you do a video of this car racing on the autopolis circuit from back in the day? It's got some kind of nostalgia
To no one's surprise, the Merc won. Obviously.
I don't think anyone could compare at all as the regulations have changed so much. Not to mention, this is a single lap. And the Nissan is straitght 'out of the box' thinking, so i'm not sure it is fair to compare it with anything, even it's own generation for that matter...
The track was of a different configuration, when he drove the C9 and C11.
This would be interesting on another WEC track then a classic track like the old Gran Prix of Miami Tamiami circuit to see how they compare in their regular elements as opposed to LeMans.
The Nissan had a lot more grip than the Group C than I'd thought it would, wow
Well, 1989 tyres compared with 2015 tyres...
Sauber C9 and Mazda 787b are my favourite Group C race cars and i love The Sauber C9 more.
laptime of nissan gt-r lm is correct but not how it got it... since the flywheel hybrid was never actually working because it was just junk, nissan picked the up the 2MJ energetic class, so because of the lowest ERS class the car had higher fuel flow values that granted much more than 500hp of your specs (realistically not less than 600hp), infact the car wasn't that slow in the speed trap of first straight, it could go 330km/h rather than just 315km/h.
On the other side your nissan is way more "optimist" about aero... I see in your video it could get into the porsche sector at 240km/h... that was just a wet dream for the real car that had poor and underdeveloped aero, terrible understeer due most of weight on front and suspensions so unstable and awful that drivers simply couldn't even run over kerbs... likely it had a better corner speed than a group C car, but not that good like your video.
BTW rebellion R13 and BR1 were lmp1 with about 750hp at LM and they were in the range of 340km/h at first straight speed trap, considering group C cars were slightly more powerful in race trim but had way worse aero, I doubt they could go 360km/h at first chicane speed trap (not to mention that they needed much more space to brake)
Did the AI nissan have a working hybird as it never did for real
I love LMP1 but group C is better😎👍🏻👍🏻
Now add the Vanwall
The longest track their race comperation i thought the group c is a old era slow than the 2015 LMP1? but could catch and break?
820 HP vs 500 HP? LOL
Dont let the AI drive the Merc, AI is too slow
Isn't the Nissan R92CP or the R90CK the best group C race car?
some of the info is switched out at some point
no chicane will be fair . i may remember wrong but group c race on none chicane version of track
Yeah, until 1990
Just curious, what made the GT-R so bad in the LMP1 class? Personally I'm a fan of it myself.
I like the LM Nismo even if it loses to the Group C cars (and of course I like Group C too)
1st Nissan Nismo GTR is NOT the worst LMP1 of all times. Thats the Ston martin AMR-One or the ByKoles CLM P1/01
2nd the Sauber is Not the best Group C. Thats the Porsche 956 or Mazda 787B
I ♥ the Sauber.
Awesome. Who drove Nissan monster. We know Michael drove Sauber
How about group c vs lmdh
You'd actually need an early 90's Group C car to compete, as LMDh cars lap Le Mans in the mid to low 3:20's, which is around what cars like the Peugeot 905 and Toyota TS010 did.
I mean its the only front wheel drive LMP1
GTR LM vs actual LMDH?? or LMH.
Well tbh, the Nissan was not an LMP1. It should have been one but the development was not even a year. When they arrived at Le Mans, there was no hybrid system ready so it was a front engined front wheel driven Prototype with only half the power and half the braking energy of a real LMP1. Also because of the then never suitable and always too cold tires the were slow as fuck... Sadly this project never had a chance, while I believe this concept was promising when taken seriously and with a certain amount of development time. I mean even without the hybrid system they were the fastest car on the straight...
The project was a joke. They never should have gone to Le Mans in 2015. They should've stuck to testing for the rest of the year and then entered Sebring and Spa the following year to get race ready.
The problem was that Nissan always wanted maximum publicity without spending the money of running a sustainable team that races for years. Hence gimmicks like the Deltawing, EZOD etc and not proper efforts at winning.
If the nissan started on the inside line, it might have won
Does anybody know what game this is, and if the cars are mods or not?
How much horsepower does this version of the nissan have?
500+ like irl?
Exactly, the electric motors weren't used
@@THEWINDTUNNEL noice, but with the electric motors that would actually work..... unlike mhm mhm some event that happened, it would be a 1200 hp monster
What game have you used?
Asetoo Corsa
I don’t care. To me it’s the Sauber all day…
The fastest Group C car was the Peugeot 905 Bis if I'm not mistaken
You are. We're not talking about cornering speed, but *straight* speed
@@matholvr If it's straight line speed were talking about then it's the Peugeot P88 reaching a top speed of 405 km/h
P.S laptimes matter more than just straight line speed
@@notorioushkm97 5 km/h difference… and the track used in the video is a high speed one. I'm not a kid, so mind your tongue with me.
@@notorioushkm97 It was not a Peugeot but a WM Peugeot (Peugeot engine). And there was no chicane in the "Ligne droite des Hunaudières", or "Mulsanne Straight" as it is called in english. The WM had no chance against the Porsche/Jaguar/Mercedes but the small car manufacturer has always produced very fast car (just have a look at the first 2 laps of the 1984 event) and decided to concentrate their effort on top speed.
The car reached 407 kph but it was the value of 405 kph which was recorded (because Peugeaot was launching its 405 car). But the Mercedes also broke the 400 kph value.
Jesus that was close 😮
isn't Peugeot 905 or Toyota TS010 the best Group C car? 3:44 is way to slow for the best group C car. 3:24 is more closely :)
Please for the love of god stop the voiceover
C9 would be far ahead
Swear these races always go down to the wire
That's the aim!
The worst F1 (Life L190) vs. Current F4 or F3.
I would like to see Life vs some older F1 car
Maybe Lotus 49, it may actually beat the Life which would be embarrasing
@ForzaPoilska06 i think theyve done that
I thought the C11 is better.