Out of context: Gohans Latino voice actor passed away yesterday just want to tell you guys life can end just like that so enjoy every minute and every second we live.
My condolences. I know, voice actors can be treasures. At least in certain countries, many people still seem to have no idea about that. And how great and important some voice performances can be for the media of art. And I know all about how life can just end like that, because my mom...... Lets all just pray and send out our thoughts to the English guy who spoke for Frieza. What was his name again, Chis Ayres? I seriously just say stuff from memory here now, but I´ve heard he´s very ill and actually a very close friend to Geekdom101. He could probably tell you a lot more about that than I can.......
I just thought about, you said GOHAN´S voice actor, I´m sure you meant adult Gohan, right? Because German kid Gohan was actually also dubbed by a pretty awesome and talented young boy at the time and it would be even more brutal to hear that that voice actor was actually also still relatively young when he died.....
Wait a min. Goku at SSJ3 during Kid Buu wasn’t able to go all out. He was trying to get max power but he literally lost his energy trying to hold the form. When he was dead, it was easier to hold. So when Goku said he could’ve defeated Fat Buu but struggled with Kid Buu...it makes sense.
@Martin Ramirez lol hell no. It took Vegito to deal with Buuhan. Not to mention he's literally made up of Ultimate Gohan and many other warriors. Ultimate Gohan alone was stronger than Goku and Vegeta
Biggest cop out in Anime history: Gohan’s hidden potential. No matter how many times he unlocks it, the hidden potential keeps respawing to be unlocked once more.
First things first, potential grows with you. No matter how much a kid trains they wont have as big a muscles as the same kid older. Guru unlocked Kid Gohan's potential at the time, years later he's obviously going to have an older and more able body with which to get stronger, ergo more potential - being how he reached his limit in Cell Saga. Elder Kai didn't even unlock his potential at the time he did his whole 'beyond your limits' deal, he unlocked the limits of the potential and his SSJ forms and beyond his limit. It's not just 'oh he has potential unlocked, ope missed some'. It would't make any sense if a 5 year old had his potential unlocked and then didn't have more when his physical body actually grows.
Goku had the best gains in the Buu arc. He learned so much and gained two forms in seven years. If Super Saiyan 3 wasn't enough, Goku was dying to become Gogeta if Vegeta just played things smart.
The buu saga saw the least amount of power increase compared to the frieza and cell arcs. I mean ssj3 goku was barely a bit over 4 times more powerful than ssj2 gohan, and he couldn't even keep that transformation for too long.
I believe Vegeta was really disappointed at Gohan at the beginning of the Buu saga for waisting his potential the way he did. I'm not saying Gohan wasted it he just went another way with it which is intelligence, but to a full blooded Saiyan like Vegeta he took it personally. It also shows that Vegeta actually does care about even Goku's kids.
Well, Vegeta attacking Cell after Trunks getting killed by that Death Beam was the first real indication that he actually does care about people, which is the truth in contrast to the lie he believed, that there's nothing more important to him than the pursuit of power. But, of course, Vegeta was still stuck in his masculine and prideful ideals to fully admit it. And I guess after Vegeta was saved by Gohan when Cell tried to kill him, maybe he felt some form of gratitude towards Gohan and Vegeta probably feels disgusted that he let all that power go to waste.
@@imjustadog1897 I wouldn't say that. SPC and SSJ2 CG Gohan were only surpassed by Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku and nothing indicates they were THAT much stronger than them. SPC should still be a hard fight for SSJ2 Buu saga Goku.
@@jamainegardner4193 If Goku and Vegeta claim that they're stronger than Cell arc Gohan, that would mean that their Super Saiyan 2 forms are stronger than Gohan's when he defeated Cell. It wouldn't be an easy fight, but warming up at ss2, then finishing Cell at ss3 wouldn't take as long as it took Gohan to finish Cell.
I wish SSJ3 had been the final transformation, at least until the fight with Jiren. It just seems like such an underused form, and the ones after that just feel like SSJ1 with different hair colors. Ultra Instinct would have been much more meaningful as a long gray hair upgraded version of SSJ3.
They mention cell gets a zenkai in the video. He wouldn't get a zenkai after the Senzu tho because he was not near death. Saiyans or those with Saiyan DNA don't get a zenkai every time they are rejuvenated, they have to have been close to death then rejuvenated
@@anthonygonzalez2897 After the Instant Transmission Kamehameha that Goku blasted him with, he grew back and I believe that was the boost not the Senzu
Power levels might have been a bit of a handicap for Dragonball, but I see it as a boon for the show overall. Power levels have allowed the show to be constantly talked about in the years between DBGT and the Tarble movie ("Yo! Son Goku and his friends", right?) Power levels also allowed channels like this to exist where we can all come together and discuss who is stronger in later sagas based on a concept that was abandoned in the middle of the series.
Yeah I don't buy that..ssj2 is a 2 times multiplier itself. It makes more sense to think of it as Cell was a step above Goku. So like 25%. I just mean like a form above like 2nd grade. Or freeza vs ssj Goku. It s massive but not 2 times more powerful massive. Plus both cell and Gohan do get boosts afterwards. Ssj2 Gohan is definitely more than twice as strong. And still managed to kill cell after the boost. There's no exact numbers but I'm looking at what are similar scenarios. And freeza vs Goku is probably the closest one. Followed by like grade 2 to grade 3 or 4. Yeah they're massive but they weren't 2 times an ssj.
Guys, I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that vegeta was above kid ssj2 gohan before the majin boost? Both him and goku never say that they are above that version of gohan, they just complain about the current gohan who hasnt trained for 7 years, has no rage boost and has generally gone soft during the peaceful time. Majin vegeta however is clearly confirmed to have surpassed ssj2 kid gohan. Vegeta even speculates that if the current out of shape gohan got angry he could probably take him. There's a reason toriyama is telling us this, it's to tell the audience that an angry version of adult gohan is still very relevant, just like when majin vegeta announces that goku is atleast stronger then gohan now is a direct confirmation from toriyama that this level of fighters are now above the ones we saw 7 years ago. Vegeta literally gets the majin boost to try and reach that level, I don't get how people wash over this. Plus as you stated gohan didn't even try against cell, we have no idea how far he could have taken it if he wanted to.
I always thought goku was more like 70 % of cells power level. 30 % is alot. I'm mean alot. If you are 30 % stronger than someone you should straight beat the fuck out of them
According to El Manga Legendario, Shin is equal to Super Saiyan Cell Games Goku. “Se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game.” Yet Shin is shitting himself when Babidi’s minions show up. Vegeta in base stomped Pui-Pui, and Goku is of course stronger than Vegeta. Yet Shin was shocked at Vegeta’s base power. Dabura stated that Yakon is strong enough to kill everyone there, despite knowing Shin’s power, so Goku got AT LEAST 50x stronger in the seven years.
Great video. I couldn't contact you on Twitter, but I released my HxH 1999 v 2011 several days ago, and am at work making my Chimera Ant review to release within 1-2 months.
Their SS2 forms were only stronger than injured SS2 Kid Gohan. MAYBE they were in the realm of uninjured SS2 Kid Gohan, but their assessments were based on what they saw and felt, at that time. We don't know how much power, he was holding back, before his left arm, was damaged. He was literally toying with bug man.Let's be honest Gohan was a str8 up menace as a kid.
Hey Laughing Stock, I noticed an issue with a statement you said. Vegeta in base was actually stronger than Goku and Gohan in the Cell Saga from the first time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Goku spent half of his time training Gohan and the other to find Full Power Super Saiyan(or Mastered Super Saiyan). Vegeta and Trunks trained the entire time and Vegeta went in the second time. Meaning Goku Grew even stronger then you guys are giving him credit for.
Goku and Gohan were far stronger in base than Vegeta was. Unlike Grade 2/3, Full Power Super Saiyan isn't a different multiplier from Grade 1. It allows for greater suppression and minimal energy drain. It also removed the rage filled mental state, which is why Goku and Gohan were so calm when exiting the chamber.
"Talk about immasculation." "He sells his soul then Goku still gets multiple times stronger" "Yeah and he holds back during their fight just to make him think he stands a chance" Guys come on...you realize these statements in reality make Goku look that much more inferior against Vegeta because in reality, like how the fight went, if Goku and Vegeta are on the same level *Vegeta wins* . Had Vegeta died and had the same *insane bonus of training in death with essentially limitless energy for 7 years* the same as Goku did and they fought then, I think the battle would still be the same as SSJ2 Vegeta vs. SSJ2 Goku.
JustinWolf93 yeah because Goku trying to call a truce and Vegeta capitalising on that clearly means he’s the better fighter. He never won the fight and openly admitted he needed the majin amp to equal Goku’s SS2. We’ve even seen them fight on equal power levels and they’re just that equal.
Isn't the idea that in U7 saiyans never made use of their zenkais properly because their soldiers were treated like cannon fodder for the frieza force and even before then, plus they abused the Ape form to conquer. But in U6 they lack tails, so never could abuse said form, and are more compassionate so they save injured saiyans allowing zenkais to take effect. I can imagine over millennia that it adds up, with each generation being stronger than the last.
Aaron Warburton Ah i see. Sorry for growing up thinking "saiyans get stronger after EVERY fight". All this retconning and changing makes me wish we had good writers.
@@mrJalisco70 Can't argue with that. Better explanations and storytelling would really enhance Super. It's not fun having to 'figure stuff out' because the writer didn't explain it.
I think he may have become 30 to 40% stronger than he was in Cell Saga considering that In Buu Saga, Goku needed Ssj2 to be stronger than Ssj2 Gohan from Cell Saga). And at the time, Ssj Gohan(Cell Saga), wasn't that much stronger than Ssj Goku(Cell Saga).
@@dreamcore7 I respect your opinion, but I don't agree man. Goku needed Ssj2 to be stronger than the Ssj2 Gohan from Cell Saga. Back in Cell Saga, Ssj Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Ssj Goku, and considering that the Ssj2 is only two times stronger than Ssj, going by logic, Goku in Buu Saga, could not even have been two times as strong as he was in Cell Saga. That's why I think he got 30/40% stronger in Buu Saga in comparasion to Cell Saga.
Only 30-40% stronger with 7 years of training?? Firstly, after Perfect Cell gets a zenkai boost and unlocks SSJ2, Super Perfect Cell is still only equal if not a little less than as powerful as SSJ2 Gohan, which would mean SSJ Gohan would be stronger than Perfect Cell, and Perfect Cell was stronger than Goku. Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell > Goku. So Gohan was more than just a little bit stronger than Goku, the difference was pretty significant. You're ignoring that Gohan would have gotten an immense power boost when he became enraged and finally fully let go completely independant of the additional SSJ2 multipler. Gohan's normal base power wasn't that much stronger than Goku during Cell Tournament (although even then it was still at least a little bit greater than Goku's), but his true power was immensely higher than Goku. This is pointed out in like the first 5 minutes of this very video..
@@StarintheBox Going by my scaling, Ssj Goku from Cell Saga, is not that much weaker than Ssj Gohan(Cell Saga). While Perfect Cell would be around 35/40% stronger than Ssj Goku (Cell Saga). As for Gohan, I do not count the rage boost considering that rage boosts are not permanent, and that Gohan fought Cell for a while. I just think that rage, was the key for Gohan to achieve Ssj2. As for Cell's Zenkai, I don't think he became two times as strong as he was before considering that Zenkai boost not always are big power ups. In fact, Cell was allready strong on his own in his Perfect Form, and that Zenkai was enough for him to Rival a fully powered Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga). Going by some statements, and feats, I do indeed think that Super Perfect Cell is as strong as, if not a bit stronger than a Full Power Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga). Also, as I allready said in my first comment, in Buu Saga, Goku needed Ssj2 in order to surpass Ssj2 Gohan from the Cell Saga, and going by the scale I made in this comment, a 30/40% boost in power for Goku from Cell Saga, to Buu Saga, would pretty much fit with the calculations. I'll write here hypotetical numbers to scale them, and some other characters to compare them: Assj Vegeta (Cell Saga): 3 Ssj Goku(Cell Saga): 6.5. Ssj Gohan(Cell Saga): 7. Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga): 14. Perfect Cell: 10. Super Perfect Cell: 14. Ssj Goku (Buu Saga): 9. Ssj2 Goku(Buu Saga): 18. Ssj3 Goku(Buu Saga): 72. Ssj Gohan(Buu Saga): 6. Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga): 12. Dabura: 10. Ssj Vegeta (Buu Saga): 8. Ssj2 Vegeta(Buu Saga): 16. Ssj Majin Vegeta: 9. Ssj2 Majin Vegeta: 18.
@@robymessina1998 the previous time Goku trained in other world he became 20x stronger in a few months. I'm not saying he'd be able to consistently keep up with improving at that rate but I don't see how it's even fathomable that a power increase as small as 40% could happen in 7 years. Even human characters who have consistently had a smaller rate of growth and only become more and more dis proportionally weaker than Goku throughout the series have improved at astronomically faster rates than that, hell ordinary human beings in *real life* can become over 40% stronger with 7 years of training. There's also the fact that in absolutely no other point in the entire series either before or after the Buu arc are the main characters or the new main villain that small of a degree stronger than the previous arc, and the Buu arc has nearly the biggest canon time gap in the series.
I don't think so. Why would he? He wasn't pushed to his limit at all prior to taking it. They don't get zenkais just from being rejuvenated they have to have been pushed to their limit or near death prior to bouncing back in order to get a zenkai.
There was a little detail left out...Krillin and Yamcha mentioned that they had a significant power boost on the Great Kai Planet. Even when they fought the Ginyu Force on King Kai's planet, they had a significant power boost. Goku even mentions that "In the Other World, SSJ3 was easy." When he used it on Supreme Kai's planet, he was extremely drained and exhausted. Nobody talked about the laws of physics in DBZ. I guess certain heavenly worlds will give them either a power up or crushing gravity.
Their fight with the Ginyu force in King Kai's planet was FILLER. And it wasn't easy beacause of King Kai's planet. It was easy for Goku to transform and stay in SSJ3 beacause he was DEAD (He can draw the energy he needs to transform way faster. And he didn't feeled the giant strain that SSJ3 puts on his body, beacause he has unlimited energy and/or stamina while being dead). In fact, every fighter gets unlimited stamina/energy when they are dead in the otherworld in Dragon Ball (Vegeta could also train non stop in King Kai's planet while being dead and achive SSJ3, just like Goku)
I could be wrong about this, but I don't think I am so I'mma say it. Feel free to leave your thoughts, just don't act foolish about it. Contrary to what you guys said Gohan's transformation wasn't originally intended as SS2, it WAS just his full power unlocking. Akira Toriyama didn't intend for the series to continue past the Cell Saga, and as such he didn't write this as "then he transforms into Super Saiyan 2" but rather "then his full power was finally unleashed". He just later dubbed it SS2 so that he could give it to Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga. This makes sense especially if you consider how in an interview he later stated he "thought the one with the long hair was 2". You could chalk this up to him forgetting things as he tends to do, but I think it is a helpful point of reference. Gohan's big potential unlock moment actually makes more sense this way too, as most people look at the Buu Saga and scratch their heads wondering why Gohan's transformation went from "his true potential" to just another Super Saiyan form. Because it was a retcon.
The funny thing is, the multiplier boosts Gohan got from rage and SSJ2 isn't even close to the rage boost he got when he overpowered Freeza on Namek. If Gohan got a 2x rage boost and a 2x boost from SSJ2 in the Cell saga, think about the multiplier boost he got when he was some where in the 10s of thousands while fighting 2nd form Freeza who was stated to be over 1 million. Gohan overpowered a guy thousands of times stronger than him twice; once in Freeza's 2nd form, and again in Freeza's 3rd form.
Okay first of all. Goku didn't lie about his power for Vegeta's pride. He didnt go ssj3 because he wasn't sure how long he could hold it. For all he knew he would've blasted his stamina in seconds. Goku has never given a shit about Vegeta's pride.
People definitely overrate Goku during the buu saga. In fact the fandom constantly concentrates on raw strength when Toriyama has stressed how important stamina conservation throughout the entire series. He was not familiar with the form and even if he was better able to control his Ki in the form he was no match for pure buu. Pure buu was constantly adapting, becoming stronger all the while having the time of his life enjoying infinite stamina. Would not count Majin Vegeta out against a ssj3 Goku. Obviously neither did Goku because he knew he coulden't properly regulate it. Was not an issue of protecting anyones pride like you said.
@@thaddeusgreen6490 they both had moment's in that fight and buu was learning goku's techniques. Goku had been underestimating buu(every form) the whole time and admits as much before letting go of the spirit bomb
at 17:00 you guys said "It is not like goku had a time limit anymore like he had when he was dead, or he was trying to avoid hurting vegeta's pride." In chapter 477 goku specifically stated "Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that can only be used in the otherworld, where the concept of time doesn't exist. In our living world here it uses up an extremely amount of energy, and all your energy is exhausted immediately." Also, in chapter 478 piccolo stated: "does SSJ3 really use up that much energy in our living realm?" When being in the living realm, it doesn't matter whether you're dead or alive, SSJ3 uses up simply way too much energy to be used properly. For gotenks it's the same, his fusion of 30 minutes is reduced to barely 5 minutes if he goes SSJ3. That's why goku was confident in taking on kid boo on kaioshinkai, which is located in the otherworld. He could finally properly use SSJ3 (his living body was a secondary, much smaller restriction though).
Goku didn't want to beat cell he want gohan to . All goku want to was go back to training because now he knows that sayain can go beyond there power. He was ready to go back to king ky to train
The fact kakarot didn't even consider fighting super Buu at ssj 3 says alot...super Buu was the strongest Buu...but power wise for kakarot training 7 years plus fighting pikkon gave him 2 forms..he mastered 2 but was still adjusting to 3
Gotta interrupt the video at 2:02 to point out that Cell ate a senzu bean before fighting Gohan. Cell and Goku were on roughly equal terms with a slight edge to Cell. You're forgetting, Cell is a saiyan. Cell gets Zenkai. Cell ate Senzu. Cell got Zenkai. That's why he had the huge powerup. Okay, continue.
It would be cool if they made a wish with the super dragonballs with the wish being that as long as anyone is in the hyperbolic time chamber , they would NOT AGE nor suffer from any physical health disorders from anything and have no limits to how long anyone could stay in there. So anyone that enters the chamber , they become immune from aging and suffering any from any sickness or diseases and stay in there as long as they want . Could you imagine how strong goku and vegeta could become with the ability to train for practically an infinite amount of time ??? Just wow !!!
The Buu Saga ruined scaling because of the fusions, Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Goku. In terms of actual power, BuuHan is clearly the most powerful Buu followed by Buutenks, Super Buu, Fat Buu and then Kid Buu. There’s no way Kid Buu would be stronger than Fat Buu who absorbed Kais unless their pure natures weakened him after absorption, but even then SSJ3 Goku was only stronger than Kid Buu and Fat Buu. Gotenks was never given a proper power scale and even Piccolo was iffy. Remember after Buu absorbs someone, he takes the form of who’s the stronger and he took Piccolo’s form after also absorbing Gotenks (tho the fusion was worn off so it was just Trunks and Goten but even then, that’d mean Piccolo was at least SSJ level and ppl swear he’s weak)
I have always had Goku and Vegeta in the Buu arc around 25% stronger than SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell Games. That allows the statements made by Vegeta to be true but also doesn't make them absurdly up there in power compared to everyone else. With statements made in DB Super and BoG years later this kind of confirms that even in their base forms they weren't astronomically more powerful even by the time Beerus came around.
Korrin said Cell is a bit stronger. When they first fought, Cell was a good enough amount in power, but the difference only became clear after Goku used his IT Kamehameha on Cell causing his stamina to drop both significantly and rapidly. Now it was stated that Cell's power had been severely cut as well and it was dropping too, but not as fast as Goku's. This difference in power starts there in stamina upkeep. Power and strength play into that. However, where Cell's power dramatically takes flight is after he took the Senzu. Now you gotta remember that what Cell is, is not only an biological android with incredible power on his own, but that genetics is infused with Saiyan genetics on top of Frieza beastly power growth potential. And seeing Frieza now as Golden Frieza and Goku and the other Saiyans now in god power, its a very clear indication that the increases in power Cell shows us that Cell gains zenkai boosts by a factor maybe 3 to 5 X greater than what the Saiyans gain. Here is something else. Cell did not have Trunks and Gohan's cells. Had he did, I can't see how anyone could have beat him.
Okay so imma do the maths based on this video MSSJ SSJ Goku = 1 MSSJ Gohan = 1.5 Perfect Cell = 2 (or at least this is where LSM and MJ put it. I'd say 3-3.5 myself) SSJ2 CG Gohan = 6 (4x MSSJ Gohan) SSJ2 Goku / Majin Vegeta = 6.5 SSJ Buu saga Goku = 3.25 (he'd HAVE to be to make up for the vast power difference between him and MSSJ Gohan, then the rage boost Gohan got) SSJ3 Goku = 13 Overall Goku in SSJ3 would be 13x stronger than MSSJ Goku in the Cell Games.
@Martin Ramirez how. There's literally no proof of that. Goku and Majin Vegeta ONLY state they're above SSJ2 Cell games Gohan when in their own SSJ2 states. Anything below SSJ2 still isn't surpassing Gohan and Cell, not until the SSJG Ritual for Goku do we see a Base Saiyan surpass them.
12:00-13:20 In that sense, is it possible Goku saw a glimpse of Ultra Instinct in Gohan during their very brief exchange? Or, at least in the anime version, as I don't think they had that exchange in the manga version.
I don't think cell was multiple times stronger than goku but more like 1.5 times stronger. You can't discount cells regeneration. When goku blew the top of cell away he put everything into that attack and it would have won the fight if cell didn't regenerate. And ssj2 being a 2x boost that'd put Gohan ahead of cell about the amount he was over goku
I would would say Gohan was around 15 Million when he fought Frieza & after the training in the time chamber was 250 Million Cell at full power was around 260 or 270 Million which is 20 percent stronger then Goku was back then. Gohan at 325 Million which is nearly 50 percent stronger scary.
20 percent increase on top of his base, his ssj1 full power was 2.5 billion, since ssj1 multiplier is 50, 2.5 billion divided by 50 50 million, ssj3 goku's power level maxed out is 24 billion according to most scales, ssj3 multiplier is 400 times that of base form, so 24 billion divided by 400, equals to 60 million
Kid Buu is not the strongest. His power might be on the same level or "slightly" weaker than Super Buu. But Kid Buu is crazy and has no sanity. He can do unpredictable things. Goku stated that in the Japanese version of the manga (and in Thai version), not the mistranslated English version. As you can see, Goku and Vegita are terrified by the Super Buu when they separate from Potora, and Goku clearly said that they both have no chance against Super Buu which is much stronger than the first version of Fat Buu (before he split into --- fat and THIN Buu). But when fighting Kid Buu, they both are chilling, using rock-paper-scissor to go one at a time, and Goku is quite confident that he can beat Kid Buu himself at that point. --- For conclusion, I think Kid Buu is stronger than the "first" Fat Buu that Goku have fougfht with SS3 before (not the final one which lost more than half of his power to thin Buu), but a bit weaker or on the same level with Super Buu at most.
I would say that Fat Buu (pre-split) is more powerful than Kid Buu, but doesn't draw out his power due to the Kiao's influence, stronger after they split though.
@@Skorndrow-1 True. When the roles between good and evil were reversed as Super Buu (he also does have the power of both sides after all) he got much more powerful. Fat Buu had all that power but the influence of the Kaioshin was limiting his evil side and its power.
Pure Buu is always underestimated. He most certainly is on par with super buu but has the advantage of being a savage. Also seems that his magic and regen comes faster and more naturally in his Kid buu form.
I don't think Gohan was as strong as a Ssj3 against cell. Sure his hidden power probably did give him a nice boost, but there's no way it was anymore than another 50 percent of gohan mastered ssj on top of ssj2. If this were true, then he would probably be able to take on fat buu and hold his own well and possibly even beat him. I know you're probably about to say that "well since Vegeta stated that Goku was stronger than gohan during the cell games that you could just say that Ssj2 Goku is stronger than a hypothetical ssj3 term gohan" (that's the amount of power you're proposing he put out) and I just don't see that. If that were true then that means that Cell would've surpassed Ssj2 gohan when he came back as super perfect cell since gohan power was cut in half and cell was able to stalemate and even overpower this gohan without going full power himself. So it just doesn't make sense unless you make a bunch of assumptions that are kind bbn of far fetched.
Yeah if you look at hard evidence.its no way cell could have been twice as strong as goku.with heavy breathing.and scratches all over his body.maybe 1.25 but double not possible.
Characters always get a zenkai boost. You can confirm this with gotenks because he did fight majin boo (fat) lost and he obviously had gotten stronger afterwards when he fought super buu
"cell thought he could take everyone on the hillside without asenzu even after defeating goku" well using this to scale power is invalid because he couldn't even defeat just gohan!
In my opinion the two elements that were the most crippling to the story were the implementation of power levels and zenkai boosts. They COULD have been done well, but I don't think they were. Same with the Super Saiyan transformation. I still love the show! Though I haven't watched Super yet.
@@darksith7282 I think for the most part, with the possible exception of Cell after he exploded. And I haven't seen Super yet, so I'm not sure if it's used there. But it was such an abused springboard. Bringing Goku from a power level of 90,000 to 3,000,000 after the fight with Ginyu. And similar with Vegeta after being blasted by Krillin on Namek.
Storm Rhode in the dbs manga they stated that goku and vegeta had trained so much that the zenkais became irrelevant. As for cell, i think he absorbed the blast or goku’s cells which is why hecame back stronger as Super Perfect as well as knew how to do instant tramsmission. Tbh its all due to the inconsistent writing.
@@darksith7282 One reason aspects like this and other examples of bad/inconsistent writing are so frustrating is because so much of the story is so well done and so fun. I think if in the first place the zenkai was a tiny boost in strength or durability, as opposed to a potential massive multiplier, it would have been fine.
This is another comment of mine, this time with scaling for the Cell Games - Boo Saga. I’ll do different scalings in the reply. I’ll use Cell Game Base Kakkarot as a 1 and others above that number, these will have my numbers (low balled, I think). Base Kakkarot - 1 Super Sayia-Jin Grade 4 Kakkarot - 50 Base Pre-Teen Gohan - 2 Base Pre-Teen Gohan (potential unlocked) - 6 (x3 Base Pre-Teen Gohan) Super Sayia-Jin Grade 4 Pre-Teen Gohan - 100 (x50 Base Pre-Teen Gohan) Super Sayia-Jin Grade 5 Pre-Teen Gohan (potential unlocked) - 600 (x100 Base Pre-Teen Gohan potential unlocked) Perfect Cell - 200 Super Perfect Cell - 400 Boo Saga: Base Kakkarot - 8 Boo Saga: Super Sayia-Jin Grade 4 Kakkarot - 400 Boo Saga: Super Sayia-Jin Grade 5 Kakkarot - 800 Boo Saga: Super Sayia-Jin 3 Kakkarot - 3,200 Boo Saga: Base Kakkarot could be 7 so making him in Grade 4 = 350 & Grade 5 700 and for S.S-J 3 Kakkarot a 2,800 . His power could be greater but I’ll stick what could make sense. Base Kakkarot could have gotten that strong in 7 years but idk.
I think goku should have been significantly more stronger during the 7 years, technically in the other world he doesn't need sleep so he can train as long as he wanted, he has better training conditions, more and better way to train (increase of gravity, king kai adding weight to goku), he has more suited sparring partners like palkuhan who at least stronger than cell, he technically should have more masters that can advise him or unlock his hidden potential, he shoulded try to master his super saiyan 2 like his super saiyan 1 knowing all the downside of the super saiyan 3, learn new techniques and tactics, and he shoulded to experiment further his super saiyan 3 knowing he's at the right place
Obviously alot Goku was only ssj1 ( mastered super Saiyan specifically) during cell saga By the time the Buu saga started he had already obtained ssj2 and ssj3 So he's about 8 times stronger if you go according to the multipliers (x2 for ssj2 and ssj2 x4 for ssj3)
I think Goku after a year of training in the hyperbolic chamber knew his body put limits on his power, and figured out by being dead he could train at his fullest so he was purposefully going to yeet himself dead one way or another.
Vegeta didn't acknowledge Goku to be stronger than SSJ2 Gohan until he himself went SSJ2. This means that even in the Buu Saga, SSJ1 Goku is still not stronger than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan. SSJ1 Gohan was only a little weaker to a little stronger than SSJ1 Goku and SSJ2 doubles your power. Goku didn't even double his base power from Cell to Buu Saga. He literally only got SSJ forms to force his power to multiply beyond his natural limits with SSJ2 and 3 This lines up because when he comes out the time chamber Goku tells Gohan that there's no more training to be done, that he's reached his limit. People like to think he just meant that they needed to rest, but Goku straight up says "if I do nothing in the chamber for a year my power will diminish". Why would he do nothing for a year if he could just rest for ten days in the chamber and then train more for the rest of the year? Because he meant it when he said there is no more training for him to do. Couple this with the fact that Vegeta confirms that Goku isn't stronger than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan until he himself is SSJ2, it's clear Goku didn't actually gain much strength from Cell to Buu. Also Zenkai definitely dropped. People are mistaking a lot of things in Super for Zenkai. Black wasn't getting a zenkai from fighting Goku the first time. He just used his pain as motivation, he got stronger from starting to fight like Goku hence the scene of him mimicking Goku's fighting style after and gaining strength from it. In the ToP, I mean you literally have to recover from the near death experience for a Zenkai to work. Goku and Vegeta in the ToP weren't getting Zenkai boosts they were just getting stronger as they fought, as in training against hard opponents and boosting from it (plus the new forms). Once you get enough Zenkai's the effect drops off and starts to not matter, even in Super. Cell only got such a huge one from being so strong, being such a severe injury, and more importantly never having had a Zenkai boost before that so it was bound to be huge. A lot of the scaling in Super makes sense and fits with Z's logic when you think about it without preconceived notions about Z, they really work as one entity.
@Martin Ramirez That's not true at all. That's not even physically possible without god ki lol. If Buu Saga Base Goku was stronger than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan, then Vegeta wouldn't have made that comment, simple as that.
kid buu fought against fat buu and was much stronger than fat buu. I think Goku thought that Kid Buu was about the same level as Fat Buu but realized that he was stronger and there was also the fact that he lost energy much faster than Kid Buu. I think the real ones were about the same strength, only Goku had the problem with the energy loss. I think even if he had gotten a bean and fought at 100%, he would have lost in the long run. You can only defeat Buu if you are much stronger than him and therefore do a lot more damage to him over time, which Goku wasn't, or you just use the Genkidama. I rate Kid Buu on the same level as normal Buu. It's just that Kid Buu fights much more wildly and has no morals and the like, which makes him more dangerous. In terms of spirit and character, he is much more dangerous because he fights purely instinctively.
Do half-Saiyans get zenkais? I don't think they do because we've never seen that, and that statement from Buutenks. But then again, Cell got a boost when he's a lot less Saiyan than that.
Yes, Goku went ALL OUT against Cell. But he did not use up all of his potential power, because he knew, Gohan was still there. It would be interesting to know what would have happened, if it was just Goku and the situation would be similar to the Frieza situation on Namek. Where he went ALL OUT genkidama and then......... Honestly, between you and me, I still think, Goku could have been able to defeat/ kill Cell!.....
I’ve been saying that for years! I personally don’t think Gohan Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Their fights with Cell didn’t really sell me on Gohan being legit stronger well not before going to the next level. If Goku did have a Frieza situation, some friends would have died and he would have became super Saiyan 2. A repeat of the Frieza arc. So I’m glad they went the route of passing the torch.
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Out of context: Gohans Latino voice actor passed away yesterday just want to tell you guys life can end just like that so enjoy every minute and every second we live.
He was killed I think
Yea I know I just didn't want to say it in such a bad way.
R.I.P.
My condolences. I know, voice actors can be treasures. At least in certain countries, many people still seem to have no idea about that. And how great and important some voice performances can be for the media of art.
And I know all about how life can just end like that, because my mom......
Lets all just pray and send out our thoughts to the English guy who spoke for Frieza. What was his name again, Chis Ayres? I seriously just say stuff from memory here now, but I´ve heard he´s very ill and actually a very close friend to Geekdom101. He could probably tell you a lot more about that than I can.......
I just thought about, you said GOHAN´S voice actor, I´m sure you meant adult Gohan, right? Because German kid Gohan was actually also dubbed by a pretty awesome and talented young boy at the time and it would be even more brutal to hear that that voice actor was actually also still relatively young when he died.....
Wait a min. Goku at SSJ3 during Kid Buu wasn’t able to go all out. He was trying to get max power but he literally lost his energy trying to hold the form. When he was dead, it was easier to hold. So when Goku said he could’ve defeated Fat Buu but struggled with Kid Buu...it makes sense.
Robert Loyale plus in his pure form Buu has basically unlimited stamina
@@donathan2933 And Kid Buu seems to mess around more than Super Buu or even Fat Buu.
Goku relying on SSJ3 in the first place doesn't make much sense. But he had to.
@Martin Ramirez No.
@Martin Ramirez lol hell no. It took Vegito to deal with Buuhan. Not to mention he's literally made up of Ultimate Gohan and many other warriors. Ultimate Gohan alone was stronger than Goku and Vegeta
Biggest cop out in Anime history: Gohan’s hidden potential. No matter how many times he unlocks it, the hidden potential keeps respawing to be unlocked once more.
Awesome Reviews lol how much potential full power potential can be unlocked
First things first, potential grows with you. No matter how much a kid trains they wont have as big a muscles as the same kid older. Guru unlocked Kid Gohan's potential at the time, years later he's obviously going to have an older and more able body with which to get stronger, ergo more potential - being how he reached his limit in Cell Saga. Elder Kai didn't even unlock his potential at the time he did his whole 'beyond your limits' deal, he unlocked the limits of the potential and his SSJ forms and beyond his limit. It's not just 'oh he has potential unlocked, ope missed some'. It would't make any sense if a 5 year old had his potential unlocked and then didn't have more when his physical body actually grows.
@@mastertucker I respect you,sir.
@@mastertucker I'm glad someone else understands this concept. I've had to explain it so many times before xD
Thanks mate 💪
mastertucker check....and mate👏🏿
I say he went from peak human level to wall level
He's *at least* city bus level
He's at least bathroom level
At least chair level
You guys so kind he at least ant level
Like at least tile level
Vegeta probably on some level, resents Gohan for throwing his potential away.
Goku had the best gains in the Buu arc. He learned so much and gained two forms in seven years. If Super Saiyan 3 wasn't enough, Goku was dying to become Gogeta if Vegeta just played things smart.
The buu saga saw the least amount of power increase compared to the frieza and cell arcs. I mean ssj3 goku was barely a bit over 4 times more powerful than ssj2 gohan, and he couldn't even keep that transformation for too long.
@@MsMRkv Goku's ss2 form surpassed Gohan's and he had ss3 at his disposal. Gohan was only able to close the gap by getting his potential awakened.
@Martin Ramirez No, it wasn't until his fight with Vegeta that he surpasses him
I'm just a Dog a lie. Ss2 gohan was stronger than ss3 goku, so it’s obviously stronger than ss2
@@4EvurPosters At what point was Gohan's ss2 form stronger than Goku's ss3 form?
Great video. Heads up, just found out that the Latin American Gohan voice actor was killed today. 😥😥😥
What a tragedy. Rest in peace.
CFL Tournaments not only that , his wife was also murdered by the bastard
RIP.
@@theaustralian1970 WAT!?
Damn that’s messed up
I believe Vegeta was really disappointed at Gohan at the beginning of the Buu saga for waisting his potential the way he did. I'm not saying Gohan wasted it he just went another way with it which is intelligence, but to a full blooded Saiyan like Vegeta he took it personally. It also shows that Vegeta actually does care about even Goku's kids.
Well, Vegeta attacking Cell after Trunks getting killed by that Death Beam was the first real indication that he actually does care about people, which is the truth in contrast to the lie he believed, that there's nothing more important to him than the pursuit of power. But, of course, Vegeta was still stuck in his masculine and prideful ideals to fully admit it.
And I guess after Vegeta was saved by Gohan when Cell tried to kill him, maybe he felt some form of gratitude towards Gohan and Vegeta probably feels disgusted that he let all that power go to waste.
@@cjkalandek996 spot on dude, I got a soft spot for Vegeta.
We already know that for décades! your commentary is useless!
I like how you keep these timeless DBZ topics coming along. You keep having new ideas going in 2020 idk how but great job.
Lets just say he made cell look like yamcha
Cell would have been a decent warm up for Buu saga Goku.
@@imjustadog1897 I wouldn't say that. SPC and SSJ2 CG Gohan were only surpassed by Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku and nothing indicates they were THAT much stronger than them. SPC should still be a hard fight for SSJ2 Buu saga Goku.
I mean, SS2 teen Gohan already made Cell look like Yamcha.
@@jamainegardner4193 If Goku and Vegeta claim that they're stronger than Cell arc Gohan, that would mean that their Super Saiyan 2 forms are stronger than Gohan's when he defeated Cell. It wouldn't be an easy fight, but warming up at ss2, then finishing Cell at ss3 wouldn't take as long as it took Gohan to finish Cell.
That's a fukn strong ass Yamaha 😂😂
I wish SSJ3 had been the final transformation, at least until the fight with Jiren. It just seems like such an underused form, and the ones after that just feel like SSJ1 with different hair colors. Ultra Instinct would have been much more meaningful as a long gray hair upgraded version of SSJ3.
I mean, Goku and Vegeta tipped the whole power level of the other characters by becoming Gods SSj3 pretty useless of how much power it uses
Zenkai boosts are always a thing, I don't remember Saiyans genetic code changing
Still a thing? Yes.
Still a meaningful thing? Doesn't seem to be anymore.
yall are forgetting how Cell has Saiyan dna and after the senzu bean he not only regains full health he also becomes stronger all around
They mention cell gets a zenkai in the video. He wouldn't get a zenkai after the Senzu tho because he was not near death. Saiyans or those with Saiyan DNA don't get a zenkai every time they are rejuvenated, they have to have been close to death then rejuvenated
@@anthonygonzalez2897 After the Instant Transmission Kamehameha that Goku blasted him with, he grew back and I believe that was the boost not the Senzu
Power levels might have been a bit of a handicap for Dragonball, but I see it as a boon for the show overall. Power levels have allowed the show to be constantly talked about in the years between DBGT and the Tarble movie ("Yo! Son Goku and his friends", right?) Power levels also allowed channels like this to exist where we can all come together and discuss who is stronger in later sagas based on a concept that was abandoned in the middle of the series.
Korin: "I'm afraid Cell is a bit stronger."
Cell was 2x as Strong as Goku.
How?
Cell was heavily suppressed before doing any fighting. Just like gohan and goku
Yeah I don't buy that..ssj2 is a 2 times multiplier itself.
It makes more sense to think of it as Cell was a step above Goku. So like 25%. I just mean like a form above like 2nd grade. Or freeza vs ssj Goku. It s massive but not 2 times more powerful massive.
Plus both cell and Gohan do get boosts afterwards. Ssj2 Gohan is definitely more than twice as strong. And still managed to kill cell after the boost.
There's no exact numbers but I'm looking at what are similar scenarios. And freeza vs Goku is probably the closest one. Followed by like grade 2 to grade 3 or 4.
Yeah they're massive but they weren't 2 times an ssj.
@@DSan-kl2yc I honestly agree with you. I always thought that cell was using somewhere of 70-80% of his full power when fighting against Goku
Well, remember, in the that scene, Goku said the amount of energy he channeled for Korin to see was about half of his power.
Probably like 3x stronger, then unlocks SSJ3 so a potential 12x stronger? Is that how the math would work?
Guys, I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that vegeta was above kid ssj2 gohan before the majin boost?
Both him and goku never say that they are above that version of gohan, they just complain about the current gohan who hasnt trained for 7 years, has no rage boost and has generally gone soft during the peaceful time.
Majin vegeta however is clearly confirmed to have surpassed ssj2 kid gohan.
Vegeta even speculates that if the current out of shape gohan got angry he could probably take him.
There's a reason toriyama is telling us this, it's to tell the audience that an angry version of adult gohan is still very relevant, just like when majin vegeta announces that goku is atleast stronger then gohan now is a direct confirmation from toriyama that this level of fighters are now above the ones we saw 7 years ago. Vegeta literally gets the majin boost to try and reach that level, I don't get how people wash over this.
Plus as you stated gohan didn't even try against cell, we have no idea how far he could have taken it if he wanted to.
I always thought goku was more like 70 % of cells power level. 30 % is alot. I'm mean alot. If you are 30 % stronger than someone you should straight beat the fuck out of them
2:59 that’s the kinda stuff I miss, dbz feels toned down
Don't you mean DBS? If so then yeah it is
Dbs Manga is guite brutal
"Fuck. I'm still not as powerful as this guy when he goes super saiyan 2." -Vegeta
This seems more like a gohan power scale video
Scaling in Dragon Ball is largely comparative. You need to establish the strength of other characters in order to say who is stronger or weaker.
Saying that gohan ssj was weaker than cell is just wrong. Gohan spent half of the fight trying to stop cell to force him to have to kill him (cell).
According to El Manga Legendario, Shin is equal to Super Saiyan Cell Games Goku. “Se puede deducir que tiene la misma fuerza que Goku durante el Cell Game.” Yet Shin is shitting himself when Babidi’s minions show up. Vegeta in base stomped Pui-Pui, and Goku is of course stronger than Vegeta. Yet Shin was shocked at Vegeta’s base power. Dabura stated that Yakon is strong enough to kill everyone there, despite knowing Shin’s power, so Goku got AT LEAST 50x stronger in the seven years.
Not strong enough to challenge me.
Kyuubi Chakra mode 15 Ino stomps...
@@godsfist6169 wut
Great video. I couldn't contact you on Twitter, but I released my HxH 1999 v 2011 several days ago, and am at work making my Chimera Ant review to release within 1-2 months.
I deleted my Twitter. But that's cool, I'll check it out.
I thought this was a follow-up to your video with Geekdom... definitely thought you were in the process of introducing him there.
I wish Shallot Giblet Zahha Android 21 and Bonyu become canon in Dragon Ball Super Anime
Their SS2 forms were only stronger than injured SS2 Kid Gohan. MAYBE they were in the realm of uninjured SS2 Kid Gohan, but their assessments were based on what they saw and felt, at that time. We don't know how much power, he was holding back, before his left arm, was damaged. He was literally toying with bug man.Let's be honest Gohan was a str8 up menace as a kid.
True Gohan still had his power cut in a sizeable way by the arm injury
Just think, Goku straight up told Vegeta "He was saving SSJ3 for when he really needed it"
And Freeza went up in power incredibly fast
Hey Laughing Stock, I noticed an issue with a statement you said. Vegeta in base was actually stronger than Goku and Gohan in the Cell Saga from the first time in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Goku spent half of his time training Gohan and the other to find Full Power Super Saiyan(or Mastered Super Saiyan). Vegeta and Trunks trained the entire time and Vegeta went in the second time. Meaning Goku Grew even stronger then you guys are giving him credit for.
Goku and Gohan were far stronger in base than Vegeta was. Unlike Grade 2/3, Full Power Super Saiyan isn't a different multiplier from Grade 1. It allows for greater suppression and minimal energy drain. It also removed the rage filled mental state, which is why Goku and Gohan were so calm when exiting the chamber.
"Talk about immasculation."
"He sells his soul then Goku still gets multiple times stronger"
"Yeah and he holds back during their fight just to make him think he stands a chance"
Guys come on...you realize these statements in reality make Goku look that much more inferior against Vegeta because in reality, like how the fight went, if Goku and Vegeta are on the same level *Vegeta wins* . Had Vegeta died and had the same *insane bonus of training in death with essentially limitless energy for 7 years* the same as Goku did and they fought then, I think the battle would still be the same as SSJ2 Vegeta vs. SSJ2 Goku.
Cope
JustinWolf93 wait how does Vegeta win when they’re on the same level?
@@icantbelieveyoudonethis4059 Because he defeated Goku (lol). His cunning and way of fighting is what won him the battle.
JustinWolf93 yeah because Goku trying to call a truce and Vegeta capitalising on that clearly means he’s the better fighter. He never won the fight and openly admitted he needed the majin amp to equal Goku’s SS2. We’ve even seen them fight on equal power levels and they’re just that equal.
Vegeta Stan’s are so weird man
I mean it was a good conversation but it was so very anti-climactic lol
Am I the only one that would not have been bothered if power levels stuck around?
Just a little bit
I mean he unlocked SS2 and 3
Ive been dieing for this video thanks Mike.
Buu saga was a pain in the ass
Because of the power scaling
Has anyone ever questioned how time moved the same in other world as it did on Earth?
Fresh Spence no
The Fourth Dimension is Time and Space, time transcends Space.
It doesn't, Goku didn't age while he was dead.
If Toriyama implies that peace can lead to stronger Saiyans (Universe 6 Saiyans) then why is Gohan weaker overall?
Isn't the idea that in U7 saiyans never made use of their zenkais properly because their soldiers were treated like cannon fodder for the frieza force and even before then, plus they abused the Ape form to conquer.
But in U6 they lack tails, so never could abuse said form, and are more compassionate so they save injured saiyans allowing zenkais to take effect. I can imagine over millennia that it adds up, with each generation being stronger than the last.
Aaron Warburton
Ah i see. Sorry for growing up thinking "saiyans get stronger after EVERY fight". All this retconning and changing makes me wish we had good writers.
@@mrJalisco70
Can't argue with that. Better explanations and storytelling would really enhance Super. It's not fun having to 'figure stuff out' because the writer didn't explain it.
@@VictorSolomon7 Imagine If Goku Had Kept His Tail And Learned How To Control His Great Ape Form
@@futuregohan4837
It wouldn't have changed anything unless SSJ4 is canon, then that's a possibility post-namek.
Well,
Goku been dead for 7 years and has a durable body and unlimited endurance
Cell is part saiyan remember? He basically died and regenerated zenkai boost he did that twice
Also Cell would have gotten a Zenki after Goku hit him with the kamehameha.
15:32 geekdom wants your location
I think potential unleashed is a 500x if ss3 is 400x
No its not a multiplier.
Easy answer a exponential amount!!!🐐🗿🐉
I think he may have become 30 to 40% stronger than he was in Cell Saga considering that In Buu Saga, Goku needed Ssj2 to be stronger than Ssj2 Gohan from Cell Saga). And at the time, Ssj Gohan(Cell Saga), wasn't that much stronger than Ssj Goku(Cell Saga).
30-40% is too low. 4-5 times would be more realistic.
@@dreamcore7 I respect your opinion, but I don't agree man. Goku needed Ssj2 to be stronger than the Ssj2 Gohan from Cell Saga. Back in Cell Saga, Ssj Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Ssj Goku, and considering that the Ssj2 is only two times stronger than Ssj, going by logic, Goku in Buu Saga, could not even have been two times as strong as he was in Cell Saga. That's why I think he got 30/40% stronger in Buu Saga in comparasion to Cell Saga.
Only 30-40% stronger with 7 years of training?? Firstly, after Perfect Cell gets a zenkai boost and unlocks SSJ2, Super Perfect Cell is still only equal if not a little less than as powerful as SSJ2 Gohan, which would mean SSJ Gohan would be stronger than Perfect Cell, and Perfect Cell was stronger than Goku. Gohan > Super Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell > Goku. So Gohan was more than just a little bit stronger than Goku, the difference was pretty significant. You're ignoring that Gohan would have gotten an immense power boost when he became enraged and finally fully let go completely independant of the additional SSJ2 multipler. Gohan's normal base power wasn't that much stronger than Goku during Cell Tournament (although even then it was still at least a little bit greater than Goku's), but his true power was immensely higher than Goku. This is pointed out in like the first 5 minutes of this very video..
@@StarintheBox Going by my scaling, Ssj Goku from Cell Saga, is not that much weaker than Ssj Gohan(Cell Saga). While Perfect Cell would be around 35/40% stronger than Ssj Goku (Cell Saga). As for Gohan, I do not count the rage boost considering that rage boosts are not permanent, and that Gohan fought Cell for a while. I just think that rage, was the key for Gohan to achieve Ssj2. As for Cell's Zenkai, I don't think he became two times as strong as he was before considering that Zenkai boost not always are big power ups. In fact, Cell was allready strong on his own in his Perfect Form, and that Zenkai was enough for him to Rival a fully powered Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga). Going by some statements, and feats, I do indeed think that Super Perfect Cell is as strong as, if not a bit stronger than a Full Power Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga). Also, as I allready said in my first comment, in Buu Saga, Goku needed Ssj2 in order to surpass Ssj2 Gohan from the Cell Saga, and going by the scale I made in this comment, a 30/40% boost in power for Goku from Cell Saga, to Buu Saga, would pretty much fit with the calculations. I'll write here hypotetical numbers to scale them, and some other characters to compare them:
Assj Vegeta (Cell Saga): 3
Ssj Goku(Cell Saga): 6.5.
Ssj Gohan(Cell Saga): 7.
Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga): 14.
Perfect Cell: 10.
Super Perfect Cell: 14.
Ssj Goku (Buu Saga): 9.
Ssj2 Goku(Buu Saga): 18.
Ssj3 Goku(Buu Saga): 72.
Ssj Gohan(Buu Saga): 6.
Ssj2 Gohan(Cell Saga): 12.
Dabura: 10.
Ssj Vegeta (Buu Saga): 8.
Ssj2 Vegeta(Buu Saga): 16.
Ssj Majin Vegeta: 9.
Ssj2 Majin Vegeta: 18.
@@robymessina1998 the previous time Goku trained in other world he became 20x stronger in a few months. I'm not saying he'd be able to consistently keep up with improving at that rate but I don't see how it's even fathomable that a power increase as small as 40% could happen in 7 years. Even human characters who have consistently had a smaller rate of growth and only become more and more dis proportionally weaker than Goku throughout the series have improved at astronomically faster rates than that, hell ordinary human beings in *real life* can become over 40% stronger with 7 years of training. There's also the fact that in absolutely no other point in the entire series either before or after the Buu arc are the main characters or the new main villain that small of a degree stronger than the previous arc, and the Buu arc has nearly the biggest canon time gap in the series.
Cell got a zenkai boost from the senzu bean as well
I don't think so. Why would he? He wasn't pushed to his limit at all prior to taking it. They don't get zenkais just from being rejuvenated they have to have been pushed to their limit or near death prior to bouncing back in order to get a zenkai.
There was a little detail left out...Krillin and Yamcha mentioned that they had a significant power boost on the Great Kai Planet. Even when they fought the Ginyu Force on King Kai's planet, they had a significant power boost. Goku even mentions that "In the Other World, SSJ3 was easy." When he used it on Supreme Kai's planet, he was extremely drained and exhausted. Nobody talked about the laws of physics in DBZ. I guess certain heavenly worlds will give them either a power up or crushing gravity.
Their fight with the Ginyu force in King Kai's planet was FILLER.
And it wasn't easy beacause of King Kai's planet.
It was easy for Goku to transform and stay in SSJ3 beacause he was DEAD
(He can draw the energy he needs to transform way faster.
And
he didn't feeled the giant strain that SSJ3 puts on his body, beacause he has unlimited energy and/or stamina while being dead).
In fact, every fighter gets unlimited stamina/energy when they are dead in the otherworld in Dragon Ball
(Vegeta could also train non stop in King Kai's planet while being dead and achive SSJ3, just like Goku)
Great video, always enjoy MJ being on there
I could be wrong about this, but I don't think I am so I'mma say it. Feel free to leave your thoughts, just don't act foolish about it.
Contrary to what you guys said Gohan's transformation wasn't originally intended as SS2, it WAS just his full power unlocking. Akira Toriyama didn't intend for the series to continue past the Cell Saga, and as such he didn't write this as "then he transforms into Super Saiyan 2" but rather "then his full power was finally unleashed". He just later dubbed it SS2 so that he could give it to Goku and Vegeta in the Buu Saga. This makes sense especially if you consider how in an interview he later stated he "thought the one with the long hair was 2". You could chalk this up to him forgetting things as he tends to do, but I think it is a helpful point of reference.
Gohan's big potential unlock moment actually makes more sense this way too, as most people look at the Buu Saga and scratch their heads wondering why Gohan's transformation went from "his true potential" to just another Super Saiyan form. Because it was a retcon.
The funny thing is, the multiplier boosts Gohan got from rage and SSJ2 isn't even close to the rage boost he got when he overpowered Freeza on Namek. If Gohan got a 2x rage boost and a 2x boost from SSJ2 in the Cell saga, think about the multiplier boost he got when he was some where in the 10s of thousands while fighting 2nd form Freeza who was stated to be over 1 million. Gohan overpowered a guy thousands of times stronger than him twice; once in Freeza's 2nd form, and again in Freeza's 3rd form.
I think vegeta would of commited suicide if goku used his ss3 in there fight because his pride was already on the breaking point lol
Could do a video,What if Vegeta train Gohan when Goku dies?
Okay first of all. Goku didn't lie about his power for Vegeta's pride. He didnt go ssj3 because he wasn't sure how long he could hold it. For all he knew he would've blasted his stamina in seconds.
Goku has never given a shit about Vegeta's pride.
People definitely overrate Goku during the buu saga. In fact the fandom constantly concentrates on raw strength when Toriyama has stressed how important stamina conservation throughout the entire series. He was not familiar with the form and even if he was better able to control his Ki in the form he was no match for pure buu. Pure buu was constantly adapting, becoming stronger all the while having the time of his life enjoying infinite stamina. Would not count Majin Vegeta out against a ssj3 Goku. Obviously neither did Goku because he knew he coulden't properly regulate it. Was not an issue of protecting anyones pride like you said.
SS3 Goku would have smoked Majin Vegeta. Don’t be a fanboy ffs.
@@PgLangGang If he could get it done fast yes of course. I think Vegeta could feasibly stick around long enough for goku to revert back to ssj2
uncouthLIyouth not the way he was beating boo around like a punching bag
@@thaddeusgreen6490 they both had moment's in that fight and buu was learning goku's techniques. Goku had been underestimating buu(every form) the whole time and admits as much before letting go of the spirit bomb
at 17:00 you guys said "It is not like goku had a time limit anymore like he had when he was dead, or he was trying to avoid hurting vegeta's pride." In chapter 477 goku specifically stated "Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that can only be used in the otherworld, where the concept of time doesn't exist. In our living world here it uses up an extremely amount of energy, and all your energy is exhausted immediately." Also, in chapter 478 piccolo stated: "does SSJ3 really use up that much energy in our living realm?" When being in the living realm, it doesn't matter whether you're dead or alive, SSJ3 uses up simply way too much energy to be used properly. For gotenks it's the same, his fusion of 30 minutes is reduced to barely 5 minutes if he goes SSJ3. That's why goku was confident in taking on kid boo on kaioshinkai, which is located in the otherworld. He could finally properly use SSJ3 (his living body was a secondary, much smaller restriction though).
Goku didn't want to beat cell he want gohan to . All goku want to was go back to training because now he knows that sayain can go beyond there power. He was ready to go back to king ky to train
The fact kakarot didn't even consider fighting super Buu at ssj 3 says alot...super Buu was the strongest Buu...but power wise for kakarot training 7 years plus fighting pikkon gave him 2 forms..he mastered 2 but was still adjusting to 3
You undepowered a lot the power if goku
Goku wasn’t 100 percent when he fought kid buu since he was already tired from fighting him before he went super sayin 3
He ascended to Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3 RIGHT AFTER his fight with Pikkon at the Other World Tournament
filler
Love your videos bro
Gotta interrupt the video at 2:02 to point out that Cell ate a senzu bean before fighting Gohan. Cell and Goku were on roughly equal terms with a slight edge to Cell. You're forgetting, Cell is a saiyan. Cell gets Zenkai.
Cell ate Senzu.
Cell got Zenkai.
That's why he had the huge powerup.
Okay, continue.
It would be cool if they made a wish with the super dragonballs with the wish being that as long as anyone is in the hyperbolic time chamber , they would NOT AGE nor suffer from any physical health disorders from anything and have no limits to how long anyone could stay in there. So anyone that enters the chamber , they become immune from aging and suffering any from any sickness or diseases and stay in there as long as they want . Could you imagine how strong goku and vegeta could become with the ability to train for practically an infinite amount of time ??? Just wow !!!
The Buu Saga ruined scaling because of the fusions, Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Goku. In terms of actual power, BuuHan is clearly the most powerful Buu followed by Buutenks, Super Buu, Fat Buu and then Kid Buu. There’s no way Kid Buu would be stronger than Fat Buu who absorbed Kais unless their pure natures weakened him after absorption, but even then SSJ3 Goku was only stronger than Kid Buu and Fat Buu. Gotenks was never given a proper power scale and even Piccolo was iffy. Remember after Buu absorbs someone, he takes the form of who’s the stronger and he took Piccolo’s form after also absorbing Gotenks (tho the fusion was worn off so it was just Trunks and Goten but even then, that’d mean Piccolo was at least SSJ level and ppl swear he’s weak)
Great video bro
I have always had Goku and Vegeta in the Buu arc around 25% stronger than SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell Games. That allows the statements made by Vegeta to be true but also doesn't make them absurdly up there in power compared to everyone else. With statements made in DB Super and BoG years later this kind of confirms that even in their base forms they weren't astronomically more powerful even by the time Beerus came around.
Why are Videl and 18 mean mugging each other at 19:26?
Korrin said Cell is a bit stronger. When they first fought, Cell was a good enough amount in power, but the difference only became clear after Goku used his IT Kamehameha on Cell causing his stamina to drop both significantly and rapidly. Now it was stated that Cell's power had been severely cut as well and it was dropping too, but not as fast as Goku's.
This difference in power starts there in stamina upkeep. Power and strength play into that. However, where Cell's power dramatically takes flight is after he took the Senzu. Now you gotta remember that what Cell is, is not only an biological android with incredible power on his own, but that genetics is infused with Saiyan genetics on top of Frieza beastly power growth potential. And seeing Frieza now as Golden Frieza and Goku and the other Saiyans now in god power, its a very clear indication that the increases in power Cell shows us that Cell gains zenkai boosts by a factor maybe 3 to 5 X greater than what the Saiyans gain.
Here is something else. Cell did not have Trunks and Gohan's cells. Had he did, I can't see how anyone could have beat him.
I truly feel like Gohans ultimate state will be able to Rival the Gods of the verse...if wrote correctly and he’s actually powerful in the manga rn
Okay so imma do the maths based on this video
MSSJ SSJ Goku = 1
MSSJ Gohan = 1.5
Perfect Cell = 2 (or at least this is where LSM and MJ put it. I'd say 3-3.5 myself)
SSJ2 CG Gohan = 6 (4x MSSJ Gohan)
SSJ2 Goku / Majin Vegeta = 6.5
SSJ Buu saga Goku = 3.25 (he'd HAVE to be to make up for the vast power difference between him and MSSJ Gohan, then the rage boost Gohan got)
SSJ3 Goku = 13
Overall Goku in SSJ3 would be 13x stronger than MSSJ Goku in the Cell Games.
@Martin Ramirez how. There's literally no proof of that. Goku and Majin Vegeta ONLY state they're above SSJ2 Cell games Gohan when in their own SSJ2 states. Anything below SSJ2 still isn't surpassing Gohan and Cell, not until the SSJG Ritual for Goku do we see a Base Saiyan surpass them.
12:00-13:20 In that sense, is it possible Goku saw a glimpse of Ultra Instinct in Gohan during their very brief exchange? Or, at least in the anime version, as I don't think they had that exchange in the manga version.
Finally someone is not afraid to admit that Majin Vegeta got a majin boost.
What ? Who said that vegeta didnt get a boost ?
@@moha94vss38 Yeah , i never even heard someone claim that he didn't. I mean the power boost was the whole point why he went majin.
Crazy part is the Buu Saga was a day long
SSJ - lightning around aura
SSJ2 - lightning inside aura
SSJ3 - lightning around body
I don't think cell was multiple times stronger than goku but more like 1.5 times stronger. You can't discount cells regeneration. When goku blew the top of cell away he put everything into that attack and it would have won the fight if cell didn't regenerate. And ssj2 being a 2x boost that'd put Gohan ahead of cell about the amount he was over goku
Dunno. But frieza gained triple this the first day he trained in super
I would would say Gohan was around 15 Million when he fought Frieza & after the training in the time chamber was 250 Million Cell at full power was around 260 or 270 Million which is 20 percent stronger then Goku was back then. Gohan at 325 Million which is nearly 50 percent stronger scary.
20 percent increase on top of his base, his ssj1 full power was 2.5 billion, since ssj1 multiplier is 50, 2.5 billion divided by 50 50 million, ssj3 goku's power level maxed out is 24 billion according to most scales, ssj3 multiplier is 400 times that of base form, so 24 billion divided by 400, equals to 60 million
Funny, this is similiar to my power level list.
Kid Buu is not the strongest. His power might be on the same level or "slightly" weaker than Super Buu.
But Kid Buu is crazy and has no sanity. He can do unpredictable things. Goku stated that in the Japanese version of the manga (and in Thai version), not the mistranslated English version.
As you can see, Goku and Vegita are terrified by the Super Buu when they separate from Potora, and Goku clearly said that they both have no chance against Super Buu which is much stronger than the first version of Fat Buu (before he split into --- fat and THIN Buu). But when fighting Kid Buu, they both are chilling, using rock-paper-scissor to go one at a time, and Goku is quite confident that he can beat Kid Buu himself at that point.
--- For conclusion, I think Kid Buu is stronger than the "first" Fat Buu that Goku have fougfht with SS3 before (not the final one which lost more than half of his power to thin Buu), but a bit weaker or on the same level with Super Buu at most.
I would say that Fat Buu (pre-split) is more powerful than Kid Buu, but doesn't draw out his power due to the Kiao's influence, stronger after they split though.
@@Skorndrow-1 True. When the roles between good and evil were reversed as Super Buu (he also does have the power of both sides after all) he got much more powerful. Fat Buu had all that power but the influence of the Kaioshin was limiting his evil side and its power.
Pure Buu is always underestimated. He most certainly is on par with super buu but has the advantage of being a savage. Also seems that his magic and regen comes faster and more naturally in his Kid buu form.
no fat buu turee power was hold back by him not having kaio murormys as show in super manga
@@uncouthLIyouth No, he isn't underestimated, Super Buu is just ridiculously strong given how Gotenks would shitstomp Goku by Goku's own admissions.
I don't think Gohan was as strong as a Ssj3 against cell. Sure his hidden power probably did give him a nice boost, but there's no way it was anymore than another 50 percent of gohan mastered ssj on top of ssj2. If this were true, then he would probably be able to take on fat buu and hold his own well and possibly even beat him. I know you're probably about to say that "well since Vegeta stated that Goku was stronger than gohan during the cell games that you could just say that Ssj2 Goku is stronger than a hypothetical ssj3 term gohan" (that's the amount of power you're proposing he put out) and I just don't see that. If that were true then that means that Cell would've surpassed Ssj2 gohan when he came back as super perfect cell since gohan power was cut in half and cell was able to stalemate and even overpower this gohan without going full power himself. So it just doesn't make sense unless you make a bunch of assumptions that are kind bbn of far fetched.
Yeah if you look at hard evidence.its no way cell could have been twice as strong as goku.with heavy breathing.and scratches all over his body.maybe 1.25 but double not possible.
Characters always get a zenkai boost. You can confirm this with gotenks because he did fight majin boo (fat) lost and he obviously had gotten stronger afterwards when he fought super buu
"cell thought he could take everyone on the hillside without asenzu even after defeating goku" well using this to scale power is invalid because he couldn't even defeat just gohan!
He was stronger than Gohan before ssj2 so it wasn't false only reason he lost was because he was goating gohan to get angry and unlock ssj2
SUPREME KING AMV exactly. It would of been a longer fighter forsure, but he was still stronger than SS gohan
In my opinion the two elements that were the most crippling to the story were the implementation of power levels and zenkai boosts. They COULD have been done well, but I don't think they were. Same with the Super Saiyan transformation.
I still love the show! Though I haven't watched Super yet.
Didnt the zenkais stop after freeza saga.
@@darksith7282 I think for the most part, with the possible exception of Cell after he exploded. And I haven't seen Super yet, so I'm not sure if it's used there.
But it was such an abused springboard. Bringing Goku from a power level of 90,000 to 3,000,000 after the fight with Ginyu. And similar with Vegeta after being blasted by Krillin on Namek.
Storm Rhode in the dbs manga they stated that goku and vegeta had trained so much that the zenkais became irrelevant.
As for cell, i think he absorbed the blast or goku’s cells which is why hecame back stronger as Super Perfect as well as knew how to do instant tramsmission.
Tbh its all due to the inconsistent writing.
@@darksith7282 One reason aspects like this and other examples of bad/inconsistent writing are so frustrating is because so much of the story is so well done and so fun.
I think if in the first place the zenkai was a tiny boost in strength or durability, as opposed to a potential massive multiplier, it would have been fine.
This is another comment of mine, this time with scaling for the Cell Games - Boo Saga.
I’ll do different scalings in the reply.
I’ll use Cell Game Base Kakkarot as a 1 and others above that number, these will have my numbers (low balled, I think).
Base Kakkarot - 1
Super Sayia-Jin Grade 4 Kakkarot - 50
Base Pre-Teen Gohan - 2
Base Pre-Teen Gohan (potential unlocked) - 6 (x3 Base Pre-Teen Gohan)
Super Sayia-Jin Grade 4 Pre-Teen Gohan - 100 (x50 Base Pre-Teen Gohan)
Super Sayia-Jin Grade 5 Pre-Teen Gohan (potential unlocked) - 600 (x100 Base Pre-Teen Gohan potential unlocked)
Perfect Cell - 200
Super Perfect Cell - 400
Boo Saga: Base Kakkarot - 8
Boo Saga: Super Sayia-Jin Grade 4 Kakkarot - 400
Boo Saga: Super Sayia-Jin Grade 5 Kakkarot - 800
Boo Saga: Super Sayia-Jin 3 Kakkarot - 3,200
Boo Saga: Base Kakkarot could be 7 so making him in Grade 4 = 350 & Grade 5 700 and for S.S-J 3 Kakkarot a 2,800
.
His power could be greater but I’ll stick what could make sense.
Base Kakkarot could have gotten that strong in 7 years but idk.
I think goku should have been significantly more stronger during the 7 years, technically in the other world he doesn't need sleep so he can train as long as he wanted, he has better training conditions, more and better way to train (increase of gravity, king kai adding weight to goku), he has more suited sparring partners like palkuhan who at least stronger than cell, he technically should have more masters that can advise him or unlock his hidden potential, he shoulded try to master his super saiyan 2 like his super saiyan 1 knowing all the downside of the super saiyan 3, learn new techniques and tactics, and he shoulded to experiment further his super saiyan 3 knowing he's at the right place
Vegeta 7 years later was at 350 Million scary from 200 Million many times more powerful.
You gotta make a video on whos stronger Pikkon or Cell Games Gohan
no they are not even, Goky already had SSJ3 unlocked. Goky was allowing Vegeta to think they were equal
I thought Goku was about 75 percent of Full Power Cell. And Gohan was about 80 percent. But 25 percent is a lot.
Obviously alot
Goku was only ssj1 ( mastered super Saiyan specifically) during cell saga
By the time the Buu saga started he had already obtained ssj2 and ssj3
So he's about 8 times stronger if you go according to the multipliers (x2 for ssj2 and ssj2 x4 for ssj3)
I think Goku after a year of training in the hyperbolic chamber knew his body put limits on his power, and figured out by being dead he could train at his fullest so he was purposefully going to yeet himself dead one way or another.
Vegeta didn't acknowledge Goku to be stronger than SSJ2 Gohan until he himself went SSJ2. This means that even in the Buu Saga, SSJ1 Goku is still not stronger than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan. SSJ1 Gohan was only a little weaker to a little stronger than SSJ1 Goku and SSJ2 doubles your power.
Goku didn't even double his base power from Cell to Buu Saga. He literally only got SSJ forms to force his power to multiply beyond his natural limits with SSJ2 and 3
This lines up because when he comes out the time chamber Goku tells Gohan that there's no more training to be done, that he's reached his limit. People like to think he just meant that they needed to rest, but Goku straight up says "if I do nothing in the chamber for a year my power will diminish". Why would he do nothing for a year if he could just rest for ten days in the chamber and then train more for the rest of the year? Because he meant it when he said there is no more training for him to do. Couple this with the fact that Vegeta confirms that Goku isn't stronger than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan until he himself is SSJ2, it's clear Goku didn't actually gain much strength from Cell to Buu.
Also Zenkai definitely dropped. People are mistaking a lot of things in Super for Zenkai.
Black wasn't getting a zenkai from fighting Goku the first time. He just used his pain as motivation, he got stronger from starting to fight like Goku hence the scene of him mimicking Goku's fighting style after and gaining strength from it.
In the ToP, I mean you literally have to recover from the near death experience for a Zenkai to work. Goku and Vegeta in the ToP weren't getting Zenkai boosts they were just getting stronger as they fought, as in training against hard opponents and boosting from it (plus the new forms).
Once you get enough Zenkai's the effect drops off and starts to not matter, even in Super. Cell only got such a huge one from being so strong, being such a severe injury, and more importantly never having had a Zenkai boost before that so it was bound to be huge.
A lot of the scaling in Super makes sense and fits with Z's logic when you think about it without preconceived notions about Z, they really work as one entity.
@Martin Ramirez That's not true at all. That's not even physically possible without god ki lol.
If Buu Saga Base Goku was stronger than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan, then Vegeta wouldn't have made that comment, simple as that.
@Laughingstock Media, what if Goku didN'T give Cell a Senzu Bean?
kid buu fought against fat buu and was much stronger than fat buu.
I think Goku thought that Kid Buu was about the same level as Fat Buu but realized that he was stronger and there was also the fact that he lost energy much faster than Kid Buu. I think the real ones were about the same strength, only Goku had the problem with the energy loss. I think even if he had gotten a bean and fought at 100%, he would have lost in the long run. You can only defeat Buu if you are much stronger than him and therefore do a lot more damage to him over time, which Goku wasn't, or you just use the Genkidama. I rate Kid Buu on the same level as normal Buu. It's just that Kid Buu fights much more wildly and has no morals and the like, which makes him more dangerous. In terms of spirit and character, he is much more dangerous because he fights purely instinctively.
Do half-Saiyans get zenkais? I don't think they do because we've never seen that, and that statement from Buutenks. But then again, Cell got a boost when he's a lot less Saiyan than that.
Goku's the reason for life alert
have you got a playlist of the music you used in the background?
Yes, Goku went ALL OUT against Cell. But he did not use up all of his potential power, because he knew, Gohan was still there.
It would be interesting to know what would have happened, if it was just Goku and the situation would be similar to the Frieza situation on Namek. Where he went ALL OUT genkidama and then.........
Honestly, between you and me, I still think, Goku could have been able to defeat/ kill Cell!.....
I’ve been saying that for years! I personally don’t think Gohan Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Their fights with Cell didn’t really sell me on Gohan being legit stronger well not before going to the next level. If Goku did have a Frieza situation, some friends would have died and he would have became super Saiyan 2. A repeat of the Frieza arc. So I’m glad they went the route of passing the torch.