Just something to note: while Dr Gero didn’t know about super Saiyan, he did know about the Kaioken technique. So he very likely calculated how strong 17 & 18 needed to be from Goku’s base power increase over time, and then a kk multiplier happening at some point. He likely would have determined that being a new technique it could be honed and amped up higher over time, and would only need a second to kill the androids, so would have to make them outrageously strong. It certainly gives a plausible reason why they were so much stronger and didn’t know about super saiyan.
Gero underestimated the Saiyans way too much. Once Goku and Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan it was over. Seeing as they could just always evolve the Ssj power to the level
Ok but if Gero was able to create androids that were stronger than a Super Saiyan then who's the say that he couldn't have just made them powerful enough to be unmatched by any entity? How was he even able to figure out how to make them so powerful to begin with?
You know what I found interesting, the largest power on earth at the time when gero was taking samples would have been ape vegeta, now while he wasn't at full strength if we put him at 130000, if gero just trued to make an android around 10 times stronger he would have been around ssj namek goku's level
@@ArchangelRG09 What I mean is; low effort is not the same as purposely holding back. For example: Trunks' attacks on Frieza could've been 50% power, but his attacks on Goku only 1% Sure, Goku could've easily taken Frieza out, but not necessarily by using the same amound of power he used in his finger to stop Trunks' sword.
@EndoScorpion we ll never truly know except that Trunks admitted he used the same slashes that cut up Frieza right after Goku deflected it. That could obviously mean matching the same holding back since Trunks ki made Frieza's ki look ridiculously small so yes, if Goku powered up his finger like he did in that demonstration, in theory he could slice up Frieza's mecha body just as easily.
Little gripe/unreleated but No matter how strong he got I'll always like the Namek SSJ design with the fluffy yellowish/white hair more than Mastered SSJ despite Mastered being the better version of the form, I alway's wish they kept that fluffy effect.
@@ssppeeaarrThey look like 90's teenagers using several tubs of glue to spike their hair up. The Namek look made it seem like the hair was being lifted up by the aura of his power, not like it got a yellow erection.
I used to have Goku becoming twice as strong as he was back in Namek, to be honest. Enough to handle King Cold and Freeza with one hand behind his back, in a manner of speaking.
@@WaveForcefulWe don’t know frieza was in his full power state. Especially when gohan stated that frieza gets much stronger than the energy they were sending. And we never saw frieza power up
@@trisxart2393android 17 and 18 above 900 million, ssj trunks was 2x namek ssj goku since mecha frieza was namek ssj goku level and when he used his stronger attack, trunks literally stopped it with one hand not even trying, that means ssj trunks was over 2x namek ssj goku level, probably 2.5x namek ssj goku, so ssj trunks at 375 million, ssj goku was probably around 30% stronger than trunks since he could easily block all of trunks attacks, and while trunks was probably holding back a little gokucwas ALSO holding back, so yardrat ssj goku at 500 million
12:18 To be fair King Cold was a very knowledgeable man. Throughout his years he learned quite a few things about the universe. He knew of Majin Buu and Beerus. He even warned his son to never challenge them. So who's to say he didn't know of things like the Z sword? The Z sword is said to make the wielder more powerful so maybe that's why he thought taking Trunks' sword would make him stronger than Trunks
Even until the very end of the Buu saga, the power levels were still comprehensible, even if they were very high. You could still draw a through line between Frieza, Cell, and Buu and our heroes power-wise without breaking your brain. For whatever reason the writers decided to make these guys into parodies of themselves in Super where they could just punch cracks in the multiverse by flicking their wrist.
The problem with Super is that the effects of having Goku absorb the God form into his base can't even be described as powercreep, it was like a whole powerspike
ya u can blame death battle and superman fan boy hype for that. toriyama was deff watchin and upset. lolz. but dbs has some good things it gave us. broly and goegeta canon being one of my favs.
I was with you up to your thoughts on post-ROSAT levels. You’re definitely correct with the 200-300 million SSJ estimate after the 3 years training. But if you keep scaling through the rest of the arc by the time they fight Cell they are definitely around 4-5 billion in SSJ form
If you think that goku had a 33x zenkai boost on namek in that healing chamber… if he got a boost like that at any time in cell saga that would put his 150.000.000 power from namek to 5 billion
Two things that really bugged me about the training the character underwent in this arc. Why didn't the humans use grav-training? Even 10x would've made a significant difference. Not saying they needed to go 300 like Vegeta, but just look at what Goku achieved in 6 days under 100g. Based on how well they improved while training with Kami, and with King Kai - if the humans trained under 100g for 3 years, they might've caught up with, or even exceeded SSJ Goku. The other thing: we know saiyans get zenkai boosts, with bigger boosts granted for having taken more damage... you would think they would want to take MORE damage while training. However, Vegeta all throughout this arc, and Goku and Gohan in the RoSaT, trained with armour on. While would reduce the damge they took and thus reduce the zenkai boost. They didn't use weighted clothing either, as the armour was said to be very light. Imagine if Goku and Gohan used weighted clothing in the RoSaT..... they'd both be able to defeat Super Perfect Cell as Mastered SSJ1. All the heroes in this arc severely hindered their own progress. Oh but "plot reasons yaddy yaddy ya".... yeah well, don't introduce a plot device if you're going to ignore it later on.
Zenkai boost were kinda. Abandoned and foegotten after the freeza saga or i might say they were nerfed extremely compared to how crazy the power boost of zenkai was in the freeza saga
Bc Humans cant physically do what Saiyans do, they are built different cause one is a warrior race built to withstand heavy gravy while the other has severe limits in comparison. Tien and Yamcha were exceptions bc they were already dead and simply got used to it in their heavenly bodies and likely couldnt have done it had they not died.
@@ArchangelRG09 There is no hint of that anywhere. The humans have undergone the same training Goku has, and got way better gains in a shorter amount of time, on more than one occasion. Even if it took them longer to get used to higher gravity, Goku got used to 100g in less than 6 days. The humans had 3 YEARS! And they didn't even try. Also, the saiyans aren't all what Vegeta talks them up to be. He's massively biased. They aren't that great as a warrior race. Even their Super Elite Warrior, purposely bred to be the best of their best.... couldn't match up to Nail in the Namek saga. Nail who trains solo during his free time when he isn't tending to Guru. If Piccolo/Kami didn't split it's said he'd be even stronger than Nail. Even humans have shown to be better martial artists. Using ki in creative and unusual ways with much better mastery over controling and manipulating it. Where-as saiyans just brute force everything, and even then have to rely on transformations. They'd be nothing without them.
Precisely right, I don't know why the humans didn't think of use gravity and waight training together with tienshinhan, yamcha and krillin training together thus maximizing their gains over the course of the timeskip ( why didn't bulma make a wearable gravity generator that goes upto times ten for the armor and why didn't kami provide heavy waights for the time chamber ) As you can see I didn't touch on zenkai's or potential healing methods the saiyans could have utilized in the time chamber ( they could have gotten 10s to 100s of times stronger than they actually did, heck the saiyans alone could have gotten 100s to thousands of times stronger if the cast had used every opportunity that they were aware of for goodness sake's) Did you probably think that goku and gohan got so strong from just the time chamber because of the weak ten times Earth's gravity or wildly quick environmental changes in there
@EndoScorpion its still pretty well established the Saiyans have humans hilariously outgunned and no amount of gravity training was going to change that even if it were possible. Even if they were to learn kaioken they still would not have changed a thing bc a Saiyans minimum power multiplier is 50x while Kaioken again if at any all possible for humans would be 20x at max. Ill say it again, humans have limitations and 10x gravity is likely the best we could ever do.
Well thanks to Dbs we know now to learn Instant transmission you have to learn to balance your spirit Aka spirit control and by doing that alone it gave vegeta an incredible power boost before he ever learned any of the Yardrats techniques.
So glad you explained to the nimwits that thinks goku could easily handle trunks when trunks was only holding back. Plus saying goku got really strong on yardsat when getting strong wasnt even his goal.
LSM it’s quite literally the equivalent of going from 300 pounds to 1 pound for Vegeta’s training. I don’t think anyone believed that all the Z warriors were stronger than frieza going into the androids saga. Piccolo’s statement served to highlight just how serious of a threat they would be dealing with and was the impetus fig the warriors to take their training more seriously than ever. Although in reality vegeta seems to be the only one who took his training to the degree necessary to keep up with 14 and 15. His determination was fueled by the humiliation and anger he experienced witnessing 2 others attain ssj before him.
I think if not for the heart virus already beginning to hurt Goku before his fight with 19 began (Piccolo notices Goku breathing heavy), Goku would have been about equal to Super Saiyan Vegeta; perhaps slightly stronger and would have easily defeated 19! The reason Vegeta was able to close the gap between them is he was only focused on making himself stronger, training like a madman to not only become a Super Saiyan, but also to be stronger than Goku. Whereas Goku spent much of his focus on helping Gohan and Piccolo get stronger, not just himself.
I absolutely agree Goku does not reach the billion mark at that, i however think he is stronger than what you think because you forgot a key point: the zenkay boost he got after Namek. He nearly died in tha explosion so even withouth training he got stronger because of that, let's add the 3 years training, i believe his power level is now in the 400-500 million range... maybe closer to 400 million.
I always thought that Trunks and Goku were probably fairly even when they first met, with Goku maybe being a bit stronger. Though, I would say that in terms of pure skill, Goku was definitely better simply because he'd been fighting since long before Trunks was even born
This aint a big deal in terms of this video, but it’s always bothered me how, after such a massive jump in power in the saiyan arc, how the Earthlings NEVER train together 😂
Piccolo was nearly as strong as Vegeta and Goku on namek toward the end. Piccolo grew strong enough to take Android 20. Are we gonna assume that piccolo grew his base power by 100 fold, and the Saiyans gained like 10-20%? 50 times 1/5 if your power level is still a 10x increase in base
You should make a video on how Goku refused Purunga bringing him to Earth. Is it as simple as Purunga asking Goku hey you want to come back to Earth? Did they have some sort of communication. 😅
I’ve always wondered that too especially when they made the wish on namek vegeta would of refused to go to earth but the wish teliported him before he even knew what happened
Y'know as much as Chi Chi's sword gag from Master Roshi's joke of her being why Goku isn't coming back comes out of nowhere because haha... Chi Chi owning a sword to begin with makes sense considering her being the Ox King's daughter. I don't doubt Ox King would have had more than just an axe in an armory, and also it would have been cool if Chi Chi actually knew how to wield a sword. Maybe Gohan would have been a swordsman himself, or used any other number of weapons if Chi Chi thought bare martial arts would be great supplemented by weapons usage.
Far as I’m concerned 😂…Yamcha got his power boost from trying to make it to the power button to turn it off…when he was messing with the gravity machine on the capsule corp.ship😎😎😎
They all would be a lot stronger if they used grav-training and weighted clothing. The saiyans wearing armour in the RoSaT also would've negated their zenkai boosts too. It's like they were all purposely trying to hinder their training, rather than amplifty it.
@@EndoScorpion exactly what I thought as well ( they literally did everything that hindered their training except not training) honestly the androids could have been a much scarier threat if the humans had used all the opportunities available and were still defeated by 19 and dr gero/20 because we'd know that the human z fighters literally did everything they could to prepare for the androids but no we got this: human z fighters; let's go our separate ways and train alone rather than training together and sparing with each other using a gravity chamber.
what I don't get is, when Goku is healed after his battle with vegeta in the saiyan saga, why do people still say his power level as being 8k? he should have zenkai'd from that healing, right?
I'm commenting this before the video starts but I always assumed Goku got a Zenkai boost from recovering from the Heart Virus as well. I feel like someone might have covered this already.
I kinda have the same Idea tbh because got beat up by 19 plus the virus I think he can take on android 16 after being healed then again piccolo took on gero after absorbing vegetas energy and some of piccolos energy who ate a senzo bean himself who goku sparred with so I believe a healthy full power goku would take on 16 the fight we never saw which is a shame itself
I think Goku knew about basically everything on Namek after he read Krillins mind if I’m correct. So i think he was more angry about him losing his friend again not that he couldn’t be brought back.
When Goku fought Frieza, he had a power level of 3 million. When he originally transformed it was likely 2-2.5 million from being in a weakened state and slowly crept back up as he continued to fight Frieza. When Trunks arrives, Goku likely has a base power level of approximately 3.5-4.5 million to Trunks’ 3-3.5 million When the Androids arrive, Goku & Vegeta have base power levels of approximately 6-8 million, which might not seem like much but is basically double (or triple-quadruple in Vegeta’s case) what they accumulated throughout the series to that point. The others all likely doubled or tripled their powers as well, with the exception of Piccolo, who benefited greatly from training with SSJ Goku and likely even put himself above Frieza. This makes perfect sense to me because in creating Android 19, Gero likely expected Goku to have a base power of 6-15 million and the ability to perform a 15-20x Kaioken, which is why he is so surprised but not completely intimidated by the Super Saiyan form, because he actually expected Goku to be as strong as he was in base form. When fighting Cell, Goku likely has a base power level of approximately 27 million and Gohan is upwards of 30 million, which would put their ascended SSJ forms (x75 multiplier) in the 2 billion to 2.4 billion range. Not even a year of actually training against another Super Saiyan allowed them to surpass both Vegeta & Trunks quite easily. This also makes sense to me because in creating Androids 16, 17 & 18, Gero was likely prepared for Goku to have a base power of 20-25 Million and the ability to perform a 20-30x Kaioken. He needed Androids that could defeat a Goku fighting at power levels of 400-750 million for brief periods of time. He could have no way of knowing that Goku could discover forms that would give him 50-75x multipliers.
This is what I believe. Him and Gohan mastering super saiyan raised their base power but kept the same multiplier. This follows the narrative. Goku says he’s stronger than Vegeta. Goku says Gohan is stronger than him. The numbers fall in line with that. My numbers a little lower than yours cause I assume Mech Frieza wasn’t stronger than Namek Goku like he said. Frieza can’t sense power levels so how the fukk would he know how strong Goku was? He wouldn’t. I had him at 135M. A lot stronger than Namek Frieza but still behind Namek Goku. That way when Trunks showed up around 2.8M, he was able to clap Frieza and Cold. I don’t believe in domination multipliers. Being 5 million lower in battle power getting ya clapped. But yeah good post fam. I don’t see how Goku doubles up his 3M before he gets back to Earth. 4M or 4.5M sounds about right.
Those numbers are ok but for me they would just have any reasonable if the namek power levels were freeza full form 12 millions and goku 15 millions. Goku going from 90.000 to 3.000.000 is too much and i don’t think that he got some power up below that type of power up in hyperbolic time chamber. Also, i don’t agree with the x75 multiplier for grade 4 ssj. That would mean ssj2 is only a little stronger than mastered super saiyan.. unless ssj2 is double than mastered super saiyan that would be x150 power base
Yeah grade 4=mastered super saiyan is always stated to be the same x50 as grade 1 minus the stamina burn. That’s why I had to head canon the concept of mastering super saiyan lol they were obviously stronger for it. Grade 4 should be a base multiplier. Subtle but effective. 1.5x base get us in the ball park of super saiyan Goku and Gohan being above Ultra Trunks who would be significantly weaker in base. Gohan being around 25M puts his ss2 at 2.8B full power. SPC being 1.3B and everybody else scales to fit. I also said the same thing about the numbers like bruh, if Goku was at 30 on Namek, going super saiyan and getting to 1500 woulda still been epic lol
@@maniacslap1623 That works too. SSJ was a x 50 multiplier that slightly decreased stamina SSJ Grade 2 was a stamina draining x 75 multiplier that slightly decreased speed SSJ Grade 3 was a x 100 multiplier that greatly decreased speed & stamina SSJ Grade 4 was a 50x multiplier that didn’t drain stamina. Training with one another and remaining in SSJ dramatically increased Goku & Gohan’s base power to the point they did not need a x 75 multiplier like Vegeta & Trunks in order to keep up with Cell.
The fact that Dr. Gero thought he could surpass SSJ Vegeta by absorbing the energy of characters like Krillin or Tien has always intrigued me. I believe that Toriyama, at the beginning of this saga, wanted to do a sort of reboot regarding the power levels of the characters to try to equalize them a bit, but ultimately, he didn't achieve it.
I've always assumed that he first gained then actually LOST strength right before Androids 19 & 20 showed up as he started being symptomatic for the Heart Virus.
I can clearly see in the manga in the Video when I pause here. Goku saying "I just won't let you.. you're not gonna get away with this" when Goku saw Frieza killing his best friend Krillin by exploding him from the inside in the air. I know in the original Z dub Goku says "I won't let you get away with this" and in the Dragon Ball Kai dub I guess because the Kai dub producers wanted to make it more dramatic they make Goku say "you ruthless heartless bastard! I will make you suffer! I prefer Sean Schemmel's Performance in the Kai dub."
Thank you! I enjoyed the reasoning behind this! I know you personally don't like super but, the feats seen near the beginning of the show or even later on would hint that Gokus base isn't that much higher than the freeza arc. Idk what you think Gokus base is at the end of z. But I never believed it to be a crazy amount stronger than his original 3 million.
I think it makes sense that 17 and 18 are one the same level or slightly stronger than Frieza. But in that case, why did Trunks have so much trouble with the Andriods? Well, I think it's acceptable to believe that 17 and 18 are always at "100%." They don't need to charge or rev up since they're perpetual energy models. However, Trucks got the jump on Frieza and King Cold. If he had let Frieza charge up, he probably would have still won, but it may have been a much longer, more drawn out battle. If you take the Z Fighter's feats as reference, i think that also tracks. I totally believe that Piccolo after fusing with Kami would have beat Frieza, but against 17, they were about equal.
I'd argue that the humans always got more out of training than Goku did, all the humans were stronger than raditz besides Chiaotzu in the Saiyan Saga so it might be a bad argument. Both the cell and Frieza Saga imply that Goku had gained self-mastery, meaning there was no master above him that he could learn from. This is probably true for the Z Fighters as well. This is of course retconned in super but not really, even the manga implies that ultra instinct is just stuff Goku's already learned. The room of Spirit and Time gravity levels are lower then the gravity chamber. The room of Spirit and Time is just an asspull. Technically these characters had around 5 years of training as Goku didn't return for around 2 years.
At the very least Goku is 2x stronger than on Namek, basically Goku should be around 6-7 million in base, Trunks being around 6-7 million if we assume he caught up with Goku, with Piccolo being somewhere around 180-240 million if Dr. Gero and Android 19 should be somewhere around Goku's level on Namek, somewhere between 160-230 million seeing as Piccolo alone could fight against Dr.Gero/Android 20 and actually pressure him, Vegeta in base being around 7.5-8 million since they say he's stronger than Goku, Gohan should be around 6 million if we're to believe he's close enough to Goku in power he could go back and forth a bit, Tien is around 6 million, Krillin 3-5 million, and Yamcha around 3-5 million (I do believe Tien might be stronger, he had a partner to train with and his power growth in underrated..) Chiaotsu probably around 1-2 million, so overall everyone is fairly relative aside from Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo..but then the power jump from them to 16, 17, 18, and Cell is insane..18 should be at around 700-800 million, 17 is around 800-900 million, Kamiccolo should be around 1-1.2 billion with 16 being about 1.5 billion and Cell being 1.4 billion, I got these numbers through multipliers and how they compare against Vegeta, Goku, and Trunks in Super Saiyan, 50 times Goku and Trunks should be at 300-350 million with Vegeta being at 375-400 million which if we take Trunks' example, he could fight one of the androids from the future and they're weaker than the ones in the present, so the math adds up that they are around that level in this timeline, I could get into the levels for after Imperfect Cell, but the levels are ridiculous..the multiplier for Neo Tri Beam is over a thousand times, if we say Semi-Perfect Cell is even 3-4x stronger that makes sense since it damaged him..making Tien's strongest move's multiplier at this point 6 billion..so I can see why they stopped trying to record power levels at this point...
I have a hart time believing that the SS1 transformation is a 50x multiplier or at least not consistantly (we are talking about Toriyama after all). Goku was very heavily battle damaged and worn out when he first transformed and Toriyama wanted a final epic fight. I personally believe that the SS1 transformation is more then a 50 times multiplier but that is just me.
You know Mike I never actually read the Book Journey to the west. I have watched the film adaptation Journey to the West Conquering the Demons and watched a few episodes of the anime series Saiyuki and Saiyuki Reload online and I might get back to the rest of the Saiyuki Episodes and Saiyuki Reload episodes online in the Future.
i am proud to be the reason he fixes things in his videos. as im always pointing things out that he missed/got wrong. and i have to say for this video? you got everything. i have nothing to complain about. subscribed and liked.
Goku was not more powerful than Trunks when they sparred. They were the same strength. He was just far more skilled due to way more training and experience.
Naw Goku shoulda been slightly more powerful. Because he had a lot more combat experience, got completely wrecked in the saiyan saga, 100g training, the Ginyu beat down AND the Frieza fight. Unless Trunks is getting clapped by the androids to near death every day, he shouldn’t be as strong as Goku. I always thought of Trunks as the ssj Vegeta of Namek Saga that we never got to see. Slightly weaker than Goku at the time but with ssj. I always start low with Trunks. Him being as strong as he is at his age just foreshadows our own Gohan’s leap in power. A teenager with even close to Namek Goku’s power AND ssj is still impressive. Future Gohan right before he’s killed says he wanted to be as powerful as Goku when he got back from Yardrat and that Trunks was close to surpassing his own power at the time. Roughly a few years before Trunks goes back in time. That Gohan was significantly weaker than our Gohan because he wouldn’t have trained after Namek NOT knowing about the androids.
I’d argue Goku if he didn’t have the heart virus thing he would have been super vegeta level at the start of the android arc at the 19 fight most likely. Since he stopped trunks sword with his finger makes sense.
I have it like this Goku(Vs Freeza)=3.000.000 Goku(Kaioken x10)=30.000.000 Goku(Kaioken x20)=60.000.000 Goku(Super Saiyajin)=150.000.000 Goku(Post Yardrat)=4.000.000 Goku(Super Saiyajin)=200.000.000 Goku(3 Years later)=6.000.000 Goku(SS,Sick)=150.000.000-300.000.000 Goku(SS,Not Sick)=300.000.000
I think the official power levels are inconsistent. Here are the figures I came up with for Goku... FRIEZA SAGA Goku, Suppressed: 3.6 million Goku, Base: 4 million Fights at this level against Frieza for the most part. Goku, Base: 4.8 million Power increases after recovering. Comes back from near-death after Frieza connects with the Nova Strike. Super Saiyan Goku: 240 million Goku's power as a Super Saiyan Goku fluctuates heavily throughout the fight. This is the final power level I have him at. One year later.... TRUNKS SAGA Goku: 6 million Super Saiyan Goku: 300,000,000 Three years later... ANDROID SAGA Goku: 18 million Super Saiyan Goku: 900 million This is if he's healthy, of course.
Power Level..Lets See(Daizenshuu States That if you take no damage from the attack then you are at least twice as stronger as you opponent or the Ki Blast attack your Oppenent is outputting. Based On Power Scaling 1: The Andriod 18 and 17 future or Current I bare minimum twice as Strong Namek SS1 Goku. Over 300 Million. 2:Imperfect Cell absorbing so Many Humans Tanked Piccolo Ki attack without Damage That Even 17 Ducked for cover..Over 600 Million. Suppressed Semi Perfect Cell Tanked Andriod 16 Punch without Damage: Over 1 Billion and 200 Million Super Vegeta Between 1.3 and 1.5 Billion. Semi Perfect Cell at Full Power was Able To Damage and Slightly Make Vegeta Bleed..But Damage Was Minimumal. Suppressed Perfect Cell: Betwen 2.6 and 3 Billion. Tanked Vegeta Kick with Do Damage. 50% SS Full Power Goku: (Guide Book States Its Ten times a stronger the unmaster SS1 Form): Stronger Then Super Vegeta by Huge Margin and Korrin Had to put Thought if 50% Goku Could Win oe not against Supprssed Perfect Cell: Bare Minimum/Lowball: Over 2 Billion 100% SS Full Power Goku: Over 4 Billion Full Power Perfect Cell: 6 Billion Suprssed Rage Boosted SS2 Gohan Tanking Perfect Cell Punch Without Damage: Over 12 Billion Mentally Nerfed SS2 Gohan with Broken Arm: Held his Own against Super Perfect Cell.. Was 50% Due to Be mentally defeated: 10 Billon Super Perfect Cell: Over 12 Billion Enraged SS2 Gohan at Full Power Finish Cell: Over 24 Billion. In the original translation Goku after 7 years of Training Rival or Surpass Rage boosted SS2 Gohan in Cell Games. Buu Saga Base Goku: 25 Million SS grade 4: 12.5 Billion SS2 Goku: 25 Billion SS3 Goku: 100 Billion. So Base Buu Saga Goku is over 8 Times Stronger then Namek Base Goku. While Buu Saga SS Grade 4 Goku is over 83 Times More powerful then Namek SS Goku.
Good calculations, incidentally I also have base goku around 25 million during the buu saga and about 30 million when first meeting beerus ( I have a theory that you need a particular power level for each ssj form with initial ssj/ ssj1 needing a base of 3-4 million minimum, ssj2 = a base of 6-8 million, ssj3 = a base of 24-32 million : all of which are lowballed estimates
You should cover what if Bulma made the z fighters all gravity chambers to train in or what if Krillin Tien and Yamcha trained together rather than separately. or both and they trained together in a gravity chamber. and what if piccolo used his 2nd year in the Time chamber to train up Tien as it tri beam is insane and Tien then split his last year to train year to train up krillin and then yamcha and after they would use their remaining time to train together. so all the z fighters used 2 years in the time chamber imagine the different they could make in the anime when blasting super perfect cell during the beam struggle.
20:00 I think besides maybe Piccolo none of them Z-fighter was even close to Frieza's 1. form and forget his true Form. I don't even believe than any of them could have beat Frieza during Boo Saga.
He probably got stronger, but not very much. And yeah, I think King Cold has to be weaker. Freeza implies it himself, that he will prove that he's the strongest in the universe, which only makes sense if he's stronger than Cold. In the anime it's said that Cold is stronger, but Freeza probably wasn't using his full power yet (since he needs some time to power up), and that would also explain why he went down so easily. And weirdly enough, I don't think he got that much stronger in the three years of training either. Like, after Trunks came back, was there anything that actually implied that Goku and Vegeta were that much stronger than him? If they were still relative, then Goku didn't get that much stronger. Which is kinda silly, because three years is a lot of time, and in that same amount of time, Piccolo went from a power level of like, 1 million, to SSJ levels. So, he became over 150 times stronger between fusing with Nail and 19 and 20 showing up, and that was after, in a short amount of time, going from Raditz level to getting strong enough to impress Nail, who was like, Ginyu Force level. Piccolo's potential is insane. Imagine if he actually learned the Kaioken. And trained with Whis in Super. With Kaioken x20 Ultimate Orange God Ultra Instinct Piccolo, on top of an SSJ-tier base form, there would have been no plot.
Piccolo was the spawn of a super elite namekian. Being trained for a year by king Kai must have boosted him from a few thousand to a few hundred thousand. Nail was definitely super high tier among his species and he couldn't have been more than a couple hundred thousand at best. Two Namekian fusing more than doubles their capacity.
It honestly makes sense why the dragon balls were able to unlock his potential and plus more. Piccolo has been training after Goku got god forms and still hit a power barrier where the saiyans, androids and even maijins break easily. Piccolo couldn't get as strong as the others because his body peaked, and only could stronger if he did the u6 approach and fused with more nameks. It's a shame it took shenron to unlock all that untapped power he couldn't reach on his own. I'm happy piccolo was able to have his potential unlocked(I dub it ultimate piccolo) but orange piccolo is a bit much though but cool
@@deckzone3000 Yeah, it may not be all that precise in the details. Can't tell exactly how strong he was against Freeza, or when how much of the gainz happened (though we do know that he still wasn't strong enough to fight Freeza when he came to Earth). Point is, he got stronger by an absurd amount.
@@deckzone3000 Duh, you think im stupid? He's talking about piccolos growth and potential in Z and I talked about how he capped in super and needed his power awakened. I don't see why you don't see the correlation in our comments
@@deckzone3000 Not the point, and incorrect. Z Piccolo and DBS Piccolo are the same person. You're making it sound like I'm Talking about GT piccolo who is an entirely different character. My point is piccolo trained from the android saga(after he gets surpassed by super Vegeta), the buu saga, and in super he was capped until he wished for his potential to be unleashed
In my mind, When I watched the show as a kid, Goku barely got stronger at all between beating Frieza and the arrival of the androids (instant transmission being the main improvement), because I imagined Super Saiyan as a limit (and it's presented as such at the beginning of the Cell saga). In my mind, the reason Goku struggled with Frieza on Namek was naturally because Frieza was the final boss of the Namek arc (ie: narration wise, a satisfying battle was required), the fact Goku let Frieza power up to 100%, and also the fact that Goku was pretty worn out by the time he managed to turn Super Saiyan. That'd explain why Trunks or Goku could easily defeat Frieza and Cold on earth, when they're at 100%, have people to protect, and are not interested in giving them a chance this time around.
I don’t feel like he struggled. He just didn’t wanna kill him. The gap in power had went so far into his favor that Frieza wasn’t a challenge anymore. Is the way I saw it. I agree with u saying ain’t no way in hell Goku got that much stronger on Yardrat. He healed. He learned to transform at will. He learned instant transmission. Not too much time to actually train. No Namek like battles giving him extra boosts. 4-4.5M sounds about right.
@@maniacslap1623 When I said struggled, I meant the fight took forever. Again, I believe that since Frieza was the boss of the Namek saga, this was a plot necessity. Had Goku insta-killed Frieza like Trunks did, it would have been a very anticlimactic end to the saga. So this does not mean that Goku is weaker than Trunks, just that the plot demanded the fight to drag out.
Goku definitely had a PL over 8k when he started his trip to Namek. Vegeta got a massive Zenkai from the fight, why would goku be the same, when with even your own relative Zenkai theory, which i love, means Goku faced a being with a PL of ~180k
@Antoniodagreat nope, Base vegeta, trunks, gohan and goku were all at least 5x namek ssj goku, at the cell games, I have trunks in base at 875 million, vegeta at 900 million, Goku at 1.7 Billion and Gohan at 2.1 Billion
the other thing is though, it's stated in universe that Gero's spy drone that was watching Goku witnessed and collected data from his fight with Frieza, are we to believe in the main timeline that the drone was not there to witness Trunk go super saiyan and kill him with ease? was Gero not able to collect data from the drone/s in that 3 years?
Yeah, the thing Frieza wasn't taking into account was the fact that Goku was injured during their fight on Namek. Goku wasn't even close to his full power during their battle.
Mike, I just realized that the androids were surprised Goku could become super saiyan, however both trunks and goku went super saiyan after frieza amd king cold arrived on Earth. Dr. Gero obtained Friezas DNA to create Cell so they should have had knowledge of the SSJ transformation right?
We see more range of power in SSJ1 than the other transformations. By the time Toriyama got to SSJ2, he seemed to have kind of abandoned the concept of unlocking different "grades" or gaining mastery over a transformation (at least, we never hear the characters explicitly state anything about mastering SSJ2, there is some dialogue that may suggest it). By Buu saga, if a saiyan needed more power they'd just gain a totally new transformation or y'know, fuse. But the thing that always kind of seems strange is that going from SSJ1 to SSJ2 simply doubles the power (SSJ is widely considered a 50x multiplier, SSJ2 is 100x), but it seems like the feats accomplished by SSJ and its different sub-grades require the power to have been multiplied by many-fold before SSJ2 was ever introduced. 100% power Frieza on Namek was able to hold his own a bit against SSJ Goku. The battle was more back-and-forth in the anime, but Frieza seemed comparable in power to a "newbie" Super Saiyan. Then when Trunks is introduced, SSJ can now merc two characters stronger than that with minimal effort. If Goku was equal or a bit above Trunks, that suggests his power had at least doubled when he arrived back on Earth, from fighting somewhat evenly with 100% Frieza to defeating someone of that power level with ease. I also remember in the Funi dub when Vegeta and Trunks emerge from the Spirit and Time chamber Vegeta states he can beat Cell by himself, Goku says something to the effect of _"Your power would've had to at least tripled to do that"_ I don't recall what the line was in the original manga (it was probably something completely different and the Funi statement thrown in there to be dramatic), but it was weird hearing a line suggesting that going from SSJ to SSJ Grade 2 triples the power of a Super Saiyan while it's stated SSJ to SSJ2 just doubles it. But at the same time, it made sense because Cell was already much, much stronger than the Androids, who were way stronger than the Super Saiyans. Someone only twice as strong as SSJ Goku on Namek couldn't possibly win against Semi-Perfect Cell let alone Perfect. I can only assume that SSJ2 actually doubles the power of a SSJ Grade 4/Full Power Super Saiyan and that a Full Power SSJ's power has already been multiplied several times from that of a newbie Super Saiyan, but we never find out exactly how much the power increase is from SSJ > SSJ Grades 2 and 3 > SSJ Grade 4 which really would help get a grasp on the amount of power Goku gained.
The ssj form used by Vegeta and trunks allowed you to pretty much pump your power level as high as your wanted while also immobilizing you. Ssj was known to be massive power drain as it essentially leaked out uncontrollably. Mastered SSJ just prevents this energy drain and allows you maintain and use that power instead.
@@deckzone3000 SSJ is widely accepted to be 50x base multiplier while SSJ2 is 100x base. The math says that's twice as strong. 2 x 50 = 100. Mastered state doesn't drain energy, which is a huge advantage for stamina, but doesn't really explain the massive strength increase. If the multiplier remains the same, it would mean the base gets stronger to increase the effectiveness of the 50x multiplier. Though if making the base stronger is the key, why do they specifically train to make the SSJ transformations stronger? I suppose now I'm just overthinking it.
@@deckzone3000 It's true that all the SSJ multipliers are speculative, which is why I call them "widely accepted" not necessarily canon. In the absence of concrete statements in the original story, guide book material is the closest thing fans have to go on. I wouldn't say citing guide book material is lazy/dumb. It's supplemental material, so certainly nothing in them is irrefutable and should be taken with a grain of salt, but it does provide some a kind consensus for a topic the manga itself gives almost no detail on.
Plot twist just because we didn't see the whole training the humans did. What if the humans excluding Chaozu and Yajirobe were training under a higher gravity. There is always the possibility of them using a higher gravity as well as Gohan and Piccoro Jr. and not just sparing with Kakarrot. Now don't attack me in the comments because I know nothing is proven it's just a theory. Also I know the movies are on a separate timeline, however if some of them were cannon then movies 4 & 5 could easily fit into the timeline as well as 8 later. So there was a potential here for getting a power boost.
Mike do think SSJ grade 4 Son Goku or Gohan could have beat Perfect Cell taking energy from Super Vegeta, Ultra Trunks, Kamiccolo, Tienshan, Krillin, and Yamcha they would win? Like how Broly was defeated
If they could have done so I'm guessing they would have. It's something they did before when Piccolo borrowed Gohan and Krillin's power to attack Frieza. However, I've been planning to do a video on that technique for a while now. So, I'm sure I'll talk about it more in-depth at some point.
Post 3 years; SsVegeta-340 million Ss Goku- 320 million Ss trunks- 250 million Piccolo- 85 to 150 million Gohan- maybe 4 million Tiens- 3.5 million (tri beam many hundreds times stronger) Krillin- 3.2 million Yamcha- maybe 2 million
I do agree Goku was stronger after Namek and the 3 years training for the Androids but I don't think by leaps and bonds the two biggest improvements were obviously Vegeta who became a Super Sayisn and was probably stronger than Goku on Namek whereas Piccolo was probably on par with Goku on Namek if not out right stronger. I do think Freiza got stronger as one of the Freiza Force bases was monitoring the battle which we see and it even measures both Freiza and Goku's power levels so chances are Freiza is roughly as strong as Goku was on Namek if not maybe a little stronger to make sure he would win. But also given who what Cell is maybe up of Dr. Gero knew who Freiza and King Cold were as Cell clearly knows some of Freiza's techniques and even has some of Freiza's personality.
I was always confused if ther was a Kaio-Ken x2 because in the games there is but like Kaio-Ken is already double the power of a base from what does x2 mean then
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD I don't think Cell is able to use the kaio-ken, he would've if he could but either Cells weren't gathered during a time when Goku was using it or Cell in a semi-SSJ state using it would've been too risky. Given he has the power of 2 Saiyan's I think that's likely, or Toriyama just forgot about it lol. Probably
Personally, if the statement in bog is accurate. Goku in base would be weaker than Final Form Frieza. So anywhere between 90-110 mill. High ball estimate. Now, Goku trains for a year or so on Yardrat. Goes maybe from 3 million to 6 million. After three years training with a weaker piccolo and Gohan, he would have gained a bigger boost but not that much. Prob went to 12-14 million base. About double to what he had after returning from yardrat. Which was difficult training there. And training with Gohan in hyperbolic time chamber would he substantial. Probably would be around 24-32 million. So double or more. Add in a stronger super Saiyan form. Would make sense and this could fit in line with BoG statement from Beerus.
I feel like the human characters are approaching Final form frieza levels by the end of their 3 years training, but that's about it. (keep in mind these goofballs rapidly surpass whoever the last major villain was at great speed, going from below Young adult Goku to surpassing Raditz in a year) but yeah, I don't think Goku at this point was like several times stronger than the previous saga just yet.
Hey Mike, what do you think about the power levels in the databooks? Goku jumps from 80 thousand to 3 million it's too difficult for my suspension of disbelief to accept.
In my opinion, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and piccolo getting like 50 times stronger during the three years isn't too unreasonable. The humans are more questionable though.
So i would love to see a video honestly power scaling the humans. I would say at the beginning of the android saga Piccolo could take freeza on Namek. Based on that filler fight in the anime which i say still counts yamcha and Tien were easily in the hundreds of thousands so its not unreasonable to think Krillin and them cleared 1 million by the time the androids showed up. Now by Buu could Tien or Krillin hang with Freiza? Sadly i dont think so, but they would have had a better showing than they did in the Freiza saga
10:41 I disagree that the statement contradicts king cold being possibly stronger or at least as strong. Gohan has no clue was king cold is capable of, no clue what techniques, no idea how much his power could potentially rise. Goku did beat him of course and I think that’s more so shows king cold may have been weaker more than that statement. However I do think after gohan said that, one of them should have mentioned the fact king cold looked like friezas 2nd form, I kinda dislike that they didn’t given what they know about frieza but don’t know about king cold. Even vegeta didn’t know about king cold
I can't wait for part 2 as I'm surprised u scaled Soo low For my scaling Htc trained SSJ in 10s-100s millions As I have perfect cell/gohan in hundreds of millions I've never scaled this high back in the day You'd be surprised the Namek saga broke Dragonball scale even more than android saga Here how I scale Goku 90k to 150mil is 1,666.67 times increase on namek 875mil v androids 160bil vs cell Meaning from namek to cell Only 1,066times increase Don't get me started on gohan
You don't think Goku got that much stronger after leaving the Room of Spirit and Time? How? (1)When Goku entered, he was weaker than the Vegeta who killed #19 but lost to #18. When he came out, he showed Korin half of his power and it impressed Vegeta to the point that he told Piccolo to hurry up and enter the Room so he could also go back in afterwards. This Vegeta was stronger than Simi-Perfect Cell who absorbed #17(who was stronger than #18. Meaning Goku got a significant boost in power. In fact, he gained more power in his 1 visit than Vegeta did in his 2 visits to the room. (2) In the Cell Games, Goku powered up, shocking everyone except Cell and Gohan. This proves that Goku was even stronger than the others anticipated and that Mastered Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Full Power is stronger than when they simply transform.
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Just something to note: while Dr Gero didn’t know about super Saiyan, he did know about the Kaioken technique. So he very likely calculated how strong 17 & 18 needed to be from Goku’s base power increase over time, and then a kk multiplier happening at some point. He likely would have determined that being a new technique it could be honed and amped up higher over time, and would only need a second to kill the androids, so would have to make them outrageously strong. It certainly gives a plausible reason why they were so much stronger and didn’t know about super saiyan.
The things is if they got freeza’s cell then they should
Be there to witness which ssj goku or trunks killed him and study his powee
Gero underestimated the Saiyans way too much. Once Goku and Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan it was over. Seeing as they could just always evolve the Ssj power to the level
Ok but if Gero was able to create androids that were stronger than a Super Saiyan then who's the say that he couldn't have just made them powerful enough to be unmatched by any entity? How was he even able to figure out how to make them so powerful to begin with?
You know what I found interesting, the largest power on earth at the time when gero was taking samples would have been ape vegeta, now while he wasn't at full strength if we put him at 130000, if gero just trued to make an android around 10 times stronger he would have been around ssj namek goku's level
@@darrellsimon4462 wasn’t SSJ Goku’s power level around 125000000? x10 ape vegeta wouldn’t have been close
Well enough probably to beat Mecha Frieza with one finger as a Super Saiyan
He could've done it when he met Trunks considering it was the same finger that repelled Trunks sword slashes
@@ArchangelRG09 Trunks was holding back against Goku. He wasn't holding back against Frieza. It's not the same.
@EndoScorpion Trunks defeated Frieza with very minimal effort, Goku was the same level, does it really make a difference?
@@ArchangelRG09 What I mean is; low effort is not the same as purposely holding back.
For example: Trunks' attacks on Frieza could've been 50% power, but his attacks on Goku only 1%
Sure, Goku could've easily taken Frieza out, but not necessarily by using the same amound of power he used in his finger to stop Trunks' sword.
@EndoScorpion we ll never truly know except that Trunks admitted he used the same slashes that cut up Frieza right after Goku deflected it. That could obviously mean matching the same holding back since Trunks ki made Frieza's ki look ridiculously small so yes, if Goku powered up his finger like he did in that demonstration, in theory he could slice up Frieza's mecha body just as easily.
Your making videos about all the things I’ve ever questioned throughout the series😅this is my favorite dbz channel
Thanks. Can I have a cameo in your next Spider-Man movie? 😉
Little gripe/unreleated but No matter how strong he got I'll always like the Namek SSJ design with the fluffy yellowish/white hair more than Mastered SSJ despite Mastered being the better version of the form, I alway's wish they kept that fluffy effect.
same, it’s honestly more iconic because it was the debut look.
ew fluffys!! gimme spikey detailed ss hair... all day everyday. 😁
@@ssppeeaarrThey look like 90's teenagers using several tubs of glue to spike their hair up. The Namek look made it seem like the hair was being lifted up by the aura of his power, not like it got a yellow erection.
My Head Canon is that it only appears in Grade 1 SSJ
Ssj in the namek saga looked the best
Yo! he said the finger is a move he learned from Chi Chi 😂😂😂😂 that caught me off guard
I used to have Goku becoming twice as strong as he was back in Namek, to be honest. Enough to handle King Cold and Freeza with one hand behind his back, in a manner of speaking.
If he was twice as strong, his Ssj state would of been 300 mil, meaning he could take on even android 17 and 18. Also being stronger than piccolo
@@WaveForcefulWe don’t know frieza was in his full power state. Especially when gohan stated that frieza gets much stronger than the energy they were sending. And we never saw frieza power up
@@hitrule5722 android used a different kind of power levels than goku and friends.
@@trisxart2393android 17 and 18 above 900 million, ssj trunks was 2x namek ssj goku since mecha frieza was namek ssj goku level and when he used his stronger attack, trunks literally stopped it with one hand not even trying, that means ssj trunks was over 2x namek ssj goku level, probably 2.5x namek ssj goku, so ssj trunks at 375 million, ssj goku was probably around 30% stronger than trunks since he could easily block all of trunks attacks, and while trunks was probably holding back a little gokucwas ALSO holding back, so yardrat ssj goku at 500 million
17 and 18 had 2 billions of power level actually 😅
12:18 To be fair King Cold was a very knowledgeable man. Throughout his years he learned quite a few things about the universe. He knew of Majin Buu and Beerus. He even warned his son to never challenge them. So who's to say he didn't know of things like the Z sword? The Z sword is said to make the wielder more powerful so maybe that's why he thought taking Trunks' sword would make him stronger than Trunks
What if Goku went in the HBOT with future Trunks for 2 years when Trunks first arrived.
Even until the very end of the Buu saga, the power levels were still comprehensible, even if they were very high. You could still draw a through line between Frieza, Cell, and Buu and our heroes power-wise without breaking your brain. For whatever reason the writers decided to make these guys into parodies of themselves in Super where they could just punch cracks in the multiverse by flicking their wrist.
The problem with Super is that the effects of having Goku absorb the God form into his base can't even be described as powercreep, it was like a whole powerspike
ya u can blame death battle and superman fan boy hype for that. toriyama was deff watchin and upset. lolz.
but dbs has some good things it gave us. broly and goegeta canon being one of my favs.
Actually it's true, Super isn't cannon. It isn't original content and Akira had little involvement in DBS. In comparison DBS is a corporate ass pull 💰
@@derekclawson5707dbs IS CANNON though, it HAS been confirmed cannon, so your opinion doesn't matter
@@billy75chook80why are you crying?
I was with you up to your thoughts on post-ROSAT levels. You’re definitely correct with the 200-300 million SSJ estimate after the 3 years training. But if you keep scaling through the rest of the arc by the time they fight Cell they are definitely around 4-5 billion in SSJ form
If you think that goku had a 33x zenkai boost on namek in that healing chamber… if he got a boost like that at any time in cell saga that would put his 150.000.000 power from namek to 5 billion
Yamcha got stronger from that one failed date in the gravity room lol
Two things that really bugged me about the training the character underwent in this arc.
Why didn't the humans use grav-training? Even 10x would've made a significant difference. Not saying they needed to go 300 like Vegeta, but just look at what Goku achieved in 6 days under 100g.
Based on how well they improved while training with Kami, and with King Kai - if the humans trained under 100g for 3 years, they might've caught up with, or even exceeded SSJ Goku.
The other thing: we know saiyans get zenkai boosts, with bigger boosts granted for having taken more damage... you would think they would want to take MORE damage while training. However, Vegeta all throughout this arc, and Goku and Gohan in the RoSaT, trained with armour on. While would reduce the damge they took and thus reduce the zenkai boost. They didn't use weighted clothing either, as the armour was said to be very light. Imagine if Goku and Gohan used weighted clothing in the RoSaT..... they'd both be able to defeat Super Perfect Cell as Mastered SSJ1.
All the heroes in this arc severely hindered their own progress. Oh but "plot reasons yaddy yaddy ya".... yeah well, don't introduce a plot device if you're going to ignore it later on.
Zenkai boost were kinda. Abandoned and foegotten after the freeza saga or i might say they were nerfed extremely compared to how crazy the power boost of zenkai was in the freeza saga
Bc Humans cant physically do what Saiyans do, they are built different cause one is a warrior race built to withstand heavy gravy while the other has severe limits in comparison. Tien and Yamcha were exceptions bc they were already dead and simply got used to it in their heavenly bodies and likely couldnt have done it had they not died.
@@ArchangelRG09 There is no hint of that anywhere. The humans have undergone the same training Goku has, and got way better gains in a shorter amount of time, on more than one occasion.
Even if it took them longer to get used to higher gravity, Goku got used to 100g in less than 6 days. The humans had 3 YEARS! And they didn't even try.
Also, the saiyans aren't all what Vegeta talks them up to be. He's massively biased. They aren't that great as a warrior race. Even their Super Elite Warrior, purposely bred to be the best of their best.... couldn't match up to Nail in the Namek saga. Nail who trains solo during his free time when he isn't tending to Guru. If Piccolo/Kami didn't split it's said he'd be even stronger than Nail.
Even humans have shown to be better martial artists. Using ki in creative and unusual ways with much better mastery over controling and manipulating it.
Where-as saiyans just brute force everything, and even then have to rely on transformations. They'd be nothing without them.
Precisely right, I don't know why the humans didn't think of use gravity and waight training together with tienshinhan, yamcha and krillin training together thus maximizing their gains over the course of the timeskip ( why didn't bulma make a wearable gravity generator that goes upto times ten for the armor and why didn't kami provide heavy waights for the time chamber )
As you can see I didn't touch on zenkai's or potential healing methods the saiyans could have utilized in the time chamber ( they could have gotten 10s to 100s of times stronger than they actually did, heck the saiyans alone could have gotten 100s to thousands of times stronger if the cast had used every opportunity that they were aware of for goodness sake's)
Did you probably think that goku and gohan got so strong from just the time chamber because of the weak ten times Earth's gravity or wildly quick environmental changes in there
@EndoScorpion its still pretty well established the Saiyans have humans hilariously outgunned and no amount of gravity training was going to change that even if it were possible. Even if they were to learn kaioken they still would not have changed a thing bc a Saiyans minimum power multiplier is 50x while Kaioken again if at any all possible for humans would be 20x at max. Ill say it again, humans have limitations and 10x gravity is likely the best we could ever do.
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He has the calculation of kakarot using the kaioken
500 million is a good estimate considering he was 120 while basically half dead before he transformed and then multiple years of train plus zenki
My problem is you don’t think Base Goku and Vegeta in the Buu arc are above Namek Frieza in base
I think it would be cool to see a video is Tienshan could have killed Android 17 or 18 with the Neo Tri-Beam that he used against Semi-Perfect Cell
I'm currently working on one. It will be out sometime in the near future.
@@LSMMIKE man if only I had a time machine
What a great, underrated scene. The last moment of glory for a non-Saiyan character in the entire franchise
@@ak47dragunov who knows maybe Buu saga Tien Could kill Cell because he was able to deflect one buutenks attacks
@@LSMMIKE he probably could have killed Imperfect Cell as well
Well thanks to Dbs we know now to learn Instant transmission you have to learn to balance your spirit Aka spirit control and by doing that alone it gave vegeta an incredible power boost before he ever learned any of the Yardrats techniques.
So glad you explained to the nimwits that thinks goku could easily handle trunks when trunks was only holding back. Plus saying goku got really strong on yardsat when getting strong wasnt even his goal.
LSM it’s quite literally the equivalent of going from 300 pounds to 1 pound for Vegeta’s training.
I don’t think anyone believed that all the Z warriors were stronger than frieza going into the androids saga. Piccolo’s statement served to highlight just how serious of a threat they would be dealing with and was the impetus fig the warriors to take their training more seriously than ever. Although in reality vegeta seems to be the only one who took his training to the degree necessary to keep up with 14 and 15. His determination was fueled by the humiliation and anger he experienced witnessing 2 others attain ssj before him.
I think if not for the heart virus already beginning to hurt Goku before his fight with 19 began (Piccolo notices Goku breathing heavy), Goku would have been about equal to Super Saiyan Vegeta; perhaps slightly stronger and would have easily defeated 19!
The reason Vegeta was able to close the gap between them is he was only focused on making himself stronger, training like a madman to not only become a Super Saiyan, but also to be stronger than Goku. Whereas Goku spent much of his focus on helping Gohan and Piccolo get stronger, not just himself.
But goku was training to beat the androids he wanted to be stronger too
I absolutely agree Goku does not reach the billion mark at that, i however think he is stronger than what you think because you forgot a key point: the zenkay boost he got after Namek.
He nearly died in tha explosion so even withouth training he got stronger because of that, let's add the 3 years training, i believe his power level is now in the 400-500 million range... maybe closer to 400 million.
Base goku at 10 million and 500 million in ssj after yardrat
Even though we are at God levels now at Super. I always loved how much he grew between the Frieza and Cell sagas.
I always thought that Trunks and Goku were probably fairly even when they first met, with Goku maybe being a bit stronger. Though, I would say that in terms of pure skill, Goku was definitely better simply because he'd been fighting since long before Trunks was even born
This aint a big deal in terms of this video, but it’s always bothered me how, after such a massive jump in power in the saiyan arc, how the Earthlings NEVER train together 😂
Piccolo was nearly as strong as Vegeta and Goku on namek toward the end. Piccolo grew strong enough to take Android 20.
Are we gonna assume that piccolo grew his base power by 100 fold, and the Saiyans gained like 10-20%? 50 times 1/5 if your power level is still a 10x increase in base
Piccolo was weaker than base Vegeta and base Goku on Namek.
You should make a video on how Goku refused Purunga bringing him to Earth. Is it as simple as Purunga asking Goku hey you want to come back to Earth? Did they have some sort of communication. 😅
I’ve always wondered that too especially when they made the wish on namek vegeta would of refused to go to earth but the wish teliported him before he even knew what happened
Can’t get enough of your videos bro!! Keep ‘em coming 🙏🏽
Great video what thoughts dragon ball super returning
I'll believe it when I see it.
This title should be changed to Android Saga and not cell
Y'know as much as Chi Chi's sword gag from Master Roshi's joke of her being why Goku isn't coming back comes out of nowhere because haha... Chi Chi owning a sword to begin with makes sense considering her being the Ox King's daughter. I don't doubt Ox King would have had more than just an axe in an armory, and also it would have been cool if Chi Chi actually knew how to wield a sword. Maybe Gohan would have been a swordsman himself, or used any other number of weapons if Chi Chi thought bare martial arts would be great supplemented by weapons usage.
"He probably could have cut Frieza in half with a pool inflatable noodle" my dude.
Far as I’m concerned 😂…Yamcha got his power boost from trying to make it to the power button to turn it off…when he was messing with the gravity machine on the capsule corp.ship😎😎😎
lmao fr. i was just thinking of that scene...
poor yamcha but u made ur choice to let bulma go. 😟😆
@@ssppeeaarr ikr 😅
If Tienshan didn't always train with chiaotzu and instead trained with Yamcha, Krillin, Piccolo and Base Goku he would be a lot stronger
They all would be a lot stronger if they used grav-training and weighted clothing.
The saiyans wearing armour in the RoSaT also would've negated their zenkai boosts too.
It's like they were all purposely trying to hinder their training, rather than amplifty it.
@@EndoScorpion and the hyperbolic time chamber
@@EndoScorpion exactly what I thought as well ( they literally did everything that hindered their training except not training) honestly the androids could have been a much scarier threat if the humans had used all the opportunities available and were still defeated by 19 and dr gero/20 because we'd know that the human z fighters literally did everything they could to prepare for the androids but no we got this: human z fighters; let's go our separate ways and train alone rather than training together and sparing with each other using a gravity chamber.
Great vid on yet another topic I hadn't seen delved into!
what I don't get is, when Goku is healed after his battle with vegeta in the saiyan saga, why do people still say his power level as being 8k? he should have zenkai'd from that healing, right?
like there's no way it's as much as 10x, it's probably more like 3x
I'm commenting this before the video starts but I always assumed Goku got a Zenkai boost from recovering from the Heart Virus as well. I feel like someone might have covered this already.
I kinda have the same Idea tbh because got beat up by 19 plus the virus I think he can take on android 16 after being healed then again piccolo took on gero after absorbing vegetas energy and some of piccolos energy who ate a senzo bean himself who goku sparred with so I believe a healthy full power goku would take on 16 the fight we never saw which is a shame itself
I think Goku knew about basically everything on Namek after he read Krillins mind if I’m correct. So i think he was more angry about him losing his friend again not that he couldn’t be brought back.
When Goku fought Frieza, he had a power level of 3 million. When he originally transformed it was likely 2-2.5 million from being in a weakened state and slowly crept back up as he continued to fight Frieza.
When Trunks arrives, Goku likely has a base power level of approximately 3.5-4.5 million to Trunks’ 3-3.5 million
When the Androids arrive, Goku & Vegeta have base power levels of approximately 6-8 million, which might not seem like much but is basically double (or triple-quadruple in Vegeta’s case) what they accumulated throughout the series to that point. The others all likely doubled or tripled their powers as well, with the exception of Piccolo, who benefited greatly from training with SSJ Goku and likely even put himself above Frieza.
This makes perfect sense to me because in creating Android 19, Gero likely expected Goku to have a base power of 6-15 million and the ability to perform a 15-20x Kaioken, which is why he is so surprised but not completely intimidated by the Super Saiyan form, because he actually expected Goku to be as strong as he was in base form.
When fighting Cell, Goku likely has a base power level of approximately 27 million and Gohan is upwards of 30 million, which would put their ascended SSJ forms (x75 multiplier) in the 2 billion to 2.4 billion range. Not even a year of actually training against another Super Saiyan allowed them to surpass both Vegeta & Trunks quite easily.
This also makes sense to me because in creating Androids 16, 17 & 18, Gero was likely prepared for Goku to have a base power of 20-25 Million and the ability to perform a 20-30x Kaioken. He needed Androids that could defeat a Goku fighting at power levels of 400-750 million for brief periods of time. He could have no way of knowing that Goku could discover forms that would give him 50-75x multipliers.
This is what I believe. Him and Gohan mastering super saiyan raised their base power but kept the same multiplier. This follows the narrative. Goku says he’s stronger than Vegeta. Goku says Gohan is stronger than him. The numbers fall in line with that. My numbers a little lower than yours cause I assume Mech Frieza wasn’t stronger than Namek Goku like he said. Frieza can’t sense power levels so how the fukk would he know how strong Goku was? He wouldn’t. I had him at 135M. A lot stronger than Namek Frieza but still behind Namek Goku. That way when Trunks showed up around 2.8M, he was able to clap Frieza and Cold.
I don’t believe in domination multipliers. Being 5 million lower in battle power getting ya clapped.
But yeah good post fam. I don’t see how Goku doubles up his 3M before he gets back to Earth. 4M or 4.5M sounds about right.
Those numbers are ok but for me they would just have any reasonable if the namek power levels were freeza full form 12 millions and goku 15 millions. Goku going from 90.000 to 3.000.000 is too much and i don’t think that he got some power up below that type of power up in hyperbolic time chamber.
Also, i don’t agree with the x75 multiplier for grade 4 ssj. That would mean ssj2 is only a little stronger than mastered super saiyan.. unless ssj2 is double than mastered super saiyan that would be x150 power base
Yeah grade 4=mastered super saiyan is always stated to be the same x50 as grade 1 minus the stamina burn. That’s why I had to head canon the concept of mastering super saiyan lol they were obviously stronger for it.
Grade 4 should be a base multiplier. Subtle but effective. 1.5x base get us in the ball park of super saiyan Goku and Gohan being above Ultra Trunks who would be significantly weaker in base. Gohan being around 25M puts his ss2 at 2.8B full power. SPC being 1.3B and everybody else scales to fit.
I also said the same thing about the numbers like bruh, if Goku was at 30 on Namek, going super saiyan and getting to 1500 woulda still been epic lol
@@maniacslap1623
That works too.
SSJ was a x 50 multiplier that slightly decreased stamina
SSJ Grade 2 was a stamina draining x 75 multiplier that slightly decreased speed
SSJ Grade 3 was a x 100 multiplier that greatly decreased speed & stamina
SSJ Grade 4 was a 50x multiplier that didn’t drain stamina. Training with one another and remaining in SSJ dramatically increased Goku & Gohan’s base power to the point they did not need a x 75 multiplier like Vegeta & Trunks in order to keep up with Cell.
Grade 4 is the same multiplier. It just doesn't strain or drain ki as much
The fact that Dr. Gero thought he could surpass SSJ Vegeta by absorbing the energy of characters like Krillin or Tien has always intrigued me.
I believe that Toriyama, at the beginning of this saga, wanted to do a sort of reboot regarding the power levels of the characters to try to equalize them a bit, but ultimately, he didn't achieve it.
The first character that logically may have broken a billion, would be either Semi Perfect Cell, or Trunks and Vegeta after they left the RoSaT.
Here's a discussion. How much of a Zenkai boost did Goku get when he recovered in the hospital before he left for Namek?
@@deckzone3000 Right?
I've always assumed that he first gained then actually LOST strength right before Androids 19 & 20 showed up as he started being symptomatic for the Heart Virus.
I can clearly see in the manga in the Video when I pause here. Goku saying "I just won't let you.. you're not gonna get away with this" when Goku saw Frieza killing his best friend Krillin by exploding him from the inside in the air. I know in the original Z dub Goku says "I won't let you get away with this" and in the Dragon Ball Kai dub I guess because the Kai dub producers wanted to make it more dramatic they make Goku say "you ruthless heartless bastard! I will make you suffer! I prefer Sean Schemmel's Performance in the Kai dub."
Thank you! I enjoyed the reasoning behind this! I know you personally don't like super but, the feats seen near the beginning of the show or even later on would hint that Gokus base isn't that much higher than the freeza arc. Idk what you think Gokus base is at the end of z. But I never believed it to be a crazy amount stronger than his original 3 million.
Me personally i in the cell saga i would put Tienshan at 3 million, Krillin and Yamcha at 1 to million for powr level at least
@@deckzone3000 said by no one ever
I think it makes sense that 17 and 18 are one the same level or slightly stronger than Frieza.
But in that case, why did Trunks have so much trouble with the Andriods? Well, I think it's acceptable to believe that 17 and 18 are always at "100%." They don't need to charge or rev up since they're perpetual energy models. However, Trucks got the jump on Frieza and King Cold. If he had let Frieza charge up, he probably would have still won, but it may have been a much longer, more drawn out battle.
If you take the Z Fighter's feats as reference, i think that also tracks. I totally believe that Piccolo after fusing with Kami would have beat Frieza, but against 17, they were about equal.
I'd argue that the humans always got more out of training than Goku did, all the humans were stronger than raditz besides Chiaotzu in the Saiyan Saga so it might be a bad argument. Both the cell and Frieza Saga imply that Goku had gained self-mastery, meaning there was no master above him that he could learn from. This is probably true for the Z Fighters as well. This is of course retconned in super but not really, even the manga implies that ultra instinct is just stuff Goku's already learned.
The room of Spirit and Time gravity levels are lower then the gravity chamber. The room of Spirit and Time is just an asspull. Technically these characters had around 5 years of training as Goku didn't return for around 2 years.
Chi Chi definitely has the strongest back in DB
At the very least Goku is 2x stronger than on Namek, basically Goku should be around 6-7 million in base, Trunks being around 6-7 million if we assume he caught up with Goku, with Piccolo being somewhere around 180-240 million if Dr. Gero and Android 19 should be somewhere around Goku's level on Namek, somewhere between 160-230 million seeing as Piccolo alone could fight against Dr.Gero/Android 20 and actually pressure him, Vegeta in base being around 7.5-8 million since they say he's stronger than Goku, Gohan should be around 6 million if we're to believe he's close enough to Goku in power he could go back and forth a bit, Tien is around 6 million, Krillin 3-5 million, and Yamcha around 3-5 million (I do believe Tien might be stronger, he had a partner to train with and his power growth in underrated..) Chiaotsu probably around 1-2 million, so overall everyone is fairly relative aside from Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo..but then the power jump from them to 16, 17, 18, and Cell is insane..18 should be at around 700-800 million, 17 is around 800-900 million, Kamiccolo should be around 1-1.2 billion with 16 being about 1.5 billion and Cell being 1.4 billion, I got these numbers through multipliers and how they compare against Vegeta, Goku, and Trunks in Super Saiyan, 50 times Goku and Trunks should be at 300-350 million with Vegeta being at 375-400 million which if we take Trunks' example, he could fight one of the androids from the future and they're weaker than the ones in the present, so the math adds up that they are around that level in this timeline, I could get into the levels for after Imperfect Cell, but the levels are ridiculous..the multiplier for Neo Tri Beam is over a thousand times, if we say Semi-Perfect Cell is even 3-4x stronger that makes sense since it damaged him..making Tien's strongest move's multiplier at this point 6 billion..so I can see why they stopped trying to record power levels at this point...
I have a hart time believing that the SS1 transformation is a 50x multiplier or at least not consistantly (we are talking about Toriyama after all). Goku was very heavily battle damaged and worn out when he first transformed and Toriyama wanted a final epic fight. I personally believe that the SS1 transformation is more then a 50 times multiplier but that is just me.
You know Mike I never actually read the Book Journey to the west. I have watched the film adaptation Journey to the West Conquering the Demons and watched a few episodes of the anime series Saiyuki and Saiyuki Reload online and I might get back to the rest of the Saiyuki Episodes and Saiyuki Reload episodes online in the Future.
i think when goku was training gohan and piccolo, he went super saiyan. but when he was training himself, he fought gohan and piccolo at base
Senzu Beans… The ultimate performance enhancing drug…
i am proud to be the reason he fixes things in his videos. as im always pointing things out that he missed/got wrong. and i have to say for this video? you got everything. i have nothing to complain about. subscribed and liked.
Goku was not more powerful than Trunks when they sparred. They were the same strength. He was just far more skilled due to way more training and experience.
Naw Goku shoulda been slightly more powerful. Because he had a lot more combat experience, got completely wrecked in the saiyan saga, 100g training, the Ginyu beat down AND the Frieza fight. Unless Trunks is getting clapped by the androids to near death every day, he shouldn’t be as strong as Goku.
I always thought of Trunks as the ssj Vegeta of Namek Saga that we never got to see. Slightly weaker than Goku at the time but with ssj. I always start low with Trunks.
Him being as strong as he is at his age just foreshadows our own Gohan’s leap in power.
A teenager with even close to Namek Goku’s power AND ssj is still impressive.
Future Gohan right before he’s killed says he wanted to be as powerful as Goku when he got back from Yardrat and that Trunks was close to surpassing his own power at the time. Roughly a few years before Trunks goes back in time.
That Gohan was significantly weaker than our Gohan because he wouldn’t have trained after Namek NOT knowing about the androids.
I’d argue Goku if he didn’t have the heart virus thing he would have been super vegeta level at the start of the android arc at the 19 fight most likely. Since he stopped trunks sword with his finger makes sense.
I have it like this
Goku(Vs Freeza)=3.000.000
Goku(Kaioken x10)=30.000.000
Goku(Kaioken x20)=60.000.000
Goku(Super Saiyajin)=150.000.000
Goku(Post Yardrat)=4.000.000
Goku(Super Saiyajin)=200.000.000
Goku(3 Years later)=6.000.000
Goku(SS,Sick)=150.000.000-300.000.000
Goku(SS,Not Sick)=300.000.000
I think the official power levels are inconsistent. Here are the figures I came up with for Goku...
FRIEZA SAGA
Goku, Suppressed: 3.6 million
Goku, Base: 4 million
Fights at this level against Frieza for the most part.
Goku, Base: 4.8 million
Power increases after recovering. Comes back from near-death after Frieza connects with the Nova Strike.
Super Saiyan Goku: 240 million
Goku's power as a Super Saiyan Goku fluctuates heavily throughout the fight. This is the final power level I have him at.
One year later....
TRUNKS SAGA
Goku: 6 million
Super Saiyan Goku: 300,000,000
Three years later...
ANDROID SAGA
Goku: 18 million
Super Saiyan Goku: 900 million
This is if he's healthy, of course.
I thought Prince Vegeta train in 500x gravity
Power Level..Lets See(Daizenshuu States That if you take no damage from the attack then you are at least twice as stronger as you opponent or the Ki Blast attack your Oppenent is outputting.
Based On Power Scaling
1: The Andriod 18 and 17 future or Current I bare minimum twice as Strong Namek SS1 Goku. Over 300 Million.
2:Imperfect Cell absorbing so Many Humans Tanked Piccolo Ki attack without Damage That Even 17 Ducked for cover..Over 600 Million.
Suppressed Semi Perfect Cell Tanked Andriod 16 Punch without Damage: Over 1 Billion and 200 Million
Super Vegeta Between 1.3 and 1.5 Billion. Semi Perfect Cell at Full Power was Able To Damage and Slightly Make Vegeta Bleed..But Damage Was Minimumal.
Suppressed Perfect Cell: Betwen 2.6 and 3 Billion. Tanked Vegeta Kick with Do Damage.
50% SS Full Power Goku: (Guide Book States Its Ten times a stronger the unmaster SS1 Form): Stronger Then Super Vegeta by Huge Margin and Korrin Had to put Thought if 50% Goku Could Win oe not against Supprssed Perfect Cell: Bare Minimum/Lowball: Over 2 Billion
100% SS Full Power Goku: Over 4 Billion
Full Power Perfect Cell: 6 Billion
Suprssed Rage Boosted SS2 Gohan Tanking Perfect Cell Punch Without Damage: Over 12 Billion
Mentally Nerfed SS2 Gohan with Broken Arm: Held his Own against Super Perfect Cell.. Was 50% Due to Be mentally defeated: 10 Billon
Super Perfect Cell: Over 12 Billion
Enraged SS2 Gohan at Full Power Finish Cell: Over 24 Billion.
In the original translation Goku after 7 years of Training Rival or Surpass Rage boosted SS2 Gohan in Cell Games.
Buu Saga
Base Goku: 25 Million
SS grade 4: 12.5 Billion
SS2 Goku: 25 Billion
SS3 Goku: 100 Billion.
So Base Buu Saga Goku is over 8 Times Stronger then Namek Base Goku. While Buu Saga SS Grade 4 Goku is over 83 Times More powerful then Namek SS Goku.
Good calculations, incidentally I also have base goku around 25 million during the buu saga and about 30 million when first meeting beerus ( I have a theory that you need a particular power level for each ssj form with initial ssj/ ssj1 needing a base of 3-4 million minimum, ssj2 = a base of 6-8 million, ssj3 = a base of 24-32 million : all of which are lowballed estimates
King Cold drinking that Copium.
You should cover what if Bulma made the z fighters all gravity chambers to train in or what if Krillin Tien and Yamcha trained together rather than separately. or both and they trained together in a gravity chamber. and what if piccolo used his 2nd year in the Time chamber to train up Tien as it tri beam is insane and Tien then split his last year to train year to train up krillin and then yamcha and after they would use their remaining time to train together. so all the z fighters used 2 years in the time chamber imagine the different they could make in the anime when blasting super perfect cell during the beam struggle.
20:00 I think besides maybe Piccolo none of them Z-fighter was even close to Frieza's 1. form and forget his true Form. I don't even believe than any of them could have beat Frieza during Boo Saga.
When Trunks tested Goku:
Goku: 210 million
Trunks: 180 million
He probably got stronger, but not very much. And yeah, I think King Cold has to be weaker. Freeza implies it himself, that he will prove that he's the strongest in the universe, which only makes sense if he's stronger than Cold. In the anime it's said that Cold is stronger, but Freeza probably wasn't using his full power yet (since he needs some time to power up), and that would also explain why he went down so easily.
And weirdly enough, I don't think he got that much stronger in the three years of training either. Like, after Trunks came back, was there anything that actually implied that Goku and Vegeta were that much stronger than him? If they were still relative, then Goku didn't get that much stronger.
Which is kinda silly, because three years is a lot of time, and in that same amount of time, Piccolo went from a power level of like, 1 million, to SSJ levels. So, he became over 150 times stronger between fusing with Nail and 19 and 20 showing up, and that was after, in a short amount of time, going from Raditz level to getting strong enough to impress Nail, who was like, Ginyu Force level.
Piccolo's potential is insane. Imagine if he actually learned the Kaioken. And trained with Whis in Super. With Kaioken x20 Ultimate Orange God Ultra Instinct Piccolo, on top of an SSJ-tier base form, there would have been no plot.
Piccolo was the spawn of a super elite namekian. Being trained for a year by king Kai must have boosted him from a few thousand to a few hundred thousand. Nail was definitely super high tier among his species and he couldn't have been more than a couple hundred thousand at best.
Two Namekian fusing more than doubles their capacity.
It honestly makes sense why the dragon balls were able to unlock his potential and plus more.
Piccolo has been training after Goku got god forms and still hit a power barrier where the saiyans, androids and even maijins break easily. Piccolo couldn't get as strong as the others because his body peaked, and only could stronger if he did the u6 approach and fused with more nameks. It's a shame it took shenron to unlock all that untapped power he couldn't reach on his own.
I'm happy piccolo was able to have his potential unlocked(I dub it ultimate piccolo) but orange piccolo is a bit much though but cool
@@deckzone3000 Yeah, it may not be all that precise in the details. Can't tell exactly how strong he was against Freeza, or when how much of the gainz happened (though we do know that he still wasn't strong enough to fight Freeza when he came to Earth). Point is, he got stronger by an absurd amount.
@@deckzone3000 Duh, you think im stupid?
He's talking about piccolos growth and potential in Z and I talked about how he capped in super and needed his power awakened. I don't see why you don't see the correlation in our comments
@@deckzone3000 Not the point, and incorrect.
Z Piccolo and DBS Piccolo are the same person. You're making it sound like I'm Talking about GT piccolo who is an entirely different character.
My point is piccolo trained from the android saga(after he gets surpassed by super Vegeta), the buu saga, and in super he was capped until he wished for his potential to be unleashed
In my mind, When I watched the show as a kid, Goku barely got stronger at all between beating Frieza and the arrival of the androids (instant transmission being the main improvement), because I imagined Super Saiyan as a limit (and it's presented as such at the beginning of the Cell saga). In my mind, the reason Goku struggled with Frieza on Namek was naturally because Frieza was the final boss of the Namek arc (ie: narration wise, a satisfying battle was required), the fact Goku let Frieza power up to 100%, and also the fact that Goku was pretty worn out by the time he managed to turn Super Saiyan. That'd explain why Trunks or Goku could easily defeat Frieza and Cold on earth, when they're at 100%, have people to protect, and are not interested in giving them a chance this time around.
I don’t feel like he struggled. He just didn’t wanna kill him. The gap in power had went so far into his favor that Frieza wasn’t a challenge anymore. Is the way I saw it. I agree with u saying ain’t no way in hell Goku got that much stronger on Yardrat. He healed. He learned to transform at will. He learned instant transmission. Not too much time to actually train. No Namek like battles giving him extra boosts. 4-4.5M sounds about right.
@@maniacslap1623 When I said struggled, I meant the fight took forever. Again, I believe that since Frieza was the boss of the Namek saga, this was a plot necessity. Had Goku insta-killed Frieza like Trunks did, it would have been a very anticlimactic end to the saga. So this does not mean that Goku is weaker than Trunks, just that the plot demanded the fight to drag out.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in battle of Gods doesn't it say goku in base isn't stronger then 100% Frieza
@@deckzone3000 the hell you talking about non cannon
@@deckzone3000 did you get hit in the head?
Goku in base form could kill perfect cell at that point...
Goku definitely had a PL over 8k when he started his trip to Namek. Vegeta got a massive Zenkai from the fight, why would goku be the same, when with even your own relative Zenkai theory, which i love, means Goku faced a being with a PL of ~180k
I've heard that Vegeta in base by the end of the Cell Games was as strong as SSJ Goku on Namek. So Goku must have been even stronger than that.
No base saiyans were still below frieza until battle of gods
@Antoniodagreat nope, Base vegeta, trunks, gohan and goku were all at least 5x namek ssj goku, at the cell games, I have trunks in base at 875 million, vegeta at 900 million, Goku at 1.7 Billion and Gohan at 2.1 Billion
The power levels you came up with are all head canon
the other thing is though, it's stated in universe that Gero's spy drone that was watching Goku witnessed and collected data from his fight with Frieza, are we to believe in the main timeline that the drone was not there to witness Trunk go super saiyan and kill him with ease? was Gero not able to collect data from the drone/s in that 3 years?
Yeah, the thing Frieza wasn't taking into account was the fact that Goku was injured during their fight on Namek. Goku wasn't even close to his full power during their battle.
Doesn’t matter, since frieza was at 100% and used his strongest attack that trunks stopped with nearly 0 difficulty while not even trying
Mike, I just realized that the androids were surprised Goku could become super saiyan, however both trunks and goku went super saiyan after frieza amd king cold arrived on Earth. Dr. Gero obtained Friezas DNA to create Cell so they should have had knowledge of the SSJ transformation right?
Great video. Your videos lately LSM have been fire!
We see more range of power in SSJ1 than the other transformations. By the time Toriyama got to SSJ2, he seemed to have kind of abandoned the concept of unlocking different "grades" or gaining mastery over a transformation (at least, we never hear the characters explicitly state anything about mastering SSJ2, there is some dialogue that may suggest it). By Buu saga, if a saiyan needed more power they'd just gain a totally new transformation or y'know, fuse. But the thing that always kind of seems strange is that going from SSJ1 to SSJ2 simply doubles the power (SSJ is widely considered a 50x multiplier, SSJ2 is 100x), but it seems like the feats accomplished by SSJ and its different sub-grades require the power to have been multiplied by many-fold before SSJ2 was ever introduced. 100% power Frieza on Namek was able to hold his own a bit against SSJ Goku. The battle was more back-and-forth in the anime, but Frieza seemed comparable in power to a "newbie" Super Saiyan. Then when Trunks is introduced, SSJ can now merc two characters stronger than that with minimal effort. If Goku was equal or a bit above Trunks, that suggests his power had at least doubled when he arrived back on Earth, from fighting somewhat evenly with 100% Frieza to defeating someone of that power level with ease.
I also remember in the Funi dub when Vegeta and Trunks emerge from the Spirit and Time chamber Vegeta states he can beat Cell by himself, Goku says something to the effect of _"Your power would've had to at least tripled to do that"_ I don't recall what the line was in the original manga (it was probably something completely different and the Funi statement thrown in there to be dramatic), but it was weird hearing a line suggesting that going from SSJ to SSJ Grade 2 triples the power of a Super Saiyan while it's stated SSJ to SSJ2 just doubles it. But at the same time, it made sense because Cell was already much, much stronger than the Androids, who were way stronger than the Super Saiyans. Someone only twice as strong as SSJ Goku on Namek couldn't possibly win against Semi-Perfect Cell let alone Perfect. I can only assume that SSJ2 actually doubles the power of a SSJ Grade 4/Full Power Super Saiyan and that a Full Power SSJ's power has already been multiplied several times from that of a newbie Super Saiyan, but we never find out exactly how much the power increase is from SSJ > SSJ Grades 2 and 3 > SSJ Grade 4 which really would help get a grasp on the amount of power Goku gained.
That's why I never take the grades seriously. It was just introduced for the Cell saga and nothing more.
The ssj form used by Vegeta and trunks allowed you to pretty much pump your power level as high as your wanted while also immobilizing you.
Ssj was known to be massive power drain as it essentially leaked out uncontrollably. Mastered SSJ just prevents this energy drain and allows you maintain and use that power instead.
Well, there was some time gap between each transformation.
@@deckzone3000 SSJ is widely accepted to be 50x base multiplier while SSJ2 is 100x base. The math says that's twice as strong. 2 x 50 = 100. Mastered state doesn't drain energy, which is a huge advantage for stamina, but doesn't really explain the massive strength increase. If the multiplier remains the same, it would mean the base gets stronger to increase the effectiveness of the 50x multiplier. Though if making the base stronger is the key, why do they specifically train to make the SSJ transformations stronger? I suppose now I'm just overthinking it.
@@deckzone3000 It's true that all the SSJ multipliers are speculative, which is why I call them "widely accepted" not necessarily canon. In the absence of concrete statements in the original story, guide book material is the closest thing fans have to go on. I wouldn't say citing guide book material is lazy/dumb. It's supplemental material, so certainly nothing in them is irrefutable and should be taken with a grain of salt, but it does provide some a kind consensus for a topic the manga itself gives almost no detail on.
Plot twist just because we didn't see the whole training the humans did. What if the humans excluding Chaozu and Yajirobe were training under a higher gravity. There is always the possibility of them using a higher gravity as well as Gohan and Piccoro Jr. and not just sparing with Kakarrot. Now don't attack me in the comments because I know nothing is proven it's just a theory. Also I know the movies are on a separate timeline, however if some of them were cannon then movies 4 & 5 could easily fit into the timeline as well as 8 later. So there was a potential here for getting a power boost.
Mike do think SSJ grade 4 Son Goku or Gohan could have beat Perfect Cell taking energy from Super Vegeta, Ultra Trunks, Kamiccolo, Tienshan, Krillin, and Yamcha they would win? Like how Broly was defeated
If they could have done so I'm guessing they would have. It's something they did before when Piccolo borrowed Gohan and Krillin's power to attack Frieza. However, I've been planning to do a video on that technique for a while now. So, I'm sure I'll talk about it more in-depth at some point.
@@LSMMIKE glad to hear to it
@@LSMMIKEwhat if goku realized the weakness of the super sayian in the three year timeskip instead of doing it in the time chamber
Both Lord Frieza & Perfect Cell where turned into jobbers after Thier sages and were made examples out of by Future Trunks and Pikkion
Mike reads manga lines the same way my pastor reads Bible verses in a sermon. Preach, brother 🙌!
Make the video: Why Goku did not took his medicine given by Trunks?
Wish they would have made an episode or 2 of him training
SS1 Goku = Mecha Frieza
Mecha Frieza < SS1 Trunks
SS1 Trunks = SS1 Goku (Yadrat) = SS1 Goku (Sick)
SS1 Goku (Sick) < SS1 Vegeta
SS1 Vegeta = Android 18
Android 18 =< Android 17
Android 17 = Piccolo
Piccolo < Imperfect Cell
Imperfect Cell = Android 16
Android 16 < Semi Perfect Cell
Semi Perfect Cell < Super Vegeta
Super Vegeta < SS1 Goku (50%)
SS1 Goku (50%) < SS1 Goku (100%)
SS1 Goku (100%)
Laughingstock can you do a video of.Who would win piccolo or android 19?
Post 3 years;
SsVegeta-340 million
Ss Goku- 320 million
Ss trunks- 250 million
Piccolo- 85 to 150 million
Gohan- maybe 4 million
Tiens- 3.5 million (tri beam many hundreds times stronger)
Krillin- 3.2 million
Yamcha- maybe 2 million
I do agree Goku was stronger after Namek and the 3 years training for the Androids but I don't think by leaps and bonds the two biggest improvements were obviously Vegeta who became a Super Sayisn and was probably stronger than Goku on Namek whereas Piccolo was probably on par with Goku on Namek if not out right stronger. I do think Freiza got stronger as one of the Freiza Force bases was monitoring the battle which we see and it even measures both Freiza and Goku's power levels so chances are Freiza is roughly as strong as Goku was on Namek if not maybe a little stronger to make sure he would win. But also given who what Cell is maybe up of Dr. Gero knew who Freiza and King Cold were as Cell clearly knows some of Freiza's techniques and even has some of Freiza's personality.
I was always confused if ther was a Kaio-Ken x2 because in the games there is but like Kaio-Ken is already double the power of a base from what does x2 mean then
He should do a video explaining this because I sounded dumb debating with my brother
@@NOTTHEMUTANTMOB yeah is never said in the manga or show, but in ragging blast, maybe BT, and Budokai he has Kaio-Ken then Kaio-Ken x2, x3 and X4
My headcanon is that Kaioken is a standalone power boost (maybe 2x base?) and 2x is just 2 times that boost. Not 2 times the base alone
Maybe it’s a 1.5 boost
If SSJ grade 4 Son Goku was able to use the Kaio-Ken as well could he beat beat Perfect Cell or if Goku use the spirit bombs or absorb it
no cause cell would too
@@boltskyline2957 yeah but, like he didn't use it against ssj2 Gohan but we don't know if cell would risk that even though hecan heal
I read that and thought you said "If SSJ4 Goku used the kaioken, he could beat Perfect Cell" and I was so confused lol
@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD I don't think Cell is able to use the kaio-ken, he would've if he could but either Cells weren't gathered during a time when Goku was using it or Cell in a semi-SSJ state using it would've been too risky. Given he has the power of 2 Saiyan's I think that's likely, or Toriyama just forgot about it lol. Probably
@@Valientlink I think he said to piccolo he can use the Kaio-Ken and spirit bomb
How long was trunks a super sayian before he went back in time?
Personally, if the statement in bog is accurate. Goku in base would be weaker than Final Form Frieza. So anywhere between 90-110 mill. High ball estimate.
Now, Goku trains for a year or so on Yardrat. Goes maybe from 3 million to 6 million. After three years training with a weaker piccolo and Gohan, he would have gained a bigger boost but not that much. Prob went to 12-14 million base. About double to what he had after returning from yardrat. Which was difficult training there. And training with Gohan in hyperbolic time chamber would he substantial. Probably would be around 24-32 million. So double or more. Add in a stronger super Saiyan form. Would make sense and this could fit in line with BoG statement from Beerus.
@@deckzone3000I just meant it would fit in line with toriyama did.
I feel like the human characters are approaching Final form frieza levels by the end of their 3 years training, but that's about it. (keep in mind these goofballs rapidly surpass whoever the last major villain was at great speed, going from below Young adult Goku to surpassing Raditz in a year) but yeah, I don't think Goku at this point was like several times stronger than the previous saga just yet.
Hey Mike, what do you think about the power levels in the databooks? Goku jumps from 80 thousand to 3 million it's too difficult for my suspension of disbelief to accept.
You mean 90,000
In my opinion, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and piccolo getting like 50 times stronger during the three years isn't too unreasonable. The humans are more questionable though.
Post Namek pre RoSaT Goku was so fkn hot
So i would love to see a video honestly power scaling the humans. I would say at the beginning of the android saga Piccolo could take freeza on Namek. Based on that filler fight in the anime which i say still counts yamcha and Tien were easily in the hundreds of thousands so its not unreasonable to think Krillin and them cleared 1 million by the time the androids showed up. Now by Buu could Tien or Krillin hang with Freiza? Sadly i dont think so, but they would have had a better showing than they did in the Freiza saga
Who's lore on the saiyans is more accurate? Vegetas? Namekian book of legends? or Zunos?
Can you do a video on if Vegeta could beat Frieza and King Cold after Namek but before he turns SSJ?
He could not
10:41 I disagree that the statement contradicts king cold being possibly stronger or at least as strong. Gohan has no clue was king cold is capable of, no clue what techniques, no idea how much his power could potentially rise.
Goku did beat him of course and I think that’s more so shows king cold may have been weaker more than that statement. However I do think after gohan said that, one of them should have mentioned the fact king cold looked like friezas 2nd form, I kinda dislike that they didn’t given what they know about frieza but don’t know about king cold. Even vegeta didn’t know about king cold
I can't wait for part 2 as I'm surprised u scaled Soo low
For my scaling
Htc trained SSJ in 10s-100s millions
As I have perfect cell/gohan in hundreds of millions I've never scaled this high back in the day
You'd be surprised the
Namek saga broke Dragonball scale even more than android saga
Here how I scale Goku
90k to 150mil is 1,666.67 times increase on namek
875mil v androids
160bil vs cell
Meaning from namek to cell
Only 1,066times increase
Don't get me started on gohan
You don't think Goku got that much stronger after leaving the Room of Spirit and Time? How?
(1)When Goku entered, he was weaker than the Vegeta who killed #19 but lost to #18. When he came out, he showed Korin half of his power and it impressed Vegeta to the point that he told Piccolo to hurry up and enter the Room so he could also go back in afterwards. This Vegeta was stronger than Simi-Perfect Cell who absorbed #17(who was stronger than #18.
Meaning Goku got a significant boost in power. In fact, he gained more power in his 1 visit than Vegeta did in his 2 visits to the room.
(2) In the Cell Games, Goku powered up, shocking everyone except Cell and Gohan. This proves that Goku was even stronger than the others anticipated and that Mastered Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Full Power is stronger than when they simply transform.
Crazy cause Goku was the first person to prolly shoot the ones with Frieza lol 😂