I read an interview with the actor who played the Klingon Lawyer. he played it as though he was a warrior but the court room was his battlefield. I always thought the was a very cool take.
So, like a lawyer. There was a comment I saw somewhere about this lawyer who didn't like to be confrontational/argue, but could do well in court because there there's rules and an order to everything.
Makes sense to me. Men can live or die based on what happens in a courtroom, so in a very real way the courtroom is indeed a battlefield. Actor-kun had a point.
"Ugh, I have to clean out the Holodeck's biofilters today." "Oh, _fun._ Nothing better than cleaning jizz out of the jizz collecto-" "O'Brien was on the station, it's the red stuff, not the white." "...I don't actually know which is worse."
The dude is absurdly versed in personal and starship combat with hundreds of encounters .Were it not for his shoulder and it probably being cursed , he would be unstoppable .
One of the things I love about star trek; it gets the little things right. Humans are prone to recurring injuries. Even if we medically remove every trace of an incident, the way we respond to crisis will naturally lead to a similar injury later. O'Brien tends to confront issues with his upper body, but without the core or balance of a martial artist - resulting in constant shoulder injuries.
this trial is so dumb, during combat with a klingon vessel another decloaked right in the middle of it and Worf blew it up before checking if it was a "civilian" vessel like excuse me? it decloaked in the middle of a battle basically right in front of them of course it was gonna get shot at
@@manticore4952 i would argue this situation is fairly different then that because they literally decloaked in front of them during a battle, its not like they announced they were there and retreated then decloaked at a safe distance
@@danielk5780 i forget why they were doing it but i believe that ship was there specifically to get worf to fire on it so he could be taken to the klingon empire for trial
I'm not surprised O'Brien was in that many engagements. It seems like he's the only non commissioned office in Star Fleet so he has to rotate around to cover all the commissioned officers;).
"I would like to have him decaled an expert in the area of starship combat." "Any objection?" "None." Lol, I love the way Sisko replied because he knew good and well O'Brien being an expert in starship combat was simply a fact, even if it would hurt his case, he couldn't deny it.
O'Brien is a character with a lot of hidden history ripe for stories they never developed. They outlined how he was the primary tactical officer on the Rutledge during the Cardassian war. This all seemed to change when in the battle of Setlik III he ended up killing a Cardassian with a phaser set to maximum, earning him the title "Hero of Setlik III". After this he shifted his entire career and became the Chief Petty Office on the Enterprise. 235 engagements, 15 decorations .. and he moved off into being an engineer/petty officer. And despite this he would still willingly step into command should Worf had been disabled. He makes me think of the story where Troi was faced in the holographic test of sending off a comraded to die in order to save the ship, a line that had to be crossed (and that ability to do so gave her the higher rank). And I've always wondered .. how would O'Brien do with such a test. Would he resist like Troi did .. or being extremely smart and knowing it's not real, simply send the holograph off to die (yet be filled with self doubts over doing so).
His 22 years serving in Starfleet would tell him that when serving on a starship in a crisis situation, the ship must be protected at all costs. Every officer and enlisted, like O'Brien, would give their lives in order to save the ship. Therefore, he would not hesitate to send someone to their death if it meant saving the ship and the lives onboard.
In the episode Disaster, isn't Obrien trapped on the bridge with Troi and Ro and each of them has their own view of how to save the ship? Ro wants to sacrifice people, Troi doesn't and Obrien is trying to engineer a way out if the problem.
the Jem hadar mention that O'Brien would be the first one they would need to take down because of his experience etc (hes the biggest threat in combat).
Quiet duty station after a lot of years of service. It's like an old navy Captain, after having spent many years on the high seas, choosing the post as a port-admiral for the last 10 years before his retirement to be closer to his grandchildren.
Makes sense to an extent he prob wanted a easy posting after a career of combat but then decided that he likes to fix stuff and sitting in a transporter room where nothing really breaks was a bit boring hence the move to an engineer role on DS9
Chief O’brien history prior to Encounter at farpoint is rather spotty , incomplete, and on occasion contradictory. I have retconned my own head canon based on my knowledge as the son of a Navy Enlisted man who Qualified for Chief but chose retirement at 20 years instead of a commitment to serve longer to get the formal promotion and comparable assignment ….. Obrien was weapons officer /security chief of a pre Galaxy vessel during the Cardassian war. During a confused ground engagement He accidentally killed an enemy combatant after quickly firing a phaser thrown to him by a civilian that was not set to the stun setting and required under the current rules of engagement order by a superior officer. While not formally reprimanded the incident left him with PTSD and he resigned his commission and served as an engineering consultant during the commissioning and fitting out of the Enterprise D. This assignment was advantageous to Mile Obrien (title uncertain) because it also have him access to PTSD therapy at the hands of Dr Deana Troi who was at that time feeling out the newly created position of Ship’s Counsellor. Obrien’s Diligence got him the attention of Plankowner Captain Picard who himself understood what The man was going through and wanted to salvage his career in Starfleet. The bargain they struck had O Brien having personal domain of the transporters systems on the ship, agreeing to provide relief and support services to security, engineering, Tactical and Conn as he trained up fresh officers . Obrien got on well with acting first officer and head of Ops Lt commander Data, newly assigned Security chief Yar, fresh faced Bridge officer Worf, as well as The team of UP engineering officers and civilians who ran Engineering by committee, but he remain aloof to all of them…… he was still a Rutledge man even if he had cut ties with his old crowd. In the end Obrien agreed to stay on, resurrecting an archaic title from planetary Naval Days, Chief of the Boat.
Considering the Enterprise-D was poking it's nacelles in every space anomaly on a given week I'd assume the USS Rutledge was doing the same but with more shooting and less talky science. Like a typical episode of TNG but the captain listens to Worf and just shoots the space-chaos-thingo.
Because he didn't want it, presumably. O'Brien was perfectly content as an NCO. It meant that he could focus on the work that he enjoyed, letting others do the big stuff, make the big decisions, give the orders. It says everything about the man that he worked Nog hard, taught him well, but when Nog finally graduated and got that pip, O'Brien smiled as he called Nog "sir." Of course, if the Valiant cadets had rescued him then tried to pull their made-up ranks, he would've given them a dressing down that they'd still be wincing at fifty years later. It's often missed in the Valiant episode that Nog, as the ranking officer (and only officer) should have taken command. Those deaths were his responsibility too. Nobody blamed Nog, of course, anymore than Riker was blamed for his own mistake. Newly minted ensigns are too young and inexperienced to do these things.
Miles O'Brien is not Officer material... I do not mean in terms of competency, he doesn't have that character... I was in the Navy... it's a thing. Julien Bashir is an awesome doctor... he is not command material. I don't care that he is five times smarter than Sisko... he doesn't have that character. He is also too independent and too arrogant to make it in the enlisted ranks.
O'Brien is a hostile witness. An expert can opine about ultimate facts. Hypothetical matters are appropriate, in particular when testing the consistency of the witness.
@@aguilayserpiente That depends entirely on the military doesn't it? In Star Trek it appears that the Admiral running the court martial has 100% authority over the procedure, even since the days of TOS.
nor do the courts, at least not in a military setup like this one, so really, his entire line of questioning would have been stopped or thrown out anyways.
He really should have objected to the question as being irrational since his response of whether he would have fired or not would undeniably be tinted by the later information he acquired .
Technically he does say that at the end. His decision to not fire is only because he has hindsight, where if he were in command at the time with no knowledge of the outcome he probably would have, heck, Sisko probably would have.
Hypotheticals are often allowed when asking for the opinion of an expert about the rationality of a course of action of a similarly situated person, such as a defendant who is also an expert on the same subject. Though, it must also not require the expert to engage in conjecture about unknown factors; the hypothetical must be grounded in agreed upon facts of the case, not “what ifs” that the defendant didn’t face in the first place. In this case it would be a perfectly valid question to ask what he would’ve done in Worf’s position. It wouldn’t be speculation as he’s not being asked to guess about whether or not a certain statement of fact is true, just what his opinion about the facts at hand would be if applied to him.
Whats funny is the Sully movie made up a scene where the FTSB was trying to suggest that other pilots would not have taken the same action and Hanks as Captain Sullivan rightly points out that all the pilots they put in the same situation as him had hindsight and instructions to pursue another course of action and so would not be able to act as they realistically would in that situation. This clip ends before O'Brian gets to add that his decision to not fire is only because of what he knows after the fact. That perspective changes when you are in that chair in the moment.
As an Armchair Quarterback, all my passes are completions, because from my TV angle of the field, I would have thrown to the other receiver who was open.
Would he have taken command? There wasn't another commissioned bridge officer around? My understanding of SOP is that a NCO wouldn't take command unless there was no one else of a CO rank, unless the Chief had been appointed as XO, but that seems unlikely.
Doesn’t matter what he would have done after the fact bc he’s got hindsight and already got to see the consequences of that decision path play out. He has extra future information at his disposal that Worf didn’t.
I believe we only see Worf, Kira and O'brien on the Defiant bridge during the battle. Given the circumstances, at least for this engagement, I could see Kira being outside the chain of command on the Defiant thereby making O'brien the acting captain if Worf went down.
I worked it out... That's just under 1 a month... interesting career. I wonder what constitutes a combat engagement. Do stand offs count ro do that actually have to fire. Also does it count if he's just the transported chief at the time and simply on board? Or does he have to take an actual role in the fighting? I'm just interested btw not picking holes.
No. Chief of Brian is an enlisted, not an officer. CPO's of the Navy/Coast Guard are the senior enlisted; from Chief, E-7; Senior Chief, E-8; to Master Chief, E-9. Starfleet follows Navy/Coast Guard ranks (officer class) and rates (enlisted men) and therefore, next officer after Worf; would assume command. If Worf was the CO, then the XO. Think Picard = CO; and Riker = XO.
It sounds impressive until you realise that a cook on the USS Enterprise can also claim to be in every combat the ship was involved in but that wouldn’t make him an expert.
O’Brien is a non commissioned officer, would he be next in the chain of command to Captain the Defiant. I know he probably have the experience to take command but would he be next in the chain of command ?
umm big blunder on sisko's part, they want to make O'brain an expert in the area of starship combat, and sisko dosent even raise the clear objection off O'brain is an enginering officer and not a trained tatical officer, Combat is not is area of expertise
This episode was terrible. Prosecutor: "We concede all the defenses points." Defense: "So we win, right?" Judge: "No. Because Worf gets angry sometimes."
Ok maybe an organization that lets a guy have 200+ engagements needs to reevaluate their training protocols. That dude should have been training the next 20 generations of officers for sure
Yeah, DS9 is consistently fantastic, but there's a reason I always skip Star Trek's courtroom episodes. After a single semester of legal studies (yeah, not even pre-law), I just...no.
O'Brian's take is actually both total bullshit and contradictory to his established character. He refused Bashir's direct order and destroyed a very good chance at neutralizing or damaging the Jemhadar threat because it was more expedient to their immediate goal of destroying the few enemies on that planet and escaping. Also, there's no way a civilian cargo/transport ship would get right the fck in the middle of a fight and just decloak 5 meters infront of an enemy and taking the time to verify the target in that situation before firing would be a mentally handicapped move. It's not a city street full of civilians that might run infront of your sights, it's fcking space.
@@drrohanjacob Do you remember Miles explaining Setlik III? Yeah, that was one engagement... how many more do you think would qualify him to be a soldier? And honestly, its rare that you sign an armistice and then a treaty for a "disagreement"; that's the path out of a war.
The Klingon guy had every right to pursue that line of questioning. It was Siskos fault (why do we use people without law degress in such a high-profile case?) to not anticipate that line of questioning and have O'Brien explain that he did not take the Command-test and was not qualified to be in command of a Starship, much less one with the tactical capabilities of the Defiant. The least Sisko could have done is raise an objection and state exactly that when the court was about to declare him an expert in starship combat: 1. What constitutes expertise? 2. Go into how Starfleet trains people to be Starship Commanders. 3. State that O'Brien has not taken the command-test. 4. Conclude that O'Brien is not an expert.
if he was the ranking officer then he should have taken command if he had taken the test or not and as far as training goes, someone with 22 years and 200 combat engagements is more qualified than someone like Troy who did take the exam and barely passed
Yeah this is especially weird since O'Brien is an NCO. Even if he has the expertise, there were commissioned officers on the bridge who would be first in line to take command if Worf were incapacitated. The whole line of questioning is flawed, albeit in a way that's consistent with the writers' struggle to figure out how NCOs actually work in Starfleet.
th-cam.com/video/Ss_J_4F_nIM/w-d-xo.html - I think you'd really like his take on Starfleet's fascination with putting bridge officers in charge of trials. Comedic, of course.
Why do we use people without law degrees in such a high-profile case? Answer because a person with a high-profile law degree isn't readily or immediately available. They are on a Deep Space station outside and beyond the borders of the vast expanse of Federation Space during a time of major interstellar war and unrest. Therefore, they have to utilise the highest ranked and closest experienced and qualified people immediately available, which is nearly always the Captain and next highest rank senior officers. Other examples are the TNG episode "The Measure of Man", where both Picard and Riker are required to be lawyers in a hearing regarding Data's status as a sentient being, and the TNG episode "The Ensigns of Command", where Picard has to act as Lawyer in treaty dispute and negotiation between the Federation and the Sheliak regarding humans inhabiting a Sheliak planet. This was very much how it was in the European navies of the European colonial era of the 1400s-1900s, upon which Star Trek, the Federation and Starfleet are heavily based. The international places of trade, colonial outposts, and navy ships of each major European nation would in most cases be many weeks to months sail away from their home country. So when the situation required it far from home, the ship's Captain and senior officers would be expected and required to act as a Judge, Priest, Lawyer, Ambassador, etc. (Just as how most of Starfleet's star-bases, outposts and ships are many weeks or months travel time away from Earth and the other Core planets of the Federation). This is officially still acceptable practice in today's modern navies if required. However, given how much smaller our world is today with internet and satellite communication, much faster ships and aviation, it's now possible to relatively conveniently provide either via video communication or in person actual professional fully qualified people for the situation, rather than having to rely on the ship's Captain and senior officers to perform the task.
He spent years fighting the cardassians though. Also, pretty sure an engineer working on a warship would still count as being involved in combat if the warship has an engagement.
I object to the entire idea of an NCO being declared an "expert" at anything command related, but I guess Starfleet is a little more egalitarian when it comes to real talent.
235 separate engagements, if O'Brian were Klingon he'd be held up as hero of the Empire
what gets me every time is "starfleet has decorated him fifteen times"
In the US Navy he'd be the most decorated Petty Officer in the history of the service.
If there was justice in star trek O'Brian would be the starfleet equivalent of Kang and Kor and Koloth
@@SVSky idk why but in fictional universes when they spell out characters mil record it gets me
@@Nobody36006 i like to believe that in holodeck he was
I read an interview with the actor who played the Klingon Lawyer. he played it as though he was a warrior but the court room was his battlefield. I always thought the was a very cool take.
So, like a lawyer. There was a comment I saw somewhere about this lawyer who didn't like to be confrontational/argue, but could do well in court because there there's rules and an order to everything.
Makes sense to me. Men can live or die based on what happens in a courtroom, so in a very real way the courtroom is indeed a battlefield.
Actor-kun had a point.
“Let’s say you had taken command, would you have still been forced to suffer?”
“Of course, it’s in my contract”
*”Shouldering* the burdens of command.” 😊
*Picard looks up, annoyed at Pulaski’s snide remark*
(O’Brien’s shoulders begin aching again)
"Let's say that happened. Would you order the installation of a holodeck so you can go kayaking?"
probably would play out battle of britain in black and white tbh
"Yes! Yes, I would have, sir." 🤣
"Order? Bloody hell! I'd install it myself!" 😁
"Let's say that happened.."
Thankfully it didn't, because it apparently means the situation would abruptly cut to a ad...
"Ugh, I have to clean out the Holodeck's biofilters today."
"Oh, _fun._ Nothing better than cleaning jizz out of the jizz collecto-"
"O'Brien was on the station, it's the red stuff, not the white."
"...I don't actually know which is worse."
235 engagements--before the Dominion War.
Dude was well known. Even Garak knew of his service record from the first Cardassian campaign. Garak, to say the least, is intrigued by O'Brien.
I mean he was on the Enterprise-D. That's at least a hundred space combat engagements right there.
@@SavageGreywolf 'Not a military' tho..... lmao.
He fought in the Federation-Cardassian War under Captain Maxwell
The dude is absurdly versed in personal and starship combat with hundreds of encounters .Were it not for his shoulder and it probably being cursed , he would be unstoppable .
Julian fixed the shoulder.
@@CYCO1631
Not really , he kept suffering injuries there .
One of the things I love about star trek; it gets the little things right.
Humans are prone to recurring injuries. Even if we medically remove every trace of an incident, the way we respond to crisis will naturally lead to a similar injury later.
O'Brien tends to confront issues with his upper body, but without the core or balance of a martial artist - resulting in constant shoulder injuries.
this trial is so dumb, during combat with a klingon vessel another decloaked right in the middle of it and Worf blew it up before checking if it was a "civilian" vessel like excuse me? it decloaked in the middle of a battle basically right in front of them of course it was gonna get shot at
Same thing happens in war all the time, civilians running around and get hit, then people assume it was on purpose.
@@manticore4952 i would argue this situation is fairly different then that because they literally decloaked in front of them during a battle, its not like they announced they were there and retreated then decloaked at a safe distance
@@Forsparda yea decloaking right in front of to a ship in a battle is a good way to get shot at.
It also begs the question why a passenger ship carries a military-grade cloaking device.
@@danielk5780 i forget why they were doing it but i believe that ship was there specifically to get worf to fire on it so he could be taken to the klingon empire for trial
Klingon Lawyer : 235 separate engagement
O'Brien : I was in a bloody transporter room for half of them
I was fixing the damage; most of it from your people counselor.
He was Maxwell's tactical officer and saw ground combat on Setlik III. O'brien clearly did a ton before being on the Enterprise.
I'm not surprised O'Brien was in that many engagements. It seems like he's the only non commissioned office in Star Fleet so he has to rotate around to cover all the commissioned officers;).
"I would like to have him decaled an expert in the area of starship combat."
"Any objection?"
"None."
Lol, I love the way Sisko replied because he knew good and well O'Brien being an expert in starship combat was simply a fact, even if it would hurt his case, he couldn't deny it.
Did they put the decals on his uniform or on his cheeks when he was "decaled an expert"?
@@badgercdlyons They go next to his rank pips on the collar.
'I object. My chief engineer is an imbecile.'
O'Brien is a character with a lot of hidden history ripe for stories they never developed. They outlined how he was the primary tactical officer on the Rutledge during the Cardassian war. This all seemed to change when in the battle of Setlik III he ended up killing a Cardassian with a phaser set to maximum, earning him the title "Hero of Setlik III". After this he shifted his entire career and became the Chief Petty Office on the Enterprise. 235 engagements, 15 decorations .. and he moved off into being an engineer/petty officer. And despite this he would still willingly step into command should Worf had been disabled. He makes me think of the story where Troi was faced in the holographic test of sending off a comraded to die in order to save the ship, a line that had to be crossed (and that ability to do so gave her the higher rank). And I've always wondered .. how would O'Brien do with such a test. Would he resist like Troi did .. or being extremely smart and knowing it's not real, simply send the holograph off to die (yet be filled with self doubts over doing so).
His 22 years serving in Starfleet would tell him that when serving on a starship in a crisis situation, the ship must be protected at all costs. Every officer and enlisted, like O'Brien, would give their lives in order to save the ship. Therefore, he would not hesitate to send someone to their death if it meant saving the ship and the lives onboard.
@@RedFenril He would hesitated but he would send them
a case of developed and potential charater to be sure
In the episode Disaster, isn't Obrien trapped on the bridge with Troi and Ro and each of them has their own view of how to save the ship? Ro wants to sacrifice people, Troi doesn't and Obrien is trying to engineer a way out if the problem.
the Jem hadar mention that O'Brien would be the first one they would need to take down because of his experience etc (hes the biggest threat in combat).
And on the Enterprise, they made this Starship Combat Expert the Transporter Chief...
Quiet duty station after a lot of years of service.
It's like an old navy Captain, after having spent many years on the high seas, choosing the post as a port-admiral for the last 10 years before his retirement to be closer to his grandchildren.
Makes sense to an extent he prob wanted a easy posting after a career of combat but then decided that he likes to fix stuff and sitting in a transporter room where nothing really breaks was a bit boring hence the move to an engineer role on DS9
I mean, seems like a pretty cushy gig.
Chief O’brien history prior to Encounter at farpoint is rather spotty , incomplete, and on occasion contradictory.
I have retconned my own head canon based on my knowledge as the son of a Navy Enlisted man who Qualified for Chief but chose retirement at 20 years instead of a commitment to serve longer to get the formal promotion and comparable assignment …..
Obrien was weapons officer /security chief of a pre Galaxy vessel during the Cardassian war. During a confused ground engagement He accidentally killed an enemy combatant after quickly firing a phaser thrown to him by a civilian that was not set to the stun setting and required under the current rules of engagement order by a superior officer.
While not formally reprimanded the incident left him with PTSD and he resigned his commission and served as an engineering consultant during the commissioning and fitting out of the Enterprise D. This assignment was advantageous to Mile Obrien (title uncertain) because it also have him access to PTSD therapy at the hands of Dr Deana Troi who was at that time feeling out the newly created position of Ship’s Counsellor. Obrien’s Diligence got him the attention of Plankowner Captain Picard who himself understood what The man was going through and wanted to salvage his career in Starfleet.
The bargain they struck had O Brien having personal domain of the transporters systems on the ship, agreeing to provide relief and support services to security, engineering, Tactical and Conn as he trained up fresh officers .
Obrien got on well with acting first officer and head of Ops Lt commander Data, newly assigned Security chief Yar, fresh faced Bridge officer Worf, as well as The team of UP engineering officers and civilians who ran Engineering by committee, but he remain aloof to all of them…… he was still a Rutledge man even if he had cut ties with his old crowd.
In the end Obrien agreed to stay on, resurrecting an archaic title from planetary Naval Days, Chief of the Boat.
thats probably where he got a lot of these "235 separate engagements"
235 enguagements in 22 years?
That is 10.68 engagements every year... almost 1 engagement every month!?
Considering the Enterprise-D was poking it's nacelles in every space anomaly on a given week I'd assume the USS Rutledge was doing the same but with more shooting and less talky science. Like a typical episode of TNG but the captain listens to Worf and just shoots the space-chaos-thingo.
Well, he *is* married.
Objection, calls for speculation.
yep, this whole line of questioning should have been thrown out
If Chief O' Brien has THAT many combat medals, why didn't Starfleet give him a field commission make him an officer?
Maybe they tried and he didn’t want it. Some people are just happier where they are
If an NCO says no, the officer corps are smart enough to not push it. Some things never change.
Because he didn't want it, presumably. O'Brien was perfectly content as an NCO. It meant that he could focus on the work that he enjoyed, letting others do the big stuff, make the big decisions, give the orders. It says everything about the man that he worked Nog hard, taught him well, but when Nog finally graduated and got that pip, O'Brien smiled as he called Nog "sir."
Of course, if the Valiant cadets had rescued him then tried to pull their made-up ranks, he would've given them a dressing down that they'd still be wincing at fifty years later. It's often missed in the Valiant episode that Nog, as the ranking officer (and only officer) should have taken command. Those deaths were his responsibility too. Nobody blamed Nog, of course, anymore than Riker was blamed for his own mistake. Newly minted ensigns are too young and inexperienced to do these things.
Miles O'Brien is not Officer material... I do not mean in terms of competency, he doesn't have that character... I was in the Navy... it's a thing. Julien Bashir is an awesome doctor... he is not command material. I don't care that he is five times smarter than Sisko... he doesn't have that character. He is also too independent and too arrogant to make it in the enlisted ranks.
Waste of a good chief
Leading, Speculation, objection
O'Brien is a hostile witness. An expert can opine about ultimate facts. Hypothetical matters are appropriate, in particular when testing the consistency of the witness.
@@aguilayserpienteAgreed.
Its not a normal court, its a court martial. Ever seen Drumhead?
@@gg-eo6ez Do not military rules of evidence exist?
@@aguilayserpiente That depends entirely on the military doesn't it? In Star Trek it appears that the Admiral running the court martial has 100% authority over the procedure, even since the days of TOS.
Should've told the Klingon: "I don't deal in hypotheticals"
nor do the courts, at least not in a military setup like this one, so really, his entire line of questioning would have been stopped or thrown out anyways.
He really should have objected to the question as being irrational since his response of whether he would have fired or not would undeniably be tinted by the later information he acquired .
Technically he does say that at the end. His decision to not fire is only because he has hindsight, where if he were in command at the time with no knowledge of the outcome he probably would have, heck, Sisko probably would have.
OBJECTION! Speculation.
It was a hypothetical situation. He should not be tried on a hypothese, just on facts alone.
Hypotheticals are often allowed when asking for the opinion of an expert about the rationality of a course of action of a similarly situated person, such as a defendant who is also an expert on the same subject. Though, it must also not require the expert to engage in conjecture about unknown factors; the hypothetical must be grounded in agreed upon facts of the case, not “what ifs” that the defendant didn’t face in the first place.
In this case it would be a perfectly valid question to ask what he would’ve done in Worf’s position. It wouldn’t be speculation as he’s not being asked to guess about whether or not a certain statement of fact is true, just what his opinion about the facts at hand would be if applied to him.
Whats funny is the Sully movie made up a scene where the FTSB was trying to suggest that other pilots would not have taken the same action and Hanks as Captain Sullivan rightly points out that all the pilots they put in the same situation as him had hindsight and instructions to pursue another course of action and so would not be able to act as they realistically would in that situation. This clip ends before O'Brian gets to add that his decision to not fire is only because of what he knows after the fact. That perspective changes when you are in that chair in the moment.
As an Armchair Quarterback, all my passes are completions, because from my TV angle of the field, I would have thrown to the other receiver who was open.
@@gregoryt1139 Excellent!! (Just so you know, my defensive made the critical interceptions with pick-6's, and sacks.)
In reality, the inquiry was nothing but a formality, and Captain Sullenberger received a standing ovation upon his arrival.
Would he have taken command? There wasn't another commissioned bridge officer around? My understanding of SOP is that a NCO wouldn't take command unless there was no one else of a CO rank, unless the Chief had been appointed as XO, but that seems unlikely.
The entire crew complement of the Defiant was about 50, so it's possible he was the highest ranking bridge crew after the captain.
He wouldn’t have. Kira was sitting right there. He was asked to speculate as an expert in those situations
Doesn’t matter what he would have done after the fact bc he’s got hindsight and already got to see the consequences of that decision path play out. He has extra future information at his disposal that Worf didn’t.
Ah, chief O’Brien. Jack of all trades and had every position even though he’s enlisted.
Where I work that would brand one as a failure. A "jack of all trades" is a master of continually screwing up their current assignment.
I like that O'Brien was an NCO, but it makes no sense in Star Trek, where seemingly every person in Starfleet is an Ensign or above.
_"Damnit, I'm an engineer, not a warrior!"_
Objection! Hypothetical
Oh man i read that as Conan o'Brian declared expert in starship combat.
This is the next best thing
Misreading youtube titles is a fun, albeit, accidental pastime.
He was a NCO....unless all the other officers were also killed, how would he take command?
I believe we only see Worf, Kira and O'brien on the Defiant bridge during the battle. Given the circumstances, at least for this engagement, I could see Kira being outside the chain of command on the Defiant thereby making O'brien the acting captain if Worf went down.
DS9 is the best Star Trek show. Change my mind.
I've been on lots of aeroplanes, does that make me an expert in aviation?
It depends. Does eating a lot of chinese food make me an east-asia expert?
@@danielk5780 might make you an expert on where not to buy chinese food in your area
Were you decorated 15 times for Valor in Business Class?
I worked it out... That's just under 1 a month... interesting career. I wonder what constitutes a combat engagement. Do stand offs count ro do that actually have to fire. Also does it count if he's just the transported chief at the time and simply on board? Or does he have to take an actual role in the fighting?
I'm just interested btw not picking holes.
Nice to see O'Brien getting some respect.
A Vulcan judge makes the most sense.
Makes the least sense. Vulcan worship logic they don't use it as a tool.
That character is the least honorable Klingon lawyer we’ve ever seen
"Would you have taken command..." Yeah, if all the other officers were dead. Chief maybe a senior NCO, but there is a chain of command.
Who's the actor playing the Klingon lawyer? I'm almost positive he also played a Moclan on The Orville.
Maybe after 235 engagements, O'Brian lost his enthusiasm for being a warrior you know.
No. Chief of Brian is an enlisted, not an officer. CPO's of the Navy/Coast Guard are the senior enlisted; from Chief, E-7; Senior Chief, E-8; to Master Chief, E-9.
Starfleet follows Navy/Coast Guard ranks (officer class) and rates (enlisted men) and therefore, next officer after Worf; would assume command. If Worf was the CO, then the XO. Think Picard = CO; and Riker = XO.
It sounds impressive until you realise that a cook on the USS Enterprise can also claim to be in every combat the ship was involved in but that wouldn’t make him an expert.
This side of the trial would have been shut down quick. Calls for speculation. O’Brien wasn’t captain.
O’Brien is a non commissioned officer, would he be next in the chain of command to Captain the Defiant. I know he probably have the experience to take command but would he be next in the chain of command ?
"Let's say that happened."
"Okay, immediate withdraw and permanent shore leave for everybody WITH PAY. Any objections?"
"For the record, Chief O'brien has been in 235 separate engagements and Starfleet has decorated him 15 times"
umm big blunder on sisko's part, they want to make O'brain an expert in the area of starship combat, and sisko dosent even raise the clear objection off O'brain is an enginering officer and not a trained tatical officer, Combat is not is area of expertise
This episode was terrible.
Prosecutor: "We concede all the defenses points."
Defense: "So we win, right?"
Judge: "No. Because Worf gets angry sometimes."
"Let's say that happened."
"OK, 'That happened.'"
Chief O'Brian fought in the Cardasian War, easy to think he could have gained a lot of combat experience there.
235 seperate engagements...
Poor miles found himself in combat once a month for 20 years.
Ok maybe an organization that lets a guy have 200+ engagements needs to reevaluate their training protocols.
That dude should have been training the next 20 generations of officers for sure
He is a trainer by series end. It's likely he was offered several times but only accepted it at the series end.
Yeah, DS9 is consistently fantastic, but there's a reason I always skip Star Trek's courtroom episodes. After a single semester of legal studies (yeah, not even pre-law), I just...no.
235, not bad for a service branch claiming not to be a military branch
Experience in combat doesn’t make you an expert.
O'Brian's take is actually both total bullshit and contradictory to his established character. He refused Bashir's direct order and destroyed a very good chance at neutralizing or damaging the Jemhadar threat because it was more expedient to their immediate goal of destroying the few enemies on that planet and escaping. Also, there's no way a civilian cargo/transport ship would get right the fck in the middle of a fight and just decloak 5 meters infront of an enemy and taking the time to verify the target in that situation before firing would be a mentally handicapped move. It's not a city street full of civilians that might run infront of your sights, it's fcking space.
This is nothing to O'Brien. The Klingon attorney here is a piece of cake compared to Keiko.
I always forget happy go lucky Obrian was a war hero in the Cardasisan war.
There weren't other officers onboard to take command? lol
Klingon knows Human English ❓🔥🥃
Don't you know? They wrote all the famous works of Shakespeare!
Yeah, he was in the transporter room 235 times. How does that make him an expert in star ship combat?
He was already a war hero before he was transferred to the Enterprise. Being an engineer there was basically semi-retirement
235 engagements today so far...
22 years, 235 combat situations
But Starfleet's NOT a military... sure it ain't.
That was all during the cardassian border disagreement.
A war to the cardassians and misunderstanding for the federation
@@drrohanjacob Do you remember Miles explaining Setlik III? Yeah, that was one engagement... how many more do you think would qualify him to be a soldier?
And honestly, its rare that you sign an armistice and then a treaty for a "disagreement"; that's the path out of a war.
That argument was always terrible. Of course starfleet is a military. It builds fkking warships.
Nobody knows that he spend 200 of them in a transporter room 😅
Classic. Ty for hd.
The Klingon guy had every right to pursue that line of questioning. It was Siskos fault (why do we use people without law degress in such a high-profile case?) to not anticipate that line of questioning and have O'Brien explain that he did not take the Command-test and was not qualified to be in command of a Starship, much less one with the tactical capabilities of the Defiant. The least Sisko could have done is raise an objection and state exactly that when the court was about to declare him an expert in starship combat:
1. What constitutes expertise?
2. Go into how Starfleet trains people to be Starship Commanders.
3. State that O'Brien has not taken the command-test.
4. Conclude that O'Brien is not an expert.
if he was the ranking officer then he should have taken command if he had taken the test or not
and as far as training goes, someone with 22 years and 200 combat engagements is more qualified than someone like Troy who did take the exam and barely passed
Yeah this is especially weird since O'Brien is an NCO. Even if he has the expertise, there were commissioned officers on the bridge who would be first in line to take command if Worf were incapacitated. The whole line of questioning is flawed, albeit in a way that's consistent with the writers' struggle to figure out how NCOs actually work in Starfleet.
th-cam.com/video/Ss_J_4F_nIM/w-d-xo.html - I think you'd really like his take on Starfleet's fascination with putting bridge officers in charge of trials. Comedic, of course.
Why do we use people without law degrees in such a high-profile case? Answer because a person with a high-profile law degree isn't readily or immediately available. They are on a Deep Space station outside and beyond the borders of the vast expanse of Federation Space during a time of major interstellar war and unrest. Therefore, they have to utilise the highest ranked and closest experienced and qualified people immediately available, which is nearly always the Captain and next highest rank senior officers.
Other examples are the TNG episode "The Measure of Man", where both Picard and Riker are required to be lawyers in a hearing regarding Data's status as a sentient being, and the TNG episode "The Ensigns of Command", where Picard has to act as Lawyer in treaty dispute and negotiation between the Federation and the Sheliak regarding humans inhabiting a Sheliak planet.
This was very much how it was in the European navies of the European colonial era of the 1400s-1900s, upon which Star Trek, the Federation and Starfleet are heavily based. The international places of trade, colonial outposts, and navy ships of each major European nation would in most cases be many weeks to months sail away from their home country. So when the situation required it far from home, the ship's Captain and senior officers would be expected and required to act as a Judge, Priest, Lawyer, Ambassador, etc. (Just as how most of Starfleet's star-bases, outposts and ships are many weeks or months travel time away from Earth and the other Core planets of the Federation).
This is officially still acceptable practice in today's modern navies if required. However, given how much smaller our world is today with internet and satellite communication, much faster ships and aviation, it's now possible to relatively conveniently provide either via video communication or in person actual professional fully qualified people for the situation, rather than having to rely on the ship's Captain and senior officers to perform the task.
In Worf defense it’s wasn’t his fault
RIP James Avery
An expert in starship combat? He was a transporter chief lol
He spent years fighting the cardassians though. Also, pretty sure an engineer working on a warship would still count as being involved in combat if the warship has an engagement.
I object to the entire idea of an NCO being declared an "expert" at anything command related, but I guess Starfleet is a little more egalitarian when it comes to real talent.
An NCO would never be asked these questions. Total BS.
Klingon Lawyer?? PATAKH!!!!
25y5m
That Klingon is too black, lol.