To me the most annoying thing Astruc has done is completely ignore criticism from the fans. When we want more focus on Adrien, he’s removed from the final battle. When we want a Chloe redemption, she becomes as irritating and as cruel as Astruc can make her. His refusal to improve his characters really put me off the show
@@langdonledwig3734 I agree, even Kagami said in season 4 that Marinette was meant for Adrien because she knew everything about him, Astruc really hates listening to his fans
@@_MyNameIsAJ_ Yup, I maybe wouldn't have minded taking that long if the writers had bothered on developing their friendship, then romantic feelings but nope, its all rushed into one season.
Also they add a new character Zoe who is just a Chloe replacement. Or a way to work around not giving Chloe a redemption arc. It’s amazing that Akechi from persona 5 is better handled than Chloe.
One thing that just… really highlights how immature this guy is was when the movie was released. Most creators would be PUMPED if their show got a critically acclaimed animated film. Not Astruc. He proceeded to have a full blown TANTRUM about it any time someone brought it up to him. Swearing up and down, left and right, diagonally, back to front that the movie gave us what we want… but the show gives us what we need? What, you mean character assassination, a plot that’s flown so far off the rails it’s escaped orbit, and an unhealthy main romance that’s completely ECLIPSED the entire premise of the show? That’s what we need, Thomas? Seriously? I swear, I have never seen a creator that is so… for lack of a better word, _ungrateful_ for their success. Thomas frequently picks fights with his fans, insults them, talks down to them, laughs at fan concepts, and just overall acts as much of a spoiled brat as Chloe sometimes. Which is ironic, all things considered.
Wait he got mad at the movie? 😅 that’s insane I didn’t think I would see someone pull a Roosterteeth and be petty towards other adaptions of their works that they weren’t involved in.
@@riotkitty "The movie gives you what you want, the show gives you what you need." -Thomas Astruc- His ego is so large that he thinks he KNOWS what people need.
@@riotkitty He shot himself right in the foot, yet his ego is so large that he wasn't even realizing it Duh! Why do you think people consume entertainment?! They don't need it, they want it.
I think it was less "hating on Chloe" and more getting really petty about the amount of love Chloe received from the fandom. No one can hate their own character that much unless there's other factors involved, like obnoxious fans insisting they know more about the character he created than he does. (Though, that's partially his fault by allowing the fans to constantly scream into his ear about Chloe instead of setting his Twitter to private.)
@@CjJLXxR ong it's getting freaking boring now like you can't make me hate her much as I hate Mari she makes her look like a saint she has done worse crimes then chloe she needs to be in jail
This would be my primary criticism of this show from what I know about it. If it's meant to be for children, then this type of behavior should not be shown to them and perceived as love or affection.
@@chaliceflame1314 My primary criticism is the idea that your relationship can be built on toxic lies about abusive parents. I’m sorry, I’m not forgiving Marinette for that.
@@nynys4940spoiler alert: Basically in the season 5 finale mari and gabriel fight (while adrien is locked up), gabriel gets the miraculouses and makes the wish, sacrificing himself to bring nathalie (after she died due to using the peacock miraculous) back so she can take care of adrien. In the aftermath mari lies to everyone and especially adrien that hawkmoth and gabriel are two different people so adrian can live in peace. Plus the show glorified gabriel as hero with complete disregard to his misdeeds that he has done throughout the series which was just gross!
It has good factors and bad factors. It is your favourite show that mean obviously it's made you to like it.Btw I have kind of love hate relationship with this show 👁️👅👁️
Also i'm not buying the thing about "Chloe was never planned to change" because then why was Queen Bee in *all* the marketing? I actually believe the theory that Jeremy Zag liked chloe and was more involved during the first two seasons, and after he left to work on the movie, Thomas had full control and did all in his power to dethrone the queen. After all, if she was never supposed to be the "true" bee holder, why only introduce Zoe after chloe's downfall? Hell, before she was never even alluded to existing.. also chloe's writing in general feels completely different. Even in season one, she was a fun character who felt like a person. Post season four she's just this walking charicature. She doesn't have any redeemimg traits and we're constsntly reminfed by other characters that we're supposed to hate her and how nothing excuses her behaviour. A real shame.. i am confident that she'll get her glorious return in awakening 2 tho
It's possible that Astruc has always liked the concept of the Bee hero. Afterall, a concept Bee hero is in the new shows promotional poster for Zag Heroez alongside Ladybug instead of Chat Noir (and she doesn't look like concept-Chloe). So, Queen Bee was at the forefront of marketing because Astruc wanted a Bee hero there rather than wanting Chloe there specifically. And Zoe only getting introduced after Chloe's fall instead of ahead of time could possibly be down to just bad writing. (These are the same writers that stuffed the final four hero debuts into the grand team-up episode after all.)
@@DigiVixen exactly.. especially Zag pushed her a whole lot. There's so much Art of all the "Zag Heroez" with characters of his other Shows no one watched or never came out like the Ghost Force, Zak Storm, Pixie Girl etc. And the miraculous representation consists of LB, CN AND Queen Bee. She's always there! Even without Rena Rouge or Carapace. Besides.. afaik there aren't any Hawk Moth or Mayura dolls..
I hate the “it’s a kid’s show” argument. I usually see that being used to justify bad/lazy writing. It implies that children don’t deserve well written stories. It’s especially irritating when they constantly drop the ball when introducing and using toxic topics. There is a certain level of responsibility when doing kid shows because children tend to be not as equipped as teens and adults to understand the nuances and subtleties and separate fiction from reality as easily (even adults have problems doing that and I think that’s due to the decline in using critical thinking skills, but that’s another topic). Not to say Miraculous has any of that or does it well; it’s as subtle as a bull in a China shop.
Well if you ask me the show grows with us. My sister was 7 when it came out she's in high school and the show grows with it. She and her friends who were grew out of it and I started same Era and continued after it grew more the stakes
"It's a kid's show" is almost never used as a genuine defence. When a show is good, it's "an example of how children's content can be more than for just children, mature, tackle difficult themes, etc." But as soon as that show does something like have poor character development or have a bad theme, suddenly it's "just a kid's show" and everyone pointing out the issues are "overthinking a show meant for kids". It's a double-standard all focused on defending the show they like without putting any thought into it.
Thank you! I’ve been saying this for a long time now and honestly hate and get annoyed at the amount of people who always use the “it’s for kids” argument to shield a badly written movie or show from criticism. And I often get that whenever I criticize the bad writing on these bad live action Sonic movies.
@@blueraccoon1088 Honestly, I haven’t been in the fandom for very long, and I watched the show in a smaller time frame. As the show went on, the characters have gotten MORE naive. As mentioned before, the darker topics they do bring in aren’t handled with the sensitivity, respect, time and nuances that they REQUIRE to be written well, like with Marinette’s supposed trauma. It was dropped almost as quickly as it was introduced, and is very inconsistent. Which sucks because I was really looking forward to her being more fleshed out and developed as a character. The presence of dark topics doesn’t necessarily reflect the maturity of the show/characters.
I have A LOT of issues with how Chloe’s character was handled. But I think the most insulting thing was Andre. How the HELL is the show going to try and convince me that Andre is 100% innocent in the whole ordeal. He’s treated as if Chloe was the one abusing him even though HE was the neglectful and spineless father who only started to really step up due to his sudden care for Zoe. And he didn’t even try to connect with Chloe after Zoe’s introduction. He just disowns her and adopts Zoe (Mr. Lee be damned.) Like no, of course I’m not going to have sympathy for Andre. He and Andrey share the blame for being terrible parents! But the show never sees the situation as such. And that gets on my nerves.
For me Andre is person who is also a victim of Audrey's behavior, but is also ignorant of actually showing true guidance and discipline. He is a doormat. He does try to appease both Audrey and Chloe's desires quite often. That's what he views as "parenting". But it is terrible. He is an enabler. Maybe that's his way of coping with Audrey's behavior. You can make the argument that he is in an abusive relationship and that he copes by trying to fulfill Audrey's and Chloe's desires. There are plenty of relationships out there where people stay with their abusive partners and find ways of coping that aren't healthy. In reality Andre should have cut Audrey out years ago, but it hasn't hit him to do that. That's fairly common with abusive relationships. He just feeds into their bad habits. He also has loose morals on what he does and is corrupt in how he exercises his power. He enables Chloe plenty of times by using his position as mayor. The thing is that while he does abuse his position, he does so for Chloe's desires because he thinks that is the way to make her happy and raise her. But that is the wrong direction. Andre does seem to care for Chloe, but his way of raising her is not a good one. Audrey is a lost cause. What I would have wanted is for Andre to stand up for himself against Audrey and cut her out of his life. Then take accountability for his failure in raising Chloe. That means stopping her bad habits and actually establishing boundaries. He can show a good example by actually taking his position seriously and not abusing his power. What the show did in which he just disowns Chloe, takes no responsibility for his role in turning her into this state, and sends her off to live with Audrey was frankly disgusting.
@@Justin-ui5ti Not only establishing boundaries but actually engaging with Chloe and loving her. If bro actually had the power to quit being mayor at anytime (as seen in S5) then he literally has NO excuse as to why he was so neglectful towards her.
@@Justin-ui5ti Disowning your own child cause YOU raised them wrong sounds like such a massive- Ok, I’ll be serious. What the fuck were they thinking? Andre would get away with the shit he enabled and practically taught his own daughter? The whole thing with smearing your opponent? SHE GOT FROM HIM! He’s not just neglectful, he’s a bad influence!
What makes Chloe's failed redemption suck even more is that Lila exists. She easily could've been the spiteful brat that Chloe was but a lot more nasty and irredeemable with Chloe thinking "Wow, I could've stayed like this and my life would've just been worse off." A proper Chloe redemption (at least to me): -Chloe bedding her relationship with Sabrina (remember Antibug from season 1? I know Astruc doesn't, but remember we saw Chloe and Sabrina cosplaying as Ladybug and Cat Noir and just having fun together? They even slept near each other, giving hints that they really are close friends? -Ms. Bustier adopting Chloe as her daughter, giving her the positive mother figure she never had. -The butler (don't remember his name) being Chloe's father figure since her real one is spineless and as shown in season 5, would just abandon her for the "better one" despite it being at fault for Chloe's behavior as much as Chloe's mom. -Chloe being an Anti-Hero who is more willing to do underhanded things in order to stop Hawk Moth and find out his identity.
A bit late but exactly! Lila exists so there is already a character who is evil just for the sake of it (almost unbealivably so like there is no way a teenage girl pulls a triple life or wtv) So having a character that changes for the better and evolves would have been nice. Like in shows (for example) BSD, you have characters like Akutagawa who are evil and have done horrible things, they have backstories that explain WHY do they do it, and they eventually start to improve themselves for the better! But you also have pure evil characters like Fyodor, Shibuzawa and Mori. Any good story needs a balance in characters, you just cant have evil characters that are a carbon copy of each other. Plus having hawk moth semi-redeemed and chlore villianized to hell and back is just stupid. Your idea for Miss. Bustier and the butler is really good! I would love to see that on a fic,
I always liked the idea (kinda my headcanon I guess) that Chloe did "steal" the bee miraculous and become a third party, an enemy to Hawk Moth but not necessarily an ally to Ladybug (since they want to get the bee miraculous back) and as Queen Bee went on, she learned being a hero is more than fame and glory, but the rewarding feeling of helping others, etc. Also, Marinette's whole thing about "you can't be Queen Bee again because Hawk Moth knows your identity" is complete BS because he also knows everybody else's identity (and she knows he knows) yet she still gave out the other miraculous like halloween candy to the same people over and over, and made even worse when in Kuro Neko we see that the new holder of the cat miraculous after Chat Noir quit ... is just Adrien again but with a different costume.
oh my God i would die for the things u said to happen, her having ms Bustier as a mom would make me cry of joy, but instead he made her say awful shit a teacher should never say to a kid...
@@chaliceflame1314 If I get constantly cyber bullied by over exaggerating fans (the man has his flaws but we're on Twitter, when you can receive all the hate of the world for basically nothing), how am I supposed to handle them?
Thomas has the "I still haven't let go of things from High School" energy. Like, his ego totally lead to the mishandling of Chloe as a Character. Like, if Chloe's 1-Dimensional and "Evil for Evil's Sake" then don't give her an emotionally abusive Mother. Like, let's be real, Chloe was meant to be Queen Bee, look at her Civilian Outfit, even to this day she rocks the Queen Bee Patterns/Color-Scheme. She was on her way to being an Anti-Hero, learning from her mistakes, given a chance to change by Ladybug. Like in the episode where she almost yanked Mayura's Miraculous in Miracular, like, she was a team player, she was changing for the better. Reform by being given a chance to reform. People aren't chiseled in stone, I've seen good people turn bad, and bad people grow & transform into good people. And let's be real, Marinette was the Catalyst for Chloe reverting to her old ways and becoming worse, because the one avenue where Chloe could embetter herself (The Miraculous) was suddenly yanked from her because "People knew her identity" but she'd give Kagami & others with revealed identities still have theirs. She was on the sidelines begging to help, begging to get in the game, and for no good reason got shut out by Ladybug. If anything Thomas ended up making Marinette a hypocrite. I don't like how he massacred Chloe, I hope one day they correct course with her, have her hit rock bottom & build herself up. Otherwise the point of the show is "Never let people change, never let them grow, never forgive"
the last sentence is truly summarize the meaning of miraculous unless if you're bootlicking someone like Marinette no matter what kind awful things that little shit have done
I still can't believe that, when she had the chance to make things better between herself and Chloé, Marinette instead basically says, "You're only good at being a terrible person, just like your mother." And yet she's surprised when Chloé starts to act even worse. Anyone else would've looked a a child asking, "Why don't you love me, Mom?" and said that a child shouldn't have to earn the love of a parent. For crying out loud, Chicken Little is one of the least liked films in the Disney animated canon, and it did that message better. But oh no, it's all Chloé’s fault. How can you blame her parents? It's not like that was the running theme in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Even her half-sister who came out of nowhere and said she'd always love her no matter what had nothing to say by the end. Nope, every abusive parent in the show had good reasons to do so, except Colt Fathom who we never meet.
Also, the whole "you can't be a hero anymore because everyone knows your identity" argument has a solution that was later revealed in kuro neko where it was revealed that a hero can change his suit and identity by changing his behavior, and that would've worked very well with chloe's character and redemption arc because in order for her to stay a hero, she needs to act nicer to get a new identity.
Reminds me of this gem from Kim Possible. Ron: Blah, blah, blah, complain, complain, complain. You know, when life gives you lemons..... Dr Drakkon: I COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LEMONS!
@@usernotfound_____yet I personally have an idea for an AU scenario; Imagine Pollen went away without a word to find Chloe as to not abandon her ‚queen‘ and helping her to become a proper ‚queen‘. Chloe‘s alternative her identity would be ‚Humble Bee‘ (bumblebee and humble) so that Chloe can get a chance to make things right, like Pollen saw that Chloe has potential to be very ‚special‘, but that she has still to prove to be worthy for a hero. Humble Bee is a version of Chloe who is willing to change for the better and having the desire to be a hero, but that she learns to become a better person to be a better hero, aka getting off her imaginary high horse to reach her goal. Chloe would be an ideal tertiary protagonist who often assists Ladybug and Chat Noir in particular situations where they need to incapacitate villains. Another nice add-on is that Pollen is willing to serve her ‚queen‘ Chloe only if Chloe learns to better herself for her own sake as Chloe has self-worth problems and thus her bullying others is just a vent to distract herself for not having a talent; this could align very well of why she makes fun of Marinette constantly aside from Adrien, she sees how Marinette is loved by everyone while Chloe has none. This could lead to Pollen suggesting that Chloe should make up and act nicer to the ones she wronged, with the first focus being in fact Marinette. One wacky idea is that Chloe decides to work in the Dupent-Cheng‘s bakery as a first step (aka Pollen suggested that, Chloe pestering her father to convince Marinette‘s parents to get Chloe a part-time job at their job, and Chloe for the first time actually doing some work etc)
The thing about Chloe and the creator's response about her is that him not being able to shut up is not the worst part. The worst part is that in reality there are kids like Chloe who are acting bad because of their horrible parents. By saying that Chloe is evil to her core and can't be changed he was saying the same thing to those children. Creator of the children show absolutley should not be talking like that it's just harmful
also chloe wouldve been a good addition to the group considering shes the only person who had a different opinion on what ladybug and cat noir said while everyone else is just a “yes mam” person. Imagine if homelander had this squad he wouldve went insane
@@margeryojije7862the issue isn’t wether we hate Chloé or not.. it’s how she was handled as a character. Look at Scarlet Lady AU and how she was handled there
I wonder if the girl Chloe is based on (who supposedly bullied Astruc in school) is just out there living her life, maybe had a family, and is completely unaware that this random guy she knew as a kid has a sad, obsessive, one sided beef with her…
I don’t know either and I didn’t go to their school, but if I had to guess, That girl probably stole his lunch money one time and he’s probably held a grudge ever since. Or, even more likely, he probably dropped his lunch money, she probably found it randomly and picked it up and kept it, and he probably decided she was an irredeemable monster for ‘stealing his lunch money’. Idk tho. Just a guess.
Honestly, I think Smarty really summed up the biggest issue with Astruc. Even when he's making a point that's somewhat reasonable, he says it in such an arrogant way that it makes him insufferable. Also, it's nice to see The Immaturity of Thomas Astruc get a shout-out.
I think the worst part about this is that Miraculous is suppose to be a kid's show and this gives a lot of horrible life lessons, some of which are flat out disturbing. For example in season 2 it's very clear that Jeremy Zag had a different vision for Chloe, a misunderstood bully who acts like this due to her neglectful/abusive family, however by showing her some kindness she starts changing for the better, something that a lot of fans wanted. Unfortunately, because of Thomas hate boner for Chloe, he gives a black and white image to a point where he sabotages his own show just to spite fans who like her or dare to question him.
@@justaguy263that's true, but for this writing team it's apparently a mandate that Marinette HAS to learn a lesson every time, even when it's not her fault
@@ggrarl Maybe in the beginning but in recent seasons the life lessons were not present. The last thing to actually and genuinely teach life lessons is the Paris special.
The fact that he's blocking everyone who has a different opinion than him speaks volumes. I mean, people call him "Ass-truck" for a reason. He created a show with pretty deep topics and flawed characters yet he keeps denying that the topics are deep and the characters are flawed (especially with Adrien). And then he calls the fans stupid for "reading too much into it because it's just a kid's show". He should be grateful that the fans and their love for the characters are keeping the show alive, otherwise it would've crashed and burned years ago.
Aren't people on Twitter say that you're allowed to block people for any reason whatsoever? I know we all are hating this guy here but what's wrong with hum setting boundaries with people he doesn't like?
@@Sonchikas1 The problem is not that he's setting boundaries when people are being rude or attacking him. The problem is him not wanting fans to "overthink" the show. People are speculating and asking questions about the show, which he doesn't like because he feels it's a personal insult to his "greatness". So he gives them passive aggressive replies or blocks them and then goes on a rant about the fans being stupid or sexist or pushing their beliefs and opinions onto him (which isn't what they're doing). He only accepts comments if people praise him or his show, which is why fans don't tend to like him very much.
@@schraeder22 I'll bite the bullet here and say that falls under "any reason whatsoever". Passive agressiveness and rants is not graceful but blocking someone is not wrong if you don't want to hear anything from them? It's none of your business whether they do it to "protect their greatness" or peace of mind. Telling people publicly you got blocked by someone is kinda cringe - not only you do not respect someone's decision not to interact with you but you also make it everyone else's business.
Because Astruc is french if we use the appelation "Ass-truck". I know it since I am French too, we call him like that and it has become the norm in Miraculous fandom.
@@Sonchikas1 He can block people, but then he should just shut up about it. Because the main issue with him is not the blocking itself, but the actions that surround it. Calling people out and insulting them. Which is just such a shitty thing to do, regarding the age of a lot of miraculous fans. If he wants to protect his peace of mind, he should just block everyone he doesn't want to interact with and move on. And if he doesn't want people asking questions, he should just move to a platform where he can turn off replies. I don't mind if people mention they got blocked by him, because people don't take it seriously and mostly just make fun of it - it's basically a running gag among the fans who interact with him. He's not problematic because he blocks people, his overall behaviour is shitty and childish, which is why the fandom doesn't like him. His reactions and little temper tantrums just say a lot about him as a person.
Astruc's argument "I'm a professional and you're not" falls flat after you've read that one tweet in which another professional in the field gave him a negative feedback, only for him to retort "this is a logical fallacy, you're asking me to accept your opinion merely because you work in this field". You just can't win with Astruc 😅
He's a manchild, and a very annoying one at that. It's also a bit creepy how he calls Marinette his daughter, imagining her to be his child and his ex's(idk if that's real. I think I heard it in a review). Also, he thinks he's a feminist, but feminism isn't about women being better than men. Feminism is about equality.
Also he claims Adrien is perfect and does no wrong, it's the world that's wrong. Like sure... the world can be wrong, that doesn't negate that Adrien is still flawed (even if those flaws were caused by the neglect and abuse that he endured).
Sometimes, I think about how arrogant Thomas Astruc is, and how he's like 'I'm a professional writer and the one who made a popular show. I doubt you can say the same, so your criticism is invalid'. And I'm like 'I don't need to be a professional chef to know when the food I'm being served tastes like sewer waste!'
He is the reason why I don’t want to watch season 5. The way he ruined so many characters. Chloe being a caricature because of how much he hates his own creation. Marinette being intolerable but it is fine because of how much he favors his own creation. Adrien just being pushed to the side again and again and again. That season 4 finale still made me so mad. I am not mad at her for choosing felix because she thought it was Adrien. Fine. What I am mad about is her flaunting him in front of everyone including Cat Noir because she just replaced him again and she does not care how he feels. I get her being frustrated when he constantly flirts with her when she does not want that or shows up at the wrong time. What I don’t get is when she does not use the words “i’m sorry” or try to listen to how other people feel. I mean it is Alya who noticed Cat Noir struggling with things. Jeez. I saw the first few episodes of season 5 and they made ladybug and Cat Noir so incompetent. Do I want them to have their powers at this point?
I stopped watching because I couldn't stand the constant jogging in place (the love-square and the plot), as well as the torment Marinette constantly went through making me really uncomfortable.
i don't even have words for season 5. suffice to say it burned any and all grace i was willing to extend and i won't be watching the next season(s). save your frustration. watch summaries and don't invest your time.
He reminds a lot of what the Nickelodeon creators go through like Butch Hartman where they will make a TV show and think they're GOATED due to that fact, however they also seem to develop a fragile ego from that
@base21 Nah, the writers and animators for his shows were goated. Just look at how Danny Phantom fell off in season 3 once Butch took hold in writing, and his completely different art style compared to all his shows. He's just the idea guy.
Hey at least Butch has some talent like when Danny Phantom fell off a fair bit in season three cause of his decisions it was still alright like Butch is great ideas Meh execution meanwhile Thomas is is just garbage
The thing is I wouldn't have needed a Chloe redemption if they hadn't started doing one. I could have lived with her being the mean girl forever if season 2 hadn't happened. I also would have been fine with a subverted redemption if it had been built up to with a natural progression. Redemption arcs usually aren't linear and if Chloe had along the way fallen back into old habits somehow I think it could have worked. But the way it happened was so out of nowhere it wasn't subversive or clever it was just a retcon.
Somebody on the team with much more media training than astruc put it a way I like, that it is meant to show kids that not everyone is worth your time, and while you should be kind to others and give them a chance, you should also be kind to yourself and not force yourself to engage with people who hurt you. It's not your job to sacrifice and fix someone even if they are pitiable. I think that was a valuable lesson even if it flopped. And while I get wanting to see chloe be redeemed, I think they subverted it just fine. If you watch those episodes again with that in mind, you can see at every step of the way that she is not actually improving, her eyes are constantly looking to make sure someone sees her being nice. When she went too long without a chance to show off how heroic she is, she created a situation herself where she could be a hero, by endangering a lot of people. I personally didn't find it misleading at all, but I might be much older and have consumed a much wider variety of media than the average viewer lol, so I do tend to look for these things.
@@Demonsta Here’s the thing about this. Yes, Chloe didn’t really change but I still think this undersells that Chloe still had potential. (I’d argue the one time she was being genuine is In Maladiktator) And the “not everyone is worth your time” lesson would have been a great lesson for Chloe to learn in terms of her mom. The reality is, Chloe as a villain didn’t put anything new on the table and her demonization arc did more harm than good. She was better off as an anti hero than a “villain”
One thing I can never forget is that him calling me stupid for saying how I didn’t like what he did with the girls in this show, and how they all should be friends working together instead of being enemies just because theres one rich white boy they decided to stick like a glue as if he’s the last male child in the universe. I know lots of people already complained about it but instead of finding my tweet in the sea of complaint tweets and calling me stupid he could’ve just not responded at all. I was 15 at that time💀💀💀💀 he blocked me after writing few more tweets, then his fans started attacking me as well. One of my first twitter memories😀
The fact that an almost 50 year old guy who can't write well would say this to a 15 year old teenager who's voicing her opinion is absolutely insane and disgusting. This is why we should rely on creators who care about the characters and their fandom
The first and last experience I had with Astruc was when I saw an old drawing Astruc made of Marinette as Ladybug with some of the past ladybug holders in the background. You can find it pretty easily just by searching on google. This was before I heard all the horror stories about this guy and so I innocently showed him the drawing and asked if he will do a drawing featuring Adrien as Cat Noir with his predecessors in the background too. He ended up blocking me for it. It was an interesting experience to say the least.😅
@@Theawesomeninja_XD I actually wanted his autograph along with the drawing too. I was just trying to test the waters to see if he will acknowledge me and take up the commission. I was very shy and did not want to engage with him directly but apparently he did and took my message the wrong way I guess. I was very eager to pay for it and have it shipped to my country. I suppose I dodged the bullet and saved alot of money huh?😊
Don't take it personally. There are times when he is getting spammed with so much hate, he probably just blocks without reading. Not great either way but he has to save his sanity somehow. I would have liked to see that drawing of chat too!
@@Demonsta i want to believe that but considering how he pretty much didn't give chat noir spotlight in few episode even if he did, chat noir will be an comedic relief. Thomas perspective of feminism is to bring man down while giving girls the spotlight
I think one of the things that make me hate him is his nonsensical beef with chloe, his own character, because shes is based on a childhood bully. Like ffs man, you made an abused and neglected child the devil. Imagine being a kid with parents like chloe, seeing a show that makes it seem like its your fault.
It’s pretty funny to think that the girl Chloe is based on is probably just out there living a normal life and Astruc is still so angry and hurt he made a fictional character named after her suffer just so he could “get back at her” years later. …I can see why she made fun of him. What a loser.
No es la primera vez qué algún escritor inserta a su maton de la infancia en su obra. Stephen King hizo lo mismo en "IT", J.K Rowling hizo lo mismo con Draco Malfoy y un largo etcétera.
To be honest, i was sad that Chole was Replaced with a Mary Sue, tbh, i knew I was going to hate her when she said she was sweet I think Chloe was the Sour the show needed and it basically so unbalanced that stopped it in Season 5
I feel like introducing Zoe was a bad call; if the whole point Austruc tried to make about Chloe’s failed redemption arc that you can’t have a good Chloe don’t then introduce Zoe because it undercuts the argument that Chloe not being good is necessary for the story because they literally introduced a character who is nothing more than Chloe but good.
Something I've always disliked is the "it's made for kids! It doesn’t have to be well written/written for you" stance because, well- I was a kid when I started watching this show. I got invested in Chloe's development. I wrote fanfiction of new villains for the show. I genuinely enjoyed it- but I still hated Chloe's failed redemption. I hated Marinette's stalkery ways, even if I liked her character. I hated how dumb some of the writing felt. I held most of the same critiques that adults in the fandom have held for years. Does my opinion not matter then, because it matches the opinion of those who "were not the target audience"?
Kids shouldn’t be subjugated to watching shows with horrible lessons when their brains are literally in the beginning of their formative years. Kids shouldn’t be held at a lower standard because you think they’re too stupid to understand a bad show when they see one, a children’s show should NEVER be created with that thought process in mind. With a sinister mindset like that, it makes you wonder why they’d even bother making a children’s show in the first damn place when you obviously don’t have their best interests in mind.
My favourite thing to think of when writing a character is, 'how many time does the description refer to the main character?', since that's how people will speak about them in fandoms and so forth. For example Alya, she does have a lot of personality but that can be put on the back burn because she is Marinette's 'yes man'. A majority of the time when people think of Alya they are thinking of Marinette's best friend. Literally a line in her wiki page personality is this: 'Alya is extremely loyal, supportive, helpful, and sometimes pushy, such as when she goes out of her way to encourage and (sometimes literally) push Marinette into spending time with Adrien.' A lot of the wikis just refer to her as a best friend of Marinette and fan of Lady Bug.
Miraculous is the one time I wanted a reboot so bad. It has a lot of wasted potential all because of a man baby who cant take criticism and wont let go of his issues.
there was a miraculous ladybug movie that was basically its own non-canon reset and despite its flaws, felt a lot better than the show if that counts? i heard thomas wasn't involved with the movie's production either but idk if thats just a rumour or not. i watched it on netflix a while ago and its visuals are so pretty compared to the show's too but thats because it has the budget of a movie. its literally called "Ladybug & Cat Noir: The Movie". It has songs in it too. Overall it was very fun and I think it perfectly fits what you’re describing and I’m glad Thomas had nothing to do with it if that’s true
So... Basically, Astruc INTENTIONALLY decided to make the message of Chloe's arc to be that bad people can never change and that bullies are monsters forever, regardless of their upbringing, in his KIDS SHOW??? What kind of message is that? "Sorry Susie, you bullied Patricia on the playground, guess you're a lost cause," what the heck!?
To fair that is a good message. Sometimes people in real life are just jerks and won't change dispite you wanting them to make good decisions. Life of like that sometimes.
@@Jellygirl313 No it's accurate. That's just life sometimes. There are bad people in the world and they threw in a little bit of reality. I doubt a child watched the show and became afraid to try to make friends.
@@Jellygirl313 Honestly everyone should be concerned about whether they are too mean to their friends. That is one of the things that keeps you from being mean to people.
@@icecreamhero2375 While it’s accurate in real life, this message could have been shown through Hawkmoth (or if we REALLY needed to show this through a teenager, Lila or Felix). The lesson falls apart with Chloe since Chloe WAS changing in S2. Things only went off track when Thomas came back into control in S3. The fact Thomas was so hellbent on portraying this lesson with Chloe EVEN THOUGH she technically didn’t fit the bill anymore is bizarre.
Speaking of pivoting, they missed a huge chance in season 4 with Nino’s character. Spoilers: When he was akumatized and almost killed Cat Noir, he went back to Nino with no guilt whatsoever. People proved time and time again that they still make their own choices when akumatized. I wanted him to have nightmares over the fact he nearly killed someone over an understanding. I wanted him to apologize to Alya that she saw him like that and strives to do better. And Adrien can stay friends with Nino because he knows who his best friend is, but to struggles to look at him after that incident. But nope, Ladybug saves the day and everything goes back to normal. Thanks astruc.
That's the issue of having the show structured in its current state. If I remember correctly they wanted to have the show be watched in any order with the exception of some episodes. This of course leads to an issue of certain arcs being completely dismissed and long-term ramifications removed.
My little sister loves this show and we talk about it a lot, She's 8 by the way. When she watched that season 3 finale she was so upset and keep questioned me on why Chloe became bad again. She asked: so are all bad people never change? They just hurt people again? And it made me really mad honestly, it is such a bad opinion to start forming at such a young age. If this show was aimed at older audiences that would be fine, after all with adult shows you don't need to spoon fed the reasons of why she did what she did to the audiences, But with this show.. They could've at least keep her redemption arc but show that she's stumbling a little bit.
@@mrenergy5364 I mean, they could replace Astruc with Zag to write for future seasons to try and soft fine tone and retool write fix whatever Astruc's writing might had ruined for the past first five seasons of the show thus far here
If the plot didn’t move as slow as it did I would have supported Chloe’s failed redemption since life is just like that sometimes but the plot did move slower than a snail and I’m still upset
Not to mention…It didn’t help any other character’s development (it actually made more characters worse) and Chloe wasn’t even all that affective as a villain. No one takes her seriously as a villain (not even the fandom-)
The problem with Chloe's arc isn't that they axed a redemption that Astruc already explained was never on the table to begin with, it's that the damnation arc was badly handled because they prioritised it being a rug-pull over writing it well. Yeah, Chloe was still consistently horrible throughout her fake redemption arc, off-setting her good moments, Astruc pointed out that there were plenty of red-flags for Chloe's betrayal. But the show itself trained us to ignore those red flags by hand-waving away her behaviour, the infamous train incident was forgotten about by the end of the episode and Chloe still got given the Bee after that despite doing nothing to earn her "second chance", as well as the characters commenting on how Chloe "could change". And then she just joins Hawkmoth completely with no scruples. And even after her "damnation", Chloe's betrayal goes completely unremarked on in the following season.
God Astruc ruins his own show so badly that he using personal ideas of his creepy behaviour like have one of the characters being named after his ex who's chinese and treats Marinette as his favourite daughter as he using trauma as an excuse for stalking behaviour. He so immature that his relies in twitter are so childish whenever there's chloe which he hate foe whatever reason. The movie was way better than his trainwreck of a show despite its own flaws.
@@OthandoSimamane-ss1xp Funny that he denying about it considering how much he hated her. He also said that's she more irredeemable than gabriel which is baffling to look like he did way awful things just to get his own dead wife back from the dead. Worst Marinette cover his horrible and made him a hero with a statue and even lie to Adrian about it rather than the truth. She is the worst superhero ever and a definition of corruption.
Miraculous ladybug has great potential but was never able to reach the great potential yet. Since Chloe’s redemption was written out, Luca was written out, Adrian constantly side line even against his own dad. Heck I wouldn’t be surprised to see the other heroes getting more screen time than Adrian in season six
People keep saying the redemption was written out when it was never planned to begin with. If the production schedule was week to week and they had gotten audience feedback in time they might have written it IN, but there was no redemption written in order for it to be written out. Why is the fandom so stubborn about this!
@@Demonsta So no writer in that studio had the hindsight of doubling back on Chloe’s redemption was a bad move. Or was that Thomas Austruck Purposely forced the writers to write against the tropes.
In my opinion, if a person who created a movie, TV show, novel, video game, etc etc it's their job to make sure their series have a coherent story, and makes sense for the audience to understand. However, one of my biggest problems with the Miraculous Ladybug series is that Thomas Astruc has made some illogical choices in terms of Miraculous's stories, writing, and characters. After season 2, there are some inconsistencies between seasons 3 through 5. Plus, I don't understand why he argues his fans when they ask him about some inconsistencies in the show. Weird.
The writer is nothing in front of the producer and diffusers... If you understand how things work in animation, many ideas are blocked and/or edited because the diffusers say so. In France when the series comes from, it's far harder to talk about dark topics than in the US. No wonder Emily was never confirmed to be dead until recently when some diffusers finally started to quit because of conflicts and more
All in all I think our distain for Tomas Ass-truc is justified, this man ruined western animation and is the reason why it’s considered “for kids” From ruining a charecter’s development just for vindication to hoisting his imaginary daughter on a podium and making her “flawless” He’s tarnished western animation and fine literature forever
I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. His writing and direction are poor but this is the first time I’ve ever heard this take from anyone. For every Miraculous Ladybug, there are plenty of shows and movies that remind people that animation can be just as much a piece of art than anything else. I don’t think he’s tarnished anything in terms of western animation. Besides maybe his own show 😅
@@foxpokemonforever4775 true , but all it takes is for one bad piece for people to compare other fine shows to it, there’s a reason why animation is stigmatised as a kids show and while never stated outright I think miraculous ladybug has a part to play I’ve seen my family cringe when I describe animation, and at least one of them called it kid like and talked about miraculous ladybug in the same regard . It’s so hard to make a good reputation for animation when there are so many bad ones holding it down
The "its for kids" defense pisses me off to no end. Like sure its made for a child audience but that doesn't mean it can't have good writing. I think as a kid this show would have made me made. I like over arching plots and character arcs and what not. i LOVE shows like avatar even as a kid. I didnt really watch it as i had trouble tuning in weekly. But thats not the point. The point is is the fact that this show horribly fumbles ever. single. plot. point. They seem to be unable to have a plot go on for more then one episode. The Chloe plot was the most egregious example but the one im personally most disappointed in is all the ones involving Adrien/Cat Noir. The fact that he was feeling unneeded in the team was brushed aside and easily forgiven. AND THEN THE LASTES EPISODE JUST TOSSED HIM ASIDED?!??! And now everyone in his life is keeping major secrets from him (something that is established as something he really hates people doing, especially if those secret involve him in some way). and this can only end bad but I dont think the writers will do anything with it. It seems like Adrien isnt a character but just an object for the heroes affections. If the roles were reversed the show would be destroyed online as sexist.
Yes not giving you what you wanted and having an average writting for a cartoon is so a crime. Those who bully him are heroes. I hope that he will be sent to prison for his crimes.
Dude, stop being so damn dramatic. You're giving him far too much credit, and it sounds like you don't really watch enough cartoons to even make that judgement
The main problem with Astruc is how combative he is about everything. He knows best, and no one else, not even Timothy Zag can do better or have more ideas that could benefit the show. A part of this has to do with the weird overly personal investment he has with his creation. Of course, every creator will be attached most of the time to their creations. It’s their baby, it’s understandable. But Astruc takes this to a whole new level with characters being based on people he has beef with. Marinette apparently being based on an imaginary child he wanted with his ex, Chloe being based on another ex’s child who he didn’t like, it’s all completely arrogant and tunnel visioned as if he’s somewhat using the show to cope with his own relationship issues which doesn’t make for good storytelling. That is personally why I think he is so combative with everyone, from the trolls to the legit critiques. As it all comes back to his mind as a personal attack on him because he has based the show on things he wanted or didn’t like in his own life. That personal attachment can drive someone mad, and it certainly has for Astruc.
@@MikeFireheart while Chloe was initially based on a childhood bully, the reason why she didn’t have a redemption was because Astruc saw an ex girlfriend’s child in her, and seemingly henceforth based her character on that kid who he didn’t like.
@@riotkitty Let me guess, he posted that on his twitter/X account? I wouldn't be surprised with how over half of the show's actual lore is just in his posts online. There's a reason that the actual show is so bare bones.
@@riotkitty I figured as much, the dude has more lore in those posts, than the show has had in 5 full seasons. It just shows how screwed up his priorities are.
Maybe they will even Chloe returns to Paris from London a changed person and wants to make up for her past mistakes that costed her everything before and she and him could somehow go from acquaintances to eventually lovers *OFF SCREEN*
Compare him to someone like Dan Povenmire. Not the best example because Phineas and Ferb is a far superior show to Miraculous and is long since finished but this guy's interaction with fans through TikTok and other platforms shows how clearly he was the person who made the show and how much passion he put into it. Or Tommy Andreasen, the showrunner of Ninjago. A show that isn't perfect either but has clear signs that the people behind it are listening to criticism and trying to improve with each season. Until they blow it and have to start from scratch. Astruc blows off criticism, acts very entitled and his improvements are the equivalent of fixing engines with tape. Marinette is a creepy stalker? Well, it's because of trauma I just made up and that creates even more plotholes.
To be fair Astruc doesn't have to listen to criticism if he doesn't want to. Although he is better off keeping his mouth shut rather than beefing with people.
Hopefully with out Astruc's hate boner for chole and all that rewrite the world thing they did in the last episode they can bring her back redemption arc in tack with her as queen bee and that knock off sister of hers can just stand in the background or something #justiceforchole
@@ashebennett7726 I know right they write a beautiful redemption arc for her that gets us to love her then this ass calls us idiots undoes the arc makes her worse adds a knockoff chole that has no personality yet everyone in the show just loves because she's not chole, and then writes her off the show in the meanest way possible trapping her forever with that awful mom of hers
@@Mebro-m6d my dude it can't be worse then what we got now pulse with last season ending on some kind of universe reset who knows it could work pretty well
@@ajmcomixonline8824 she was giving mary sue and he gives Marinette a pass because she's his favorite child apparently cuz she can't do no wrong except breaking into dude house sniffing his pillows nearly kissing him etc.
Main problem about from him being argumentative on twitter is how creepy he seems like how his main character for his show is based on the non-existent child between him and his ex more that allude me at the moment but it’s so creepy and weird
@@pantalaimon8433 Sometimes, the fandom tends to forget that Thomas can't control everything in his show. It takes a team effort to produce a show and sometimes, some plot decisions are all about the producers (Thomas doesn't produce the show; he partly writes and directs it) and the broadcasters decisions, like this is why it was never stated directly until recently that Emily really died. Many plot ideas were either blocked or heavily edited because of them (The Cat Blanc episode was supposed to be darker). I admit the show has its flaws and all but seriously, the fandom didn't realize how toxic they became because the show didn't turn the way they wanted.
@@pantalaimon8433 Definitely the second opinion. And concerning Marinette, I don't justify her stalking attitude but at the time when the show began, it was just an exaggerated comedy relief (I remember laughing like crazy because of that, as well as sometimes being annoyed), but as the fandom was more and more complaining about that (even though she was less stalking Adrien from season 3 until completely letting it go), my biggest guess was the Derision episode of season 5 was like: You have your excuse episode so leave us alone with that complain. Like they wanted to justify Marinette's actions by this episode to satisfy the fans who were and are still clearly making it a big deal. But seriously from my opinion, I didn't really like how paced and handled it was.
Another problem with Chloé's failed redemption is that it is, objectively speaking, Marinette's fault. And by "objectively", I mean that S3E25 goes out of its way to show that: when Marinette has to choose between taking Chloé's Miraculous or Kagami's to get help, she chooses the second one just because she was worried about Kagami and Adrienne being together, so basically the selfish and wrong choice; Master Fu asks her worriedly if she is sure about her choice, which never happened before, and later Kagami comments on how Ladybug had previously told her that she could never become a Miracle-holder again due to Hawk Moth knowing her identity - the same situation as Chloé's, showing that Marinette applied a double standard for her own gain. The problem is, from S3E26 onward, all of this gets completely ignored and all of the blame is put on Chloé. Not just that, but in S4-S5 all of the other heroes (including Kagami) _keep being heroes despite Hawk Moth having discovered their real identities_ (something he even takes advantage of in an episode), and the hypocrisy of that is never addressed if not with a single line - in an unrelated episode - that doesn't have any weigth. In fact, Marinette's character is the second most criticized thing when it comes to Austruc: the show is completely oblivious to when she does wrong, and the few times she's punished, it's for stuff she doesn't deserve to be punished for. It's as though Austruc wants to portray her as "perfect", but since she is a cartoon character, he sometimes throws a bone at the "mc makes mistake" aspect just for the sake of narrative tropes. Basically: either he's incompetent at character writing (which at this point I think there's more than enough ground to think), or he has just a huuuge Marinette bias (or both). The fact she's literally the OC insert of the imaginary child he would have liked to have with an old ex-girlfriend really doesn't help. Outside of his writing, though, there's another point that I hope will get talked about: how, despite all of the success his show got, Austruc keeps acting resentful for how it didn't go exactly down the route he wished for it. Initially, he pitched Miraculous as an animation, and many of his comments still reflect that. When the first movie got released, he acted as though fans wanting a movie was somehow detrimental or disrespectful of his work (a famous viral comment of him is "the movie is what you want, but the show is what you need"). Oh, and then there is how some episodes of Seasons 4 and 5 are deliberately written in order to attack some of the criticism made toward Austruc, to the point that a lot of them disregard previously-established events to such an illogical level that had never been displayed in previous seasons - and when confronted about those seasons' writing, most of his tweets come down to "It's just a kid's show, it doesn't need to be complicated" (actually, I recall one of his tweets literally being "It's just a kid's show, so who cares", though likely with a little different wording); basically showing how his interest is not even about tending to the show anymore, but just take it out on the fans out of spite for them.
Not to mention, it was Marinette who pushed Audrey to spend time with Chloe. While it seems like she did a good thing, I think Marinette screwed Chloe over, since Audrey isn't qualified to be a parent. While it's true Chloe was already like her mom, it may have been best if Chloe kept her distance from Audrey and accept her mother doesn't care for her.
I really liked this show. Introduced it to a friend. Discussed some of my disappointment about Chloe, and how there were some self inserts. He then proceeded to point out - the weirdness of his daughter figure being constantly tied up - the extremely high number of times children are tied up, gagged, put in compromising positions - the close ups during the transformation of the kids' bodies, and the "leather gimp suit" - the self insert of the director living out his humiliation kink So um... yeah. Kids show.
Sorry but... I think that's a you problem? Please stop looking at children sexually... Being tied up and gagged is just classic villain stuff dating back to the invention of superheroes. It is like the most innocent way to endanger civilians, like what do you want, depictions of torture? The main hero's tool is also a string, yet she ties people up less often than spider man. The transformations are referencing classic magical girl media and are already much less saucy than classics like sailor moon where you can tell even in silhouette that the teenage characters are fully nude; In miraculous they are never nude, the camera zooms and pans to show action and various parts of the costume, it never zooms or lingers on body parts that could be considered sexual. If you surround yourself with sexual content you will start to see it everywhere. Literally anything can be made to seem sexual if you have a mind to make it so. Sorry but you're projecting.
@@Demonsta reading comprehension isn't for everyone, it's ok. MY FRIEND who I introduced the show to pointed all this out to me because I didn't notice it. Once you see it it's difficult to ignore. Yes, there are some elements of animating where it's easier to design a body and lay it over with the pattern so you don't have to worry about loose clothing with it's own movements. But it was hard to defend a show that zooms in on a kid's vagina while she does splits.
Unfortunately, you hit the nail on the head for me. Despite my utter disgust for Chloe in Season 1 and part of Season 2, to the point where I nearly walked away when she got a Miraculous, I truly started to care about her and her struggles to be a hero. Marinette was...fine, as an MC (ignoring her very inappropriate behaviour before it further escalated) with her heroic drive, and Chloe felt a bit more human with her actively struggling to become a hero like her idol. It wasn't the most original story in the world, but it took a character I thought would never amount to anything and gave her a decent story arc that I enjoyed. And then of course, Miracle Queen happened. The worst part was that I still hoped things could be resolved. I still hoped that Chloe would see the error of her ways, prove herself, and become a hero again. Obviously as season 4 began it became clear that the writers were sticking to their choice, but even then I wasn't really mad. What can you do? Then Zoe appeared. Out of literally nowhere. To replace her sister. W. T. F. Few things have pissed me off more than this sudden, stupid, "half-sister" reveal. Nothing against Zoe as a character, but her existence offends me in ways I cannot fully express because it represents the abrupt death of something that felt good. It was one thing to introduce her in the first place, but to make her take up the Bee Miraculous as well? It just felt as if the writers were spitting in our faces. TL;DR - I despise the fact that Zoe was sloppily used to replace Chloe as the Bee Miraculous holder.
Code Lyoko showrunners: Once we realized that we had a show with a dedicated fanbase, we re-wrote the show bible for season 2 to give the fans more of what they liked about the show while still playing to our strengths. Thomas Astruc: Now you listen here, you little shits...
Thank you so very much for the reference! It's made me so incredibly happy, and I smiled a lot from this. I think it's such an underrated movie, and not many people talk about it.
One thing to note about Zoko's failed character arc is that his first redemption arc began with him giving up his original goal, which was to go back home. However, when he ultimately fails his first redemption, it is to achieve his original goal. This leads to the idea that he got what he wanted, but lost what he really needed, and the question is if it was worth it in the end. On the other hand, Chloe doesn't have a goal like this that could cause a sort of healed turn.
Chloe had a goal, to not be useless, to feel important to the people that matter to her specially her mother. But the show completely dropped that plot and turned her into mean for the sake of being mean. They don't even give her a particular interest; in one episode they said she was a gymnast but that's not mentioned anymore (that could've explained her 'friendship' with Kim). She tried to be an artist when she showed up with a collage of selfies, and after she quit the art teacher even pointed out to Alix that art beginners should be encouraged, not mocked, which is a good lesson for a kids' show, but again all of that is wasted.
@@riel4553That's my problem with Chloe's whole story; IT WASN'T HER FAULT. She only turns because Mari made her feel useless by refusing to trust her and Mari doesn't learn a gd thing from that failing. It would be one thing if Chloe did just flat out evil things but even in the last bit, she still was heroic because she did the right thing. Chloe's heel turn was forced on her by the bad choices of those around her and Thomas is expecting us to hate her when...no. No, I can't because she was fucked over by the bad choices of someone else and THAT IS NOT HER FAULT.
The idea that people who get paid to do a thing are automatically better than people who don’t is really dumb; but for creative jobs like writing it’s absurd. Creative industries like animation are notoriously difficult to get into, especially for people from lower income backgrounds. For jobs like these it can sometimes be more of a case of “who you know” instead of what you can do, where if you don’t know someone already in the industry who can vouch for you or help you get access to opportunities you can really struggle to get a foot in the door
I love how atla is ALWAYS the example of a good show, whatever video i watch that resembles on character arcs, the example of writing done well is always atla.
This shows could have a reboot NOT write by Astruc. Why not with an anime style like the original concept? Wouldn't it be cool to see Ladybug, Chat, Rena rouge and the others heroes in that animation? Gabriel would also looks nice plus the animators could put a lot of action and flashy colors. I would love to see that 😄
So basically Vivziepop with her own fandom in terms of "can't stop engaging with all of them when they are trying to use him as an outlet for their feelings", oops.
Except people keep defending Vivziepop like there's no tomorrow, because she at least has some redeeming qualities (of which I find to be highly irrelevant, to be honest) and because they make good points, I'm too scared to counterargue back, so I relent, but I know for a fact that she doesn't handle adult themes as tactfully as she thinks she does, because if it causes your fan base to be divided on an adult topic you wanted to cover, then you did a terrible job at handling it well, and that you should probably do more research next time, or wait until your brain is mature enough to handle these topics. Sometimes you try your best, but your best will never be good enough for everybody. That's what I tell myself anyway.
Honestly, with how the show is going, it feels like the fandom has applied “Death of the Original”; people are ignoring the show in favor of what the show could have been.
Would add that Zag makes very bad decisions on his own. Announcing projects that will never comes to fruition and selling parts of his rights to the series to a investor company.
I think turning your main character(who wasn’t supposed to be the only main character originally) into an obsessive stalker is one of the worst things Astruc did. Marinette was a creepy stalker for the first 4 seasons of the show. She did things that low-key made you sometimes relieved that Gabe was so strict to Adrien. If Gabe had known what Marinette had done in the past, he probably would’ve kept Adrien from Marinette simply because of how obsessed she was with his son. Marinette did tons of things worthy of a restraining order. I truly hate that Astruc used the episode derision to justify Marinette’s actions towards Adrien, even though PTSD symptoms in the DSM-5 don’t add up with Marinette’s actions in the past. I have tons of other things to say about my opinions on Thomas Astruc, but I feel like they would up an entire essay.
Agreed 100%, but the original French tittle of the show was "Miraculous Ladybug", it only changed after they translated the show into other languages, so Mari was always intended to be the one and true protagonist from the get-go.
Its one thing to never intend to change a character. thats your right as a writer, but it's kind of sucky to see people say they saw the seeds for an arc and to just say there were no seeds and people are reading into nothing. I understand the urge to message back, and if he still has the money, the show, and a stable life he's the one winning in the end, but I wonder if theres any criticism he ever accepted or if anyone online is just the enemy. I do feel bad for tomas though. It's super hard to get a show made, especially one this popular so he had to work hard or get lucky to get the opportunity. And I imagine constantly having that show torn apart would suck, but the way he responds about stuff makes it really easy to start seeing some of the other stuff (naming Marinettes parents after himself and his ex) in a muuuch weirder light. Butch Hartman put himself in fairly odd parents as "Dr.Rip Studwell" and I never questioned it as a kid, but now that Butch isn't well liked anymore people call that cringe/ arrogant. Tomas has TWO characters represent him. Stuff like that, and his response to naming a black character "Ghetto blaster" maybe came from a context that was wasnt nearly as bad as people assume, but it's hard to tell.
I remember an unfinished fanfiction named "Chloé's amnesia" made by otakufan375 where Chloé gets ducked on by Stoneheart-like Akuma and lose her memory. She becomes a nice and pure girl but her classmates as an hard time to cope with her. Also, flashes of memory surges to her brain and she risks to revert back to her bratty side. As the story advances, Chloé slowly realised what kind of horrible person she was and tries to make amends. She is helped by Marinette who tries to make her a very nice person, we see a very caring Marinette, almost motherly to Chloé. While Lila manipulates Alya to harm Chloé after the latter revealed that she is smooth-brain liar, ending the friendship between Marinette and Alya after a violent altercation. It's sad that the fanfiction is unfinished like too many but it shows that we can make something good with Chloé. You just have the willingness to do so unlike Thomas Astruc.
Honestly, the "this show is for kids!" excuse just doesnt work anymore. it's been out for almost a decade, so any kid who watched it on launch is now a teen. surely some new kids are still coming into the fandom, but with it being around for so long, a lot of the interactive fandom consists of teens and adults. i was a freshman in high school when this came out, just barely older than the characters myself. there comes a point where you need to realize that you cant make excuses. kids deserve good media just as much as us teens and young adults do. if they played their cards right, they couldve had another atla on their hands. the show people couldnt stop praising over a decade after it ended, and that was before there was ever the live action show. mlb had so much potential, but unfortunately mr astruc had to be the main person behind it... edit: minor spelling errors
Yeah! I was in sixth grade when it came out. I'm almost done with my freshman year of college. And another thing, there are many well written kids shows. Imo the excuse never worked in the first place.
I dislike how utterly incompetent hawkmoth is. Like I get the main characters need to win, but can you maybe have the villain at least be half way intelligent? How do you lose with literally every miraculous, including the one that literal lets you time travel. A literal child wins with absolute ease on their first try.
the "little girls" exscuse is just stuipid. I watched Miraculous season 1-2 when I was around third grade and I understood clohe change and struggels at the time. Kids are not idiots Thomas. Kids can understand a character's change or past struggles in shows like this or avatar or owl house or whatever children show with a story arc you can think of.
the ways chloe was handled will always piss me off and to insist chloe was never meant to be redeemed by giving us a ripoff literally named ZOE??? bro was rejected by a blonde girl in school and never moved on
I mean he stated that Chloe is based on a childhood bully he had. And refuses to see her anything else but that bully based on how he acts about it. One of many of his life experiences leeches into his work that poisons it. If only he looked to it as inspiration and not a point to vent. Look at his "daughter" in the show for more reason.
I don't think it was a bad idea to base Chloe off of one of his childhood bullies if it were a means for him to cope, but it devolved into pathetic revenge against a teenage girl who doesn't exist.
I was part of the OG fanbase when the very first episode dropped. In Korea. And then again in France. 😅 The fandom loved Astruc then. We called him Papa Papillon or Daddy Astruc. Then he continuously betrayed our trust with the way things were developing. Chloe was never allowed to be redeemed, Marinette was getting more stalker-ish by the minute, there were too many instances of _almost_ identity reveals that it got tiring. And that was _before_ Astruc started arguing with people on Twitter
Something i also noticed whatching the show next to the many other problems is how he makes literally everyone look bad to boost Marinette's reputation more. Characters are constantly written out of character to make Marinette look better.
Yeah, Thomas really needs to accept criticism and not be constantly defensive. However, the biggest problem I had with Chloe's arc, was how rushed it was. We had hints in season 1 about Chloe having a heart, but a few episodes into season 2 she is already getting an arc before the two main characters. It just reeks of no self-restraint and feels like multiple people were writing different parts of the show, resulting in a messed up quilt of a story. There's just no way it was planned from the start tbh.
I don’t know, it’s common for side characters to get growth first before main characters since the side character arcs don’t last too long. They wrap up so the main characters can get the over all big arc. Sometimes those arcs can build off of the main character as well, helping them grow along with the side characters. And idk if I agree with it being rushed. IF hypothetically, they went through with Chloe’s arch, we don’t know how long it would have lasted. To me, it seemed that Chloe was JUST starting to turn a corner. She still had a lot to go through, dealing with her mom/dad, dealing with being a hero, still dealing with unlearning her toxic behaviors. I think the pace that was happening was fine. But I do agree that it often feels like multiple people are pulling at the plot/narrative. It leads to inconsistent morals and character decisions.
@@redballoon9007 True, but the characters are usually supposed to develop around the same time, are they not? The way Miraculous went about it was having Marinette and Adrien stay relatively stagnant until the finale with the cheek kiss, while Chloe gets essentially an entire arch for her character throughout the season. You can argue they had love rivals, but that didn't really change the characters at all. It's Tales Of Ladybug & Cat Noir, not Tales of Chloe Bourgeois & The Dysfunctional Love Diamond. When I said rushed, I meant it felt like they sped to her arch specifically, without seeming to care about the two main characters that had yet to develop at all. They clearly had time to develop them as characters, but chose to specifically focus on Chloe for most of season 2. The only other character to get a backstory was Master Fu at the beginning, leaving 98% of the remaining cast without anything new to do. I personally think Chloe should've been more of a slow burn character, with a couple episodes each season developing her character. This way she would develop naturally from a bully to a friend/hero, not jump from one boat to another within the span of a few weeks if that. This is actually confirmed with all 5 seasons taking place around one year, not giving Chloe much time to develop naturally.
@@littlebabyman8494 True, however the love rivals didn't do much until season 3 and were immediately ejected from relevance around season 4. Season 2 had Kagami be a blank slate with attitude and fencing as her character, only to be dumped by Adrien after the double date in Frozer. Luka meanwhile, was pretty much friend zoned from the start and a blank slate outside being a musical therapist. In all honesty, the love rivals were just added for drama and the writers didn't even try with them.
@@MikeFireheart For professionals they needed to try harder. People came around to Kagami and Luka eventually, to the point where they saw the main characters getting with those two as the better option.
I don't usually mind seeing creators using their real-life experiences as inspiration for their stories, in fact, done right it can produce some of the best material. But if all you're taking from your past is regret and resentment you're eventually going to start alienating people.
That Guy said "Simpleman" was the funniest episode ever because it's meta. He also said "Backwarder" had the creative team constantly laughing. Both episodes are full of cringe and humiliation. Maybe it’s a French thing, but generally in the USA, we don't think someone made to look like an idiot is funny unless they deserved it. It's like Krusty once said, "The pie in the face gag is only funny when the sap's got dignity!" (Case in point, the Three Stooges.) Marinette embarrassing herself all the time isn’t funny, it's sad. Then there's the fact that they backtracked and said she acts like a creep because of PTSD.
Thomas gets petty whenever people bring up Felix or Chloe. I liked Felix when know about him in the PV & him saying that Felix can’t make the show interesting or not be a good love interest is wrong. It’s sad that he fights & blocks the fans especially when they give back criticism to make the show better. Yeah he did release this show & have so much scripts for more of the world but wish he wouldn’t be a man child. The Miraculous NY comic is so cringe & how he tried to defend that 1 stripe. It’s strange that he has Sabine who is named from his ex girlfriend & Marinette is their daughter so you can see the favoritism. Seeing Zag & Jeremy take over at times does show that it does have potential. The only thing I like from Thomas is that he wants the series to be made into a anime like it was originally planned with dark themes & a Reverse World Series. For those I hope they can make it aim towards young adults. Since he posted that the fans need to show to the companies what we want.
Speaking of Felix and Chloe, I hope they have kinda of a somewhat rivalry with each other when she returns from his home town of London and back to Paris a changed person while trying to tell everyone that Felix should not be trusted so easily and everyone has a hard time believing her kinda like with something similar to like with Marinette and Cerise who she only knew then as Lila before
@@littlebabyman8494 Let's hope she will when Jeremy Zag writes for future seasons of the show now and it isn't just a cop out just to let Astruc return to write again instead
Having a self insert of yourself in a KIDS SHOW (or any for that matter) that has an episode centered around “not getting appreciated or overlooked” is so so soooo narcissistic and gross. His inability to take criticism on top of that just makes him so unlikable. No he shouldn’t have to change everything or even listen to fans, but there are points where a creator should listen to them. Especially when it’s something that they want to where it would only make his show better such as more screen time for certain characters. He also just plainly lacks the knowledge for writing in general, because stalking is not a cute trait. It was funny for a bit but progressing over the seasons for so long it’s tiring and obsessive. You can write a good character like Marinette and improve upon her. He simply cannot write
“In the end it’s a tv show, is it worth the harassment of someone else?” Smart man! I agree with your points. The show needs better writing but I mean why argue over it.
As a a girl who was a tween when this show hit main stream, i genuinely couldnt and cant stand it. How am i supposed to like a show when the mc is such a creep AND shes irritating. I think Thomas is WAY too obsessed with marionette for this show to feel cohesive in its plotpoints, but im not gonna lie it mainly because i cant stand marionettes "im just a baby tho 🥺🥺" personality😤🙃
To me, whenever a show runner, says something like. It’s a kids show, it’s not meant to be deep or complex. It always implies to me, that they don’t want to work as hard, or put in much effort. And even back in the mid 2010s, I feel like, we had already moved on from kids shows just being simple kidy sh*t. Of course avatar the last air bender is the G.O.A.T, but I want to highlight my little pony friendship is magic. Definitely a top 5 cartoon of the 2010s. The driving force behind the show’s staff, was to not make a girly show, were everything is solved with tea and giggles. They wanted to make a show that everyone enjoyed. Having the characters go on adventures and quests, exploring the world, and having some slice of life episodes here and there. And when the show had a surprising audience of mostly adults, they catered to them, and introduced more locations, more races, and even some mythology about the world. They could have put in less effort, and made a simple kids show. But they wanted to make the world more complex and interesting. Which resulted in one of the biggest cartoons of the 2010s, and it lasting for 9 seasons, and a whole decade. People are leaving the miraculous fandom, and the show, because it’s been doing the same boring sh*t, that’s it’s been doing, since 2015, and if Tomas doesn’t do something in the next season, that really, and I mean really gets people’s interest back into the show. It’s going to suffer diminishing returns. TLDR: shows that make themselves interesting, last longer, and get better reception from fans, critics, and the general audience.
Yeah... plus most of the time was wasted to make his point "valid" of Chloé being the worst... While not making more interisting comeback for the show. He ruined his own show...
His comments on Chloe are what made me second guess him. I mean he put in the work to set up a redemption for her that seemed to go so well and made her far more interesting, then does a 180 and digs his feet in the ground saying ‘psyche! She’s still bad and will remain so’. If she was meant to be a villain the whole time, why devote episodes to show her redemption even being one of the first to resist hawkmoth’s akuma, only for him to have her turn into an even worse version of herself? I know all artists have their own visions and reasons for certain story beats that maybe fans don’t have the right take on, but his treatment of Chloe was such a waste and what made me give up on the show
Also, my take on Chloé like I have done a long time ago in another of your video, Smarty. But this time a bit more darker and depressing after reflection and a few episodes of Season 2 rewatched. When I saw Chloé's sensitive side in Season 2. I could see that she is depressed inside of her but she tries to hide it in her bratty side. On this base, this is how Chloé character development could have happened: In Season 3, as Chloé is seeing Adrien drifting more to Kagami, she desperatly tries to hold him back since he is the closest thing (after Sabrina) to ressemble as a trustful friend. Chloé's bipolarity is slowly reaching her breaking point, she is becoming more and more frustrated and enraged on herself. It worries Sabrina but Chloé refuses her help as she becomes isolated. Marinette who has first dismissed Chloé state, seeing her as more annoying than usual could see that something is wrong with her. As she observes, Chloé becomes more and more uncontrollably frustrated, isolated, enraged and desperate. This attitude worries our protagonist and she tries to help the blonde, especially after the advice of Tikki to make sure that Hawkmoth doesn't try to possess her, but Chloé rejects Marinette's help. Lila seeing that Chloé is on the brink will seize this opportunity to utterly broke her, eliminating a rival to reach Adrien. This is a situation like in the Miraculeur episode with a few differences: Ladybug tells Cat Noir about Chloé's worrying behavior and the latter advice her to talk immediately to the blonde as Ladybug, since Chloé only listen to her. Lila lies to Chloé that Ladybug will come to her in the next Akumatisation, as Chloé cling desperatly on this last hope, now very anxious and panicked. But as the Sugar Sentimonster attacks, our Super-hero duo doesn't have the time to talk to Chloé. As Chloé realised that Lila lied to her and that Ladybug didn't come back with the Bee Miraculous. Chloé simply snapped. She quickly switches from mad laugh, to rage state and tears of despair, convinced now that nobody will save her; all under the shock of a Sabrina who has hard time to understand what is happening. Hawkmoth seize this occasion to Akumatise her, to the horror of our duo, realised they have arrived too late. After a fight against a completely lunatic and mad akumatized Chloé. When Ladybug frees her and tries to reassure her, it is already too late. Chloé has broken and she is just now a void, hopeless husk of her former self. As Sabrina reveals to both heroes that it was Lila who has been telling the lie, Adrien decided he has enough and confronts Lila about her lie, along with Marinette who was furious to see Lila making such a d*ck move (or [Redacted] move since Lila is a girl). Now cornered, Adrien says to Lila that he will never, NEVER love a liar who has make his friend broke. While Marinette makes herself the mission to reveal to the classmates how much of a b*tch Lila is. Chloé on her side is inside of the hotel, alone, inside of the void of her own hopelessness. She doesn't react to her environnement. After a few days, she resumes her "life" by coming back at school. But she is apathic, unresponsive and doesn't react to the acts of her classmates who tries to get something from her. Miss Bustier (which I make her a bit of expert in psychology in this story) says to her students that Chloé is in a phase where her mind tries to cope with this depression state. To try to get her back, the classmates has to bring her in numerous activities, if Chloé does something, they have to always respond with the affirmative, etc. Until Chloé reach a quite stable state of mind again. Between Akumatisations, flirts and other things. Chloé slowly exits the void. Participating more and more to the activities with her classmates but especially Marinette. As the end of Season 3 approaches, Chloé finally open her heart to her classmates about her issues, while making a heartfelt apology to her classmates to have been such a brat. And so, they forgive her, who gives hope back to Chloé. The blonde clumsily tries to remake ties with her new large group of friends. But now, she doesn't dare to get angry or try to give her opinion, since she is afraid to fall back in her bratty side. But the tide turn for her in the showdown of Season 3 in two parts: First, when her mom comes back. Chloé realise how horrible her parents are. When Audrey tries to order her around like usual, Chloé snapped and liberate all her rage against her parents, saying that she hates them to make her life so miserable. Audrey is pissed to see Chloé lashing out against her and beat her up, calling her a failure while André is too cowardly to intervene. Audrey is taken in custody while Chloé is placed away. Despite her injuries, Chloé feel free from a weight and she is someone new, more confident on herself and happy. A few days later, Hawkmoth tries to coerce Chloé in his cause but Chloé punch him as a response since he is the one to have taken advantage of her state. Hawkmoth, furious to have been punched out by a little girl, takes her as a hostage and use her as leverage to try to get the Miraculous Box. Our group of heroes arrive in a trial to save her but Cat Noir has another idea, he tosses the Bee Mirauculous, Chloé catches it and become Queen Bee again. After a rude fight, Hawkmoth barely manage to escape by the help of Mayura. After the fight, Ladybug proposed to Chloé to take back her role of Queen Bee, seeing it that she deserved it now. But the blonde girl refuses, because she cannot wear a costume already stained of her past mistakes. Also, she cannot follow the role of super-hero anymore since she has learned the morning of Hawkmoth's attack that she will join a boarding school since now that her parents has lost custody of her. So, this is heartfelt goodbye to Ladybug. In the civilian part, Chloé leave for the boarding school. Even if it's still inside Paris, she won't be able to see much of her classmates but she is still close them now she has their numeros. This is how Season 3 ends in my canon. Chloé will be absent for the most part of Season 4 while Zoe, her sister joins her in the boarding school after decision of the tribunes since Audrey has also lost custody of Zoe. Here, the Season 4 will still present Zoe as the new Queen Bee or Vesperia, but also, the complicated relationship between the two sisters. As a Chloé who tries with clumsiness to adjust with her new life while helping Zoé in her role as a super-hero, Zoé on her side tries to approach Chloé as she let go her mask of bratiness she always wore while trying to integrate the group of Chloé's friends. For Season 5... I didn't reflected much yet, since I have no idea. But hey, what do you think?
I don’t think the failed redemption arc for Chloe was planned and was last minute when Thomas saw they were making Chloe sympathetic and redeeming her and since she is apparently based off his bully Thomas probably just didn’t want to comprehend or think that there is much more going on with his bully that he doesn’t want to think about
I seriously don't like Astruc.. like bro cannnot handle criticism that his show is bad and needs improvement. Goes so far to prove a point that he literally character assassinates Chole cause she was based on his school bully. Like instead of promoting a positive message to kids that one can still try to change for the good even if their actions weren't good as long as they put effort in it, he instead proves that people can't change. Chole is a child so I think her changing for the better would have been a good message from the show. Astruc calls out on the fans for being sexist if they question why Marinette is the mc instead of Adrien despite said fans giving valid points. However, giving death threats to him is just horrible so at least I an give him that
@@redballoon9007 Yeah, why didn't they use Lila? The message could have been people can change but some people don't want to. And Lila didn't show any sign of wanting redemption.
I mostly find it sad aswell because in my opinion, Astruc originally was a good writer and had a good plan for the show, but after getting lots of hate after Chloe's redemption arc he purposefully made the show everything the fans didn't want as a kind of revenge and if that is true thats just really really sad because the show could have been so good.
To me the problem with miraculous ladybug is that the writers spend too much time trying to build up the romance between Adrien and Marinette when actuality they should have been spending most of their time trying to build up more of the hawk moth versus the heroes ark rather than focus on a relationship between teenagers because in my opinion the whole ark between cat noir ladybug and hawk moth felt more like a secondary plot compared to the big romance plot between our main heroes which ended up fumbling in the last season because it wasn't put together properly what the creators should have done was put the romance as a secondary plot and focus a little bit more on hawk moth versus ladybug and cat noir as the main plot but now Astruc has to be obsessed with a romance between children
S2 is the peak miraculous season, everything went downhill afterwards Chloe got a development arc, Luka and Adrien are actual character, Marinette is simping but not stalking
I watched the show up to Season 3 then I dropped out for two reasons. The first was the downfall/relapse of Chloe, and the second one was the downplaying of setups of season 2 for the sake of the sacred Status Quo. In my opinion, Astruc never wanted Chloe to have a redemption arc, that was something pushed by other people (probably Jeremy Zag) which explains why she became downright sociopathic in Season 4 onwards. I believe that Lila was meant to take Chloe's place as the school bully after she became an anti-heroine or something, but Astruc vetoed that, explaining why Lila had very sporatic appearances throughtout season 3 and 4.
1:20 I think this one of the few exceptions where the fanfics, the actually thought-out ones that aren't just a series of thousand-word ship happy oneshots on AO3, generally seem to be more consistent with characterization, and plot progression than the actual source material.
I think what makes the Chloe arc so awful in the eyes of the fans is that they basically introduced the 'final result' of her redemption, as a separate character, in Zoe. Granted, I love Zoe, and I think they could have still introduced her at a later time and explored a positive sibling relationship, but Chloe could have been redeemed still. Besides. They give some very minor characters Miraculous, if they still wanted to give Zoe a Miraculous, or to make Vesperia, they could have written one of the Miraculous for Chloe instead. Could have made for an interesting arc. Chloe's redemption was by far one of the best parts of the show until they ruined it.
Can't get past the fact Marinette is based on the child he never had with his ex
I'm sorry what
@njivwathomassilavwe2056 yes it's true and the dad is named after himself which is creepy.
@@RedDeadSpider343 What a weird ass, who does that?
Huh? 😳
@@RedDeadSpider343 both parents actually. Sabine is the name of his ex, just to add more spice to the hell soup this is
To me the most annoying thing Astruc has done is completely ignore criticism from the fans. When we want more focus on Adrien, he’s removed from the final battle. When we want a Chloe redemption, she becomes as irritating and as cruel as Astruc can make her. His refusal to improve his characters really put me off the show
Also when asked to tone down Marinette’s creepiness he makes the other characters dumb and accepting of it
Exactly, her creepiness in the statue scene is also the reason adrien fell for marinette, I just find that really uncomfortable
@@langdonledwig3734 I agree, even Kagami said in season 4 that Marinette was meant for Adrien because she knew everything about him, Astruc really hates listening to his fans
@@_MyNameIsAJ_ Yup, I maybe wouldn't have minded taking that long if the writers had bothered on developing their friendship, then romantic feelings but nope, its all rushed into one season.
Also they add a new character Zoe who is just a Chloe replacement. Or a way to work around not giving Chloe a redemption arc. It’s amazing that Akechi from persona 5 is better handled than Chloe.
One thing that just… really highlights how immature this guy is was when the movie was released. Most creators would be PUMPED if their show got a critically acclaimed animated film.
Not Astruc.
He proceeded to have a full blown TANTRUM about it any time someone brought it up to him. Swearing up and down, left and right, diagonally, back to front that the movie gave us what we want… but the show gives us what we need? What, you mean character assassination, a plot that’s flown so far off the rails it’s escaped orbit, and an unhealthy main romance that’s completely ECLIPSED the entire premise of the show? That’s what we need, Thomas? Seriously?
I swear, I have never seen a creator that is so… for lack of a better word, _ungrateful_ for their success. Thomas frequently picks fights with his fans, insults them, talks down to them, laughs at fan concepts, and just overall acts as much of a spoiled brat as Chloe sometimes. Which is ironic, all things considered.
Wait he got mad at the movie? 😅 that’s insane I didn’t think I would see someone pull a Roosterteeth and be petty towards other adaptions of their works that they weren’t involved in.
@@riotkitty Yep. He got mad at the movie. I think that’s the first time I’ve seen a creator get mad at something successful in their IP.
@@riotkitty "The movie gives you what you want, the show gives you what you need."
-Thomas Astruc-
His ego is so large that he thinks he KNOWS what people need.
@@Winter-HeroI…wow. That is one of the most narcissistic things I’ve ever heard Astruc say.
@@riotkitty He shot himself right in the foot, yet his ego is so large that he wasn't even realizing it
Duh! Why do you think people consume entertainment?! They don't need it, they want it.
Because he’s a weirdo who has an odd fixation on hating Chloé. The end.
I think it was less "hating on Chloe" and more getting really petty about the amount of love Chloe received from the fandom. No one can hate their own character that much unless there's other factors involved, like obnoxious fans insisting they know more about the character he created than he does. (Though, that's partially his fault by allowing the fans to constantly scream into his ear about Chloe instead of setting his Twitter to private.)
He's just too lazy to actually make new creative triggers other than Cloé, honestly I think he works by the ''if the formula works why change it''
@@CjJLXxR ong it's getting freaking boring now like you can't make me hate her much as I hate Mari she makes her look like a saint she has done worse crimes then chloe she needs to be in jail
His odd fixation for hating Chloe is because he was bullied by girls like Chloe.
I was really hoping for a nice Chloe in the tales of Shadybug and Claw Noir special because they turned Gabriel nice but nooo :(
It’s creepy how he thinks stalking is a personality trait and not a mental illness.
I think they raised that man with Pepe Lepeu* episodes on loop.
This would be my primary criticism of this show from what I know about it. If it's meant to be for children, then this type of behavior should not be shown to them and perceived as love or affection.
@@chaliceflame1314 My primary criticism is the idea that your relationship can be built on toxic lies about abusive parents. I’m sorry, I’m not forgiving Marinette for that.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 omg when did that happen ? (i forgot everything ab the show, can u break it down for me ?) 😭😭
@@nynys4940spoiler alert:
Basically in the season 5 finale mari and gabriel fight (while adrien is locked up), gabriel gets the miraculouses and makes the wish, sacrificing himself to bring nathalie (after she died due to using the peacock miraculous) back so she can take care of adrien. In the aftermath mari lies to everyone and especially adrien that hawkmoth and gabriel are two different people so adrian can live in peace. Plus the show glorified gabriel as hero with complete disregard to his misdeeds that he has done throughout the series which was just gross!
guy: what is your favorite show?
Me: Mlb
guy: Is it good?
Me: No😔
Yup this about sums it up😅
It's trash but it's OUR trash
It has good factors and bad factors. It is your favourite show that mean obviously it's made you to like it.Btw I have kind of love hate relationship with this show 👁️👅👁️
i hate that it had to come to this
It’s just one of those weird not good shows you still watch for whatever reason
Also i'm not buying the thing about "Chloe was never planned to change" because then why was Queen Bee in *all* the marketing? I actually believe the theory that Jeremy Zag liked chloe and was more involved during the first two seasons, and after he left to work on the movie, Thomas had full control and did all in his power to dethrone the queen. After all, if she was never supposed to be the "true" bee holder, why only introduce Zoe after chloe's downfall? Hell, before she was never even alluded to existing.. also chloe's writing in general feels completely different. Even in season one, she was a fun character who felt like a person. Post season four she's just this walking charicature. She doesn't have any redeemimg traits and we're constsntly reminfed by other characters that we're supposed to hate her and how nothing excuses her behaviour. A real shame.. i am confident that she'll get her glorious return in awakening 2 tho
It's possible that Astruc has always liked the concept of the Bee hero. Afterall, a concept Bee hero is in the new shows promotional poster for Zag Heroez alongside Ladybug instead of Chat Noir (and she doesn't look like concept-Chloe). So, Queen Bee was at the forefront of marketing because Astruc wanted a Bee hero there rather than wanting Chloe there specifically.
And Zoe only getting introduced after Chloe's fall instead of ahead of time could possibly be down to just bad writing. (These are the same writers that stuffed the final four hero debuts into the grand team-up episode after all.)
Even Chloe's civilian outfit is very bee-like.
I also don't understand why a character that was never meant to be redeem has their own doll and merchandise?
@@PrincessaBea I mean sure, it's nice to have villain merch.... but things about everything they did with Chloe doesn't add up properly.
@@DigiVixen exactly.. especially Zag pushed her a whole lot. There's so much Art of all the "Zag Heroez" with characters of his other Shows no one watched or never came out like the Ghost Force, Zak Storm, Pixie Girl etc. And the miraculous representation consists of LB, CN AND Queen Bee. She's always there! Even without Rena Rouge or Carapace. Besides.. afaik there aren't any Hawk Moth or Mayura dolls..
I hate the “it’s a kid’s show” argument. I usually see that being used to justify bad/lazy writing. It implies that children don’t deserve well written stories. It’s especially irritating when they constantly drop the ball when introducing and using toxic topics. There is a certain level of responsibility when doing kid shows because children tend to be not as equipped as teens and adults to understand the nuances and subtleties and separate fiction from reality as easily (even adults have problems doing that and I think that’s due to the decline in using critical thinking skills, but that’s another topic). Not to say Miraculous has any of that or does it well; it’s as subtle as a bull in a China shop.
Well if you ask me the show grows with us. My sister was 7 when it came out she's in high school and the show grows with it. She and her friends who were grew out of it and I started same Era and continued after it grew more the stakes
"It's a kid's show" is almost never used as a genuine defence.
When a show is good, it's "an example of how children's content can be more than for just children, mature, tackle difficult themes, etc." But as soon as that show does something like have poor character development or have a bad theme, suddenly it's "just a kid's show" and everyone pointing out the issues are "overthinking a show meant for kids".
It's a double-standard all focused on defending the show they like without putting any thought into it.
Thank you! I’ve been saying this for a long time now and honestly hate and get annoyed at the amount of people who always use the “it’s for kids” argument to shield a badly written movie or show from criticism. And I often get that whenever I criticize the bad writing on these bad live action Sonic movies.
For real! And the thing is, there's plenty of well written kids shows so this excuse doesn't even work!
@@blueraccoon1088 Honestly, I haven’t been in the fandom for very long, and I watched the show in a smaller time frame. As the show went on, the characters have gotten MORE naive. As mentioned before, the darker topics they do bring in aren’t handled with the sensitivity, respect, time and nuances that they REQUIRE to be written well, like with Marinette’s supposed trauma. It was dropped almost as quickly as it was introduced, and is very inconsistent. Which sucks because I was really looking forward to her being more fleshed out and developed as a character. The presence of dark topics doesn’t necessarily reflect the maturity of the show/characters.
I have A LOT of issues with how Chloe’s character was handled. But I think the most insulting thing was Andre. How the HELL is the show going to try and convince me that Andre is 100% innocent in the whole ordeal. He’s treated as if Chloe was the one abusing him even though HE was the neglectful and spineless father who only started to really step up due to his sudden care for Zoe. And he didn’t even try to connect with Chloe after Zoe’s introduction. He just disowns her and adopts Zoe (Mr. Lee be damned.)
Like no, of course I’m not going to have sympathy for Andre. He and Andrey share the blame for being terrible parents! But the show never sees the situation as such. And that gets on my nerves.
Apparently sending kids to therapy doesn't exist in the ML universe.
For me Andre is person who is also a victim of Audrey's behavior, but is also ignorant of actually showing true guidance and discipline. He is a doormat.
He does try to appease both Audrey and Chloe's desires quite often. That's what he views as "parenting".
But it is terrible. He is an enabler. Maybe that's his way of coping with Audrey's behavior.
You can make the argument that he is in an abusive relationship and that he copes by trying to fulfill Audrey's and Chloe's desires. There are plenty of relationships out there where people stay with their abusive partners and find ways of coping that aren't healthy. In reality Andre should have cut Audrey out years ago, but it hasn't hit him to do that. That's fairly common with abusive relationships.
He just feeds into their bad habits. He also has loose morals on what he does and is corrupt in how he exercises his power. He enables Chloe plenty of times by using his position as mayor.
The thing is that while he does abuse his position, he does so for Chloe's desires because he thinks that is the way to make her happy and raise her. But that is the wrong direction.
Andre does seem to care for Chloe, but his way of raising her is not a good one.
Audrey is a lost cause.
What I would have wanted is for Andre to stand up for himself against Audrey and cut her out of his life. Then take accountability for his failure in raising Chloe. That means stopping her bad habits and actually establishing boundaries. He can show a good example by actually taking his position seriously and not abusing his power.
What the show did in which he just disowns Chloe, takes no responsibility for his role in turning her into this state, and sends her off to live with Audrey was frankly disgusting.
@@Justin-ui5ti Not only establishing boundaries but actually engaging with Chloe and loving her. If bro actually had the power to quit being mayor at anytime (as seen in S5) then he literally has NO excuse as to why he was so neglectful towards her.
@@Justin-ui5ti Disowning your own child cause YOU raised them wrong sounds like such a massive- Ok, I’ll be serious.
What the fuck were they thinking? Andre would get away with the shit he enabled and practically taught his own daughter? The whole thing with smearing your opponent? SHE GOT FROM HIM! He’s not just neglectful, he’s a bad influence!
@@Justin-ui5tiyy_
What makes Chloe's failed redemption suck even more is that Lila exists. She easily could've been the spiteful brat that Chloe was but a lot more nasty and irredeemable with Chloe thinking "Wow, I could've stayed like this and my life would've just been worse off."
A proper Chloe redemption (at least to me):
-Chloe bedding her relationship with Sabrina (remember Antibug from season 1? I know Astruc doesn't, but remember we saw Chloe and Sabrina cosplaying as Ladybug and Cat Noir and just having fun together? They even slept near each other, giving hints that they really are close friends?
-Ms. Bustier adopting Chloe as her daughter, giving her the positive mother figure she never had.
-The butler (don't remember his name) being Chloe's father figure since her real one is spineless and as shown in season 5, would just abandon her for the "better one" despite it being at fault for Chloe's behavior as much as Chloe's mom.
-Chloe being an Anti-Hero who is more willing to do underhanded things in order to stop Hawk Moth and find out his identity.
A bit late but exactly! Lila exists so there is already a character who is evil just for the sake of it (almost unbealivably so like there is no way a teenage girl pulls a triple life or wtv) So having a character that changes for the better and evolves would have been nice. Like in shows (for example) BSD, you have characters like Akutagawa who are evil and have done horrible things, they have backstories that explain WHY do they do it, and they eventually start to improve themselves for the better! But you also have pure evil characters like Fyodor, Shibuzawa and Mori.
Any good story needs a balance in characters, you just cant have evil characters that are a carbon copy of each other. Plus having hawk moth semi-redeemed and chlore villianized to hell and back is just stupid.
Your idea for Miss. Bustier and the butler is really good! I would love to see that on a fic,
I always liked the idea (kinda my headcanon I guess) that Chloe did "steal" the bee miraculous and become a third party, an enemy to Hawk Moth but not necessarily an ally to Ladybug (since they want to get the bee miraculous back) and as Queen Bee went on, she learned being a hero is more than fame and glory, but the rewarding feeling of helping others, etc.
Also, Marinette's whole thing about "you can't be Queen Bee again because Hawk Moth knows your identity" is complete BS because he also knows everybody else's identity (and she knows he knows) yet she still gave out the other miraculous like halloween candy to the same people over and over, and made even worse when in Kuro Neko we see that the new holder of the cat miraculous after Chat Noir quit ... is just Adrien again but with a different costume.
"the butler (don't remember his name)" lmao neither does chloe
oh my God i would die for the things u said to happen, her having ms Bustier as a mom would make me cry of joy, but instead he made her say awful shit a teacher should never say to a kid...
watch lila get redeemed but not chloe 😭😭
i wouldnt be surprised if kagamis mom will get redeemed
Imagine how this show would be if the creator actually accepted criticism and used it to improve his work, you know, like good writers.
Or at the least be polite to people offering criticism?
@@chaliceflame1314 If I get constantly cyber bullied by over exaggerating fans (the man has his flaws but we're on Twitter, when you can receive all the hate of the world for basically nothing), how am I supposed to handle them?
@@justaguy263 Ignore them obviously.
Never be afraid to listen to your critics. But always, always, ignore the haters.
@@oreotaku4017 This show has obviously more haters than people wanting to "fix it"
Are we sure that Tomas Astruc hasn’t secretly been Andrew Dobson all this time. 😅
Thomas has the "I still haven't let go of things from High School" energy. Like, his ego totally lead to the mishandling of Chloe as a Character. Like, if Chloe's 1-Dimensional and "Evil for Evil's Sake" then don't give her an emotionally abusive Mother. Like, let's be real, Chloe was meant to be Queen Bee, look at her Civilian Outfit, even to this day she rocks the Queen Bee Patterns/Color-Scheme. She was on her way to being an Anti-Hero, learning from her mistakes, given a chance to change by Ladybug. Like in the episode where she almost yanked Mayura's Miraculous in Miracular, like, she was a team player, she was changing for the better. Reform by being given a chance to reform. People aren't chiseled in stone, I've seen good people turn bad, and bad people grow & transform into good people. And let's be real, Marinette was the Catalyst for Chloe reverting to her old ways and becoming worse, because the one avenue where Chloe could embetter herself (The Miraculous) was suddenly yanked from her because "People knew her identity" but she'd give Kagami & others with revealed identities still have theirs. She was on the sidelines begging to help, begging to get in the game, and for no good reason got shut out by Ladybug. If anything Thomas ended up making Marinette a hypocrite. I don't like how he massacred Chloe, I hope one day they correct course with her, have her hit rock bottom & build herself up. Otherwise the point of the show is "Never let people change, never let them grow, never forgive"
the last sentence is truly summarize the meaning of miraculous unless if you're bootlicking someone like Marinette no matter what kind awful things that little shit have done
I still can't believe that, when she had the chance to make things better between herself and Chloé, Marinette instead basically says, "You're only good at being a terrible person, just like your mother."
And yet she's surprised when Chloé starts to act even worse. Anyone else would've looked a a child asking, "Why don't you love me, Mom?" and said that a child shouldn't have to earn the love of a parent. For crying out loud, Chicken Little is one of the least liked films in the Disney animated canon, and it did that message better. But oh no, it's all Chloé’s fault. How can you blame her parents? It's not like that was the running theme in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. Even her half-sister who came out of nowhere and said she'd always love her no matter what had nothing to say by the end. Nope, every abusive parent in the show had good reasons to do so, except Colt Fathom who we never meet.
Also, the whole "you can't be a hero anymore because everyone knows your identity" argument has a solution that was later revealed in kuro neko where it was revealed that a hero can change his suit and identity by changing his behavior, and that would've worked very well with chloe's character and redemption arc because in order for her to stay a hero, she needs to act nicer to get a new identity.
Reminds me of this gem from Kim Possible.
Ron: Blah, blah, blah, complain, complain, complain. You know, when life gives you lemons.....
Dr Drakkon: I COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LEMONS!
@@usernotfound_____yet I personally have an idea for an AU scenario;
Imagine Pollen went away without a word to find Chloe as to not abandon her ‚queen‘ and helping her to become a proper ‚queen‘.
Chloe‘s alternative her identity would be ‚Humble Bee‘ (bumblebee and humble) so that Chloe can get a chance to make things right, like Pollen saw that Chloe has potential to be very ‚special‘, but that she has still to prove to be worthy for a hero.
Humble Bee is a version of Chloe who is willing to change for the better and having the desire to be a hero, but that she learns to become a better person to be a better hero, aka getting off her imaginary high horse to reach her goal.
Chloe would be an ideal tertiary protagonist who often assists Ladybug and Chat Noir in particular situations where they need to incapacitate villains.
Another nice add-on is that Pollen is willing to serve her ‚queen‘ Chloe only if Chloe learns to better herself for her own sake as Chloe has self-worth problems and thus her bullying others is just a vent to distract herself for not having a talent; this could align very well of why she makes fun of Marinette constantly aside from Adrien, she sees how Marinette is loved by everyone while Chloe has none.
This could lead to Pollen suggesting that Chloe should make up and act nicer to the ones she wronged, with the first focus being in fact Marinette.
One wacky idea is that Chloe decides to work in the Dupent-Cheng‘s bakery as a first step (aka Pollen suggested that, Chloe pestering her father to convince Marinette‘s parents to get Chloe a part-time job at their job, and Chloe for the first time actually doing some work etc)
The thing about Chloe and the creator's response about her is that him not being able to shut up is not the worst part. The worst part is that in reality there are kids like Chloe who are acting bad because of their horrible parents. By saying that Chloe is evil to her core and can't be changed he was saying the same thing to those children.
Creator of the children show absolutley should not be talking like that it's just harmful
Not only that he failed to properly make Chloé have her failed redemption
also chloe wouldve been a good addition to the group considering shes the only person who had a different opinion on what ladybug and cat noir said while everyone else is just a “yes mam” person. Imagine if homelander had this squad he wouldve went insane
@@margeryojije7862the issue isn’t wether we hate Chloé or not.. it’s how she was handled as a character. Look at Scarlet Lady AU and how she was handled there
I wonder if the girl Chloe is based on (who supposedly bullied Astruc in school) is just out there living her life, maybe had a family, and is completely unaware that this random guy she knew as a kid has a sad, obsessive, one sided beef with her…
I don’t know either and I didn’t go to their school, but if I had to guess, That girl probably stole his lunch money one time and he’s probably held a grudge ever since. Or, even more likely, he probably dropped his lunch money, she probably found it randomly and picked it up and kept it, and he probably decided she was an irredeemable monster for ‘stealing his lunch money’. Idk tho. Just a guess.
@@Youraverageyoutubeaccounthe had a crush on her and she rejected him
@@Sle3pingCloudz probably lol. It might also explain why stalking is glorified so much in that show.
Honestly, I think Smarty really summed up the biggest issue with Astruc. Even when he's making a point that's somewhat reasonable, he says it in such an arrogant way that it makes him insufferable. Also, it's nice to see The Immaturity of Thomas Astruc get a shout-out.
😊
@@benningtoncheemingwan9168⁷777>
😊967DBySw8QA⁸0
I think the worst part about this is that Miraculous is suppose to be a kid's show and this gives a lot of horrible life lessons, some of which are flat out disturbing. For example in season 2 it's very clear that Jeremy Zag had a different vision for Chloe, a misunderstood bully who acts like this due to her neglectful/abusive family, however by showing her some kindness she starts changing for the better, something that a lot of fans wanted. Unfortunately, because of Thomas hate boner for Chloe, he gives a black and white image to a point where he sabotages his own show just to spite fans who like her or dare to question him.
A kid's show doesn't necessarily have to teach life lessons...
@@justaguy263that's true, but for this writing team it's apparently a mandate that Marinette HAS to learn a lesson every time, even when it's not her fault
@@ggrarl Maybe in the beginning but in recent seasons the life lessons were not present. The last thing to actually and genuinely teach life lessons is the Paris special.
My little pony taught better life lessons then MLB! My little pony!
@@zcgamerandreacts2762 Why are you even comparing two clearly different shows? There's no even life lessons anymore in MLB
The fact that he's blocking everyone who has a different opinion than him speaks volumes. I mean, people call him "Ass-truck" for a reason.
He created a show with pretty deep topics and flawed characters yet he keeps denying that the topics are deep and the characters are flawed (especially with Adrien). And then he calls the fans stupid for "reading too much into it because it's just a kid's show".
He should be grateful that the fans and their love for the characters are keeping the show alive, otherwise it would've crashed and burned years ago.
Aren't people on Twitter say that you're allowed to block people for any reason whatsoever? I know we all are hating this guy here but what's wrong with hum setting boundaries with people he doesn't like?
@@Sonchikas1 The problem is not that he's setting boundaries when people are being rude or attacking him. The problem is him not wanting fans to "overthink" the show. People are speculating and asking questions about the show, which he doesn't like because he feels it's a personal insult to his "greatness". So he gives them passive aggressive replies or blocks them and then goes on a rant about the fans being stupid or sexist or pushing their beliefs and opinions onto him (which isn't what they're doing).
He only accepts comments if people praise him or his show, which is why fans don't tend to like him very much.
@@schraeder22 I'll bite the bullet here and say that falls under "any reason whatsoever". Passive agressiveness and rants is not graceful but blocking someone is not wrong if you don't want to hear anything from them? It's none of your business whether they do it to "protect their greatness" or peace of mind.
Telling people publicly you got blocked by someone is kinda cringe - not only you do not respect someone's decision not to interact with you but you also make it everyone else's business.
Because Astruc is french if we use the appelation "Ass-truck". I know it since I am French too, we call him like that and it has become the norm in Miraculous fandom.
@@Sonchikas1 He can block people, but then he should just shut up about it. Because the main issue with him is not the blocking itself, but the actions that surround it. Calling people out and insulting them. Which is just such a shitty thing to do, regarding the age of a lot of miraculous fans.
If he wants to protect his peace of mind, he should just block everyone he doesn't want to interact with and move on.
And if he doesn't want people asking questions, he should just move to a platform where he can turn off replies.
I don't mind if people mention they got blocked by him, because people don't take it seriously and mostly just make fun of it - it's basically a running gag among the fans who interact with him.
He's not problematic because he blocks people, his overall behaviour is shitty and childish, which is why the fandom doesn't like him. His reactions and little temper tantrums just say a lot about him as a person.
Astruc's argument "I'm a professional and you're not" falls flat after you've read that one tweet in which another professional in the field gave him a negative feedback, only for him to retort "this is a logical fallacy, you're asking me to accept your opinion merely because you work in this field".
You just can't win with Astruc 😅
Or better said;
Astruc just uses every excuse in the book just to not take criticism to reflect.
He's a manchild, and a very annoying one at that. It's also a bit creepy how he calls Marinette his daughter, imagining her to be his child and his ex's(idk if that's real. I think I heard it in a review). Also, he thinks he's a feminist, but feminism isn't about women being better than men. Feminism is about equality.
Also he claims Adrien is perfect and does no wrong, it's the world that's wrong. Like sure... the world can be wrong, that doesn't negate that Adrien is still flawed (even if those flaws were caused by the neglect and abuse that he endured).
@@DigiVixen Exactly! No one is perfect
He's also hugely islamophobic
>Feminism isn't about me, it's about equality.
You poor sod.
@DigiVixen Adrien is very flawed. That's legit the point of his character. Was he being sarcastic 😂
Sometimes, I think about how arrogant Thomas Astruc is, and how he's like 'I'm a professional writer and the one who made a popular show. I doubt you can say the same, so your criticism is invalid'.
And I'm like 'I don't need to be a professional chef to know when the food I'm being served tastes like sewer waste!'
But how do you know what sewer waste tastes like?
@@the_L-E-D_spike-factory_5277we all make mistakes in the heat of the moment, jimbo.
He is the reason why I don’t want to watch season 5.
The way he ruined so many characters. Chloe being a caricature because of how much he hates his own creation. Marinette being intolerable but it is fine because of how much he favors his own creation.
Adrien just being pushed to the side again and again and again.
That season 4 finale still made me so mad. I am not mad at her for choosing felix because she thought it was Adrien. Fine. What I am mad about is her flaunting him in front of everyone including Cat Noir because she just replaced him again and she does not care how he feels.
I get her being frustrated when he constantly flirts with her when she does not want that or shows up at the wrong time.
What I don’t get is when she does not use the words “i’m sorry” or try to listen to how other people feel. I mean it is Alya who noticed Cat Noir struggling with things. Jeez.
I saw the first few episodes of season 5 and they made ladybug and Cat Noir so incompetent.
Do I want them to have their powers at this point?
I stopped watching because I couldn't stand the constant jogging in place (the love-square and the plot), as well as the torment Marinette constantly went through making me really uncomfortable.
i don't even have words for season 5. suffice to say it burned any and all grace i was willing to extend and i won't be watching the next season(s). save your frustration. watch summaries and don't invest your time.
Don't watch it. All the problems are pushed to 11 and it's not even satisfying. Go check Scarlet lady instead
He reminds a lot of what the Nickelodeon creators go through like Butch Hartman where they will make a TV show and think they're GOATED due to that fact, however they also seem to develop a fragile ego from that
Thomas Austruc is a spiritual successor of Butch Hartman. Thomas Austruc is the french Butch Hartman. I would like to see Butch and Thomas met.
I mean butch was goated though
@base21 Nah, the writers and animators for his shows were goated. Just look at how Danny Phantom fell off in season 3 once Butch took hold in writing, and his completely different art style compared to all his shows. He's just the idea guy.
Hey at least Butch has some talent like when Danny Phantom fell off a fair bit in season three cause of his decisions it was still alright like Butch is great ideas Meh execution meanwhile Thomas is is just garbage
I find the fact that alot of people still call "X" Twitter- I think we should keep it like that
X? More like Gex, as in Gex is back!
@@ejm1225Aw yeah! We’re turning this Gex night into a Gex YEAR!
You think you're doing something with this comment lmao
@@PeruvianPotatosame can be asked about u
@@DMDadventures Literally how?
The thing is I wouldn't have needed a Chloe redemption if they hadn't started doing one. I could have lived with her being the mean girl forever if season 2 hadn't happened. I also would have been fine with a subverted redemption if it had been built up to with a natural progression. Redemption arcs usually aren't linear and if Chloe had along the way fallen back into old habits somehow I think it could have worked. But the way it happened was so out of nowhere it wasn't subversive or clever it was just a retcon.
Somebody on the team with much more media training than astruc put it a way I like, that it is meant to show kids that not everyone is worth your time, and while you should be kind to others and give them a chance, you should also be kind to yourself and not force yourself to engage with people who hurt you. It's not your job to sacrifice and fix someone even if they are pitiable. I think that was a valuable lesson even if it flopped. And while I get wanting to see chloe be redeemed, I think they subverted it just fine. If you watch those episodes again with that in mind, you can see at every step of the way that she is not actually improving, her eyes are constantly looking to make sure someone sees her being nice. When she went too long without a chance to show off how heroic she is, she created a situation herself where she could be a hero, by endangering a lot of people. I personally didn't find it misleading at all, but I might be much older and have consumed a much wider variety of media than the average viewer lol, so I do tend to look for these things.
Jeremy Zag was in charge of season 2, that's why. But then Astruc came back and folded everything that was done with Chloe.
@@assiaelmabrouki5552 Ahhh that's why I loved season 2 so much then, makes sense
@@Demonsta
Here’s the thing about this.
Yes, Chloe didn’t really change but I still think this undersells that Chloe still had potential. (I’d argue the one time she was being genuine is In Maladiktator) And the “not everyone is worth your time” lesson would have been a great lesson for Chloe to learn in terms of her mom.
The reality is, Chloe as a villain didn’t put anything new on the table and her demonization arc did more harm than good. She was better off as an anti hero than a “villain”
One thing I can never forget is that him calling me stupid for saying how I didn’t like what he did with the girls in this show, and how they all should be friends working together instead of being enemies just because theres one rich white boy they decided to stick like a glue as if he’s the last male child in the universe.
I know lots of people already complained about it but instead of finding my tweet in the sea of complaint tweets and calling me stupid he could’ve just not responded at all.
I was 15 at that time💀💀💀💀 he blocked me after writing few more tweets, then his fans started attacking me as well.
One of my first twitter memories😀
He has no right to call you stupid-
Hope you’re ok!
An he thinks he's a feminist smh
He says that but Chloé exists
The fact that an almost 50 year old guy who can't write well would say this to a 15 year old teenager who's voicing her opinion is absolutely insane and disgusting. This is why we should rely on creators who care about the characters and their fandom
The first and last experience I had with Astruc was when I saw an old drawing Astruc made of Marinette as Ladybug with some of the past ladybug holders in the background. You can find it pretty easily just by searching on google.
This was before I heard all the horror stories about this guy and so I innocently showed him the drawing and asked if he will do a drawing featuring Adrien as Cat Noir with his predecessors in the background too. He ended up blocking me for it. It was an interesting experience to say the least.😅
That's really dumb. It was just a suggestion; Tomas really is immature.
@@Theawesomeninja_XD I actually wanted his autograph along with the drawing too. I was just trying to test the waters to see if he will acknowledge me and take up the commission. I was very shy and did not want to engage with him directly but apparently he did and took my message the wrong way I guess. I was very eager to pay for it and have it shipped to my country. I suppose I dodged the bullet and saved alot of money huh?😊
Don't take it personally. There are times when he is getting spammed with so much hate, he probably just blocks without reading. Not great either way but he has to save his sanity somehow. I would have liked to see that drawing of chat too!
@@Demonsta i want to believe that but considering how he pretty much didn't give chat noir spotlight in few episode even if he did, chat noir will be an comedic relief. Thomas perspective of feminism is to bring man down while giving girls the spotlight
I think one of the things that make me hate him is his nonsensical beef with chloe, his own character, because shes is based on a childhood bully. Like ffs man, you made an abused and neglected child the devil. Imagine being a kid with parents like chloe, seeing a show that makes it seem like its your fault.
It’s pretty funny to think that the girl Chloe is based on is probably just out there living a normal life and Astruc is still so angry and hurt he made a fictional character named after her suffer just so he could “get back at her” years later.
…I can see why she made fun of him. What a loser.
@@snowbunnie1113 it truly shows how mentally derranged he is, like chill man you're grown now
No es la primera vez qué algún escritor inserta a su maton de la infancia en su obra.
Stephen King hizo lo mismo en "IT", J.K Rowling hizo lo mismo con Draco Malfoy y un largo etcétera.
To be honest, i was sad that Chole was Replaced with a Mary Sue, tbh, i knew I was going to hate her when she said she was sweet I think Chloe was the Sour the show needed and it basically so unbalanced that stopped it in Season 5
I feel like introducing Zoe was a bad call; if the whole point Austruc tried to make about Chloe’s failed redemption arc that you can’t have a good Chloe don’t then introduce Zoe because it undercuts the argument that Chloe not being good is necessary for the story because they literally introduced a character who is nothing more than Chloe but good.
I swear they made Zoe just to piss us off, like "This is what Chloe as good would be like"
@@Nakia11798 lol trying to tell us we shouldnt have wanted that cause she's so bland lol
Zoe she ends up being the poochie of the miraculous franchise
Something I've always disliked is the "it's made for kids! It doesn’t have to be well written/written for you" stance because, well- I was a kid when I started watching this show. I got invested in Chloe's development. I wrote fanfiction of new villains for the show. I genuinely enjoyed it- but I still hated Chloe's failed redemption. I hated Marinette's stalkery ways, even if I liked her character. I hated how dumb some of the writing felt. I held most of the same critiques that adults in the fandom have held for years.
Does my opinion not matter then, because it matches the opinion of those who "were not the target audience"?
Exactly! And that argument doesn't even work because there's plenty of good kids shows.
@@Theawesomeninja_XDExactly! To name a few. The owl house, Amphibia, Dora the Explorer, Max and Ruby, The backyardigans, Wordgirl, Bluey, etc!
Kids shouldn’t be subjugated to watching shows with horrible lessons when their brains are literally in the beginning of their formative years. Kids shouldn’t be held at a lower standard because you think they’re too stupid to understand a bad show when they see one, a children’s show should NEVER be created with that thought process in mind.
With a sinister mindset like that, it makes you wonder why they’d even bother making a children’s show in the first damn place when you obviously don’t have their best interests in mind.
@FeligamiAdrizoeDuusuLonggSwora 100% agreed, not to mention Avatar: The Last Airbender itself.
A saying once said "a kids show isn't a good show if adults can't watch it"
My favourite thing to think of when writing a character is, 'how many time does the description refer to the main character?', since that's how people will speak about them in fandoms and so forth. For example Alya, she does have a lot of personality but that can be put on the back burn because she is Marinette's 'yes man'. A majority of the time when people think of Alya they are thinking of Marinette's best friend. Literally a line in her wiki page personality is this: 'Alya is extremely loyal, supportive, helpful, and sometimes pushy, such as when she goes out of her way to encourage and (sometimes literally) push Marinette into spending time with Adrien.' A lot of the wikis just refer to her as a best friend of Marinette and fan of Lady Bug.
Miraculous is the one time I wanted a reboot so bad. It has a lot of wasted potential all because of a man baby who cant take criticism and wont let go of his issues.
there was a miraculous ladybug movie that was basically its own non-canon reset and despite its flaws, felt a lot better than the show if that counts? i heard thomas wasn't involved with the movie's production either but idk if thats just a rumour or not. i watched it on netflix a while ago and its visuals are so pretty compared to the show's too but thats because it has the budget of a movie. its literally called "Ladybug & Cat Noir: The Movie". It has songs in it too. Overall it was very fun and I think it perfectly fits what you’re describing and I’m glad Thomas had nothing to do with it if that’s true
So... Basically, Astruc INTENTIONALLY decided to make the message of Chloe's arc to be that bad people can never change and that bullies are monsters forever, regardless of their upbringing, in his KIDS SHOW??? What kind of message is that? "Sorry Susie, you bullied Patricia on the playground, guess you're a lost cause," what the heck!?
To fair that is a good message. Sometimes people in real life are just jerks and won't change dispite you wanting them to make good decisions. Life of like that sometimes.
@@icecreamhero2375 It's a good message...If you intend to make sure kids try to make friends in fear of being called mean and worthless!
@@Jellygirl313 No it's accurate. That's just life sometimes. There are bad people in the world and they threw in a little bit of reality. I doubt a child watched the show and became afraid to try to make friends.
@@Jellygirl313 Honestly everyone should be concerned about whether they are too mean to their friends. That is one of the things that keeps you from being mean to people.
@@icecreamhero2375 While it’s accurate in real life, this message could have been shown through Hawkmoth (or if we REALLY needed to show this through a teenager, Lila or Felix). The lesson falls apart with Chloe since Chloe WAS changing in S2. Things only went off track when Thomas came back into control in S3. The fact Thomas was so hellbent on portraying this lesson with Chloe EVEN THOUGH she technically didn’t fit the bill anymore is bizarre.
Speaking of pivoting, they missed a huge chance in season 4 with Nino’s character. Spoilers:
When he was akumatized and almost killed Cat Noir, he went back to Nino with no guilt whatsoever. People proved time and time again that they still make their own choices when akumatized.
I wanted him to have nightmares over the fact he nearly killed someone over an understanding. I wanted him to apologize to Alya that she saw him like that and strives to do better.
And Adrien can stay friends with Nino because he knows who his best friend is, but to struggles to look at him after that incident.
But nope, Ladybug saves the day and everything goes back to normal.
Thanks astruc.
That's the issue of having the show structured in its current state. If I remember correctly they wanted to have the show be watched in any order with the exception of some episodes. This of course leads to an issue of certain arcs being completely dismissed and long-term ramifications removed.
@@Justin-ui5ti Well it changed with season 5 since every episode is connected and following each other
@@Justin-ui5tiWell that is a good idea when they can't even get the episodes released in the right order
@@justaguy263 too little too late
My little sister loves this show and we talk about it a lot,
She's 8 by the way.
When she watched that season 3 finale she was so upset and keep questioned me on why Chloe became bad again.
She asked: so are all bad people never change?
They just hurt people again?
And it made me really mad honestly, it is such a bad opinion to start forming at such a young age.
If this show was aimed at older audiences that would be fine, after all with adult shows you don't need to spoon fed the reasons of why she did what she did to the audiences,
But with this show..
They could've at least keep her redemption arc but show that she's stumbling a little bit.
I hope the show turns around for the better, with or without Astruc.
*edit* Never had this many upvotes, thanks guys.
I get the feeling that only a reboot could make that happen
It will not
@@austint4139 The movie.
@@mrenergy5364 I mean, they could replace Astruc with Zag to write for future seasons to try and soft fine tone and retool write fix whatever Astruc's writing might had ruined for the past first five seasons of the show thus far here
@hunterrousseau3770 Hopefully it's not another twist troll move where Astruc just comes back again and goes yet another nuke on the show.
One of my favorite sayings is you can love the creation and not the creator.
How can you love the creation when the creator has tainted it with his own toxicity and sacrilege?
Frr
@@solidSnake4580 that does make it tricky
Lovecraft sends his regards.
but we dont love the creation because the creator made it so shitty?
If the plot didn’t move as slow as it did I would have supported Chloe’s failed redemption since life is just like that sometimes but the plot did move slower than a snail and I’m still upset
Not to mention…It didn’t help any other character’s development (it actually made more characters worse) and Chloe wasn’t even all that affective as a villain. No one takes her seriously as a villain (not even the fandom-)
The problem with Chloe's arc isn't that they axed a redemption that Astruc already explained was never on the table to begin with, it's that the damnation arc was badly handled because they prioritised it being a rug-pull over writing it well.
Yeah, Chloe was still consistently horrible throughout her fake redemption arc, off-setting her good moments, Astruc pointed out that there were plenty of red-flags for Chloe's betrayal. But the show itself trained us to ignore those red flags by hand-waving away her behaviour, the infamous train incident was forgotten about by the end of the episode and Chloe still got given the Bee after that despite doing nothing to earn her "second chance", as well as the characters commenting on how Chloe "could change". And then she just joins Hawkmoth completely with no scruples. And even after her "damnation", Chloe's betrayal goes completely unremarked on in the following season.
The fandom doesn't like Chloe as an Antagonist at all.
Between production and all, animation is kinda complicated in France... But I agree the show has a horrible pace...
@justaguy263 The show has the pace of an anime that's being adapted from a manga that's still being made.
God Astruc ruins his own show so badly that he using personal ideas of his creepy behaviour like have one of the characters being named after his ex who's chinese and treats Marinette as his favourite daughter as he using trauma as an excuse for stalking behaviour. He so immature that his relies in twitter are so childish whenever there's chloe which he hate foe whatever reason. The movie was way better than his trainwreck of a show despite its own flaws.
He hated chloe because she is based off of his highschool bully
@@OthandoSimamane-ss1xp Funny that he denying about it considering how much he hated her. He also said that's she more irredeemable than gabriel which is baffling to look like he did way awful things just to get his own dead wife back from the dead. Worst Marinette cover his horrible and made him a hero with a statue and even lie to Adrian about it rather than the truth. She is the worst superhero ever and a definition of corruption.
@@RedDeadSpider343 Exactly! Chloe is more redeemable than Gabriel ever was
@@jonelrobinson7432 right we gonna act like Mari is a saint either cuz she has worse things
@khaliyahjefferson832 Marinette always get away with her stalking behaviour and the writers are justifying it rather than taking accountability.
Miraculous ladybug has great potential but was never able to reach the great potential yet. Since Chloe’s redemption was written out, Luca was written out, Adrian constantly side line even against his own dad. Heck I wouldn’t be surprised to see the other heroes getting more screen time than Adrian in season six
Learn to spell the name of the character you like so much
I hate how he was getting sidelined like he wasn't important and wasn't told the important stuff
@@Nakia11798 chill out dude, it's not that big of a problem.
People keep saying the redemption was written out when it was never planned to begin with. If the production schedule was week to week and they had gotten audience feedback in time they might have written it IN, but there was no redemption written in order for it to be written out. Why is the fandom so stubborn about this!
@@Demonsta So no writer in that studio had the hindsight of doubling back on Chloe’s redemption was a bad move. Or was that Thomas Austruck Purposely forced the writers to write against the tropes.
In my opinion, if a person who created a movie, TV show, novel, video game, etc etc it's their job to make sure their series have a coherent story, and makes sense for the audience to understand. However, one of my biggest problems with the Miraculous Ladybug series is that Thomas Astruc has made some illogical choices in terms of Miraculous's stories, writing, and characters. After season 2, there are some inconsistencies between seasons 3 through 5. Plus, I don't understand why he argues his fans when they ask him about some inconsistencies in the show. Weird.
The writer is nothing in front of the producer and diffusers... If you understand how things work in animation, many ideas are blocked and/or edited because the diffusers say so. In France when the series comes from, it's far harder to talk about dark topics than in the US. No wonder Emily was never confirmed to be dead until recently when some diffusers finally started to quit because of conflicts and more
All in all I think our distain for Tomas Ass-truc is justified, this man ruined western animation and is the reason why it’s considered “for kids”
From ruining a charecter’s development just for vindication to hoisting his imaginary daughter on a podium and making her “flawless”
He’s tarnished western animation and fine literature forever
I think that’s a bit of an overstatement. His writing and direction are poor but this is the first time I’ve ever heard this take from anyone. For every Miraculous Ladybug, there are plenty of shows and movies that remind people that animation can be just as much a piece of art than anything else. I don’t think he’s tarnished anything in terms of western animation. Besides maybe his own show 😅
@@foxpokemonforever4775 true , but all it takes is for one bad piece for people to compare other fine shows to it, there’s a reason why animation is stigmatised as a kids show and while never stated outright I think miraculous ladybug has a part to play
I’ve seen my family cringe when I describe animation, and at least one of them called it kid like and talked about miraculous ladybug in the same regard . It’s so hard to make a good reputation for animation when there are so many bad ones holding it down
The "its for kids" defense pisses me off to no end. Like sure its made for a child audience but that doesn't mean it can't have good writing. I think as a kid this show would have made me made. I like over arching plots and character arcs and what not. i LOVE shows like avatar even as a kid. I didnt really watch it as i had trouble tuning in weekly. But thats not the point. The point is is the fact that this show horribly fumbles ever. single. plot. point. They seem to be unable to have a plot go on for more then one episode. The Chloe plot was the most egregious example but the one im personally most disappointed in is all the ones involving Adrien/Cat Noir. The fact that he was feeling unneeded in the team was brushed aside and easily forgiven. AND THEN THE LASTES EPISODE JUST TOSSED HIM ASIDED?!??! And now everyone in his life is keeping major secrets from him (something that is established as something he really hates people doing, especially if those secret involve him in some way). and this can only end bad but I dont think the writers will do anything with it. It seems like Adrien isnt a character but just an object for the heroes affections. If the roles were reversed the show would be destroyed online as sexist.
Yes not giving you what you wanted and having an average writting for a cartoon is so a crime. Those who bully him are heroes. I hope that he will be sent to prison for his crimes.
Dude, stop being so damn dramatic. You're giving him far too much credit, and it sounds like you don't really watch enough cartoons to even make that judgement
The main problem with Astruc is how combative he is about everything. He knows best, and no one else, not even Timothy Zag can do better or have more ideas that could benefit the show.
A part of this has to do with the weird overly personal investment he has with his creation. Of course, every creator will be attached most of the time to their creations. It’s their baby, it’s understandable. But Astruc takes this to a whole new level with characters being based on people he has beef with. Marinette apparently being based on an imaginary child he wanted with his ex, Chloe being based on another ex’s child who he didn’t like, it’s all completely arrogant and tunnel visioned as if he’s somewhat using the show to cope with his own relationship issues which doesn’t make for good storytelling. That is personally why I think he is so combative with everyone, from the trolls to the legit critiques. As it all comes back to his mind as a personal attack on him because he has based the show on things he wanted or didn’t like in his own life. That personal attachment can drive someone mad, and it certainly has for Astruc.
I thought Chloe was based on his childhood bully, where was it stated that she was based on an ex's child?
@@MikeFireheart while Chloe was initially based on a childhood bully, the reason why she didn’t have a redemption was because Astruc saw an ex girlfriend’s child in her, and seemingly henceforth based her character on that kid who he didn’t like.
@@riotkitty Let me guess, he posted that on his twitter/X account? I wouldn't be surprised with how over half of the show's actual lore is just in his posts online. There's a reason that the actual show is so bare bones.
@@MikeFireheart yep…😅
@@riotkitty I figured as much, the dude has more lore in those posts, than the show has had in 5 full seasons. It just shows how screwed up his priorities are.
Chloe and Lukas writing deserved so much better
Maybe they will even Chloe returns to Paris from London a changed person and wants to make up for her past mistakes that costed her everything before and she and him could somehow go from acquaintances to eventually lovers *OFF SCREEN*
How would you like a redemption story where Luka is Chloe's new love interest?
@@DigiVixen I think I'm sure Jeremy Zag would think of something to get them together Off-Screen before showing her again somehow in someway here
@@DigiVixensomeone asked that once, That Guy said "opposites attract" is a toxic relationship
Luka deserved to be a real human character, not a Gary stu
Compare him to someone like Dan Povenmire. Not the best example because Phineas and Ferb is a far superior show to Miraculous and is long since finished but this guy's interaction with fans through TikTok and other platforms shows how clearly he was the person who made the show and how much passion he put into it.
Or Tommy Andreasen, the showrunner of Ninjago. A show that isn't perfect either but has clear signs that the people behind it are listening to criticism and trying to improve with each season.
Until they blow it and have to start from scratch.
Astruc blows off criticism, acts very entitled and his improvements are the equivalent of fixing engines with tape.
Marinette is a creepy stalker? Well, it's because of trauma I just made up and that creates even more plotholes.
To be fair Astruc doesn't have to listen to criticism if he doesn't want to. Although he is better off keeping his mouth shut rather than beefing with people.
Legit. I think other writers listen to us and try to write the show better, but they can't fight back much when Astruc makes a big dumb decision
Hopefully with out Astruc's hate boner for chole and all that rewrite the world thing they did in the last episode they can bring her back redemption arc in tack with her as queen bee and that knock off sister of hers can just stand in the background or something #justiceforchole
God I hope.
@@ashebennett7726 I know right they write a beautiful redemption arc for her that gets us to love her then this ass calls us idiots undoes the arc makes her worse adds a knockoff chole that has no personality yet everyone in the show just loves because she's not chole, and then writes her off the show in the meanest way possible trapping her forever with that awful mom of hers
I'm a Chloe fan and GOD NO! NO! NOOOOO!
I can't explain but I feel like if they do that, it will cause so much problem.
@@Mebro-m6d my dude it can't be worse then what we got now pulse with last season ending on some kind of universe reset who knows it could work pretty well
@@ajmcomixonline8824 she was giving mary sue and he gives Marinette a pass because she's his favorite child apparently cuz she can't do no wrong except breaking into dude house sniffing his pillows nearly kissing him etc.
Main problem about from him being argumentative on twitter is how creepy he seems like how his main character for his show is based on the non-existent child between him and his ex more that allude me at the moment but it’s so creepy and weird
Source?
Actually, Marinette is based on an old friend he met around 2005.
@@justaguy263 If that is true good but something is still off about him that or just might be how the fan base portrays him
@@pantalaimon8433 Sometimes, the fandom tends to forget that Thomas can't control everything in his show. It takes a team effort to produce a show and sometimes, some plot decisions are all about the producers (Thomas doesn't produce the show; he partly writes and directs it) and the broadcasters decisions, like this is why it was never stated directly until recently that Emily really died. Many plot ideas were either blocked or heavily edited because of them (The Cat Blanc episode was supposed to be darker). I admit the show has its flaws and all but seriously, the fandom didn't realize how toxic they became because the show didn't turn the way they wanted.
@@pantalaimon8433 Definitely the second opinion. And concerning Marinette, I don't justify her stalking attitude but at the time when the show began, it was just an exaggerated comedy relief (I remember laughing like crazy because of that, as well as sometimes being annoyed), but as the fandom was more and more complaining about that (even though she was less stalking Adrien from season 3 until completely letting it go), my biggest guess was the Derision episode of season 5 was like: You have your excuse episode so leave us alone with that complain.
Like they wanted to justify Marinette's actions by this episode to satisfy the fans who were and are still clearly making it a big deal. But seriously from my opinion, I didn't really like how paced and handled it was.
Another problem with Chloé's failed redemption is that it is, objectively speaking, Marinette's fault. And by "objectively", I mean that S3E25 goes out of its way to show that: when Marinette has to choose between taking Chloé's Miraculous or Kagami's to get help, she chooses the second one just because she was worried about Kagami and Adrienne being together, so basically the selfish and wrong choice; Master Fu asks her worriedly if she is sure about her choice, which never happened before, and later Kagami comments on how Ladybug had previously told her that she could never become a Miracle-holder again due to Hawk Moth knowing her identity - the same situation as Chloé's, showing that Marinette applied a double standard for her own gain. The problem is, from S3E26 onward, all of this gets completely ignored and all of the blame is put on Chloé. Not just that, but in S4-S5 all of the other heroes (including Kagami) _keep being heroes despite Hawk Moth having discovered their real identities_ (something he even takes advantage of in an episode), and the hypocrisy of that is never addressed if not with a single line - in an unrelated episode - that doesn't have any weigth.
In fact, Marinette's character is the second most criticized thing when it comes to Austruc: the show is completely oblivious to when she does wrong, and the few times she's punished, it's for stuff she doesn't deserve to be punished for. It's as though Austruc wants to portray her as "perfect", but since she is a cartoon character, he sometimes throws a bone at the "mc makes mistake" aspect just for the sake of narrative tropes. Basically: either he's incompetent at character writing (which at this point I think there's more than enough ground to think), or he has just a huuuge Marinette bias (or both). The fact she's literally the OC insert of the imaginary child he would have liked to have with an old ex-girlfriend really doesn't help.
Outside of his writing, though, there's another point that I hope will get talked about: how, despite all of the success his show got, Austruc keeps acting resentful for how it didn't go exactly down the route he wished for it. Initially, he pitched Miraculous as an animation, and many of his comments still reflect that. When the first movie got released, he acted as though fans wanting a movie was somehow detrimental or disrespectful of his work (a famous viral comment of him is "the movie is what you want, but the show is what you need"). Oh, and then there is how some episodes of Seasons 4 and 5 are deliberately written in order to attack some of the criticism made toward Austruc, to the point that a lot of them disregard previously-established events to such an illogical level that had never been displayed in previous seasons - and when confronted about those seasons' writing, most of his tweets come down to "It's just a kid's show, it doesn't need to be complicated" (actually, I recall one of his tweets literally being "It's just a kid's show, so who cares", though likely with a little different wording); basically showing how his interest is not even about tending to the show anymore, but just take it out on the fans out of spite for them.
Not to mention, it was Marinette who pushed Audrey to spend time with Chloe. While it seems like she did a good thing, I think Marinette screwed Chloe over, since Audrey isn't qualified to be a parent. While it's true Chloe was already like her mom, it may have been best if Chloe kept her distance from Audrey and accept her mother doesn't care for her.
I really liked this show. Introduced it to a friend. Discussed some of my disappointment about Chloe, and how there were some self inserts. He then proceeded to point out
- the weirdness of his daughter figure being constantly tied up
- the extremely high number of times children are tied up, gagged, put in compromising positions
- the close ups during the transformation of the kids' bodies, and the "leather gimp suit"
- the self insert of the director living out his humiliation kink
So um... yeah. Kids show.
Sorry but... I think that's a you problem? Please stop looking at children sexually... Being tied up and gagged is just classic villain stuff dating back to the invention of superheroes. It is like the most innocent way to endanger civilians, like what do you want, depictions of torture? The main hero's tool is also a string, yet she ties people up less often than spider man. The transformations are referencing classic magical girl media and are already much less saucy than classics like sailor moon where you can tell even in silhouette that the teenage characters are fully nude; In miraculous they are never nude, the camera zooms and pans to show action and various parts of the costume, it never zooms or lingers on body parts that could be considered sexual. If you surround yourself with sexual content you will start to see it everywhere. Literally anything can be made to seem sexual if you have a mind to make it so. Sorry but you're projecting.
@@Demonstabig big agree.
@@Demonsta reading comprehension isn't for everyone, it's ok. MY FRIEND who I introduced the show to pointed all this out to me because I didn't notice it. Once you see it it's difficult to ignore. Yes, there are some elements of animating where it's easier to design a body and lay it over with the pattern so you don't have to worry about loose clothing with it's own movements. But it was hard to defend a show that zooms in on a kid's vagina while she does splits.
@@nikitabreslin4568 Okay so your FRIEND is sexualising children. You don't look at any vaginas, because the show never shows the kids nude.
@@nikitabreslin4568 i totally get you, i get that uncomfy feeling too, like the author keeps forgetting they're kids... tf
Unfortunately, you hit the nail on the head for me. Despite my utter disgust for Chloe in Season 1 and part of Season 2, to the point where I nearly walked away when she got a Miraculous, I truly started to care about her and her struggles to be a hero. Marinette was...fine, as an MC (ignoring her very inappropriate behaviour before it further escalated) with her heroic drive, and Chloe felt a bit more human with her actively struggling to become a hero like her idol. It wasn't the most original story in the world, but it took a character I thought would never amount to anything and gave her a decent story arc that I enjoyed. And then of course, Miracle Queen happened.
The worst part was that I still hoped things could be resolved. I still hoped that Chloe would see the error of her ways, prove herself, and become a hero again. Obviously as season 4 began it became clear that the writers were sticking to their choice, but even then I wasn't really mad. What can you do?
Then Zoe appeared. Out of literally nowhere. To replace her sister. W. T. F.
Few things have pissed me off more than this sudden, stupid, "half-sister" reveal. Nothing against Zoe as a character, but her existence offends me in ways I cannot fully express because it represents the abrupt death of something that felt good. It was one thing to introduce her in the first place, but to make her take up the Bee Miraculous as well? It just felt as if the writers were spitting in our faces.
TL;DR - I despise the fact that Zoe was sloppily used to replace Chloe as the Bee Miraculous holder.
Well.. time to take Chloe parents away for good
Code Lyoko showrunners: Once we realized that we had a show with a dedicated fanbase, we re-wrote the show bible for season 2 to give the fans more of what they liked about the show while still playing to our strengths.
Thomas Astruc: Now you listen here, you little shits...
Wild bow: I make people suffer
Bowlder Hat Guy: Hmm, let's see... take responsibility for my own life or blame you? Ding-ding-ding-ding! Blame you wins hands down!
Is that Meet the robinsons reference?
@@Nanao_Ise7472 Yep
Thanks for reminding me of my childhood.
Thank you so very much for the reference! It's made me so incredibly happy, and I smiled a lot from this. I think it's such an underrated movie, and not many people talk about it.
One thing to note about Zoko's failed character arc is that his first redemption arc began with him giving up his original goal, which was to go back home. However, when he ultimately fails his first redemption, it is to achieve his original goal. This leads to the idea that he got what he wanted, but lost what he really needed, and the question is if it was worth it in the end. On the other hand, Chloe doesn't have a goal like this that could cause a sort of healed turn.
Chloe had a goal, to not be useless, to feel important to the people that matter to her specially her mother. But the show completely dropped that plot and turned her into mean for the sake of being mean. They don't even give her a particular interest; in one episode they said she was a gymnast but that's not mentioned anymore (that could've explained her 'friendship' with Kim). She tried to be an artist when she showed up with a collage of selfies, and after she quit the art teacher even pointed out to Alix that art beginners should be encouraged, not mocked, which is a good lesson for a kids' show, but again all of that is wasted.
@@riel4553That's my problem with Chloe's whole story; IT WASN'T HER FAULT.
She only turns because Mari made her feel useless by refusing to trust her and Mari doesn't learn a gd thing from that failing. It would be one thing if Chloe did just flat out evil things but even in the last bit, she still was heroic because she did the right thing.
Chloe's heel turn was forced on her by the bad choices of those around her and Thomas is expecting us to hate her when...no. No, I can't because she was fucked over by the bad choices of someone else and THAT IS NOT HER FAULT.
And fanficfion writers are better writers than ASS-truc, at leas they have the decency to do proper charecter development and have good story arcs
The idea that people who get paid to do a thing are automatically better than people who don’t is really dumb; but for creative jobs like writing it’s absurd.
Creative industries like animation are notoriously difficult to get into, especially for people from lower income backgrounds. For jobs like these it can sometimes be more of a case of “who you know” instead of what you can do, where if you don’t know someone already in the industry who can vouch for you or help you get access to opportunities you can really struggle to get a foot in the door
I love how atla is ALWAYS the example of a good show, whatever video i watch that resembles on character arcs, the example of writing done well is always atla.
This shows could have a reboot NOT write by Astruc. Why not with an anime style like the original concept? Wouldn't it be cool to see Ladybug, Chat, Rena rouge and the others heroes in that animation? Gabriel would also looks nice plus the animators could put a lot of action and flashy colors. I would love to see that 😄
I find it funny how people actually want a reboot, in all honesty it's not like it could ruin the show even more tbh
So basically Vivziepop with her own fandom in terms of "can't stop engaging with all of them when they are trying to use him as an outlet for their feelings", oops.
Do not compare vivzipop to Astruc. You know damn well Astruc is actively malicious
Except people keep defending Vivziepop like there's no tomorrow, because she at least has some redeeming qualities (of which I find to be highly irrelevant, to be honest) and because they make good points, I'm too scared to counterargue back, so I relent, but I know for a fact that she doesn't handle adult themes as tactfully as she thinks she does, because if it causes your fan base to be divided on an adult topic you wanted to cover, then you did a terrible job at handling it well, and that you should probably do more research next time, or wait until your brain is mature enough to handle these topics. Sometimes you try your best, but your best will never be good enough for everybody. That's what I tell myself anyway.
i love vivziepop
@@nevaehhamilton3493 also her show is good and has good characters mlb doesnt and isnt
Finally someone else who sees the similarities between him and Viv. From the pettiness to trying to make an awful ship work
Actruc is the biggest reason why I apply the "Death Of The Author" to all my fav fictional media.
Honestly, with how the show is going, it feels like the fandom has applied “Death of the Original”; people are ignoring the show in favor of what the show could have been.
Zag has to fire Thomas if he wants better publicity
Indeed 💯
Didn't he already do that
@@cjgamer6356 I hope so
@@cjgamer6356 you can check if he did
Would add that Zag makes very bad decisions on his own. Announcing projects that will never comes to fruition and selling parts of his rights to the series to a investor company.
I think turning your main character(who wasn’t supposed to be the only main character originally) into an obsessive stalker is one of the worst things Astruc did. Marinette was a creepy stalker for the first 4 seasons of the show. She did things that low-key made you sometimes relieved that Gabe was so strict to Adrien. If Gabe had known what Marinette had done in the past, he probably would’ve kept Adrien from Marinette simply because of how obsessed she was with his son. Marinette did tons of things worthy of a restraining order. I truly hate that Astruc used the episode derision to justify Marinette’s actions towards Adrien, even though PTSD symptoms in the DSM-5 don’t add up with Marinette’s actions in the past.
I have tons of other things to say about my opinions on Thomas Astruc, but I feel like they would up an entire essay.
Agreed 100%, but the original French tittle of the show was "Miraculous Ladybug", it only changed after they translated the show into other languages, so Mari was always intended to be the one and true protagonist from the get-go.
Its one thing to never intend to change a character. thats your right as a writer, but it's kind of sucky to see people say they saw the seeds for an arc and to just say there were no seeds and people are reading into nothing. I understand the urge to message back, and if he still has the money, the show, and a stable life he's the one winning in the end, but I wonder if theres any criticism he ever accepted or if anyone online is just the enemy.
I do feel bad for tomas though. It's super hard to get a show made, especially one this popular so he had to work hard or get lucky to get the opportunity. And I imagine constantly having that show torn apart would suck, but the way he responds about stuff makes it really easy to start seeing some of the other stuff (naming Marinettes parents after himself and his ex) in a muuuch weirder light.
Butch Hartman put himself in fairly odd parents as "Dr.Rip Studwell" and I never questioned it as a kid, but now that Butch isn't well liked anymore people call that cringe/ arrogant.
Tomas has TWO characters represent him. Stuff like that, and his response to naming a black character "Ghetto blaster" maybe came from a context that was wasnt nearly as bad as people assume, but it's hard to tell.
I remember an unfinished fanfiction named "Chloé's amnesia" made by otakufan375 where Chloé gets ducked on by Stoneheart-like Akuma and lose her memory. She becomes a nice and pure girl but her classmates as an hard time to cope with her. Also, flashes of memory surges to her brain and she risks to revert back to her bratty side. As the story advances, Chloé slowly realised what kind of horrible person she was and tries to make amends. She is helped by Marinette who tries to make her a very nice person, we see a very caring Marinette, almost motherly to Chloé. While Lila manipulates Alya to harm Chloé after the latter revealed that she is smooth-brain liar, ending the friendship between Marinette and Alya after a violent altercation.
It's sad that the fanfiction is unfinished like too many but it shows that we can make something good with Chloé. You just have the willingness to do so unlike Thomas Astruc.
I was literally typing about Zuko's character arc, including his relapse/subversion on the way. Thank you for mentioning it yourself
Honestly, the "this show is for kids!" excuse just doesnt work anymore. it's been out for almost a decade, so any kid who watched it on launch is now a teen. surely some new kids are still coming into the fandom, but with it being around for so long, a lot of the interactive fandom consists of teens and adults. i was a freshman in high school when this came out, just barely older than the characters myself.
there comes a point where you need to realize that you cant make excuses. kids deserve good media just as much as us teens and young adults do. if they played their cards right, they couldve had another atla on their hands. the show people couldnt stop praising over a decade after it ended, and that was before there was ever the live action show. mlb had so much potential, but unfortunately mr astruc had to be the main person behind it...
edit: minor spelling errors
Yeah! I was in sixth grade when it came out. I'm almost done with my freshman year of college.
And another thing, there are many well written kids shows. Imo the excuse never worked in the first place.
I dislike how utterly incompetent hawkmoth is. Like I get the main characters need to win, but can you maybe have the villain at least be half way intelligent? How do you lose with literally every miraculous, including the one that literal lets you time travel.
A literal child wins with absolute ease on their first try.
the "little girls" exscuse is just stuipid. I watched Miraculous season 1-2 when I was around third grade and I understood clohe change and struggels at the time. Kids are not idiots Thomas. Kids can understand a character's change or past struggles in shows like this or avatar or owl house or whatever children show with a story arc you can think of.
I would like to see Smarty Pants and Cyrus the Great teaming up to create a powerful review to bring down Thomas Austruc.
the ways chloe was handled will always piss me off and to insist chloe was never meant to be redeemed by giving us a ripoff literally named ZOE??? bro was rejected by a blonde girl in school and never moved on
He hates us and the characters, we're just returning the favor
Yep!
I mean he stated that Chloe is based on a childhood bully he had. And refuses to see her anything else but that bully based on how he acts about it. One of many of his life experiences leeches into his work that poisons it. If only he looked to it as inspiration and not a point to vent.
Look at his "daughter" in the show for more reason.
I don't think it was a bad idea to base Chloe off of one of his childhood bullies if it were a means for him to cope, but it devolved into pathetic revenge against a teenage girl who doesn't exist.
@@margeryojije7862 To be honest, I don’t really care about the show that much to bother, I just watch videos about the fandom from time to time.
I was part of the OG fanbase when the very first episode dropped. In Korea. And then again in France. 😅
The fandom loved Astruc then. We called him Papa Papillon or Daddy Astruc.
Then he continuously betrayed our trust with the way things were developing. Chloe was never allowed to be redeemed, Marinette was getting more stalker-ish by the minute, there were too many instances of _almost_ identity reveals that it got tiring.
And that was _before_ Astruc started arguing with people on Twitter
Something i also noticed whatching the show next to the many other problems is how he makes literally everyone look bad to boost Marinette's reputation more. Characters are constantly written out of character to make Marinette look better.
I will never forgive him for mascaring Chloe’s redemption arc.
Miraculous need a reboot. Cause tbh any change would be better than the original
Yeah, Thomas really needs to accept criticism and not be constantly defensive. However, the biggest problem I had with Chloe's arc, was how rushed it was. We had hints in season 1 about Chloe having a heart, but a few episodes into season 2 she is already getting an arc before the two main characters. It just reeks of no self-restraint and feels like multiple people were writing different parts of the show, resulting in a messed up quilt of a story. There's just no way it was planned from the start tbh.
I don’t know, it’s common for side characters to get growth first before main characters since the side character arcs don’t last too long. They wrap up so the main characters can get the over all big arc.
Sometimes those arcs can build off of the main character as well, helping them grow along with the side characters.
And idk if I agree with it being rushed. IF hypothetically, they went through with Chloe’s arch, we don’t know how long it would have lasted. To me, it seemed that Chloe was JUST starting to turn a corner. She still had a lot to go through, dealing with her mom/dad, dealing with being a hero, still dealing with unlearning her toxic behaviors. I think the pace that was happening was fine.
But I do agree that it often feels like multiple people are pulling at the plot/narrative. It leads to inconsistent morals and character decisions.
@@redballoon9007 True, but the characters are usually supposed to develop around the same time, are they not?
The way Miraculous went about it was having Marinette and Adrien stay relatively stagnant until the finale with the cheek kiss, while Chloe gets essentially an entire arch for her character throughout the season. You can argue they had love rivals, but that didn't really change the characters at all. It's Tales Of Ladybug & Cat Noir, not Tales of Chloe Bourgeois & The Dysfunctional Love Diamond.
When I said rushed, I meant it felt like they sped to her arch specifically, without seeming to care about the two main characters that had yet to develop at all. They clearly had time to develop them as characters, but chose to specifically focus on Chloe for most of season 2. The only other character to get a backstory was Master Fu at the beginning, leaving 98% of the remaining cast without anything new to do.
I personally think Chloe should've been more of a slow burn character, with a couple episodes each season developing her character. This way she would develop naturally from a bully to a friend/hero, not jump from one boat to another within the span of a few weeks if that. This is actually confirmed with all 5 seasons taking place around one year, not giving Chloe much time to develop naturally.
@@MikeFireheart If the two LEARNED something from having secondary love interests then it wouldn’t be a waste of time… But they learned NOTHING!
@@littlebabyman8494 True, however the love rivals didn't do much until season 3 and were immediately ejected from relevance around season 4. Season 2 had Kagami be a blank slate with attitude and fencing as her character, only to be dumped by Adrien after the double date in Frozer. Luka meanwhile, was pretty much friend zoned from the start and a blank slate outside being a musical therapist. In all honesty, the love rivals were just added for drama and the writers didn't even try with them.
@@MikeFireheart For professionals they needed to try harder. People came around to Kagami and Luka eventually, to the point where they saw the main characters getting with those two as the better option.
I don't usually mind seeing creators using their real-life experiences as inspiration for their stories, in fact, done right it can produce some of the best material. But if all you're taking from your past is regret and resentment you're eventually going to start alienating people.
That Guy said "Simpleman" was the funniest episode ever because it's meta. He also said "Backwarder" had the creative team constantly laughing. Both episodes are full of cringe and humiliation. Maybe it’s a French thing, but generally in the USA, we don't think someone made to look like an idiot is funny unless they deserved it. It's like Krusty once said, "The pie in the face gag is only funny when the sap's got dignity!" (Case in point, the Three Stooges.) Marinette embarrassing herself all the time isn’t funny, it's sad. Then there's the fact that they backtracked and said she acts like a creep because of PTSD.
Thomas gets petty whenever people bring up Felix or Chloe. I liked Felix when know about him in the PV & him saying that Felix can’t make the show interesting or not be a good love interest is wrong. It’s sad that he fights & blocks the fans especially when they give back criticism to make the show better. Yeah he did release this show & have so much scripts for more of the world but wish he wouldn’t be a man child.
The Miraculous NY comic is so cringe & how he tried to defend that 1 stripe. It’s strange that he has Sabine who is named from his ex girlfriend & Marinette is their daughter so you can see the favoritism. Seeing Zag & Jeremy take over at times does show that it does have potential.
The only thing I like from Thomas is that he wants the series to be made into a anime like it was originally planned with dark themes & a Reverse World Series. For those I hope they can make it aim towards young adults. Since he posted that the fans need to show to the companies what we want.
Speaking of Felix and Chloe, I hope they have kinda of a somewhat rivalry with each other when she returns from his home town of London and back to Paris a changed person while trying to tell everyone that Felix should not be trusted so easily and everyone has a hard time believing her kinda like with something similar to like with Marinette and Cerise who she only knew then as Lila before
The blonde don’t catch a break.
@@littlebabyman8494 Let's hope she will when Jeremy Zag writes for future seasons of the show now and it isn't just a cop out just to let Astruc return to write again instead
Having a self insert of yourself in a KIDS SHOW (or any for that matter) that has an episode centered around “not getting appreciated or overlooked” is so so soooo narcissistic and gross. His inability to take criticism on top of that just makes him so unlikable. No he shouldn’t have to change everything or even listen to fans, but there are points where a creator should listen to them. Especially when it’s something that they want to where it would only make his show better such as more screen time for certain characters. He also just plainly lacks the knowledge for writing in general, because stalking is not a cute trait. It was funny for a bit but progressing over the seasons for so long it’s tiring and obsessive. You can write a good character like Marinette and improve upon her. He simply cannot write
It's hard to feel bad for a guy getting heat when he brings 99% of it upon himself
“In the end it’s a tv show, is it worth the harassment of someone else?” Smart man! I agree with your points. The show needs better writing but I mean why argue over it.
As a a girl who was a tween when this show hit main stream, i genuinely couldnt and cant stand it. How am i supposed to like a show when the mc is such a creep AND shes irritating. I think Thomas is WAY too obsessed with marionette for this show to feel cohesive in its plotpoints, but im not gonna lie it mainly because i cant stand marionettes "im just a baby tho 🥺🥺" personality😤🙃
The dude really says Chloe is unforgivable and that she'll never change
To me, whenever a show runner, says something like. It’s a kids show, it’s not meant to be deep or complex. It always implies to me, that they don’t want to work as hard, or put in much effort. And even back in the mid 2010s, I feel like, we had already moved on from kids shows just being simple kidy sh*t. Of course avatar the last air bender is the G.O.A.T, but I want to highlight my little pony friendship is magic. Definitely a top 5 cartoon of the 2010s. The driving force behind the show’s staff, was to not make a girly show, were everything is solved with tea and giggles. They wanted to make a show that everyone enjoyed. Having the characters go on adventures and quests, exploring the world, and having some slice of life episodes here and there. And when the show had a surprising audience of mostly adults, they catered to them, and introduced more locations, more races, and even some mythology about the world. They could have put in less effort, and made a simple kids show. But they wanted to make the world more complex and interesting. Which resulted in one of the biggest cartoons of the 2010s, and it lasting for 9 seasons, and a whole decade. People are leaving the miraculous fandom, and the show, because it’s been doing the same boring sh*t, that’s it’s been doing, since 2015, and if Tomas doesn’t do something in the next season, that really, and I mean really gets people’s interest back into the show. It’s going to suffer diminishing returns. TLDR: shows that make themselves interesting, last longer, and get better reception from fans, critics, and the general audience.
It's been long since I'm not seeing your channel. I see you have improved on the audio quality and your narration.
Kee it up!
Yeah... plus most of the time was wasted to make his point "valid" of Chloé being the worst... While not making more interisting comeback for the show. He ruined his own show...
His comments on Chloe are what made me second guess him. I mean he put in the work to set up a redemption for her that seemed to go so well and made her far more interesting, then does a 180 and digs his feet in the ground saying ‘psyche! She’s still bad and will remain so’. If she was meant to be a villain the whole time, why devote episodes to show her redemption even being one of the first to resist hawkmoth’s akuma, only for him to have her turn into an even worse version of herself?
I know all artists have their own visions and reasons for certain story beats that maybe fans don’t have the right take on, but his treatment of Chloe was such a waste and what made me give up on the show
From what I've seen, I'm about 80% sure season 2 had different writers.
But yeah, how is he just going to ignore that they already did?
They still could have salvaged her after the betrayal, but they then proceeded to get rid of her depth which stunted the chance for true recovery.
@@margeryojije7862 The show should at least have the tact to treat it like a tragedy to at least salvage audience investment.
I’m convinced Thomas Astruc has the mind set of “don’t listen to the haters, listen to the lovers” mentality.
Cant wait for the new season and ur episode reviews this season gonna be interesting
Also, my take on Chloé like I have done a long time ago in another of your video, Smarty. But this time a bit more darker and depressing after reflection and a few episodes of Season 2 rewatched.
When I saw Chloé's sensitive side in Season 2. I could see that she is depressed inside of her but she tries to hide it in her bratty side.
On this base, this is how Chloé character development could have happened:
In Season 3, as Chloé is seeing Adrien drifting more to Kagami, she desperatly tries to hold him back since he is the closest thing (after Sabrina) to ressemble as a trustful friend. Chloé's bipolarity is slowly reaching her breaking point, she is becoming more and more frustrated and enraged on herself. It worries Sabrina but Chloé refuses her help as she becomes isolated.
Marinette who has first dismissed Chloé state, seeing her as more annoying than usual could see that something is wrong with her. As she observes, Chloé becomes more and more uncontrollably frustrated, isolated, enraged and desperate. This attitude worries our protagonist and she tries to help the blonde, especially after the advice of Tikki to make sure that Hawkmoth doesn't try to possess her, but Chloé rejects Marinette's help.
Lila seeing that Chloé is on the brink will seize this opportunity to utterly broke her, eliminating a rival to reach Adrien.
This is a situation like in the Miraculeur episode with a few differences: Ladybug tells Cat Noir about Chloé's worrying behavior and the latter advice her to talk immediately to the blonde as Ladybug, since Chloé only listen to her. Lila lies to Chloé that Ladybug will come to her in the next Akumatisation, as Chloé cling desperatly on this last hope, now very anxious and panicked. But as the Sugar Sentimonster attacks, our Super-hero duo doesn't have the time to talk to Chloé. As Chloé realised that Lila lied to her and that Ladybug didn't come back with the Bee Miraculous. Chloé simply snapped. She quickly switches from mad laugh, to rage state and tears of despair, convinced now that nobody will save her; all under the shock of a Sabrina who has hard time to understand what is happening. Hawkmoth seize this occasion to Akumatise her, to the horror of our duo, realised they have arrived too late. After a fight against a completely lunatic and mad akumatized Chloé. When Ladybug frees her and tries to reassure her, it is already too late. Chloé has broken and she is just now a void, hopeless husk of her former self.
As Sabrina reveals to both heroes that it was Lila who has been telling the lie, Adrien decided he has enough and confronts Lila about her lie, along with Marinette who was furious to see Lila making such a d*ck move (or [Redacted] move since Lila is a girl). Now cornered, Adrien says to Lila that he will never, NEVER love a liar who has make his friend broke. While Marinette makes herself the mission to reveal to the classmates how much of a b*tch Lila is.
Chloé on her side is inside of the hotel, alone, inside of the void of her own hopelessness. She doesn't react to her environnement. After a few days, she resumes her "life" by coming back at school. But she is apathic, unresponsive and doesn't react to the acts of her classmates who tries to get something from her. Miss Bustier (which I make her a bit of expert in psychology in this story) says to her students that Chloé is in a phase where her mind tries to cope with this depression state. To try to get her back, the classmates has to bring her in numerous activities, if Chloé does something, they have to always respond with the affirmative, etc. Until Chloé reach a quite stable state of mind again.
Between Akumatisations, flirts and other things. Chloé slowly exits the void. Participating more and more to the activities with her classmates but especially Marinette.
As the end of Season 3 approaches, Chloé finally open her heart to her classmates about her issues, while making a heartfelt apology to her classmates to have been such a brat. And so, they forgive her, who gives hope back to Chloé.
The blonde clumsily tries to remake ties with her new large group of friends. But now, she doesn't dare to get angry or try to give her opinion, since she is afraid to fall back in her bratty side.
But the tide turn for her in the showdown of Season 3 in two parts: First, when her mom comes back. Chloé realise how horrible her parents are. When Audrey tries to order her around like usual, Chloé snapped and liberate all her rage against her parents, saying that she hates them to make her life so miserable. Audrey is pissed to see Chloé lashing out against her and beat her up, calling her a failure while André is too cowardly to intervene. Audrey is taken in custody while Chloé is placed away. Despite her injuries, Chloé feel free from a weight and she is someone new, more confident on herself and happy.
A few days later, Hawkmoth tries to coerce Chloé in his cause but Chloé punch him as a response since he is the one to have taken advantage of her state. Hawkmoth, furious to have been punched out by a little girl, takes her as a hostage and use her as leverage to try to get the Miraculous Box.
Our group of heroes arrive in a trial to save her but Cat Noir has another idea, he tosses the Bee Mirauculous, Chloé catches it and become Queen Bee again. After a rude fight, Hawkmoth barely manage to escape by the help of Mayura.
After the fight, Ladybug proposed to Chloé to take back her role of Queen Bee, seeing it that she deserved it now. But the blonde girl refuses, because she cannot wear a costume already stained of her past mistakes. Also, she cannot follow the role of super-hero anymore since she has learned the morning of Hawkmoth's attack that she will join a boarding school since now that her parents has lost custody of her. So, this is heartfelt goodbye to Ladybug.
In the civilian part, Chloé leave for the boarding school. Even if it's still inside Paris, she won't be able to see much of her classmates but she is still close them now she has their numeros.
This is how Season 3 ends in my canon. Chloé will be absent for the most part of Season 4 while Zoe, her sister joins her in the boarding school after decision of the tribunes since Audrey has also lost custody of Zoe. Here, the Season 4 will still present Zoe as the new Queen Bee or Vesperia, but also, the complicated relationship between the two sisters. As a Chloé who tries with clumsiness to adjust with her new life while helping Zoé in her role as a super-hero, Zoé on her side tries to approach Chloé as she let go her mask of bratiness she always wore while trying to integrate the group of Chloé's friends.
For Season 5... I didn't reflected much yet, since I have no idea. But hey, what do you think?
I'm not an abuse victim but the way Astruc speaks of Chloe, as an abuse victim is gross
I don’t think the failed redemption arc for Chloe was planned and was last minute when Thomas saw they were making Chloe sympathetic and redeeming her and since she is apparently based off his bully Thomas probably just didn’t want to comprehend or think that there is much more going on with his bully that he doesn’t want to think about
I seriously don't like Astruc.. like bro cannnot handle criticism that his show is bad and needs improvement. Goes so far to prove a point that he literally character assassinates Chole cause she was based on his school bully. Like instead of promoting a positive message to kids that one can still try to change for the good even if their actions weren't good as long as they put effort in it, he instead proves that people can't change. Chole is a child so I think her changing for the better would have been a good message from the show. Astruc calls out on the fans for being sexist if they question why Marinette is the mc instead of Adrien despite said fans giving valid points. However, giving death threats to him is just horrible so at least I an give him that
“People can’t change” isn’t an inherently bad lesson to learn, not even for Miraculous. But it was a bad lesson to show through Chloe.
@@redballoon9007 exactly
@@redballoon9007 Yeah, why didn't they use Lila? The message could have been people can change but some people don't want to. And Lila didn't show any sign of wanting redemption.
I mostly find it sad aswell because in my opinion,
Astruc originally was a good writer and had a good plan for the show,
but after getting lots of hate after Chloe's redemption arc he purposefully made the show everything the fans didn't want as a kind of revenge and if that is true thats just really really sad because the show could have been so good.
To me the problem with miraculous ladybug is that the writers spend too much time trying to build up the romance between Adrien and Marinette when actuality they should have been spending most of their time trying to build up more of the hawk moth versus the heroes ark rather than focus on a relationship between teenagers because in my opinion the whole ark between cat noir ladybug and hawk moth felt more like a secondary plot compared to the big romance plot between our main heroes which ended up fumbling in the last season because it wasn't put together properly what the creators should have done was put the romance as a secondary plot and focus a little bit more on hawk moth versus ladybug and cat noir as the main plot but now Astruc has to be obsessed with a romance between children
How does your MAIN PLOT get overshadowed?
@@littlebabyman8494 I honestly have no idea
S2 is the peak miraculous season, everything went downhill afterwards
Chloe got a development arc, Luka and Adrien are actual character, Marinette is simping but not stalking
Miraculous is the show I am always recommending to every beginner writers. One of the best way to learn good storywriting is by analyzing bad ones.
I watched the show up to Season 3 then I dropped out for two reasons.
The first was the downfall/relapse of Chloe, and the second one was the downplaying of setups of season 2 for the sake of the sacred Status Quo.
In my opinion, Astruc never wanted Chloe to have a redemption arc, that was something pushed by other people (probably Jeremy Zag) which explains why she became downright sociopathic in Season 4 onwards. I believe that Lila was meant to take Chloe's place as the school bully after she became an anti-heroine or something, but Astruc vetoed that, explaining why Lila had very sporatic appearances throughtout season 3 and 4.
Don’t you mean Chloe
1:20
I think this one of the few exceptions where the fanfics, the actually thought-out ones that aren't just a series of thousand-word ship happy oneshots on AO3, generally seem to be more consistent with characterization, and plot progression than the actual source material.
I think what makes the Chloe arc so awful in the eyes of the fans is that they basically introduced the 'final result' of her redemption, as a separate character, in Zoe. Granted, I love Zoe, and I think they could have still introduced her at a later time and explored a positive sibling relationship, but Chloe could have been redeemed still. Besides. They give some very minor characters Miraculous, if they still wanted to give Zoe a Miraculous, or to make Vesperia, they could have written one of the Miraculous for Chloe instead. Could have made for an interesting arc. Chloe's redemption was by far one of the best parts of the show until they ruined it.
0:44 At least we can all agree on one thing: the Merinett and Adrien ship is horrible.
They're cuter in the netflix movie canon
@@MyStellarSpace Movie right, the serie? It became a trash.
@@Loayzablog Yeah I stopped caring about Adriennette in the series.
They are more chill in the netflix movie