I tried the 12 hole injectors in an 4AFE and 1GFE, it works to improve engine efficiency and response. I doubt it gave me any more hp, Fuel economy has increased slightly according to the onboard tripmeter and for me to notice. Could also be due to the new injectors i used but the 12 hole injectors should make a better atomized fuel spray, so it makes sense. Even toyota used them on the latest version of their 1NZ engine.
@@mohdebr2556 Sorry for the late response , I used the blue 23209-21040. There are blue and green either should work. In the 1GFE they should be plug and play , for the 4afe I changed the injertor connecto too
@@tofudelivery8101 I used the same yaris injectors PN 23209-21040 , you also need to get the connectors and replace them. Running really nice for more than 2 years now.
At 50% throttle the advantage of 12 hole has already greatly diminished. It's under 50% where the difference is made. I've run a set for about a month now on my 05 tundra, there is a real difference at part throttle below 50%, below 3k rpm, you use less throttle to do the same work. There's also the 2.5mpg increase, which I throughly enjoy, so definitely not the same.
better (smoother) idle, and 1-3 MPG better in the 7 different vehicles ive personally installed 12 hole injectors into. other than that, no real difference that i could tell. its a great "upgraded" repair if you need injectors but not really worth swapping for the hell of it.
@@nathan00campbell I plan on keeping my truck for many years so I'll take a smoother 1-3 mpg for the hell of it, easy return in investment. Most people won't tell the difference, but I get a great sense of warmth and well being for having the best tool for the job. 4 hole injectors are blunt instruments.
@@JP-ug1xr i agree, like the truck in my photo, its a 2008 ram 1500 with the 3.7 v6. just got my Denso 12582704 injectors in this afternoon. they are going in the truck in the morning. got a cylinder 3 misfire, good compression. new plugs and coils. sooo time for injectors. im betting the new 12 hole injectors feel much better than the tired 180k mile 4 hole oem ones. its not only the holes that make a difference. the Denso's are far better in general than the OEM ones for mopar. like you i plan on keeping it around a while so knowing it needs new ones. why not upgrade and gain some MPG. its the only logical choice.
I’m going with a 12 hole because of availability and matching the rated impedance and flow rate of my stock injectors. I don’t want to run the stock injectors because they have an angle on the end that is designed to compensate for the angle injectors are introduced in to the factory intake manifold. I have a different intake manifold on it from stock that holds the injectors parallel with the airstream. Stock injectors a 22.6lbs/hr at 3 bar 2 hole split stream 12 ohms and the closest match I can find were a 12 ohm 22.8lb/hr at 3 bar. They just so happened to be a 12 hole. I did want to maintain a split stream pattern for the two intake valves.
Doesn't the computer need to adjust for mpg. maybe that only helps in low load metering. But maybe the A/F ratio is always adjusted to maintain the 14.-whatever at all times in closed loop after warmed up
Subbed. I just saw your RAM ball mount. I've been looking for something like that for years!!! Much appreciated. I'll have to finish this video when I get home.
Hot headers do work better which is why exhaust wraps exist. They localize heat to the specific component allowing for scavenging with a nice byproduct of insulating nearby components from the heat.
i have toyota aristo 2jzgte single turbo with megasquirt ms3x ecu i replaced the stock pink 440cc 4 holes injectors with the stock sti 565cc 12 holes blue injectors i found that i can make the engine idle leaner at 16 to 18 afr without stalling compared to the stock 2jz 440cc where it would run rough and stalls also i get better fuel economy at highway speeds where i can get 16 to 17 afr at low load and vacuum area of fuel cells... just replacing the injector without tuning will not make power or better fuel economy you will need to tune the ecu to unlock the benefits of the better atomization injectors
Fun video, and I agree with the fuel injector findings, but for me I went with 12 hole for a more consistent burn and maybe better gas mileage and I use K&N air filters, not to get more power, but to never buy another air filter again. I'm as cheap as dirt dot come. ;) Thanks for posting cool info.
Thank You for the great information. During the test you mentioned you were also mentioning fuel flow. Do you have the figures on the fuel flow during these tests?
First off, great video, it is cool to see real world vehicles and these types off comparisons, and not just full blown performance tuned modifications tested...... But here is the problem, modern factory ECU's are capable of adjusting multiple different parameters of the vehicles operation within windows that it has "learned". So if it has compensated for something, then it is changed, it may take some time for it to "learn" it's new "limits"? In most all out performance dyno runs they are controlling the ECU so this variable is removed, or accounted for, however you want to look at it. This doesn't falsify your testing, it just complicates it a bit.
Agreed on all points. We didn't experience/measure any of the post-learned performance in this test, although we were measuring O2/AFR sensor readings and fuel trims/fuel flow. Perhaps there's a minute difference to be had after the learning is completed, but I expected to see some evidence of a change somewhere for that learning to produce a meaningful change. I'd love to see someone do a more controlled and longer-duration test of fuel consumption and Brake Specific Fuel Consumption for this exact scenario to see if a 2UZ not released with 12 hole injectors can realize any measurable difference from the 4 hole-12 hole swap.
the only change ive ever seen going to the 12 hole injectors in 2 dodge trucks and 5 jeeps that ive owned and done it to was only these two things. better (smoother) idle, and 1-3 MPG better under easy driving. that's it. for me its worth it if you are needing to change the injectors anyway. not really worth it to do just for the heck of it. i view it as sort of an improved maintenance repair.
@Darkjedi351 6 days ago now i just did my 08 ram with the 3.7 v6. went from 15mpg average back to 18mpg. got a cat problem so once that is sorted it should get back to normal. they do help, but they do not cause bigger power numbers, just a smoother cleaner burn. what MPG are you getting out of that v10 now
If the injector duty cycle goes above 25% then you are experiencing fuel stand-off, which the dyno bloke mentions. Over 25% duty cycle the fuel just pools on the back of the valve diminishing positive effects of fuel atomisation. The higher the duty cycle the worse it would be. Probably why you see slight gains at lower rpm for the 12 hole. Do you know what duty cycle they were running? The industry has moved to direct injection as they are less limited by duty cycle and fuel stand off.
K&N filter may not increase power due to your engine setup, the airflow and the air speed If the stock design already no restrictrion then increase airflow will not help Also the air speed, the filter decide the air speed inside the intake tube from filter to manifold. more restriction means engine vaccum easier to suck the air in (result in better low end torque). It just like a narrow vs thick drinking straw, thick has high flow if you use more power to suck in. In this case your engine vaccum may not have such power to suck more air or even less than stock casuing power decrease That's why force induction can increase power by pushing air into the engine rather than engine vaccum itself
i have good result with 12 holes denso ev14 those i used in 6v60 engine also fuel consumption decreased dramatically although rochester were well maintained but really ev14 better than ev1.
It comes to no surprise to me about the K&N air filter bcz many TH-camrs have tested this like mighty car mods. It always decreases power. The 12 hole injector mod doesn't make sense to do because if the flow rate is the same then it won't matter how many holes the injectors have. If you're trying to increase flow rate of injectors, then you also have to tune the ECU. Same goes for exhaust and intake mods. A simple injector, intake or exhaust mod by itself isn't going to add power.
Its because of fuel mixing. The theory is, the O2 sensor sees the same amount of leftover O2 with less overall fuel injected. However I'd imagine you'd need higher fuel pressure and less pulsewidth to keep atomization per hole equal to stock. As far as the k&n goes, way too many people place the "cold air" in places where it sucks in hot air....
i got a question if I have oem injector 1pin hole @ 243.8cc p/m and swap for 4pin hole 232.1cc p/m, will the 4pin hole spray more fuel than the single pin hole? can the 5.9L magnum benefit from 4pinhole vs the oem 1pin hole?
Going from an 1 hole to 4 hole injector might yield better results. And i think youre contradicting yourself with the kn filter, saying it doesnt filter as well and makes less power. Alot of dyno runs prove the opposite of what you found out. So who’s right? I dont know. Having wrenched on cars for many years without a dyno to use for testing, the only thing i can add is that freer flowing filters definitely increase the induction sound with all else but the filter being the same. Which goes hand in hand with it being worse at filtering i would think. My understanding of air flow is that the less obstacles there is, the better. But i could be wrong
I am about to go ahead and change out my old injectors in my lexus as I am doing a valve cover gasket repair and going to have access anyway. The ones I ordered have 4 holes, the ones in the car are 12 holes. Should I worry about replacing them with 4 holes at all?
I wouldn't worry about the hole quantity, but I would be more concerned with the injector reliability. OEM Toyota/Lexus/Denso is way more expensive than aftermarket for a good reason. New aftermarket is far less reliable than old genuine OEM, IMO.
Good question. 255 vs 250. I didn't show comparisons of fuel flow per power, but I did run those. In those data sets, fuel flow assumed by ecu was adjusted for the 255/250 flow rates.
During one of the two changes, yes. Ideally, we would have reset ecu, then driven for a hour or something, but limitations of dyno time made that impractical. We watched fuel trim to see if the ecu needed to correct anything for the new parts. As memory serves, we were unable to see any change in the afs (factory wideband of sorts), o2, fuel trim, etc...
Thanks for doing this. I was about to pull the trigger on the 12 hole injectors. I'll leave well enough alone
I tried the 12 hole injectors in an 4AFE and 1GFE, it works to improve engine efficiency and response. I doubt it gave me any more hp, Fuel economy has increased slightly according to the onboard tripmeter and for me to notice. Could also be due to the new injectors i used but the 12 hole injectors should make a better atomized fuel spray, so it makes sense. Even toyota used them on the latest version of their 1NZ engine.
Interesting, I am thinking of upgrading my 1GFE injectors, what is the part number of the injectors you used?
What were the injectors called for the 4A-FE? Would you be willing to share thank you
@@mohdebr2556 Sorry for the late response , I used the blue 23209-21040. There are blue and green either should work. In the 1GFE they should be plug and play , for the 4afe I changed the injertor connecto too
@@tofudelivery8101 I used the same yaris injectors PN 23209-21040 , you also need to get the connectors and replace them. Running really nice for more than 2 years now.
At 50% throttle the advantage of 12 hole has already greatly diminished. It's under 50% where the difference is made. I've run a set for about a month now on my 05 tundra, there is a real difference at part throttle below 50%, below 3k rpm, you use less throttle to do the same work. There's also the 2.5mpg increase, which I throughly enjoy, so definitely not the same.
better (smoother) idle, and 1-3 MPG better in the 7 different vehicles ive personally installed 12 hole injectors into. other than that, no real difference that i could tell. its a great "upgraded" repair if you need injectors but not really worth swapping for the hell of it.
@@nathan00campbell I plan on keeping my truck for many years so I'll take a smoother 1-3 mpg for the hell of it, easy return in investment. Most people won't tell the difference, but I get a great sense of warmth and well being for having the best tool for the job. 4 hole injectors are blunt instruments.
@@JP-ug1xr i agree, like the truck in my photo, its a 2008 ram 1500 with the 3.7 v6. just got my Denso 12582704 injectors in this afternoon. they are going in the truck in the morning. got a cylinder 3 misfire, good compression. new plugs and coils. sooo time for injectors. im betting the new 12 hole injectors feel much better than the tired 180k mile 4 hole oem ones. its not only the holes that make a difference. the Denso's are far better in general than the OEM ones for mopar. like you i plan on keeping it around a while so knowing it needs new ones. why not upgrade and gain some MPG. its the only logical choice.
Gaining 1-3mph and increased throttle response below 3000 would be a big deal.@@nathan00campbell
My o1 jeep grand cherokee 4.0 with 12 hole injectors gained 3 mpg and a much smoother idle as well as partial throttle enter responce.
I’m going with a 12 hole because of availability and matching the rated impedance and flow rate of my stock injectors. I don’t want to run the stock injectors because they have an angle on the end that is designed to compensate for the angle injectors are introduced in to the factory intake manifold. I have a different intake manifold on it from stock that holds the injectors parallel with the airstream. Stock injectors a 22.6lbs/hr at 3 bar 2 hole split stream 12 ohms and the closest match I can find were a 12 ohm 22.8lb/hr at 3 bar. They just so happened to be a 12 hole. I did want to maintain a split stream pattern for the two intake valves.
Doesn't the computer need to adjust for mpg. maybe that only helps in low load metering. But maybe the A/F ratio is always adjusted to maintain the 14.-whatever at all times in closed loop after warmed up
Subbed. I just saw your RAM ball mount. I've been looking for something like that for years!!! Much appreciated. I'll have to finish this video when I get home.
Hot headers do work better which is why exhaust wraps exist. They localize heat to the specific component allowing for scavenging with a nice byproduct of insulating nearby components from the heat.
Thanks ih8t mud members n yotamd and anybody who has part in this vid. I always wondered about injectors upgrade myth busted lol
Thanks for playing scientist for us!
i have toyota aristo 2jzgte single turbo with megasquirt ms3x ecu i replaced the stock pink 440cc 4 holes injectors with the stock sti 565cc 12 holes blue injectors i found that i can make the engine idle leaner at 16 to 18 afr without stalling compared to the stock 2jz 440cc where it would run rough and stalls also i get better fuel economy at highway speeds where i can get 16 to 17 afr at low load and vacuum area of fuel cells... just replacing the injector without tuning will not make power or better fuel economy you will need to tune the ecu to unlock the benefits of the better atomization injectors
Uprating to GTR coils allowed me to run leaner too
This is the info I was after! How did the timing and mixture change while flat out?
4 -12 holes help for little pressure clean inside internal plus they help if get clogged & still run
what is the part number of the DENSO fuel injector for the Lexus LX470 with the 12 hole
Fun video, and I agree with the fuel injector findings, but for me I went with 12 hole for a more consistent burn and maybe better gas mileage and I use K&N air filters, not to get more power, but to never buy another air filter again. I'm as cheap as dirt dot come. ;) Thanks for posting cool info.
Thank You for the great information. During the test you mentioned you were also mentioning fuel flow. Do you have the figures on the fuel flow during these tests?
First off, great video, it is cool to see real world vehicles and these types off comparisons, and not just full blown performance tuned modifications tested......
But here is the problem, modern factory ECU's are capable of adjusting multiple different parameters of the vehicles operation within windows that it has "learned". So if it has compensated for something, then it is changed, it may take some time for it to "learn" it's new "limits"? In most all out performance dyno runs they are controlling the ECU so this variable is removed, or accounted for, however you want to look at it. This doesn't falsify your testing, it just complicates it a bit.
Agreed on all points. We didn't experience/measure any of the post-learned performance in this test, although we were measuring O2/AFR sensor readings and fuel trims/fuel flow. Perhaps there's a minute difference to be had after the learning is completed, but I expected to see some evidence of a change somewhere for that learning to produce a meaningful change. I'd love to see someone do a more controlled and longer-duration test of fuel consumption and Brake Specific Fuel Consumption for this exact scenario to see if a 2UZ not released with 12 hole injectors can realize any measurable difference from the 4 hole-12 hole swap.
Nice to see someone test this, but with the filters test was the k&n dirty or mostly clean?
the only change ive ever seen going to the 12 hole injectors in 2 dodge trucks and 5 jeeps that ive owned and done it to was only these two things. better (smoother) idle, and 1-3 MPG better under easy driving. that's it. for me its worth it if you are needing to change the injectors anyway. not really worth it to do just for the heck of it. i view it as sort of an improved maintenance repair.
@Darkjedi351 6 days ago now i just did my 08 ram with the 3.7 v6. went from 15mpg average back to 18mpg. got a cat problem so once that is sorted it should get back to normal. they do help, but they do not cause bigger power numbers, just a smoother cleaner burn. what MPG are you getting out of that v10 now
True. I see better gas mileage at idle and easy driving but again, if I have to accelerate, it does take a while to catch up.
Well, considering 5 gallons saved buys a new pack of injectors....
To test the k&n filter you need to have cat back exhaust system,the air going in has to go out as fast!
Also thinking how much faster a 12 hoke would clog up versa a 4.
Thanks for making this video.
Thanks for the info! And get a yotamd key case to whoever’s truck that was!
Haha, funny enough I delivered one to him that day. He broke his other key a couple days before the test!
Good stuff! I was very weary of the salesman on the Toyota groups, saying these make a big difference.
If the injector duty cycle goes above 25% then you are experiencing fuel stand-off, which the dyno bloke mentions. Over 25% duty cycle the fuel just pools on the back of the valve diminishing positive effects of fuel atomisation. The higher the duty cycle the worse it would be. Probably why you see slight gains at lower rpm for the 12 hole. Do you know what duty cycle they were running? The industry has moved to direct injection as they are less limited by duty cycle and fuel stand off.
Very well put together and thorough test video. Nice work!
K&N filter may not increase power due to your engine setup, the airflow and the air speed
If the stock design already no restrictrion then increase airflow will not help
Also the air speed, the filter decide the air speed inside the intake tube from filter to manifold. more restriction means engine vaccum easier to suck the air in (result in better low end torque).
It just like a narrow vs thick drinking straw, thick has high flow if you use more power to suck in.
In this case your engine vaccum may not have such power to suck more air or even less than stock casuing power decrease
That's why force induction can increase power by pushing air into the engine rather than engine vaccum itself
I wonder if this test would yield different results with a non vvti 2uz.
I'm curious as well. My guess is no, but it would be great if someone wanted to test it!
I am installing some 12 hole injectors in my 04 470 this weekend
ShoCkInG results to come? I'm staying put!!! Thank you ahead of time....
Did you ever test fuel consumption? Maybe the benefit might be improved MPG
I am pretty sure this is the main advantage , it might be just 1mpg but its worth it for the price if you are replacing injectors
Wonder what the fuel consumption difference is between the two? Not super concerned with power but more so MPG's on a 100 series.
According to the ECU's estimate of fuel flow, they looked similar. I'll post up some graphs of that data on the thread on ih8mud.
This is all I really care about with this upgrade....all about that mpg
How the fuel economy looks
Could you share the part number of the 12 hole injector for the 4.7 Toyota 2uz?
I just bought some from dirty deeds industry. Ran me about $350 for the set of 8
Do another test, and check fuel efficiency. There are alot of yes-no opinions, but l prefer facts…
this is a good test but on a economy car I have a feeling that on a performance car the difference should be more.
i have good result with 12 holes denso ev14 those i used in 6v60 engine also fuel consumption decreased dramatically although rochester were well maintained but really ev14 better than ev1.
It comes to no surprise to me about the K&N air filter bcz many TH-camrs have tested this like mighty car mods. It always decreases power.
The 12 hole injector mod doesn't make sense to do because if the flow rate is the same then it won't matter how many holes the injectors have.
If you're trying to increase flow rate of injectors, then you also have to tune the ECU. Same goes for exhaust and intake mods.
A simple injector, intake or exhaust mod by itself isn't going to add power.
Its because of fuel mixing. The theory is, the O2 sensor sees the same amount of leftover O2 with less overall fuel injected. However I'd imagine you'd need higher fuel pressure and less pulsewidth to keep atomization per hole equal to stock. As far as the k&n goes, way too many people place the "cold air" in places where it sucks in hot air....
i got a question if I have oem injector 1pin hole @ 243.8cc p/m and swap for 4pin hole 232.1cc p/m, will the 4pin hole spray more fuel than the single pin hole? can the 5.9L magnum benefit from 4pinhole vs the oem 1pin hole?
what about motor timing was it left stock ? did it change when swapped with the 12 hole injectors ?
No difference at all. The timing data for every wot run was right on to of each other.
Do you have a part # for the 12 hole?
Going from an 1 hole to 4 hole injector might yield better results. And i think youre contradicting yourself with the kn filter, saying it doesnt filter as well and makes less power. Alot of dyno runs prove the opposite of what you found out. So who’s right? I dont know. Having wrenched on cars for many years without a dyno to use for testing, the only thing i can add is that freer flowing filters definitely increase the induction sound with all else but the filter being the same. Which goes hand in hand with it being worse at filtering i would think. My understanding of air flow is that the less obstacles there is, the better. But i could be wrong
Engineering explained YT channel also got same results w paper vs k and n filter
Damn that’s a huge bug that met it’s end in the middle of that windshield.
I am about to go ahead and change out my old injectors in my lexus as I am doing a valve cover gasket repair and going to have access anyway. The ones I ordered have 4 holes, the ones in the car are 12 holes. Should I worry about replacing them with 4 holes at all?
I wouldn't worry about the hole quantity, but I would be more concerned with the injector reliability. OEM Toyota/Lexus/Denso is way more expensive than aftermarket for a good reason. New aftermarket is far less reliable than old genuine OEM, IMO.
Both have the same CC/min right ?
Good question. 255 vs 250. I didn't show comparisons of fuel flow per power, but I did run those. In those data sets, fuel flow assumed by ecu was adjusted for the 255/250 flow rates.
a diferença esta em absorção completa de forma uniforme dentro da camara de combustão ... não formando assim porças dentro da camara de combustão ...
Hey anyone know about which injectors I can use for a 2.4 L Honda accord 04 12 hole injectors?
Did you reset ecu after change injectors ?
During one of the two changes, yes. Ideally, we would have reset ecu, then driven for a hour or something, but limitations of dyno time made that impractical. We watched fuel trim to see if the ecu needed to correct anything for the new parts. As memory serves, we were unable to see any change in the afs (factory wideband of sorts), o2, fuel trim, etc...
@@user-df1gh8le6l
I asked because a lot of people do hardware upgrade but they don't reset ECU.
Good job!!!
These might be nice to replace my 4-hole 30 year old injectors.
need hi flow cats?
im more interested in fuel mileage as for changing injectors, not horsepower , not torque fuel mileage
The loss of power with kn isnt the same in all vehicles and negligible with the advantage of saving money...maybe even reducing waste.
So the only thing it makes go faster is the money from your wallet..?
JohnnySixString and stickers
Doesn't realy compare because the ecu will pull fuel from the 12holes to maintain AFR. Check the duty cycle of both
Well, now i know i wont be paying for these 12 hole injectors!