Much respect to you guys for having a nuanced discussion and not just full on roasting the situation. And even more to Sebastian Park for being willing to come on the show and discuss, face the heat, explain his position etc
@@OMGitsjustperfect yeah, but his point about “scrims have changed and are more intense so we do less” is complete dog shit in the face of no international success.
Richard absolutely roasting Sebastian, but I think Monte did a more than fair job of coming to the rescue to help try and explain Sebastian's points a bit more and not get absolutely run over even though Monte clearly doesn't believe in it personally.
I really want to see that Phantomlord episode. Dude apparently won his lawsuit against Twitch and some people seem to think that means he has been innocent all along, including on the CSGO Shuffle ownership stuff.
Well he owned a part of csgo lotto, the jury just ruled he didn't do anything against Twitch TOS so they were in the wrong and they broke their contract by banning him.
@@aaronneilson9414 I mean I completely agree he's an absolute scumbag. I'm not even completely convinced the jury made the right decision. That's why I said specifically that the "the jury just ruled he didn't do anything against Twitch TOS so they were in the wrong and they broke their contract by banning him."
Really good episode. Thorin made some really great points on alternatives on how you could start a credited program. I taught myself to code to get into a tech job and MOOC (massive open online courses) are very scammy. There are so many people making money off people desperate to switch jobs. When I saw this esports certificate course, it felt very similar. I liked Thorin's point when he said to create something that you would use to hire people directly at your own company. Work with someone at another company and expand it. If something like that ever existed for tech I would have jumped on that immediately even if it wasn't a huge company.
I liked the response of Sebastion as well. Thorins idea is a good way to proceed if you want to be the one who influences the development the most. You are 100% certain your point of view is the way to go and you dont want to have it any other way - than it is alright to build it up this way. But even if I'm 100% certain of my idea i often think that my point of view is just that - mine. As a small or not so small piece of a certain environment I would disregard anything else. But i would be rather just an observer who helps along the way than the dictator. Since alot of mediocrity is common i would say it probably is more beneficial to go with your own idea, but in theory/ ideal situation the broader approach should be more fitting overall. I think it is as well a question of your character on how you would proceed. Despite this sub discussion - overall I'm no fan of certificates whatsoever. In my experience they are bullshit. They are either to random and fail to portait true skill or the whole premise is questionable and they are close to as scam.
There was literally a dude on the competitive overwatch subreddit posting stats that got hired by blizzard. Sure if you don't reach out or don't put your work out there you won't get hired, but I don't think a certification would help that.
how in the earth you can murder somebody that brutally but at the sametime being like brother or a gentleman supporting the dude. this must be the best journalism i habe ever seen anywhere in all my life. this shiw is banging!!!
I never heard about this topic before I watched this episode. Then again I am also not on Reddit or on social media... always interesting to hear these indepth things about esport
If the dude who wants to set up the "certificate" and be responsible for it doesn't even know what the difference between networking and nepotism is then I immediately don't trust that person with anything. There is so much bullshit going on in esports right now and this spikes zero confidence honestly.,
It's intriguing that he studied decision making at Yale and yet he's made a number of poor decisions. To solve the problem of too many con men in esports he has created another con. You only get one first impression and while he said that he's made a mistake, and refunding the money makes me lean towards giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think everyone will be more wary of his next venture.
I work as a political advisor in the Danish parliament and your discussion about why the charlatans, as it were, don’t go into politics was strikingly close to the lense through which I’ve come to view the E-sports scene as a whole. Following the E-sports scene for a many, many years now, the interaction between people like yourselves (iconoclasts, as Richard put it), the corporations, the teams, the leagues and the Twitterverse is like watching a somewhat more amateurish or at least less severe version of the interplay between the political sphere of Christiansborg (Danish parliament), the journalists, the talking heads, the lobbyists and the public in my own work. It’s interesting that Richard believes many of the people you deem charlatans would like to go into politics but lack the ability, the opportunity or whatever. It would explain why viewing E-sports from within a political institution gives me this vaguely familiar feeling. As if I’m watching a confused and faded mirage of my everyday life, except instead of military intervention, immigration or the economy it’s certificates for E-sports employees that are making people pissed, lol.
That is such an interesting observation, thank you for sharing that. I'm often wondering of the inner workings of politics, especially because of how much distrust exists in the general populations of many countries. So many jaded people think politicians are lying scammers that have no connection to reality, they are incompetent and their solutions are stupid. And sure, the truth is probably that most fields are filled with mediocrity, because most of us are mediocre. And to survive in politics, some personalities may suit better. But I have a hard time believing all of us from the outside could possibly have a nuanced understanding of how it is and why. I respect your time and expect no answer to this, but if you have time I would love to hear more about this. To your comparison: did you mean that E-sports is a amateurish version of politics because many politicans are similar to the charlatans of E-sports?
@@Mannelitoable Well, to be honest I have the same feelings towards the issue of "every politician is a scammer" as I do towards the analysis of our three horsemen here. While I respect them as some of the absolute best talking heads and rarely watch anyone else, what I enjoy is their analysis and cold hard arguments. The banter... I like some of it, but I could do without the constant, unsupported claims that everyone else are idiots and/or have malign intentions. It reminds me too much of journalists in my own world, who will make claims just like that in situations where *I know* they're talking out of their ass and haven't done the work or research necessary to know the actual reasons by whatever they're commenting on. It's my experience at least in my own work that what the public deems to be outright lies or tactical manipulation in politics is, in reality, often due to one of two things: 1) Incompetence, the main culprit of stupid shit in politics. Watch the British TV-show 'The Thick of It" for a much more accurate representation of how inadequate outcomes in politics actually happen (i.e.: as a result of incomplete information leading to a stupid and hilariously tragic result) rather than House of Cards, where political outcomes are represented as the outcome of clever, evil masterminds, which very few politicians can claim to be. 2) Institutional necessity. This I feel is THE analytical observation that often eludes our horsemen. As independent journalists they are free to criticize perceived stupidity. But if you want to actually do anything in this world you depend upon working with a network of other people, who again depend on consumers, players, media etc. This network of interests creates a spider's web of frameworks that you have to work within to produce results. If you don't, you get nowhere. In essence, it's how democracy and capitalism functions. I believe though I of course do not know it, that this is part of what explains Duncan's experience with Flashpoint and that award show he got out of. Essentially, if you see a stupid decision in politics (or, I suspect, any industry) and track it back to its source, often you will find that from the point of view of the people making that decision, it was rational because they had to take the interests of person a, b, c and interest group d, e and f into account. So most people *answer to someone - often to many someones* whereas Thorin has chosen a path wherein he answers only to himself - his audience has chosen him for this reason. But most people do not have that luxury, especially if they want to make actual changes to whatever scene they act within. You can explain these points by way of TV shows: - The most accurate show about how power works is NOT House of Cards BUT RATHER Game of Thrones - The most accurate show about how everyday-politics work is NOT West Wing BUT RATHER The Thick of It. - The most accurate show about the interplay between systems of government, media, institutions and networks of interest is NOT The Newsroom BUT RATHER The Wire. So that would be my explanation, roughly. Incompetence of the people involved in the decision and/or the premise upon which that decision must be made is often responsible for what an outsider or a journalist perceives as an unwanted outcome. Rather than evil, bias, manipulation or whatever else.
@@nanashi5482 You should always have an expectation for material return based on what you know the value of the work is for anything you do. That's how you avoid getting exploited. Too many people think that compensation is purely based on value but that's false, it's perceived value. You could be making your boss $30 an hour but if your boss never does the numbers, and doesn't want to pay more for you, you'll keep getting $20/hr until you speak up. Same applies if you are self employed in the free market.
47:05 This is exactly why this all feels so disingenuous. It seems like he's just doing the whole hat-in-hand thing "oh we really fucked up" act in order to be able to come back around in a second pass sometime later and get the benefit of the doubt because they admitted their 'fuck ups' this time.
Gotta use this show as an excuse to get the Montecristo / Artosis crossover. Wouldn't happen because of bts beefs I'm guessing but it would be a monster line up.
I think this sounds like it should have been sold to companies in the industry as a pre-interview online test. It would have the same effect with no price barrier, but I guess you can't charge companies per applicant so it's not as profitable.
Something I was surprised the "Horsemen" didn't jump on, was the fact Sebastian kept trying to play at the angle of the certification being a thing that enables less privledged people/groups from breaking into esports, YET conceptually a certification is a filter. It strikes me as disingenuous to try to portray it as an easier way in, when the intent from the start was to stop incompetent people from getting in.
Yeah and those less privilege with brighter minds can get it instead of people like Reginald who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and thinks that everyone is just his pawns to control and have fun
Riot API is open and free, (and there are other data sources or social, geological, etc. data sets). If you are someone who has an interest in modeling data or data analysis, plus you do not have great social skills (which btw, you will have to develop to be a good communicator of data insight), you can use those free resources to build interesting tools, products, outputs, insights, etc. and place that on your Github or personal site or storage account and link on your CV etc. You don't need a certificate. You need a brain and action.
That catch 22 was sick by Thorin and "Why isn't it a scam" by Richard. Good for Monte to remind the viewers Mr. Park is viewed as a positive figure in the space.
Wait, that Bias at the 4 min mark... It's going completely AGAINST what was posted about "increasing diversity"... I'll go back to a point I made on Twitter. There are manipulative people involved with the whole ECI trying to create another avenue of income and to swing it around as a "diversity" project. I'm going to watch the rest of this show, but man I'm even more disappointed in all of this bs.
You have to start somewhere. And usually version 1 isn’t “it”. But you start somewhere and build on it. I’m sure we all respect the initiative. It is a lot more difficult than these guys can now understand after being in the field for so long. Good episode
Not sure why Sebastian pushed this without support from brand name employers. Nobody seeks industry certification because of its educational value, but because employers ask for it as a hiring requirement. If a bunch of employers all listed "esports certification is a plus", you can see how this would've gone another direction
I think that Esports cert should be something later on in the future considering we have so many prominent figures in power positions who make absolutely terrible and stupid decisions in esports, and who come from ridiculous backgrounds.
@@wwanimator hhaha of course you are right, there is certificates and courses required to get into almost every occupation that there is. Why is everyone acting like an eSports cert is a scam when it shows employers who is actually committed via time/money to pursue their passion rather than sending out a thousand free resumes?
@@wwanimator yes, but that was a process that evolved for almost a century. The coaching certification is somewhat recent in European football, you can be the president of a club without any kind of formal degree, many football leagues don't require any kind of certification from the coaches, being a referee isn't even considered a full-time job in many football leagues, you don't have to have any kind of formal degree or certification to cast and comment any football match. You might not like it, but artificially trying to push esports certificates, instead of letting the esports scene grow naturally to the point it becomes obvious such thing is needed, is one of the worst ideas i've ever eard. It is just one of the most braindead concepts i've ever come across. It's like the people proposing this bs don't even understand esports, when they should be some of the people with most knowledge about it.
@@wwanimator First of all that was not what was proposed. But a certication to be obtained for any eSports related job (including this interview). I agree that coaching certificates are a thing, even for managing positions. But are not necessary for being journalists or working at other staff positions (which means an attempt at gatekeeping/monopolizing). Lets be real
I think the word "like" happens about 70 billion times in this video. Fair play to Sebastian for going on but this was a murder. I really struggle to follow his points, he flounders around and fills the air with generalities. I don't think Richards very first question was ever answered, namely "why isn't this a scam?."
Scarlett was the first trans woman in public, that if i hadn't gone to her wiki page, i would've never figured out that she's trans, which is how it should be, we all are equal in front of the keyboard.
Sebastian, you said that your product was for the kind of person who wouldn't reach out in DMs or have a social media following. Someone who needed a boost to get into the industry. So why are you listening to a bunch of people who are active and loud with a social media following? As you said, this product is not for those people. Let the type of people the certificate IS FOR tell you if they want to give you $400 for it or not. Bowing too quickly to the pressure here imo.
It’s so sad to see hard working people like the three above literally take time out of their lives to mentor and spotlight people who are nobodies and had nothing. Who came begging for an opportunity only to turn around and bite the hand that fed them. Where is the loyalty at? These people sound like they’d use their own mother if it meant they could get ahead in the industry. Which now reminds me, I have to make some phone calls and go thank my mentors and people who helped me get to where I’m at.
Btw I hate these kind of ppl that can think they can talk out of anything just by saying: "yea right, I fucked up, that was a bad judgement call" etc. This is a classic manipulation and it's straight up insulting to anyone that wasn adressed by this BS. That guy is a scammer through and through.
Orrrrr, Orr, orrrrrrr, he realised he made a mistake and is explaining his logic and reasoning for why he thought that was the best strategy to go about it.
@@mackoa12 It's definitely possible, I'm not gonna deny it but that whole situation just reeks of trying to save his face and manipulate the perception.
I also remember an interview he had with Travis where he said he would rather be watching a Houston Rocket game than see his team in one of their opening matches a few years ago. This just sounds like a scam to get money out of people.
They sold, not fell out iirc. Falling out would require them to be in bottom 2 for 4 splits straight and then get voted on to stay or leave by all the other franchises.
If Thorin needed to call Richard Lewis for help to Roast people, and Monty was quite positive towards Sebastian, then maybe this certificate isn't that bad idea.
Sebastian Park be like: oh yea, let's go on a show where Thorin and RL can sniff the BS from a mile away and will call me on that on the every possible occasion, what could go wrong??? The stupidity is insane but at least the content is fire ; D
Sounds like a comment from someone who hasn’t learned PR. Seb does this to appeal to the public and he knows the roasts are coming. They all walked away with more respect for Sebastian, like they all said in this episode.
Situation is pretty much win-win for him. If he gets blasted, he can iterate on the idea and cite some of the most respectable people in the industry as the ones who helped improve it through their suggestions. If the idea has merit and Thorin, Monte and RL agree with it, he's got at least some form of backing by said respectable people. Either way, the discussion is at least steered from "haha, paying 400 bucks for a piece of paper, funny meme" to its potential pros and cons and a bit more nuanced discussion. Basically a foot in the door type approach. So I'd not call him stupid for it.
Networking is important in more industries than not. Charisma is just another advantage some people have over others. If it doesn’t come naturally to you cultivate it to the best of your abilities.
Monte and RL, sure. Thorin has said many times he had troubles transitioning from text-based work to interviews and stuff, but eventually trained himself to do it.
Real talk, If you want to talk about American gameplay being a disappointment, and why NA doesn’t compete with China nor Korea in games you should look no further than accessibility of games. The issue that COMPUTER games has with cultivating talent in america is that the cost of entry is too high. Poor people and most importantly poor kids have limited access to a good enough computer with good enough internet to play any of these games. In Korea and China you have PC cafes where you don’t need your own rig or working internet to actually play these games. Poor people themselves have the most to gain from playing these games and breaking into the pros. NA is literally missing out on a whole untapped market of talent. A market of talent that will undoubtedly be more driven than the majority of current pros just based on their own circumstances. To all the orgs crying about NA talent, if you really want to cultivate NA talent, use your money that you flaunt to invest in opening up a personal PC cafe to actually nurture new talent. These guys also shit on the FGC for the open bracket tournaments that they run along with their grassroots mindset. But it’s that same grassroots mindset and focus on community that makes NA competitive with Asia in fighting games. The FGC figured this out a long time ago. They have their own versions of PC cafes for their games which nurtures actual talent. The poorest people will always be amongst the most driven to excel.
Really now? I haven't actually watched a full season of anime for two years, resorted to only reading manga. Most of the stuff I read get animated, and by then, I already dropped them because of how shit they were.
@@nguyentri3608 I mean, the bar set by Hollywood is fairly low (if not abysmally so), so I get what he's saying. Personally though, in the same boat as you are. There are the occasional flashes of brilliance in an otherwise over-saturated field, but it's pretty obvious that the talent in the anime industry is stretched too thin between too many different projects.
Should’ve done this without thorin and Richard. Halfway through this and literally everything they’ve said is pure trash of information I didn’t need to hear that don’t contribute to the problem he’s trying to solve. It’s just constant flaming about the idea of the certificate that he’s already canceled while trying to figure out a solution, their suggestions are so fuckjbg bad it’s so hard to listen to. My god it just keeps going. Monte butts in trying to focus on the real problem then they constantly deviate back to the certificate it’s fucking wild
1:59:35 Echoes your sentiments and they further elaborate their problems Richard and thorin are cohosts so you probably can't do it without them like you said Also the community ask for their thoughts so if you don't like it you can always not watch the future podcasts and I would wonder why you're even watching in the first place
I actually disagree it was so good to see the synergy of Richard and thorin here. I’ve never actually seen them as a duo before (behind the numbers) but will have to check them out
So, Sebastian Park, founder of the eSports certification scheme comes on the podcast to talk about the eSports certificate program that he founded and you complain that the hosts spend the whole time talking about the eSports certificate?
What Sebastian is proposing here in the "networking vs nepotism" section is that people who can not interact socially should be able to get a job in e-sports. Social skills are the basis of social relationships, which a work relationship also is. In any industry social skills are the basis for acquiring contracts, jobs and negotiating salary. Therefore any solution which tries to change this reality is artificial and in turn ultimately destructive. The only real solution would be to make a social program, institution, or whatever else, which would help and encourage skilled individuals in the e-sports sphere to socialize and interact with others in real life, not online, to help them have a healthy social life. Without considering nepotism, one can only get "luck" in an industry through his own initiative, part of which is interacting with others. I personally work in the software development industry and the reality is the same. This should not be changed and instead the bigger social issue of intelligent young people being socially isolated, lacking confidence and unable to interact normally should be addressed.
I really appreciate the horsemen giving the topic more of an intro for this one
Much respect to you guys for having a nuanced discussion and not just full on roasting the situation. And even more to Sebastian Park for being willing to come on the show and discuss, face the heat, explain his position etc
"I'm the mild roaster of the two [...]"
continues to murder the concept
Thanks you Sebastian for coming on and thank you to the horsemen for at points steelmaning his position to better understand and discuss the topic.
Richard "Im the milder roaster" Lewis completly murders young mans hope in front of thousands of people.
Huge props to Seb for coming on the show. It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there
took some stones to come into the dragons den, fair play
I was thinking the exact same thing when Jatt came on crack down to defend NA
@@BON3SMcCOY Jatt actually did a good job though and had some very good arguments
@@OMGitsjustperfect oh yeah he was prepared
@@OMGitsjustperfect yeah, but his point about “scrims have changed and are more intense so we do less” is complete dog shit in the face of no international success.
Yeah big props to Sebastian. Don't agree with him, but really cool of him to go on the show.
Richard absolutely roasting Sebastian, but I think Monte did a more than fair job of coming to the rescue to help try and explain Sebastian's points a bit more and not get absolutely run over even though Monte clearly doesn't believe in it personally.
Thanks you dudes for this. I've been going through some tough times, and I wanted to let you know your content helps pick up my mood.
Hope you're ok.
I really want to see that Phantomlord episode. Dude apparently won his lawsuit against Twitch and some people seem to think that means he has been innocent all along, including on the CSGO Shuffle ownership stuff.
Well he owned a part of csgo lotto, the jury just ruled he didn't do anything against Twitch TOS so they were in the wrong and they broke their contract by banning him.
@@kalebb7170 that doesn’t mean what he did was morally right, just means it wasn’t against their TOS
@@aaronneilson9414 I mean I completely agree he's an absolute scumbag. I'm not even completely convinced the jury made the right decision. That's why I said specifically that the "the jury just ruled he didn't do anything against Twitch TOS so they were in the wrong and they broke their contract by banning him."
I don't know how they think the two are the same. One is about his contact to twitch (lawsuit) and the other is about a series of businesses he owned.
Really good episode. Thorin made some really great points on alternatives on how you could start a credited program. I taught myself to code to get into a tech job and MOOC (massive open online courses) are very scammy. There are so many people making money off people desperate to switch jobs. When I saw this esports certificate course, it felt very similar. I liked Thorin's point when he said to create something that you would use to hire people directly at your own company. Work with someone at another company and expand it. If something like that ever existed for tech I would have jumped on that immediately even if it wasn't a huge company.
You cant put a 3 year education into a couple courses. That alone should say it all
I liked the response of Sebastion as well. Thorins idea is a good way to proceed if you want to be the one who influences the development the most. You are 100% certain your point of view is the way to go and you dont want to have it any other way - than it is alright to build it up this way. But even if I'm 100% certain of my idea i often think that my point of view is just that - mine. As a small or not so small piece of a certain environment I would disregard anything else. But i would be rather just an observer who helps along the way than the dictator. Since alot of mediocrity is common i would say it probably is more beneficial to go with your own idea, but in theory/ ideal situation the broader approach should be more fitting overall. I think it is as well a question of your character on how you would proceed.
Despite this sub discussion - overall I'm no fan of certificates whatsoever. In my experience they are bullshit. They are either to random and fail to portait true skill or the whole premise is questionable and they are close to as scam.
“someone get him a sugar free monster” lol idk why that was so funny to me
i read this before, made it even funnier after he said it
I'm with Richard at 43 mins and still wondering, "why isn't it a scam?" Big yep.
If it wasn't a scam it wouldn't have as many holes as swiss cheese
"American GAMEPLAY has ruined esports" - Monte
Words more true have never been spoken
The "Classic banter" (2:36:48) comment is legendary.
I really like the "pay it forward" mentality
There was literally a dude on the competitive overwatch subreddit posting stats that got hired by blizzard. Sure if you don't reach out or don't put your work out there you won't get hired, but I don't think a certification would help that.
I really tried to understand it but this whole thing just doesn't pass the smell test to me.
stench of a politician
I don't understand how this content can be so good.
This is like my ex explaining how she was at her friend’s house even tho I pick her up at someone’s else
This is some of the best content on esports and I love you guys for it
good on the guy for jumping on to give the other angle but he looked like a dear in the headlights at times
I love the fact that you didn't go easy on the guy
how in the earth you can murder somebody that brutally but at the sametime being like brother or a gentleman supporting the dude.
this must be the best journalism i habe ever seen anywhere in all my life. this shiw is banging!!!
I never heard about this topic before I watched this episode. Then again I am also not on Reddit or on social media...
always interesting to hear these indepth things about esport
Great episode, especially the part at the end where you all talk about the inclusiveness of esports. That part everybody on this world should watch!
If the dude who wants to set up the "certificate" and be responsible for it doesn't even know what the difference between networking and nepotism is then I immediately don't trust that person with anything.
There is so much bullshit going on in esports right now and this spikes zero confidence honestly.,
It's intriguing that he studied decision making at Yale and yet he's made a number of poor decisions. To solve the problem of too many con men in esports he has created another con. You only get one first impression and while he said that he's made a mistake, and refunding the money makes me lean towards giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think everyone will be more wary of his next venture.
good on him for hoping in
I work as a political advisor in the Danish parliament and your discussion about why the charlatans, as it were, don’t go into politics was strikingly close to the lense through which I’ve come to view the E-sports scene as a whole. Following the E-sports scene for a many, many years now, the interaction between people like yourselves (iconoclasts, as Richard put it), the corporations, the teams, the leagues and the Twitterverse is like watching a somewhat more amateurish or at least less severe version of the interplay between the political sphere of Christiansborg (Danish parliament), the journalists, the talking heads, the lobbyists and the public in my own work. It’s interesting that Richard believes many of the people you deem charlatans would like to go into politics but lack the ability, the opportunity or whatever. It would explain why viewing E-sports from within a political institution gives me this vaguely familiar feeling. As if I’m watching a confused and faded mirage of my everyday life, except instead of military intervention, immigration or the economy it’s certificates for E-sports employees that are making people pissed, lol.
every industry behaves in the exact same way nowadays, it’s sad
That is such an interesting observation, thank you for sharing that. I'm often wondering of the inner workings of politics, especially because of how much distrust exists in the general populations of many countries. So many jaded people think politicians are lying scammers that have no connection to reality, they are incompetent and their solutions are stupid. And sure, the truth is probably that most fields are filled with mediocrity, because most of us are mediocre. And to survive in politics, some personalities may suit better. But I have a hard time believing all of us from the outside could possibly have a nuanced understanding of how it is and why. I respect your time and expect no answer to this, but if you have time I would love to hear more about this. To your comparison: did you mean that E-sports is a amateurish version of politics because many politicans are similar to the charlatans of E-sports?
@@Mannelitoable Well, to be honest I have the same feelings towards the issue of "every politician is a scammer" as I do towards the analysis of our three horsemen here. While I respect them as some of the absolute best talking heads and rarely watch anyone else, what I enjoy is their analysis and cold hard arguments. The banter... I like some of it, but I could do without the constant, unsupported claims that everyone else are idiots and/or have malign intentions. It reminds me too much of journalists in my own world, who will make claims just like that in situations where *I know* they're talking out of their ass and haven't done the work or research necessary to know the actual reasons by whatever they're commenting on.
It's my experience at least in my own work that what the public deems to be outright lies or tactical manipulation in politics is, in reality, often due to one of two things:
1) Incompetence, the main culprit of stupid shit in politics. Watch the British TV-show 'The Thick of It" for a much more accurate representation of how inadequate outcomes in politics actually happen (i.e.: as a result of incomplete information leading to a stupid and hilariously tragic result) rather than House of Cards, where political outcomes are represented as the outcome of clever, evil masterminds, which very few politicians can claim to be.
2) Institutional necessity. This I feel is THE analytical observation that often eludes our horsemen. As independent journalists they are free to criticize perceived stupidity. But if you want to actually do anything in this world you depend upon working with a network of other people, who again depend on consumers, players, media etc. This network of interests creates a spider's web of frameworks that you have to work within to produce results. If you don't, you get nowhere. In essence, it's how democracy and capitalism functions. I believe though I of course do not know it, that this is part of what explains Duncan's experience with Flashpoint and that award show he got out of. Essentially, if you see a stupid decision in politics (or, I suspect, any industry) and track it back to its source, often you will find that from the point of view of the people making that decision, it was rational because they had to take the interests of person a, b, c and interest group d, e and f into account. So most people *answer to someone - often to many someones* whereas Thorin has chosen a path wherein he answers only to himself - his audience has chosen him for this reason. But most people do not have that luxury, especially if they want to make actual changes to whatever scene they act within.
You can explain these points by way of TV shows:
- The most accurate show about how power works is NOT House of Cards BUT RATHER Game of Thrones
- The most accurate show about how everyday-politics work is NOT West Wing BUT RATHER The Thick of It.
- The most accurate show about the interplay between systems of government, media, institutions and networks of interest is NOT The Newsroom BUT RATHER The Wire.
So that would be my explanation, roughly. Incompetence of the people involved in the decision and/or the premise upon which that decision must be made is often responsible for what an outsider or a journalist perceives as an unwanted outcome. Rather than evil, bias, manipulation or whatever else.
It is crazy how much people get exploited in Esports. You can spend years working and get almost nothing in return.
U mean like real life?
Bruh that's called any shitty job.
@@nanashi5482 You should always have an expectation for material return based on what you know the value of the work is for anything you do. That's how you avoid getting exploited. Too many people think that compensation is purely based on value but that's false, it's perceived value. You could be making your boss $30 an hour but if your boss never does the numbers, and doesn't want to pay more for you, you'll keep getting $20/hr until you speak up. Same applies if you are self employed in the free market.
Holy moly, and people wonder what’s wrong with NA
This guy strikes me as one of those self flagellating California folks.
didnt team archon turned out to be the SCAMAZ meme , actually funny
47:05 This is exactly why this all feels so disingenuous. It seems like he's just doing the whole hat-in-hand thing "oh we really fucked up" act in order to be able to come back around in a second pass sometime later and get the benefit of the doubt because they admitted their 'fuck ups' this time.
Richard Lewis is the best
BANGER EPISODE
Gotta use this show as an excuse to get the Montecristo / Artosis crossover. Wouldn't happen because of bts beefs I'm guessing but it would be a monster line up.
My favorite episode of Dragon's Den
Really good show! They got the actors in gladiator wrong, but what an amazing episode!
I think this sounds like it should have been sold to companies in the industry as a pre-interview online test. It would have the same effect with no price barrier, but I guess you can't charge companies per applicant so it's not as profitable.
“We need to make esports accessible for people who aren’t comfortable reaching out to people.”
“How do you do that?”
“Pay me $400.”
All I can say is that it has been a pleasure.
Something I was surprised the "Horsemen" didn't jump on, was the fact Sebastian kept trying to play at the angle of the certification being a thing that enables less privledged people/groups from breaking into esports, YET conceptually a certification is a filter.
It strikes me as disingenuous to try to portray it as an easier way in, when the intent from the start was to stop incompetent people from getting in.
Yeah and those less privilege with brighter minds can get it instead of people like Reginald who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and thinks that everyone is just his pawns to control and have fun
Riot API is open and free, (and there are other data sources or social, geological, etc. data sets). If you are someone who has an interest in modeling data or data analysis, plus you do not have great social skills (which btw, you will have to develop to be a good communicator of data insight), you can use those free resources to build interesting tools, products, outputs, insights, etc. and place that on your Github or personal site or storage account and link on your CV etc. You don't need a certificate. You need a brain and action.
banger one
That catch 22 was sick by Thorin and "Why isn't it a scam" by Richard. Good for Monte to remind the viewers Mr. Park is viewed as a positive figure in the space.
Thank really good
great episode
Would love to hear thoughts on the FGC and WePlay
Guys, Monte..please throw this on a bigger channel. Split it how you must but man you would reach more people I’m sure.
33:15 OOOOOhhhhhh yeah!!!!! slap e'm right in the face! Finally someone saying that felt soooo good :)
Wait, that Bias at the 4 min mark... It's going completely AGAINST what was posted about "increasing diversity"...
I'll go back to a point I made on Twitter. There are manipulative people involved with the whole ECI trying to create another avenue of income and to swing it around as a "diversity" project. I'm going to watch the rest of this show, but man I'm even more disappointed in all of this bs.
This one was spicy
FOUR HORSEMEN HYPE
This sounded like a certification business in the likes of Cisco/vmWare/younameit
You cannot pay to have experience and business acume in this industry. GG
I can give you the advanced course for a thousand dollars xd
For anyone who doesn't know certifications like these are used very heavily to prove competency in the IT industry. For better or worse
You have to start somewhere. And usually version 1 isn’t “it”. But you start somewhere and build on it. I’m sure we all respect the initiative. It is a lot more difficult than these guys can now understand after being in the field for so long. Good episode
Its hard to see the unseen. Adds another barrier to entry lol. He admits he fucked up, but it is ironic to say that
This is spicy 😎
Not sure why Sebastian pushed this without support from brand name employers. Nobody seeks industry certification because of its educational value, but because employers ask for it as a hiring requirement. If a bunch of employers all listed "esports certification is a plus", you can see how this would've gone another direction
Great content. Commenting for the algo
Take a drink every time this guy says "bias".
I think that Esports cert should be something later on in the future considering we have so many prominent figures in power positions who make absolutely terrible and stupid decisions in esports, and who come from ridiculous backgrounds.
Is there any Sports certificate? Soccer, Basketball, Baseball, Football sports certificate? No. This continues to be a completely stupid idea.
@@pantalaemon8499 There absolutely are coaching courses and badges you can and are expected to earn to coach soccer in top European leagues
@@wwanimator hhaha of course you are right, there is certificates and courses required to get into almost every occupation that there is. Why is everyone acting like an eSports cert is a scam when it shows employers who is actually committed via time/money to pursue their passion rather than sending out a thousand free resumes?
@@wwanimator yes, but that was a process that evolved for almost a century. The coaching certification is somewhat recent in European football, you can be the president of a club without any kind of formal degree, many football leagues don't require any kind of certification from the coaches, being a referee isn't even considered a full-time job in many football leagues, you don't have to have any kind of formal degree or certification to cast and comment any football match. You might not like it, but artificially trying to push esports certificates, instead of letting the esports scene grow naturally to the point it becomes obvious such thing is needed, is one of the worst ideas i've ever eard. It is just one of the most braindead concepts i've ever come across. It's like the people proposing this bs don't even understand esports, when they should be some of the people with most knowledge about it.
@@wwanimator First of all that was not what was proposed. But a certication to be obtained for any eSports related job (including this interview). I agree that coaching certificates are a thing, even for managing positions. But are not necessary for being journalists or working at other staff positions (which means an attempt at gatekeeping/monopolizing). Lets be real
Yeah getting young people that are most likely already in debt to pay 500 or smth dollars for a useless piece of paper is a pretty shitty thing to do.
400 dollars, my bad
So this guy is just constantly telling everyone that they are right but he is not and he is still doing it.
He’s actually not still doing it lol. The whole thing died.
I think the word "like" happens about 70 billion times in this video. Fair play to Sebastian for going on but this was a murder.
I really struggle to follow his points, he flounders around and fills the air with generalities. I don't think Richards very first question was ever answered, namely "why isn't this a scam?."
Scarlett was the first trans woman in public, that if i hadn't gone to her wiki page, i would've never figured out that she's trans, which is how it should be, we all are equal in front of the keyboard.
Sebastian, you said that your product was for the kind of person who wouldn't reach out in DMs or have a social media following. Someone who needed a boost to get into the industry. So why are you listening to a bunch of people who are active and loud with a social media following? As you said, this product is not for those people. Let the type of people the certificate IS FOR tell you if they want to give you $400 for it or not. Bowing too quickly to the pressure here imo.
Probably because he respects deeply some of the people who talked about his product negatively.
"Kevin is a shit name" - Richard Lewis
It’s so sad to see hard working people like the three above literally take time out of their lives to mentor and spotlight people who are nobodies and had nothing. Who came begging for an opportunity only to turn around and bite the hand that fed them. Where is the loyalty at? These people sound like they’d use their own mother if it meant they could get ahead in the industry. Which now reminds me, I have to make some phone calls and go thank my mentors and people who helped me get to where I’m at.
Man i hate peoples that "answer" questions like sebastian park did, it feels like everything has to be pulled out of his nose
Btw I hate these kind of ppl that can think they can talk out of anything just by saying: "yea right, I fucked up, that was a bad judgement call" etc. This is a classic manipulation and it's straight up insulting to anyone that wasn adressed by this BS. That guy is a scammer through and through.
Orrrrr, Orr, orrrrrrr, he realised he made a mistake and is explaining his logic and reasoning for why he thought that was the best strategy to go about it.
@@mackoa12 It's definitely possible, I'm not gonna deny it but that whole situation just reeks of trying to save his face and manipulate the perception.
This guy got off lightly for this scam
Sorry if this is rude.
Mr. Parker seems like a cokehead trying to secure his habit.
Keep it tidy kids.
Describe the difference between the E-sports certificate and a college degree.
comment for algorithm
Didnt clutch Gaming fail out of LCS. Why should we care about that persons credentials if they ran failed projects?
I also remember an interview he had with Travis where he said he would rather be watching a Houston Rocket game than see his team in one of their opening matches a few years ago. This just sounds like a scam to get money out of people.
Pre sure they sold their spot after reaching worlds
They sold, not fell out iirc. Falling out would require them to be in bottom 2 for 4 splits straight and then get voted on to stay or leave by all the other franchises.
If Thorin needed to call Richard Lewis for help to Roast people, and Monty was quite positive towards Sebastian, then maybe this certificate isn't that bad idea.
I like this sebastian park guy
Sebastian Park be like: oh yea, let's go on a show where Thorin and RL can sniff the BS from a mile away and will call me on that on the every possible occasion, what could go wrong???
The stupidity is insane but at least the content is fire ; D
Hey at least he didn't ran away and cower behind some Twitter fanboys. When is the the last time you even see people like regi coming on the show.
Sounds like a comment from someone who hasn’t learned PR. Seb does this to appeal to the public and he knows the roasts are coming. They all walked away with more respect for Sebastian, like they all said in this episode.
Situation is pretty much win-win for him. If he gets blasted, he can iterate on the idea and cite some of the most respectable people in the industry as the ones who helped improve it through their suggestions. If the idea has merit and Thorin, Monte and RL agree with it, he's got at least some form of backing by said respectable people. Either way, the discussion is at least steered from "haha, paying 400 bucks for a piece of paper, funny meme" to its potential pros and cons and a bit more nuanced discussion. Basically a foot in the door type approach. So I'd not call him stupid for it.
lmao, a bunch of charismatic guys saying that it's not hard to get into esports because you can network is pretty funny.
Thorin wasnt charismatic when he got into e-sports
Networking is important in more industries than not. Charisma is just another advantage some people have over others. If it doesn’t come naturally to you cultivate it to the best of your abilities.
Learning to speak to people in a compelling and engaging way is a real skill to develop
Monte and RL, sure. Thorin has said many times he had troubles transitioning from text-based work to interviews and stuff, but eventually trained himself to do it.
@@TheOlaMG esports probably wasn’t even an official term when thorin got in the game bruh. It’s been well over a decade
the four semen
Imagine going to Yale, doing computer science/cognitive science and waste it on esports. Guy could have made 6 figures lol
This smells
Weee
Real talk, If you want to talk about American gameplay being a disappointment, and why NA doesn’t compete with China nor Korea in games you should look no further than accessibility of games. The issue that COMPUTER games has with cultivating talent in america is that the cost of entry is too high. Poor people and most importantly poor kids have limited access to a good enough computer with good enough internet to play any of these games.
In Korea and China you have PC cafes where you don’t need your own rig or working internet to actually play these games. Poor people themselves have the most to gain from playing these games and breaking into the pros. NA is literally missing out on a whole untapped market of talent. A market of talent that will undoubtedly be more driven than the majority of current pros just based on their own circumstances.
To all the orgs crying about NA talent, if you really want to cultivate NA talent, use your money that you flaunt to invest in opening up a personal PC cafe to actually nurture new talent.
These guys also shit on the FGC for the open bracket tournaments that they run along with their grassroots mindset. But it’s that same grassroots mindset and focus on community that makes NA competitive with Asia in fighting games. The FGC figured this out a long time ago. They have their own versions of PC cafes for their games which nurtures actual talent. The poorest people will always be amongst the most driven to excel.
Actually most Anime nowadays have better plot and character developement , than 99% of Hollywood trash.
Really now? I haven't actually watched a full season of anime for two years, resorted to only reading manga. Most of the stuff I read get animated, and by then, I already dropped them because of how shit they were.
@@nguyentri3608 I mean, the bar set by Hollywood is fairly low (if not abysmally so), so I get what he's saying. Personally though, in the same boat as you are. There are the occasional flashes of brilliance in an otherwise over-saturated field, but it's pretty obvious that the talent in the anime industry is stretched too thin between too many different projects.
Is this just another get woke go broke?
How am i this early
Should’ve done this without thorin and Richard. Halfway through this and literally everything they’ve said is pure trash of information I didn’t need to hear that don’t contribute to the problem he’s trying to solve. It’s just constant flaming about the idea of the certificate that he’s already canceled while trying to figure out a solution, their suggestions are so fuckjbg bad it’s so hard to listen to. My god it just keeps going. Monte butts in trying to focus on the real problem then they constantly deviate back to the certificate it’s fucking wild
1:59:35
Echoes your sentiments and they further elaborate their problems
Richard and thorin are cohosts so you probably can't do it without them like you said
Also the community ask for their thoughts so if you don't like it you can always not watch the future podcasts and I would wonder why you're even watching in the first place
I actually disagree it was so good to see the synergy of Richard and thorin here. I’ve never actually seen them as a duo before (behind the numbers) but will have to check them out
So, Sebastian Park, founder of the eSports certification scheme comes on the podcast to talk about the eSports certificate program that he founded and you complain that the hosts spend the whole time talking about the eSports certificate?
lets play game in reply section
What Sebastian is proposing here in the "networking vs nepotism" section is that people who can not interact socially should be able to get a job in e-sports. Social skills are the basis of social relationships, which a work relationship also is.
In any industry social skills are the basis for acquiring contracts, jobs and negotiating salary. Therefore any solution which tries to change this reality is artificial and in turn ultimately destructive. The only real solution would be to make a social program, institution, or whatever else, which would help and encourage skilled individuals in the e-sports sphere to socialize and interact with others in real life, not online, to help them have a healthy social life.
Without considering nepotism, one can only get "luck" in an industry through his own initiative, part of which is interacting with others. I personally work in the software development industry and the reality is the same. This should not be changed and instead the bigger social issue of intelligent young people being socially isolated, lacking confidence and unable to interact normally should be addressed.
the four semen