Not gonna lie my respect for Richard went up just after his first introductory speech ,just making that speech in itself I almost prove enough of his convictions
Mik is probably my fav guest I seen so far on this show. It was already brave enough of him to even show up to this show and to be so transparent on the deal, but his knowledge and the way he speaks are both so amazing. Good shit ad usual guys.
This was maybe the most hard hitting form of media on important topics I've heard in a long time and it's coming from people talking about an esports organization acquisition. Thank you so much for doing that and I hope that more media outlets "grow a pair, of courage" and start talking about these atrocities as well. I think something funny is we hear a lot of discussion about how esports businesses aren't profitable and we just need to figure how to make them that way but we don't know how yet (this really goes for most sports businesses in general). The thing is sports businesses are just big/expensive advertisements for the ownership's actual businesses and the sponsor's businesses, that's it and it works for those people on top and that's all that matters to them, it doesn't need to become more if the amount they are paying in advertisement for a team is converting to more money in their "actual" business. Question: So who of Monte, Thorin, Richard, and Mik are conquest, war, famine and death in this episode? For me it's probably Richard (Conquest), Thorin (War), Mik (Famine), Monte (Death).
The buying of sports teams is usually seen as status purchase, i.e., not ever meant to bring profit. At least in the US, it is about being able to brag on yachts about owning the Mavericks or whatever. I'm not sure if those in the esports space realize this when comparing to traditional sports..
This entire episode is straight fire. The world needs more people like this that are willing to tell it like it is. Thank you Monte, Rich and Duncan for doing this.
Its nice of Thorins former prison warden to be on the show. It is brave of Mik to be on, after the lax covid bubble during flashpoint 2 putting the whole talent under house arrest, I thought for sure Thorin wouldve had a pop at him for that XD I was also disappointed that the biggest question of all wasn't asked. With faceit partnering with esl, does that mean all esl event now have a 2 egg limit? Does Pasza need to come out of retirement and fight for player rights?
I hope so much that more and more people within the industry and fans alike stop a minute to think about why Richard and Thorin have turned their back on profit for being free to saying all this and showing the true human principles we seem to have forgotten in pursuit of being successful and profitable. That Richard speech around 18 minute - that hit me very hard indeed, it made me wanna review everything I'm subscribing to or purchasing. It's sad how impossible it is to be rid of everything vile in the world, even by just association with some product we like. Lord, these people should be appreciated so much for telling it how it is. I also appreciate the honesty and disclaimers Monte put in at the beginning. You know, I've always been salty we can't have Thorin more involved with LoL mainstream coverage. Now I probably won't even see him at CS:GO majors, where he's the reason I'd wanna watch the desk beside the games. But I get it, he's paying this prize to stay true to himself, though it can't not be hurting him to be driving him further away from the games he brings a lot of value to. I say worth it, as long as we have these blessed gentlemen telling it how it is. Edit: typo.
This opened my eyes to how bad the industry is. Thank you for bringing this up and being real. I would like to note that I am intrested in the payperview model for a good product.
Ive been saying for years that if they had esports venues in major cities people (me) would pay for tickets and season passes 100%... I would pay for a video game package on my tv. if hulu had an extension or something like that. I do not mind paying to watch a good product
I see you're still treading that fine line Mr.Lewis, aka Richard "GIVE ME THE BLOOD DIAMONDS, I HAVE FOCKING HAD ENOUGH! NICOLAJ NYHOLM, I FOCKING LOVE YE!" Lewis
I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again. The industry *was* potentially sustainable until we allowed in inflationary pressures. The way that we were developing in the past was a direction of smaller tournament circuits, smaller salaries, and smaller prize pools that could be funded by companies that wanted cheap ads, or gaming product companies who actually would get value out of advertising their mouse or keyboard. The problem is that, for the last 15 or so years, we've let in so much outside money, that if someone doesn't take it from almost any source, they'll be buried in months. The best thing that could happen to the industry right now is for some recession to hit and give us another, hopefully far worse, post-CGS crash, so that we can try to cut off the cancers and try to regrow in a healthier direction. Just to prove my point, look at how all the heads on this are still talking about growth and numbers in the door. If you still need this much expansion and to trade to bigger fools or to beg for more blood money, you're completely unsustainable and are developing in an unhealthy direction. I would far rather watch trash LANS where the top 10 are part time players and only the top ~3 are full time, salaried pros, and the prize is a car, some watches, or a computer, than engage with a circuit that's constantly scrambling to get more idiots I hate in the door, and more sketchy foreign investment into their bleeding-out bank accounts. Thorin had this great video years ago about Team Liquid's sponsorship with a pizza company that I didn't quite understand at the time(because I was a teenager and didn't understand his phrasing), but his explanation was perfect. Their ads said something like "Buy pizza, support eSports," which is flawed, because if people are buying pizzas to 'support' or essentially donate to their favourite team, that's not indicative of any kind of brand power, and won't provide any good data for what ROI is for sponsoring the team. What a fan *should* think is that they want a pizza, they see an ad with TL, and then they go to try the pizza place because of it, this is, as I understand it, what happened with the T2(Halo player) Dr. Pepper during the H2-H3 MLG era. These moves look desperate because they are, every team, org, or tournament host seems dead-set on just inflating numbers to hopefully outlive their competition a few months longer, and they'll somehow pick up the pieces later. Really sad that things have gone this way.
This is serious stuff. I fucking love these conversations. Here I am over here in Australia commenting on a four horseman post using my Chinese made phone running off hot coal power
Loved the content gentlemen. Been watching all of you guys throughout the decade now and it's funny how a lot of the trends in the esports industry are even being reflected in the broad/overall market and economy. What I've learned from all from all of this? Money isn't actually really made or lost. It's just transferred. There are two sides of every trade. The winning side and the sucker that gets left holding the bag. We've keep this vicious cycle propped up with our tacit consent as consumers and our refusal to adopt a profitable and healthy business model. Welcome to our new world for better or worse ladies and gents.
Please do the Comics/Graphic Novel reviews, would love to hear Thorin's thoughts on From Hell and other classics like the Dark Knight Returns/Born Again!
I wonder if a part of ppls unwillingness to spend on subs, is because soo many different companies are splitting there content off and making there own sub service plans. I.e. "well im already paying 20 bucks for this one, 15 for this one, 30 for this one, and 10 for this one."
Gaben once said that piracy is always an availability problem - people will always pay a reasonable price for a good product, if it's available. Multiple subscription services with exclusive rights to content leads to piracy, as it reduces availability and raises prices.
I'd be more willing to shell out for a one-time-payment pass or something to watch my favourite Leagues, but companies like recurring payments too much for that to happen
@@fatsloth9209 There really isn't a much better model then a monthly subscription for esports. There should be an option at checkout whether you want it to be recurring or not. (The UK is already really pushing this. Specifically in the games area too so it will most likely be like that if they do come out with a monthly sub.)
I'd HAPPILY pay for your content, and for eSports in general! I have appreciated and enjoyed hours of your content, and would love the opportunity to support all three of you
Thorin actually nailed it with the tyler1 comparison, not the first time he mentions it either. It's hard to address or even acknowledge for people in the space. Also, isn't a little crazy that EU CSGO teams are now subsidizing NA CSGO teams? Not Valve, who would have an interest in keeping the game relevant in the region, but their competitors.
I understand the resentment they have towards the unwillingness of the general audience for pay per view stuff. But as a casual fan, I would've missed out on a ton of stuff because I'm not quite invested enough in esports to pay for any of it. I imagine that applies to a large chunk of the audience, which is the core problem. It still surprises me when I hear people from the UK or elsewhere praise (American) football. The prevailing attitude being pushed for so long was that no one else gives a shit about it. Even though Richard and Thorin are _not_ the only people from the UK I've heard of that like the NFL, it still catches me off guard.
Most gamers are broke teens and young adults without spending power stuck in their rooms. The value of esports is just not there for your average gamer in general since it is too complex/expensive to keep up with. It is difficult to find a gamer that is a fan of both the game and the esport side with enough understanding to even follow the scene. Then once you peel away the first few layers of the esport scene you will find that it is actually a systemic problem. From how people become gamers to how they develop and interact with those that are not in this space. Lets be honest here, the space is largely occupied by social rejects. When it collides with those that don't fully understand the space it turns into a disaster real quick. There really is too many nuances that can't really be addressed fully. Esports needs to be absolutely destroyed so that it can return to its grassroots days and grow with the players. Once anything goes mainstream without proper care it goes to shit pretty quickly because everyone wants to be the biggest and baddest as soon as possible.
You might be right, you might be wrong. Either way I believe you're approaching it from the incorrect perspective. Let's say you're the CMO of Ford. You know that your current Cost Per Aqusition (CPA) is (let's say) $4200 - meaning for every $4,220 you spend you get a purchasing customer. Keep in mind that most of the cars Ford make might only be running at 6-9% profit margin. So, you enter into a 5 year deal with ESL (or esports but let's say ESL) and you pay X amount of money. You can safely assume the ROI on the first 5 years of this will be negative, meaning you will lose money. However, what's important is the brand awareness you've built up over the 5 years - combine with fords existing ad purchases and marketing it gets people BEFORE they are at a place in their lives to make a decision on what car they might buy. When they get to that spot, they are WELL aware of Ford and it's offerings in the automotive space, you also are consistently reinforcing that awareness with your existing marketing and ad campaigns throughout the persons future - so as they progress form being a "basement dwelling neckbeard" to a IT professional or a bricklayer you have an offering for their needs. Grassroots esports means this podcast doesn't exist, it means thorin and Richard don't exist.
at a certain point in the second half, monte just started saying "y' know" and at the end lewis subcontiously joined in on that one sometimes speaking habits are weird like that and as i was writing this comment i hear thorin do it too xD
I think that the Pay-per-View model is fine and dandy after you get to a point where the quality/talent/broadcast/popularity is high and consistent enough. First of all, fuck the "traditional" sports comparison, the most paid athletes(salary-wise) in the world are boxers! In the beginning boxing was live and on radio, then live-radio-TV, then live-PPV and it got to that after 60 years of being in the limelight and getting to a point where a TH-camr who is popular enough but has no quality whastoever can garner enough money. I still think that CS can improve in some areas and deliver more exclusive material before migrating to PPV
Regarding the subbing to twitch streamers vs pay-per-view: As far as I know it has been scientifically "proven" that people are generous to individuals but greedy towards companies?
Community Clash League was born after Blizzard killed the HOTS competitive space and then killed the HOTS game... If these companies simply die, SOMEONE WILL RISE even if it's a few on the community that are actually paying for this. ASL from broodwar is another case of the old format dying and people keepint it alive.
Havent heard you mention that the hole story could be, "SA buys software the monitors you hole system" 15 mil aktive faceit users with name nationality IP adress your password Gaming habits They have been cought hacking company for data and tech, now they have some data too open up..
man youre just another cog in a wheel you dont control, same as i cant directly change any of the heinous shit america does just because im american. all we can do is what we can where we can
Props to Richard for his initial rant, staying that consistent has got to be hard -and expensive-. Also, I like how the counter argument for anything Richard and Duncan say is "Well, valve wouldn't allow that" like they actually give a shit. The only way I can ever see valve stepping up is if it fucks up with their revenue, and even then I don't think they'll do THAT much (e.g. the skin gambling scandal). Anyways, I'm late for my Chinese lessons and I've gotta study for the Russian exam later next week, have a good weekend and may الله bless our русский & 中文 overlords.
About Thorin's point about hiding the source of the money: wouldn't thorin then accuse them of being liars and purposefully hiding the source of the money? And then he would've said: At least be transparent and tell me where the money is from to my face. Am I missing something here? It seems like because he has many issues with ESL whatever they did was the wrong choice. I don't support them either but in this specific point I feel like he would've shit on them either way.
esports is turning or already has turned into the thing Ive wanted to avoid while watching regular sport. The fun days of kids that are really good at video games simply playing the game for me to watch is over. Right now Im just trying to avoid this crap to the best of my abilities simply for my own consciousness and in a fucked up way I can reason with watching LoL because of the layers of abstraction even though I don’t like it but I’m sure as shit not paying them anything and I will be not watching any broadcast by ESL or Faceit from now on. On a side note I’m getting sick of seeing people call others out for being a hypocrite, everyone is a hypocrite and if you can even help unfuck this world a little bit by boycotting one thing that’s a good thing
Richard literally put down a statement in this episode and Thorin keeps masking maximum grilling through humor as well as always... Mark my words, Mik is first on the chopping block, he is basically marked for death, I sure hope for his sake he secured enough from this deal and he can live the rest of his life in peace knowing he allied with the Saudis...disgusting
Dude 😂 logically if a rich country wants you dead for 50$ million you would die next morning 😂😂 trust me if Saudi wants him dead he would die by now unless he is some kind of a mastermind
Formula 1 pays there casters good money because they existed before companies had so much power to go over head of word of mouth and now the money they are on is still stuck at a fair rate you think if formula 1 starts today any caster is getting payed the same money in 40 years i fucking doubt it.
The subscription + donation model starts out just fine, until an "individual" like JerkyzMinion comes around with too much skrilla and turns Thorin into their propoganda machine
@@ioanbardan5150 It was supposed to be a joke that the dude who donates the most money to Thooorin is actually a bad actor funding him. Every thooorin video (and some other CS content creators) always give a special shoutout to JerkysMinion (
My gods, why did I spend time looking through the comments on this video. I was hoping for an interesting debate, yet most of what I find is people slinging hate at eachother. I'm starting to miss overhearing douche bags in the pub talking about football as if they're the next Alex fucking Ferguson.
Good vid and important of you guys to shed light on these issues - one comment I had as this is predominantly a western audience listening to this....there is a lot of warranted outrage directed (fairly so) at Saudi Arabia and other human right abusers but let's not pretend that the US and to a lesser degree the UK, are also one of the biggest and violent human right abusers on the planet..food for thought when Western figures are outraged only when its not talking about their own governments actions
behaviour score should also be a factor for queue time. If you have a great score, youre fast tracked in queue for games and lobbies. If you have a shit score, then you gotta wait to be queued up with other fuckin loser subhuman fucks, with an artificially boosted queue time for the worst offenders. Would be sweet to see how that works out.
As always, alot of ignorance and misinformations about saudi arabia after every successful movement. At least have a saudi guest to clarify for you what is really happening in my country
@@sneauxday7002 calm down , the deal is done and your crying won’t change anything, i just want you to educate yourself about my beautiful and peaceful country
@@sneauxday7002 Yes it is beautiful and more peaceful than almost all western countries At least in Saudi if some criminal really did hurt one of your family members you will one day see that criminal on his knees begging mercy Unlike the western countries someone can enter a mosque and shoot people like they are animals and still he lives to this day that is literally just like the medieval ages in Europe
I don't think you can compare China to Saudi Arabia, as in that China clearly pro actively want's to spread their morals and influence public oppinions and perspective of the world of China. I'm not sure if Saudi gov even cares about anything but making money even if it is in a business opposes their own morals. Still blood money though, but then again what investors money is clean now a days..... Btw I don't think viewers don't want to play, it is the standard that was set by RIOT by making it free. It is a pretty hard sell to first take something away that is free and then sell it back to you. But I think it is possible if the content and the platform is good enough. You also got to understand that the demographic was very different back then. The demographic now may be more willing to pay for content.
There's so much to unpack about all of this, with so many nuanced shades of grey about what level of responsibility anyone takes on by the way they spend or accept money, but I have to say I hate the take that you cannot uphold any moral stance at all if you align yourself in any way with a body that transgresses that moral stance. That's garbage black and white reasoning for children, and not how an adult should interact with the world. Saying you cannot fight sexism in your immediate surroundings because you accept a well paid dream job in a company that is now owned by a sexist body would be ridiculous, and massively oversimplifies the problem with the sexist body or how it ought to be tackled. Arguably further exposing Saudi to western culture, western media, and so on, is a much greater impetus for socio-cultural and political change than would be rejecting the investment, or even worse just quitting your job, personally. The point is even made here that if you grand stand in this way, so black and white about an abstracted connection to something evil, then you must do so with everything all the time, including basic things like where you buy your food and clothes, and where you take all your money. No conversation would be allowed whatsoever, and no impetus for any kind of change or betterment, would ever take place, anywhere, if anyone who in any tiny, abstract way aligned themselves with anything that transgressed their principles wasn't permitted a credible voice. It's such a childish reason to shut down the conversation or tell someone their stated principles are worthless/fake, and comes across as mildly insincere from people so clearly intelligent. Your agency with respect to anything that transgresses your morals also has to matter. Otherwise this was a brilliant, if depressing, conversation. I just don't know if we have the capacity to be reasonably expected to take on moral responsibility for things well beyond our immediate social sphere, or what that expectation would look like in practice if it was even possible to coherently exist.
I felt the same way consumers are not responsible for the decisions that board rooms, ceos, and hedge funds make most major corporations have 50 major share holders so less than 100 people in every major corporation make the important decisions very common to serve on multiple boards with a lot of obvious nepotism don’t see how consumers who are forced to buy computers or smartphones in our modern economy just to have a job and survive are equally responsible for corporations choosing to use child slave labour something I’m sure the majority of people watching this video would not want it’s a product ultimately of the lack of ethical consideration we have regarding money neo liberalism is the cancer here it simply doesn’t work and serves only the needs of the few at the expense of the many
Saudi Arabia has an ancient culture and morals which have remained steadfast even while Liberalism proliferated in the west. We can't say they're evil just because they've maintained their traditional culture/morals.
If you're not a moral relativistist who actually believes in the rights of minority groups, you most definitely can. If something is not morally acceptable where you are, then it's not morally acceptable anywhere. Fuck off with the "but it's their traditional way of life" bull shit. It's wrong or it's not. Maybe we changed our traditions because the traditions were wrong.
Bro half this episode is talking about virtue signaling while virtue signaling. Also they talk about all the problems of the industry without talking about why. They imply it's just bloodsucking shitty moral-less people but in reality it's just our current late stage capitalistic society. It's how it has to run unless things change. Asking questions without thinking of any conclusion doesn't make you smart these guys get so upset without coming close to an answer it's wild.
It isnt virtue signaling if you stand by your claims and these people massive records of doing the same. I do w the comment about the capitalistic society you made but your last point is quite bizzare where you say how can someone get so upset if they cant come close to finding a solution where i do believe how a lot of people get upset is cause they cant find a solution to an answer
Do you even understand basic english? They spent maybe half an hour of screen time explaining why is this a problem and the roots of the esports problems with VC and quick expansion. Tf you on about?
Asking questions and opening the discussion is more important than coming with a whole theoritical recipe, and that's not even true they proposed that a subscription to watch pro matches can be one of the potential solutions to avoid getting money from these parties. So what do you want from them? Do the whole thinking for you and providing it with a napkin? What a fuckin hater reasoning, jesus christ...
It's great, everyone "talks" about how they want to see esports grow and expand, but here comes an investor that actually backs it up with cold hard cash, and people can still find ways to complain. It's good business and it's going to be great for esports going forward. If you're an SJW that is just looking for anything to complain about just to satisfy your narcissistic need to feel good about yourself, you can take a hike.
@@HowieW928 most misinformed ignorant take ive seen maybe ever. i think you should leave thinking to competent humans and never publicly project your thoughts ever again
@@sneauxday7002 Thank you for taking the time to reply to me, but I'm sure there're some black people wearing Xinjiang cotton riding baby seals down what's left of the Amazon rainforest on a warm day who REALLY REALLY needs you to advocate for them instead.
Richard is a real one, no bs, no sugarcoat, straight to the point, raw and clear. Great
It's always hard to tell exactly how aggro Thorin really is and I love it.
wish he would say the same about China.
@@finalfrontier001 he doesnt want to be killed
@@finalfrontier001 you obviously don't watch Thorin enough
he gets redder and stops blinking
@@Rayon811 oh my god mate you're right
Not gonna lie my respect for Richard went up just after his first introductory speech ,just making that speech in itself I almost prove enough of his convictions
Mik is probably my fav guest I seen so far on this show. It was already brave enough of him to even show up to this show and to be so transparent on the deal, but his knowledge and the way he speaks are both so amazing. Good shit ad usual guys.
This was maybe the most hard hitting form of media on important topics I've heard in a long time and it's coming from people talking about an esports organization acquisition. Thank you so much for doing that and I hope that more media outlets "grow a pair, of courage" and start talking about these atrocities as well. I think something funny is we hear a lot of discussion about how esports businesses aren't profitable and we just need to figure how to make them that way but we don't know how yet (this really goes for most sports businesses in general). The thing is sports businesses are just big/expensive advertisements for the ownership's actual businesses and the sponsor's businesses, that's it and it works for those people on top and that's all that matters to them, it doesn't need to become more if the amount they are paying in advertisement for a team is converting to more money in their "actual" business. Question: So who of Monte, Thorin, Richard, and Mik are conquest, war, famine and death in this episode? For me it's probably Richard (Conquest), Thorin (War), Mik (Famine), Monte (Death).
Thorin is definitely War.
Thorin is and forever will be war
The buying of sports teams is usually seen as status purchase, i.e., not ever meant to bring profit. At least in the US, it is about being able to brag on yachts about owning the Mavericks or whatever. I'm not sure if those in the esports space realize this when comparing to traditional sports..
This entire episode is straight fire. The world needs more people like this that are willing to tell it like it is. Thank you Monte, Rich and Duncan for doing this.
Richard is a man on fire 🔥
Its nice of Thorins former prison warden to be on the show.
It is brave of Mik to be on, after the lax covid bubble during flashpoint 2 putting the whole talent under house arrest, I thought for sure Thorin wouldve had a pop at him for that XD
I was also disappointed that the biggest question of all wasn't asked. With faceit partnering with esl, does that mean all esl event now have a 2 egg limit? Does Pasza need to come out of retirement and fight for player rights?
Not sure Thorin cares too much about people violating lockdown / covid restrictions or being too lax with them tbf.
@@samueltunnicliffe7012 you havent seen thorins presance in btn and his almost hour long content piece on the departure from flashpoint
@@TheFiku I have not. Did he talk about covid things?
@@samueltunnicliffe7012 ye he did, sorry i don't have the timestamp
@@TheFiku this not what I wanted to hear 😔
I hope so much that more and more people within the industry and fans alike stop a minute to think about why Richard and Thorin have turned their back on profit for being free to saying all this and showing the true human principles we seem to have forgotten in pursuit of being successful and profitable. That Richard speech around 18 minute - that hit me very hard indeed, it made me wanna review everything I'm subscribing to or purchasing. It's sad how impossible it is to be rid of everything vile in the world, even by just association with some product we like.
Lord, these people should be appreciated so much for telling it how it is. I also appreciate the honesty and disclaimers Monte put in at the beginning. You know, I've always been salty we can't have Thorin more involved with LoL mainstream coverage. Now I probably won't even see him at CS:GO majors, where he's the reason I'd wanna watch the desk beside the games. But I get it, he's paying this prize to stay true to himself, though it can't not be hurting him to be driving him further away from the games he brings a lot of value to. I say worth it, as long as we have these blessed gentlemen telling it how it is.
Edit: typo.
This opened my eyes to how bad the industry is. Thank you for bringing this up and being real.
I would like to note that I am intrested in the payperview model for a good product.
Real people speaking truth, what a rarity in our day and age. Thank you Thorin Richard and Monte for all you do!
Class, nothing short of class insight and talk
Respect to Richard, Duncan and Monte always grows bigger and bigger
Respect to Mr Attisani for coming on the show but unfortunately I have the feeling he didn't really believe in most of his arguments
It’s crazy y’all got Peter stormare on the four horsemen. I didn’t realize he was so involved in esports.
Massive respect to this guy for coming on
Respect for all the disclosure .
Ive been saying for years that if they had esports venues in major cities people (me) would pay for tickets and season passes 100%... I would pay for a video game package on my tv. if hulu had an extension or something like that. I do not mind paying to watch a good product
I see you're still treading that fine line Mr.Lewis, aka Richard "GIVE ME THE BLOOD DIAMONDS, I HAVE FOCKING HAD ENOUGH! NICOLAJ NYHOLM, I FOCKING LOVE YE!" Lewis
I haven't given in yet.
@@RLewisReports You absolutely nailed this episode, much respect
I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again.
The industry *was* potentially sustainable until we allowed in inflationary pressures. The way that we were developing in the past was a direction of smaller tournament circuits, smaller salaries, and smaller prize pools that could be funded by companies that wanted cheap ads, or gaming product companies who actually would get value out of advertising their mouse or keyboard. The problem is that, for the last 15 or so years, we've let in so much outside money, that if someone doesn't take it from almost any source, they'll be buried in months. The best thing that could happen to the industry right now is for some recession to hit and give us another, hopefully far worse, post-CGS crash, so that we can try to cut off the cancers and try to regrow in a healthier direction.
Just to prove my point, look at how all the heads on this are still talking about growth and numbers in the door. If you still need this much expansion and to trade to bigger fools or to beg for more blood money, you're completely unsustainable and are developing in an unhealthy direction. I would far rather watch trash LANS where the top 10 are part time players and only the top ~3 are full time, salaried pros, and the prize is a car, some watches, or a computer, than engage with a circuit that's constantly scrambling to get more idiots I hate in the door, and more sketchy foreign investment into their bleeding-out bank accounts.
Thorin had this great video years ago about Team Liquid's sponsorship with a pizza company that I didn't quite understand at the time(because I was a teenager and didn't understand his phrasing), but his explanation was perfect. Their ads said something like "Buy pizza, support eSports," which is flawed, because if people are buying pizzas to 'support' or essentially donate to their favourite team, that's not indicative of any kind of brand power, and won't provide any good data for what ROI is for sponsoring the team. What a fan *should* think is that they want a pizza, they see an ad with TL, and then they go to try the pizza place because of it, this is, as I understand it, what happened with the T2(Halo player) Dr. Pepper during the H2-H3 MLG era. These moves look desperate because they are, every team, org, or tournament host seems dead-set on just inflating numbers to hopefully outlive their competition a few months longer, and they'll somehow pick up the pieces later. Really sad that things have gone this way.
This is serious stuff. I fucking love these conversations. Here I am over here in Australia commenting on a four horseman post using my Chinese made phone running off hot coal power
Impossible not to love Richard...
Mik just sitting there like:
-___________-
dont know why mik came on here but props to him i guess
15:55 "it's nigh on impossible to walk a consistent moral line in the modern world..."
Loved the content gentlemen. Been watching all of you guys throughout the decade now and it's funny how a lot of the trends in the esports industry are even being reflected in the broad/overall market and economy. What I've learned from all from all of this? Money isn't actually really made or lost. It's just transferred. There are two sides of every trade. The winning side and the sucker that gets left holding the bag. We've keep this vicious cycle propped up with our tacit consent as consumers and our refusal to adopt a profitable and healthy business model. Welcome to our new world for better or worse ladies and gents.
Please do the Comics/Graphic Novel reviews, would love to hear Thorin's thoughts on From Hell and other classics like the Dark Knight Returns/Born Again!
Video of the year
I'd love to see Monte and Richard play board games I don't mind. I'm excited for all the non esports content
I wonder if a part of ppls unwillingness to spend on subs, is because soo many different companies are splitting there content off and making there own sub service plans. I.e. "well im already paying 20 bucks for this one, 15 for this one, 30 for this one, and 10 for this one."
Gaben once said that piracy is always an availability problem - people will always pay a reasonable price for a good product, if it's available.
Multiple subscription services with exclusive rights to content leads to piracy, as it reduces availability and raises prices.
I'd be more willing to shell out for a one-time-payment pass or something to watch my favourite Leagues, but companies like recurring payments too much for that to happen
@@fatsloth9209 There really isn't a much better model then a monthly subscription for esports. There should be an option at checkout whether you want it to be recurring or not. (The UK is already really pushing this. Specifically in the games area too so it will most likely be like that if they do come out with a monthly sub.)
You're here for 16:00 i guess
Brilliant speech
Very willing to pay for whatever is coming, supporting this is very very important
Yeah, Norway has a way less ethically dubious version of a national state fund from their oil money. The Saudies want to copy that strategy.
Lots of "terrorists win" themed music in the future I see
Monte and Richard boardgames? Something a little different and fun. I will like to see it!
this is the most passionate about a topic I've seen Richard in a long time
Thorin is always so geeked up🤣🤣🤣
I'd HAPPILY pay for your content, and for eSports in general! I have appreciated and enjoyed hours of your content, and would love the opportunity to support all three of you
You can already do so. Both Richard and Thorin have patreon already. I am not sure about Monte.
Thorin actually nailed it with the tyler1 comparison, not the first time he mentions it either. It's hard to address or even acknowledge for people in the space. Also, isn't a little crazy that EU CSGO teams are now subsidizing NA CSGO teams? Not Valve, who would have an interest in keeping the game relevant in the region, but their competitors.
I love that y’all are expanding outside of esports, I listen to by the numbers and o don’t even watch csgo
I believed this is still in the realm of esports. What do you mean?
@@samlcyo2 I mean that I don’t need to know what they are talking about to still enjoy their content
fucking hell Thorin was on form here.
stepping stones - some are stable, some are slippery, some are wobbly, some get you across - stepping stones
Best episode so far
I would love to watch thorin and monte talk about classic novels
I understand the resentment they have towards the unwillingness of the general audience for pay per view stuff. But as a casual fan, I would've missed out on a ton of stuff because I'm not quite invested enough in esports to pay for any of it. I imagine that applies to a large chunk of the audience, which is the core problem.
It still surprises me when I hear people from the UK or elsewhere praise (American) football. The prevailing attitude being pushed for so long was that no one else gives a shit about it. Even though Richard and Thorin are _not_ the only people from the UK I've heard of that like the NFL, it still catches me off guard.
Enjoyed this even if i got banned from twitch chat for trolling a bit.
Sooner or later everyone gets banned in IoE or RL or Thorins chat.
Didn't the whole act independently thing get stated with Blizzard when Activision came in?
Most gamers are broke teens and young adults without spending power stuck in their rooms. The value of esports is just not there for your average gamer in general since it is too complex/expensive to keep up with. It is difficult to find a gamer that is a fan of both the game and the esport side with enough understanding to even follow the scene. Then once you peel away the first few layers of the esport scene you will find that it is actually a systemic problem. From how people become gamers to how they develop and interact with those that are not in this space. Lets be honest here, the space is largely occupied by social rejects. When it collides with those that don't fully understand the space it turns into a disaster real quick. There really is too many nuances that can't really be addressed fully. Esports needs to be absolutely destroyed so that it can return to its grassroots days and grow with the players. Once anything goes mainstream without proper care it goes to shit pretty quickly because everyone wants to be the biggest and baddest as soon as possible.
You might be right, you might be wrong. Either way I believe you're approaching it from the incorrect perspective.
Let's say you're the CMO of Ford. You know that your current Cost Per Aqusition (CPA) is (let's say) $4200 - meaning for every $4,220 you spend you get a purchasing customer. Keep in mind that most of the cars Ford make might only be running at 6-9% profit margin.
So, you enter into a 5 year deal with ESL (or esports but let's say ESL) and you pay X amount of money. You can safely assume the ROI on the first 5 years of this will be negative, meaning you will lose money.
However, what's important is the brand awareness you've built up over the 5 years - combine with fords existing ad purchases and marketing it gets people BEFORE they are at a place in their lives to make a decision on what car they might buy. When they get to that spot, they are WELL aware of Ford and it's offerings in the automotive space, you also are consistently reinforcing that awareness with your existing marketing and ad campaigns throughout the persons future - so as they progress form being a "basement dwelling neckbeard" to a IT professional or a bricklayer you have an offering for their needs.
Grassroots esports means this podcast doesn't exist, it means thorin and Richard don't exist.
I don’t agree with a lot of what Monty, Thorin and Richard say but there is respect in the raw honesty they provide.
Agreement is for chumps
2:28:50 anyone know what youtube channel Richard lewis is talking about?
at a certain point in the second half, monte just started saying "y' know" and at the end lewis subcontiously joined in on that one
sometimes speaking habits are weird like that
and as i was writing this comment i hear thorin do it too xD
Master and Margarita is such a banger
1000% banger
Summon the horsemen, bring out the pitchforks
I think that the Pay-per-View model is fine and dandy after you get to a point where the quality/talent/broadcast/popularity is high and consistent enough.
First of all, fuck the "traditional" sports comparison, the most paid athletes(salary-wise) in the world are boxers!
In the beginning boxing was live and on radio, then live-radio-TV, then live-PPV and it got to that after 60 years of being in the limelight and getting to a point where a TH-camr who is popular enough but has no quality whastoever can garner enough money.
I still think that CS can improve in some areas and deliver more exclusive material before migrating to PPV
Regarding the subbing to twitch streamers vs pay-per-view: As far as I know it has been scientifically "proven" that people are generous to individuals but greedy towards companies?
Fair play for Mikey to come on, he got destroyed
Is this the same Faceit that supports the academy stream?
Fans arent willing to help out and get involved because it's free, but the problem is that when you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything
Hi guys & respect. I will be happy to support an independent project in the scene by you guys. Feel free to write back.
1:26:00 Richard was right, again.
Community Clash League was born after Blizzard killed the HOTS competitive space and then killed the HOTS game...
If these companies simply die, SOMEONE WILL RISE even if it's a few on the community that are actually paying for this.
ASL from broodwar is another case of the old format dying and people keepint it alive.
Man Monte is trying so hard to stick up for Mik lol.
Richard Lewis respect!
Havent heard you mention that the hole story could be, "SA buys software the monitors you hole system" 15 mil aktive faceit users with
name
nationality
IP adress
your password
Gaming habits
They have been cought hacking company for data and tech, now they have some data too open up..
when was the golden age of e sports? i’m fairly new to the scene and would love to watch some clips/games of when things were better
I would say 2014 to 2017 was the fork in the road between being in the sport business model or creating a unique new business model
Too bad Thorin talked over Mik everytime he tried to say something, would have been fun to hear what he had to say..
Richard starts at 15:20 and it is god tier
Man watching this is an arab and seeing how Richards is so depressed over it makes me feel so ashamed.
man youre just another cog in a wheel you dont control, same as i cant directly change any of the heinous shit america does just because im american. all we can do is what we can where we can
Shit, i guess its time to play matchmaking instead of faceit
Wtf is this timeline
The saddest episode of them all
Props to Richard for his initial rant, staying that consistent has got to be hard -and expensive-. Also, I like how the counter argument for anything Richard and Duncan say is "Well, valve wouldn't allow that" like they actually give a shit. The only way I can ever see valve stepping up is if it fucks up with their revenue, and even then I don't think they'll do THAT much (e.g. the skin gambling scandal).
Anyways, I'm late for my Chinese lessons and I've gotta study for the Russian exam later next week, have a good weekend and may الله bless our русский & 中文 overlords.
ESL One Saudi Embassy 2022
About Thorin's point about hiding the source of the money: wouldn't thorin then accuse them of being liars and purposefully hiding the source of the money? And then he would've said: At least be transparent and tell me where the money is from to my face.
Am I missing something here? It seems like because he has many issues with ESL whatever they did was the wrong choice. I don't support them either but in this specific point I feel like he would've shit on them either way.
the faceit guy got so uncomfortable when they sh:t talked Saudi, lul
Has pay per view ever been tried in CS:GO?
esports is turning or already has turned into the thing Ive wanted to avoid while watching regular sport. The fun days of kids that are really good at video games simply playing the game for me to watch is over.
Right now Im just trying to avoid this crap to the best of my abilities simply for my own consciousness and in a fucked up way I can reason with watching LoL because of the layers of abstraction even though I don’t like it but I’m sure as shit not paying them anything and I will be not watching any broadcast by ESL or Faceit from now on.
On a side note I’m getting sick of seeing people call others out for being a hypocrite, everyone is a hypocrite and if you can even help unfuck this world a little bit by boycotting one thing that’s a good thing
Richard literally put down a statement in this episode and Thorin keeps masking maximum grilling through humor as well as always...
Mark my words, Mik is first on the chopping block, he is basically marked for death, I sure hope for his sake he secured enough from this deal and he can live the rest of his life in peace knowing he allied with the Saudis...disgusting
Dude 😂 logically if a rich country wants you dead for 50$ million you would die next morning 😂😂 trust me if Saudi wants him dead he would die by now unless he is some kind of a mastermind
I'm ready to move on from esports...
Formula 1 pays there casters good money because they existed before companies had so much power to go over head of word of mouth and now the money they are on is still stuck at a fair rate you think if formula 1 starts today any caster is getting payed the same money in 40 years i fucking doubt it.
The subscription + donation model starts out just fine, until an "individual" like JerkyzMinion comes around with too much skrilla and turns Thorin into their propoganda machine
Elaborate on that.
@@ioanbardan5150 It was supposed to be a joke that the dude who donates the most money to Thooorin is actually a bad actor funding him. Every thooorin video (and some other CS content creators) always give a special shoutout to JerkysMinion (
@@bransonS Ah fair enough, I thought you were being serious :)
its funny bc in context its literally identical to the situation of FIFA allowing Qatar to host this years world cup out of the fucking blue.
My gods, why did I spend time looking through the comments on this video. I was hoping for an interesting debate, yet most of what I find is people slinging hate at eachother. I'm starting to miss overhearing douche bags in the pub talking about football as if they're the next Alex fucking Ferguson.
come on monty, this is a historical record of this space and you got to eat peanut butter toast on cam? keep it a bit more professional
Who is Montecristo?
nice
So when are we gonna get an ARAB league for LOL? Why aren't there Indian Fakers yet?
1:59:00 Biden Numbers confirmed
Esports isnt really a thing until around 2013/2014
Good vid and important of you guys to shed light on these issues - one comment I had as this is predominantly a western audience listening to this....there is a lot of warranted outrage directed (fairly so) at Saudi Arabia and other human right abusers but let's not pretend that the US and to a lesser degree the UK, are also one of the biggest and violent human right abusers on the planet..food for thought when Western figures are outraged only when its not talking about their own governments actions
This is brought up albeit very briefly.
behaviour score should also be a factor for queue time. If you have a great score, youre fast tracked in queue for games and lobbies. If you have a shit score, then you gotta wait to be queued up with other fuckin loser subhuman fucks, with an artificially boosted queue time for the worst offenders. Would be sweet to see how that works out.
Yeah...no. You sound like a social worker.
@@Habeev07
As always, alot of ignorance and misinformations about saudi arabia after every successful movement. At least have a saudi guest to clarify for you what is really happening in my country
i would love to see one of the spineless bastards try and defend the atrocities happening, but its not gonna happen.
@@sneauxday7002 calm down , the deal is done and your crying won’t change anything, i just want you to educate yourself about my beautiful and peaceful country
beautiful and peaceful... where have i seen that before?
@@sneauxday7002
Yes it is beautiful and more peaceful than almost all western countries
At least in Saudi if some criminal really did hurt one of your family members you will one day see that criminal on his knees begging mercy
Unlike the western countries someone can enter a mosque and shoot people like they are animals and still he lives to this day that is literally just like the medieval ages in Europe
@@Ahmed-Bin-Koshari can i ask, if you were a woman would you think the same thing? Just a question not trying to attack you or anything
Wait so Thorin is moral high grounding this guy and then he’s taking his investment money too? How is that different?
Ee
They are such pearl-clutching dweebs now its depressing.
I don't think you can compare China to Saudi Arabia, as in that China clearly pro actively want's to spread their morals and influence public oppinions and perspective of the world of China. I'm not sure if Saudi gov even cares about anything but making money even if it is in a business opposes their own morals. Still blood money though, but then again what investors money is clean now a days..... Btw I don't think viewers don't want to play, it is the standard that was set by RIOT by making it free. It is a pretty hard sell to first take something away that is free and then sell it back to you. But I think it is possible if the content and the platform is good enough. You also got to understand that the demographic was very different back then. The demographic now may be more willing to pay for content.
the saudis have been funding extremist mosques and preachers in the rest of the world including the west so i would say they do spread their morals
@@jakobbokaj123 yup and west just lets them do that its fucked up
There's so much to unpack about all of this, with so many nuanced shades of grey about what level of responsibility anyone takes on by the way they spend or accept money, but I have to say I hate the take that you cannot uphold any moral stance at all if you align yourself in any way with a body that transgresses that moral stance. That's garbage black and white reasoning for children, and not how an adult should interact with the world. Saying you cannot fight sexism in your immediate surroundings because you accept a well paid dream job in a company that is now owned by a sexist body would be ridiculous, and massively oversimplifies the problem with the sexist body or how it ought to be tackled. Arguably further exposing Saudi to western culture, western media, and so on, is a much greater impetus for socio-cultural and political change than would be rejecting the investment, or even worse just quitting your job, personally. The point is even made here that if you grand stand in this way, so black and white about an abstracted connection to something evil, then you must do so with everything all the time, including basic things like where you buy your food and clothes, and where you take all your money.
No conversation would be allowed whatsoever, and no impetus for any kind of change or betterment, would ever take place, anywhere, if anyone who in any tiny, abstract way aligned themselves with anything that transgressed their principles wasn't permitted a credible voice. It's such a childish reason to shut down the conversation or tell someone their stated principles are worthless/fake, and comes across as mildly insincere from people so clearly intelligent. Your agency with respect to anything that transgresses your morals also has to matter. Otherwise this was a brilliant, if depressing, conversation. I just don't know if we have the capacity to be reasonably expected to take on moral responsibility for things well beyond our immediate social sphere, or what that expectation would look like in practice if it was even possible to coherently exist.
I felt the same way consumers are not responsible for the decisions that board rooms, ceos, and hedge funds make most major corporations have 50 major share holders so less than 100 people in every major corporation make the important decisions very common to serve on multiple boards with a lot of obvious nepotism don’t see how consumers who are forced to buy computers or smartphones in our modern economy just to have a job and survive are equally responsible for corporations choosing to use child slave labour something I’m sure the majority of people watching this video would not want it’s a product ultimately of the lack of ethical consideration we have regarding money neo liberalism is the cancer here it simply doesn’t work and serves only the needs of the few at the expense of the many
Saudi Arabia has an ancient culture and morals which have remained steadfast even while Liberalism proliferated in the west. We can't say they're evil just because they've maintained their traditional culture/morals.
If you're not a moral relativistist who actually believes in the rights of minority groups, you most definitely can. If something is not morally acceptable where you are, then it's not morally acceptable anywhere. Fuck off with the "but it's their traditional way of life" bull shit. It's wrong or it's not. Maybe we changed our traditions because the traditions were wrong.
think Monte saying none of you got a billion , lets hope things get better and let god deal with the rest
Bro half this episode is talking about virtue signaling while virtue signaling. Also they talk about all the problems of the industry without talking about why. They imply it's just bloodsucking shitty moral-less people but in reality it's just our current late stage capitalistic society. It's how it has to run unless things change. Asking questions without thinking of any conclusion doesn't make you smart these guys get so upset without coming close to an answer it's wild.
What is the answer?
It isnt virtue signaling if you stand by your claims and these people massive records of doing the same. I do w the comment about the capitalistic society you made but your last point is quite bizzare where you say how can someone get so upset if they cant come close to finding a solution where i do believe how a lot of people get upset is cause they cant find a solution to an answer
Do you even understand basic english? They spent maybe half an hour of screen time explaining why is this a problem and the roots of the esports problems with VC and quick expansion. Tf you on about?
Asking questions and opening the discussion is more important than coming with a whole theoritical recipe, and that's not even true they proposed that a subscription to watch pro matches can be one of the potential solutions to avoid getting money from these parties. So what do you want from them? Do the whole thinking for you and providing it with a napkin? What a fuckin hater reasoning, jesus christ...
virtue signalling is not an argument it is an appeal to emotion which is not based on facts.
It's great, everyone "talks" about how they want to see esports grow and expand, but here comes an investor that actually backs it up with cold hard cash, and people can still find ways to complain. It's good business and it's going to be great for esports going forward. If you're an SJW that is just looking for anything to complain about just to satisfy your narcissistic need to feel good about yourself, you can take a hike.
So wait, Thorin's an SJW now? Bloody hell.
@@RLewisReports they know who they are, I have no idea who Thorin is
@@HowieW928 most misinformed ignorant take ive seen maybe ever. i think you should leave thinking to competent humans and never publicly project your thoughts ever again
@@sneauxday7002 Thank you for taking the time to reply to me, but I'm sure there're some black people wearing Xinjiang cotton riding baby seals down what's left of the Amazon rainforest on a warm day who REALLY REALLY needs you to advocate for them instead.