Testing 3D Print Bonding Methods with Punished Props (Glue/Epoxy/Welding)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 เม.ย. 2017
- I visited Bill from Punished Props the other day, and we did some tests on the best way to bond 3d printed parts. We tested glues and epoxy as well as friction welding and 3d pens! Testing was fun, and not incredibly scientific, HOWEVER, we came to some very interesting conclusions!
Go visit Punished Props!
/ punishedprops
== Support the Channel via Patreon!
= 3d.pn/patreon
== Find Me Socially
= Twitter: / joeltelling
= Facebook: / 3dprintingnerd
= Instagram: / joeltelling
== Shop at the Affiliate Links Below to Help the Channel!
= Printed Solid: 3d.pn/printedsolid
= Matterhackers: 3d.pn/matterhackers
== Want some 3D Printing Nerd Swag?
= 3D Printing Nerd shirt! 3d.pn/shirt
= 3D Printing Nerd mug! 3d.pn/mug
Want to send me something for Fan Mail Friday?
attn: 3D Printing Nerd
509 NE 165th st
Shoreline, WA 98155
USA
Royalty Free Music by www.audiomicro.com/royalty-fre... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
hahahaha i love it. drunk nerds breaking plastic! love you guys im subscribing now haha
Hahahah YOU ARE MY FAVORITE. I'm going to pin this right now.
"None of these is gonna hold 4lbs!" - Bill, 2017
Oh yeah, he was eating those words rather quickly :)
Up there with Bill Gates' ''64k should be enough for everyone''
Bill and Joel's Amazing Alcoholically Activated Adhesive Adventures. Win!
For the 3d print gun, you could have made a V-grove like when welding metal.
Stress-wise, all the stress is at the top and bottom anyway. That's why H beams are shaped the way they are.
I ordered props that needed to be joined but had no experience doing so. This was perfect thank you so much!
If you do this again you should use a reference piece of solid printed plastic to see how much that will hold.
Great effort by the way! But I cant help but point out certain things that have to be addressed for it to be really scientific, to a certain degree.
1 - The point/distance from the joint has to be consistent
2 - All joints must be given sufficient time to cure, unless of course we're doing a 'strongest joint in 1 hour' test
3 - Weights should be consistent, ie: use a scale and a press (like Matthias Wandel's tests)
4 - Repeat the experiment several times/ bigger sample size
Not to hate, but would absolutely love to see a video with the issues address. Again, great video otherwise!
Hey! True, Bill and I would need to change some things in order to do this "right". I mean, we had a great time, and the results we did get ARE pretty cool. That said, if there is enough interest for us to do this again, we'll set out to do it right.
do it again lol. If you don't I will and then nobody will see it...
"We've run out of heavy things" ignore the toolbox behind me full of spanners or all the rolls of tape
You clearly need to contact the Ministry of Stacking Things on Top of Other Things.
Oh, this needs a revisit with a pull scale! This will definitely make a popular followup video!
I enjoyed this whole video, even the testing method, and you mentioned the possibility of the other curing methods needing longer, so that's fair. I am very surprised by the 3D printing pen! I expected it to do pretty well, but it did better than I expected.
great video. Glad you guys did it. I've been trying to get more people aware of 3D welding, wrote a blog about it for TypeA. Using the actual material to fuse parts is just so awesome. Besides, it's another reason to get a great new tool.
I don't thing you mentioned it - but we're the parts PLA or ABS... Or something else??
I do like the scientific approach, but you should to redo this with minimum 24 hour cure times and a steady rig to test them, if possible also do 5 examples of each.
Otherwise we are looking at all sorts of inconsistency from how it was put together and how it was tested.
MsSomeonenew agreed!
Which is probably the real life case :D
Yup. That's an eventual goal. This was the product of two guys hanging out in the shop, drinking some beers. I think our results are interesting, and if this is popular enough here on the TH-cams we will DEFINITELY revisit with a more consistent approach :)
for me the biggest problem here is that the result is a linear force (weight with gravitational acceleration)
while what show the strength under this stress is a torque, the distance between the center of gravity of the weight and the bound is crucial, and varied from 1 to 2 here
+Nagby3 True. It varied A LOT. We both want to revisit if we get enough feedback that people want to see it!
Great job guys! I was just about to buy a 3D pen when I watched your bonding test, it changed my mind. You saved me over $50 bucks if not more, Super Glue is far better than the others. Crude testing method, but efficient, Thank you!
I'm always searching out new ways to best bond 3D printed components. My favorite simple method is Loctite Ultragel. My favorite advanced method is stick welding with a soldering iron. Just clip a couple feet of PLA/PETG/Whatever filament and use the traditional stick welding method. Works like a charm.
Loving your video, you had my cracking up. I started watching because i just purchsed a 3d printed item and needed to glue it together! thank you!!!!! i ended up using super glue!
Did it leave a seam?
I loved this guys. do more like it please
The 3d printing pen method is awesome. I've been using it for months now. Though I typically go a step further with the 3d printing pen. I typically run a soldering iron with a sacrificial knife tip through the seem first, to both melt the parts together from the start as well as creating a "trough" or a bevel for the 3d pen. Then my pen is outfitted with a thick 1mm nozzle, and I push the same type of filament through it used in the printed parts. I push the nozzle of the pen into the trough/bevel thing, and move slowly. It remelts the side of the trough and I make sure to overfill it so I have something to sand down later to hide the seem completely.
If just running the pen over the top of the butt joint performed that well, I wonder how well my method would perform as it gets the plastic in between the parts as well.
I bet it would perform even better! If this proves to be a popular video, we will revisit for sure.
super helpful video. Thanks!! Would you please let me know what brand is the super glue?? and the accelerator?? thanks in advance
Nice one! Surprised, as you were, about the 3D Pen. Will definitely try that out. Just came across your channel. Really enjoying it. Surprised to see you 'were' at Adobe too! (Hopefully you chatted with the Research team in Seattle about Fabrication).
Loved the informal testing & the basic info. Who knew the 3D pen would work so well?
But the scientist in me was cringing throughout. Now I have to do some more testing. I think I'll clamp the end solid, drill a hole in the other end at a set point, then hang the weight from a line through the hole
I dunno why, but this video was so great! it was so exciting, and I really had a lot of fun! :D
Nice overview, thanks! I've found that PVC cement is good for PETG, due to it's chemical similarity (which is nice, as other adhesives like CA won't bond to it) but yeah, I wouldn't expect it to be a good solvent for PLA or ABS. (If it melts in acetone, it likely won't dissolve in MEK and vice versa)
Testing method was off. But you guys rock and I'm sure you'll put together a great way to test the strength better. Thanks for the video
You'll find that the 3D-Pen weld will work much better if you hold the pen at an angle such that the hot nozzle melts a channel into the pieces that you're welding and then lays the pen's filament into that channel so that the plastic from the pen and two pieces melt together for the bond. Not only does this make a stronger weld, it can also be more smooth if you get really good at it.
Bigtime. I meant to elaborate on that in my recent reply. That's the exact method I use when welding 2 pieces together with a 3D Pen.
Great test
Is nice to see you an Bill bonding (pun intended)
PUN!
xkcd.com/559/
which accelerant did you use? Loved the video btw!!
For PLA you should try Dichloromethane, i have used this extensively for all sorts of modelling and printing including some structural, it has a fantastic capillary action, meaning that you can hold two pieces together and then hit the joint with the Dichloromethane and it will wick into the joint. In my experience the part will usually fail long before the joint will.
Great video topic gentlemen! I often wondered what the best adhesive would be for my multi-part prints.
Well, time to return my epoxy and buy some more super glue.
Well, keep that epoxy around just in case! Remember, everything we had was MAX cured for two hours. Give it another 22 hours or so, and it may be a different ballgame.
Good Point! #HighFive
This has always been an area I wanted to learn more about but never had the resources or knowledge of adhesives. The 3D pen performed surprisingly well considering it was merely plastic. I was wondering if some of these pieces may have failed due to the plastic wall not adhering to the other printed walls.
Just an idea if you two ever revisit this, perhaps you may clamp the prints on an elevated platform then hanging a bag at the end. This way, you can scale up the weights accordingly without space limitations while keeping a consistent weight placement and momentum during testing.
Calling Stefan at CNC Kitchen! The king of scientific testing of 3D prints.
YES! Stefan, book your flight to Seattle so you, me, and Bill can do some testing! :)
so close, and yet so far. y'all really need to be consistent with your method of testing. I would like to see a redo with a consistent test method and potentially, a variety of cure times and orientation of the force.
So close? Come on, not THAT close, Edmund :) Yes to being more consistent, but, this wasn't really about the consistency, this was more about having some fun together. Our results WERE interesting, though!
3D Printing Nerd ah, true. I just felt sad for the epoxy and other glues that didn't get the curing time they deserved 😢
3D Printing Nerd also, if you do revisit, I would love to see; include a soft material class, try breaking it under tension as well as bending, and maybe under torsion.
A fun experiment! Some suggestions:
When placing the weights on the test material, you are dealing with a fulcrum at the joint. The further toward the edge away from this fulcrum that the weight is placed increases the effective load on the joint. Therefore, in order to be consistent in your test procedure, all of the weights need to be placed in the same position every time. Your second set of experiments are totally different because of the way the weights were placed. But there is a better way to do this.
The measurements you are making are very coarse (1 pound increments). You would get more accurate results if you apply the downward force with a fish scale (ounces or gram scale) or something similar. A hole could be drilled in the test piece to attach it. Gradually pull down on the scale and record the weight just before breaking occurs. Also, replace the metal clip you are using with a block of wood and a C-clamp or something similar to avoid flexing. And allow a full cure time before testing.
If you really want to take this experiment to the next level, then perform the above in at least triplicate to see if you get consistent results. You only need to do this on the top 3 or so performers.
One last thing - roughing up the edges to be bonded will typically improve your results as this adds "tooth" for the adhesive to bind to. JB Weld and Epoxies will benefit from this typically.
I like the idea of repairing broken 3d prints with gold filament from a 3d pen kind of like the practice in Japan where some people will repair pottery with gold to not hide the flaw but to accentuate it. Then again I am trying to art while drinking while watching two guys science while drinking so perhaps, I should re-evaluate this idea tomorrow.
+Brian Raif Nah. This idea is PERFECT
Awesome! Now I just need to get that first printer so I can break some stuff!
I use straight acetone on my abs prints to butt joint two pieces. And a thin slurry (slightly thicker than water) for gap fill. Any thicker and there is too much already dissolved plastic for the acetone to dissolve the joined pieces and form a strong bond. I did this to a model boat for my sons bath and trying to snap the joint by hand (more than 15lbs of pressure on each side of the joint) caused no failure.
Oh interesting. Thank you for the thips!
Excellently informative video, it's exactly what i was looking for, as i need to glue a pla part and don't have a day to wait for it to cure! It's not scientific, but it is 'real world' applicable, because most of us aren't going to be assembling parts in a perfect environment, and we're usually strapped for time and won't be able to give a full 24 hrs to dry.
Joel you silly, anything done while drinking beers is scientific. Thats fact.
TRUTH!
You should try out a cheap plastic welder like you can grab at Harbor Freight. They're basically a soldering iron with a modified tip made to heat weld bits of plastic together.
That's an interesting idea. We may do that.
I saw a Kickstarter that made some additional tips for a USB soldering iron (really cheap, like 5$)
and in the comments they said, it's nearly the stock tip only with an extra layer so the plastic doesn't stick as much to the iron. And well some different forms (like a bent tip)
on Gearbest it is called "USB Soldering Iron 5V 8W" but they can be found anywhere.
Definitely should reprint the test pieces, use the same bonding agents, but sand the surfaces (one rough one smooth). Then allow a 24hr cure time to make sure everything had fair time to set in place. Then of course, more weight.
For what it's worth though, the best way to test them definitely is that bridge method in my opinion, and you guys shed some light on the strengths that were available. looks like I'll be super gluing and epoxying certain parts over others now.
Thanks for the video!
Entertaining and informative video. When bonding two 3D-printed parts together, I use an industrial-strength hot glue gun to spot glue the two pieces together, then weld the outside perimeter with a 3D pen to lock them in. Once I sand the seam down, it feels practically indestructible.
Your shot of the CA "super glue" bottle was a little blurry, but is it the Bob Smith Industries brand? I noticed it was the _Gap-Filling_ formula. I wonder if the results would vary with their other viscosities (super thin or extra thick)? That would be an interesting experiment.
Wasn't surprised about the super or the 3D pen. However, I was surprised the pen held up with just a bead across it. The technique I use with the pen is common for standard welding. Using welding patterns had provided much better results and having a pen that does different speeds is a plus. Good job on the tests though!
i would like to know if these parts were PLA or ABS and also what brand of superglue you used (as an activator was mentioned ) and another thing was what spray was used after the hot glue .. none of this was spoke of in the vid .. :/
if you print with a brim, you can also superglue/glue the brim to the back of your seams to add more strength
Can you please advise me some suitable adhesive for gluing 3D printed plastics (PLA, ABS, PETG, PET, etc. I do not care about the material primarily), which could be unglued so that the 3D print is not damaged and can be glued again?
Very helpful for choosing bonding materials! I think for cosplay props, using the 3d printing pen wouldnt be ideal as you would want to smooth out your seams and that would essentially get rid everything bonding it together... unless the heat from the pen is what bonded it together
Question: I have been using super glue and it is not bonding very well to my PLA model, is there a certain type that maybe has worked for you? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I did purchase a 3D pen but I want to use the super glue to spot hold my parts before I use the pen.
In my experience the ABS slurry has never let me down. Super glue forms a brittle bond but ABS really feels like a weld. Just got to give it some time to cure depending on the viscosity of the slurry. Entertaining video guys!
awesome sauce, I've got a new use for my 3d pen now lol
What pen are you using
Good video. Even though the methods were not scientifically correct, I think the point was made pretty well. I'd like to see more with things like a soldering iron and plastic weld added to the mix. Also I think it would be interesting to see how much weight 100mmx50mmx5mm(basicially your 2 test pieces put into one) print could hold. Pretty surprised about the 3d printing pen results there, but I bet when thats sanded flush it would fall into a much lower category
I get the feeling you're right, and sanding flush would have to be added to the mix for any follow-up. Also, I think you're right - we had valid results!
There's a product I use on all kinds of plastic, Made by GT Motorsports called Plastex. it wont "glue" 2 pieces together but after I set them with "Rapidfuse", I can backfill the joint or a gap and it is incredible strong
I thought you said this was not scientific, with terms like mooshy, it's definitely scientific.......thumbs up Joel.........
+Jimmy Kuros hahahah yes! Mooshy is definitely a scientific term!
So this is all PLA? Was the ABS slurry used to weld ABS or PLA? No Dichloromethane based solvent like Weld-On?
hot glue si my go to to temporarily hold stuff in place pretty securely and peel/break it apart later with both sides in tact. Using low melt is a bit easier.
also e-600 is pretty sturdy, but it needs to dry for at least 24 hrs. Nice because it dries glass-clear even when in blobs.
What super glue and activator did you use? Also what material pla? Or abs?
After The Glue Wars, the dishwasher remained supreme, most resins have stepped it up since then and this, but I bet the dishwasher is still the best test
If you want more bang out of the 3d pen method you should bevel or chamfer the corners and create a groove weld. It allows for more surface area to be bonded by the pen.
Suprisingly riveting!
you guys so high... me too... awesome just what I wanted to watch.... thanks.. keep up good work
I work in furniture and we have plastic patterns you can use c60 to melt them together which is what we do not sure how it will do on abs/pla and such but I will find out in the future lol
Great video guys, I think I will be buying a 3D pen to "weld" my parts together. As far as this test goes and all the delaminations. Wouldn't a rough surface perform better than a smooth surface? Since the glues would have something to grab on to.
This is interesting. I have some JB Weld MinuteWeld and while it's great, I have to wait 24 hours to attain full strength. I'm thinking of using Zip kicker on it. Have you guys tried that?
A lot of comments, so may have overlooked this if someone has already brought it up. But For PLA (and acrylics) Weldon #4 is the way to go. Put your pieces together, use tape if more than three hands are required and then with a needle applicator, wick the solvent into the joint. It will solvent weld the two pieces together. Do not breathe the stuff! Use in a well ventilated area.
Most entertaining 30 mins of the day... What dose that say about me?
It says that you are an awesome person. 100%.
What superglue and activator did you use?
12:41 - Dude really likes breaking beer bottles lol The other dude had enough of that silliness.
I was at horrible freight and found some epoxy that is specific for plastics, they did not really say what kind but I thought about picking some up to try. however I currently use super glue and baking soda that is pretty good.
What brand of superglue did you use?? And what kind of 3D pen and filament did you use? I’d love to get the exact ones for durable results as I’m trying to learn to create cosplay stuff
Totally loved the non-scientific experiment and this gives us great insights.
Would also love to see an extension of this test with 24+ hours curing time and good consistent weights
I can't agree on this more. The results are quite surprising, especially the 3D printing pen. I would love to see this test with a more stable rig, more graduated amounts of weight to add, and multiple equally-assembled test pieces with each method of the ones that performed well. Frankly I'm also just curious how much weight it actually will take to break the superglue or printing pen joints!
If you print those test blocks with chamfered edges, the friction and pen methods may be a better bond. This method is used in machine shops to get more surface area involved in the bond between metal plates when welded.
+Jerry Oswald we talked about that and may implement something like that when we do this again. We could print the chamfered edge AND mechanically make it as well
i thought of all the science tests i did in engineering school and was think no no no to this... at first. but you showed a somewhat consistency in how you performed the test. you gave a real (in a pinch) test to the different joints. sure you didn't create a test sequence of multiples per test type or a lenear graph for trend line nor did you adhere to the "full" cure recommendation. lol i am not ripping on yall. what you proved though is something as basic as super glue will work wonderfully and efficiently for PLA. you could also create an arguement of material type for pla, humidity, temperature, flexing of material...etc... overall enjoyable to watch.
Isopropyl alcohol like 2-3$ works as a liquid activator and baking soda for solid activator for super glue, I did want to mention to that activators heat up ca glue quite a bit probably enough to melt the print pretty easy so don't use too much but in small amounts the melting helps strength by welding
A lot of you seem to live close to each other, bet you could have an awesome makerspace.
Have you tried this with resin welding for sla printers?
Hello Joel
I was a meteorologist at Rockwell inc. that the since of weights and measures Good try what I would suggest is to first read and know the cure times for the different glues. Next your testing method I would suggest a stand where the top half of the test part is clamped in with the second half below it clamp a test weight gauge with a max weight marking arm on the dial or just use a digital then either hang weights on it or just put your foot in some kind of sturip until you get failure. you might also try using a 1 inch square test block so your findings could be stated in lbs per sq inch really enjoyed watching but did not find a lot of useful info due to not knowing the cure times for the glues in order to judge their strength
LOL, 3d printing pen sales soar overnight! Nicely done. Now I have a reason to have a 3D printing pen??? Haha...
+shenqiangshou hahaha. Right? I've had one forever and THIS was the most I had used it!
A friend kickstarted one of the fancy 3d printing pens, and used it all of... 15 minutes? I was literally talking to him today about maybe using it to bond 3d printed parts together, or to fix cracks, etc, and then you made a video, perfect timing :) but definitely surprising results with the pen. I'd always just used the gel type of superglue to fix cracks on my prints before.
I wonder how many beers Bill had to not think to put the blocks below the beer bottle 😂
hahhahahahaha man, you were getting drunk as the video goes hahahahah
i loved and laugh a lot
Nice and fun video, we learnt more or less, with what dmnd thing, can we bond better our 3d prints, i don´t know if the test would have the big seal of approval of NASA , or give us a clue for our PhD thesis in polymer bonding. XD. but that obviously was not the purpose. Keep it up!.
I see blue and gray tiles, but is there a material difference? PLA/ABS?
I am surprised by the JB weld. it has a cure time of 6 hours. so doing that well after 1 hour is awesome
There is a type of JB Weld available for plastics. I have not tried it but it could be an option.
What material are you using? PLA, ABS, or ?
The circular friction weld was very similar to how a a tig weld works. A small stack of dimes.
Tips for improving the test:
Watch Toms videos where he does filament strenght tests. Use a scale that has a peak force memory function. Then you can just add water to a bucket on a string attached to that scale and hang the other end of the scale to your test piece. (Make shure the scale can not drop in the water bucket ;) )
In general, i was really surprised you did not use water bottles or some liquid container as weigths. Easy to get in every house and the density of water is not that bad.
It may be surprising that the 3D printing pen held up that well when you only apply it on the outside seam of the joint, but when you think about it, with the way you applied the test force, you only get compression forces on the top layers and expanding forces on the lowest layers. The middle of the joint does not see any forces at all. And since the 3D-pen basically remelts the PLA to extrusion temperature you get almost the same strength as if it was printed together in one piece.
Really shocked at the hot glue honestly. I am impressed.
True fact:
I had a Customer that had a fleet of flatbed International Maxxforce 7 diesels. These were not well engineered and my customer wanted them to continue running as they were almost paid off.
One of the Maxxforce engines had a coolant leak and we found the engine block coolant passage was porous allow coolant to externally leak through small like pinholes. My customer didn't want to replaced the engine so we tried a temporary solution we did not think would work, but it was better than $16k.
I had my lead tech drain coolant from engine block, drill out the small pin hole cavitations and use JB weld to seal it up (take place of the porous black casting). Diesel truck went 9 months, 29k miles until the motor let loose a timing gear and took out the engine. The JB weld worked.
Nice video.
For tests like this, you can C-clamp one side to your table, and attach a C-clamp to the other. Hang a 5 gallon bucket off the C-clamp, and slowly add water or sand to failure. After it breaks, weigh the bucket. A full bucket of water will be over 40 pounds.
Awesome testing video! :D that was suspenseful and humorous..answered a lot of my questions. Cheers!
Came here to see if I should glue a 3D printed video game gun together with 5 minute epoxy or CA glue. Turns out either would be more than adequate. Thanks, guys.
I would also stack them in a sandable category, when making big builds I like to tac together with AC glue and activator , then weld with a 3d pen , final result is easier to sand and paint. compared to epoxy
3D pen add material though
Wtb MEK to bond pla parts?
3D printer version of Mythbusters )))
The 3D pen durability surprised so much. Especially when you only welded outer part of seam.
should not be too surprising. a weak point of epoxies (typically brittle) with the interaction of something more elastic like 3d printed plastic is the difference in material properties.
"Attach plastics to other plastics" somehow reminds me of Monty Python's "Society to put things on top of other things" :)
Bill keeps his popsicle sticks in the same cup I use for my morning coffee. They probably don't taste as good.
Yes, he does. I think after a while you just get used to the taste.
Was the blue PLA and the gray ABS?
What type of plastic did you test?
put a scale on your test rig w/ a camera looking at the scale and slowly add more weight. Something like a digital fish scale. Push the test pieces until it breaks.
Would like to see this again with various filaments too.
Rad! I think we will try to revisit, had a TON of positive feedback!
A little surprised you went to the trouble to do the slurry, but didn't try ABS cement. The kind we use on ABS plumbing, like the PVC glue you tried is used for PVC pipes.