Really fascinating design! I wonder if 2 smaller steppers on each end of the X axis gantry might make it overall more balanced in weight-shifting instead of one heavy stepper with the leadscrew in mid air.
Using lead screws instead of belts is a great idea. While it may add weight to the gantry it removes belt tensioning and provides better accuracy . Great engineering!
Honestly, using ball screws instead of belts is the worst idea i have ever heard. First of all, balls screws are very expensive and so are the motor which you will need to drive them, because you cant use regular stepper motors to get up to speed. Also this design uses an extra motor on the gantry which is completely unnecessary, thus making the gantry heavier and decreasing vibration performance and decreasing the overall accseleration and speed. It is still prett fast but not as fast and cost effective as a corexy design. Also, fdm 3d printing is not made to be extremely precise to that point where ball screws are necessary. The Printer will not be more accurate with the ball screw design than with the traditional belt design. Ball screws just dont belong onto 3d Printers
@@vennox1598 You need to understand that this printer is meant for mainly industrial and scientific purposes but I think the price of this printer is too much for what it brings. Using belts might be practical if you want to print a part at a relatively slow speed but there is a point where you cant have belts used to print fast and accurately. I agree that having the motor on the x axis gantry is gonna make it way more heavier but having ballscrews not only gives more precision(as shown in some cnc machine concepts) it removes the need for belt tensioning which is something corexy printers have to callibrate in order to get a good print. While ball screws will not allow to print crazy fast it provides good accuracy and good speed combined with not much tinkering due to not having any belts to tension. I am also skeptical with you as to why a sane person would buy a 10,000 dollar 3d printer if you can buy a good sls printer that has way better accuracy, requires barely any tinkering, can print metal, and can print at fast speeds. I bet some person could build this same printer for under 2k.
@@vennox1598 yeah it really is not. Having a massive ball screw motor on the x axis and having a very overweighted toolhead that also costs 1000 dollars(im not joking) is a horrible idea and there are way better printers that you can get for 10,000 dollars.
Using ball screws is definetly the way to go for Accuracy, and at that speed, with barely any vibrations? Great idea! Very innovative, sounds expensive doe ;(
Im just getting into 3d printing. Got my Bambu P1S last week. It would be cool to know what I am looking for. Seems like a lot of other commenters realize how cool this thing is, but to me, with little printing experience, it just looks like another printer. I would love to be able to appreciate it like others leaving comments do, but I dont know what I am looking at as far as what is innovative about this design. Admittedly I can be a little desnse when it comes to some things :(
My only concern with using lead screws with a heavy print head is power usage. How does this compare to the lighter fast printers such as the voron or the 100?
I think NEMA 23 and ball screws are just way too hardcore for it. I know you have to move such a heavy print head and traverse. But those things are also way over the top in my opinion.
It's WAY too precise and rigid for the kinematic needs of this 3DP. Desktop metal went through this issue with their studio line. They run with it because precision is easy to execute with ball screws at the expense of dynamics and cost.
This is nice, but I need something bigger and this has a lot of scalability problems. I don't even want to ask how much your guys spent on that. I'm surprised that unsupported screw doesn't cause ringing problems at high speeds. I'm curious what the upper end of the feed rate is. I'm researching a similar design, but dropped the screws because of ringing and weight problems. Belts couldn't keep up either, so I went to high tension cables.
you can clearly see it's not generating ringing artifacts. it's on linear rail, supporting the end of the screw wouldnt do anything to improve and it's totally unnecessary constraint.
The ballnuts and the rest of the motion system should last over 100 years of continuous operation with maintenance (biannual clean and lubrication). Without maintenance, 10+ years, which is the length of our warranty. Replacement ball nuts are available for approximately $100 USD.
This printer seems to have combined all the new innovations in the hobby DIY scene with insanely tough hardware. $8000 is a lot, but compared with other machines of the same price, it blows them away. The only suggestion i would have is to make it a croxy instead of a cartesision moving gantry style. You would save a ton of weight from that servo on the y axis.
@@AvengerSho Though absolute zero backflash and 100% stiff every part of the printer is basically impossible. There will always be some inperfections so machine can still benefit from input shaping.
These ball screws seems really heavy. It's not CNC, printhead and X axis has to be possibly lightweight to move fast with high acceleration. It's shaking the whole machine with these not very fast movements already. Looks cool but it's actually terrible idea :)
why? it only costs way more and really has no benefits compared to cheap stepper motors. People who have tested servos motors in 3d printers, actually only noticed downsides in them. The movements 3d printers do, are totally different than what CNC machines do.
Why isnt the end if the ballscrew held? Weight savings or just unnessasary. I can imagine the critical speed of the ball screw to be quite high. But still worries me cuz aesthetics lol will you ever make a super heavy base kit? For rigidity reasons. Because if you take a look at drill tap machines (say the DT-2) you have to bolt it down to the floor to keep it going everywhere then again thats a 500+Kg motions system not a 2Kg motion system (correct me on that). would love to see a version of it with cast iron tho. good luck!
Great questions. The ballscrew is is only supported from one end because it would otherwise be over constrained. We don’t need a super heavy base kit because we designed it out. Our first version needed one and it was super annoying to move around. The floating frame is more than sufficient.
@@hg1496 best case, overconstrained axes cause excessive wear, destroy bearings and motors. worst case they cause skipping or cause movement axis to get completely stuck
The tool head isn’t held on magnetically. The click is the print head clicking onto the guide pins. There are also 4 bolts that go in after but putting screws on is bas content.
@@PantheonDesign exorbitant! Is pa-cf correct? What is the hotend temperature? It looks like you have two hotend heaters installed. Looking at the 3D printer, I can see the delicate concerns of engineers.
First thing I was noticing. I am surprised that we haven't seen much of that before in consumer printers. Seems much less of an hassle regarding maintainence
It's using ballscrews and rails. The rails are under the ballscrews. This is one way to solve a problem, but I don't think it's the best way. So much mass being slung around creates the need to use more massive structure. Seems needlessly massively over-engineered to the point of negative returns.
@@supergiantbubbles yeah, i intended to write belts instead of rails. don't the ballscrews have a higher gearing ratio than pulleys and belts? I thought you would want as low of a gearing ratio as possible for fast movement since stepper motors have their highest torque at lower rpms. I Imagine the extra weight isn't beneficial either
Honest question: what are the odds Bambu will still exist 5 years from now? We can talk about Prusa being overpriced, but Prusa's community is solid and they still actually exist/provide support. These random Chinese startups worry me.
@@theglowcloud2215 Considering what they are putting out, what are the odds that Prusa will exists when the Bambu Carbon comes out and costs the same as that half 3d printed pile of parts?
This is a hilarious statement. If you think the machines are even comparable. This is running on all ball screws. With Clearpath servos… the motion systems are not even comparable. This is a fast and supremely rigid Industrial machine. No a comercial coreXY that is locked down in every way and only allows one nozzle size…
![[TH]FFWS SEA Spring 2024 Knockout Stage - Day 18](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IfsyX-nCiZQ/mqdefault.jpg)
So glad I got to see you guys at RAPID TCT - Nero3D had a ton of good things to say as well about your printer.
Really fascinating design! I wonder if 2 smaller steppers on each end of the X axis gantry might make it overall more balanced in weight-shifting instead of one heavy stepper with the leadscrew in mid air.
They use servo motors…
@@tfb12345 Servos are closed loop feedback steppers so it doesn't change anything about what I said.
Would like to see more of this machine.
I would love to see this thing run in person. Would be awesome if you guys did an open house or something sometime.
Where are you located?
@@PantheonDesign downtown Vancouver
@@paulmcewen7384 well then. We can certainly have you over some time. When we’re back from Rapid.
@@PantheonDesign Awesome! thanks guys
@@PantheonDesign haha I'm stuck in Idaho lol, probably not seeing this until I buy one.
Using lead screws instead of belts is a great idea. While it may add weight to the gantry it removes belt tensioning and provides better accuracy . Great engineering!
Honestly, using ball screws instead of belts is the worst idea i have ever heard. First of all, balls screws are very expensive and so are the motor which you will need to drive them, because you cant use regular stepper motors to get up to speed. Also this design uses an extra motor on the gantry which is completely unnecessary, thus making the gantry heavier and decreasing vibration performance and decreasing the overall accseleration and speed. It is still prett fast but not as fast and cost effective as a corexy design.
Also, fdm 3d printing is not made to be extremely precise to that point where ball screws are necessary. The Printer will not be more accurate with the ball screw design than with the traditional belt design. Ball screws just dont belong onto 3d Printers
I also have mixed feelings about this but at the same time I really wanted to see someone do this :D
@@vennox1598 You need to understand that this printer is meant for mainly industrial and scientific purposes but I think the price of this printer is too much for what it brings. Using belts might be practical if you want to print a part at a relatively slow speed but there is a point where you cant have belts used to print fast and accurately. I agree that having the motor on the x axis gantry is gonna make it way more heavier but having ballscrews not only gives more precision(as shown in some cnc machine concepts) it removes the need for belt tensioning which is something corexy printers have to callibrate in order to get a good print. While ball screws will not allow to print crazy fast it provides good accuracy and good speed combined with not much tinkering due to not having any belts to tension. I am also skeptical with you as to why a sane person would buy a 10,000 dollar 3d printer if you can buy a good sls printer that has way better accuracy, requires barely any tinkering, can print metal, and can print at fast speeds. I bet some person could build this same printer for under 2k.
@@stardust8058 i fully agree with you, great comment! I just wouldnt call this machine "great engeneering"
@@vennox1598 yeah it really is not. Having a massive ball screw motor on the x axis and having a very overweighted toolhead that also costs 1000 dollars(im not joking) is a horrible idea and there are way better printers that you can get for 10,000 dollars.
Using ball screws is definetly the way to go for Accuracy, and at that speed, with barely any vibrations? Great idea! Very innovative, sounds expensive doe ;(
Im just getting into 3d printing. Got my Bambu P1S last week. It would be cool to know what I am looking for. Seems like a lot of other commenters realize how cool this thing is, but to me, with little printing experience, it just looks like another printer. I would love to be able to appreciate it like others leaving comments do, but I dont know what I am looking at as far as what is innovative about this design. Admittedly I can be a little desnse when it comes to some things :(
Do you guys plan to add a three point kinimatic bed in the future?
I like...any videos of use in the wild. What parts typically need adjustment? Print quality examples?
Beautiful design.
It sounds kinda like an old plotter from the late 80's to mid 90's; and I freakin' love it.
Why though? Aren't the ball screws solving a problem introduced by the ball screws themselves?
(heavy moving mass)
My only concern with using lead screws with a heavy print head is power usage. How does this compare to the lighter fast printers such as the voron or the 100?
I think NEMA 23 and ball screws are just way too hardcore for it. I know you have to move such a heavy print head and traverse. But those things are also way over the top in my opinion.
It's WAY too precise and rigid for the kinematic needs of this 3DP. Desktop metal went through this issue with their studio line. They run with it because precision is easy to execute with ball screws at the expense of dynamics and cost.
Also not just NEMA 23 steppers, but clearpath servos
This is nice, but I need something bigger and this has a lot of scalability problems. I don't even want to ask how much your guys spent on that. I'm surprised that unsupported screw doesn't cause ringing problems at high speeds. I'm curious what the upper end of the feed rate is. I'm researching a similar design, but dropped the screws because of ringing and weight problems. Belts couldn't keep up either, so I went to high tension cables.
you can clearly see it's not generating ringing artifacts. it's on linear rail, supporting the end of the screw wouldnt do anything to improve and it's totally unnecessary constraint.
It looks like it would be immortal...
What runtime do you expect until maintenance is required?
The motion system needs a clean and grease annually and will run for decades. I can get the numbers for you.
New sub! Great work!
As the ballnuts wear and develop backlash, how costly is it to replace, and how soon?
The ballnuts and the rest of the motion system should last over 100 years of continuous operation with maintenance (biannual clean and lubrication). Without maintenance, 10+ years, which is the length of our warranty. Replacement ball nuts are available for approximately $100 USD.
Excellent. Now make a version with bellows so you can heat the chamber as high as you want.
This printer seems to have combined all the new innovations in the hobby DIY scene with insanely tough hardware. $8000 is a lot, but compared with other machines of the same price, it blows them away. The only suggestion i would have is to make it a croxy instead of a cartesision moving gantry style. You would save a ton of weight from that servo on the y axis.
@@levongevorgyan9018cross gantry xy is absolutly possible with lead screws. Corexy of course no but croxy surely.
they're fighting ringing not by software but by hardware. cant have ringing when the motion system is overbuilt with 0 backlash
@@AvengerSho Though absolute zero backflash and 100% stiff every part of the printer is basically impossible. There will always be some inperfections so machine can still benefit from input shaping.
Look at the wobble at 0:12.
@Levon Gevorgyan technically someone has made it but it has its own set of issues.
Now use rack and pinion and get rid of the lead screws
Lead screws for every axis? Hey that’s what I wanted to do!
Are they not ball screws
find ball screw (lead 16mm) reduce RPM rotation
Why are cervo motors so rarely used in 3D printers ?
Probably because they're expensive.
But for what we want, they're really good. We tried using steppers and we didn't get the acceleration we wanted, plus it was noisy as hell.
These ball screws seems really heavy. It's not CNC, printhead and X axis has to be possibly lightweight to move fast with high acceleration.
It's shaking the whole machine with these not very fast movements already. Looks cool but it's actually terrible idea :)
What's the build plate area volume?
300mm cubed
Nice printer! But why is the lead screw unsupported on the x axis?
It’s not necessary to support both ends, according to the ball screw manufacturer.
@@PantheonDesign It’s a sexy beast of a printer!
Nice Clearpath servos. That's a good sign.
why? it only costs way more and really has no benefits compared to cheap stepper motors. People who have tested servos motors in 3d printers, actually only noticed downsides in them. The movements 3d printers do, are totally different than what CNC machines do.
@@Nobody-Nowhere I was referring to the ClearPath servos specifically.
seems like way owerbuild for a 3d printer
next step is using "Jenny Science" gantry system XD
Why isnt the end if the ballscrew held? Weight savings or just unnessasary. I can imagine the critical speed of the ball screw to be quite high. But still worries me cuz aesthetics lol will you ever make a super heavy base kit? For rigidity reasons. Because if you take a look at drill tap machines (say the DT-2) you have to bolt it down to the floor to keep it going everywhere then again thats a 500+Kg motions system not a 2Kg motion system (correct me on that). would love to see a version of it with cast iron tho. good luck!
要りません.
Great questions. The ballscrew is is only supported from one end because it would otherwise be over constrained. We don’t need a super heavy base kit because we designed it out. Our first version needed one and it was super annoying to move around. The floating frame is more than sufficient.
@@PantheonDesign can you elaborate on what you mean on overconstrained and explain what would be the outcome?
@@hg1496 best case, overconstrained axes cause excessive wear, destroy bearings and motors. worst case they cause skipping or cause movement axis to get completely stuck
@@TMS5100 It's rare to see printers these days constrain a screw on both ends. FWIW, one end of a ball screw can be free, floating, or fixed.
I wonder how much it weighs.
About 140 pounds
@@PantheonDesignthat’s cheap
i really dont like that toolhead is magnetically held on i hope it isnt once you turn up accel and jerk i would think u would get some movement
The tool head isn’t held on magnetically. The click is the print head clicking onto the guide pins. There are also 4 bolts that go in after but putting screws on is bas content.
got any new videos on the HS3
Soon come. We'll be releasing some shorts
leveling sensor is not visible. What is?
It’s the nozzle. A semiconductor strain gauge on a flexion feature of the print head detects the nozzle contact on the bed.
@@PantheonDesign exorbitant! Is pa-cf correct? What is the hotend temperature?
It looks like you have two hotend heaters installed. Looking at the 3D printer, I can see the delicate concerns of engineers.
holy fuck must be nice to have money
2.75 mm?
1.75mm
Lead screw instead of belt? That seem like a route that I never see before. Impressive
It’s a ball screw
First thing I was noticing. I am surprised that we haven't seen much of that before in consumer printers. Seems much less of an hassle regarding maintainence
The build volume seems quite ridicule compared to the footprint of the printer...
Why is it using ball screws instead of rails?
It's using ballscrews and rails. The rails are under the ballscrews. This is one way to solve a problem, but I don't think it's the best way. So much mass being slung around creates the need to use more massive structure. Seems needlessly massively over-engineered to the point of negative returns.
@@supergiantbubbles yeah, i intended to write belts instead of rails. don't the ballscrews have a higher gearing ratio than pulleys and belts? I thought you would want as low of a gearing ratio as possible for fast movement since stepper motors have their highest torque at lower rpms. I Imagine the extra weight isn't beneficial either
@@pauhull these are clear path servos… does no one in these comments even research this machine?
OMG what a printer!!!
The Bambu X1 Carbon sort of puts this to shame no? (As far as the Price, Speed, and Tech goes)
Haha we’ll see.
Honest question: what are the odds Bambu will still exist 5 years from now? We can talk about Prusa being overpriced, but Prusa's community is solid and they still actually exist/provide support. These random Chinese startups worry me.
@@theglowcloud2215 Considering what they are putting out, what are the odds that Prusa will exists when the Bambu Carbon comes out and costs the same as that half 3d printed pile of parts?
This is a hilarious statement. If you think the machines are even comparable. This is running on all ball screws. With Clearpath servos… the motion systems are not even comparable. This is a fast and supremely rigid Industrial machine. No a comercial coreXY that is locked down in every way and only allows one nozzle size…
You pays yer money and you makes yer choice! :o)
The design is nothing new. The reason you don't see more printers running this type of hardware is strictly due to cost
Lead screw 🙄🙄
Ball screw
Over design
That's the right amount of design for what we're trying to do.