I worked at a company back in the early 90's that had a pen plotter that used this tech, and the plotter was from the late 60's to early 70's era. It was about the size of a twin-size bed, and about 5 feet tall - but was outrageously fast.
@@BeefIngot High speed plotting of maps. I worked for a digital cartography company back then. We were easily pumping out 30-50 plots a day and even then, that was "slow" time for the company. That, and you could slow it down for use with actual wet ink and vellum plots, very large sizes almost 5'x7' - but with super precision. Multi-color (it had four pen slots.) If you'd like to see what it looked like, look up the Xynetics 1000. The plotting head was magnetized to the underside of the top, and needed a little 1/3hp air compressor to push it down enough to where it could move freely. Where the paper was, it needed a giant blower motor to suck the paper flat on the bed and keep it in place. What really broke my heart was when we moved offices, the new place didn't have facilities to bring it to (we moved to a 2nd story of an office building instead of a warehouse type place) and we had to get a roll plotter to replace it. We literally dismantled it and sold it for scrap. I think the boss said it was $100k+ when they bought it in the early 1970's.
I would assume you're referring to xynetics--i was field service on those in the day (80’s)--in addition to flat bed plotters, there was a version called “wirematic” that made aircraft wiring harnesses…everything old is new aga…
What’s interesting about this platform is it should be relatively easy to add additional tool heads to make an IDEX even beyond. No additional belts are needed, just extra drivers and a longer x rail to provide parking space for unused tools.
@@BeefIngot it would add less mass than a conventional IDEX, which needs to move the mass of an additional (full size) stepper in y. In any case, if you print multiple parts (in parallel or mirror mode) a lot, a slower-moving IDEX will be much faster than a faster accelerating tool changer. So it's not really one or the other. Both have their place.
@@BeefIngot not everyone is looking for the same printer. IDEX is very useful for print farms, for example. I have an IDEX printer. I don't use it for everything, but when I need multiple copies of the same thing it's amazing, even though it has a much slower motion system than my fast printers. For dual-material prints, it's also very reliable in a way that tool changers have yet to prove they can achieve. There is a market for IDEX, companies like BCN3D, Raise3D, Craftbot, and at the lower-end Flashforge and Snapmaker, produce IDEX printers because there is a demand for them.
Despite all the quirks - this is the first printer in at least 5 years I would be exited to own. The sturdiness, the platform, the mechanism are an awesome starting point of something that will last for a very long time.
Exactly! I am tired of sketchy-mechanics nothing-new kind of commercial products we have seen in the past 5ish years. Now, this IS THE innovation! Almost perfect. No excuse for the lack of Z endstops and of the lack of mains insulation. For the bed part, I think that at this level, the bed *thermal* insulation should be standard as well. One little nitpick with the mechanics is that the axial bearings should ideally hold the Z axis screws directly, not through the flexible coupling. However, I see that they used an almost rigid coupling, and the bed system is almost a static load, so I can forgive them for that. Overall, as someone who sees the innovation and the improvement opportunities and also likes to fabricate things: I'd buy it!
And few minutes after he mentions they did not wanted him to do anything crazy before it started printing - I had immediate flashback to that drill scene :D
Definitely not the sort of thing the average user should be expected to do, so it's nice to have them get it out to technically minded people who are capable of helping them identify and solve these issues for them prior to real production.
Tom is great. We tested print for a few days before shipping. We believe the issue was caused by too tight of tolerance on the ring and impact during shipping that locked it up. Thankfully, Tom was able to fix it. We will address this in the production going forward.
Hats off to Peopoly for creating this awesome first of its kind printer. Agreed it needs some tuning and some adjustments for the safety concerns but yea, I can see this being a serious contender for best of the best 3D printers! A lot here for Peopoly to be proud of and cant wait to see this on the open market! Even the price while expensive is really not when you consider what went into building it! It for sure in its current state would not pass US safety laws and it really needs a crash mitigation for that hot end. I really cringed when I saw how hard that hit the build plate.
Looks like TH-cam is having a lazy day with processing this one up to 4k60... Guess it'll get there eventually! Just to clarify, I was assured the printer we're looking at in this video is identical to the production units - but as with anything, there will certainly still be changes to it down the road, whether those be for cost-saving or for improving certain aspects of the machine. The software (both the printer's firmware and the slicer) are still obviously a bit rough around the edges, but are much easier to update than hardware - with so few machines in the wild right now, I'm not considering this too much of an issue yet, but I do hope that the printer's tuning will improve over time or with community involvement. Let me know what comparisons, benchmarks or experiments you'd like me to do with the Magneto!
I know some further software updates are coming, should be a new round for the testers to validate this week. Hardware seems pretty solid at this point, it's mostly as you said the software. Luckily, it's klipper, so 98% of that is just dropping in a new config file!
This is bad. I thought this was a pre production unit. I mean, the safety, the bended nozzle. Those are huge problems and you said it yourself, this can't be sold to EU. I expected more from them. As a tech demo it is good but I'm not buying a tech demo.
By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the motor from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't. Surprisingly accurate description of how the closed-loop system works 👍 On the topic of grounding, the entire frame, bed and moving axes are meticulously grounded, so there should be absolutely no risk of the frame itself ever becoming live.
@@MadeWithLayers 😅👍 Since you know "a thing or two" about 3d printers, maybe you should switch into development. Using linear motors for x and y is somehow obvious, still no one has done it. I bet you also have some ideas on what can be improved in persue of the optimal/best fdm printer there can be.
@@MadeWithLayers But Clipper does still don't know where the printhead is. Time to fusion Marlin/Clipper/GRBL with it's source from EMC2/LinuxCNC and go realy full closed loop positioning system including the trajectory control system. This would be the real way to eliminate the ringing artefacts
*This whole section seems to have been copied almost word-for-word from an ancient training film about MISSILE GUIDANCE, which I have seen years ago, here on TH-cam:* _The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the motor from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't._ @@MadeWithLayers
This is something that has finally trickled its way down from Comercial CNC machines. No more belt noise at high speed. I loove this machine and it is on my Must have list!
its sure promising, but at this stage you and anyone else buying one, would be buying it out of an irrational lust for technological advancement and where they believe the quality will be/get to, not for any practical outcome, as any prints ive seen are pretty terrible, like really terrible. Not the benchie, obviously that was pretty good in some areas, so heres hoping its just tuning required.
@@Industry-insider expensive ones. linear motors have been around for years. Anyone presenting this as a peopoly invention is misinformed. All they have done is manufacture them at a scaled back power and a cost the 3d printer market will bare.
I actually got one of the pre-sale units ordered, and that enabled me to get updates when they made changes or if something happened like the delays. The reason I point this out is they seem extremely in tune with their customers and the sample units they sent out (like the one shown here) have been improved multiple times since they were built and shipped out to get some feedback from makers/content creators that deal with lots and lots of 3D printers and other hardware, after all - you guys will be tearing them apart and really finding out what is fantastic, what is good but needs improved, and what is so bad it would prevent sales, as well as have the knowledge on how one might go about fixing the issues. As of lately we got another 'month delay' so I won't be getting mine anytime soon, but it's nice the videos can start coming out to discuss.
Do you know if any of the problems he showed in this video have been ironed out I got a grant to get one for my business but after this video, I’m worried About the quality, a bunch of artifacting the bed ramming itself into the head, exposed mains voltage
I much prefer having a printer that is a little delayed than one that is totally unfinished. IMO, the Magnto hardware is in a good spot, and software is easily upgradable even once the units are already out in the wild.
that is a serious oversight of them, klipper does not allow moving the bed without knowing home first, unlesss you manually enter a Unsafe move macro so either it was a you issue, or they did something that messed this up, and allows unsafe moves... usually the nozzle probe would be used as a Z endstop, and you can only move the bed once the nozzle has verified Z max or min
Moving is indeed only allowed once the printer is homed, but it currently does not prevent you from moving to unsafe coordinates. What happened is that the printer was freshly homed, and instead of clicking "Z +25mm", I clicked "Z -25mm" as my exhausted brain thought I needed to move the bed "down", and the printer obliged. Only that this moved the nozzle further into the bed... Typically this is prevented with software endstops, but it seems like that feature is not currently enabled, and the loadcell as a Z endstop is likely also disabled outside of the actual homing and probing cycles to prevent false triggers e.g. during filament retracts.
@@MadeWithLayersit needs a failsafe to prevent nozzle/bed damage The load cell is there, so this is a coding issue, not a need for extra parts Ideally I'd like to see a position encoder on the vertical axis. Relying on the leadscrews is ok but not as good as actually measuring and linear encoders are fairly cheap
then it sounds like they did indeed misconfigure the printer in klipper, as in klipper you can set the endstop position, and the max z that is allowed to move, incase of a nozzle probe it should both be the same, which would prevent moving past the nozzle probed location@@MadeWithLayers they seriously need to get their configs straight before sending out printers like this, they also need to configure the klipperscreen correctly, as it would have allowed to swap the direction buttons, on my trident i swapped them so that the down button moves the bed down and the up button moves it up
This is the kind of machine that needs to be reviewed by a man like you! Very interesting review. Thorough as always! I think this (linear stepper motors) will set the new standard for 3D printers in the future. Very surprised to see the very promising long melt chamber. This machine is a very good answer to and even a step forward from the Bambu machines IMO. Just needs a little ironing still... But very well done by Peopoly .. again proving that they still are innovators! One question remains though: Are you sure that the coil shouldn't be placed between the bed and the Z-corner support instead of underneath. Then a crash like the one you had would not result in damage so easily.
Thanks! The bed springs are intended to be installed as I showed, as using them in an Ender-style arrangement would make for a quite wobbly and shaky bed assembly, I think. wiki.peopoly.net/en/magneto/magneto-x/setup-guide
I really hope linear motors start being more accessible. I could totally imagine a future where we just forget about belts completely. Id absolutely take all of the tradeoffs to get that no worry consistent accuracy and low maintenance.
@@Domophilliuswell sort of, except it doesn't have stepper motors and these will probably get way less hot, and no belts to slip it still is better than a bedslinger
Peopoly did say that they designed these ones from the ground up and were open to releasing them as their own thing. If they did, I'd be so up for upgrading my ratrig with these.
@@Domophillius Sure but its never about the name but the function. This isnt offset on the x axis because the y motor is pretty much spread across all of the x axis, and obviously the y axis is stationary. Combine that with closed loop control, a wider area to spread and dissipate heat and strength and It sounds like many plusses to me.
@@BeefIngot exactly the point i said to someone else on another channel especially since the mags wont get anywhere as hot i'm sure it'll be more efficient either way and maintain more "torque" or pulling/stall force rather the hotter the neo mags get the less force that remains and the more current you need
@@ahaveland No! In a perfect world, profanities would not exist, and we’d speak the same language. But humans are strange in a way that we usually default to our mother tongue for expletives.
@@m_IDEX I speak 4 languages, two natively. I can't imagine a worse world than having one language and no profanities, and being able to swear in many more than 4 languages is a great stress relief, but each to their own. Diversity has riches beyond compare.
Glad that it sounds like the majority of the issues are things that can be improved on in a software update rather than a fundamental issue with hardware. Definitely would be good to have some insulation updates, I'll add that to the to do list for when mine arrives.
@@patching- Yep! Most of the complaints about the print quality are just down to basic end-user calibration. Factory calibration is a good starting point but it should always be completed by the end-user after the printer has shipped to them, using their own filament. No printer is going to remain unchanged after shipping and assembly, nor is any printer or filament going to be absolutely identical to the factory ideal. Even the local temperature and humidity and going to change your results. That's something I'd like to see in a long-term review though, this printer looks very promising as it is.
Four linear rails... mounted straight to what appear to be anodized aluminum extrusions that are part of an assembly. Those guide blocks undoubtedly have a ton of clearance to make them work without binding. The 3d printing community still hasn't figured out how to use linear rails. A 15 ton vertical machining center can sling around a multi-ton chunk of cast iron on two rails with a single ballscrew. The important part is rigid mounting of the rails to flat and parallel surfaces, which permits using guide blocks with preload (or at least zero clearance). If you print out some calibration parts on this and stick them on a CMM, or even do a cursory inspection of them with manual metrology tools, I bet you'd be shocked at how imprecise it really is.
Thank you so very much for showing the issue with ability to jam the bed into the print nozzle. So many people expect these machines to be plug and play without the chance of damaging the print, machine or themselves. We need more education in this hobby that we are operators of a power tool and WE are responsible for the movements of that tool. Yes, the manufacturer should install safety mechanisms, but we also need to learn the limitations of the printer and understand how to keep calm when it starts operating outside of expected parameters. You stayed calm and solved the problem without further damage. Thank you for sharing that experience. Great video and very informative. On machines that I operated that had linear rails, they were really good at very fast movement over long distances and short stopping distances meaning minimal overshoot, but those machines were never for small detailed movement. It was designed more for that speed than accuracy. I wonder if this is the best technology for 3D printing accuracy as you showed. I would love a followup video if you ever manage to clean up the quality. I would be interesting to see if its possible and the steps you took to get there.
I had been pondering on building a printer with linear motors for about a month before I saw the Magneto. Glad to see someone did it! They are used often in circuit card manufacturing and watching how fast and accurate the are is pretty inspiring.
For inkjet printers, it's about saving cost by using dirt-cheap, barely powerful enough brushed motors (that have no positional awareness otherwise). Here, the linear BLDC motor would actually be able to position itself without extra help, but would have immensely coarse resolution. So while the resulting closed-loop system and its error-correcting abilities are a nice side-effect, the encoder really is an integral part to make this system work in the first place.
@@MadeWithLayers This is exactly the reason I am excited. I wonder why 3d printer designers focus on steppers or rotary servos. The cheaper system in Inkjet printers is not affected from belt stretch, motor in-linearity etc. all this is compensated for by the control algorithm while also improving speed, precision and fidelity. TBH I wanted to make a POC printer with linear encoders for some time now. Usually these are simple optical encoders. These look like capacitive or magnetic encoders, interesting.
@@flipschwipp6572Inkjet printers just move the head at a constant speed, which is easy with a DC motor and linear encoder to count movements. A 3D printer needs to be able to accelerate and decelerate and control position to within sub-milimeters, something that would be near impossible without some sort of 'step' drive.
@@frankhovis DC or BLDC servo drives are perfectly fit for positioning and acceleration. They motor may need to be little bigger than in a usual inkjet to satisfy acceleration needs but thats it.
@@MadeWithLayersInkjet printers require a magnitude or two better resolution than a 3D printer, most of them are faster too. However, the task is easier as they have to do just constant speed and fixed trajectory movements. Besides that, if you were to closed-loop control a stepper, you might as well leave out the steps and just use a BLDC servo which is essentially almost the same control model just the number of phases are different.
i think that some of quality issues might be caused by some sort of hotend damage that happened when you ran it into the plate, i saw similar issues when my nozzle was damaged (tried cleaning leftover filament with snippers and cut some of metal) and got uneven
To be honest this whole part after the bed hit is so unprofessional on his side that is hard to watch. Clearly the hotend got bend and he still continues to print with it. Whole print is already compromised and the fact that he is still talking about the print quality after that is honestly so unprofessional. He should actually stop after the incident, replace the hotend and make sure that the frame is not compromised in any way before continuing the review.
That does look like a very nice system to move the print head. It sure gives a prototype feel in many ways, I can imagine this getting a lot lighter in the future.
I have Yamaha pick and place machine at work and because of this video i have finally realized how Y axis works for two heads on same axis. I did try to find belts or something else and didnt paying any attention to magnets inside linear axis
Ohhh! I see. Now linear motors make more sense (with two moving heads on the same linear rail). I was struggling to find any positives to this drive system.
As a preorderer, I wish field testers would give dates of testing and what revisions of hardware and software they’re testing. Testing results seem inconsistent, and it’s tough to know if the reviewer’s process, the hardware and software itself, delays in testing or video production or something else is bringing different issues to light or folks are reporting problems already addressed. Good preview nonetheless, however.
it seems like an impressive gamma prototype. Lots of little refinements that need to be dialed in to make it user friendly and safe. The linear motors seem great, although they seem a bit massive (and heavy) for the small forces they need to generate. It is great to see some real innovation happening in the 3d space.
That's a very very coarse linear motor. And I think the patterns you see are a direct result of that. This could be in theory compensated thru a calibrated motor profile, but the closed loop controllers need to be able to do that. That would mean they need a lookup table for the entire travel length, those controllers don't look like they would have enough RAM for that.
Next thing is, that they get feed from a stepper interface which is suboptimal for CL servos. Next position and an acceleration curve would be much much better. Klipper should be able to give that.
Good video Thomas - Thank You. But then the "How can this be improved" part of my brain stood up and started shouting at me. Put the magnets in the linear rail truck and a whole series of coils into the rail and then a lot of wire movement will be saved. This sort of propulsion system should work very well in the 3D PRINTER market but when it comes to driving a 12mm cutter through a piece of steel then it probably will not have the sheer power to be able to take big cuts at higher speeds to do it. For the most part, belt linear drives simply get overwhelmed which is why screws are the go-to for high energy machines. BUT for low energy linear movement applications like 3D printing and laser machines I can see this style of machine motion going far. And the G0 type commands should be able to really shoot the truck to the end point at a very rapid rate. Seeing where and how this technology goes in the next few years should be interesting.
I want to try one with coils in the rails too, with crossed rail gantry so there are no moving motor wires at all. It would get wasteful with energy at large size since you're magnetizing a lot of rail area that isn't doing anything, but it would be super fast moving around permanent magnets rather than the motor stator with its wires and drag chain. The only part I don't know how to do is the linear encoders.
I'm so happy that YOU are the one presenting this. Thanks, Tom! I've been wondering about this since the announcement! Hope you're well and can't wait for what's next!
The release of this video will spur Peopoly to do further touch-ups and polishing to the full release machines. A cover for the terminal connections on the back of the primary power input cord socket will be implemented quickly I'm sure as well as upgraded spacers on the x-axis motors and etc. Finding these things is the reason for sending out test models for beta testing.
I like it, mostly because it seems like what I call honest product; it appears that effort was put into making a product that is technically really good and only unimportant corners were cut.
re: the step size vs magnet size - it uses the ratio of the values in different places to accurately locate exactly where it is - 2 sensors separated by half a magnet size would give sin/cos output, so you can easily tell what fraction of a magnet step sideways you are, and you can use more than 2 measurement points to cover for variation on magnet strength
Not sure if it's something weird on my side, but the best quality I can watch this in is 360p, which is definitely not what I expect from Made with Layers :) Am I just too early (video uploaded 4 minutes ago). *EDIT* All good now, lovely 4k
That's a quite impressive machine ! Sure, there are (always) things to improve, more tuning to get predictable and reliable print quality, yet it's awesome to finally see something new and interesting ! Looking at the next iterations of this product line will be extremely instructive.
Technically Essentium HSE series offered linear motor 3D printers for the industrial market for a long while, but it's lovely to see the technology trickle down to a more affordable machine.
That chunky build is something I can get behind, same with the lower mechanical complexity due to the linear motors. Especially for models with this kind of print volume this seems like a must-have in the foreseeable future.
I always wanted to have linear encoder on 3d printer. I think they allow for precise printing in the long term. If they can be calibrated properly, bents, bumps or shakes will have a lot less impact than on other printer. And they allow to use linear motors that have others adventages. I can't wait to see perfectionment of this technology, so we can have truly reliable 3D printer for everyone.
Reminds me of some of some of the semiconductor equipment EFEMs ive seen with far more complex handler x-axis drives. Its insane the speed and acceleration achieved.
There is a good chance that you kinked the heatbreak with the crash and adding extra resistance to the filament path. That messes with the extrusion quality. I have had this problem myself
Awesome to see PID feedback in consumer 3D printers more and more, this linear setup is pretty sweet! Even the price isn't that bad. I really wish stepper motors hadn't stuck around nearly as long as they have, yeah they work... But imagine how many headaches everyone would have avoided if they just simply had some kind of feedback instead of just counting steps.
Looks like the kind of tech that would be good on high end (no expense spared) pro systems because of all the support tech needed to make it reliable and safe and produce high quality prints, but may take a long time to become practically useful on 'hobby'-cost level printers. Your honest video demonstrates that nicely. Thanks.
The funky pattern on the outside is definitely due to the linearity of the motors. The issue with linear motors is that the accuracy is dependant upon the calibration of the feedback loop *and* magnetic field. And yes, they can be calibrated. But because each axis relies on a big stack of magnets, the magnetic field pattern won't be totally uniform all across the range of motion. You can actually see the position of the magnets is super uneven when you peel back the cover strip. This means that to achieve good linearity across the entire range of motion, you have to calibrate it across the entire range of motion. This is an insane amount of data, and probably not something they have done. Or possibly they have done this at a coarse resolution, interpolating between points. Leading to this slight loss of linearity. Also, I can't really tell what the feedback mechanism is on this printer. It should be a high accuracy optical encoder, but I fear that it's a magnetic strip tape encoder on the bottom of each axis rail. At least that's what it looks like from the images I have seen. So not only is that subject to magnetic interference, the linearity is lower to begin with.
An impressive first impression of an absolutely unique new 3d printer. I hope the project progresses properly and the price is kept within limits. The videos published of this device look very promising so far.
It is great to see this technology working in consumer 3d printing! Hopefully this is the start of of this becoming mainstream! 👍 Also, I love the straight to the point review.
You were talking about how much mass the print head has in it.... my dad used to inform his buying decisions on consumer electronics by "how much gravity" an item had in it. As I have gotten older, I find that bellwether pretty accurate.
This is a really cool printer! I'd love to see a video where you make this printer safer (the easily exposed leads on the bottom, something to better protect the bottom of the bed). Just found your channel a couple days ago and I LOVE your content. Very informative
Reminds me of the pick&place machines at work, same linear motors, they are way bigger than this printer but are quiter than a regular stepper motor, essentialy all you hear is the bushing/bearing sliding.
well done sir! Looking forward to a follow up when Peopoly gets through doing some software/firmware updates and you've had some time with this baby. Really looking to see how the closed loop system adds value to the printing process!
I'm all for it, less motors and belts is a good idea. Looks amazing for a gen 1. This will become the new standard for design companies will try to replicate.
How in the hell did you know about the gantry fix. I've been around 3d printing for about as long as the 1st Dremel 3d printer has been out and I didn't ever see that. Thank you for giving me insight to that issue.
on the wifi issuie you saw, if it's using an ESP32 for wifi (which it seemed to be doing) it might only be able to connect to 2.4ghz wifi. I know my mesh network forces wifi to 5ghz... /shrug
Congratulations on your excellent in-depth unbiased review of the Magneto X 3d printer. I commend you for pointing out the electrical standard failings, issues whilst unboxing the printer, software issues (including crash) and oversight in the build instructions, as well as pointing out its better qualities. The magnetic drive is an unusual unique feature, is it on both the X and Y axis? From an Engineering point of view I find the magnetic drive and two heater elements in the nozzle intriguing, however as an end user I find the concept of printing in five materials without swopping out materials a better attraction. Strange that this printer is only available in 240v configuration when the price is in US dollars, clearly targeting the US market and ignoring the European market where 240v is more common. Although it’s sold out according to their website, it’s offered at a pre-order price of $1,999. Not sure beyond the magnetic drive and the expensive looking nozzle you’re getting for the cost? I have just found your review so signed up to your TH-cam channel, looking forward to watching some of your other videos. Hope you have one on multi nozzle printers?
Hi @MadeWithLayers, Great video! It was fun to feel like we were discovering the nuances of the printer with you. I got curious and downloaded Orcaslicer 2.0-dev to slice parts for a Magneto X. In the process I noticed that Pressure Advance is not activated by default. So I would imagine the print issues that looked like poor pressure advance tuning was actually pressure advance not on. I'd like to see how different your print turns out with pressure advance on.
This is s very clean design, i love what theyre trying to do and honestly it solves a few mechanical shortcomings of the current sort of printer. They may need to use a higher preload slider set, and the tuning should help with rhe waver as well.
Very interesting. I'd love to see you do an update for when the final product is released and see if the bugs get ironed out. I'd love to eliminate the belts on my system I built from scratch, so maybe I'll do some research.
As for you comment on the coarseness of the magnet track. With Linear motors like these you can go pretty coarse and still achieve very good accuracy. By my guess (depending on the driver) this should be able to do some 50 - 10 micron accuracy. Though indeed I would highly recommend that they find a way to cut down on the control loops running on top of each other, it will hurt ultimate performance. This is very expensive so I do understand why they did it this way for first gen
I hope you are proving feedback to Peoply, the motor shim and they need to stop the Z when the load sensor is triggered - should not have been the print end.
In first look, electronics is a little bit overengineered, but is works and looks ducking great. Linear motors are simple and great - I know then from SMT-machines. Thanks, Tom!
Maybe it's because I have a toddler running around now, but those 230V wiring had me sweating... Even distributing demo devices within the EU already requires CE compliance. There is an exception for importing products in development to contractors and employees and since you fixed that motor design it might even apply here :D
I think that oscillations is going to need no a little bit but a LOT of tuning. You have there a magnets don't have any kind of dampening like a belt does, and also the closed loop is going to introduce some vibrations and etc etc etc.
I cant get over the fact the magnets are just hanging out there, unrestrained, surely this will mean the field is changing with vibration, so that any tuning will only be temporary? Maybe im overthinking that, but i would have thought setting them into something, or potting them in some kind of high temp silicone would be preferred?
@@jeremyglover5541 No, the magnets are not hanging freely, those are in the head and in the raio, like a train. Are kind of exposed? Yes, but not hanging free
I was experimenting with using a brushless DC motor on the extruder itself (a small drone motor with worm drive). It was fundamentally pretty similar to this - a standard control board feeding step/direction inputs to a BLDC driver. (just different axes, and with the magnets in a circle instead of all in a line). I ended up giving up on that project because the closed loop control wasn't fast enough, resulting in the extrusion motor slightly lagging behind where it should have been. I think it was mostly a limitation of the firmware in the ODrive I was using, I wonder what the high frequency movement accuracy of this system looks like In a bldc system like this it's actually fairly easy to measure that with a logic analyser, you can compare the sequence of steps coming from the printer controller to the encoder positions returned from the linear motors.
I've been watching this machine for quite the while but missed the preorder window. While I'm hip-deep in refurbing my giant delta, videos of the magneto X keep popping up reminding me what I'm missing out on. Sigh, such is life! I still like everything about the idea as it combines the best of the best with some novel operating components. I'm sure it's worth the rather modest asking price, but there is that moment of sticker shock up front. And... they're sold out for the next several months. My only real foible with it is the lack of an included enclosure for that price. I'm aware they're available as an extra, just wish it came factory to make it truly entry-level industrial 'out of the box'.
All commercial extrudes have progressive heating bands and I suggested to Festo to use their linear motors on 3D printers 6+ years ago to improve printer resolution. These features are way over due !
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I worked at a company back in the early 90's that had a pen plotter that used this tech, and the plotter was from the late 60's to early 70's era. It was about the size of a twin-size bed, and about 5 feet tall - but was outrageously fast.
What in gods name would you need a pen plotter like that for?
@@BeefIngot Signs and CAD drawings, usually.
@@BeefIngot High speed plotting of maps. I worked for a digital cartography company back then. We were easily pumping out 30-50 plots a day and even then, that was "slow" time for the company. That, and you could slow it down for use with actual wet ink and vellum plots, very large sizes almost 5'x7' - but with super precision. Multi-color (it had four pen slots.)
If you'd like to see what it looked like, look up the Xynetics 1000. The plotting head was magnetized to the underside of the top, and needed a little 1/3hp air compressor to push it down enough to where it could move freely. Where the paper was, it needed a giant blower motor to suck the paper flat on the bed and keep it in place.
What really broke my heart was when we moved offices, the new place didn't have facilities to bring it to (we moved to a 2nd story of an office building instead of a warehouse type place) and we had to get a roll plotter to replace it. We literally dismantled it and sold it for scrap. I think the boss said it was $100k+ when they bought it in the early 1970's.
@@BeefIngot Large plans, there are plans for urban development that fill the floor of a large room.
I would assume you're referring to xynetics--i was field service on those in the day (80’s)--in addition to flat bed plotters, there was a version called “wirematic” that made aircraft wiring harnesses…everything old is new aga…
What’s interesting about this platform is it should be relatively easy to add additional tool heads to make an IDEX even beyond. No additional belts are needed, just extra drivers and a longer x rail to provide parking space for unused tools.
Tons of extra moving mass though. If anything Id say this was more ideal for a tool changer where there would be less wores to worry about routing.
@@BeefIngot yeah , it sounds great as a toolchanger
@@BeefIngot it would add less mass than a conventional IDEX, which needs to move the mass of an additional (full size) stepper in y.
In any case, if you print multiple parts (in parallel or mirror mode) a lot, a slower-moving IDEX will be much faster than a faster accelerating tool changer. So it's not really one or the other. Both have their place.
@@JonS I count the ol double corexy as also being conventional.
As for dual printing, I guess, but how often do people actually do that.
@@BeefIngot not everyone is looking for the same printer. IDEX is very useful for print farms, for example. I have an IDEX printer. I don't use it for everything, but when I need multiple copies of the same thing it's amazing, even though it has a much slower motion system than my fast printers. For dual-material prints, it's also very reliable in a way that tool changers have yet to prove they can achieve.
There is a market for IDEX, companies like BCN3D, Raise3D, Craftbot, and at the lower-end Flashforge and Snapmaker, produce IDEX printers because there is a demand for them.
I'm loving the "let's assemble and discover this printer together" vibe with this video. Super cool tech!
Awesome! Thank you!
Despite all the quirks - this is the first printer in at least 5 years I would be exited to own. The sturdiness, the platform, the mechanism are an awesome starting point of something
that will last for a very long time.
I'm no pro, but this also has me interested. If my wife wouldn't kill me for spending that much, I'd be in.
Exactly! I am tired of sketchy-mechanics nothing-new kind of commercial products we have seen in the past 5ish years.
Now, this IS THE innovation!
Almost perfect. No excuse for the lack of Z endstops and of the lack of mains insulation. For the bed part, I think that at this level, the bed *thermal* insulation should be standard as well.
One little nitpick with the mechanics is that the axial bearings should ideally hold the Z axis screws directly, not through the flexible coupling. However, I see that they used an almost rigid coupling, and the bed system is almost a static load, so I can forgive them for that.
Overall, as someone who sees the innovation and the improvement opportunities and also likes to fabricate things: I'd buy it!
Tom casually fixing a motor design issue, no big deal.
I hope he invoiced them for engineering design support.
And few minutes after he mentions they did not wanted him to do anything crazy before it started printing - I had immediate flashback to that drill scene :D
Definitely not the sort of thing the average user should be expected to do, so it's nice to have them get it out to technically minded people who are capable of helping them identify and solve these issues for them prior to real production.
Tom is great. We tested print for a few days before shipping. We believe the issue was caused by too tight of tolerance on the ring and impact during shipping that locked it up. Thankfully, Tom was able to fix it. We will address this in the production going forward.
legend
"Peopoly were very keen on me not trying any weirdness" *starts drilling holes into the stepper motor assembly* x)
Hats off to Peopoly for creating this awesome first of its kind printer. Agreed it needs some tuning and some adjustments for the safety concerns but yea, I can see this being a serious contender for best of the best 3D printers! A lot here for Peopoly to be proud of and cant wait to see this on the open market! Even the price while expensive is really not when you consider what went into building it! It for sure in its current state would not pass US safety laws and it really needs a crash mitigation for that hot end. I really cringed when I saw how hard that hit the build plate.
its going to give rat rig v core 4 a run for the money in the states i'd guess. the 400mm^3 is the same $ from what i've seen
Looks like TH-cam is having a lazy day with processing this one up to 4k60... Guess it'll get there eventually!
Just to clarify, I was assured the printer we're looking at in this video is identical to the production units - but as with anything, there will certainly still be changes to it down the road, whether those be for cost-saving or for improving certain aspects of the machine.
The software (both the printer's firmware and the slicer) are still obviously a bit rough around the edges, but are much easier to update than hardware - with so few machines in the wild right now, I'm not considering this too much of an issue yet, but I do hope that the printer's tuning will improve over time or with community involvement.
Let me know what comparisons, benchmarks or experiments you'd like me to do with the Magneto!
I know some further software updates are coming, should be a new round for the testers to validate this week. Hardware seems pretty solid at this point, it's mostly as you said the software. Luckily, it's klipper, so 98% of that is just dropping in a new config file!
Peopoly printer is very promising ❤
TH-cam is being extra lazy, it's still only showing 360p for me.
I really want to know how accurate the closed loop absolute encoder system is, or if it even is absolute. Like, does it not need to home?
This is bad. I thought this was a pre production unit. I mean, the safety, the bended nozzle. Those are huge problems and you said it yourself, this can't be sold to EU. I expected more from them. As a tech demo it is good but I'm not buying a tech demo.
8:27 "it knows where it is, because it knows where it isn't"
Definitely impressive!
Could you see if the print bed frame was connected to earth?
Thought the same thing 😂
By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the motor from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
Surprisingly accurate description of how the closed-loop system works 👍
On the topic of grounding, the entire frame, bed and moving axes are meticulously grounded, so there should be absolutely no risk of the frame itself ever becoming live.
@@MadeWithLayers 😅👍
Since you know "a thing or two" about 3d printers, maybe you should switch into development.
Using linear motors for x and y is somehow obvious, still no one has done it. I bet you also have some ideas on what can be improved in persue of the optimal/best fdm printer there can be.
@@MadeWithLayers But Clipper does still don't know where the printhead is.
Time to fusion Marlin/Clipper/GRBL with it's source from EMC2/LinuxCNC and go realy full closed loop positioning system including the trajectory control system.
This would be the real way to eliminate the ringing artefacts
*This whole section seems to have been copied almost word-for-word from an ancient training film about MISSILE GUIDANCE, which I have seen years ago, here on TH-cam:*
_The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the motor from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't._
@@MadeWithLayers
This is something that has finally trickled its way down from Comercial CNC machines. No more belt noise at high speed. I loove this machine and it is on my Must have list!
its sure promising, but at this stage you and anyone else buying one, would be buying it out of an irrational lust for technological advancement and where they believe the quality will be/get to, not for any practical outcome, as any prints ive seen are pretty terrible, like really terrible. Not the benchie, obviously that was pretty good in some areas, so heres hoping its just tuning required.
What CNC machines? I didn’t know this was actually being used already
@@Industry-insider expensive ones. linear motors have been around for years. Anyone presenting this as a peopoly invention is misinformed. All they have done is manufacture them at a scaled back power and a cost the 3d printer market will bare.
Honestly though, ill take ballscrews on axis before this anyday.
@@jeremyglover5541 let me introduce you to ASML lithography machines, this has been around for years
I actually got one of the pre-sale units ordered, and that enabled me to get updates when they made changes or if something happened like the delays. The reason I point this out is they seem extremely in tune with their customers and the sample units they sent out (like the one shown here) have been improved multiple times since they were built and shipped out to get some feedback from makers/content creators that deal with lots and lots of 3D printers and other hardware, after all - you guys will be tearing them apart and really finding out what is fantastic, what is good but needs improved, and what is so bad it would prevent sales, as well as have the knowledge on how one might go about fixing the issues.
As of lately we got another 'month delay' so I won't be getting mine anytime soon, but it's nice the videos can start coming out to discuss.
This is a good approach, though 100% I think they should have safety features in from the outset regardless
Do you know if any of the problems he showed in this video have been ironed out I got a grant to get one for my business but after this video, I’m worried About the quality, a bunch of artifacting the bed ramming itself into the head, exposed mains voltage
Thank you for your support. We will add an insulation solution to all printers. An update blog is coming this week.
I much prefer having a printer that is a little delayed than one that is totally unfinished. IMO, the Magnto hardware is in a good spot, and software is easily upgradable even once the units are already out in the wild.
Sounds like what Microsoft did with Windows 7 release where they had the customer figure out what did not work!!
This is the most ballsy printer design that we have seen in a while.
Essentium has been making these linear motor printers for years. They are for industrial use. Still the technology has been proven by essentium.
that is a serious oversight of them, klipper does not allow moving the bed without knowing home first, unlesss you manually enter a Unsafe move macro
so either it was a you issue, or they did something that messed this up, and allows unsafe moves...
usually the nozzle probe would be used as a Z endstop, and you can only move the bed once the nozzle has verified Z max or min
Moving is indeed only allowed once the printer is homed, but it currently does not prevent you from moving to unsafe coordinates. What happened is that the printer was freshly homed, and instead of clicking "Z +25mm", I clicked "Z -25mm" as my exhausted brain thought I needed to move the bed "down", and the printer obliged. Only that this moved the nozzle further into the bed...
Typically this is prevented with software endstops, but it seems like that feature is not currently enabled, and the loadcell as a Z endstop is likely also disabled outside of the actual homing and probing cycles to prevent false triggers e.g. during filament retracts.
@@MadeWithLayersit needs a failsafe to prevent nozzle/bed damage
The load cell is there, so this is a coding issue, not a need for extra parts
Ideally I'd like to see a position encoder on the vertical axis. Relying on the leadscrews is ok but not as good as actually measuring and linear encoders are fairly cheap
then it sounds like they did indeed misconfigure the printer in klipper, as in klipper you can set the endstop position, and the max z that is allowed to move, incase of a nozzle probe it should both be the same, which would prevent moving past the nozzle probed location@@MadeWithLayers
they seriously need to get their configs straight before sending out printers like this, they also need to configure the klipperscreen correctly, as it would have allowed to swap the direction buttons, on my trident i swapped them so that the down button moves the bed down and the up button moves it up
Best line in the video: “Sort of squeaking like a very quiet duck” 😂
Yes but ducks don't squeak, they quack.
That probably explains the feather that you found inside the case 😅
@@TheWeepingCorpsedepends on how you squeeze them...
You'd be surprised to learn how well-articulated the average duck is 😉
I have heard ducks quack, and I have heard them hiss, I have never heard one squeak though….
I'm very impressed with the robust tool head. A crash like that would have killed many other heads.
Great video. Keep up the good work.
That doesn't mean this one is not killed. :D
It still printed after the crash though.@@crnalajna
This is the kind of machine that needs to be reviewed by a man like you! Very interesting review. Thorough as always! I think this (linear stepper motors) will set the new standard for 3D printers in the future. Very surprised to see the very promising long melt chamber. This machine is a very good answer to and even a step forward from the Bambu machines IMO. Just needs a little ironing still... But very well done by Peopoly .. again proving that they still are innovators!
One question remains though: Are you sure that the coil shouldn't be placed between the bed and the Z-corner support instead of underneath. Then a crash like the one you had would not result in damage so easily.
Thanks! The bed springs are intended to be installed as I showed, as using them in an Ender-style arrangement would make for a quite wobbly and shaky bed assembly, I think.
wiki.peopoly.net/en/magneto/magneto-x/setup-guide
I really hope linear motors start being more accessible. I could totally imagine a future where we just forget about belts completely. Id absolutely take all of the tradeoffs to get that no worry consistent accuracy and low maintenance.
Wouldn't that mean that we wouldn't have CoreXY and back to Cartesian?
@@Domophilliuswell sort of, except it doesn't have stepper motors and these will probably get way less hot, and no belts to slip
it still is better than a bedslinger
Peopoly did say that they designed these ones from the ground up and were open to releasing them as their own thing. If they did, I'd be so up for upgrading my ratrig with these.
@@Domophillius Sure but its never about the name but the function. This isnt offset on the x axis because the y motor is pretty much spread across all of the x axis, and obviously the y axis is stationary. Combine that with closed loop control, a wider area to spread and dissipate heat and strength and It sounds like many plusses to me.
@@BeefIngot exactly the point i said to someone else on another channel
especially since the mags wont get anywhere as hot i'm sure it'll be more efficient either way and maintain more "torque" or pulling/stall force rather
the hotter the neo mags get the less force that remains and the more current you need
Linear motors are so cool! But, during the nozzle crash, I did not expect that word in English 😃
Well, shit happens 🤷♂️
In that situation, any and all profanities in every language would be perfectly justifiable!
@@ahaveland No! In a perfect world, profanities would not exist, and we’d speak the same language. But humans are strange in a way that we usually default to our mother tongue for expletives.
@@m_IDEX I speak 4 languages, two natively. I can't imagine a worse world than having one language and no profanities, and being able to swear in many more than 4 languages is a great stress relief, but each to their own.
Diversity has riches beyond compare.
I'm surprised the z max in the klipper config was not set up properly
Glad that it sounds like the majority of the issues are things that can be improved on in a software update rather than a fundamental issue with hardware. Definitely would be good to have some insulation updates, I'll add that to the to do list for when mine arrives.
its klipper you don't need an update just to tune it
@@patching- Yep! Most of the complaints about the print quality are just down to basic end-user calibration. Factory calibration is a good starting point but it should always be completed by the end-user after the printer has shipped to them, using their own filament. No printer is going to remain unchanged after shipping and assembly, nor is any printer or filament going to be absolutely identical to the factory ideal. Even the local temperature and humidity and going to change your results.
That's something I'd like to see in a long-term review though, this printer looks very promising as it is.
Four linear rails... mounted straight to what appear to be anodized aluminum extrusions that are part of an assembly. Those guide blocks undoubtedly have a ton of clearance to make them work without binding. The 3d printing community still hasn't figured out how to use linear rails. A 15 ton vertical machining center can sling around a multi-ton chunk of cast iron on two rails with a single ballscrew. The important part is rigid mounting of the rails to flat and parallel surfaces, which permits using guide blocks with preload (or at least zero clearance). If you print out some calibration parts on this and stick them on a CMM, or even do a cursory inspection of them with manual metrology tools, I bet you'd be shocked at how imprecise it really is.
That hotend reminds me something 😊 hehe I love the linear motors here. Very nicely built printer
Hey Si... hmm Vez, long time no see, sorry did not log in with the @toma.3d or @toma.cnc1 for quite some time.
I was thinking the same thing. Although, under the sock, the ceramic heaters are quite different from Goliath.
Yeah, I had the same thought when I saw that
A long rapido? Yeah. Nothing like a goliath 🤔
@xsolar a mixt of both maybe :) anyhow, if it was inspired by goliath that is flattering :)
Thank you so very much for showing the issue with ability to jam the bed into the print nozzle. So many people expect these machines to be plug and play without the chance of damaging the print, machine or themselves. We need more education in this hobby that we are operators of a power tool and WE are responsible for the movements of that tool. Yes, the manufacturer should install safety mechanisms, but we also need to learn the limitations of the printer and understand how to keep calm when it starts operating outside of expected parameters. You stayed calm and solved the problem without further damage. Thank you for sharing that experience.
Great video and very informative. On machines that I operated that had linear rails, they were really good at very fast movement over long distances and short stopping distances meaning minimal overshoot, but those machines were never for small detailed movement. It was designed more for that speed than accuracy. I wonder if this is the best technology for 3D printing accuracy as you showed. I would love a followup video if you ever manage to clean up the quality. I would be interesting to see if its possible and the steps you took to get there.
Next time when talking about noise and sounds - let us just hear them.
I had been pondering on building a printer with linear motors for about a month before I saw the Magneto. Glad to see someone did it! They are used often in circuit card manufacturing and watching how fast and accurate the are is pretty inspiring.
Closed loop linear encoder control is used in every inkjet printer. Happy to see one in a 3d printer.
For inkjet printers, it's about saving cost by using dirt-cheap, barely powerful enough brushed motors (that have no positional awareness otherwise). Here, the linear BLDC motor would actually be able to position itself without extra help, but would have immensely coarse resolution. So while the resulting closed-loop system and its error-correcting abilities are a nice side-effect, the encoder really is an integral part to make this system work in the first place.
@@MadeWithLayers This is exactly the reason I am excited. I wonder why 3d printer designers focus on steppers or rotary servos. The cheaper system in Inkjet printers is not affected from belt stretch, motor in-linearity etc. all this is compensated for by the control algorithm while also improving speed, precision and fidelity. TBH I wanted to make a POC printer with linear encoders for some time now. Usually these are simple optical encoders. These look like capacitive or magnetic encoders, interesting.
@@flipschwipp6572Inkjet printers just move the head at a constant speed, which is easy with a DC motor and linear encoder to count movements. A 3D printer needs to be able to accelerate and decelerate and control position to within sub-milimeters, something that would be near impossible without some sort of 'step' drive.
@@frankhovis DC or BLDC servo drives are perfectly fit for positioning and acceleration. They motor may need to be little bigger than in a usual inkjet to satisfy acceleration needs but thats it.
@@MadeWithLayersInkjet printers require a magnitude or two better resolution than a 3D printer, most of them are faster too. However, the task is easier as they have to do just constant speed and fixed trajectory movements.
Besides that, if you were to closed-loop control a stepper, you might as well leave out the steps and just use a BLDC servo which is essentially almost the same control model just the number of phases are different.
i think that some of quality issues might be caused by some sort of hotend damage that happened when you ran it into the plate, i saw similar issues when my nozzle was damaged (tried cleaning leftover filament with snippers and cut some of metal) and got uneven
To be honest this whole part after the bed hit is so unprofessional on his side that is hard to watch. Clearly the hotend got bend and he still continues to print with it. Whole print is already compromised and the fact that he is still talking about the print quality after that is honestly so unprofessional. He should actually stop after the incident, replace the hotend and make sure that the frame is not compromised in any way before continuing the review.
looks really cool i hope the linear motor tech can eventually make its way down to other types of machines too like hobby CNCs and laser cutters.
Thank you for overdubing the mistake rather than just putting some text on screen!
That stepper shim modification you did impressed the hell out of me. Great job!
360p gang! This looks really exciting, will be great to watch it evolve more
It's still 360p 5 minutes later xD
yeah, maybe tomorrow
haha glad its not just me
Lol, chill people. Tom has some of the cleanest looking videos on YT. The resolution issue is on YT, and it'll be full resolution soon.
Locked at 720p
I absolutely loved seeing you be surprised at what you were seeing and discovering the machine live. It was refreshing.
That does look like a very nice system to move the print head. It sure gives a prototype feel in many ways, I can imagine this getting a lot lighter in the future.
I have Yamaha pick and place machine at work and because of this video i have finally realized how Y axis works for two heads on same axis. I did try to find belts or something else and didnt paying any attention to magnets inside linear axis
Ohhh! I see. Now linear motors make more sense (with two moving heads on the same linear rail). I was struggling to find any positives to this drive system.
As a preorderer, I wish field testers would give dates of testing and what revisions of hardware and software they’re testing. Testing results seem inconsistent, and it’s tough to know if the reviewer’s process, the hardware and software itself, delays in testing or video production or something else is bringing different issues to light or folks are reporting problems already addressed. Good preview nonetheless, however.
it seems like an impressive gamma prototype. Lots of little refinements that need to be dialed in to make it user friendly and safe. The linear motors seem great, although they seem a bit massive (and heavy) for the small forces they need to generate. It is great to see some real innovation happening in the 3d space.
That's a very very coarse linear motor.
And I think the patterns you see are a direct result of that.
This could be in theory compensated thru a calibrated motor profile, but the closed loop controllers need to be able to do that.
That would mean they need a lookup table for the entire travel length, those controllers don't look like they would have enough RAM for that.
Next thing is, that they get feed from a stepper interface which is suboptimal for CL servos.
Next position and an acceleration curve would be much much better.
Klipper should be able to give that.
Thanks for sharing! I have preordered this printer and can confirm that Peopoly has addressed the electrical issues that you showed here.
This is literally THE PRINTER I wanted and gave up on finding, when I first got into 3D printing. This could get me back into FDM!
Good video Thomas - Thank You.
But then the "How can this be improved" part of my brain stood up and started shouting at me.
Put the magnets in the linear rail truck and a whole series of coils into the rail and then a lot of wire movement will be saved.
This sort of propulsion system should work very well in the 3D PRINTER market but when it comes to driving a 12mm cutter through a piece of steel then it probably will not have the sheer power to be able to take big cuts at higher speeds to do it.
For the most part, belt linear drives simply get overwhelmed which is why screws are the go-to for high energy machines.
BUT for low energy linear movement applications like 3D printing and laser machines I can see this style of machine motion going far.
And the G0 type commands should be able to really shoot the truck to the end point at a very rapid rate.
Seeing where and how this technology goes in the next few years should be interesting.
I want to try one with coils in the rails too, with crossed rail gantry so there are no moving motor wires at all. It would get wasteful with energy at large size since you're magnetizing a lot of rail area that isn't doing anything, but it would be super fast moving around permanent magnets rather than the motor stator with its wires and drag chain. The only part I don't know how to do is the linear encoders.
The X axis still has to move, doesn’t it? So it would just move a handful of smaller wires from head assembly to X gantry
I'm so happy that YOU are the one presenting this. Thanks, Tom! I've been wondering about this since the announcement! Hope you're well and can't wait for what's next!
The release of this video will spur Peopoly to do further touch-ups and polishing to the full release machines. A cover for the terminal connections on the back of the primary power input cord socket will be implemented quickly I'm sure as well as upgraded spacers on the x-axis motors and etc. Finding these things is the reason for sending out test models for beta testing.
I like it, mostly because it seems like what I call honest product; it appears that effort was put into making a product that is technically really good and only unimportant corners were cut.
re: the step size vs magnet size - it uses the ratio of the values in different places to accurately locate exactly where it is - 2 sensors separated by half a magnet size would give sin/cos output, so you can easily tell what fraction of a magnet step sideways you are, and you can use more than 2 measurement points to cover for variation on magnet strength
Not sure if it's something weird on my side, but the best quality I can watch this in is 360p, which is definitely not what I expect from Made with Layers :) Am I just too early (video uploaded 4 minutes ago). *EDIT* All good now, lovely 4k
It's still the same on my end almost 20 minutes later
That's a quite impressive machine ! Sure, there are (always) things to improve, more tuning to get predictable and reliable print quality, yet it's awesome to finally see something new and interesting ! Looking at the next iterations of this product line will be extremely instructive.
Technically Essentium HSE series offered linear motor 3D printers for the industrial market for a long while, but it's lovely to see the technology trickle down to a more affordable machine.
That chunky build is something I can get behind, same with the lower mechanical complexity due to the linear motors. Especially for models with this kind of print volume this seems like a must-have in the foreseeable future.
I always wanted to have linear encoder on 3d printer. I think they allow for precise printing in the long term. If they can be calibrated properly, bents, bumps or shakes will have a lot less impact than on other printer. And they allow to use linear motors that have others adventages.
I can't wait to see perfectionment of this technology, so we can have truly reliable 3D printer for everyone.
Reminds me of some of some of the semiconductor equipment EFEMs ive seen with far more complex handler x-axis drives. Its insane the speed and acceleration achieved.
There is a good chance that you kinked the heatbreak with the crash and adding extra resistance to the filament path. That messes with the extrusion quality. I have had this problem myself
Awesome to see PID feedback in consumer 3D printers more and more, this linear setup is pretty sweet! Even the price isn't that bad.
I really wish stepper motors hadn't stuck around nearly as long as they have, yeah they work... But imagine how many headaches everyone would have avoided if they just simply had some kind of feedback instead of just counting steps.
I see HUGE potential with this. There's a couple things they need to fix, but overall? It's a REALLY good start.
Looks like the kind of tech that would be good on high end (no expense spared) pro systems because of all the support tech needed to make it reliable and safe and produce high quality prints, but may take a long time to become practically useful on 'hobby'-cost level printers. Your honest video demonstrates that nicely. Thanks.
the first useful sponsor of a vid i've come across, super helpful
The funky pattern on the outside is definitely due to the linearity of the motors. The issue with linear motors is that the accuracy is dependant upon the calibration of the feedback loop *and* magnetic field. And yes, they can be calibrated. But because each axis relies on a big stack of magnets, the magnetic field pattern won't be totally uniform all across the range of motion. You can actually see the position of the magnets is super uneven when you peel back the cover strip. This means that to achieve good linearity across the entire range of motion, you have to calibrate it across the entire range of motion. This is an insane amount of data, and probably not something they have done. Or possibly they have done this at a coarse resolution, interpolating between points. Leading to this slight loss of linearity.
Also, I can't really tell what the feedback mechanism is on this printer. It should be a high accuracy optical encoder, but I fear that it's a magnetic strip tape encoder on the bottom of each axis rail. At least that's what it looks like from the images I have seen. So not only is that subject to magnetic interference, the linearity is lower to begin with.
Thank you Thomas 🤩 ... it feels like the old day TOM with new tech nerdiness. *Way to go*
An impressive first impression of an absolutely unique new 3d printer.
I hope the project progresses properly and the price is kept within limits.
The videos published of this device look very promising so far.
It is great to see this technology working in consumer 3d printing! Hopefully this is the start of of this becoming mainstream! 👍
Also, I love the straight to the point review.
Squeaking like a duck that must have been where the feather came from 🤔
You were talking about how much mass the print head has in it.... my dad used to inform his buying decisions on consumer electronics by "how much gravity" an item had in it. As I have gotten older, I find that bellwether pretty accurate.
Seen these in some CNC machines, glad someone decided to put into a printer.
This is a really cool printer! I'd love to see a video where you make this printer safer (the easily exposed leads on the bottom, something to better protect the bottom of the bed).
Just found your channel a couple days ago and I LOVE your content. Very informative
360p 😢, hope you can get it worked out, interesting that they seemingly overlooked the stepper cross loading.
I was wondering WHEN are they going to start using them ! FINALLY ! ! ! YES
Reminds me of the pick&place machines at work, same linear motors, they are way bigger than this printer but are quiter than a regular stepper motor, essentialy all you hear is the bushing/bearing sliding.
well done sir! Looking forward to a follow up when Peopoly gets through doing some software/firmware updates and you've had some time with this baby. Really looking to see how the closed loop system adds value to the printing process!
I'm all for it, less motors and belts is a good idea. Looks amazing for a gen 1. This will become the new standard for design companies will try to replicate.
Thanks, Tom! That's a seriously impressive printer. I hope you do a follow up print result after spending a little time tuning it.
This was such a good watch! I love the style!
Thanks for posting about it after its fully sold out, I watched first day you uploaded -.-
This is something I hope we see more of in the future!
awesome printer, can't wait to see this software polished. Going to produce some insane results in a few years
Linear motor actuators are the future of 3D printing. I always wondered why they weren't used.
How in the hell did you know about the gantry fix. I've been around 3d printing for about as long as the 1st Dremel 3d printer has been out and I didn't ever see that. Thank you for giving me insight to that issue.
Thank you Thomas, nice review, great problem finding,great solutions and no drama.
on the wifi issuie you saw, if it's using an ESP32 for wifi (which it seemed to be doing) it might only be able to connect to 2.4ghz wifi. I know my mesh network forces wifi to 5ghz... /shrug
Congratulations on your excellent in-depth unbiased review of the Magneto X 3d printer.
I commend you for pointing out the electrical standard failings, issues whilst unboxing the printer, software issues (including crash) and oversight in the build instructions, as well as pointing out its better qualities.
The magnetic drive is an unusual unique feature, is it on both the X and Y axis?
From an Engineering point of view I find the magnetic drive and two heater elements in the nozzle intriguing, however as an end user I find the concept of printing in five materials without swopping out materials a better attraction.
Strange that this printer is only available in 240v configuration when the price is in US dollars, clearly targeting the US market and ignoring the European market where 240v is more common.
Although it’s sold out according to their website, it’s offered at a pre-order price of $1,999. Not sure beyond the magnetic drive and the expensive looking nozzle you’re getting for the cost?
I have just found your review so signed up to your TH-cam channel, looking forward to watching some of your other videos. Hope you have one on multi nozzle printers?
Your contents are always valuable and amazing.
Hi @MadeWithLayers, Great video! It was fun to feel like we were discovering the nuances of the printer with you. I got curious and downloaded Orcaslicer 2.0-dev to slice parts for a Magneto X. In the process I noticed that Pressure Advance is not activated by default. So I would imagine the print issues that looked like poor pressure advance tuning was actually pressure advance not on. I'd like to see how different your print turns out with pressure advance on.
„Slick-three-arr”: so cute, cracks me up every time ❤
This is s very clean design, i love what theyre trying to do and honestly it solves a few mechanical shortcomings of the current sort of printer. They may need to use a higher preload slider set, and the tuning should help with rhe waver as well.
Oh man, 3d printers are finally catching up to 90s tech!!!
@3:10 I'd say it's not 2 heating zones, the ribbed aluminum is likely to cool it quickly so it doesn't burn in side/get jammed after retraction.
hope Peopoly listen to this vid and learn,your the man
Great review Thomas. Always look forward to your take on new technology.
Very interesting. I'd love to see you do an update for when the final product is released and see if the bugs get ironed out. I'd love to eliminate the belts on my system I built from scratch, so maybe I'll do some research.
As for you comment on the coarseness of the magnet track. With Linear motors like these you can go pretty coarse and still achieve very good accuracy. By my guess (depending on the driver) this should be able to do some 50 - 10 micron accuracy.
Though indeed I would highly recommend that they find a way to cut down on the control loops running on top of each other, it will hurt ultimate performance. This is very expensive so I do understand why they did it this way for first gen
I hope you are proving feedback to Peoply, the motor shim and they need to stop the Z when the load sensor is triggered - should not have been the print end.
Indeed a wonderful Tech 3D Printer. As it is their first FDM 3D Printer with some amazing motion system. You have some great humor!
They need to hire you as a consultant...
Every manufacturer should include a sound system with a beat while bed levelling like @16:20
A very useful review, thanks for it! This printer isn't ready for market but it has serious promise, will wait to see how it gets developed.
So glad to see you this exited again! 💪 Keep it up! 🎉
In first look, electronics is a little bit overengineered, but is works and looks ducking great. Linear motors are simple and great - I know then from SMT-machines.
Thanks, Tom!
Maybe it's because I have a toddler running around now, but those 230V wiring had me sweating... Even distributing demo devices within the EU already requires CE compliance.
There is an exception for importing products in development to contractors and employees and since you fixed that motor design it might even apply here :D
I think that oscillations is going to need no a little bit but a LOT of tuning. You have there a magnets don't have any kind of dampening like a belt does, and also the closed loop is going to introduce some vibrations and etc etc etc.
I hope they can fix it. That looks just like 2mm spaced belt VFA that most current stepper/belt printers currently suffer from at certain speeds.
Keep in mind he rammed the hotend into the build plate before running a single print. That will absolutely throw off any real printing results
@@xsolar cant imagine it introducing any artefact like that though ...
I cant get over the fact the magnets are just hanging out there, unrestrained, surely this will mean the field is changing with vibration, so that any tuning will only be temporary? Maybe im overthinking that, but i would have thought setting them into something, or potting them in some kind of high temp silicone would be preferred?
@@jeremyglover5541 No, the magnets are not hanging freely, those are in the head and in the raio, like a train. Are kind of exposed? Yes, but not hanging free
I was experimenting with using a brushless DC motor on the extruder itself (a small drone motor with worm drive). It was fundamentally pretty similar to this - a standard control board feeding step/direction inputs to a BLDC driver. (just different axes, and with the magnets in a circle instead of all in a line). I ended up giving up on that project because the closed loop control wasn't fast enough, resulting in the extrusion motor slightly lagging behind where it should have been. I think it was mostly a limitation of the firmware in the ODrive I was using, I wonder what the high frequency movement accuracy of this system looks like
In a bldc system like this it's actually fairly easy to measure that with a logic analyser, you can compare the sequence of steps coming from the printer controller to the encoder positions returned from the linear motors.
Holy 💩, this design just gave me an excellent idea for my own Ender machine.
I've been watching this machine for quite the while but missed the preorder window. While I'm hip-deep in refurbing my giant delta, videos of the magneto X keep popping up reminding me what I'm missing out on. Sigh, such is life! I still like everything about the idea as it combines the best of the best with some novel operating components. I'm sure it's worth the rather modest asking price, but there is that moment of sticker shock up front. And... they're sold out for the next several months. My only real foible with it is the lack of an included enclosure for that price. I'm aware they're available as an extra, just wish it came factory to make it truly entry-level industrial 'out of the box'.
All commercial extrudes have progressive heating bands and I suggested to Festo to use their linear motors on 3D printers 6+ years ago to improve printer resolution. These features are way over due !