This Is How To Make A "Professional Laydown" In Poker
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, we'll be talking about when to make a "professional laydown" in poker. A professional fold is when you release your hand in a spot where recreational players would call. If you can make tough laydowns like this you will win more money at poker.
0:00 - Intro
1:40 - Preflop
3:04 - Flop
5:17 - Turn
10:28 - Hero’s Decision
11:35 -Reveal
12:22 - River
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How often are you making this call on the turn vs opponents in your typical player pool?
I'm almost always snap folding here. To me, this line is typically sets and flopped flushes.
The fact that he jammed real quick on the turn would be a quick call for me. Seen a lot of moves like that with guys showing up AQ with q of d or pockets queens with a diamond. Don't think anyone would play a flopped flush this way... and sets are unlikely calling 3 bets out of position with suuch low pairs
Hopefully, after watching this video, and considering the equity as you did, Bart, less often. I, much like the caller, generally see top top, with nut flush draw and I'm calling. This really illustrates the importance of the math, and considering villain's possible holdings as played. Tough to do for me in a regular speed game, and since much of my play has been online in faster formats, I'm going to need to move to a slower game to have such time to practice thinking these things through. Really does take a lifetime (or more) to master!
Edit: Oh yeah, thanks again Bart!
Honestly, after this video, I should be a little more cautious. I know villain won, but as you said, it's rare for this to happen. I don't know WHAT villain was thinking with absolutely NO diamonds.
@@Eric-tj3tg Agreed. It feels hard to throw away a potential nut flush here, but I understand the math.
Bart's logic is 100% sound here. It is a clear fold, and...
that is why I watch these commentaries, because I probably would have called.
It is a fold all the time, mathematically. If you can adjust the logic of your villains to the maths, it can become a call.
If you see someone overvalue top pairs, which donkbets mostly consist of, this can become a call
The only thing is, 15 years ago it was common for players to ship it here with top pair to try and deny a flush draw. I kept thinking that this guy probably has like Ace Queen without a queen of diamonds and is trying to deny a flush draw.
So, while new fish might not make this move, players who have been fish for two decades, absolutely will
Equity isn't there. Unless you know the player you don't make this call
Nah... Fold nor call are the right answers here..
It really isn't, I think he's giving the bet far too much credit. It's 2/5 and that sort of overbetting from a rec player generally is not a sign of strength IMO. YOu are burning money by folding. It's AK / AQ or some high pair + FD spazz out alot. It's not going to be a flush or straight too often at all IMO, for most players.
" The KEY to poker is aggression, the SECRET to poker is folding ". Roostah 1987.
I was taught in the early stages of my poker life that it ain't what u play it's what u fold. Can u fold a big hand when ur beat?
I am not a huge winning player and i don't claim to ever become one. I Couldn't even answer the question in my head when Bart asked the guy how many outs he had without thinking really hard and long and i would have had to pause the video if i wanted to, but that's not my point. My point is the guy on the phone couldn't either! Yet he still called his opponent a fish. Let's be honest here. If someone asks you how many outs you have and you can't answer and can't do the math for your equity on the river, you have no business calling anybody a fish. That much i do know.
Simple as it's relative: fish is worse than me.
These scenarios come up often enough that everyone should memorize how many outs there are.
zero lies detected
I played for years as a winning regular in MTTs and very rarely would I count outs like this. Instead we memorize what our equity would be percentage wise. Virtually the same thing just done a little different.
When this happens you will never convince a rec that it was a bad call. I remember thinking yes what a read when I would make calls like this. After doing the math on the number of times I was wrong in this spot I changed.
Villain's play kinda screams "made hand that's terrified of a diamond", but I think you still need to fold turn because you don't have the equity to call against so many of those made hands.
The old background never particularly bothered me, but now seeing your new background it is a great improvement.
very good call, tough spot
That's a pretty straightforward call on rec players unless you have a very solid read. It's AK / AQ or a random spazz out a lot.
This is almost purely an exploitative call against a known opponent that blasts off and makes fishy moves. This is not something you’d do against an unknown opponent
I think its actually an exploitative fold, although one that's correct against a lot of people.
Or at a table with solid regs who know what they are doing.
You’re wrong this is an exploitative fold. The sim is going to say snap call. I personally would have to have some info on the villain to make this call live. I would mostly be raising the flop as played and looking to play for stacks.
Live donk bets are almost always a top pair or two pair hand looking for protection.
For a while I thought this was a rare exception, but nope, it was a top pair hand betting for protection.
I believe this is a call and villain's AK proves this to me. If villain shoves with AK he certainly would do so with AxQd and maybe AxJd.
You also missed or did not mention the three 5s as additional outs for a chop, BTW.
Against a nit, this is a fold. Against a "wild player" - as mentioned several times in the call - this is an insta-call!
It's a call for me too because I'd be tempted to get it all in on the flop anyway so realistically the turn was a brick imo. He's either got a flush or a hand like you mentioned
Villain's AK proves nothing at all! The question we should be asking is what we should do in this spot in general, not what this specific opponent happened to be holding. Sure, OP can take villain's behavior into account when deciding whether to call or not but generally I think this is a fold.
If I close my eyes and cross the street and nothing happens, it doesn't prove that it was a good move.
@@iamamish "Villain's AK proves nothing at all! " - Strong Disagree! It proves that the opponent can have AK - a hand that Bart excluded - and it makes it also rather certain that the opponent can have AQ - which also was excluded by Bart. Since hero has a huge equity advantage against AK/AQ it becomes almost certain that hero should call indeed against villain on the turn - contrary to what Bart advocated for.
"The question we should be asking is what we should do in this spot in general, not what this specific opponent happened to be holding."
- Again, I disagree. In this call hero faced this opponent and the question was what should he have done against this opponent.
It is a very different question what I should do in this situation (my image is totally different from hero's and I play in different games) against a specific opponent and it is also a very different question what I should do against unknown in the games I play. And for you it is different again since you have a different image and play in different games.
If you and I were to give our 'general answer' we can endlessly argue about it since the assumptions we make are shaped by our experiences and thus will be very different. In short there is no general answer unless we agree on all the assumptions (i.e. what is hero's and villain's preflop range, which part of the range acts as played on the flop and which part of villain's range pushes All-In on the turn). Getting to the generic answer would be an interesting way to spend a few hours, though;-)
@Jimmy Two Times I completely agree with you (and love your username - Goodfellas is amazing).
Let's say you flip a coin and I say, "I KNOW for certain that it will be heads", and then it is heads. Does that prove that I knew? No, not at all.
The person who started this thread claimed that bc villain had AK, that proved the decision was correct, and my point is that the actual result does not prove anything one way or the other about the strategy.
I disagree with Bart here. Assuming the caller has 30% equity when behind and 90% equity when ahead, it becomes a breakeven call as long as villain has a bluff 25% or more of the time.
Considering the tight configuration, as well as the Ad and Kd being dead, I think you can discount a lot of the value combos villain is representing (QJdd, JTdd, 44, 33, A4, A3). I also think that villain can be value-owning himself with AQd and AJd. Villain could also just be completely out to lunch considering that a lot of rec players are not going to believe that hero has a flush (KQdd being the only combo?). This is the second best hand that hero could conceivably have behind just AA. I'm calling here all day.
U mah brudda! Factoring in only value and not giving a fish the value-owning range he could have here is an error. Donkbets are more often than not top pairs and we have the best one with a redraw. Given the board is A high, he would at least expect a cbet and would check raise the hard value instead of donking it.
I dug this one✌️
Black Back Looks good 👌🏽👌🏽
Black background is a big improvement, Bart
Christmas Day tourney was good to me. $4 satelite to a $109 RB and 3rd for $3548
Agree with those saying that if you know the player in question and they’re capable of doing this with air it’s a decent call. Against most players it’s probably a fold.
One thing I’ve learned from Barts show is half the time, villain has hands we never considered. Heuristically, fold stronger hands less often, he has everything.
You are ignoring selection bias. The hands you see on the show are not a random sampling, ie not representative of what typically happens.
Why do people call in? Specifically because the hand was surprising, and if you are only looking at surprising hands then of course villains have surprising hands more often.
I'd probably a fold but it's likely closer than it seems. If you factor in 5's, which wasn't included and if he's a true 'fish', then the equity might be close. If he's stacking off w/ AK w/ no diamond, I'd bet AQ / AJ would be in his range. Fishy players usually don't jam 2x pot with a hand as big as a flopped flush. How many sets are really in his range? AA is pretty much out, he's UTG and opening / calling 3bets w/ 44 and 33? Maybe but I wouldn't give him all the sets. How many flushes are there to a UTG open, call 3bet w/ the AKd out of the deck? QJ, JT? I'd give him 3 flushes at the maximum and likely the same amount of sets. Add up the Ax, throw in the flushes and sets and maybe an airball and it's probably not insanely -ev.
It feels like 2 pair or a big A w/ maybe a diamond. If he puts us on KK/QQ/JJ w/ a diamond, AT+ I could see a lighter range shoving to protect against a diamond. I'd fold against most players, but if I knew the villain, I'd call against some fish.
Would the caller make such a call if this is an unknown opponent? Sometimes it's playing the player not the cards.
Hey Bart... Love your stuff... Here I think u have to factor in all the AQ, AJ, AT, too ...U have too for sure if u factor in A2, A3, A4, A5 imo... and then I think you have a very close decision . Best regards Kim
Very lucky. Whenever I used to call here it was always a flush or a set.
At 2x pot? Why would villain bet 2x with those hands? You'll fold almost everything.
@@wachtwoord5796 Recs at 2-5 2x shove pots all day with flopped 2 pairs, sets and baby flushes on monotone boards. They get scared on the turn of getting sucked out by diamonds. Very rarely do recs have the knowledge and balls to turn AK off into a bluff on that turn. This was a rare outcome.
@@wachtwoord5796I’m not saying it’s a good play. Just what I’ve tended to see. I guess baby flushes don’t want to get sucked out on with a 4th diamond.
@@usernamesrlamo villain didn't shove AK as a bluff here.
I'm just saying that I believe shoving 2x pot is a middle of their range thing here that is scared if the flush possibility. That's why I'd call and expect to be ahead no (and have 90+% equity) at least half the time.
Winning that pot was the worst thing that could have happened to him as a growing player.
He's just saying getting rewarded with the win there stunts his learning curve. Cause winning a big pot there will likely have him not feeling he did anything wrong. He ran into the one hand that was a chop 80%. When he's normally Gonna be in such a horrible equity situation the rest of the times
If you look at Barts face when he hears the Td hits it looks like he agrees with you.
Agreed. He already has the condensing tone calling him a recreational fish but all I heard is him making a terrible call that worked out for him in more ways than one. It's more of a fish move to call it off than it is to bet imo
I play 2-3-5 and if this was my first buy-in, I thought, it will be an immediate all-in on the flop. May be, I am watching too much Rampage :)
In a vacuum this is a fold. Sounds like the caller had some history and knows the villain is a little blasty. Bart didn't seem to consider the timing tell.
Good fish way more likely to play AK this way than sets, 2 pairs and flushes. I was confident we were freerolling.
I was thinking raise flop to about$350 or $375. Still not sure why that's wrong. You can get value from weaker aces and hands with one diamond, and you're drawing to the nuts if you get called by better. What's wrong with that?
I think I prefer it. Allows them to put you on a flush draw and spazz out with 1 pair and 1 pair/fd hands. Flat call is fine too though.
That's where gambling part comes in, fun part.
Aloha, this is true which is why i sometimes play for fun, but playing for money i,d fold.
sooooo many of these hands lately where villains donk in spots where they should never have a leading range. its just going to mean different things when different opponents do it. if villain is the least bit dopey i think you have to be prepared to stack off here at some point pre-river (though over 200bbs is kinds getting to the point where we need to proceed with more caution. like 150bbs or less i think its an auto-stackoff.) so many villains in lower stakes games are making bizarre plays like this with such a wide range of hand strengths. my very very very overgeneralized heuristic in these spots is that villains generally dont do this with super strong hands. i always start there and adjust accordingly based on opponent skill and tendencies, stack size, board texture, etc.
I donk all my monsters.
-winning player
So wait, results-based analysis is NOT optimal...? 🤔
Okay, got it, thanks! 😃
Maybe I'm a fish but I think its a call. We have at least decent equity when behind, agree not enough to call, and we're beating bluffs. Its a weird way for V to play a flush. There are some people I'd fold against but thats the exploit when you fold, not when you call.
The “ok fish” take this kind of line when they believe they have the best hand in the moment and really want to protect from draws. He easily could’ve done this with AQ/AJ etc diamond or not. This is one of the best hands you will have often here
UTG couldve had QxQ with Q of diamonds too?
His name is Giovanni Giorgio, everyone calls him Giorgio.
Bwop bwop bwa bwop bwop bwop bwa bwop bwop bwop bwop
Mr Papa Giorgio?
In my experience, this is almost never AK>. It's usually a flush that doesn't wanna see anymore cards. Maaaybe a set, but that turn would slow down a semi-fish if they had a set. Either way, hero is behind most of the time. Bad exploitative call.
This can be ak if villian is basically new to poker lol
Why are they not discussing JQ and 10,J of diamonds? Players love suited connectors.
Idk I think there are a ton of small flushes out there
Funny how he called the other guy a fish 😅😅
maybe i missed everything but im calling 100% raising 100% of the time. what did i miss?
Most recreationals show up with a flush or set here always. Think about it from his perspective. You 3bet him and then an ace high flop came. He'll perceive your range to have lots of AA, AxKd, KxKd, QxQd, and some AQd in it. He's not likely to blast off at this board with air, ever. There's just no point in bluffing hard oop at this board against a 3bettor. But if he flopped a flush with any suited connector, his line is actually pretty optimal to get max value against your AA, AKd, AxQd and KKd especially if you are going to call him down with the type of hand you did. I think you are behind here always, except for this rare spot where you freerolled him.
"He's a recreational fish" 💅
I think i get villians thinking, hes terrified of a diamond so he bets huge trying to end it .
Sure seems like most live donk bets are weak and someone trying to set their own price, which I think makes this much more of a call. IDK the player, but how many of them are making it $25 then calling the third bet with 33/44 from OOP? All of that, to me, makes this a call. If this was a check raise, different story.
It's a mandatory call. Imagine folding this hand, what are the hands you are actually going to defend with? If you fold this, you are going to be folding all day and villain can just run you over. On top of that, I do believe fishy players may very well have AQ with the Qd, in this spot. I didn't expect AKs, but the fact that villain had that I think proves it
But the turn jam was a huge over bet, so if you're going by MDF, you only have to defend like 20% of your range in this situation.
@@bradleyhines604 Which are which hands?
Let me think.. remember, you 3 bet pre flop and called the donk, so... I don't think AK is in the top 20% do you?
You know what? I just ran it on equilab and it's closer than I thought. Maybe it is a call. It's close
@@bradleyhines604 I very much do, yeah
"even the trash can gets a steak once in a while..." 😉
I wouldn't fold this to a complete fish because fish tend to overvalue / overplay top pairs, I wouldn't be surprised to see AQ or AJ here, with or without a diamond.
I think this is a bluff more often than it's a flopped flush, no? That would be an exceptionally idiotic line with a flush. It does feel like a very scared two pair or set. At 1/2 against non-nits, this is a call all day because they're so bad. At higher stakes, I bet this is always a fold since you block the only bluff. At 2/5, it's probably iffy. They're almost as bad as 1/2 players.
The fish in the story is the caller. Can’t count do basic poker maths AND justifies making a horrible call like this when from a logical perspective it’s just soooo -EV. 99% of the time you have
This hand feels very opponent specific? Opponent's line makes little sense. The assumption that this is 2 pair+ seems bad vs. a lot of players. I think like the caller said, you're way ahead here a very good portion of the time. Against an OMC type I could see a fold, but barring a read this seems like a call to me.
Nah 2 pair and sets make sense, afraid of another diamond blast off.
Thing is guy read the player and factored in the guy does this with some air and some non made premium hands
tne sizing villain's using is suspicious. wouldn't they bet smaller on the turn with flopped flush? over shoving with a set is also seeming unlikely. in these low stakes live cash game, a lot of people over play their one pair hand. hero's hand is way too strong to fold against those players.
This type of sizing and aggression is mostly flush draw or pair with a flush draw
would villan (a fish, not sure what that means, could mean many things) open A4 or A3 or 44 or 33 from UTG? I assume this is a 9 handed table.. I would fold those usually. So maybe they have another hand... not always 2 pair or a set.
I agree. The UTG raise 9-handed skews towards premium hands. A true fish is more likely to flat with small pocket pairs and small suited aces in that spot.
Hello darkness my old friend.
this is extremely lucky caller. I know plenty of Regs that play a flopped flush same way.
Yeah loads of comments saying no one plays a flush this way, but plenty of players with baby flushes do. They’re scared of that 4th diamond or board pair.
So villain is the fish but caller makes questionable call...?okay.
depends on what your opinion is on the value of exploitative play is. especially against weaker opponents.
1.One way to look at this is, if he plays like this all the time he’ll lose more than he’ll win.
2. Another way to look at it is, if he didnt play like this against this specific opponent he would’ve made $2000k less than he had.
I guess the caveat is that he wouldn’t play that hand the same way in the first option every time since it depends on the opponent. I think specifically that the villain was so bad is the only way a call like that could ever be good.
Two fish swimming upstream together
Obviously the math discussion is important and relevant, certainly against very good players. But he's playing 2 5 against a not very good player. In this discussion there wasn't near enough discussion about the villain or any reads. I get that Barts entire gig is math, but the other players skill and read on him is vastly more important.
I listen to this hand live and then watch the video. This was an under the gun raise without a straddle to five times the big blind. How many 44 or 33 does hebhave in his range?. How many fives does he have in his range here on the turn?
The under the gun just called the three bet so I'm not putting him on AA. His donk on the flop screams ace king or ace queen with the queen of diamonds or Queen Jack of diamonds Queen ten of diamonds or jack ten of diamonds. But again how many of those is he opening from under the gun to 5X? If you put possible hands he would open under the gun and give them a weighted distribution he's going to have a lot more ace king ace queen then he is Queen Jack Queen 10 or Jack 10 of diamonds.
If I don't have the king of diamonds, I'm probably folding the flop. But with the king of diamonds, I have the best hand a lot and if I don't I do have outs.
If this player was from middle position or came in behind on the button or was in one of the blinds I think The decision would change.
Who jams 2nd nut flush on turn in this spot? He is OBVS trying to protect his hand.
I disagree with bart on this one.
Just to shorten it up, imo that line is just total buttonclicking, and whenever I face complete randomness, you have to include airballs.
Is a guy like that really raising 44 or 33 utg in the first place for 5x? Is he raising A2-A5 and calling a 3bet? With A and K of diamonds out there, what flushes does he have? Sure, QJ, QT, JT, but thats few combos, and is he raising any other combos and calling a 3bet? In such a strange range, you have to include AQ,QQ with Qd, AK and probably some other shit I dont even can think of right now.
Preflop and otf, against 5x utg and against this lead otf hands I would 3bet and make it to the turn would be:
AK, AQ, maybe AJs, AA, KK,QQ,JJ with a diamond, all A2-A5. Not many flushes, I would not 3bet KQdd against utg 5x. So with that being said, I can fold jj-kk, i can fold AK without the diamond, AQ and call the other stuff. Its probably pretty close, but I tend to call
Why would someone shove 2x pot with a very good hand here? I don't see him ever having better than 2 pair here. I am never folding this until I've seen this particular villain do this with something better than 2 pair.
Also when counting Bart forgot to count the 4 split pot outs.
The comments in these responses make me think I'm not fast-playing donk leading enough with strong hands.
I do it, or when out of position. I get called A LOT.
find a better spot to call off. i feel like he has sets, aces up, straight, or a small flush. we block the most natural bluff. terrible pot odds with crappy equity vs his value range. EZ fold
I don't understand the analytical side of poker. It's PHD speak and I have no college experience. I really just watch these for perspective and it ends up just because background noise lmfao
Bart's channel is a playground for Jungian projection. Manifests itself every time a caller refers to villains as fish. This caller has no idea what all his outs are and what his equity is.
Agree completely. Caller sounds like a beginner player.
@@jameswalker7420Or just mediocre like myself. I recognize similar. And notice the good and great players never use the word "fish" to describe opponents; only mediocre players do
Simple math equation. Bad call. It’s more optimistic to think Villan is on a draw then value. When hero has main bluff draw, Kd
Op has to be protecting his hand right? Flopped flush jam is a bit unlikely because why push your op off his hand. Honestly, he could have A?Qd or some BS. 12 outs or 25% + fwit factor of 25% = call! HaHa.
How is a jam with AxQd “protecting your hand”? Protecting your hand means jamming with a hand that’s likely ahead but vulnerable.
Jamming with QJdd would be jamming for protection because it’s almost certainly ahead when called but vulnerable to board pairs (vs a flopped set) or a 4th diamond (vs hands with the Kd).
Jamming with AxQd is a semi bluff. You’re never getting called by a worse hand.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj he thinks his hand is ahead at least a reasonable percentage of the time.
He didn’t jam AK off knowing full well he was dominated did he?
@@WillPage no idea why V jammed AK no diamond tbh. Seems like a terrible play. Only thing I can think is he was hoping to
bluff hero off a chop. But if so I’d want to have a diamond in my hand at least.
I can find a fold, but not against this player!
An “ok fish” is an oxymoron
too much makeup bart
Not enough makeup
And of course I’m joking because who really cares?
How is this not a call? I don't get it? This isn't Texas is it where they're going to have a pile of hands? Because where I play, UTG opening and then calling a 3B! And this board comes out, and I have the K of diamonds, hes literally never going to have a flush here. Sorry but in my game theres only like 2 combos of flushes he's going to have. 2 hands that beat us. That's it. QJd and J10d are literally the only hands that get open UTG and call a 3b! At my 2-5 game at ENCORE. Nobody is showing up with 89s here or 78s. It's just not happening. Few people will. Those who are good players. But donking here shows this dude isn't good lmao. What hands beat us? I don't get it. The only single combo of AA that gets slow played? No lol. 22-55 doesn't get opened UTG. Showdown here shows you how tight an UTG open and defend to a 3B! Really is. He had AKo. That's top of range lmao.
Why the V's range cannot be: A2, A3, A4, A5, 44, 33, 55, 9Td, TJd, TQd, QJd? Did you figure he had good pot odds to call $0.9k into $1.3k pot?
@@pot_kivach160 because i don't think those hands open UTG and defend to 3b!. Certainly not A2 A3 A4 A5. Those should be 4B! Or folds. You should not be calling a 3b! With a suited wheel Ace OOP. -EV play. I also don't think 33 44 even open UTG, let alone do I think they call a 3B!. 66+ from UTG. 2s-5s should be folds. Again, the only flushes I see being here are QJ J10 occasionally Q10 and 10 9. That's it. J9s is not an open and defend to 3B! UTG. Guys don't open J9s UTG at a regular 2-5 game lol. Talking about a game that's 9 handed. KQo is probably a fold UTG 9handed and a lot of people do.
@@speakinfaxonly21 you're talking sound poker reasoning. Is the V profile of that caliber, that is the question. Some people just can't fold...or 4!bet. Thanks.