@@nathanlevesque7812Seems reasonable to me. If everything goes well for the legion in mojave, they get one ncr city and a stupid amount of casualties in exchange.
I also got to say that the biggest reason why Caesar - or Edward Sallow, won't be able to make it pass the hub, is that he'll be dead already without Courier intervention. Lanius will most likely wisely either keep the hub as a Legion outpost or as you said, salt it and destroy the hub completely before retreating to the long fifteen and officially make the Mojave be part of the Legion. Preston would then give the Sole Survivor a mark on his Pipboy that a settlement out west is in need of their help. Here, he'll mark it on our map.
I agree. Hypothetically if Caesar's Legion makes it pass the Hub. Eventually divine intervention or miracles will happen. Where a hero will emerge to defeat Caesar and his Legion. Whether it's the Solo Survivor, a descendant of the chosen one or even a prodigy NCR Soldier.
Or maybe Vulpes or some other frumentarri kidnap a follower (like doc usangi) to treat caesars tumor and the followers pacifist nature and doctors code wouldn’t permit them to kill Caesar
Judging it from a military historians perspective it seems most likely that the Legion will successfully invade and hold the Mojave but be bogged down once they attempt to invade California.
Well I didn’t mean to write a novel, buuuut... I’d guess something comparable to the American civil war, where an objectively far superior (at least, at first) fighting force defeats an unprepared enemy over and over for a few months, but as their good soldiers are gradually killed or wounded and replaced by conscripts they lose their primary advantage, and then their inability to replace weapons/gear and men drains their ability to fight at all, let alone be on the offensive. Legionaries take a decade to properly train so their only reinforcements would be disloyal slave soldiers, who would surrender as soon as it was safe to. The Legion can only grow weaker, while the NCR will only grow stronger, as it picks up momentum and both outnumbers and outguns the legion. Especially because they’re desperately defending their homeland, not some desert they don’t really care about. Basically, WWII Eastern front where Germany is completely unindustrialized. Oh, and that’s without the NCR’s indirect fire, which the Legion would have no response to other than retreat. Artillery support, field mortars, chemical weapons, and possible air strikes, all coordinated with ground forces. The NCR almost definitely has a small fleet of vertibirds, and with the scientific knowledge seen in New Vegas, could definitely mass-manufacture chemical weapons. The Legion would need to not only possess the same technology, but transport it with them, while the NCR just needs to wait. The only way the Legion could win was if they took the NCR’s industrial centers AND capital before the ANCR could mobilize, and they had the numbers to cover and hold the entire NCR, and the NCR didn’t have air/artillery support or biochem weapons to decimate them, and they could hold off all counterattacks, and survived an inevitable guerrilla war, all before attrition set in and doomed them. Maybe if the Enclave gave them support, but even if the NCR fell the remnants would run a guerrilla war that would drag on for years and years. My verdict: Legion deals the NCR multiple humiliating defeats for a few weeks/months until they lose momentum and stall, then the fully mobilized and very angry ANCR counterattacks, seals the border to encircle the Legion, and uses indirect fire on what’s left until the Legion is... ancient history (YEAAAAAAH). Alternatively, the NCR starts hitting the Legion with artillery as soon as it crosses the border, then repeatedly strafes the survivors with vertibirds when they turn around and retreat. NCR chases them into and then out of the Mojave, where things get messy again.
@@darealjoff19 The Legion would eventually win in the end. Legion will adapt and basically it is like America in Vietnam. You describe all the reasons America should win in Vietnam but due to them not understanding that Guerilla warfare/wars can't be countered or won by Verti-birds and Artillery. Even the Technology Advanced Brotherhood learned this against the NCR. The NCR makes the same mistake that the Brotherhood did that they are superior therefore they will win but we saw how that happened.
@@darealjoff19 The way I see it, the Legion under Caesar would recuperate after winning Hoover Dam and convert the region into his vision of Rome (which hinges on him surviving the tumor). The Legion under Lanius would likely collapse or devolve into a glorified raider tribe focused single-mindedly on warfare. Though Lanius is brilliant in his own way, he likely does not understand how to run an empire during a time of peace. Caesar is not only the one with a thorough plan for the Legion, but he understands how to fight meticulously. He knew to bide his time building up an army over the course of 4 years, and came back even stronger for it. And unlike Lanius, Caesar sees the value in using frumentarii and other such "dishonorable tactics". I think yaboiii neglects how much of a disadvantage the Legion is at due to their rejection of technology, there's no way in hell any centurion can take down an NCR vertibird unless they fly in range of a howitzer (which are immobile and easy to avoid). I'm sure Caesar (unlike Lanius) intends to eventually incorporate technology into the Legion's regiment (given his interpretation of Hegelian dialectics), but in terms of an immediate NCR invasion it would be too little too late. They should feel lucky they haven't had any proper wars with the Enclave or Brotherhood yet, even the Enclave remnants manage to score heavy casualties in the epilogue. But much like the Legion, the NCR may also evolve into something greater in order to deal with their new enemy. Kimball's assassination could very well be a boon for the NCR. It eliminates a corrupt and incompetent leader and acts as a wakeup call to start taking the Mojave conflict more seriously. Ultimately, due to how large and long-established the NCR is, they're on sturdier ground than the recently founded Legion. The NCR can bounce back from a few devastating blows to their leadership, whereas the Legion's prosperity seems to hinge entirely upon Caesar and Lanius.
@Nunya Business Exactly. Honestly, the biggest thing to realize about the NCR is that they were losing in the Mojave not because they were at a disadvantage, but because they *weren't putting their backs into it* . They were too busy fighting amongst themselves and squabbling, plus they pulled out much of their forces to do other things. If they lost at Hoover Damn, I don't expect them to sit idly by and cry about the Legion snapping up Vegas and the Damn, not to mention killing off much of their soldiers and their president. Hell, I'd even say they'd launch counterattacks as soon as the Legion set foot in Vegas.
Good point at the end. If Legion invades, the NCR would have to become more militaristic. It might use an emergency production act to nationalize Brahmin Baron assets which might help it break out of its rut of corruption.
Or assuming the ncr doesn’t collapse into factions like NCSR New California Socialist Republic who follow an author simply known as “The father” (and yes he is Karl Marx) Or the CIS (confederacy of independent settlements) And cities like New Reno, Vault city, and other would succeed from the ncr While ncr loyalists assuming they don’t get overthrown or are by the ncrs but the ncrs falls into defeat after defeat from legion and their own And the CiS would fall the infighting with the help of legion spies Annnndddd what might happen next? Well I have an idea but it needs more time in the oven (it’s probably overcooked by now)
Your assessment of the Mojave Outpost/Long 15 is way off. Everything in a Fallout game is scaled down massively. For example, the NCR looses over 1000 troops in the Mojave each year. There's probably not 100 troopers in the whole game. New Vegas, outer districts and ruins included, is very small compared to real life Las Vegas. Just because we see the Mojave Outpost as 2 buildings doesn't mean that's all that's there. Like every other settlements, what we see is a small sample of the real thing. It's also a place that can be easily reinforced. Since the Outpost is visable from the other military encampments of the Long 15, we have to assume those troops could be moved up as soon as any fighting began. Unless the area actually does get nuked, in which case the Legion probably will need to find a new route west.
"They even have an outpost scant miles west from here." Words spoken by a Brotherhood Scout, in Nipton, referring to the Mojave outpost. In game the distance looks barely a mile. Everything is downscaled, exactly.
Massively scaled down, its impossible to actually get a read of the strengths and weaknesses of each faction because of how scaled down they are. I was just talking about this last night on the "who would win if the courier died" video. My opinion of the state of things in the Mojave is that no faction has enough resources and power to take the entire region without crippling themselves in some way. I believe the legions losses would be far to great after the battle at the dam and the subsequent occupation of the Mojave. The NCR is to fractured and strained to move into the east. Mr.House is only really interested in Vegas and if he had total control of Vegas I don't think he'd be liable to do anything but maybe keep the legion on the other side of the grand canyon and allow NCR to fund the strip like the way the game began.
Another point for in-game scale != in-universe scale are the Vaults. The games describe some of them as being able to hold a population up to 1,000 people (albeit with hot-bunking) while none of the in-game Vaults we've seen in the series yet could feasibly do that, and an in-universe advertisement seen in FO1 depicts a Vault with a large layout with many floors that none of the Vaults in-game really resemble. This idea is pretty common with a lot of RPGs; especially retro ones but it shows up in modern ones too. We're not really supposed to believe that places described as large bustling cities actually have a population in the high double digits or low triple digits at best. EDIT: This also occurs in games from other genres too of course, but I mean that sort of RPG trope where even supposedly huge cities still only have like a few dozen NPCs and aren't that much significantly larger than the towns elsewhere on the map.
Yeah I always imagined that if Caesar won then the Mojave Outpost becomes the NEW Hoover Dam basically. Its kinda the same too, 1 way in 1 way out. Took 4 years and alot of dead legionaries to take Hoover Dam, dont see the Mojave Outpost being any easier. Except this time the Legion has to hold the Mojave AND take the Outpost, no small task I say.
Ever notice how almost 11 years later people are still talking about Fallout New Vegas and its story while Fallout 4 has kinda become a forgotten relic of 2015.
@@bruhcorp5172 It is true to an extent but distorted truth ... Fallout 4 still gets talked about, fallout 4 is a great game which many people love ... but fallout new vegas is definitely superior in terms of the storyline. But its not a zero sum game .. in order for FNV to be great too and even superior in certain aspects .. Falllout 4 does not need to be diminished in any way Where we can easily agree is that Fallout 76 tho a good game was unfinished too much and only targeted a certain part of original target audience and was aimed at bringing new audience into the fold. Bethesda just needed that Skyrims ESO for Fallout universe and I guess thats fine, but I dont feel any need to play Online versions of these games at all since I want that singleplayer RPG experience only. But I dont need to shit on everything I dont like.
Despite agreeing with your Mojave campaign vid 99%, I'm gonna have to disagree right away with this one. There are two definitive reasons that the Legion would take the Mojave: 1. They have spent the last four years getting ready to exclusively take the Hoover dam, and by extension the Mojave. 2. General Oliver is a moron. You eliminate both of those factors and add the fact the NCR is now fighting on home territory, and it is tough to see the Legion pushing into the NCR or vice versa anytime soon. At that point, it is 100% theory crafting and fanfic, which is fun, albeit without much weight.
I don’t think a lot of people really understand the importance of Hoover dam to the NCR. Why they’ve been fighting years and years, sending over a 1000 of troops to die every year. They’ve been putting this much money, lives, and resources to defend the dam for two reasons. Clean Water and Power. Water is essential for growing crops. It needs water to grow and without crops, there is no food other than animals which feed on said crops. Before Hoover dam, there wasn’t a lot of water to go around. They drained aquifers, neglected their own small dams, and turned entire reservoirs into just mud and dust. However, once they found Hoover dam? Found how much clean water it gave, it was like a godsend. It provided as much water as they needed and were able to grow crops with it. It solved most of their issues too. Only problem was actually getting it to the sharecroppers in the Mojave. Too bad this was still not enough. They were still going to have a food shortage in 10 years, even with all this water. Power. Power is needed to... power... most advanced technology in fallout. Cars, trains, radios, and possibly vertibirds. Anything that moves needs power. NCR was running into power shortages. They weren’t able to power everything they needed. That’s including the homes of NCR citizens. However, again, Hoover dam answers their prayers. Even with it’s efficiency not at 100%, it still solves most of their issues. They were able to power their trains, radios, cars, and the households of NCR citizens. Only problem was, still, was transportation of said power. Even with all this power, they needed more. That’s why they captured the Helios One power plant. Too bad that wasn’t running efficiently either. They still needed more power. Now you can see that Hoover dam isnt something that powers the NCR, it’s something they NEED. They lose Hoover dam, they’re crippled and will collapse. Too bad that’ll never happen- oh, there goes Hoover dam.... hm... let’s talk about what happens now. Water scarcity. Now that they lost Hoover dam, they don’t have water anymore. Have best, just water shortages. This means crops can’t grow. This means no food, this means people not being fed, cattle not being fed. People die of starvation, cattle die of starvation. Luckily, they won’t have to worry about that since dehydration will kill them first. We still need water to live. Without water, we die. We die quickly without water. Citizens die of dehydration, troops die of dehydration. Wait, don’t they have aquifers, reservoirs, or even dams of their own? Nope! Most, if not All, were drained before Hoover dam! Now, the lack of food quickens, if not brings, the food shortages. People will die of starvation if the dehydration doesn’t first. Power shortages. Any little advantage the NCR has with its technology is now gone. Cars still need power, radios need power, trains need power. If the NCR had any of those things, those are now inert. If they were any people to man them, they’re now useless. The NCR heavily relied on Hoover dam for power but needed more. They went for Helios One to get more power, even with Hoover Dam. Now that they don’t Hoover dam or even Helios one, they’re screwed. Power shortages are the worst they’ve ever been. Anything that needs power, something as simple as a lightbulb, does not work anymore. How the NCR praises itself for having “great” technology? How it hoisted itself up for being a powerful nation because of it? Now, gone. It’s not that Hoover dam is armor for NCR, it’s a crutch that’s holding them from collapsing. They lose Hoover dam, they lose the war.
@@roderick04 And it's not just that. If they lose the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam, they will lose their entire reputation back in the California. People will start questioning their actions, Brahmin Barons, Senators (other settlements) and Moneylords will start thinking about leaving the NCR and going independent and they will probably try negotiating with the Legion. NCR collapses in the 3 endings of the game. If Mr. House wins the Battle, Crimson Caravans, Gun Runners, other merchant companies and majority of Ranchers will immigrate to the Vegas and start their business over there. They will leave the NCR because NCR's economy will go downhill. As we see in the game, NCR's economy is in a bad state and they desperately need the Hoover Dam. The NCR Senate will fight with each other on what to do next, they will probably crucify Kimball and his butt buddie General Wait-And-See and try to negotiate with Mr. House, just to lower the price for electricity and water. Mr. House will know the fact that now he has the NCR in his claws, he will offer them a fair deal in exchange for their mechanics and scientists, the NCR Senate will desperately accept the deal. Mr. House will use the mechanics and scientists for his own personal agenda. In any case, NCR will collapse. It's so obvious in the game, why do people still think that the NCR is going to live and thrive?
@@Kreia. well in that case only the legion wins seeing as house requires the NCR for his plan of improvements His whole thing is to hold the dam as leverage to get money from the NCR Without that well The house goes bust
@@roderick04 you make valid arguments except not really We've seen out west people put together water purifiers from random scrap they find meaning the NCR a nation that produces could easily supply themselves with water not to mention the sierra Nevada was recently pacified allowing more water from all that snow same with the power generators it's not a crippling loss but more a demoralizing one basically just Pearl Harbor The only real problem would be food but that could be dealt with in a number of ways
A westward invasion wouldn't occur quite how you described I think, namely as it doesn't match Caesar's current known strategy, which is one of subterfuge, undermining, then assault. It's no great coincidence that after defeat at Boulder City Caesar spent 4 years recovering, but also planting spies amongst enemy lands. I'm not saying a Westward expansion wouldn't still be a bloody affair, but you'd have to imagine he would have Frumentarii undermining each and every major NCR roadblock. As for the Hub, I don't think Caesar would try to attack it. Not only would he have to fight the NCR, but he would also face some of the wealthiest people in charge of caravans, who have vested interest in keeping the Hub's status quo. I would however, be interested to see how effective Frumentarii are in more sophisticated and well supplied NCR regions.
As a current pre-war citizen of the Hub, The Legion either takes this town and the rest of Southern California, or the Legion stops here. The natural terrain is a bottleneck that favors western defense. If taken, however, it's the perfect point to assault the West.
I believe that after the sacking of settlements along the Long 15, the Legion - having taken heavy casualities, would withdraw. However I dont agree with some that this would end the Legion or put it at a severe disadvantage. Caesar is prideful but not a fool. After ripping the economic heart out of the NCR, a long period of the two powers being bordering states would favour the Legion. The Mojave has enough cosmopolitan resources and culture that the dialectical synthesis would start for the Legion. As the Legion comes to base itself in a perminent city, supported by Hoover dam and a new wealth of technology, it would be in a great position to recover from losses and establish a civilian element. As Legate Lanius states, there is still territory out East to be conquered, the Legion need not loose all momentum as it recovers and prepares for its next encounter. The NCR however, stripped of the Hoover dam, taking huge material and moral attrition, and having its economy in tatters, would only further deteriorate with time. They already couldn't pacify raiders within their own terrirory and on their borders, imagine the chaos after a loss to the Legion on home soil. All of this would be further accelerated by a bolstered Frumentarii which have shown themselves to be extremely effective and the NCR has failed to properly counter them. The big problem comes with Caesars death. Given the efficacy of their actions, and more time to prepare, I don't think it's improbable that a Frumentarii faction could come to power, which would be terrible news for the NCR. If however Lanius still assumes power, he's already stated he doesn't want to fall into the trap of the west. The NCR would slowly tear itself apart while the Legion would gradually gain power. I don't see a NCR victory as likely in the least.
The legion could split on caesars death since we know there are other commanders that oppose lanius. The fact that the legion doesn’t like to use technology, means that they would struggle to push into core ncr territory. The only reason the ncr is struggling in the Mojave is because of supply issues. But if the legion pushes into California then they’ll be the ones with supply issues.
Just saying, i'd imagine a dying Caesar, as Caesar was an "intellectual" at heart, would at the last moment put Vulpus in charge of the legion rather then the legate. Implying Vulpus would be put into power (AND only with him will the legion be successful) you sort of enter a literal cold-war state of being. Sure the Furmentarii will successfully infuriate every aspect of NCR government (As the soviets did with the US) but without manpower / infilstructure / Cultural influence its neglected by the seer size and national pooled resources / economy. I think the NCR is too powerful to be truly defeated by Furmentarii alone, that said if the Legion were equally as big as the NCR then they would have the man power to proceed with such a tactic but they just don't... The east is apparently a recently cleansed hellzone (Raul literally states that "Boss, if you think the Legion is bad, you should've seen it before they came into power, i don't mind them" while the NCR has been MOSTLY pacified (despite the gangs mentioned, there are traitors that state the NCR is "mostly" raider free so much so that power armored troops are defending rich brahmin rancher lords...
Carlos Even then, Vulpes is a spy and assassin, not a leader. Vulpes is no Ceaser, he doesn’t have the leadership skill and doesn’t have the backing of the other legionaries, none of the legions commanders were made to replace Ceaser.
Only thing is the NCR is a massive economic state, they have most of all the caravan companies backing them, most weapon companies backing them, and have way more people to produce crops, and res our way. The NCR has far greater resources than the Legion, they wanted the Mojave for the power and caps.The Legion relies on slave trades, but once the slaves find a way to rebel or the NCR frees them, the Legion will lose most of its strength, they only use half of their population as soldiers since women aren’t allowed to fight, or do anything useful, the Legion is outnumbered by the NCR, NCR just hold the long 15 which they can do as the NCR settlements are much farther down the Long 15 and far away from the Mojave outpost, the Legion would have to march a long way and by that time they will have to attack well prepared and reinforced settlements.
I think after the victory in the Mojave Caesars myth would finally be secured and the Legion would no longer be as brittle should he die. Skirmishes and perhaps even organized campaigns/large scale raids into the NCR from the Mojave (or Vice versa) would see both parties bleeding through the centuries as even an angry NCR wouldn’t be able to take back the Mojave (every attempt to do so would just end up as another guerrilla war with the Legion, which they already lost to when the Legion had far less resources). After years of stalemate and several emperors very little territory will have changed hands, and both sides would find themselves in a Cold War. The Legion and NCR would both race to expand into new lands at their borders north and south in order to try and gain an advantage, destined forever to battle each other as they divide America, but with neither side really gaining a decisive enough advantage to completely annihilate the other.
This is very unlikely to be the case. The legion winning is probably the worse thing they could do. The NCR in New Vegas is playing around not taking the issue seriously, nobody wants to be there and nobody wants to stay there without progress. If the legion takes the Mojave how long till the full might of the proffesional NCR army arrives? Because they've been mainly fighting recruits
The Legion would take most of Nevada and parts of western California but would struggle with taking it all. It would have to wait and buy time before it can regain the Strength necessary to move forward. The Legion won’t get greedy and fight a war it cannot win, but will still be angered that the NCR has not been conquered. Ultimately it will lead to a stalemate, with wars continuing to be fought, with honestly no real end in sight.
I'm watching this while trying to launch the game because my xbox 360 turns off every time I try to load the game. It usually takes about 5 minutes to start
I think you're underplaying a bit the part the Frumentarii would play in the NCR territories. No doubt that the Legion has already planted Frumentarii in California well before the invasion of the Mojave. Keep in mind that Frumentarii were instrumental in the fall of the Mojave, not just the Legion's numbers and tactics. >Frumentarii were responsible for Nipton, which completely broke the enemy when their morale was already in question. >Frumentarii kept the Legion aware of troop movements and positions. >Frumentarii sabotaged multiple points of escape and reinforcement that the NCR would have used when the Legion invaded. They wouldn't just report on the effectiveness of the forts and the Legion would just march through. The Legion would play this smart, and with as little casualties as possible until they reach the Hub. Remember they aren't just spies, but saboteurs and assassins. They had no response to Frumentarii in the Mojave because it was downplayed so much. The fall of the Mojave might make them keener, but I don't think they'd be able to filter out Frumentarii effectively, especially if Caeser already had them planted in California since the Mojave invasion. Though even if not, with the pour of refugees from the Mojave, it would be all too easy to sneak in Frumentarii into California in that chaos. I think the success of either looting or occupying The Hub will depend on whether or not the Legion's Frumentarii there are effective. So far, they've been shown as nothing but effective.
That's assuming that Caesar would not get killed by his tumor. Because the frumentarii would either get butchered by Lanius who makes it clear that he despises them or manage to go into hiding until Lanius is far enough into NCR territory so that they can take over the East.
@@thebandofbastards4934 I think Caesar would have the means. He already knows he needs the specs for his AutoDoc and he knows the location of it. All it takes is retrieving it, albeit probably at the cost of a few dozen legionaires from rad posioning.
@@resolutionblaze363 It's more about him doing it on time as he avoids letting out any mention about the tumor in order to not look weak and that it would be more likely that it would be too late for him before he adresses the problem as it can be seen as he didn't find a medical professional during his stay in the East. Also it's the Courier that suggests to use the auto-doc as if Caesar tried to talk about it openly it would disturb his position, that's why the courier is sent without any help despite it being of a major importance for the Legion. So that the whole thing would be on a low profile in order to not rise controversy among the ranks.
I think you failed to consider the large amount of NCR who would either desert the military out of fear, or actually defect to the Legion. Even Cass mentions she’s concerned about NCR based caravans trading with the Legion in their territory out East so there’s already people within the NCR selling weapons, and other supplies to the Legion. It would be a lot more muddled than a straight-up military conflict. It would be a total conflict of both military force, and political ideology amongst the population. If the Frumentari were to infiltrate the NCR Political system they could weaken it even further, and even trigger an NCR Civil War.
That would be a very difficult chunk of propagandizing for them to accomplish though. In Machiavelli’s the prince, the peoples of a free nation are the most difficult for a king to control because even the grandchildren will remember freedom. And for historical context Rome was incredibly anti-royalty and Julius was a dictator for life, but not a king and had a very cold reception to a “joke” about being a king. Similarly Augustus had to call himself the first citizen because he knew he would find himself at the wrong end of an angry mob of free peoples if he called himself king. And this was the dance they had to do as fellow denizens of Rome. A foreign power being invited in and allowed even the slightest governance? And one that is a despotic slaver who is the very antithesis to everything they hold sacred? The political side of things would take centuries to convert without a frumentari being laughed off the political podium, if not taken out by an angry mob.
What do you mean if... With people like Capt Curtis showing how deep they go, i doubt there is a possibility that the legion hasn't already infiltrated NCR proper before the courier even gets involved.
@@adeptusfantasticus Curtis was a plant though. He started as a Trooper and got promoted up the ladder to Captain. Caesar even bitches about how difficult it was and how long it took to get Curtis to that point when you meet him if you killed Curtis beforehand.
@@youraveragescotsman7119 yeah I know, I was pointing out there is no if when it comes to infiltration, they don't just have frumentarii as aids to important people, they've been imbedding folk for years, even influencing senators with helpful propaganda about the waste of resources the Mojave campaign is
@@adeptusfantasticus I don't think there's every been anything said about Legion spies in mainland NCR. Like, the Mojave was already an unpopular campaign and the NCR was already planning on downsizing the resources they spent on it. This had nothing to do with the Legion and everything to do with Brahmin Barons being corrupt and bribing the NCR to start wars for them in other areas like the Baja.
You need more views/ subscribers this channel offers really good "what if" fallout scenarios and I imagine (if you're up to it) good scenarios on other games in the future, I'm so happy I stumbled across your video essays keep up the great work I'm excited for the next video.
If the Legion tried to invade, I think the NCR would do what Russia has done in the past by going scorched earth mode and falling back deeper into their territory until the legion forces were in too deep and are cut off from the rest of their forces and supply lines. I think the best option for the Legion would be to invade NCR territory and score a victory at a major city (like the Hub) that would show the NCR citizens that they are not safe from the Legion, they can attack whenever they feel like it and cannot be stopped. The legion could potentially use this as leverage to bring the NCR to the bargaining table and use diplomacy (under the threat of more violence) to force the NCR into submission. This is what Robert E Lee wanted to accomplish by invading the North during the Civil War and had the battle of gettysburg gone differently, he may have succeeded
The problem with such an approach is that, unlike Germany or the Confederates, the Legion isn't relatively tiny or an under-dog and doesn't have to quickly conquer and look for a snowball effect or diplomatic status quo. Tech is a disadvantage - yes, but their strategy was to steadily and methodically grind-down their opponent on multiple, well thought out levels. Devious, brutal and effective. The NCR would be unable to dictate the pace and direction, when the enemy lacks motivation/need to fall for this tactic. Legion's leaders aren't brain-dead or bogged down by corruption like the NCR is. There'd be no incentive for the Legion to leverage peace, when they've been the aggressor, inclined towards total war. And successful at it. At the end of New Vegas' hypothetical Legion victory the score is already 2:1, NCR is already in a bad way, possibly looking at a 3rd strike so to speak. In my opinion the war would grind to a halt, with minor skirmishes and negligible slivers of land changing hands after NV. That is, until another big push eventually comes, a few years down the line. Whomsoever recovers faster and strikes successfully would be the decisive factor. The scales are already tipped in favor of the Legion. NCR is already completely inept, to the point of relying on the existence of a random heroic courier to epicly and dramatically untangle and fix the disastrous, mismanaged mess they've dug themselves into. In a scenario where the Hub falls, NCR no longer has any water, economy, external trade, power projection or chance to recover for more rounds. The NCR is suffering from all the problems of modern society, a few created on their own, on top of life after the Apocalypse. The political and societal devastation would no doubt cripple them even further. Wouldn't be too far fetched to consider an eventual fracturing, especially since they're sharing a direct border with the subversive Legion. There's no more buffers, "all hits" are direct and eating away at their ability to respond. The NCR isn't the USSR, there's no endless territory, no cohesive ideology, no singular rule to direct them or even that much production to be saved/transferred over their proverbial Urals - the Mojave.
@@countschnitzel8903 hear me out the ncr is industrialized unlike the legion is strong yes but Caesar will most likely die the legate is not as smart as Caesar he will lose because chief Hanlon will once be allowed control over the NCR forces allowing for more creative tactics which devastated the legion let's also not forget the legion are weak to long range which California being large open field spells disaster for the legion unless Caesar lives as he understands the need for technology most likely giving them the edge let's also forget the NCR better supply lines vs the legion and yet there were bog down the legion will be like the germans on the eastern front fighting mini stalingrad's and leinngrad's and literally almost lost the war for Denver's now let's see how California goes
@@erickrasniewski567 Chief Hanlon is already a shadow of his former self and heavily depressed, and this is also largely depending on him not being killed by the Legion since in their endings they crucify or quickly behead him.
@@countschnitzel8903 they don't get past the long 15. Here's why. There's a reason the legion resorted to guerilla warfare, they can't fight hand to hand. So they infiltrate and do all sorts of espionage, that was when the NCR had holes in their lines. The small long 15 is not the Mojave, it's a strip of land fully in NCR control, the main heartland if you will. The very second the Mojave falls that place becomes a fortress. Trenches, bunkers, barbed wire, you name it they'll set it up. The NCR just got kicked in the nuts and will not be loosing another inch of ground. So every single person that passes through is being investigated. Not to mention the massive witch hunt back home to root out legion spies. But theres more the legion can't go around , they can try to go through the divide. They'll get torn to shreds by all manner of stuff. They can go through the rest of Nevada, untamed land that needs taming. There's two options and both are just as bad, rush the machine gun nests or waste even more of your manpower on a conquest bound to bring you closer to death. The NCR has plenty of energy for multiple rounds it's just whether or not they care to try. The NCR in New Vegas is arm wrestling with a toddler using their thumb, use more than just one finger that becomes a different story.
It is often claimed that Caesar does have a mind for logistics, it is doubtful he would be drawn into a campaign that he cannot finish. As for the point of his myth dying, I think that if his myth managed to survive the first battle of Hoover dam, it will survive a return to the Mojave after a major victory. Especially one that causes a currency crisis which leads to more anti NCR sentiment. Still, Caesar has shaken up NCR politics, the reactionary president Kimball is dead, and his party has been removed from power due to the humiliating defeat in the campaign they started, as per House's predictions. A more competent government would rise to power, supported by those that initially opposed military action in the east due to the very real sense of danger the Legion poses to the core lands of the NCR. They would be able to mobilize the full power of the NCR to stop the legion in it's tracks. It is likely that despite some initial back and forth clashes it results in a stalemate at the very defensible choke point that is the Mojave outpost-long 15 base stretch.
Though I be an NCR supporter, they would have certainly lost the Dam without the Courier. In terms of strategic planning, Caesar can be installed in Shady Sands provided the Legion takes the Long 15 immediately after taking the Dam and then builds for another 10 years. Caesar Edward Sallow, having been a Follower of the Apocalypse, would have read enough about logistics that he would have the supplies needed to take The Hub and sweep north the Shady Sands. Additionally, he knows enough about his own youth that he will avoid actions which would anger Arroyo and bring out the wrath of the Chosen One (if you choose the youngest possible, the CO is only one year older) Addendum: Per canon, the Chosen one is 20 in FO2, and is therefore only 5 years older than Caesar.
were i the NCR in this case: -use any rangers to stall them for as long as possible in a fighting retreat slowing their advance down the long 15 -rely on vertibirds to drop small groups of skirmishing units along caesar's supply line -draw in as many troops from elsewhere in the republic as possible, hopefully many will reach the front thanks to the initial stalling tactics -a propaganda campaign designed to work out the issues within the army's morale, this time they are fighting for THEIR homes, not the Mojave. -attempt to appease any groups such as the BoS and perhaps even limited co-operation against a common foe -make The Hub Stalingrad 2.0 for Caesar's forces. -The most elite rangers and irregular forces to serve as assassins of high value targets. - Scorched earth! - an attempt to reshuffle the government into a wartime one (think Britain from 1939 to 1941) it's entirely possible in my opinion that the Mojave could be seen as the fall of the Philippines to Japan in our own timeline, something that was inevitable, but becomes a lesson to learn from, a change in attitude could then occur among the general population instilling in them a defiance of the enemy (after all who wants to be a slave or on a cross?) not all the things i've listed here might be possible, just thought it'd be a fun thought process.
After taking over the Hub, I believe that with the Courier’s assistance (heavy involvement, lots of quests), as well as infiltration by the Frumentarii, the Legion would likely be able to take at least one other state of the NCR. It’d be very difficult but not impossible. A pyrrhic victory of course, but a victory nonetheless. At this point Caesar would realize that conquering the rest would be almost impossible. I should point out that BoS is also at war with the NCR, leaving the NCR fighting two major factions at once. Note that in the event of the Boomers being successfully assimilated, the Legion could also utilize their weapons to devastate NCR territory. Also I think that we shouldn’t underestimate the Courier’s ability to significantly impact the outcome of the war and inflict heavy damage on the NCR all by himself. That being said, there is a possibility of victory for the Legion, but not without sacrifice.
I feel like they could take and hold it for maybe a year or two, but then the NCRs tech advantage would be too large. Combined arms tactics with chemical and tactical nuclear weapons would be the end for the Legion if they try to punch into the NCR.
But can they do that while handling problems at home? There’s a vault quest where an NCR scientist tells you he needs the mutated vegetation to try and find a way to handle an upcoming food shortage. Combine that with drained lakes and a crippled economy from the NCR-BoS War and you have a bad mix for the Republic. Combine that with another comment here mentioning where will all the criminals, raiders, and dangerous beasts go to get away from an advancing legion and...
They won't be able to go further then the Mojave Outpost without god suddenly smiting everything. The legion is funneling down a small chokepoint that the NCR is going to supply the crap out of. They could go around through Nevada, but we don't know what the rest of the state looks like and those supply issues will just get worse. The small place with the statue becomes a little slice of ww1 as trenches and barbed wire fences are made as machine guns and artillery rains down on anyone advancing towards them.
@@albar428This is really wrong, in terms of tech, The Legion are also proficient in weilding plasma and laser guns and Centurions even use Thermic Lances. The Legion isn't against the use of tech; They are against the overreliance of it.
@Boxtupos What percentage of the legion are allowed to use energy weapons? Overreliance on tech is not objective. From the reference of the NCR, someone like the BOS is overreliant on tech. If the BOS ballooned in size to that of the NCR, though, they wouldn't be overreliant.
The Legion only needs to deny the NCR the wealth that the hub generates. A seige of sorts would do this and allow the rest of the Legion forces to raid caravans and other nearby settlements for supplies.
I think it's also important to note that if Caesar lives but is not cured, he would continue to deteriorate mentally, possibly developing amnesia or falling into fits. To the legionaries surrounding him, their God would essentially be falling into madness becoming more and more incoherent. That could have a devastating effect all on it's own and spark a severe leadership and religious crisis in the Legion, because as it is, the Legion is entirely based on a cult of personality. Caesar being alive (without courier intervention) would be worse than Caesar being dead. And Caesar being dead would be the end of the Legion. Essentially, the Legion is doomed either way, and so is their invasion.
@@jager2749Rome, especially during the Empire, had emperors who passed away naturally or were assassinated, and persisted for a thousand years. Just because you have a great leader die, even without a successor, does not mean the whole empire begins to immediately collapse, though it might contribute to it. People obsessively compare real history to Fallout to predict the future, but ignore this point.
@@IanB3rry The issue is that Fallout demonstrates very quickly that the people who hold the levers of power aren’t really the best for the long term survival of the legion. That’s the issue.
I don't think the Courier is the only person that could operate on Caesar or fix an autodoc, especially after they take over New Vegas. Enslave a Follower of the Apocalypse, for example.
@@crenfick7750 there's a reason why the Courier is tasked with this in the game. Caesar *can't* reach out to his followers and reveal his vulnerability because it would put his cult of personality and the rejection of technology into question and risk internal instability. He's also just paranoid, worsened by his condition. There's no way he can trust an enslaved Follower to do the operation. The Courier, as an aligned outsider who is free from these influences and concerns, was Caesar's solution to this problem. The problem is time. Caesar doesn't have the time remaining to finish the conquest of New Vegas, nor is it a sure thing that he could achieve it at all. It's only through the unique position of the Courier and his actions, that they manage to do it that quickly in the game. He's in a doomed if you do, doomed if you don't kind of situation of his own design.
I'd really like to see a shooter game (no, I don't want Fallout to become a shooter, it'd be a stand-alone) about the battle of the Hub and the campaign on the Long 15. I mean, it'd be the Stalingrad of the Fallout universe and probably the largest military engagement on the continent since the Alaskan campaign.
If the Legion wins and pushes along the long 15 considering how demoralized the NCR is in the Mojave and with the Legions moral being higher than ever topped already with the fanatical loyalty. These two factors would make the Legions march west far easier with the NCR if not part of a strategic move to quickly fall back west, or as a desperate attempt to survive may abandon meany strong points along the Long 15 in favor of perhaps trying to hold the Legion at its oping into California. Though Caesar may send his agents west with the refugees to weaken the NCR's defenses, something i could see happening would be the spreading of Caesars legend, about how a man left the NCR conquered a grate empire and now has come back to save his home land. This along with grievances with the NCR's corruption and taxation the prospect of more autonomous settlements giving tribute in times of need vs an annual tax may cause settlements and people to help the Legion when they arrive. Personally i feel that once the Legion takes the HUB they wont be able to move further beyond small scale raiding though the NCR would be in a far worse condition with the nations economic hub gone, large numbers of men being drafted to hold back the Legion and with the war now being fought in their homeland the NCR would be facing an economic collapse as the government in Shady sands would have to print more money to pay all its new soldiers and with confidence in the government falling in the eyes of the common wast-lander. Pulse a possible resurgence in the activity of raider gangs on what would be largely undefended settlements far from the front along with the lose of a major city on the road south. This could easily split the NCR in two with the government and some of the army in the north but a largely heavy handed military controlled south if the NCR couldn't retake the HUB and push the Legion out of California long term the NCR would fall due down to its internal instability all the Legion would have to do is hold its ground and clean up what ever smaller states emerge out of the NCR. Though if the Legion pushed beyond the HUB to try and take Shady Sands or the Bone Yard then their forces would be worn down and destroyed. I dont see the NCR pulling a Bolder City and leveling it to stop the Legion would do more damage to the NCR then the Legion. If Caesar where to take the HUB then salt the earth as he returns to the Mojave he would have to launch large raids on all other major settlements in order to prove that this wasn't just a one off with other raids to follow to keep the NCR on the defensive.
I feel that if the legion were to go to conquer the NCR, it would not be all at once, but rather over the course of decades, taking the one piece at a time, the NCR loosing more, while the legion is able to recover faster each time.
I think you are overestimating the strength and stability of the NCR. It is stated many times throughout New Vegas, even by Caesar, that the NCR is in a very unstable state. The common people are fed up with all the corruption from the Stockmen's Association (the shadow government of the NCR). The NCR desperately needed to conquer Vegas to boost the morale of the nation and Kimball had promised to deliver on this. If the Legion wins, it would be the biggest catastrophy the NCR ever faced. It could easily end with a revolution against the NCR government by regular citizens, the Legion could just watch them tear themselves apart.
I would agree IF the Legion wasn't at the NCRs doorstep and didn't assassinate Kimball. Mr. House was right. The NCR would be bolstered by their defeat at Hoover Dam and the death of their president, not demoralized. Kimball would become the "martyr of hoover dam". And that's just the start. Political squabbles at home would quite down once Legionaries started sacking NCR towns, killing men, enslaving children, and raping women. The blunt, absolute brutality that built Caesar's empire through assimilating tribes would backfire horrifically against the NRC. By trying to terrorize people into submission, he'd make enemies with the public, and be dealing with near-endless guerilla warfare and partisans. Rather than coming across like a god, as he did to the eastern tribes, Caesar would be a viewed a demon leading an army of monsters.
Also, the NCR Mojave campaign is unfocused and hampered by politics and incompetence. They weren't giving their all to conquer New Vegas. However, an existential threat like a Legion invasion on California itself would be the needed kick in the pants Cass wanted for NCR all along. Their response would be swifter than what the NCR had been doing in the game all along. What awaits the Legion after victory at Hoover Dam is a bigger war. And war never changes.
Pretty much my thinking too. The Mojave isn't the NCR's biggest priority, but if the Legion invades the Mojave, the NCR could easily get organized and take it back. The NCR has by far the most advanced economy that we know of in America. If the Mojave is the frontier, then the cities in California are probably like the east coast of the US in the 19th century with factories and lots of folks to conscript if needed.
Overall I dont think the Legion would win in an invasion of the NCR. The reason they could win in the Mojave Wasteland is that they depend on the NCR forces being spread too thin and the troops are demoralized. That is reserved for that region as opposed to back home where they totally have the advantage. There everyone feels the immediate threat of the Legion and are defending their literal homes as opposed to some far away land that isn't theirs. They don't gotta worry about reinforcements nor supply lines. Most importantly of all is that Caesar would most likely die due to that brain tumor and the Legion will crumble without him as there is nobody to replace him. They already had a plan for Hoover Dam which is why Lanius could replace Caesar but in a bigger invasion they would be screwed as Lanius isnt a good strategist
I would argue that the advantage would be as severe as you let on. I would say that the NCR would still be demoralized after the defeat. People back home don’t want to keep fighting and most in the Army literally contemplate suicide if the Legion comes or just desert the army. Also, speaking of defending their homes, I don’t think they would. Most people in the NCR don’t view themselves as being part of the NCR. They actually dislike/hate being part of the NCR. They don’t want to be a part of the NCR but couldn’t do anything since they were just forcibly taken in without proper assimilation. I would say they would still have some trouble because their supply lines aren’t exactly secure. Gangs or just the local wildlife could prove detrimental to them since of the NCR having lots of gangs in their Hub and not having gotten rid of the dangerous wildlife. Caesar could still live since they would have the Followers of the Apocalypse captured. If he still had a tumor in his head, he could just have one of the doctors they treat him so they aren’t crucified. Even if he does die, they would still have Lanius. Which brings me to why I left a comment. Lanius is an amazing strategist and commander. Everyone in the Legion says as much. Even Vulpes himself. I would say that as soon as the Legion takes the Dam, the NCR is screwed.
@@roderick04 when I said the NCR citizens would defend their homes I didnt mean the NCR as the nation. I meant their actual homes, they wouldn't want an army of raiders coming in and destroying everything. And as I stated before fighting a demoralizing war far away vs fighting in your own backyard are two different things. So Im sure resistance would be very strong especially from the states like The Hub who wanna defend themselves before everyone else. Basically the Legion would have to fight each state one at a time and would heavily struggle as they now wear the shoes of the NCR in that they are spread thin in enemy territory. And in all of the endings for the Legion its only ever the Courier who heals Caesar. When it comes to the Followers of the Apocalypse he either has them killed or allows them to flee westward and so during all of this he still has the tumor.
@@BobPantsSpongeSquare97 The Legion doesn’t destroy everything. They actually would rather spare towns if given the chance. Also, I’m not sure towns would fight back. If they don’t know what they’re fighting for and who they’re fighting against is like and they don’t want o be apart of the NCR, Why would they fight back? A resistance maybe could happen but it would be quickly put down since of how well the Legion is at assimilating people. Punishments are severe. Also if the Courier wasn’t there, which he’s not in this scenario, Caesar would still have the brain tumor. He let them go because he didn’t have a tumor. If he did in this scenario then he wouldn’t be so willing to just let them go or kill them. None of this even matters sense the NCR would crumble or at best be severely handicapped when they lose Hoover Dam.
@@roderick04 losing hoover dam would be very temporary due to lots of troopers flooding from ranger stations and camps to fight, and the legion would be severely injured just by the battle so when reinforcements come upon them. They will be cleared out before even getting to camp searchlight
The wisdom of Caesar is that even if the Legion loses, it wins. The point will be made. This is just my own conjecture (one of the privileges of being a frumentarius).
Honestly, even in a war with perfect infrastructure, the immense manpower and technological and industrial (most importantly) of the NCR would prove superior. Should they push far enough, he would be overwhelmed
@Indoctrinated Truth honestly, I've seen enough rebuttals to this argument F.e. it is impossible for the current us gov't to do that, so it is logical to assume the ncr can't do that to the surviving lakes
Here are some constructive criticism I have of this. Legion victory over the dam is guaranteed. However his victory over the Mojave wont happen overnight. It would take months, possibly even years for the Legion to have full dominance over the Mojave Region. They have Fiends, Boomers, local settlements, House and even the Brotherhood to conquer first before controlling the Mojave. Caesar is used to conquering uneducated tribes in the east, however you can argue that he has not fought against well armed and well educated factions such as the BoS, or House. He did fight a well armed and organized NCR, but was nearly wiped out and only prevailed through the incompetence of Oliver. Assuming Chief Hanlon survived, same as Hsu, months or even a year would give them ample time to prepare for an invasion. Let's not forget that Lanius regarded Hanlon as a brilliant strategist, and attacking the Outpost would be extremely tough, especially after being dug in. You can argue that NCR would have to deal with refugees fleeing to to the Mojave, which is a very good point and an advantage for the Legion. But this assumes that this advantage can be taken advantage of while it happened, the Mojave would still take possibly YEARs before being fully under the thumb of Caesar, if he is still alive. Giving NCR time to filter the refugees through, or simply turn them away. Overall, your opinion of how the results turn out is fair. However it kind of falls flat when you include how long and hard it would be for Caesar to conquer the entire Mojave, I never liked the ending credits of Fallout cause it always made it sound like the Caesar wipes these Mojave factions out in one fatal swoop. Which would be extremely unlikely unless the ending credits assumed the courier did all that or helped, which is more believe. But without a courier, taking out these factions would take years. Those years are valuable to Hanlon to fortify the I-15 or the Outpost. Knowing how brilliant of the tactician he is, he can pull of a successful defense against the legion. At which point, all NCR has to do is wait for the Caesar to die. I also hold the opinion that the Caesar would likely still die in the conquest of the Mojave. I don't think he would seek medical treatment until his dream of having it all came true, he had plenty of opportunities to kidnap a Follower or someone who can repair the auto-doc but never did. Assuming it would take years to conquer the Mojave, Caesar would likely not survive it.
Ultimately I cannot see any ending except an independent/House Mojave. Both the Legion and the NCR are overstretched and too ambitious. They both have far too many weaknesses to continue to push. Additionally, they both have geography against them. The Legion is in a strong defensive position with a massive river and lake border, plus cliffs to make any advances into Legion territory hard. Problem is, that this also makes projecting force difficult. It would be easy to out maneuver Caesar's armies to cut off supplies by attacking the Dam, and any alternative crossings they may have. Meanwhile, the NCR has to make their way through narrow mountain passes to get to the Mojave. We already see how they cannot properly hold the land they claim to own. The Families are organized and influential enough that they could easily sway the rest of the Mojave. Uprisings would be frequent, and eventually the people of the Mojave would end up free, one way or another.
Not to mention that house has an army that doesn't need to eat, sleep, fear disease, they can also not be hindered by darkness of night, and they are self repairing
I’m pretty sure it’s the opposite. I think the ones in Fallout 4 are the “base model” and the ones the Enclave used in Fallout 3, and included in New Vegas are the “gunship Model” Vertibird. You can clearly tell one was made for transport, and one was made for combat/rapid transport.
Umm, no? Those are Enclave vertibirds taken from the Washington Enclave, and they use the same type as the Enclave in Fallout 2, and NCR uses the Enclave vertibirds as well. They are the same.
Hopefully if there is a sequel to New Vegas, it'll use the ending where Lanius decides to head back to the east to strengthen his forces, I'd love to see how the legion is affected under Lanius's rule, it'd also be kind of cool if they used the ending where Mr. House is just disabled in his pod, as a little secret for the player to find
I have always been a firm believer that under Lanius the Legion would fracture, the 86 tribes were united by Caesar's cult of personality, without it, theyd split.
@@admiralhackett7686 They'd definitely fracture if Lanius tried invading California. But I'm sure that if Lanius didn't assault Hoover Dam and went back to the east, the tribes wouldn't dare split under the watchful gaze of the Monster of the East. If he smells weakness in a tribe, then there'd only be *85* tribes united by Caesar's cult of personality. Which is why it'd be cool to see a legion reformed from years of being ruled by the Legate. It's been hinted that there's more to Lanius than the stories about him. Maybe he's a lot smarter than we thought. Maybe he'll actually give his army fucking shields to provide some defense against bullets. There are a lot of interesting things that can happen if he goes back east.
@@admiralhackett7686 That would largely depend on a few factors. If Lanius and/or the Praetorians played it out right, they could easily make it seem like Caesar had become a god, and use that faith in the deified Caesar to rally their society around, much like Augustus did in our own world to gain popular support. I suppose it also depends on how strongly the tribes remember their own identities outside being a tribe conquered by the Legion, the earlier ones are likely extinct, but the more recent ones like the one out of Denver? They might still have a few who remember the before times.
Lanius is more of a commander, he's not the type of person that leads, he's the one that gives orders I see the legion making a council and electing a new "emperor" that can and also wants to fulfill Caesar's vision for the legion The legion sure is interesting and I wish they had more content in the game
Actually, on a Legion playthrough, it's heavily implied that the Courier will be the next Emperor/Empress because of a single action by Ceasar - the minting of a new coin in the Courier's likeness. In ancient Rome, To Be, as well as current Emperors would often have their likeness minted on a coin.
somewhat relevant to the video, but I think there's quite a few things that people have been overlooking when analyzing the factions in NV, so I'm gonna list them out here 1. People really seem to be falling into the trap of just, taking characters like Ceaser and Lanius' word for everything they say when well, they're Characters, not the voice of the devs. like obviously the Legion are gonna call the NCR a dying empire because that's what they want to believe, Thats how they justify their crusade against the NCR, because they have this misguided idea that its 'inevitable' that the NCR will fall and that it's their god given duty to make sure that happens, when its just plain and simply not. when talking to pretty much any other character outside of the Legion, there's no real indication that the NCR as a whole is in any state of significant decline. sure, the Mojave campaign isn't going very well, but thats JUST the Mojave campaign. 2. there also seems to be this idea that the NCR NEEDS Hoover dam, Helios One and the Mojave as a whole in the same way that Mr House or Yes Man or even The Legion need the mojave. which again isn't true. remember, for the majority of NCR history, they have existed WITHOUT control of the Mojave, and while it is certainly a very valuable resource to them, they dont rely upon it to survive as a nation, hell thats one the biggest major issues (morally, anyway) with the NCR! that they're trying to take the Mojave because they WANT it, not because they NEED it. House and Yes Man can't sustain themselves without the Mojave for, well, very obvious reasons. And the Legion, while not needing the Mojave *specifically,* do need to conquer somewhere, as their entire civilisation is based upon conquering and capturing new slaves, and so long as Ceaser and Lanius' Ego keep them fixated on the west, they Legion will likely bash their head against the brick wall of the west until they die, before they cut their losses and try to expand North, East or South. 3. Ceaser's Legion has more or less put all of their eggs in the basket of the Mojave, while the NCR still has a VERY large military force in California. obviously the ENTIRE Legion army isn't in the Mojave, but the vast majority of it is. while one of the largest contributing factors the NCR's difficulties in the Mojave, is that not ENOUGH of the military back home has been assigned to the Mojave. take Colonel Hsu (I think it was him, anyway) complaining about how most of the NCR Heavy troopers are "back home protecting brahmin baron's property" instead of being assigned to the frontlines of the conflict. and given the Legion aren't exactly rolling over the undersupplied, undermanned expeditionary force of the Mojave, I highly doubt they would fair very well against a Properly supplied, full force NCR Military. 4. that the NCR's lack of Morale in the Mojave would translate into a broken spirit fighting in the actual NCR territory. keep in the mind the main reason NCR morale among the soldiers is so low in the Mojave, is that they could be the victim of a horrific atrocity protecting people and land that they really couldn't give a rat's ass about, but if the fighting took place in California itself, the Legion's tendency to commit atrocious war crimes would likely only serve to Galvanize the People and Soldiers of the NCR against the Legion, ironically strengthening their resolve to push them OUT of California, you only need to look at the result of German Atrocities in places like Greece, Yugoslavia, Poland and the USSR during WW2 to see that the result would be nothing but more intense and vitriolic fighting, and considering the NCR military is generally far better equipped than the Legion, this would likely lead to very heavy Legion casualties, with very little to show for it, not to mention that if even if they did somehow win, there would likely be VERY heavy resistance to Legion rule.
I don't think from a lore standpoint the legion could shoot down a vertibird. In game it takes about 10 seconds of sustained fire from a minigun to destroy one. Since only the higher ranked legionarres use weapons like 12.7 sub machine guns and combat rifles, i think the best they could do is shoot it enough to make it retreat, but it would only come back repaired in a later battle with better armor(right now in real life there is already armor for helicopters that can be effective vs 7.62 full metal jacket and the armor would of gotten a lot better until 2077.) Also if you recruit the remnants to either side, they come in on a vertibird, and theres no doubt they were being shot at the whole time from whatever side they were fighting.
They don't necessarily have to attack the Hub outright to gain control of it. Hear me out. The NCR would be expecting the Legion to attack the Hub, so they would station most of their soldiers in and around the Hub, leaving outlying areas like Junktown, which is already less defendable, even more undefended with less troops, so instead of going South towards the Hub, Lanius' army could simply just go North and sack Junktown instead, allowing for a much more one sided fight, and paving the way for the Legion to blitz their way to the Boneyard, which, once sacked, or at the very least surrounded, would simultaneously cut off the Hub (and a third of NCR territory) from the core states that likely supply the area with food while cutting off Shady Sands and the Northern territories from the crucial water trade in the Hub. Now all the Legion would need to do at this point is just wait for all the soldiers in the South to starve to death and the people of the Hub would have no way to resist, or they, too would starve. While it may seem like a stretch to say that the Legion could not only take the Boneyard but also occupy basically the entire I-15, let me first say that the battle for the Boneyard could likely be made much easier for the Legion if their frunentarii simultaneously caused the gangs in the Hub to revolt, like Yaboii talked about, which probably wouldn't be powerful enough to take the city outright, but would still undoubtedly be enough of a distraction to occupy the large amount of soldiers sent to protect the Hub from counter-attacking the Legion at the Boneyard, which itself would likely be severely underprotected due to the NCR sending the bulk of its forces to the front lines. Secondly, the Legion is much more suited for attacking locations rather than defending them. Both Caesar and Lanius know this, so I think that instead of occupying and defending fixed locations, the Legion would mobilize the bulk of their forces to patrol the I-15 against supply caravans and soldiers. Once the Legion starves out and occupies all the Major towns South of the I-15, the NCR would be extremely hesitant to attack any of them outright, fearing that the Legion would just start executing civilians (and probably rightly so.) Instead, the NCR would likely try to implement more subtle tactics, such as supporting a civilian revolt in places like the Hub or the Boneyard, but with the bulk of their Rangers having died in the Mojave, the NCR would be hard pressed to find enough skilled people to accomplish such a task. Edit: To cap off this essay on a fictional war in a fictional universe, I think that at this point the Legion's best option would be to continue dividing and conquering by opening up a second theatre to cut off the northern NCR from Shady Sands. This could best be accomplished if the Legion first (and likely before their initial invasion of the NCR) expanded their Northern territory right up to the NCR's Northern frontier towns of Vault City and New Reno, probably requiring them to annihilate the White Legs, the 80's, and possibly some Vipers and Khans as well, but would ultimately allow the Legion to spring an attack on New Reno, likely with the help of one or more of the families that control the city (like they did in New Vegas with the Omertas & White Gloves). It may not seem all that believable that the Legion could amass a second army while Lanius is carving up Southern California, but since the Legion already has plans to expand North, evident by Ulysses' interaction with the White Legs, we can assume that the Legion has at least a small force near Zion itself, and could likely draw in more within the Legion to absorb the 80's and the other aforementioned tribes, the new recruits from which, combined with the help of one or more of the families that control the New Reno would likely be enough to shift the balance of power in the Legion's favor. Once the Legion takes New Reno, it would probably be a similar plan to the other Army's in the South: Rush to the Coast to cut off a third of the NCR from the core states. An additional benefit for the Legion in the North would be the large amount of tribals in and around Arroyo, which, once assimilated, would only add to their ranks. So before we get into the Legion's strategy for ending the war, as well as the NCR, let's take this time to do a little re-cap: In the South, Legate Lanius' main army has sacked Junktown and the Boneyard, simultaneously cutting off the supply lines to and from all Southern NCR States such as the Hub, Dayglow, and free Baja, all of which would inevitably fall under his control after enough of the soldiers and civilians starve out and give in to Legion rule. In the North, the Legion was able to quickly overrun the city of New Reno by convincing one or more of the families there to stage a surprise attack within the city, causing chaos among the ranks of the soldiers stationed there, allowing the Legion to swoop in and take control. Once the Legion took control of New Reno, their army in the North made a mad dash towards the Coast (probably Navarro or some other defensible location) to cut off the trade routes to and from the NCR's Northern settlements, namely Vault City, Redding, Modoc, Klamath and Arroyo. Addition, while the Legion's army in the North was bidding their time annihilating caravans along the I-80, they were also able to make quick work of the many tribes near Arroyo, which had been slowly softened down by the NCR's way of life, and were nothing compared to the tribals that the Legion consumed in Arizona and beyond. I'd also like to take this time to address some of the other Major factions in California that could have an impact on the war, namely the Shi and the Brotherhood of Steel. First, I believe the Brotherhood would in all likelihood remain in hiding, fearful of both the NCR and the Legion after losing most of their army to the NCR years prior. Secondly, I believe the Shi would largely stay within the confines of San Francisco, but could potentially be swayed either by the Legion's Frunentarii who would give them false promises of renewed glory as soldiers in the Legion, in an attempt to use them in battle against the NCR much like they did with the Great Khans in the Mojave, or alternatively, they could be approached by NCR ambassadors who would try to forge an alliance, possibly with some kind of generous post-war economic benefits, if they in turn help the NCR supplement the great number of Rangers that they lost in the Mojave with operations that require advanced technology or specialized skills, like with the liberation of towns I talked about earlier, kind of like how the NCR used the Brotherhood in New Vegas, but on a bigger scale. As for who the Shi would ally with in the end (if anybody) I can't answer for certain, but I could definitely see them having a bias against the NCR after years of them trying to annex them, and that coupled with the fact that the Frunentarii would likely use their proud, war-like culture against them like they did with the Khans, I could definitely see them siding with the Legion, but I'm not entirely sure. Anyways, currently in this hypothetical scenario, 2/3rd's of the NCR have been captured by the Legion, and the only thing remaining is their Capitol city of Shady Sands, as well as a handful of minor settlements. At this point, the NCR economy would be in a state of total collapse due to confidence in their fiat currency being basically nothing, as well as most trading companies either submitting to Legion rule or collapsing entirely. This would cause the NCR's already strained logistics to fall apart; do you really think that Shady Sands alone has enough agricultural power to feed all of their citizens as well as the inevitable cascade of refugees, let alone an army big enough to fight the Legion? It's quite clear to me that the NCR would be on the verge of death at this point, and the Legion would be poised to lay siege to the city on all four sides. Even if what's left if their undersupplied army could by some miracle repel the Legion's advance, they would just be delaying the inevitable. And that's why I think that the Legion could, under the most ideal circumstances possible, win against the NCR.
@@mason2012 problem with that is the brotherhood and NCR would be allies because in the legion ending the legion sacked the hidden valley bunker and likely did the same to many other factions like the followers and powder gangers meaning that the legion will have little to no allies in NCR territory once word spreads of what happened in the Mojave and not to mention the legion will be facing the Same challenges the NCR did also taking the Mojave is one thing but holding it is going to be difficult even for the legion
@@lorddeathofmurdermountain76 Well number one, the West Coast Brotherhood is said to be in hiding after their war with the NCR, so they're likely in a similar situation the Mojave Chapter was. Secondly, once the Brotherhood would get word of what the Legion did to their chapter in the Mojave, they wouldn't be filled with rage, if anything they would become even more fearful of the outside World if a pack of technologically stunted savages (in their eyes) could wipe out an entire chapter, which leads me to my third and final point about the BoS, which is that they would never ally with the NCR, considering the fact that the Courier has to jump leaps and bounds to get the two factions to work together even under the most ideal circumstances, (and the NCR still thinks less of you for it anyways.) In all likelihood, the Brotherhood would probably just continue their lockdown and try to avoid both factions, much like the way that McNamara quite literally attempted to outlast the NCR in the Mojave.
@@mason2012 i can't see them going into lockdown maybe relocating further north or probably enter into a cold war with the NCR but would still be considered enemies the brotherhood would likely use guerrilla warfare against the legion they are small but still formidable they would stay under ground(figuritfly and literally) and ambush legion traders and caravans basically they will do everything they can to cripple the legion but they would still have to stay hidden from both NCR and legion the NCR is having trouble standing with a crippled economy and years of war the legion just took the Mojave they are stretched thin but because of their leadership they will be heading into NCR in as little as 6 months after Hoover dam is taken because they believe it's their destiny
the NCR and Enclave Vertibirds are V2 Gunships, the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 uses V1s which are much weaker and V2s are hard to put down so the Brotherhood in Fallout 3 had to make Tesla Cannons to do it better, and V2s can drop mininukes as ordinance and are armed to the teeth with weapons
It's not a stretch to say the legion can win in NV but in the end the courier lanius conversation says it best "NCR's weakness is its size - it'll take your entire army to hold the West." Lanius: "That does not mean we would not succeed." "Eventually - but moving your whole army West means losing the East. You can't hold both." The writing is on the wall and even lanius sees it the west would be the Russia to the legions Germany the west would take up all their resources leaving the east exposed
The best option for the Legion would be to play the long-game, and consolidate their hold over their existing territories post-conquest of the Mojave. Not only would this allow them to take the time to put down inevitable flare-ups of rebellions from slaves and recently conquered tribes that haven't been fully assimilated, but it will also allow the institutional and ecological flaws within the NCR to grow more acute. Between diminishing water supplies, projected food insecurity within ten years, and the monetary issues you already mentioned, the NCR is already facing a number of crises that could severely wound it. If the Legion attacks before this, Caesar would just inadvertently breath new life into the Republic, as he would remind the NCR citizenry of what the likely alternatives are. Wait long enough for the NCR's institutions to crumble due to inability to manage these difficulties, and if the situation gets bad enough, many might prefer the safe tyranny of the Legion to the ineffectual governance of the NCR, allowing the synthesis that Caesar desires. The only problem is that Caesar doesn't really have the time to let that play out, due to his age and illness, and Lanius doesn't have any interest in allowing the Legion to be changed in such a fashion.
I think that the only mistake is to think that there wouldnt be highly fortified military bases between the mojave and the hub that would deny them entry. The NCR was building forts all over the colorado with concreate, if the Caravan Creamsom HQ is anything to go by, the west must be filed with well fortified settlements and outpost to defend from rainders
lmao you mean Crimson Caravan? Not Caravan Creamson... 😂 I do see your point though. I noticed that as well about the location. We already know the NCR was getting concrete from Quarry Junction so they probably have quarries out West somewhere too.
The Mojave outpost is a bottle neck. If utilized correctly the NCR could hold it for a good long while much like Spartans did with Thermopylae. But it would eventually fall to Caesar or his Legion under legate Lanius if he had passed away. Still if done right it could be a costly battle for the Legion.
One analysis I've heard predicted that the NCR, after being forced into total war for its very survival, would become far more militarized and ironically could embrace many of the Legion's warrior ideals.
Kinda disagree on the vertibird comparison. The Vertibirds in the past Fallout games and FO4 are different with the FO4 Vertibird has lesser armaments, using two fixed machine guns and one or two door mounted mini-guns and lack of armor being more like a Utility transport same to a UH-1 while the Vertibird in the past fallouts being much more armed with a gatling laser, side mounted mini-gun, two rocket pods and two racks for mini-nukes and has a thicker hull plating much like the Russian Hind Attack Helicopter
The big thing I feel like you missed is the fact that after losing the battle of the dam the NCR retreat to the Mojave outpost at the border to California. This is an incredibly defensive position which I think would be where the legion would be stopped.
@@poeepee1715 during the final battle of hoover dam while you talking to lanius, one of the 100 speech option would make lanius say that the legion have already move fall too much troop away from the east, anymore and they won't be able to hold it. The only group with enough resistence out east against the legion would be the hangdog
I always wondered what the industrial capacity of the NCR was like by that time. If the NCR is supposed to be analogy to the US, then the Mojave is the frontier which mean the cities in California would be like the east coast of the US in the 19th century. They'd have factories and large populations with an economy that would be fairly advanced. I always assumed that even if the Legion took the Mojave, the NCR could get their entire nation on war footing and bulldoze the Legion back out.
I think that the long 15 would be a slightly larger problem than outlined here. As you kinda hinted at, the sheer amount of water you need to even transport a small group is huge. I think even with Hoover Dam, it would take a LONG time for them to get it and producing enough water to actually send his army (just as is) up the long 15 would take time. The NCR, at the same time, would also be met with an absolutely ferocious response. This isn't New Vegas, where most soldiers simply wanted to go home. This IS their home, and it's important to remember the home field advantage in that sort of situation. I also think even with the spies the Legion would suffer from actual behind the lines issues in the NCR, people who will sabotage and take the risk to hurt the Legion
There's also a larger presence of the Rangers in mainland California, which would make it VERY difficult for the Legion to place spies that don't immediately get curbstomped by Ranger Counter Ops.
You fail to mention that Arizona and California border each other, and Legion forces could also conquet California from the Interstate 10 and the Interstate 40. The Legion forces in the Mohave, are obviously not the only Legion Forces in existence. The Legion obviously and Logically has military garrisons stationed near the border of California and Arizona. Why are you focusing on one Legion Army from the Mohave makes no sense to me from a Military perspective
@@krzysztofkowalski6681 if I run a country and I only have an army of 20,000 men. Do I take all 20,000 or do I take a certain portion when trying to invade somebody else? Obviously I leave a certain portion behind. On top of that, the soldiers who stay behind are usually scattered around in different Military garrisons all over my country. It's this Hollywood mindset people have. They really don't know basic military tactics
If it took the Legion two attempts and four years to conquer Hoover Dam, I imagine it would take multiple attempts and at least a decade before they can conquer the Hub. Continuing to rapidly expand westward is not in the Legion's best interest, although I doubt Caesar would be able to realize that, given his egotistical mindset.
The first attempt to conquer the Dam only failed because Joshua Graham was incompetent, and subsequently lost a large force of veteran legionairries, forcing Caesar to hold back for four years and rebuild his Legion.
@National Christian Front Joshua took the Dam and then walked right into an obvious trap, if that isnt incompetence then what do you call it? He successfully accomplished his mission, then overextended himself directly into Hanlon's hands. The failure of the first assualt on the Mojave is unequivocally Joshua's responsibility.
@National Christian Front ahh yes I have orders to pursue the enemy, so I should definitely blindly send my best troops into a dense un-scouted urban environment.
@National Christian Front the commanders were picked off by snipers, the veteran Legionairies were killed in Boulder. You'd think a person who isnt incompetent would halt his blind advance to regroup when his command structure is in disarray, wouldnt you?
@@Sebomai-b8i if you are on a battlefield and you see all your enemies turn tail and run of course you are going to give chase and try and kill them while they are routing. And even if Graham realized that it was a trap I doubt he would of been able to tell his troops and give orders because all the commanders and high ranking officers were dead. Hindsight is always 20/20
If they took the Hub, they would have to advance technology IMO, This would create Caesar's main goal between the East and West, which is to have his well disciplined and obedient army integrated with the NCR policies and numbers. I mean- Ave, True to Caesar.
@@Peter_Turbo4 that doesn't mean that person is gonna be universally supported. Lanius for instance, he hates Vulpes and Vulpes probably feels the same about Lanius. There could be infighting within the legion to see who is and who isn't a good successor, considering Caesar doesn't appear to have a child.
@@raquaza7777 lanius very clearly speaks of Vulpes with disdain. As well as he points out that "there are those in the east that would wish to see me fail"
The question is how well equipped is the New Californian Army? We know they posses at least a division or two ( Lee Oliver is a general, I assume he leads a Division) although the Battalion is their largest unit we encounter. We also know they posse motorized units in pre war trucks used for either transport or logistics, since Camp MaCaren has a motor-pool of sorts. So they can move at the least company sized elements across surviving ore war roads, not to mention the powder gangers tell the player the NCR has rebuilt some of the rail lines, that would give them some edge in logistics and transport. Now I’d argue they also must have some form of artillery, either refurbished pre war guns like the Boomers or post war built, like mortars or at largest some kind of 75mm pack howitzers, if the Minutemen can build fixed artillery, then the NCR can build portable artillery. Now Doctrine is no doubt based off ore war U.S military, like our ‘50s and ‘60s Cold War era defense in depth or captured/defected Enclave teachings. Dug in troops, backed by artillery, able to be resupplied by vehicle or rail, with reconnaissance by vertibirds? I think the NCR’s forces might fair well in a larger campaign against the Legion on their home ground.
You're assuming that the legion can operate as effectively deep in NCR territory as they could just behind Hoover dam. there's no reason to believe that they had an extensive intelligence Network built up already at the hub, and if they didn't it's unlikely that they would be able to recruit the local gangs in time for their offensive. you're also assuming that the gangs at the hub don't already know that the legion lied to their previous allies. Despite the fact that at least one of the gangs has confirmed connections with the powdergangers. Additionally, the reasons that you gave for the legion winning the Battle of Hoover dam were that the legion had a massive element of surprise, and that an incompetent general was leading the NCR. Neither of these will be true at the hub. and it's safe to say that the legion would have been facing harassment the entire time that it was marching towards the hub, leaving them already more exhausted than the NCR who are defending on their home turf. And they'll be approaching from a predictable direction against a fortified location manned by troops who realize that this is do or die. I think that even you must be able to see that the legion taking the hub is a wildly optimistic claim.
I don't know for a fact but the NCR in my eyes would have stumbled upon pre war jets or tanks, perhaps they're too broken to be repaired? Who knows with the information we have, perhaps the NCR can produce some sort of military vehicle
A factor that is excluded in this analysis is outside forces. If the NCR was to face an invasion from Oregon during this time, either by a super mutant warband, or a particularly ferocious tribal warlord, it would end, fast. But NCR also has a valuable ally - the Shi. They have access to a large population of the Bay, best technology and a formidable air force. They wouldn't be willing to help in Nevada, but they are tied to the Hub with trade. On the other hand, the loyalties of Vault City and New Reno are questionable. They could side with the Legion, certain they can't be reached. The Western Brotherhood could have been a formidable ally to the NCR, but it has been destroyed. The legion, in turn, has possible threats from all sides. It's position is much worse - California is a natural fortress, Arizona is not. Any faction in Mexico could use this campaign as the perfect opportunity to slash and burn all of Legion's territory. And we have no idea as to what the state of Mexico is now - there could be a powerful empire there. A state that is likely very hostile - the Legion isn't subtle with diplomacy. Although even a raider gang ferocious enough would do the job. The plains of Mississippi may be a home to a nomadic culture that is particularly nasty at warfare and would see this as the perfect opportunity to raid the shit out of eastern provinces of the Legion. God knows Rome suffered from nomadic invasions from the steppes. Even the 80s, the current powerhouse of Utah, may want to join in on the fun. And lastly, Texas may be a threat of it's own, though we can only speculate of what kind. In short, the slightest change on the global balance of power can tip the scales. Neither NCR nor the Legion exist in a vacuum.
Actually no, thanks to the actions of Tandi and our character, the loyalty of Reno and Vault city cannot be questioned . The family that rules Reno is on very good terms with the NCR ( they are in charge because of them ) and thanks to special regulations, Reno is Las Vegas of California. And in the case of Vault city , they are addicted to electricity that comes from Geck , which since NCR (theoretically) abolished racism is a loyal city of the republic .
In my playthroughs I go for a legion ending, keeping Caesar alive. But in Lonesome road I nuke the long 15. As Ulysses says, its a wall that will take time for Caesar to cross. As long as Caesar regroups for a few years after taking New Vegas, I believe his campaign into the NCR would be more successful. Holding Vegas, and the water, electricity, and commerce it provides. Setting up trade routes using the NCR's infrastructure is already the first steps towards synthesis. With New Vegas as the capital. Caesar would need to focus on establishing the homefront before any more military conquests. And the nuked Long 15 is a good reason to take some time to catch their breath. I dont disagree that Caesar would have wanted to march immediately. But if any of his council (including perhaps the courier himself) were to suggest biding their time. Having the frumitari infiltrate and cause subterfuge. While also waiting for the NCR's economy to start falling apart, while the New Vegas strip cause the legion economy to grow. I think Caesar would listen. And within a decade, The NCR would be conquered.
NCR will be unable to take over Arizona. Legion has accomplished something that no other faction did... Create their own culture. To add to that, NCR is overextended and too corrupt as it is... Ironically, even if they make gains in Arizona, the campaign will kill them.
Lad The Mojave Campaign (Pacification of the Mojave) was the NCR's own Guadalcanal campaign in terms of the numbers of casualties , an NCR invasion of Caesers legion territory would be it's own Vietnam war , also as Boba said : "even if they make gains in Arizona, the campaign will kill them."
@@who7657 I agree. NCR is too corrupt and incompetent to control the California, Las Vegas and Arizona. And Caesar Legion doesn't have infrastructure, important pre-war technologies and guerrilla war tactics/ hit and run tactics like NCR. Which accurately means Caesar's Legion can't control Arizona, Los Vegas and California. No matter which side wins. Both will inevitably die together. Because war, war never changes.
Would it be any different if the courier operated within the Mojave at maximum efficiency, in the name of the Legion? Like gave them all the help you can do in the game.
The Mojave outpost is a very easy to hold location and if you side with Caesar the ncr fortifies it a lot. I feel like they could make a minefield on the bottom of the hill and easily hold it for a while
@@DJSpike-ft9yw And if the NCR, with their higher position, decide that they wanna start picking them off before they get close? Because it would take awhile for the Legion to gather a large enough pack, and the NCR is gonna keep them under watch the whole time. 1st Recon would start putting rounds into foreheads long before the Legion gathers enough.
personaly, I think Mojave outpost would already be impossible to take for the Legion for reasons like The NCR having the highground and ranged weapons The Legion unable to use Frumentarii for logistical(and moral) advantage since the Mojave Outpost now *is* the frontline No hidden 'Tunnels' like Hoover Dam where the Legion can force CQC
Legion spent almost decade trying to take the Mojave. The legion knows how to bid it’s time. They’re not gonna blitzkrieg from Hoover Dam to The Hub, they’re gonna conquer Nevada, fortify the area, and start building up their army. Give it another decade or two, and even if Legate Lanius takes over, they’ll have an army that ranges from 50,000-100,000 easily. That’s the one thing the Legion has on the NCR: Numbers. One to One is a no doubt fight, but it’s not One to One, it never is. It’s one to thousand.
But Lanius is a monster. He's a warrior, not a leader. He doesn't have Caesar's vision. While Edward Sallow marches into the Strip victoriously and takes over the city, if Lanius is Caesar, he attacks the Strip as if it's a military target, sacks and pillages the city, killing half of the population and enslaving the other half.
This is better than Oxhorn "legion dont use guns, NCR have snipers"
But the Legion does use guns many many times in so many area's of the Mojave.
@@kingnamor777 No but at the same time they don't make anything just take it from others
@@slaughterthefalsegodempero1220 That's true.
Oxhorn bad
Boo get new material
Starts sweating
@@olmeno oxhorn fan spotted
An interesting yet believable exploration of a Legion victory and take over.
More like typical Legion stan nonsense where lore is selectively ignored
@@nathanlevesque7812Seems reasonable to me. If everything goes well for the legion in mojave, they get one ncr city and a stupid amount of casualties in exchange.
I also got to say that the biggest reason why Caesar - or Edward Sallow, won't be able to make it pass the hub, is that he'll be dead already without Courier intervention. Lanius will most likely wisely either keep the hub as a Legion outpost or as you said, salt it and destroy the hub completely before retreating to the long fifteen and officially make the Mojave be part of the Legion. Preston would then give the Sole Survivor a mark on his Pipboy that a settlement out west is in need of their help. Here, he'll mark it on our map.
I agree. Hypothetically if Caesar's Legion makes it pass the Hub. Eventually divine intervention or miracles will happen. Where a hero will emerge to defeat Caesar and his Legion. Whether it's the Solo Survivor, a descendant of the chosen one or even a prodigy NCR Soldier.
Or maybe Vulpes or some other frumentarri kidnap a follower (like doc usangi) to treat caesars tumor and the followers pacifist nature and doctors code wouldn’t permit them to kill Caesar
@@kingnamor777 then an even stronger Chosen One appears from the Legion farmer family and singlehandedly destroy the NCR and unite the former USA
@@BR0984 I highly doubt and disagree with this outcome.
@@kingnamor777 I know my outcome will come true, because I said so ;)
Judging it from a military historians perspective it seems most likely that the Legion will successfully invade and hold the Mojave but be bogged down once they attempt to invade California.
I mean, that's exactly what the courier says will happen to peacefully stop lanius
Well I didn’t mean to write a novel, buuuut...
I’d guess something comparable to the American civil war, where an objectively far superior (at least, at first) fighting force defeats an unprepared enemy over and over for a few months, but as their good soldiers are gradually killed or wounded and replaced by conscripts they lose their primary advantage, and then their inability to replace weapons/gear and men drains their ability to fight at all, let alone be on the offensive. Legionaries take a decade to properly train so their only reinforcements would be disloyal slave soldiers, who would surrender as soon as it was safe to. The Legion can only grow weaker, while the NCR will only grow stronger, as it picks up momentum and both outnumbers and outguns the legion. Especially because they’re desperately defending their homeland, not some desert they don’t really care about. Basically, WWII Eastern front where Germany is completely unindustrialized.
Oh, and that’s without the NCR’s indirect fire, which the Legion would have no response to other than retreat. Artillery support, field mortars, chemical weapons, and possible air strikes, all coordinated with ground forces. The NCR almost definitely has a small fleet of vertibirds, and with the scientific knowledge seen in New Vegas, could definitely mass-manufacture chemical weapons. The Legion would need to not only possess the same technology, but transport it with them, while the NCR just needs to wait.
The only way the Legion could win was if they took the NCR’s industrial centers AND capital before the ANCR could mobilize, and they had the numbers to cover and hold the entire NCR, and the NCR didn’t have air/artillery support or biochem weapons to decimate them, and they could hold off all counterattacks, and survived an inevitable guerrilla war, all before attrition set in and doomed them. Maybe if the Enclave gave them support, but even if the NCR fell the remnants would run a guerrilla war that would drag on for years and years.
My verdict: Legion deals the NCR multiple humiliating defeats for a few weeks/months until they lose momentum and stall, then the fully mobilized and very angry ANCR counterattacks, seals the border to encircle the Legion, and uses indirect fire on what’s left until the Legion is... ancient history (YEAAAAAAH). Alternatively, the NCR starts hitting the Legion with artillery as soon as it crosses the border, then repeatedly strafes the survivors with vertibirds when they turn around and retreat. NCR chases them into and then out of the Mojave, where things get messy again.
@@darealjoff19
The Legion would eventually win in the end. Legion will adapt and basically it is like America in Vietnam. You describe all the reasons America should win in Vietnam but due to them not understanding that Guerilla warfare/wars can't be countered or won by Verti-birds and Artillery. Even the Technology Advanced Brotherhood learned this against the NCR. The NCR makes the same mistake that the Brotherhood did that they are superior therefore they will win but we saw how that happened.
@@darealjoff19 The way I see it, the Legion under Caesar would recuperate after winning Hoover Dam and convert the region into his vision of Rome (which hinges on him surviving the tumor). The Legion under Lanius would likely collapse or devolve into a glorified raider tribe focused single-mindedly on warfare. Though Lanius is brilliant in his own way, he likely does not understand how to run an empire during a time of peace. Caesar is not only the one with a thorough plan for the Legion, but he understands how to fight meticulously. He knew to bide his time building up an army over the course of 4 years, and came back even stronger for it. And unlike Lanius, Caesar sees the value in using frumentarii and other such "dishonorable tactics". I think yaboiii neglects how much of a disadvantage the Legion is at due to their rejection of technology, there's no way in hell any centurion can take down an NCR vertibird unless they fly in range of a howitzer (which are immobile and easy to avoid). I'm sure Caesar (unlike Lanius) intends to eventually incorporate technology into the Legion's regiment (given his interpretation of Hegelian dialectics), but in terms of an immediate NCR invasion it would be too little too late. They should feel lucky they haven't had any proper wars with the Enclave or Brotherhood yet, even the Enclave remnants manage to score heavy casualties in the epilogue.
But much like the Legion, the NCR may also evolve into something greater in order to deal with their new enemy. Kimball's assassination could very well be a boon for the NCR. It eliminates a corrupt and incompetent leader and acts as a wakeup call to start taking the Mojave conflict more seriously. Ultimately, due to how large and long-established the NCR is, they're on sturdier ground than the recently founded Legion. The NCR can bounce back from a few devastating blows to their leadership, whereas the Legion's prosperity seems to hinge entirely upon Caesar and Lanius.
@Nunya Business Exactly. Honestly, the biggest thing to realize about the NCR is that they were losing in the Mojave not because they were at a disadvantage, but because they *weren't putting their backs into it* . They were too busy fighting amongst themselves and squabbling, plus they pulled out much of their forces to do other things. If they lost at Hoover Damn, I don't expect them to sit idly by and cry about the Legion snapping up Vegas and the Damn, not to mention killing off much of their soldiers and their president. Hell, I'd even say they'd launch counterattacks as soon as the Legion set foot in Vegas.
Good point at the end. If Legion invades, the NCR would have to become more militaristic. It might use an emergency production act to nationalize Brahmin Baron assets which might help it break out of its rut of corruption.
Or assuming the ncr doesn’t collapse into factions like NCSR New California Socialist Republic who follow an author simply known as “The father” (and yes he is Karl Marx)
Or the CIS (confederacy of independent settlements)
And cities like New Reno, Vault city, and other would succeed from the ncr
While ncr loyalists assuming they don’t get overthrown or are by the ncrs but the ncrs falls into defeat after defeat from legion and their own
And the CiS would fall the infighting with the help of legion spies
Annnndddd what might happen next? Well I have an idea but it needs more time in the oven (it’s probably overcooked by now)
As though nationalising private assets wouldn’t increase corruption even more
@@bno6156 well assuming that the ncr isn’t too decedent, it might make the ncr a more one headed bear against the legion
@@jackakakreanxx5587 imagine living in a Marxist state in the post apocalypse. Just game over for everyone involved.
@@bno6156 maybe not for the invading legion
"the west it's a trap, and the bear has already been caught in it, and it is dying" ~Legate Lanius
Sounds like something China would say about our Liberal Capitalistic Western society.
@@nice3333333333 And they'd be right
@@asepsisaficionado7376 the only reason china is a regional power is because of liberal capitalistic western society.
@@lmccampbell based
@Nunya Business oh yeah. The NCR's neck is caught in the noose of the mojave and the legion shall only kill it faster.
based and hegeliandialecticpilled
Your assessment of the Mojave Outpost/Long 15 is way off.
Everything in a Fallout game is scaled down massively. For example, the NCR looses over 1000 troops in the Mojave each year. There's probably not 100 troopers in the whole game. New Vegas, outer districts and ruins included, is very small compared to real life Las Vegas. Just because we see the Mojave Outpost as 2 buildings doesn't mean that's all that's there. Like every other settlements, what we see is a small sample of the real thing.
It's also a place that can be easily reinforced. Since the Outpost is visable from the other military encampments of the Long 15, we have to assume those troops could be moved up as soon as any fighting began. Unless the area actually does get nuked, in which case the Legion probably will need to find a new route west.
"They even have an outpost scant miles west from here."
Words spoken by a Brotherhood Scout, in Nipton, referring to the Mojave outpost. In game the distance looks barely a mile. Everything is downscaled, exactly.
Massively scaled down, its impossible to actually get a read of the strengths and weaknesses of each faction because of how scaled down they are. I was just talking about this last night on the "who would win if the courier died" video. My opinion of the state of things in the Mojave is that no faction has enough resources and power to take the entire region without crippling themselves in some way. I believe the legions losses would be far to great after the battle at the dam and the subsequent occupation of the Mojave. The NCR is to fractured and strained to move into the east. Mr.House is only really interested in Vegas and if he had total control of Vegas I don't think he'd be liable to do anything but maybe keep the legion on the other side of the grand canyon and allow NCR to fund the strip like the way the game began.
You’re also told at the Cove that the ride to Caesar’s Fort will take hours, but gameplay wise walking up the map doesn’t take too long
Another point for in-game scale != in-universe scale are the Vaults.
The games describe some of them as being able to hold a population up to 1,000 people (albeit with hot-bunking) while none of the in-game Vaults we've seen in the series yet could feasibly do that, and an in-universe advertisement seen in FO1 depicts a Vault with a large layout with many floors that none of the Vaults in-game really resemble.
This idea is pretty common with a lot of RPGs; especially retro ones but it shows up in modern ones too. We're not really supposed to believe that places described as large bustling cities actually have a population in the high double digits or low triple digits at best.
EDIT: This also occurs in games from other genres too of course, but I mean that sort of RPG trope where even supposedly huge cities still only have like a few dozen NPCs and aren't that much significantly larger than the towns elsewhere on the map.
Yeah I always imagined that if Caesar won then the Mojave Outpost becomes the NEW Hoover Dam basically. Its kinda the same too, 1 way in 1 way out. Took 4 years and alot of dead legionaries to take Hoover Dam, dont see the Mojave Outpost being any easier. Except this time the Legion has to hold the Mojave AND take the Outpost, no small task I say.
Ever notice how almost 11 years later people are still talking about Fallout New Vegas and its story while Fallout 4 has kinda become a forgotten relic of 2015.
um what are you talking about fallout 4 is still talked about
@D Ceased quit winning
@@AmalekIsComing Yes Fallout 4 is still talked about but not nearly as much as New Vegas
@@bruhcorp5172 It is true to an extent but distorted truth ... Fallout 4 still gets talked about, fallout 4 is a great game which many people love ... but fallout new vegas is definitely superior in terms of the storyline. But its not a zero sum game .. in order for FNV to be great too and even superior in certain aspects .. Falllout 4 does not need to be diminished in any way
Where we can easily agree is that Fallout 76 tho a good game was unfinished too much and only targeted a certain part of original target audience and was aimed at bringing new audience into the fold. Bethesda just needed that Skyrims ESO for Fallout universe and I guess thats fine, but I dont feel any need to play Online versions of these games at all since I want that singleplayer RPG experience only. But I dont need to shit on everything I dont like.
Fallout 4 gets discussed quite a lot actually, but it's mostly about how it has so many cool idea and wastes nearly all of them.
The Hub would be Caesar's Stalingrad
NOOOO you’re supposed to be inferior sub humans you can’t just fight back
NCR: haha bull mad
Legion: No! You're killing us in number! Just surrender and accept your fate!
NCR: Haha, machine guns go brrrr...
@@someguy9293Stalingrad was won through attrition though...
You got an underrated channel man. Dunno which state you're from, but love from Victoria.
Victoria as well mate! All the best over this next mini lockdown.
Imagine living in Australia lmao
But fr great vids and I hope you’re ok
As a female fan of the Legion i feel so out of place lmfao
Ave true to caesar.
Ave Amicus. True to Caesar.
Ave
Women just aren’t allowed to be *Frontline Combatants* within the legion without the permission of Ceaser
Otherwise, they’re allowed to do whatever
>Female Legion Fan, you 100% simp for vulpes don’t you
Despite agreeing with your Mojave campaign vid 99%, I'm gonna have to disagree right away with this one. There are two definitive reasons that the Legion would take the Mojave:
1. They have spent the last four years getting ready to exclusively take the Hoover dam, and by extension the Mojave.
2. General Oliver is a moron.
You eliminate both of those factors and add the fact the NCR is now fighting on home territory, and it is tough to see the Legion pushing into the NCR or vice versa anytime soon. At that point, it is 100% theory crafting and fanfic, which is fun, albeit without much weight.
Thats fair! Thanks for the comment, and glad you enjoyed the other vid.
I don’t think a lot of people really understand the importance of Hoover dam to the NCR. Why they’ve been fighting years and years, sending over a 1000 of troops to die every year. They’ve been putting this much money, lives, and resources to defend the dam for two reasons. Clean Water and Power.
Water is essential for growing crops. It needs water to grow and without crops, there is no food other than animals which feed on said crops. Before Hoover dam, there wasn’t a lot of water to go around. They drained aquifers, neglected their own small dams, and turned entire reservoirs into just mud and dust. However, once they found Hoover dam? Found how much clean water it gave, it was like a godsend. It provided as much water as they needed and were able to grow crops with it. It solved most of their issues too. Only problem was actually getting it to the sharecroppers in the Mojave. Too bad this was still not enough. They were still going to have a food shortage in 10 years, even with all this water.
Power. Power is needed to... power... most advanced technology in fallout. Cars, trains, radios, and possibly vertibirds. Anything that moves needs power. NCR was running into power shortages. They weren’t able to power everything they needed. That’s including the homes of NCR citizens. However, again, Hoover dam answers their prayers. Even with it’s efficiency not at 100%, it still solves most of their issues. They were able to power their trains, radios, cars, and the households of NCR citizens. Only problem was, still, was transportation of said power. Even with all this power, they needed more. That’s why they captured the Helios One power plant. Too bad that wasn’t running efficiently either. They still needed more power.
Now you can see that Hoover dam isnt something that powers the NCR, it’s something they NEED. They lose Hoover dam, they’re crippled and will collapse. Too bad that’ll never happen- oh, there goes Hoover dam.... hm... let’s talk about what happens now.
Water scarcity. Now that they lost Hoover dam, they don’t have water anymore. Have best, just water shortages. This means crops can’t grow. This means no food, this means people not being fed, cattle not being fed. People die of starvation, cattle die of starvation. Luckily, they won’t have to worry about that since dehydration will kill them first. We still need water to live. Without water, we die. We die quickly without water. Citizens die of dehydration, troops die of dehydration. Wait, don’t they have aquifers, reservoirs, or even dams of their own? Nope! Most, if not All, were drained before Hoover dam! Now, the lack of food quickens, if not brings, the food shortages. People will die of starvation if the dehydration doesn’t first.
Power shortages. Any little advantage the NCR has with its technology is now gone. Cars still need power, radios need power, trains need power. If the NCR had any of those things, those are now inert. If they were any people to man them, they’re now useless. The NCR heavily relied on Hoover dam for power but needed more. They went for Helios One to get more power, even with Hoover Dam. Now that they don’t Hoover dam or even Helios one, they’re screwed. Power shortages are the worst they’ve ever been. Anything that needs power, something as simple as a lightbulb, does not work anymore. How the NCR praises itself for having “great” technology? How it hoisted itself up for being a powerful nation because of it? Now, gone.
It’s not that Hoover dam is armor for NCR, it’s a crutch that’s holding them from collapsing. They lose Hoover dam, they lose the war.
@@roderick04 And it's not just that. If they lose the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam, they will lose their entire reputation back in the California. People will start questioning their actions, Brahmin Barons, Senators (other settlements) and Moneylords will start thinking about leaving the NCR and going independent and they will probably try negotiating with the Legion.
NCR collapses in the 3 endings of the game. If Mr. House wins the Battle, Crimson Caravans, Gun Runners, other merchant companies and majority of Ranchers will immigrate to the Vegas and start their business over there. They will leave the NCR because NCR's economy will go downhill. As we see in the game, NCR's economy is in a bad state and they desperately need the Hoover Dam. The NCR Senate will fight with each other on what to do next, they will probably crucify Kimball and his butt buddie General Wait-And-See and try to negotiate with Mr. House, just to lower the price for electricity and water. Mr. House will know the fact that now he has the NCR in his claws, he will offer them a fair deal in exchange for their mechanics and scientists, the NCR Senate will desperately accept the deal. Mr. House will use the mechanics and scientists for his own personal agenda.
In any case, NCR will collapse. It's so obvious in the game, why do people still think that the NCR is going to live and thrive?
@@Kreia. well in that case only the legion wins seeing as house requires the NCR for his plan of improvements
His whole thing is to hold the dam as leverage to get money from the NCR
Without that well
The house goes bust
@@roderick04 you make valid arguments except not really
We've seen out west people put together water purifiers from random scrap they find meaning the NCR a nation that produces could easily supply themselves with water not to mention the sierra Nevada was recently pacified allowing more water from all that snow same with the power generators it's not a crippling loss but more a demoralizing one basically just Pearl Harbor
The only real problem would be food but that could be dealt with in a number of ways
Bruh Caesar look like a MnM.
He is the real slim shady
bruh he do be look like m n m 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 bruh
A westward invasion wouldn't occur quite how you described I think, namely as it doesn't match Caesar's current known strategy, which is one of subterfuge, undermining, then assault.
It's no great coincidence that after defeat at Boulder City Caesar spent 4 years recovering, but also planting spies amongst enemy lands. I'm not saying a Westward expansion wouldn't still be a bloody affair, but you'd have to imagine he would have Frumentarii undermining each and every major NCR roadblock. As for the Hub, I don't think Caesar would try to attack it. Not only would he have to fight the NCR, but he would also face some of the wealthiest people in charge of caravans, who have vested interest in keeping the Hub's status quo. I would however, be interested to see how effective Frumentarii are in more sophisticated and well supplied NCR regions.
“Hold your tongue Wastrel.”
As a current pre-war citizen of the Hub, The Legion either takes this town and the rest of Southern California, or the Legion stops here. The natural terrain is a bottleneck that favors western defense. If taken, however, it's the perfect point to assault the West.
Just watched your Mojave campaign video, excited to watch this one!
You really deserve more views!
11 year old game still new videos about it
Because it’s now on game pass so it’s relevant again
@@FP194 it was relevant whole 11 years
@Mason Nemitz well wasn't WW2 major event in human history you can say Jesus was born 2021 ago and there is still stuff about it
@Mason Nemitz i agree beter then jesus
The farther the legion spreads the more they become like the NCR during new Vegas
I believe that after the sacking of settlements along the Long 15, the Legion - having taken heavy casualities, would withdraw. However I dont agree with some that this would end the Legion or put it at a severe disadvantage.
Caesar is prideful but not a fool. After ripping the economic heart out of the NCR, a long period of the two powers being bordering states would favour the Legion. The Mojave has enough cosmopolitan resources and culture that the dialectical synthesis would start for the Legion. As the Legion comes to base itself in a perminent city, supported by Hoover dam and a new wealth of technology, it would be in a great position to recover from losses and establish a civilian element. As Legate Lanius states, there is still territory out East to be conquered, the Legion need not loose all momentum as it recovers and prepares for its next encounter.
The NCR however, stripped of the Hoover dam, taking huge material and moral attrition, and having its economy in tatters, would only further deteriorate with time. They already couldn't pacify raiders within their own terrirory and on their borders, imagine the chaos after a loss to the Legion on home soil. All of this would be further accelerated by a bolstered Frumentarii which have shown themselves to be extremely effective and the NCR has failed to properly counter them.
The big problem comes with Caesars death. Given the efficacy of their actions, and more time to prepare, I don't think it's improbable that a Frumentarii faction could come to power, which would be terrible news for the NCR. If however Lanius still assumes power, he's already stated he doesn't want to fall into the trap of the west.
The NCR would slowly tear itself apart while the Legion would gradually gain power. I don't see a NCR victory as likely in the least.
The legion could split on caesars death since we know there are other commanders that oppose lanius. The fact that the legion doesn’t like to use technology, means that they would struggle to push into core ncr territory. The only reason the ncr is struggling in the Mojave is because of supply issues. But if the legion pushes into California then they’ll be the ones with supply issues.
Just saying, i'd imagine a dying Caesar, as Caesar was an "intellectual" at heart, would at the last moment put Vulpus in charge of the legion rather then the legate. Implying Vulpus would be put into power (AND only with him will the legion be successful) you sort of enter a literal cold-war state of being. Sure the Furmentarii will successfully infuriate every aspect of NCR government (As the soviets did with the US) but without manpower / infilstructure / Cultural influence its neglected by the seer size and national pooled resources / economy. I think the NCR is too powerful to be truly defeated by Furmentarii alone, that said if the Legion were equally as big as the NCR then they would have the man power to proceed with such a tactic but they just don't... The east is apparently a recently cleansed hellzone (Raul literally states that "Boss, if you think the Legion is bad, you should've seen it before they came into power, i don't mind them" while the NCR has been MOSTLY pacified (despite the gangs mentioned, there are traitors that state the NCR is "mostly" raider free so much so that power armored troops are defending rich brahmin rancher lords...
Carlos Even then, Vulpes is a spy and assassin, not a leader. Vulpes is no Ceaser, he doesn’t have the leadership skill and doesn’t have the backing of the other legionaries, none of the legions commanders were made to replace Ceaser.
Only thing is the NCR is a massive economic state, they have most of all the caravan companies backing them, most weapon companies backing them, and have way more people to produce crops, and res our way. The NCR has far greater resources than the Legion, they wanted the Mojave for the power and caps.The Legion relies on slave trades, but once the slaves find a way to rebel or the NCR frees them, the Legion will lose most of its strength, they only use half of their population as soldiers since women aren’t allowed to fight, or do anything useful, the Legion is outnumbered by the NCR, NCR just hold the long 15 which they can do as the NCR settlements are much farther down the Long 15 and far away from the Mojave outpost, the Legion would have to march a long way and by that time they will have to attack well prepared and reinforced settlements.
You lost me at "economic heart". Do you actually think the Mojave is more important to the NCR than literally all of California?
I think after the victory in the Mojave Caesars myth would finally be secured and the Legion would no longer be as brittle should he die. Skirmishes and perhaps even organized campaigns/large scale raids into the NCR from the Mojave (or Vice versa) would see both parties bleeding through the centuries as even an angry NCR wouldn’t be able to take back the Mojave (every attempt to do so would just end up as another guerrilla war with the Legion, which they already lost to when the Legion had far less resources).
After years of stalemate and several emperors very little territory will have changed hands, and both sides would find themselves in a Cold War. The Legion and NCR would both race to expand into new lands at their borders north and south in order to try and gain an advantage, destined forever to battle each other as they divide America, but with neither side really gaining a decisive enough advantage to completely annihilate the other.
So a never ending war.
Literally the worst possible scenario.
This is very unlikely to be the case.
The legion winning is probably the worse thing they could do. The NCR in New Vegas is playing around not taking the issue seriously, nobody wants to be there and nobody wants to stay there without progress. If the legion takes the Mojave how long till the full might of the proffesional NCR army arrives? Because they've been mainly fighting recruits
The Legion would take most of Nevada and parts of western California but would struggle with taking it all. It would have to wait and buy time before it can regain the Strength necessary to move forward. The Legion won’t get greedy and fight a war it cannot win, but will still be angered that the NCR has not been conquered. Ultimately it will lead to a stalemate, with wars continuing to be fought, with honestly no real end in sight.
I'm watching this while trying to launch the game because my xbox 360 turns off every time I try to load the game. It usually takes about 5 minutes to start
I think you're underplaying a bit the part the Frumentarii would play in the NCR territories.
No doubt that the Legion has already planted Frumentarii in California well before the invasion of the Mojave. Keep in mind that Frumentarii were instrumental in the fall of the Mojave, not just the Legion's numbers and tactics.
>Frumentarii were responsible for Nipton, which completely broke the enemy when their morale was already in question.
>Frumentarii kept the Legion aware of troop movements and positions.
>Frumentarii sabotaged multiple points of escape and reinforcement that the NCR would have used when the Legion invaded.
They wouldn't just report on the effectiveness of the forts and the Legion would just march through. The Legion would play this smart, and with as little casualties as possible until they reach the Hub. Remember they aren't just spies, but saboteurs and assassins. They had no response to Frumentarii in the Mojave because it was downplayed so much. The fall of the Mojave might make them keener, but I don't think they'd be able to filter out Frumentarii effectively, especially if Caeser already had them planted in California since the Mojave invasion.
Though even if not, with the pour of refugees from the Mojave, it would be all too easy to sneak in Frumentarii into California in that chaos.
I think the success of either looting or occupying The Hub will depend on whether or not the Legion's Frumentarii there are effective. So far, they've been shown as nothing but effective.
That's assuming that Caesar would not get killed by his tumor.
Because the frumentarii would either get butchered by Lanius who makes it clear that he despises them or manage to go into hiding until Lanius is far enough into NCR territory so that they can take over the East.
@@thebandofbastards4934 I think Caesar would have the means. He already knows he needs the specs for his AutoDoc and he knows the location of it. All it takes is retrieving it, albeit probably at the cost of a few dozen legionaires from rad posioning.
@@resolutionblaze363 It's more about him doing it on time as he avoids letting out any mention about the tumor in order to not look weak and that it would be more likely that it would be too late for him before he adresses the problem as it can be seen as he didn't find a medical professional during his stay in the East.
Also it's the Courier that suggests to use the auto-doc as if Caesar tried to talk about it openly it would disturb his position, that's why the courier is sent without any help despite it being of a major importance for the Legion. So that the whole thing would be on a low profile in order to not rise controversy among the ranks.
I think you failed to consider the large amount of NCR who would either desert the military out of fear, or actually defect to the Legion. Even Cass mentions she’s concerned about NCR based caravans trading with the Legion in their territory out East so there’s already people within the NCR selling weapons, and other supplies to the Legion. It would be a lot more muddled than a straight-up military conflict. It would be a total conflict of both military force, and political ideology amongst the population. If the Frumentari were to infiltrate the NCR Political system they could weaken it even further, and even trigger an NCR Civil War.
That would be a very difficult chunk of propagandizing for them to accomplish though.
In Machiavelli’s the prince, the peoples of a free nation are the most difficult for a king to control because even the grandchildren will remember freedom.
And for historical context Rome was incredibly anti-royalty and Julius was a dictator for life, but not a king and had a very cold reception to a “joke” about being a king. Similarly Augustus had to call himself the first citizen because he knew he would find himself at the wrong end of an angry mob of free peoples if he called himself king. And this was the dance they had to do as fellow denizens of Rome. A foreign power being invited in and allowed even the slightest governance? And one that is a despotic slaver who is the very antithesis to everything they hold sacred?
The political side of things would take centuries to convert without a frumentari being laughed off the political podium, if not taken out by an angry mob.
What do you mean if... With people like Capt Curtis showing how deep they go, i doubt there is a possibility that the legion hasn't already infiltrated NCR proper before the courier even gets involved.
@@adeptusfantasticus
Curtis was a plant though. He started as a Trooper and got promoted up the ladder to Captain. Caesar even bitches about how difficult it was and how long it took to get Curtis to that point when you meet him if you killed Curtis beforehand.
@@youraveragescotsman7119 yeah I know, I was pointing out there is no if when it comes to infiltration, they don't just have frumentarii as aids to important people, they've been imbedding folk for years, even influencing senators with helpful propaganda about the waste of resources the Mojave campaign is
@@adeptusfantasticus
I don't think there's every been anything said about Legion spies in mainland NCR. Like, the Mojave was already an unpopular campaign and the NCR was already planning on downsizing the resources they spent on it. This had nothing to do with the Legion and everything to do with Brahmin Barons being corrupt and bribing the NCR to start wars for them in other areas like the Baja.
God bless the Enclave, and god bless America!
I wish enclave was there instead of CL
You need more views/ subscribers this channel offers really good "what if" fallout scenarios and I imagine (if you're up to it) good scenarios on other games in the future, I'm so happy I stumbled across your video essays keep up the great work I'm excited for the next video.
Appreciate it! And yes I will eventually deviate away from Fallout in the future
If the Legion tried to invade, I think the NCR would do what Russia has done in the past by going scorched earth mode and falling back deeper into their territory until the legion forces were in too deep and are cut off from the rest of their forces and supply lines. I think the best option for the Legion would be to invade NCR territory and score a victory at a major city (like the Hub) that would show the NCR citizens that they are not safe from the Legion, they can attack whenever they feel like it and cannot be stopped. The legion could potentially use this as leverage to bring the NCR to the bargaining table and use diplomacy (under the threat of more violence) to force the NCR into submission. This is what Robert E Lee wanted to accomplish by invading the North during the Civil War and had the battle of gettysburg gone differently, he may have succeeded
The problem with such an approach is that, unlike Germany or the Confederates, the Legion isn't relatively tiny or an under-dog and doesn't have to quickly conquer and look for a snowball effect or diplomatic status quo. Tech is a disadvantage - yes, but their strategy was to steadily and methodically grind-down their opponent on multiple, well thought out levels. Devious, brutal and effective. The NCR would be unable to dictate the pace and direction, when the enemy lacks motivation/need to fall for this tactic. Legion's leaders aren't brain-dead or bogged down by corruption like the NCR is. There'd be no incentive for the Legion to leverage peace, when they've been the aggressor, inclined towards total war. And successful at it.
At the end of New Vegas' hypothetical Legion victory the score is already 2:1, NCR is already in a bad way, possibly looking at a 3rd strike so to speak. In my opinion the war would grind to a halt, with minor skirmishes and negligible slivers of land changing hands after NV. That is, until another big push eventually comes, a few years down the line. Whomsoever recovers faster and strikes successfully would be the decisive factor. The scales are already tipped in favor of the Legion. NCR is already completely inept, to the point of relying on the existence of a random heroic courier to epicly and dramatically untangle and fix the disastrous, mismanaged mess they've dug themselves into.
In a scenario where the Hub falls, NCR no longer has any water, economy, external trade, power projection or chance to recover for more rounds. The NCR is suffering from all the problems of modern society, a few created on their own, on top of life after the Apocalypse. The political and societal devastation would no doubt cripple them even further. Wouldn't be too far fetched to consider an eventual fracturing, especially since they're sharing a direct border with the subversive Legion. There's no more buffers, "all hits" are direct and eating away at their ability to respond. The NCR isn't the USSR, there's no endless territory, no cohesive ideology, no singular rule to direct them or even that much production to be saved/transferred over their proverbial Urals - the Mojave.
@@countschnitzel8903 hear me out the ncr is industrialized unlike the legion is strong yes but Caesar will most likely die the legate is not as smart as Caesar he will lose because chief Hanlon will once be allowed control over the NCR forces allowing for more creative tactics which devastated the legion let's also not forget the legion are weak to long range which California being large open field spells disaster for the legion unless Caesar lives as he understands the need for technology most likely giving them the edge let's also forget the NCR better supply lines vs the legion and yet there were bog down the legion will be like the germans on the eastern front fighting mini stalingrad's and leinngrad's and literally almost lost the war for Denver's now let's see how California goes
@@erickrasniewski567 This relies on chief hanlon not being killed which in most of the legion endings does not happen.
@@erickrasniewski567 Chief Hanlon is already a shadow of his former self and heavily depressed, and this is also largely depending on him not being killed by the Legion since in their endings they crucify or quickly behead him.
@@countschnitzel8903 they don't get past the long 15. Here's why.
There's a reason the legion resorted to guerilla warfare, they can't fight hand to hand. So they infiltrate and do all sorts of espionage, that was when the NCR had holes in their lines. The small long 15 is not the Mojave, it's a strip of land fully in NCR control, the main heartland if you will. The very second the Mojave falls that place becomes a fortress. Trenches, bunkers, barbed wire, you name it they'll set it up. The NCR just got kicked in the nuts and will not be loosing another inch of ground. So every single person that passes through is being investigated. Not to mention the massive witch hunt back home to root out legion spies.
But theres more the legion can't go around , they can try to go through the divide. They'll get torn to shreds by all manner of stuff. They can go through the rest of Nevada, untamed land that needs taming. There's two options and both are just as bad, rush the machine gun nests or waste even more of your manpower on a conquest bound to bring you closer to death.
The NCR has plenty of energy for multiple rounds it's just whether or not they care to try. The NCR in New Vegas is arm wrestling with a toddler using their thumb, use more than just one finger that becomes a different story.
It is often claimed that Caesar does have a mind for logistics, it is doubtful he would be drawn into a campaign that he cannot finish.
As for the point of his myth dying, I think that if his myth managed to survive the first battle of Hoover dam, it will survive a return to the Mojave after a major victory. Especially one that causes a currency crisis which leads to more anti NCR sentiment.
Still, Caesar has shaken up NCR politics, the reactionary president Kimball is dead, and his party has been removed from power due to the humiliating defeat in the campaign they started, as per House's predictions.
A more competent government would rise to power, supported by those that initially opposed military action in the east due to the very real sense of danger the Legion poses to the core lands of the NCR. They would be able to mobilize the full power of the NCR to stop the legion in it's tracks.
It is likely that despite some initial back and forth clashes it results in a stalemate at the very defensible choke point that is the Mojave outpost-long 15 base stretch.
Though I be an NCR supporter, they would have certainly lost the Dam without the Courier. In terms of strategic planning, Caesar can be installed in Shady Sands provided the Legion takes the Long 15 immediately after taking the Dam and then builds for another 10 years. Caesar Edward Sallow, having been a Follower of the Apocalypse, would have read enough about logistics that he would have the supplies needed to take The Hub and sweep north the Shady Sands. Additionally, he knows enough about his own youth that he will avoid actions which would anger Arroyo and bring out the wrath of the Chosen One (if you choose the youngest possible, the CO is only one year older)
Addendum: Per canon, the Chosen one is 20 in FO2, and is therefore only 5 years older than Caesar.
If they call the chosen one in they’re done got
Plot twist, the chosen one was Hanlon the whole time and has been kicking ass for the NCR for years.
@@theshambler6814 I like that idea!!
@@theshambler6814 I highly doubt it. But I will respect your opinion. It's a very creative and imaginative idea🤔
were i the NCR in this case:
-use any rangers to stall them for as long as possible in a fighting retreat slowing their advance down the long 15
-rely on vertibirds to drop small groups of skirmishing units along caesar's supply line
-draw in as many troops from elsewhere in the republic as possible, hopefully many will reach the front thanks to the initial stalling tactics
-a propaganda campaign designed to work out the issues within the army's morale, this time they are fighting for THEIR homes, not the Mojave.
-attempt to appease any groups such as the BoS and perhaps even limited co-operation against a common foe
-make The Hub Stalingrad 2.0 for Caesar's forces.
-The most elite rangers and irregular forces to serve as assassins of high value targets.
- Scorched earth!
- an attempt to reshuffle the government into a wartime one (think Britain from 1939 to 1941)
it's entirely possible in my opinion that the Mojave could be seen as the fall of the Philippines to Japan in our own timeline, something that was inevitable, but becomes a lesson to learn from, a change in attitude could then occur among the general population instilling in them a defiance of the enemy (after all who wants to be a slave or on a cross?)
not all the things i've listed here might be possible, just thought it'd be a fun thought process.
After taking over the Hub, I believe that with the Courier’s assistance (heavy involvement, lots of quests), as well as infiltration by the Frumentarii, the Legion would likely be able to take at least one other state of the NCR. It’d be very difficult but not impossible. A pyrrhic victory of course, but a victory nonetheless. At this point Caesar would realize that conquering the rest would be almost impossible. I should point out that BoS is also at war with the NCR, leaving the NCR fighting two major factions at once. Note that in the event of the Boomers being successfully assimilated, the Legion could also utilize their weapons to devastate NCR territory. Also I think that we shouldn’t underestimate the Courier’s ability to significantly impact the outcome of the war and inflict heavy damage on the NCR all by himself. That being said, there is a possibility of victory for the Legion, but not without sacrifice.
I feel like they could take and hold it for maybe a year or two, but then the NCRs tech advantage would be too large. Combined arms tactics with chemical and tactical nuclear weapons would be the end for the Legion if they try to punch into the NCR.
But can they do that while handling problems at home? There’s a vault quest where an NCR scientist tells you he needs the mutated vegetation to try and find a way to handle an upcoming food shortage. Combine that with drained lakes and a crippled economy from the NCR-BoS War and you have a bad mix for the Republic. Combine that with another comment here mentioning where will all the criminals, raiders, and dangerous beasts go to get away from an advancing legion and...
They won't be able to go further then the Mojave Outpost without god suddenly smiting everything.
The legion is funneling down a small chokepoint that the NCR is going to supply the crap out of. They could go around through Nevada, but we don't know what the rest of the state looks like and those supply issues will just get worse. The small place with the statue becomes a little slice of ww1 as trenches and barbed wire fences are made as machine guns and artillery rains down on anyone advancing towards them.
@@albar428This is really wrong, in terms of tech, The Legion are also proficient in weilding plasma and laser guns and Centurions even use Thermic Lances.
The Legion isn't against the use of tech; They are against the overreliance of it.
@Boxtupos What percentage of the legion are allowed to use energy weapons? Overreliance on tech is not objective. From the reference of the NCR, someone like the BOS is overreliant on tech. If the BOS ballooned in size to that of the NCR, though, they wouldn't be overreliant.
The Legion only needs to deny the NCR the wealth that the hub generates. A seige of sorts would do this and allow the rest of the Legion forces to raid caravans and other nearby settlements for supplies.
I think it's also important to note that if Caesar lives but is not cured, he would continue to deteriorate mentally, possibly developing amnesia or falling into fits. To the legionaries surrounding him, their God would essentially be falling into madness becoming more and more incoherent. That could have a devastating effect all on it's own and spark a severe leadership and religious crisis in the Legion, because as it is, the Legion is entirely based on a cult of personality.
Caesar being alive (without courier intervention) would be worse than Caesar being dead. And Caesar being dead would be the end of the Legion.
Essentially, the Legion is doomed either way, and so is their invasion.
Exactly, You cut the head of the snake they are collapse very hears, the Legión are unstable by themnselfs
@@jager2749Rome, especially during the Empire, had emperors who passed away naturally or were assassinated, and persisted for a thousand years. Just because you have a great leader die, even without a successor, does not mean the whole empire begins to immediately collapse, though it might contribute to it. People obsessively compare real history to Fallout to predict the future, but ignore this point.
@@IanB3rry The issue is that Fallout demonstrates very quickly that the people who hold the levers of power aren’t really the best for the long term survival of the legion. That’s the issue.
I don't think the Courier is the only person that could operate on Caesar or fix an autodoc, especially after they take over New Vegas. Enslave a Follower of the Apocalypse, for example.
@@crenfick7750 there's a reason why the Courier is tasked with this in the game. Caesar *can't* reach out to his followers and reveal his vulnerability because it would put his cult of personality and the rejection of technology into question and risk internal instability. He's also just paranoid, worsened by his condition. There's no way he can trust an enslaved Follower to do the operation. The Courier, as an aligned outsider who is free from these influences and concerns, was Caesar's solution to this problem.
The problem is time. Caesar doesn't have the time remaining to finish the conquest of New Vegas, nor is it a sure thing that he could achieve it at all. It's only through the unique position of the Courier and his actions, that they manage to do it that quickly in the game.
He's in a doomed if you do, doomed if you don't kind of situation of his own design.
I'd really like to see a shooter game (no, I don't want Fallout to become a shooter, it'd be a stand-alone) about the battle of the Hub and the campaign on the Long 15. I mean, it'd be the Stalingrad of the Fallout universe and probably the largest military engagement on the continent since the Alaskan campaign.
yeah would be interesting
It’d have to be some kind of post game dlc hypothetically
War... War truly never changes
If the Legion wins and pushes along the long 15 considering how demoralized the NCR is in the Mojave and with the Legions moral being higher than ever topped already with the fanatical loyalty. These two factors would make the Legions march west far easier with the NCR if not part of a strategic move to quickly fall back west, or as a desperate attempt to survive may abandon meany strong points along the Long 15 in favor of perhaps trying to hold the Legion at its oping into California.
Though Caesar may send his agents west with the refugees to weaken the NCR's defenses, something i could see happening would be the spreading of Caesars legend, about how a man left the NCR conquered a grate empire and now has come back to save his home land. This along with grievances with the NCR's corruption and taxation the prospect of more autonomous settlements giving tribute in times of need vs an annual tax may cause settlements and people to help the Legion when they arrive.
Personally i feel that once the Legion takes the HUB they wont be able to move further beyond small scale raiding though the NCR would be in a far worse condition with the nations economic hub gone, large numbers of men being drafted to hold back the Legion and with the war now being fought in their homeland the NCR would be facing an economic collapse as the government in Shady sands would have to print more money to pay all its new soldiers and with confidence in the government falling in the eyes of the common wast-lander. Pulse a possible resurgence in the activity of raider gangs on what would be largely undefended settlements far from the front along with the lose of a major city on the road south.
This could easily split the NCR in two with the government and some of the army in the north but a largely heavy handed military controlled south if the NCR couldn't retake the HUB and push the Legion out of California long term the NCR would fall due down to its internal instability all the Legion would have to do is hold its ground and clean up what ever smaller states emerge out of the NCR.
Though if the Legion pushed beyond the HUB to try and take Shady Sands or the Bone Yard then their forces would be worn down and destroyed.
I dont see the NCR pulling a Bolder City and leveling it to stop the Legion would do more damage to the NCR then the Legion.
If Caesar where to take the HUB then salt the earth as he returns to the Mojave he would have to launch large raids on all other major settlements in order to prove that this wasn't just a one off with other raids to follow to keep the NCR on the defensive.
I feel that if the legion were to go to conquer the NCR, it would not be all at once, but rather over the course of decades, taking the one piece at a time, the NCR loosing more, while the legion is able to recover faster each time.
Or until, another protagonist swoops in lol.
@@noggy3133 protagonist syndrome, the bane of all empires
til Caesar dies
@@recruitlegionary2936 Then the courier takes over.
@@notatrap6586 lanius takes over which is terrible for the attack against the west
I think you are overestimating the strength and stability of the NCR.
It is stated many times throughout New Vegas, even by Caesar, that the NCR is in a very unstable state. The common people are fed up with all the corruption from the Stockmen's Association (the shadow government of the NCR). The NCR desperately needed to conquer Vegas to boost the morale of the nation and Kimball had promised to deliver on this. If the Legion wins, it would be the biggest catastrophy the NCR ever faced.
It could easily end with a revolution against the NCR government by regular citizens, the Legion could just watch them tear themselves apart.
And maybe “help” the rebels
And if house or yes man won, what would happen in your eyes?
@@jackakakreanxx5587 By "help" you mean "crucify everyone and take their women", correct?
@@facundomontivero2299 No, I mean aid the anti-NCR revolution although they might do what you said
I would agree IF the Legion wasn't at the NCRs doorstep and didn't assassinate Kimball. Mr. House was right. The NCR would be bolstered by their defeat at Hoover Dam and the death of their president, not demoralized. Kimball would become the "martyr of hoover dam". And that's just the start. Political squabbles at home would quite down once Legionaries started sacking NCR towns, killing men, enslaving children, and raping women. The blunt, absolute brutality that built Caesar's empire through assimilating tribes would backfire horrifically against the NRC. By trying to terrorize people into submission, he'd make enemies with the public, and be dealing with near-endless guerilla warfare and partisans. Rather than coming across like a god, as he did to the eastern tribes, Caesar would be a viewed a demon leading an army of monsters.
Also, the NCR Mojave campaign is unfocused and hampered by politics and incompetence. They weren't giving their all to conquer New Vegas. However, an existential threat like a Legion invasion on California itself would be the needed kick in the pants Cass wanted for NCR all along. Their response would be swifter than what the NCR had been doing in the game all along. What awaits the Legion after victory at Hoover Dam is a bigger war. And war never changes.
Pretty much my thinking too. The Mojave isn't the NCR's biggest priority, but if the Legion invades the Mojave, the NCR could easily get organized and take it back. The NCR has by far the most advanced economy that we know of in America. If the Mojave is the frontier, then the cities in California are probably like the east coast of the US in the 19th century with factories and lots of folks to conscript if needed.
Legion goes to the hub
The ncr “hey so do you like tanks”
The Legion maybe do you like missle launchers and mini nukes
@@maxpain2037 legionnaires when they find out they only had one missile and the ncr has pulled out the APC platoon
Overall I dont think the Legion would win in an invasion of the NCR. The reason they could win in the Mojave Wasteland is that they depend on the NCR forces being spread too thin and the troops are demoralized. That is reserved for that region as opposed to back home where they totally have the advantage. There everyone feels the immediate threat of the Legion and are defending their literal homes as opposed to some far away land that isn't theirs. They don't gotta worry about reinforcements nor supply lines. Most importantly of all is that Caesar would most likely die due to that brain tumor and the Legion will crumble without him as there is nobody to replace him. They already had a plan for Hoover Dam which is why Lanius could replace Caesar but in a bigger invasion they would be screwed as Lanius isnt a good strategist
I would argue that the advantage would be as severe as you let on. I would say that the NCR would still be demoralized after the defeat. People back home don’t want to keep fighting and most in the Army literally contemplate suicide if the Legion comes or just desert the army. Also, speaking of defending their homes, I don’t think they would. Most people in the NCR don’t view themselves as being part of the NCR. They actually dislike/hate being part of the NCR. They don’t want to be a part of the NCR but couldn’t do anything since they were just forcibly taken in without proper assimilation.
I would say they would still have some trouble because their supply lines aren’t exactly secure. Gangs or just the local wildlife could prove detrimental to them since of the NCR having lots of gangs in their Hub and not having gotten rid of the dangerous wildlife.
Caesar could still live since they would have the Followers of the Apocalypse captured. If he still had a tumor in his head, he could just have one of the doctors they treat him so they aren’t crucified. Even if he does die, they would still have Lanius. Which brings me to why I left a comment. Lanius is an amazing strategist and commander. Everyone in the Legion says as much. Even Vulpes himself.
I would say that as soon as the Legion takes the Dam, the NCR is screwed.
@@roderick04 when I said the NCR citizens would defend their homes I didnt mean the NCR as the nation. I meant their actual homes, they wouldn't want an army of raiders coming in and destroying everything. And as I stated before fighting a demoralizing war far away vs fighting in your own backyard are two different things. So Im sure resistance would be very strong especially from the states like The Hub who wanna defend themselves before everyone else. Basically the Legion would have to fight each state one at a time and would heavily struggle as they now wear the shoes of the NCR in that they are spread thin in enemy territory.
And in all of the endings for the Legion its only ever the Courier who heals Caesar. When it comes to the Followers of the Apocalypse he either has them killed or allows them to flee westward and so during all of this he still has the tumor.
@@BobPantsSpongeSquare97 The Legion doesn’t destroy everything. They actually would rather spare towns if given the chance. Also, I’m not sure towns would fight back. If they don’t know what they’re fighting for and who they’re fighting against is like and they don’t want o be apart of the NCR, Why would they fight back?
A resistance maybe could happen but it would be quickly put down since of how well the Legion is at assimilating people. Punishments are severe.
Also if the Courier wasn’t there, which he’s not in this scenario, Caesar would still have the brain tumor. He let them go because he didn’t have a tumor. If he did in this scenario then he wouldn’t be so willing to just let them go or kill them. None of this even matters sense the NCR would crumble or at best be severely handicapped when they lose Hoover Dam.
@@roderick04 losing hoover dam would be very temporary due to lots of troopers flooding from ranger stations and camps to fight, and the legion would be severely injured just by the battle so when reinforcements come upon them. They will be cleared out before even getting to camp searchlight
Thanks for the great video! There's way to many "ave, true to caesar" in this comment section though.
Ave, true to Caesar
You can be true to Caesar....but the House always wins 😉
@@rejvaik00 You guys can choose the sociopaths, while I pick the less evil faction, the NCR.
@@kingnamor777 lol 😂
The wisdom of Caesar is that even if the Legion loses, it wins. The point will be made. This is just my own conjecture (one of the privileges of being a frumentarius).
Hah, Indeed you are a spy... But not a Legion Spy. LEGIONARIES! WE HAVE A PROFLIGATE!
Ave, true to Caesar
Honestly, even in a war with perfect infrastructure, the immense manpower and technological and industrial (most importantly) of the NCR would prove superior. Should they push far enough, he would be overwhelmed
@Indoctrinated Truth honestly, I've seen enough rebuttals to this argument
F.e. it is impossible for the current us gov't to do that, so it is logical to assume the ncr can't do that to the surviving lakes
You are the goat of Fallout theories creators
Thank you dude!
Your videos are excellent, really wonderful opening monologue.
True to Caesar !
It's pronounced Caesar, not Caesar.
@@callyk-pax3676
lol, I did pronounce it with a K .
Ave Amicus
Here are some constructive criticism I have of this.
Legion victory over the dam is guaranteed. However his victory over the Mojave wont happen overnight. It would take months, possibly even years for the Legion to have full dominance over the Mojave Region. They have Fiends, Boomers, local settlements, House and even the Brotherhood to conquer first before controlling the Mojave. Caesar is used to conquering uneducated tribes in the east, however you can argue that he has not fought against well armed and well educated factions such as the BoS, or House. He did fight a well armed and organized NCR, but was nearly wiped out and only prevailed through the incompetence of Oliver. Assuming Chief Hanlon survived, same as Hsu, months or even a year would give them ample time to prepare for an invasion. Let's not forget that Lanius regarded Hanlon as a brilliant strategist, and attacking the Outpost would be extremely tough, especially after being dug in. You can argue that NCR would have to deal with refugees fleeing to to the Mojave, which is a very good point and an advantage for the Legion. But this assumes that this advantage can be taken advantage of while it happened, the Mojave would still take possibly YEARs before being fully under the thumb of Caesar, if he is still alive. Giving NCR time to filter the refugees through, or simply turn them away.
Overall, your opinion of how the results turn out is fair. However it kind of falls flat when you include how long and hard it would be for Caesar to conquer the entire Mojave, I never liked the ending credits of Fallout cause it always made it sound like the Caesar wipes these Mojave factions out in one fatal swoop. Which would be extremely unlikely unless the ending credits assumed the courier did all that or helped, which is more believe. But without a courier, taking out these factions would take years. Those years are valuable to Hanlon to fortify the I-15 or the Outpost. Knowing how brilliant of the tactician he is, he can pull of a successful defense against the legion. At which point, all NCR has to do is wait for the Caesar to die.
I also hold the opinion that the Caesar would likely still die in the conquest of the Mojave. I don't think he would seek medical treatment until his dream of having it all came true, he had plenty of opportunities to kidnap a Follower or someone who can repair the auto-doc but never did. Assuming it would take years to conquer the Mojave, Caesar would likely not survive it.
Imo, the hub would be like stalingrad, except way worse for the legion, which would have to supply a large battle across the entire long 15
Well the Mojave was NCR nam, it’s only fair the Legion gets a Stalingrad. But the house always wins either way.
Ave true to caesar.
Ave, amicus
Ultimately I cannot see any ending except an independent/House Mojave. Both the Legion and the NCR are overstretched and too ambitious. They both have far too many weaknesses to continue to push. Additionally, they both have geography against them. The Legion is in a strong defensive position with a massive river and lake border, plus cliffs to make any advances into Legion territory hard. Problem is, that this also makes projecting force difficult. It would be easy to out maneuver Caesar's armies to cut off supplies by attacking the Dam, and any alternative crossings they may have. Meanwhile, the NCR has to make their way through narrow mountain passes to get to the Mojave. We already see how they cannot properly hold the land they claim to own. The Families are organized and influential enough that they could easily sway the rest of the Mojave. Uprisings would be frequent, and eventually the people of the Mojave would end up free, one way or another.
Crucifixion is a good deterrent to rebellion
Not to mention that house has an army that doesn't need to eat, sleep, fear disease, they can also not be hindered by darkness of night, and they are self repairing
Ncr chads been real quiet since this dropped
Nah bro. I'm here.
>NCR
>chads
Pick one and only one
@@TheOwneroftheIC Kinda strange that you put Chads twice
@@estonalexander704 NCR clearly stands for Not Chad Republic
oi wanna read about chads there here you go pals : fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Caesar%27s_Legion#Legionaries
In Fallout 4 the Vertibirds are depicted as prototype models of the ones we see in prior games
Still pretty cool though
I’m pretty sure it’s the opposite. I think the ones in Fallout 4 are the “base model” and the ones the Enclave used in Fallout 3, and included in New Vegas are the “gunship Model” Vertibird. You can clearly tell one was made for transport, and one was made for combat/rapid transport.
@Nagger That too.
Umm, no? Those are Enclave vertibirds taken from the Washington Enclave, and they use the same type as the Enclave in Fallout 2, and NCR uses the Enclave vertibirds as well. They are the same.
@@beepbop6542 The enclave vertibird in 2 is very differnt from 3 and 4 and 76 competly differnt landing gear system.
Hopefully if there is a sequel to New Vegas, it'll use the ending where Lanius decides to head back to the east to strengthen his forces, I'd love to see how the legion is affected under Lanius's rule, it'd also be kind of cool if they used the ending where Mr. House is just disabled in his pod, as a little secret for the player to find
I have always been a firm believer that under Lanius the Legion would fracture, the 86 tribes were united by Caesar's cult of personality, without it, theyd split.
@@admiralhackett7686 They'd definitely fracture if Lanius tried invading California. But I'm sure that if Lanius didn't assault Hoover Dam and went back to the east, the tribes wouldn't dare split under the watchful gaze of the Monster of the East. If he smells weakness in a tribe, then there'd only be *85* tribes united by Caesar's cult of personality. Which is why it'd be cool to see a legion reformed from years of being ruled by the Legate. It's been hinted that there's more to Lanius than the stories about him. Maybe he's a lot smarter than we thought. Maybe he'll actually give his army fucking shields to provide some defense against bullets. There are a lot of interesting things that can happen if he goes back east.
@@admiralhackett7686 That would largely depend on a few factors. If Lanius and/or the Praetorians played it out right, they could easily make it seem like Caesar had become a god, and use that faith in the deified Caesar to rally their society around, much like Augustus did in our own world to gain popular support.
I suppose it also depends on how strongly the tribes remember their own identities outside being a tribe conquered by the Legion, the earlier ones are likely extinct, but the more recent ones like the one out of Denver? They might still have a few who remember the before times.
Lanius is more of a commander, he's not the type of person that leads, he's the one that gives orders
I see the legion making a council and electing a new "emperor" that can and also wants to fulfill Caesar's vision for the legion
The legion sure is interesting and I wish they had more content in the game
Actually, on a Legion playthrough, it's heavily implied that the Courier will be the next Emperor/Empress because of a single action by Ceasar - the minting of a new coin in the Courier's likeness. In ancient Rome, To Be, as well as current Emperors would often have their likeness minted on a coin.
somewhat relevant to the video, but I think there's quite a few things that people have been overlooking when analyzing the factions in NV, so I'm gonna list them out here
1. People really seem to be falling into the trap of just, taking characters like Ceaser and Lanius' word for everything they say when well, they're Characters, not the voice of the devs. like obviously the Legion are gonna call the NCR a dying empire because that's what they want to believe, Thats how they justify their crusade against the NCR, because they have this misguided idea that its 'inevitable' that the NCR will fall and that it's their god given duty to make sure that happens, when its just plain and simply not. when talking to pretty much any other character outside of the Legion, there's no real indication that the NCR as a whole is in any state of significant decline. sure, the Mojave campaign isn't going very well, but thats JUST the Mojave campaign.
2. there also seems to be this idea that the NCR NEEDS Hoover dam, Helios One and the Mojave as a whole in the same way that Mr House or Yes Man or even The Legion need the mojave. which again isn't true. remember, for the majority of NCR history, they have existed WITHOUT control of the Mojave, and while it is certainly a very valuable resource to them, they dont rely upon it to survive as a nation, hell thats one the biggest major issues (morally, anyway) with the NCR! that they're trying to take the Mojave because they WANT it, not because they NEED it.
House and Yes Man can't sustain themselves without the Mojave for, well, very obvious reasons. And the Legion, while not needing the Mojave *specifically,* do need to conquer somewhere, as their entire civilisation is based upon conquering and capturing new slaves, and so long as Ceaser and Lanius' Ego keep them fixated on the west, they Legion will likely bash their head against the brick wall of the west until they die, before they cut their losses and try to expand North, East or South.
3. Ceaser's Legion has more or less put all of their eggs in the basket of the Mojave, while the NCR still has a VERY large military force in California. obviously the ENTIRE Legion army isn't in the Mojave, but the vast majority of it is. while one of the largest contributing factors the NCR's difficulties in the Mojave, is that not ENOUGH of the military back home has been assigned to the Mojave. take Colonel Hsu (I think it was him, anyway) complaining about how most of the NCR Heavy troopers are "back home protecting brahmin baron's property" instead of being assigned to the frontlines of the conflict. and given the Legion aren't exactly rolling over the undersupplied, undermanned expeditionary force of the Mojave, I highly doubt they would fair very well against a Properly supplied, full force NCR Military.
4. that the NCR's lack of Morale in the Mojave would translate into a broken spirit fighting in the actual NCR territory. keep in the mind the main reason NCR morale among the soldiers is so low in the Mojave, is that they could be the victim of a horrific atrocity protecting people and land that they really couldn't give a rat's ass about, but if the fighting took place in California itself, the Legion's tendency to commit atrocious war crimes would likely only serve to Galvanize the People and Soldiers of the NCR against the Legion, ironically strengthening their resolve to push them OUT of California, you only need to look at the result of German Atrocities in places like Greece, Yugoslavia, Poland and the USSR during WW2 to see that the result would be nothing but more intense and vitriolic fighting, and considering the NCR military is generally far better equipped than the Legion, this would likely lead to very heavy Legion casualties, with very little to show for it, not to mention that if even if they did somehow win, there would likely be VERY heavy resistance to Legion rule.
Did you forget Mr House exists and had like thousands of mark 2 Securitrons under the legion base
Did you forget without a suitable party that chip ain't getting nowhere. And definitely not in Fortification Hill.
Also Ceasar orders them destroyed. Best he could get out of them is a bunch of salvage
Ave, AMICUS
I disagree with your stance on Vertabirds because that's just game mechanics and not actual lore.
There’s been no confirmation on how strong the Vertibirds are, so it’s his best guess.
I don't think from a lore standpoint the legion could shoot down a vertibird. In game it takes about 10 seconds of sustained fire from a minigun to destroy one. Since only the higher ranked legionarres use weapons like 12.7 sub machine guns and combat rifles, i think the best they could do is shoot it enough to make it retreat, but it would only come back repaired in a later battle with better armor(right now in real life there is already armor for helicopters that can be effective vs 7.62 full metal jacket and the armor would of gotten a lot better until 2077.) Also if you recruit the remnants to either side, they come in on a vertibird, and theres no doubt they were being shot at the whole time from whatever side they were fighting.
Well in a videogame of course it takes a few hits but realistically i can't see a vertibird being able to survive more than two shots.
*with a rocket launcher
And again, Ceasar is not unwilling to give his troops these kinds of weapons if he has to
Fun fact, TWO major military bases are at Barstow/Yermo AKA the Hub. Slim chance of a victory over the HUB.
exactly, and if they get past the hub, good luck getting past the cajon pass, thats a death trap
They don't necessarily have to attack the Hub outright to gain control of it. Hear me out.
The NCR would be expecting the Legion to attack the Hub, so they would station most of their soldiers in and around the Hub, leaving outlying areas like Junktown, which is already less defendable, even more undefended with less troops, so instead of going South towards the Hub, Lanius' army could simply just go North and sack Junktown instead, allowing for a much more one sided fight, and paving the way for the Legion to blitz their way to the Boneyard, which, once sacked, or at the very least surrounded, would simultaneously cut off the Hub (and a third of NCR territory) from the core states that likely supply the area with food while cutting off Shady Sands and the Northern territories from the crucial water trade in the Hub. Now all the Legion would need to do at this point is just wait for all the soldiers in the South to starve to death and the people of the Hub would have no way to resist, or they, too would starve. While it may seem like a stretch to say that the Legion could not only take the Boneyard but also occupy basically the entire I-15, let me first say that the battle for the Boneyard could likely be made much easier for the Legion if their frunentarii simultaneously caused the gangs in the Hub to revolt, like Yaboii talked about, which probably wouldn't be powerful enough to take the city outright, but would still undoubtedly be enough of a distraction to occupy the large amount of soldiers sent to protect the Hub from counter-attacking the Legion at the Boneyard, which itself would likely be severely underprotected due to the NCR sending the bulk of its forces to the front lines. Secondly, the Legion is much more suited for attacking locations rather than defending them. Both Caesar and Lanius know this, so I think that instead of occupying and defending fixed locations, the Legion would mobilize the bulk of their forces to patrol the I-15 against supply caravans and soldiers. Once the Legion starves out and occupies all the Major towns South of the I-15, the NCR would be extremely hesitant to attack any of them outright, fearing that the Legion would just start executing civilians (and probably rightly so.) Instead, the NCR would likely try to implement more subtle tactics, such as supporting a civilian revolt in places like the Hub or the Boneyard, but with the bulk of their Rangers having died in the Mojave, the NCR would be hard pressed to find enough skilled people to accomplish such a task.
Edit:
To cap off this essay on a fictional war in a fictional universe, I think that at this point the Legion's best option would be to continue dividing and conquering by opening up a second theatre to cut off the northern NCR from Shady Sands. This could best be accomplished if the Legion first (and likely before their initial invasion of the NCR) expanded their Northern territory right up to the NCR's Northern frontier towns of Vault City and New Reno, probably requiring them to annihilate the White Legs, the 80's, and possibly some Vipers and Khans as well, but would ultimately allow the Legion to spring an attack on New Reno, likely with the help of one or more of the families that control the city (like they did in New Vegas with the Omertas & White Gloves). It may not seem all that believable that the Legion could amass a second army while Lanius is carving up Southern California, but since the Legion already has plans to expand North, evident by Ulysses' interaction with the White Legs, we can assume that the Legion has at least a small force near Zion itself, and could likely draw in more within the Legion to absorb the 80's and the other aforementioned tribes, the new recruits from which, combined with the help of one or more of the families that control the New Reno would likely be enough to shift the balance of power in the Legion's favor. Once the Legion takes New Reno, it would probably be a similar plan to the other Army's in the South: Rush to the Coast to cut off a third of the NCR from the core states. An additional benefit for the Legion in the North would be the large amount of tribals in and around Arroyo, which, once assimilated, would only add to their ranks.
So before we get into the Legion's strategy for ending the war, as well as the NCR, let's take this time to do a little re-cap: In the South, Legate Lanius' main army has sacked Junktown and the Boneyard, simultaneously cutting off the supply lines to and from all Southern NCR States such as the Hub, Dayglow, and free Baja, all of which would inevitably fall under his control after enough of the soldiers and civilians starve out and give in to Legion rule. In the North, the Legion was able to quickly overrun the city of New Reno by convincing one or more of the families there to stage a surprise attack within the city, causing chaos among the ranks of the soldiers stationed there, allowing the Legion to swoop in and take control. Once the Legion took control of New Reno, their army in the North made a mad dash towards the Coast (probably Navarro or some other defensible location) to cut off the trade routes to and from the NCR's Northern settlements, namely Vault City, Redding, Modoc, Klamath and Arroyo. Addition, while the Legion's army in the North was bidding their time annihilating caravans along the I-80, they were also able to make quick work of the many tribes near Arroyo, which had been slowly softened down by the NCR's way of life, and were nothing compared to the tribals that the Legion consumed in Arizona and beyond.
I'd also like to take this time to address some of the other Major factions in California that could have an impact on the war, namely the Shi and the Brotherhood of Steel. First, I believe the Brotherhood would in all likelihood remain in hiding, fearful of both the NCR and the Legion after losing most of their army to the NCR years prior. Secondly, I believe the Shi would largely stay within the confines of San Francisco, but could potentially be swayed either by the Legion's Frunentarii who would give them false promises of renewed glory as soldiers in the Legion, in an attempt to use them in battle against the NCR much like they did with the Great Khans in the Mojave, or alternatively, they could be approached by NCR ambassadors who would try to forge an alliance, possibly with some kind of generous post-war economic benefits, if they in turn help the NCR supplement the great number of Rangers that they lost in the Mojave with operations that require advanced technology or specialized skills, like with the liberation of towns I talked about earlier, kind of like how the NCR used the Brotherhood in New Vegas, but on a bigger scale. As for who the Shi would ally with in the end (if anybody) I can't answer for certain, but I could definitely see them having a bias against the NCR after years of them trying to annex them, and that coupled with the fact that the Frunentarii would likely use their proud, war-like culture against them like they did with the Khans, I could definitely see them siding with the Legion, but I'm not entirely sure.
Anyways, currently in this hypothetical scenario, 2/3rd's of the NCR have been captured by the Legion, and the only thing remaining is their Capitol city of Shady Sands, as well as a handful of minor settlements. At this point, the NCR economy would be in a state of total collapse due to confidence in their fiat currency being basically nothing, as well as most trading companies either submitting to Legion rule or collapsing entirely. This would cause the NCR's already strained logistics to fall apart; do you really think that Shady Sands alone has enough agricultural power to feed all of their citizens as well as the inevitable cascade of refugees, let alone an army big enough to fight the Legion? It's quite clear to me that the NCR would be on the verge of death at this point, and the Legion would be poised to lay siege to the city on all four sides. Even if what's left if their undersupplied army could by some miracle repel the Legion's advance, they would just be delaying the inevitable.
And that's why I think that the Legion could, under the most ideal circumstances possible, win against the NCR.
@@mason2012 problem with that is the brotherhood and NCR would be allies because in the legion ending the legion sacked the hidden valley bunker and likely did the same to many other factions like the followers and powder gangers meaning that the legion will have little to no allies in NCR territory once word spreads of what happened in the Mojave and not to mention the legion will be facing the Same challenges the NCR did also taking the Mojave is one thing but holding it is going to be difficult even for the legion
@@lorddeathofmurdermountain76 Well number one, the West Coast Brotherhood is said to be in hiding after their war with the NCR, so they're likely in a similar situation the Mojave Chapter was. Secondly, once the Brotherhood would get word of what the Legion did to their chapter in the Mojave, they wouldn't be filled with rage, if anything they would become even more fearful of the outside World if a pack of technologically stunted savages (in their eyes) could wipe out an entire chapter, which leads me to my third and final point about the BoS, which is that they would never ally with the NCR, considering the fact that the Courier has to jump leaps and bounds to get the two factions to work together even under the most ideal circumstances, (and the NCR still thinks less of you for it anyways.) In all likelihood, the Brotherhood would probably just continue their lockdown and try to avoid both factions, much like the way that McNamara quite literally attempted to outlast the NCR in the Mojave.
@@mason2012 i can't see them going into lockdown maybe relocating further north or probably enter into a cold war with the NCR but would still be considered enemies the brotherhood would likely use guerrilla warfare against the legion they are small but still formidable they would stay under ground(figuritfly and literally) and ambush legion traders and caravans basically they will do everything they can to cripple the legion but they would still have to stay hidden from both NCR and legion the NCR is having trouble standing with a crippled economy and years of war the legion just took the Mojave they are stretched thin but because of their leadership they will be heading into NCR in as little as 6 months after Hoover dam is taken because they believe it's their destiny
the NCR and Enclave Vertibirds are V2 Gunships, the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 uses V1s which are much weaker
and V2s are hard to put down so the Brotherhood in Fallout 3 had to make Tesla Cannons to do it better, and V2s can drop mininukes as ordinance and are armed to the teeth with weapons
I want Caesar to get more books or Lanius to come to a Damascus road experience and be tempered or something cuz otherwise its Mr.House for me
It's not a stretch to say the legion can win in NV but in the end the courier lanius conversation says it best
"NCR's weakness is its size - it'll take your entire army to hold the West."
Lanius: "That does not mean we would not succeed."
"Eventually - but moving your whole army West means losing the East. You can't hold both."
The writing is on the wall and even lanius sees it the west would be the Russia to the legions Germany the west would take up all their resources leaving the east exposed
Like the lore videos keep it up!
Glad you like them!
I like these fallout lore explorations into stuff that isn't mentioned in depth in the actual games.
The best option for the Legion would be to play the long-game, and consolidate their hold over their existing territories post-conquest of the Mojave. Not only would this allow them to take the time to put down inevitable flare-ups of rebellions from slaves and recently conquered tribes that haven't been fully assimilated, but it will also allow the institutional and ecological flaws within the NCR to grow more acute. Between diminishing water supplies, projected food insecurity within ten years, and the monetary issues you already mentioned, the NCR is already facing a number of crises that could severely wound it.
If the Legion attacks before this, Caesar would just inadvertently breath new life into the Republic, as he would remind the NCR citizenry of what the likely alternatives are. Wait long enough for the NCR's institutions to crumble due to inability to manage these difficulties, and if the situation gets bad enough, many might prefer the safe tyranny of the Legion to the ineffectual governance of the NCR, allowing the synthesis that Caesar desires. The only problem is that Caesar doesn't really have the time to let that play out, due to his age and illness, and Lanius doesn't have any interest in allowing the Legion to be changed in such a fashion.
I think that the only mistake is to think that there wouldnt be highly fortified military bases between the mojave and the hub that would deny them entry.
The NCR was building forts all over the colorado with concreate, if the Caravan Creamsom HQ is anything to go by, the west must be filed with well fortified settlements and outpost to defend from rainders
lmao you mean Crimson Caravan? Not Caravan Creamson... 😂
I do see your point though. I noticed that as well about the location. We already know the NCR was getting concrete from Quarry Junction so they probably have quarries out West somewhere too.
Each advance would be more challenging than the last
The Mojave outpost is a bottle neck. If utilized correctly the NCR could hold it for a good long while much like Spartans did with Thermopylae. But it would eventually fall to Caesar or his Legion under legate Lanius if he had passed away. Still if done right it could be a costly battle for the Legion.
One analysis I've heard predicted that the NCR, after being forced into total war for its very survival, would become far more militarized and ironically could embrace many of the Legion's warrior ideals.
Kinda disagree on the vertibird comparison. The Vertibirds in the past Fallout games and FO4 are different with the FO4 Vertibird has lesser armaments, using two fixed machine guns and one or two door mounted mini-guns and lack of armor being more like a Utility transport same to a UH-1 while the Vertibird in the past fallouts being much more armed with a gatling laser, side mounted mini-gun, two rocket pods and two racks for mini-nukes and has a thicker hull plating much like the Russian Hind Attack Helicopter
I like the history lesson on the currency seen in New Vegas. No one else wants to talk about this.
The big thing I feel like you missed is the fact that after losing the battle of the dam the NCR retreat to the Mojave outpost at the border to California. This is an incredibly defensive position which I think would be where the legion would be stopped.
its confirmed ingame that the ncr completely leave the mojave if legion win. It's not that defensible
As the Bull move west,it head get caught in the Bear teeth and it rear get trampled by the Dog claw.
@@poeepee1715 during the final battle of hoover dam while you talking to lanius, one of the 100 speech option would make lanius say that the legion have already move fall too much troop away from the east, anymore and they won't be able to hold it. The only group with enough resistence out east against the legion would be the hangdog
@@poeepee1715 understandable, have a nice day.
Incredible Video
I always wondered what the industrial capacity of the NCR was like by that time. If the NCR is supposed to be analogy to the US, then the Mojave is the frontier which mean the cities in California would be like the east coast of the US in the 19th century. They'd have factories and large populations with an economy that would be fairly advanced. I always assumed that even if the Legion took the Mojave, the NCR could get their entire nation on war footing and bulldoze the Legion back out.
I think that the long 15 would be a slightly larger problem than outlined here. As you kinda hinted at, the sheer amount of water you need to even transport a small group is huge.
I think even with Hoover Dam, it would take a LONG time for them to get it and producing enough water to actually send his army (just as is) up the long 15 would take time. The NCR, at the same time, would also be met with an absolutely ferocious response. This isn't New Vegas, where most soldiers simply wanted to go home. This IS their home, and it's important to remember the home field advantage in that sort of situation.
I also think even with the spies the Legion would suffer from actual behind the lines issues in the NCR, people who will sabotage and take the risk to hurt the Legion
There's also a larger presence of the Rangers in mainland California, which would make it VERY difficult for the Legion to place spies that don't immediately get curbstomped by Ranger Counter Ops.
You fail to mention that Arizona and California border each other, and Legion forces could also conquet California from the Interstate 10 and the Interstate 40. The Legion forces in the Mohave, are obviously not the only Legion Forces in existence. The Legion obviously and Logically has military garrisons stationed near the border of California and Arizona. Why are you focusing on one Legion Army from the Mohave makes no sense to me from a Military perspective
Good observation people often forget that the Legion has a huge border with the NCR beyond the Mojave
@@krzysztofkowalski6681 if I run a country and I only have an army of 20,000 men. Do I take all 20,000 or do I take a certain portion when trying to invade somebody else? Obviously I leave a certain portion behind. On top of that, the soldiers who stay behind are usually scattered around in different Military garrisons all over my country. It's this Hollywood mindset people have. They really don't know basic military tactics
Yea that's what I'm wondering too. I'm surprised no one ever bring up that possibility.
Ave, true to Caesar, may his reign be long and fruitful.
The Legion could absolutely destroy the NCR but it would be impossible to genuinely conquer all of it.
Can you do a video about Texas in this time?
Tbf the fallout map is like really downscaled. The Mojave outpost us probably alot larger and defended than we imagine
If it took the Legion two attempts and four years to conquer Hoover Dam, I imagine it would take multiple attempts and at least a decade before they can conquer the Hub. Continuing to rapidly expand westward is not in the Legion's best interest, although I doubt Caesar would be able to realize that, given his egotistical mindset.
The first attempt to conquer the Dam only failed because Joshua Graham was incompetent, and subsequently lost a large force of veteran legionairries, forcing Caesar to hold back for four years and rebuild his Legion.
@National Christian Front Joshua took the Dam and then walked right into an obvious trap, if that isnt incompetence then what do you call it? He successfully accomplished his mission, then overextended himself directly into Hanlon's hands. The failure of the first assualt on the Mojave is unequivocally Joshua's responsibility.
@National Christian Front ahh yes I have orders to pursue the enemy, so I should definitely blindly send my best troops into a dense un-scouted urban environment.
@National Christian Front the commanders were picked off by snipers, the veteran Legionairies were killed in Boulder. You'd think a person who isnt incompetent would halt his blind advance to regroup when his command structure is in disarray, wouldnt you?
@@Sebomai-b8i if you are on a battlefield and you see all your enemies turn tail and run of course you are going to give chase and try and kill them while they are routing. And even if Graham realized that it was a trap I doubt he would of been able to tell his troops and give orders because all the commanders and high ranking officers were dead. Hindsight is always 20/20
If they took the Hub, they would have to advance technology IMO, This would create Caesar's main goal between the East and West, which is to have his well disciplined and obedient army integrated with the NCR policies and numbers. I mean- Ave, True to Caesar.
So, even in victory the legion will probably not survive.
If Ceaser dies from his brain injury you’ll have the next guy in the line of secession stepping up to fill his shoes
Key word being *”If”*
@@Peter_Turbo4 that doesn't mean that person is gonna be universally supported.
Lanius for instance, he hates Vulpes and Vulpes probably feels the same about Lanius. There could be infighting within the legion to see who is and who isn't a good successor, considering Caesar doesn't appear to have a child.
@@felipem7626 I don’t think they hate each other they just disagree in their tactics
@@raquaza7777 lanius very clearly speaks of Vulpes with disdain. As well as he points out that "there are those in the east that would wish to see me fail"
@@Peter_Turbo4 And that *for now* being Lanius, yeah the Legion would definitely not survive.
The question is how well equipped is the New Californian Army? We know they posses at least a division or two ( Lee Oliver is a general, I assume he leads a Division) although the Battalion is their largest unit we encounter.
We also know they posse motorized units in pre war trucks used for either transport or logistics, since Camp MaCaren has a motor-pool of sorts. So they can move at the least company sized elements across surviving ore war roads, not to mention the powder gangers tell the player the NCR has rebuilt some of the rail lines, that would give them some edge in logistics and transport.
Now I’d argue they also must have some form of artillery, either refurbished pre war guns like the Boomers or post war built, like mortars or at largest some kind of 75mm pack howitzers, if the Minutemen can build fixed artillery, then the NCR can build portable artillery.
Now Doctrine is no doubt based off ore war U.S military, like our ‘50s and ‘60s Cold War era defense in depth or captured/defected Enclave teachings. Dug in troops, backed by artillery, able to be resupplied by vehicle or rail, with reconnaissance by vertibirds? I think the NCR’s forces might fair well in a larger campaign against the Legion on their home ground.
You're assuming that the legion can operate as effectively deep in NCR territory as they could just behind Hoover dam. there's no reason to believe that they had an extensive intelligence Network built up already at the hub, and if they didn't it's unlikely that they would be able to recruit the local gangs in time for their offensive. you're also assuming that the gangs at the hub don't already know that the legion lied to their previous allies. Despite the fact that at least one of the gangs has confirmed connections with the powdergangers.
Additionally, the reasons that you gave for the legion winning the Battle of Hoover dam were that the legion had a massive element of surprise, and that an incompetent general was leading the NCR. Neither of these will be true at the hub. and it's safe to say that the legion would have been facing harassment the entire time that it was marching towards the hub, leaving them already more exhausted than the NCR who are defending on their home turf. And they'll be approaching from a predictable direction against a fortified location manned by troops who realize that this is do or die.
I think that even you must be able to see that the legion taking the hub is a wildly optimistic claim.
Ave!
I don't know for a fact but the NCR in my eyes would have stumbled upon pre war jets or tanks, perhaps they're too broken to be repaired? Who knows with the information we have, perhaps the NCR can produce some sort of military vehicle
What happens if the Legion invades the NCR through the I-10 or I-40?
A factor that is excluded in this analysis is outside forces.
If the NCR was to face an invasion from Oregon during this time, either by a super mutant warband, or a particularly ferocious tribal warlord, it would end, fast. But NCR also has a valuable ally - the Shi. They have access to a large population of the Bay, best technology and a formidable air force. They wouldn't be willing to help in Nevada, but they are tied to the Hub with trade. On the other hand, the loyalties of Vault City and New Reno are questionable. They could side with the Legion, certain they can't be reached. The Western Brotherhood could have been a formidable ally to the NCR, but it has been destroyed.
The legion, in turn, has possible threats from all sides. It's position is much worse - California is a natural fortress, Arizona is not. Any faction in Mexico could use this campaign as the perfect opportunity to slash and burn all of Legion's territory. And we have no idea as to what the state of Mexico is now - there could be a powerful empire there. A state that is likely very hostile - the Legion isn't subtle with diplomacy. Although even a raider gang ferocious enough would do the job. The plains of Mississippi may be a home to a nomadic culture that is particularly nasty at warfare and would see this as the perfect opportunity to raid the shit out of eastern provinces of the Legion. God knows Rome suffered from nomadic invasions from the steppes. Even the 80s, the current powerhouse of Utah, may want to join in on the fun. And lastly, Texas may be a threat of it's own, though we can only speculate of what kind.
In short, the slightest change on the global balance of power can tip the scales. Neither NCR nor the Legion exist in a vacuum.
Actually no, thanks to the actions of Tandi and our character, the loyalty of Reno and Vault city cannot be questioned . The family that rules Reno is on very good terms with the NCR
( they are in charge because of them ) and thanks to special regulations, Reno is Las Vegas of California. And in the case of Vault city , they are addicted to electricity that comes from Geck , which since NCR (theoretically) abolished racism is a loyal city of the republic .
In my playthroughs I go for a legion ending, keeping Caesar alive. But in Lonesome road I nuke the long 15. As Ulysses says, its a wall that will take time for Caesar to cross.
As long as Caesar regroups for a few years after taking New Vegas, I believe his campaign into the NCR would be more successful.
Holding Vegas, and the water, electricity, and commerce it provides. Setting up trade routes using the NCR's infrastructure is already the first steps towards synthesis. With New Vegas as the capital. Caesar would need to focus on establishing the homefront before any more military conquests. And the nuked Long 15 is a good reason to take some time to catch their breath.
I dont disagree that Caesar would have wanted to march immediately. But if any of his council (including perhaps the courier himself) were to suggest biding their time. Having the frumitari infiltrate and cause subterfuge. While also waiting for the NCR's economy to start falling apart, while the New Vegas strip cause the legion economy to grow. I think Caesar would listen. And within a decade, The NCR would be conquered.
Could you do one on an NCR invasion of Caesers legion
NCR will be unable to take over Arizona. Legion has accomplished something that no other faction did... Create their own culture. To add to that, NCR is overextended and too corrupt as it is... Ironically, even if they make gains in Arizona, the campaign will kill them.
Lad The Mojave Campaign (Pacification of the Mojave) was the NCR's own Guadalcanal campaign in terms of the numbers of casualties , an NCR invasion of Caesers legion territory would be it's own Vietnam war , also as Boba said : "even if they make gains in Arizona, the campaign will kill them."
@@who7657 I agree. NCR is too corrupt and incompetent to control the California, Las Vegas and Arizona. And Caesar Legion doesn't have infrastructure, important pre-war technologies and guerrilla war tactics/ hit and run tactics like NCR. Which accurately means Caesar's Legion can't control Arizona, Los Vegas and California. No matter which side wins. Both will inevitably die together. Because war, war never changes.
Would it be any different if the courier operated within the Mojave at maximum efficiency, in the name of the Legion? Like gave them all the help you can do in the game.
The Mojave outpost is a very easy to hold location and if you side with Caesar the ncr fortifies it a lot. I feel like they could make a minefield on the bottom of the hill and easily hold it for a while
Stampede brahmin or bighorners through, minefield gone.
@@DJSpike-ft9yw shoot Brahmin with gun, minefield stays
@@DJSpike-ft9ywthen the Cazadores come when the bodies start to smell
@@DJSpike-ft9yw
And if the NCR, with their higher position, decide that they wanna start picking them off before they get close? Because it would take awhile for the Legion to gather a large enough pack, and the NCR is gonna keep them under watch the whole time.
1st Recon would start putting rounds into foreheads long before the Legion gathers enough.
personaly, I think Mojave outpost would already be impossible to take for the Legion for reasons like
The NCR having the highground and ranged weapons
The Legion unable to use Frumentarii for logistical(and moral) advantage since the Mojave Outpost now *is* the frontline
No hidden 'Tunnels' like Hoover Dam where the Legion can force CQC
I think that the Legion could disguise Frumentarii as refuges to slip past the Mojave Outpost
Legion spent almost decade trying to take the Mojave. The legion knows how to bid it’s time. They’re not gonna blitzkrieg from Hoover Dam to The Hub, they’re gonna conquer Nevada, fortify the area, and start building up their army. Give it another decade or two, and even if Legate Lanius takes over, they’ll have an army that ranges from 50,000-100,000 easily. That’s the one thing the Legion has on the NCR: Numbers. One to One is a no doubt fight, but it’s not One to One, it never is. It’s one to thousand.
But Lanius is a monster.
He's a warrior, not a leader.
He doesn't have Caesar's vision.
While Edward Sallow marches into the Strip victoriously and takes over the city, if Lanius is Caesar, he attacks the Strip as if it's a military target, sacks and pillages the city, killing half of the population and enslaving the other half.
TRUE TO CAESAR