@@Titan13335 it’s the people behind the games. No Man’s Sky was shit but because the developers had morals and knew people wouldn’t buy it if it was bad they kept updating it and it’s a great game now. And not to mention that obsiadian is a great studio overall.
As a player you get pretty good insight of current Mojave situation in just first encounters with NCR and Legion. When you enter Primm, you find out that: prisoners broke out of local NCR controlled prison, formed an outlaw group called "Powders gangers", killed sheriff and his wife, and pinned locals into one building. NCR is just standing by, in 2 tents, helpless do to anything. Then you approach Nipton. You see smoke rising. Further in, Powder gangers are crucified on telephone beams and entire town is in flames. Its like a scene from Blood Meridian. You advance towards town hall just so you get completely surrounded by bunch of weirdos, in like 2 seconds. These guys don't fuck around. Their leader, in creepy voice, tells that he'll spare you from crucifixion, just so you can spread the tale of carnage. Later towards mid game you also see NCR troppers getting shitfaced in New Vegas, while Ceasar has child soldiers running drills. NCR needs less paper pushing and more whatever Boone is doing, if they want to win this war.
Yea the issue was the NCR barley controller Vegas and not consolidated power due to the geopolitics of the region. They also massively underfunded the projects which is basically a attempt at colonization. It should be noted NCR actually dealing with the region instead of legion which mostly just attacking actually trying to control things.
My takeaway from the NCR quests is that if they want to win, they either have to get just as brutal as the Legion against their enemies, or they (by which I really mean, the Courier) have to go above and put in a *lot* of hard work to build coalitions with the peoples of the Mojave to genuinely have their support.
You know, people like to jab Lanius as some kind of one dimensional grug brain monster. Yet you can use logic to talk him down and he knows the Legion's weaknesses. He recognizes that the Legion has issues from his experience in the east. Ulysses says that Lanius is more of a symbol than a man. His origin is unknown, likely made up by Caesar. You get different answers from different people. The whole "legion imploding" assumes that Lanius follows the myth more than the man. If everything known about Lanius is made up by Caesar, then it is hard to really judge him. Personally, the Lanius we see during that brief conversation at the end battle shows he isn't as stupid as most people think. And he can more than likely lead the Legion well, with added support from advisors.
I agree with you Nicholas. Caesar states the Lanius' has no loyalty to the Legion - only to him. But the dialogue with Lanius indicates that the Legion's survival is of the utmost importance to him -even at the cost of his own ego. Caesar wants to conquer the NCR as he sees it as his destiny, whereas Lanius recognizes that doing so might spell the end for the Legion itself.
@RadTheLad Yeah that's true although we don't know the exact context for that is. Assuming the courier got drunk, tripped on a cactus, and died... There's quite a few ways that particular scenario could have played out. From the ending, it says Caesar's heirs. It implies multiple people organizing the chase for them. If we assume that Lanius is among them, per your argument, we have to acknowledge his perspective. First- To him, he just witnessed a bunch of power armored people run over the NCR like it was nothing. And unlike Caesar, he doesn't have the foresight to know what the Enclave are. (assuming they had no presence in Legion states) Who are these people? Are they a threat to us? Where did they come from? In his mindset, the logical conclusion would be to send parties after them to gain information. The ending says hundreds but doesn't clarify the time frame. It's very possible that Lanius sent a few men, saw it was idiotic to keep doing it but other leaders disagreed. I do give it to you though, not a good decision. But I find it odd that the ending says they are chased to Arizona. Seems really unlikely that they would survive long in Legion core territory but whatever. Second- If Lanius did go after them, it's basically the go to response. The NCR sees the Enclave, retired or active, as terrorists and war criminals. The Legion's response isn't that idiotic given the context given that the NCR would also do the same thing. I do find it odd that the game doesn't give more endings to the remnants. Seems like an oversight that the faction with a "shoot to kill" policy for Enclave (I assume this is the case since they are terrorists, and if you become a NCR terrorist yourself you are shot on sight) simply lets them go after the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam. Third- I do think your statement is true. A lot of the Legion's doctrine is always going forward. Without Caesar's genius at planning ahead, the Legion would resort to brute forcing their way through any situation. Even if Lanius can be convinced, it doesn't mean he is going to give up. He even says that he will return one day and he looks forward to meeting with you again. (Barter path)
Legate lanius is either protrayed as a dim monster or a smart man depending on who you ask. Vulpes says that "although he is not subtle, he is not dimm, he detects traps and sets his own" and based on the conversation where you can speech/barter him, he can understand the logic and pulls out. On the contrary, he pursues the remnants while loses assasains for no gains, and annilates the strip instead of using it to fuel his campain west. At the very least, if you complete the game sided with the legion and caesar dies, it still shows that he can at least lead the legion enough to make a significant impact on the mojave
The NCR can't even properly protect their president from larpers. House needs Courier 6 to get the poker chip and benny never made it far in the legion camp
@@cowbeanboi412 Not really. The legion had everybody in place. The Courier was just another pawn for their schemes. If he had died in good springs the legion would have taken the dam and vegas. I doubt they could have held either though
@@DarkSeraph95 well the thing is without the courier the legion dies cause Caesar dies by all means caesar is the legion just as house is new vegas Lanius isn't a politician or charismatic It takes the legion 4 years to plan to deal with the mohave garrison as the courier says the legion can hold the west or the east only one not both Yes they can possibly take the dam but they can't hold it once the rest of the ncr military arrives it's over
Well, that's what you get with a faction based on great philosophy, and terrible means. The legion is right, but only in the context of the western wastes. Put them in any other scenario, and they're the default bad guys who can't be reasoned with. But uhh, yeah, I also lost some respect points from NCR supporters after a few strong beers...
@@NorthEevee I always have to side with NCR bcoz of their general treatment of humanity. I cannot deal with the fact that women and the weak are enslaved and brutalised. It’s just not right. I will always join the NCR, no matter the context Caesar’s Legion need destroying
That might be why there is so little in the way of side-missions for the Legion versus the NCR. They've basically done everything in advance - there's barely anything left to do aside from outright assaulting military bases.
@@BIadelores yeah I wish hunting down profligates was more rewarding or had better quests that weren’t bugged like the legion side of ‘put a spell on you’ or many other cut legion quests. …. but the 2 stealth boys every 3 days from Veteran Atticus in the Legion Safe House is the best reward ever like infinite stealth boys
I hate to be that guy but J.E Sawyer stated that they're definitely would have been more legion centric missions had they more time but I love lorewise this could absolutely fit with what you said either way 😎👍
The Legion would definitely won Hoover dam without courier intervention, but if they went with their plan to conquer the NCR they would fail for the same reasons the NCR lost Hoover Dam.
In their current state, yes. However it is impossible to predict how powerful the victory at hoover dam would make the Legion. The Mojave is a wealthy region with a natural capital in Vegas. Furthermore the reputation gained from defeating the NCR (the largest and most powerful nation in west) would have all the other tribes practically begging to join up out of fear of being the next victim. Additionally the NCR has no counter to the legion fumentari. The Legion does not need to conquer all of California wholesale in one go. They can simply grind them slowly, taking one piece after another until the NCR can no longer resist.
@@tylerharris7081 To add to this, the NCR NEEDS the Dam for water and power. If they lose the Dam, people will practically be giving themselves up for just a sip of water.
@@tylerharris7081 Mojave became wealthy with NCR money and the Hoover Dam would be a waste on the luddite Legion. What the Legion faced on Hoover Dam was by no means a reflection of NCR army's true power. A Legion push on the NCR heartland would be the same as to what happened to the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2.
@@VinceOliver04 the legion are not luddites by any means. They use what is available to them and in the east they don't have access to the the same high grade weapons manufacturers the NCR does. We see in the Silver Rush storyline that they legion were willing to buy plasma weapons from the Van Grafs. Furthermore, the whole reason the NCR wants this region so bad is because of it's wealth. The power and water the dam provides alone is a huge deal in a world where both commodities are at a premium. Not to mention the multiple (mostly) intact old world sites such as helios one, the Boomer's home base, and Vegas itself the Mojave wasteland is a land of plenty that both sides desperately want. I will grant that in it's current state it is unlikely the Legion can take the NCR's homeland, but the legion is designed to adapt and grow in strength from the ground up. There is certainly the potential for the Legion to become capable of conquering the NCR.
Well-reasoned. One small discrepancy though: 20:40 - In the Legion ending, Chief Hanlon and all the Rangers in the Mojave fight to the death at Hoover Dam. So command of the NCR would have fallen squarely on Hsu. Doesn't change your point, but it's good to note.
I once had this discussion, where I pointed out this stuff, why Legion would win. Arguments against it were "nah, ncr rangers ingame have op stats. Ncr will win because of it". I had nothing
Stats wise, the NCR is more or less evenly matched to the Legion. Lore wise... Yeah, House domes in everyone's fucking head if the Courier isn't there. Even if he IS dead, which would not be the case given how we're the only one ALLOWED in the damned building House stays at, Caesar isn't doing much better. I think Mitten Squad did a video a while ago going over this whole thing.
@@ttpbroadcastingcompany.4460 the omertas stage a coup of the strip without courier intervention, and that’s not even counting Benny’s own attempt at a coup. Also on the subject of “they’re not allowed in” Not being allowed in the building doesn’t matter for shit if high explosives are at play.
@@alizard7617 It's possible and frankly likely that the fold out gate of the Lucky 38 is as durable as the door to his bunker under Fortification Hill, in which case the Lucky 38 would need to be Vault 0'd to get inside.
Videogame statistics are compromises with the story for the sake of playability, man. It's why Perks make the player stronger without benefitting anyone else unless they're Companions.
The fact that the NCR has any infiltrators goes to show how much less competent they are than the Legion. The Legion has no such problem because, aside from the courier, it's practically impossible to infiltrate the legion. New recruits are forced to fight for their lives and earn promotion through bloodshed and they're tested in such ways constantly. Voicing the slightest bit of disloyalty will certainly result in being crucified, whereas discontentment among the NCR is practically the status quo. Silus is notable for being the only legionnaire that didn't outright kill himself to avoid capture, and he still never gives in to interrogation without the courier's intervention.
There are other ways to infiltrate an organization than just to infiltrate the legion, the NCR would easily infiltrate its civilian population, which has been stated to exist, and exploit the likely discontent with the legion's rule. NCR special operations not just the fucking rangers which are gay as hell btw could also be deployed and interrupt supply lines, somebody needs to be providing the legion with its shitty machettes and football armor somehow. If we are also taking this on a more realistic and nation/army-focused route the NCR could also easily crush the legion, the NCR has a fully developed industrial base and economy, and their ability to produce advanced Vietnam war-era firearms with a few modifications they even have the ability to maintain and operator old APCs and Military helicopters, they also have access to the U.S pacific fleet that wasn't deployed during the great war and have a larger pool they can draw recruits from and basically the state with the largest amount of military bases domestically or one of the largest to back then up and supply spec ops if we were being "realistic" a legion NCR war would be like comparing napoleons grand armee to Rome's legions.
To be fair, Silus was on the verge of spilling the beans. Knowing that a Legion spy was in the base but that Caesar had no intention of helping him was demoralizing Silus & Lt. Boyd was pretty close to just ignoring the NCR's rules against abusing prisoners to torture him.
Yea basically the NCR treat Vegas like a far away colony that is barely controlled. So the NCR is heavily nerved and handicapted at their true power whip caeser has their full power and several spy plans in motion.
Holy shit, I just thought about this and it actually could be possible. There’s literally buttons for decontaminating the tomb and they could just have Caesar lead through there. Holy fuck, that sounds cool as hell.
That is a plot twist I didnt expect, sadly caesar made it almost imposible you know by killing any legionare that even sees such technology, it would be a major fuck you to caesar and what he stands for. Not to mention who is gonna program him in?
I remember loving the NCR back then, but then I understand all the minor faction's reasons for not interacting with or hating them, the NCR just doesn't seem like the kind of faction to align with long-term.
@@theman44ful Legion I'm mixed on, in terms of control, they do a great job to people that care, but they'd probably just move on from that place during that conquest..
@@supergenius6256 The Legion is still basically in a infantile state of conquering and expanding its land. I'm almost certain that given the Legion takes the dam, and the Mojave as well they will change from being a more large moving army of conquerors to actually becoming what one could consider a nation. Caesar himself wants his Legion to have their Rome, New Vegas is that Rome. They would definitely start getting into agriculture more, rebuild and start using the factories scattered around the Mojave, furthering solidifying their position in the Mojave for the long term.
One thing I always find interesting is how Lanius mentions that Caesar has drawn too many troops west that are needed to maintain order in the East. Suggesting he’s not only the bloodthirsty hound everyone assumes him to be, he at least understands the force multipliers needed to maintain order in the regions already conquered. Which shows perhaps if Caesar dies he might be able to repress at least some of the possible splinters the legion may have in their territorial integrity from the losses taking the mojave
I'd bet in that case Vulpes Inculta convinces a few Praetorian Guards to kill Lanius in his sleep, either through bribery or convincing them that Lanius is the one who killed Caesar, and then the Praetorians who were loyal to Lanius kill Inculta. Then one of the Praetorians, someone the Praetorians appoint as their puppet or some other high ranking Legion commander declares himself the new Caesar. It wouldn't be truly Roman otherwise ;)
@@MK_ULTRA420 You forget that the Head Praetorian is also an individual who is just as close to Caesar and would likely be able to claim the title himelf
This really just showcases already know: even if you don't like the Legion, you *GOTTA* respect them. They're damned good at what they do. -NCR never even discovers the existence of the Platinum Chip. Legion on the other hand had a plan set in place to intercept it. It only failed due to....wild luck. (a theme with the Courier) Ulysses refuses the job because he considers his business with you more important than his loyalty to the Legion. If the Courier never delivers the chip, Ulysses intercepts it and House is immediately out of the picture. -Caesar is aware House is trying to make a move and has something under Fortification Hill. He even speaks as though worst-case-scenario, he can absolutely spare the men to stop whatever it is, he'd just prefer using the Courier so he doesn't have to execute good men after. -The Legion has successfully allied with the Great Khans, Omertas, Fiends and has the White Gloves on their radar. The NCR has allied with.....absolutely nobody. They only have allies with the Courier's aid. -It's expected that both Lanius and General Oliver are the type to throw bodies at each other with no regard for thought or strategy. In reality, Lanius will send his men through the generators and lower levels. Here, the range issue is moot. The Legion soldiers will hug corners and jump the NCR at moments when they get close, thus minimizing their range disadvantage and giving them the upper hand. The guys up top are well-geared so they can go toe-to-toe with NCR. General Oliver's only answer is a self-serving room of traps to protect *him* and let a limited amount of troops hold out for a decent amount of time, but in-game evidence also suggests Lanius could cut through this with relative ease. If you listen to the radio, Legion is also absolutely collapsing on them: Fiends attack McCarren, the monorail will get bombed, the Khans provide aid at the damn, the Omertas are attacking the Strip, and there's another Legion force specifically positioned between the Dam and any potential reinforcements. The Legion has thought of everything. -It's worth noting that when making the Boomers side against the faction you've supported, the Legion is the ONLY faction that can eventually beat the Boomers. In terms of power, the Enclave Remnants beat everyone, Legion loses only to the Enclave Remnants (realistically they'd eventually beat them, but the Enclave is able to escape pursuit with a high amount of kills to their name), the Boomers beat everyone 'cept for those two, and then comes the NCR, though even the NCR has high losses amongst their victories. NCR is supposed to be a major faction and yet they lose out to two minor factions. -Ulysses, while not directly working with the Legion, plans to nuke the Long 15. This will cut off the NCR's only remaining supply line, forcing the NCR to abandon the Mojave and leaving New Vegas at the mercy of the Legion. It is *OVERWHELMINGLY* obvious the Legion is the strongest player in terms of warfare. They just absolutely have their shit together in a way that none of the other factions do.
The problem the Legion have is after they have won the strip, they then need to hold it. The legion hands down have a better millitary and generals however economically speaking the NCR are better at production. Speaking with Linaious, he realizes that the Legion only can survive off tribute and raiding. I think what would happen after Ceasers death is his Empire would split amongst his generals. Much like Alexander's and Genghis Khan empires. Which is actually kinda fitting given the original Roman's propensity for cival wars. It posdible that a pissed off NCR Senate would vow to come back even stronger to the Mojave. However I don't think it likely. Anouther commenters compared the NCR position to that of Americas in Vietnam, most likely resulting in an anti war sentiment in the NCR. It's also worth noting that the east isn't the NCR only option of expansion. As Cassidy explains she from a "reformed" northern tribe influenced by the NCR. The NCR would go expand north. It being the easier target. It's also has the advantage of being right next to the Pacific Ocean meaning supply and goods can be transported by ship. Thst said if the NCR piss off Arroyo, its game over. A enraged Choosen One would make the Legion look like harmless in comparison.
@@struanmcphillips5963 i'm not sure at 100% because right not i can't find the source but i think NCR *need* the Mojave to restore his economy which is crippled since the war with the Brotherhood. After all in Fallout we were using NCR dollars but in NV people are using caps too so when you are forced to use an alternative money than the one given by your State means you are in deep shit. So no Mojave = NCR collapse or in a very big crisis. Also we must not forget the Western Brotherhood of Steel which can be still alive while hiding. They could see the NCR in trouble and choose to go take their territory back. And for the NCR who can't go north because of Arroyo i totally agree. I even think the reformed that Cass come from is Arroyo because his father or grand father can become a companion for the Chosen One.
@@desolatortrooper7196 According to the Fallout wiki the Brotherhood blew up pretty much all of the NCR's gold reserves which meant the NCR dollars were now backed by nothing, so the bottlecap was reintroduced. Keep in mind though the mojave is a frontier of the NCR, not really indicative of the situation back home.
@@emperorgameling5064 Also worth stating caps aren't based of the gold standard but rather the scarcity water. The caps are symbolic of the containers of water, as water immediately after the war became the most valuable resource for obvious reasons. The caravan merchants in the hub began to used caps as convenient way of trading. Carrying around litres of water were impractical due to the weight and it made the caravans a huge target becuase of how valuable water was/is. Caps are also hard to counterfeit as a factory is needed to produce them. No one at least at the time of fallout 1 had the technology or resources to even bother. Essentially making the amount of caps in the wasteland static. So to reiterate. Caps are based on the scarcity of water not gold. And are hard to replicate.
@@desolatortrooper7196 yea you actually make a good point. The amount of resources the NCR poured into the Mojave would probably cause a recession if they lose. It kind of make me wounder what factions would arise from.a post war Mojave. The NCR are both political and economic weaken to the point of near paralyzed. While the Legion would descend to waring nation states after Caeser death inevitably destroying themselves along with New Vages. I imagine it like fallout version of dark.age Europe.
@@appelofdoom8211 Not really, the nuclear targetting configurations only had NCR lands as set. Nuking Legion territory is only an option for the player as Ulysses plans to destroy Long 15 then let the Legion fight amongst themselves after Caesar's death to free Vegas.
this post is misinformation lol. he is not targeting legion lands the target is the ncrs long 15 not any legion territory, whatsoever the player has the option though
Great video, but one thing that should be noted about Caesar's death is that Caesar knew where the auto-doc upgrade was, and its obvious everyone within his upper command circle knew about his illness, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possiblity for the legion to send in a squad to retrieve the equipment from the Vault, or even for Caesar to kidnap or buy the services of a high skilled doctor within his lands (the legion no doubt has brotherhood of steel slaves and technological resources). That said, i always found it a bit odd that Caesar doesn't have a son or daughter to groom into the next ruler, maybe he's sterile.
As Colonel Moore said, the Legion’s soldiers are much faster, stronger and disciplined than NCR soldiers. I am torn between the NCR and Caesar’s Legion, my only wish being that the Legion had more of the laws Ancient Rome had, since they’re easy to dismiss as the “bad guys”.
They also have better healing, it´s revealed in Lonesome Road that they know healing powder recipes from Ulysses, this is why Legion doesnt need doctors in every of their held locations full of patients, their soldiers know how to take care of themselves
All the people saying "The NCR would win because they have guns" have clearly never studied history. It is indeed possible for a technologically superior force to lose to a numerically superior foe. The Battle of Isandlwana is a great example of this. The British army, finest military in the world at that point, armed with cannons and bolt action rifle, were utterly destroyed by the Zulu's, who were armed with pointy sticks. They weren't even good pointy sticks either, since British rifles with bayonets were actually longer than Zulu spears, giving the British an advantage in melee combat. The Zulu's didn't use any particularly advanced tactics either. Their famous "Bulls Horns" tactic was just a basic enveloping maneuver, nothing the British hadn't seen before. Yet, despite their technological superiority, the British were still slaughtered. In the words of Josef Stalin: "Quantity has a quality all it's own."
@@mooseownedjoo78 Circumstances there were different: 1. The British had a strong defensive position. 2. The Zulu's had no logistics, which means they couldn't get food and water to their army. The force that fought at Rorke's Drift started to suffer from dehydration after a few hours. And the battle was only a victory because the British received reinforcements, not because of some mystical warriors respect like was seen in the movie. The force at Rorke's Drift was actually dangerously low on ammo when the battle ended.
Also the legion has tons of guns and attacks in waves the waves getting more aggressive with Better trained and armed with every new assault but I guess a lot of people no nothing of the legions history.
The Legion really planned ahead of time for the invasion of Hoover Dam. Neither the NCR or House deserved the win but still... The Courier was a wild card nobody knew that turned the tables in New Vegas.
I think its too easy how you can simply as one character decide of the fate of an entire territory, the freedom of choosing your side is obviously a great thing, yet I think it should be less impactful in the game ending. You're only one person and even if you try as hard as you can the world is not something that you can entirely control on your own, it's almost narcisistic/megalomaniac to give that much power to the player
@@TheCrazierz mate, The WHOLE BLOODY VIDEO is about all the fucken shit the Legion has done to prepare for the second battle, from sabotage and infiltration to spy network creating and military planning, Please don't play the special kid lad, its not funny. (Or perhaps you didn't watch the bloody video eh?)
The one thing I have noticed about the whole "Legion wont survive without Caesar" rhetoric is that it almost always comes from an outsider perspective. Yet when we talk to any legion character there doesn't seem to be any uncertainty about succession. The Legion aren't dumb, they know Caesar is mortal and will die but they don't look like they're worried about it or anything. My guess is that Caesar already has a whole hierarchy of generals and officers that will succeed him after death ensuring the continuity of his empire.
I think you misunderstand the point. The legion under Caesar is lead by a man of wisdom who is knowledgeable and educated. He follows a philosophy of Hegelian dialectics, though a flawed version of it. He is still the only one who is taking the ideas seriously. When people say it will fall apart in the game, this is in reference to empires of the past that rely upon a great leader and that leader dies and things begin to disintegrate. Not immediately, even Marcus mentions that it could be many years for them to fall apart. Too many people are misunderstanding it as when Caesar dies that they will just fall apart, that's not how things work. The Roman empire in the west was in decline for over a century before falling. Mongolian empire was lead by Genghis Khan and later his sons but we saw the empire split up as infighting began and it wouldn't fall immediately either, it was still powerful and had some good rulers but as it was divided parts would later fall in the next century. I can even mention the Soviet Union which Stalin had made it into a superpower. Khrushchev who became the next leader denounces Stalin and carries out reforms but Khrushchev could never fill Stalin's boots. Stalin was a master at dictatorship and control, he was very skilled in what he did. Khrushchev is eventually ousted by Brezhnev and the last leader is Gorbachev who unintentionally breaks the who union apart as he had given more power to others and weakened the dictatorship which was central to keeping the who USSR together. None of the leaders after Stalin were able to fill his boots. So back to the legion. Caesar is the one with the ideas for a greater world but those who follow him do not share his ideals they are loyal to him as a godlike figure and obey. So when he dies, his ideals no longer guide the legion. The others have no interest in his Hegelian dialectics. They won't immediately fall and will continue to carry out trying to conquer and this is also a problem as they too face similar problems as NCR as they expand. The fall won't be instant. Obsidian did this because they wanted to show that the legion is not immortal and is following the road that empires of old took. Reading history we see many empires fall and we have to look at what lead to the fall and they tend to have many similarities. What a lot of legion fans didn't take notice of Caesar saying is that there's a lot you can learn from reading old books. Caesar himself is also blind to this as he believes his vision is better for the wasteland. Infighting isn't uncommon in empires either and like the Legion the Macedonian empire under Alexander the Great had conquered many territories and after he fell it was divided by his generals in new wars and the Greeks continued to rule those conquered areas for a long time even though divided. So people are correct to say the legion will fall after Caesar dies. It's just that nobody knows how it will turn out. In elder scrolls the empire has been in decline since Uriel VII died and Martin Septim the last Septim emperor gave his life to save tamriel from the daedra. Skyrim takes place 200 years later and the empire is nowhere near as strong as it once was, a new dynasty known as Mede rules the empire now and the empire struggled in a war against the Dominion and doesn't control as much territory as it used to under the septims. The empire is falling, they await another war with the Dominion and that doesn't mean they won't win, they could win and still fall after that. However we see an empire in decline. Caesar himself has overlooked the problems of ancient societies while pointing out the flaws of NCR which takes after pre war America, his views take after ancient Rome which was very flawed. He sees the flaws of Rome's Republic in the NCR but fails to see the flaws in Rome's empire within the legion.
@@SorceressWitch That is a good point, but you have to consider, that unlike the Emperors of Rome and Mongolia, Caesar doesn't name a successor, which means that there are at least 3, maybe more, men with equal claim to the title of Caesar. Lanius, Vulpes, and Lucius. Sure, they will take the dam as a tribute for Caesar, but what about after?
As Machiavelli mentioned in "The Discourses" focusing on strategic passes is a bad idea for the defender and will result in attrition and overstrechment since there wouldn't be enough troops to guard everywhere where as the attacker could focus on a specific point without overstretching. Caesar sure did read a lot of old books.
Caesar’s Legion would have won in the short term but in the long term it would fall into civil war. Politics hates a vacuum and even though succession was set up beforehand; the abrupt death of Caesar would bring out all the negative feelings the former tribes and allied factions of the Legion on top of internal power grabbers. Rome had many similar problems after major victories followed by political strife.
Unlike Rome however NV Caesar didn’t subjugate the tribes he purged them. Destroyed the very culture and any icons associated. Even if the legionaries wanted to return to their old way of life most wouldn’t even know how since their oral traditions, idols and ways of being were purged
@@Ryanfinder226 The Romans did the same thing to the Italians but people have a long memory and Caesar’s purges would still be remembered by living people.
@@Ryanfinder226 I disagree. Caesar's legion exists for maybe 50 years. People still remember their language, people and culture. You can see that in some of the legionaries at the fort and canyon runner at cottonwood cove
@stevie yanuza I doubt the tribals would get very far unless the Legion entirely abandons the East but they could easily take the land back as the Legion was literally built and made to fight tribals.
If you know American history, Oliver is kinda close to George B. McClellan, while Hanlon is kinda close to Ulysses S. Grant. (American Civil War for people who don't know)
Except Hanlon falls into despair, something I can never see Grant doing - Grant’s defining trait as a commander was his determination and common sense, he never would accept defeat and tended to find a way to victory even in seemingly disastrous circumstances Plus, Oliver seems somewhat competent, his battle plan for attrition is sound based on known information; it’s actually more reminiscent of Grant’s 1864 campaign, which was intended to break Confederate strength by continuous heavy blows
@@warlordofbritannia Grant's major despair came later, mostly while president. He actually was pretty much a miserable dude outside the American Civil War. Another parallel between Hanlon and Grant is that neither were well-suited for their position after being General of the Army, and terrible with politics. Post-presidency Grant was even worse though, and would've left his wife in debt if not for Grant's friendship with Mark Twain. Twain offered him a 70% royalty (I think baseline was like 10-15% at the time) for his memoirs. Grant died not even a week after finishing his memoirs from cancer, and his wife got $12-20 million (In today's dollars) from royalties. That of course means, even on his deathbed he was uncertain of the future he left for his wife and children. So I could see him being just as dejected and depressed as Hanlon acts after his presidency
@@formanmills8211 That’s a fair analysis, but I still think Grant wouldn’t have declined like Hanlon does, not with an enemy to focus on and plan for. Grant’s alcoholism and depression was driven by loneliness and boredom - Hanlon takes to the bottle out of despair; that’s the difference between the two, at least as I see it.
My headcanon is that the legion was actually a sacrifice gambit on Caesars part. He's studied enough history to know how civilizations rise and fall and he seems rational and erudite enough that he shouldn't be caught up in his own mythology. I believe he came to the conclusion that civilization works in stages, and the old world reconstruction championed by factions like the NCR could never work, because they wanted to rebuild end-stage western civilization without going through the proper steps. The natural state of humanity is barbarism, and we had descended directly into that with the end of the Great War. The NCR wanted to return to high standards of living, human rights and civil liberties of a post industrial, post-enlightenment society, but had none of the groundwork laid to do so. Democracy and women's rights and such are luxuries: they are antithetical to the immediate needs of survival. Caesar conquered the tribes of savages, cannibals and degenerates and subjugated them to the legions brutal justice. Then, he gathered them together and used them to wage a bloody war of conquest. He turned savagery against itself, rolling up all these barbarians into his legion like a katamari ball of assholes. At the end of it, he marched them all west to die, himself included. He knew he was dying, even if he managed to cure his brain tumor, he would eventually die of old age. He meant for the entire legion to die there, if not at the dam, then further west. The end of the legion would have left the east largely pacified: all the problem children having been crushed or dragged away to serve in the legion. Much like the brutal conquest of the ancient world by the Roman Empire paved the way for trade, science and learning to flourish, Caesars successor should have had an easy time consolidating power and creating a working civilization at a pre-industrial level. That's why the legion was so technophobic. Old-world tech is a limited resource, and it would eventually run out or fail before enough progress could be made to reproduce it. A society which became dependent on them would suffer a second collapse and fragment once their precious tech ran out, or turn to isolationism and resource grabbing like the brotherhood. The NCR tried to recreate the template of the society which had ended up destroying the old world. Caesar built his in the image of the one that created it. Tactically and logistically, the game could be argued so that any faction could win. The legion was the only one whose philosophy was capable of victory.
Caesar somewhat explains that he does intend to win the war, but not keep the Legion as is. He hopes that through the cultural osmosis inherent to conquering the NCR, that the Legion will slowly adapt a more civilized mentality and the people of the NCR will become stronger and less reliant on modern comforts. In that way, Caesar will have created a fascist state where the people are secure and productive. He cites this as a form of hegelian dialectic.
That's the thing though, his ends justify the means mentality is dangerous and fundamentally your theory is flawed. Hundreds of places around the country have already reached higher levels of technological advancement with full capability to recreate said tech. The institute is capable of production of technology, as are the brotherhood in Boston albeit to a lesser extent. The gun runners run a fully functioning gunsmith operation. Places like the Pit are capable of mass munitions production and metal refinement. It's not the stone age, they aren't only salvaging.
The irony is the Legion was doomed to fall when Caesar died, which he will if the courier cannot save him, so pretty much no one was meant to win which seemed too coincidental once you realize the setting is Vegas
@@nathanielgarza9198 Not in game. But in game you can almost one hit a death claw just because you crouched. But in reality a small group of legionaries can cut throw ghouls like it is nothing, I mean close quarters is what they are good at.
The Legion can take the Mojave, but they can’t keep it. Caesar has maybe a few months left if the tumor goes untreated. No Caesar means no legion, full stop. There are no other leaders to take his place. Lanius would try, but he is shown to have no patience for anything not pertaining to conflict, and would therefore be unable to manage the legion as a whole, at least in both Arizona and the Mojave. Without the courier, the NCR would lose the Mojave and the Battle, yes, but once the legion falls apart without Caesar (and it WILL fall apart, make no mistake), the NCR would need only to bide it’s time until the legion falls into civil war or else bashes itself to death against the NCR in the west. Lanius even acknowledges this as being true in the non-legion speech check endings, “You can hold the west or the east, you can’t have both.” Joshua Graham summed it up perfectly: “The legion dies with Caesar. What follows next are just the final steps of a man that does not yet realize that he’s walking dead.”
Question is how bad is the legion going to fuck up New Vegas before they take it back what I mean by that is legat lanius is going to tear the land apart
@stevie yanuza What powerful enemies? If you're talking about the Brotherhood of Steel, without Courier Intervention the Brotherhood will attempt to take Helios One and inflict heavy damage on retreating NCR forces, and it's said in an Ending Slide that the Legion eventually overwhelms and routes them from both Helios One and Hidden Valley entirely, and for the Boomers, the Legion will start sending a series of Raids that again stated in the Ending Slides that they will eventually be overwhelmed.
I always had a similar impression when I played through myself. A feeling that while Mr House and the NCR are currently in charge of the Mojave, all of the momentum is on the side of the Legion, and that if the Courier had never intervened, the NCR would eventually lose the dam, and Mr. House would eventually lose the Strip.
The problem I've had with the legions is that it can't really survive without constant war and conquest bring more resources and people into the empire. They have fallen into the same trap as IRL Rome which after awhile needs constant expansion and conquering for more resources. Which then made the overstretched border issue which eventually caused one of the many major problems for the legion. Also legion conquers the Mojave then what? Keep pushing to California the NCR would have a home-field advantage against them and would fight to the last settlement because unlike the Mojave the NCR's home is now in danger. Plus the lines of logistics would be fucking terrible in the region it's one of the many problems the NCR had. Legion moves in and they would have the same problems that the NCR had. Simply put the Legion winning the battle would eventually lose them the war. Plus I bet my ass the NCR would try and destroy the dam outright if they can't hold it.
Sorry for my bad english :p . Well ceaser himself says that once he conquers Vegas he Will make It their capital and an Idea of Rome itself making their nomadic army an genuine empire. So their suplies wont be so overstreched to conquer Califórnia. Also the mongols did the same and created an even larger Empire at the time when the Silk road did not even reached by land to Europe. And the mongol Empire only fragmented itself because It had an tradition of spliting inheritance tô all of the sons. So after the sucessor of genghis died It splited the Empire into some khanates ruled by genghis descendants
And i think that ideia of Vegas being Rome itself Will give the legion one more reason to fight for their nation instead Just for Caesar. So even when he dies without an sucessor the nation wont fragment itself i guess
And Vegas insnt só Very Far away from Califórnia and the wasteland still have pre war roads that even the ncr uses to carry suplies, so moving armies and making the stat centralized would be easy, specially if you murder and raze most of ncr cities like the mongols did
You retards replying here realise the legion wont be able to resupply in California for the exact same reason the NCR cant resupply in the Mojave. They'd have to use the same routes...
Some of my favourite play throughs were from role playing as a fumintari. It justifies joining all the different factions, then undermining them all with some good ol' cloak and dagger makes for great gameplay. Not to mention how fun unarmed and melee combat can be once you boost the hell out of you stats and learn the secret moves. Its a shame you cant actually join the legion but i guess thats what imagination is for.
@@yaboiii6562 oh i still had those moments when i would get caught stealing. sometimes its more satisfying to lunge punch your way out of camp Mccarran than to just revert a save.
@Payton Cantrell The NCR isn't taking a victory lap the NCR is suffering under the weight of victory while their economy collapses and their men are starving for equipment. Realistically the morale and conditions and logistics of the NCR already have them dying without active pitched fighting. Camp Forlorn hope is the proof of that as is the Mojave Outpost and the Camp at Bitter Springs.
Nah. Over a long enough time period, the legion runs out of resources first. The NCR may nor have much support, but they do have consistant support. The legion doesn't farm, they only eat what they can steal. Given enough time, the NCR watches the legion get weaker and weaker, and the NCR has a constant supply of volunteer troops, the legion doesn't have a home to recruit from.
It’s also important to mention that even without Courier intervention, Caesar would still likely survive his brain tumor. It isn’t that he doesn’t know what his problem is, it’s that he lacks either the parts for his auto doc, or someone with the medical knowledge necessary to heal him. Both of those exist in New Vegas as without them the Courier wouldn’t be able to do anything. It stands for reason that one of Caesar’s Frumentarii would be able to locate either a doctor with sufficient knowledge (someone like Arcade Gannon) or the parts for his Auto Doc. It’s very important to stress that due to how the game is written, Caesar’s presence isn’t even a factor of the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, and as such we the player aren’t given any confirmation that he is even present during the final battle. So it is entirely possible that Caesar still lives even after the events of the final battle without Courier intervention, it’s essentially Schrödinger‘s Cat in the sense that without information nothing can be proven. We have supposition for both sides of the argument, but beyond that there is no confirmation. Regardless of if he lives or dies however, Caesar’s Legion still reigns victorious over Hoover Dam without Courier intervention. The NCR stands little chance in their current state, and Mr.House isn’t even really much of a player beyond NCR aid. Benny is still caught, Caesar refuses to open the bunker, and the battle continues as planned. Well calling it a battle would be inaccurate, a slaughter would be more apt.
The overall issue is assuming Mr House would do nothing and that the Benny events would play out the same. Benny was forced to leave early due to the Courier showing up, without that intervention Benny would have much more time to prepare and Mr House may see the NCR as a threat but I doubt he'd just sit ideally by just cause the courier is dead.
The NCR could easily pass to the southwest, it's a single deathclaw nest against EVERY single trooper and ranger in the mojave, and I doubt that the powder gangers are going to take potshots at the NCR's entire army.
The mother deathclaw makes a high level courier look like a bitch. Also this is the army that just barely sustained the attack on camp McCarran. So it's not "EVERY single trooper and ranger..."
Nor would the retreat be all that orderly. One of the most difficult maneuvers in warfare is pulling off a successful retreat (at least one that doesn’t turn into a route where most your men die), and I doubt the incompetent general Oliver would be able to pull off the maneuver.
A rather upsetting realization at 20:38. While we know that Hanlon will probably die with his Rangers if he is not exposed in a Legion victory, and become a symbol of Kimball's failure, Colonel Shu gets no such mention in the ending. But knowing his luck, with others taking credit for his level-headed actions in a cut ending, and with Moore smearing Ambassador Crocker for recommending the Courier talk to Shu instead of her, I don't see him getting any credit for his efforts to evacuate NCR civilians and servicemen in the wake of their defeat at Hoover Dam. On the contrary, he would most likely end up a scapegoat without Oliver, Kimball, Hanlon or Moore alive to endure criticism. And Shu is too modest to defend himself from such a vicious attack on his character. The only sane man in the NCR would just end up torn limb from limb by the press and the public as a final "fuck you" to every man, woman and child he tried to keep safe.
If this game had more of 18 months in the womb, it might have had an NCR quest where you forced Oliver to step down in favor of Hanlon. The legion has the advantage that it has had much more time to prepare. Caesar is a native of the NCR, and would not only have decades to install spies, but would also have knowledge of the NCR's geography, politics, and public opinion.
@@beepbop6542 We'd get some legion quests where we'd presumably deal with some NCR spies and the like and things look a little more even. Cause iirc a lot of legion content was cut from the game.
The big thing is it really doesn't make sense the legion can win, they do use some guns, but in a damn even poorly equipped men with rifles could make the bulk of the legion force unable to push forward, the 2 aspects of the legion that is effective is it's spies, and it's numbers, numbers are eliminated here due to the basic service rifle, inside the damn things are even worse, now the legion is facing guns in narrow choke points that one man can advance through at a time, which the getting laser equipped power armor using soldiers would be able to push back, remember the fact that a legion soldier can stab you after you out a bullet through his neck is gameplay, not cannon
Yes the Legion might win the battle, but as a courier with high speech or barter can point out, they would end up losing the war. The Legion's logistics (such as they are) are already stretched almost to the breaking point, and plundering, pillaging & slaving combined with the sort of salted earth tactics like the Legion employed at Nipton are not sustainable in the long run. So while the Legion would have most likely won at Hoover Dam, but they would have collapsed in on themselves when they tried to push deeper into NCR territory, especially if they started to invade NCR home territory, which would make them actually take the war with the legion seriously, and throwing their full weight against the Legion. A good comparison would be when Hitler invaded Russia. Yes, they won all the initial battles & pushed all the way up to the outskirts of Moscow, but they overextended their supply lines, and the Nazi's genocidal tactics against conquered "untermensch" only bit them in the ass as constantly having to deal with underground partisans in the conquered territories only worsened the supply line issues, and with the far greater population available, the Soviets were able to hold the line by throwing men into the meatgrinder of Stalingrad until the Soviets could develop better tanks & weapons and launch a counterattack that pushed the Nazis all the way back to Berlin...
Neither of them consider the fact that the legion would entirely reconstitute themselves over the coming years around New Vegas thus allowing them a massive capital that they can use as a logistics hub to stretch both North and West.
@@urubissoldat5452 The problem is the chance for the legion to entrely reconstitute themselves is rather low,it not hard to predict the aftermath of a legion victory would be a the legion suffering from attrition just like the NCR did in the Mojave,the legion will have to move their force east or else it will far to revolt as unlike places like Flagstaff. The majortity of legion land is held by having a present military force to squash any revolt, they move most those soldier west to fight the NCR leaving the east expose. Now that they have won in the west, they would have to move back east to secure it but then the west will be expose. The cycle continue till ceaser die. No Ceaser mean inescapable civil war.
@@spookyengie735 First your wrong about the Mojave being the death of the Legion. Unlike the NCR they will not funnel countless revenue streams into the area with no return due to no Casinos. Secondly the Legion destroys the Gangs and integrates or kills all of their members permanently ending any of their assaults. Profligates caught would be enslaved no matter prievous legionary treatise, simple residence would be lorded over peacefully as the game says. Another easing of factors is the fact that the NCR can only attack from one chokepoint the long 15 where as the NCR was being attacked across the length of the Colorado River as Hanlon says. Also unlike the NCR Caesar is willing to decimate populations and collect tithes at high rates from its non-residents such as captures and slaves thus giving another massive economic boost. As Lanius says the East can be held if they do not push into the West(the long 15) which from Caesar's Dialogue it doesn't seem they will. He plans on making New Vegas into Nova Roma, and to spend time transforming the Legion into a state once he has his Rome. Simply put facing West from the Mojave makes it very easy to defend while facing East is very difficult. Also there are massive differences in subjugation and integration. That doesn't even account for the power and water loss the NCR would feel without Helios or the Dam, which in lore California is facing a power shortage and a water shortage.
I doubt house would fight to defend Vegas from the legion if NCR fell. I’d wager he would retreat back into the Lucky 38 and seal it back up with his securitrons and play the long game while waiting for the legion to inevitably fall before retaking Vegas.
17:50 I disagree that the brotherhood would attack the NCR without courier intervention. McNamara would still be elder, and has shown extreme unwillingness to even properly recon the surrounding area and gather proper intel outside hidden valley. Most likely, they would stay in their bunkers until the NCR was driven out, and would then be sieged by the legion. Either way, it can be expected that the sizeable garrison in Helios one would likely be able to bloody the legion significantly, as helios one has wide-open firing angles on all sides that the Legion can attack from. They would also prevent the Legion from flanking the Dam and allowing NCR reinforcements from the north to support the fight, likely resulting in the NCR holding, if not the dam, then the fortified areas on their side of the dam where the Legion has insufficient cover to reach NCR positions.
It seems pretty odd to me that Caesar wouldn't just order another team to get the Auto Doc part or even just kidnap a surgeon from the Followers' camp. The Courier is hardly integral to his survival even when you entertain that a game needs to happen.
I remember first beating the game siding with the NCR cause the Ranger armor is pure perfection. But upon getting the ending slide I was disgusted with myself with how the NCR just ruins everything in my opinion.
the only bone i have to pick with this theory is that the only reason why Benny tried to solo his way into the bunker was because the courier was down his throat, and he knew House was onto him. IIRC, Benny had a team that helped created the Yes Man. We don't know if Benny was fully capable of making a skilled team that would've seen the job done, tho its more likely then not that he would've been unsuccessful imo. That said, showing benny's feats in the limited edition comic book, he had an "all but hopeless" chance considering he fended off against a horde of fiends.
for a guy who predicted the end of the world and being only a single day of, l personally believe that house is smart enough to take care of benny, if not the courier, perhaps swank or a hitman, and then its just about finding a corrupt legion soldier, and judging by their numbers, there will probably be someone who can do the job
If I have any guesses: Honest hearts: ends with the sorrows leaving since is Joshua respects Daniels decision. More likely than Daniel accepting battle. Old world blues: nothing, they just keep overdosing on mentats. Dead money: Elijah just uses the secondary squad he spoke of either that or withers away. Lonesome road: Ulysses learns of the courier's death and since unhindered launches the rocket at the long 15, destroying the NCR supply line
You forgot to mention something. The monorail line would (if undamaged) allow NCR forces to retreat into Vegas and coordinate with House in defense of the Strip and Freeside if they expand into it. That's also the reason for needing Pacer out of the picture, so that the Kings are both now less hostile to the NCR overall without the one causing most of the trouble, but also crippled due to the King's right hand man being out of the picture, allowing NCR forces and House's Securitrons to take Freeside. With the old Robotics factory there in Freeside, that would allow at the very least the manufacture of Protectrons. However, all of that goes out the window when the Monorail blows up. No retreat into Vegas from McCarron, and thus no way to occupy Freeside and no way to obtain more robots to both maintain order and fight for Vegas. Honestly, that part is always glossed over by people.
The idea that a bunch of medieval tribesmen/raiders wearing nothing but rugby equipment, some cowboy repeaters, spears and machetes can breach a heavily fortified MG position with riflemen, heavy armored machine gunners using salvaged "power" armor; and veteran snipers in all positions, without using any serious quantity of artillery fire, air support or tank armor; simply through some supersecret plot armor tunnels and sheer numbers is completely and utterly ridiculous and idiotic.
Nice Strawman, mate. Most NCR soldiers barely have any actual armour, with many Privates (according to ingame sources) not even given any after their training. Training is another thing; just because NCR have more guns doesn't mean they know how to use them, since most aren't given a lot of training, with new recruits on the Mojave campaign barely getting 2 weeks worth of training (again, using ingame sources). Compare that to the legion's ruby gear, as you describe; ruby gear is built around taking repeated blunt force over the course of repeated use. They may be able to stop bullets, but I cannot find definitive proof. Regardless, they're stilled better equipment than the NCR footsoldiers. As for training, Legionary recruits have been raised their whole life for combat, or at worst, been integrated from a tribe and trained to use military tactics. Either way, they've had years of natural physical training, alongside many potential survival skills. The armies, at full strength, are more or less equal, as Legion are superior in skill and military tactics, while NCR is superior in numbers and technology. However, while the Legion is at full strength at the (courier-less) Hoover Damn battle, the NCR is stretched thin, due to the Mojave Campaign in general. Add to the fact that most of battle takes place inside the damn, making it close quarters (where they excell), as well as the many justifications given within the video above, its a logical conclusion to come at that the Legion would win the second battle, without Courier intervention.
@@luxither7354 "The armies, at full strength, are more or less equal, as Legion are superior in skill and military tactics, while NCR is superior in numbers and technology." The mere fact that the legion has trouble taking an undersupplied NCR garrison and needs years to prepare to take one damn undersupplied and numerically inferior NCR garrison in hoover damn is proof that the legion is inferior in technology, actual army strength if not also in tactics and skill. "Most NCR soldiers barely have any actual armour, with many Privates (according to ingame sources) not even given any after their training." According to in game sources the NCR soldiers are equipped with breastplates, which you can see in the game on the NR soldiers; little explanation is given for their function but if they are similar to modern protection against ballistic weapons they could survive low calibre submachine gun and handgun shots and possibly 5.56 carbine shots. In the lore the mojave front is said to be undersupplied by armored troopers but you can find out that in the face of the assault by the legion the NCR army has transferred some heavy power armored troopers and armored long-range rangers to this front: "Only in the face of the approaching Battle did Army command finally wrangle enough support to redeploy heavy infantry and veteran Ranger units to the frontline, bolstering the Army presence." fallout.fandom.com/wiki/New_California_Republic_Army "Training is another thing; just because NCR have more guns doesn't mean they know how to use them, since most aren't given a lot of training, with new recruits on the Mojave campaign barely getting 2 weeks worth of training" Completely irrelevant, if your weapons are superior or on a completely different level to your enemy then the amount of training required is completely different and not even comparable. In the pike and shot musketeers and pikemen could be highly trained but in most cases musketeers and pikemen could defeat and rout highly trained infantry of other types even with only a few weeks of training, musketeers would even perform longbowmen who trained all of their lives. A machine gunner with the same amount of training as a rifleman in WW1, who are fighting in a trench battle; a machine gunner would be able to mow down hundreds of riflemen trying to mount an assault as long as his ammo is supplied by assistant gunners, without those riflemen being even able to get into melee range. "As for training, Legionary recruits have been raised their whole life for combat, or at worst, been integrated from a tribe and trained to use military tactics. Either way, they've had years of natural physical training, alongside many potential survival skills." Completely irrelevant, a legion recruit is armed with short range spears and machetes which have difficulty penetrating even basic armor, an NCR recruit is armed with an AR-15 service rifle that is effective at long ranges in the conditions of the mojave (open plains with very few obstructions and hills) as well as the hoover dam (an open road checkpoint with no obstructions). We can also speak of other units, the legion veterans armed with some basic rifles and some pathetic armor that is designed only to be effective against melee weapons don't hold a candle to NCR rangers and NCR power armored troops armed with anti-material rifles, sniper rifles, flamers, miniguns and machine guns. A melee focused opponent like the legion is exactly the perfect opponent to defend against for the NCR, the NCR has shotguns, miniguns, flamers and machine guns that are perfect for these chokepoint situations defending a dam with only one direction of attack. In a close quarters situation like in the dam the legion would be fucked by the same weapons, for example in generator area that is still a wide area where you can spot enemies from a long distance before they are in melee range, in corridors a shotgun or a pistol would still beat some maniac savage charging you with a knife. The idea of the legion simply winning through some kind of tunnel plot-armored plan is ridiculous since in real life tunnel attacks were prone to collapses during construction and were likely to be found out by the enemy, they required explosives which were loud, even if a tunnel was sucessfully dug without being discovered the attack was more often than not a failure and a waste of resources, but that is against opponents with similar weapons, like in WW1 when they digged tunnels in trench warfare trying to beat an opponent with the same technology, such as machine guns, artillery, pistols, rifles and bayonets. In the hoover dam case its much worse, the NCR has missile launchers, grenades, mines, grenade launchers, flamers, miniguns, light machine guns power armor, shotguns and assault rifles, the legion has only machetes and spears, the only soldiers with rifles are legion veterans, and most of the legion army in the second army is made up of raw recruits coming from the newly conquered regions in the east; in the actual battle there are NCR troops all over the place in all corridors. "They may be able to stop bullets, but I cannot find definitive proof." this idea thar rugby gear will stop bullets is so idiotic it is not worth addressing
a single bullet fired by a NCR conscripts' service rifle would maim a legion soldier rushing with a machete. the Legion's armor does almost nothing to protect them from bullets and a small squad of NCR could easily fend off a large wave of the extremely poorly equipped legionaries.
@@Rex-X-Dark Vietnam u picked a really bad example Vietnam was supplied guns and equipment from Russia and possibly China. Next America got the war to a point where there was 2 countries like North and South Korea. The difference was an American president promised we would leave Vietnam and supply them with guns, medical and equipment. The moment the next president got in power he broke that promise and they didn't get the supplies to fight them off..
@@tywaits3896 I mean yeah it's not completely Accurate but I was referring to the tunnels the legion used and while the weapons they had were more primitive then the NCR they still used Guns and very powerful melee weapons add that with their superior strategy I don't get how people can't see that the legion takes this
@@Rex-X-Dark the NCR isn't fighting thr legion head on and with better leadership like the first time the ncr would win a poorly equipped army of slaves will eventually lose especially when they fight a more powerful and bigger population.
This video illustrates how important you feel playing the Courier. You're not just participating in a story; you're a part of (in Ulysses' voice) *History*
Tbh Caesar was a former NCR wasn't he? Or a FotA member which started in the NCR. It makes sense in the long run or rather short run too somewhat: -undying loyalty from soldiers -also his citizens as well as traders loved him (cut content and also the 1 trader at the camp) -knows the NCR well enough to see their flaws and how to exploit them -gurrellia tactics rather than out in the open -scorched earth policy on certain areas -knows gambling and freedoms lead to a complacant and bad crowd that will gather at said towns -unlike the NCR doesn't allow women because of views about them BUT also probably realizes they're a liability and can get targeted more by enemies -seeks out smaller tribes and groups to assimilate and grow stronger -instead of direct firing infiltrates them and plants spies years ahead of time -like the BoS realizes technology is bad but unlike the BoS realizes rhe BoS are too extreme and they gotta go -still allows for small pieces of tech unlike the BoS -makes his troops stat heavy in defense so bullets become basically worthless and they can melee enemies to death (Legion foot soldier armor is more durable then NCR low ranking soldier armor). -prohibits chems and alcohol -focuses on clean food water and protection knowing lacking those will lead to a bad pillar for his empire to stand on -never underestimates his enemies -enslaves people but (again i think cut content) would've allowed some to prove their worth and increase their standing -will send hundreds of men to do what the NCR did at the power station against the BoS. Though he will continue to do so even if there are huge casualties unlike the NCR who got cold feet afterwards. Basically Caesar was playing Chess from all angles all while having a massive tumor that probably impeded his decisions alot but still thought long term. No surprise why when you get rid of the tumor his actions afterwards become a bit more sound and logical even for just a few missions/quests.
Yeah, this is basically confirmed in-game. The only issue the Legion has is keeping hold of the Mojave after the second battle. One of the points you can make in the final battle if you choose logical debate with Lanius is that the Legion would be stretching itself too thin by taking the Mojave, which is absolutely true. Plus, Caesar's tumor absolutely kills him without the Courier's intervention, hell even when we do try to help, it's not easy to save his life. His aggression and planning for the second battle lives on, but after that, there's no guiding hand. Nobody is as capable of leading the Legion as Caesar (and that's me talking as someone who adores the other main Legion figures). The Legion is without a proper guiding hand. It's uncontrolled aggression. Historically, that has always been the collapse of empires.
Fnv is my favourite game of all time and have played through countless times but I never really thought that deeply about the morale aspect of the game but it makes so much sense
Tbf to the NCR they also had alot of disadvantages from the start. In the end the Legion could take the Mojave but won't be able to defeat the NCR as a whole.
Caesar's Legion basically nerfed themselves by using inferior firearms and melee weapons. And still able to match the forces of NCR armed with superior equipment.
Yes, but I doubt he’d get into the Lucky 38 to get rid of House. Yes Man already mentions how he’d been scheming, with no evidence of a functional plan
@@jacehackworth6413 Not exactly, the Courier asks why he doesn’t arrest Benny with securitrons and he says “In any case, Benny would see it coming. And all he’d have to do is hold up the Chip and point a pistol at it.” I could see Benny getting inside with that, but not close enough to get to the Antechamber and kill House, maybe just to the monitor.
Caesar might win the battle,but not the war, Caesar is going to die, so will Kimbell, but since NCR is a republic Kimbell will be easy to replace, but as Lenius said: "Caesar's will is the will of the legion" but without Caesar to make that will, Lenius will become the leader of the legion, thus stepping over everything that is Caesar's will, the millitary will rebel against Lenius, the people will rebel, some wont, some will just break away, but one thing is for sure, legion will fall, before or after the 2nd battle of hoover dam. If NCR wants to win without casualties, all they have to do is to reach a stalemate, and wait until legion falls apart, and thats the exect thing they're doing.
Caesar would still die to his tumor, he speaks about the symptoms as have been happening for a while. I still think the legion wins, but Caesar still dies at the same point.
Hello. From 11:04 until 11:26 you used footage from my Caesar dialogue video however you did not credit me. I would appreciate a credit or I will be forced to copyright claim the video.
Shows how a good game is still being talked about 10 years later
10 year anniversary last week!
Crazy how Bethesda gave obsidian 18 months to make fnv and it's better then what they make
@@goatops9872 I don't know what it is, but games that are made in a short time nearly always turn out to be amazing
@@Titan13335 it’s the people behind the games. No Man’s Sky was shit but because the developers had morals and knew people wouldn’t buy it if it was bad they kept updating it and it’s a great game now. And not to mention that obsiadian is a great studio overall.
Its the best after nuclear apocalypse simulator
As a player you get pretty good insight of current Mojave situation in just first encounters with NCR and Legion.
When you enter Primm, you find out that: prisoners broke out of local NCR controlled prison, formed an outlaw group called "Powders gangers", killed sheriff and his wife, and pinned locals into one building. NCR is just standing by, in 2 tents, helpless do to anything.
Then you approach Nipton. You see smoke rising. Further in, Powder gangers are crucified on telephone beams and entire town is in flames. Its like a scene from Blood Meridian. You advance towards town hall just so you get completely surrounded by bunch of weirdos, in like 2 seconds. These guys don't fuck around. Their leader, in creepy voice, tells that he'll spare you from crucifixion, just so you can spread the tale of carnage.
Later towards mid game you also see NCR troppers getting shitfaced in New Vegas, while Ceasar has child soldiers running drills.
NCR needs less paper pushing and more whatever Boone is doing, if they want to win this war.
This!
"More whatever Boone is doing" 🤣🤣🤣
Yea the issue was the NCR barley controller Vegas and not consolidated power due to the geopolitics of the region.
They also massively underfunded the projects which is basically a attempt at colonization.
It should be noted NCR actually dealing with the region instead of legion which mostly just attacking actually trying to control things.
The point of troopers getting drunk is beyond stupid. Soldiers who are off duty get drunk, that's just how it is. It has happened throughout history.
My takeaway from the NCR quests is that if they want to win, they either have to get just as brutal as the Legion against their enemies, or they (by which I really mean, the Courier) have to go above and put in a *lot* of hard work to build coalitions with the peoples of the Mojave to genuinely have their support.
Makes sense. The NCR couldn't even spare one of their own to go kill some giant ants blocking a road.
Virgin NCR farmer conscript vs CHAD House mini platoon mark 2 robot.
Greed is a deadly sin people say.
Don’t reply. I’ve seen that comment before the hacked my girlfriend one.
@@detonatingpunch381 I hate spam comments like that
And couldn't send a sniper squad with infantry support to clear out the fiends
Caesar to General Oliver: Truth is Kid, game was rigged from the start
*Teleports behind Oliver* nothing personal kid.
Mr. House watching with Jane in the background be like:😂
You know, people like to jab Lanius as some kind of one dimensional grug brain monster. Yet you can use logic to talk him down and he knows the Legion's weaknesses. He recognizes that the Legion has issues from his experience in the east. Ulysses says that Lanius is more of a symbol than a man. His origin is unknown, likely made up by Caesar. You get different answers from different people. The whole "legion imploding" assumes that Lanius follows the myth more than the man. If everything known about Lanius is made up by Caesar, then it is hard to really judge him. Personally, the Lanius we see during that brief conversation at the end battle shows he isn't as stupid as most people think. And he can more than likely lead the Legion well, with added support from advisors.
I agree with you Nicholas. Caesar states the Lanius' has no loyalty to the Legion - only to him. But the dialogue with Lanius indicates that the Legion's survival is of the utmost importance to him -even at the cost of his own ego. Caesar wants to conquer the NCR as he sees it as his destiny, whereas Lanius recognizes that doing so might spell the end for the Legion itself.
RadTheLad very valid point!
@RadTheLad Yeah that's true although we don't know the exact context for that is. Assuming the courier got drunk, tripped on a cactus, and died... There's quite a few ways that particular scenario could have played out.
From the ending, it says Caesar's heirs. It implies multiple people organizing the chase for them. If we assume that Lanius is among them, per your argument, we have to acknowledge his perspective.
First- To him, he just witnessed a bunch of power armored people run over the NCR like it was nothing. And unlike Caesar, he doesn't have the foresight to know what the Enclave are. (assuming they had no presence in Legion states) Who are these people? Are they a threat to us? Where did they come from? In his mindset, the logical conclusion would be to send parties after them to gain information. The ending says hundreds but doesn't clarify the time frame. It's very possible that Lanius sent a few men, saw it was idiotic to keep doing it but other leaders disagreed. I do give it to you though, not a good decision. But I find it odd that the ending says they are chased to Arizona. Seems really unlikely that they would survive long in Legion core territory but whatever.
Second- If Lanius did go after them, it's basically the go to response. The NCR sees the Enclave, retired or active, as terrorists and war criminals. The Legion's response isn't that idiotic given the context given that the NCR would also do the same thing. I do find it odd that the game doesn't give more endings to the remnants. Seems like an oversight that the faction with a "shoot to kill" policy for Enclave (I assume this is the case since they are terrorists, and if you become a NCR terrorist yourself you are shot on sight) simply lets them go after the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam.
Third- I do think your statement is true. A lot of the Legion's doctrine is always going forward. Without Caesar's genius at planning ahead, the Legion would resort to brute forcing their way through any situation. Even if Lanius can be convinced, it doesn't mean he is going to give up. He even says that he will return one day and he looks forward to meeting with you again. (Barter path)
Legate lanius is either protrayed as a dim monster or a smart man depending on who you ask. Vulpes says that "although he is not subtle, he is not dimm, he detects traps and sets his own" and based on the conversation where you can speech/barter him, he can understand the logic and pulls out.
On the contrary, he pursues the remnants while loses assasains for no gains, and annilates the strip instead of using it to fuel his campain west.
At the very least, if you complete the game sided with the legion and caesar dies, it still shows that he can at least lead the legion enough to make a significant impact on the mojave
Jsawyer confirmed that Caesar's story for Lanius is canon.
The NCR can't even properly protect their president from larpers. House needs Courier 6 to get the poker chip and benny never made it far in the legion camp
I mean everyone needs the courier
So that doesn't really make sense
@@cowbeanboi412 Not really. The legion had everybody in place. The Courier was just another pawn for their schemes. If he had died in good springs the legion would have taken the dam and vegas. I doubt they could have held either though
@@DarkSeraph95 well the thing is without the courier the legion dies cause Caesar dies by all means caesar is the legion just as house is new vegas
Lanius isn't a politician or charismatic
It takes the legion 4 years to plan to deal with the mohave garrison as the courier says the legion can hold the west or the east only one not both
Yes they can possibly take the dam but they can't hold it once the rest of the ncr military arrives it's over
@@cowbeanboi412 All that proves is the Legion couldn't hold their land. They would take the dam and Vegas. They just couldn't hold it
@@DarkSeraph95 exactly so it isn't a big change to the fallout time line it just pisses off the bear
“I promise I won’t get too political”
Me after 3 drinks:
Everything in this whole world is political
Well, that's what you get with a faction based on great philosophy, and terrible means. The legion is right, but only in the context of the western wastes. Put them in any other scenario, and they're the default bad guys who can't be reasoned with. But uhh, yeah, I also lost some respect points from NCR supporters after a few strong beers...
@@NorthEevee I always have to side with NCR bcoz of their general treatment of humanity. I cannot deal with the fact that women and the weak are enslaved and brutalised. It’s just not right. I will always join the NCR, no matter the context Caesar’s Legion need destroying
@@DonRoyalX ngl reading that made me cringe
@@sudhanshupanta8108 yeah ik made me cringe writing it. But I stand by it lol
That might be why there is so little in the way of side-missions for the Legion versus the NCR. They've basically done everything in advance - there's barely anything left to do aside from outright assaulting military bases.
That’s actually a really good point.
The reason why there are so few Legion Quests is because the devs didn't have the time to make them
That's a nice headcannon yeah, but the actual reaosn is that the developers didn't have time for Legion missions.
@@BIadelores yeah I wish hunting down profligates was more rewarding or had better quests that weren’t bugged like the legion side of ‘put a spell on you’ or many other cut legion quests.
…. but the 2 stealth boys every 3 days from Veteran Atticus in the Legion Safe House is the best reward ever like infinite stealth boys
I hate to be that guy but J.E Sawyer stated that they're definitely would have been more legion centric missions had they more time but I love lorewise this could absolutely fit with what you said either way 😎👍
The Legion would definitely won Hoover dam without courier intervention, but if they went with their plan to conquer the NCR they would fail for the same reasons the NCR lost Hoover Dam.
Long supply lines affect everybody.
In their current state, yes. However it is impossible to predict how powerful the victory at hoover dam would make the Legion. The Mojave is a wealthy region with a natural capital in Vegas. Furthermore the reputation gained from defeating the NCR (the largest and most powerful nation in west) would have all the other tribes practically begging to join up out of fear of being the next victim. Additionally the NCR has no counter to the legion fumentari. The Legion does not need to conquer all of California wholesale in one go. They can simply grind them slowly, taking one piece after another until the NCR can no longer resist.
@@tylerharris7081 To add to this, the NCR NEEDS the Dam for water and power. If they lose the Dam, people will practically be giving themselves up for just a sip of water.
@@tylerharris7081 Mojave became wealthy with NCR money and the Hoover Dam would be a waste on the luddite Legion. What the Legion faced on Hoover Dam was by no means a reflection of NCR army's true power. A Legion push on the NCR heartland would be the same as to what happened to the Germans on the Eastern Front during WW2.
@@VinceOliver04 the legion are not luddites by any means. They use what is available to them and in the east they don't have access to the the same high grade weapons manufacturers the NCR does. We see in the Silver Rush storyline that they legion were willing to buy plasma weapons from the Van Grafs. Furthermore, the whole reason the NCR wants this region so bad is because of it's wealth. The power and water the dam provides alone is a huge deal in a world where both commodities are at a premium. Not to mention the multiple (mostly) intact old world sites such as helios one, the Boomer's home base, and Vegas itself the Mojave wasteland is a land of plenty that both sides desperately want.
I will grant that in it's current state it is unlikely the Legion can take the NCR's homeland, but the legion is designed to adapt and grow in strength from the ground up. There is certainly the potential for the Legion to become capable of conquering the NCR.
Ten years from now, people will still be talking about how we’re still talking about this game ten years from now.
See you back here in ten years
Imagine if there really is a nuclear apocalypse and New Vegas is one of the few remaining examples of "pre war" culture.
Reply to my comment in 10 years. I’ll be waiting
Well-reasoned. One small discrepancy though: 20:40 - In the Legion ending, Chief Hanlon and all the Rangers in the Mojave fight to the death at Hoover Dam. So command of the NCR would have fallen squarely on Hsu. Doesn't change your point, but it's good to note.
JamesRednok that is a great catch, thank you!
I once had this discussion, where I pointed out this stuff, why Legion would win. Arguments against it were "nah, ncr rangers ingame have op stats. Ncr will win because of it". I had nothing
You can copy all my points and bring it up with them again if you like haha.
Stats wise, the NCR is more or less evenly matched to the Legion. Lore wise... Yeah, House domes in everyone's fucking head if the Courier isn't there. Even if he IS dead, which would not be the case given how we're the only one ALLOWED in the damned building House stays at, Caesar isn't doing much better. I think Mitten Squad did a video a while ago going over this whole thing.
@@ttpbroadcastingcompany.4460 the omertas stage a coup of the strip without courier intervention, and that’s not even counting Benny’s own attempt at a coup. Also on the subject of “they’re not allowed in”
Not being allowed in the building doesn’t matter for shit if high explosives are at play.
@@alizard7617 It's possible and frankly likely that the fold out gate of the Lucky 38 is as durable as the door to his bunker under Fortification Hill, in which case the Lucky 38 would need to be Vault 0'd to get inside.
Videogame statistics are compromises with the story for the sake of playability, man. It's why Perks make the player stronger without benefitting anyone else unless they're Companions.
The fact that the NCR has any infiltrators goes to show how much less competent they are than the Legion. The Legion has no such problem because, aside from the courier, it's practically impossible to infiltrate the legion. New recruits are forced to fight for their lives and earn promotion through bloodshed and they're tested in such ways constantly. Voicing the slightest bit of disloyalty will certainly result in being crucified, whereas discontentment among the NCR is practically the status quo. Silus is notable for being the only legionnaire that didn't outright kill himself to avoid capture, and he still never gives in to interrogation without the courier's intervention.
True , I would love more cracks within the legion like Silius . It's such interesting concept of a zealot starting to lose faith to his master .
The only way to get infiltrators in the legion would be through characters like Ulysses.
There are other ways to infiltrate an organization than just to infiltrate the legion, the NCR would easily infiltrate its civilian population, which has been stated to exist, and exploit the likely discontent with the legion's rule. NCR special operations not just the fucking rangers which are gay as hell btw could also be deployed and interrupt supply lines, somebody needs to be providing the legion with its shitty machettes and football armor somehow. If we are also taking this on a more realistic and nation/army-focused route the NCR could also easily crush the legion, the NCR has a fully developed industrial base and economy, and their ability to produce advanced Vietnam war-era firearms with a few modifications they even have the ability to maintain and operator old APCs and Military helicopters, they also have access to the U.S pacific fleet that wasn't deployed during the great war and have a larger pool they can draw recruits from and basically the state with the largest amount of military bases domestically or one of the largest to back then up and supply spec ops if we were being "realistic" a legion NCR war would be like comparing napoleons grand armee to Rome's legions.
To be fair, Silus was on the verge of spilling the beans. Knowing that a Legion spy was in the base but that Caesar had no intention of helping him was demoralizing Silus & Lt. Boyd was pretty close to just ignoring the NCR's rules against abusing prisoners to torture him.
Yea basically the NCR treat Vegas like a far away colony that is barely controlled. So the NCR is heavily nerved and handicapted at their true power whip caeser has their full power and several spy plans in motion.
They will just put Caesar on Mr. House's tomb if he succumbs to his illness and then become the Emperor of Mankind.
Ave, true to the Emperor!
Brother
The Emperor protects.
Holy shit, I just thought about this and it actually could be possible. There’s literally buttons for decontaminating the tomb and they could just have Caesar lead through there. Holy fuck, that sounds cool as hell.
That is a plot twist I didnt expect, sadly caesar made it almost imposible you know by killing any legionare that even sees such technology, it would be a major fuck you to caesar and what he stands for. Not to mention who is gonna program him in?
I remember loving the NCR back then, but then I understand all the minor faction's reasons for not interacting with or hating them, the NCR just doesn't seem like the kind of faction to align with long-term.
And the legion does lmao??
@@theman44ful Legion I'm mixed on, in terms of control, they do a great job to people that care, but they'd probably just move on from that place during that conquest..
@@supergenius6256 The Legion is still basically in a infantile state of conquering and expanding its land. I'm almost certain that given the Legion takes the dam, and the Mojave as well they will change from being a more large moving army of conquerors to actually becoming what one could consider a nation. Caesar himself wants his Legion to have their Rome, New Vegas is that Rome. They would definitely start getting into agriculture more, rebuild and start using the factories scattered around the Mojave, furthering solidifying their position in the Mojave for the long term.
@@thepreacher7399 I know a lot of folks try to justify the Enclave and Legion, what's your personal stance on the NCR and Legion?
The House always wins.
One thing I always find interesting is how Lanius mentions that Caesar has drawn too many troops west that are needed to maintain order in the East. Suggesting he’s not only the bloodthirsty hound everyone assumes him to be, he at least understands the force multipliers needed to maintain order in the regions already conquered. Which shows perhaps if Caesar dies he might be able to repress at least some of the possible splinters the legion may have in their territorial integrity from the losses taking the mojave
I'd bet in that case Vulpes Inculta convinces a few Praetorian Guards to kill Lanius in his sleep, either through bribery or convincing them that Lanius is the one who killed Caesar, and then the Praetorians who were loyal to Lanius kill Inculta. Then one of the Praetorians, someone the Praetorians appoint as their puppet or some other high ranking Legion commander declares himself the new Caesar.
It wouldn't be truly Roman otherwise ;)
@@MK_ULTRA420 You forget that the Head Praetorian is also an individual who is just as close to Caesar and would likely be able to claim the title himelf
@@godlymoose9118 Maybe, but Lucius himself tells you of the Legion hierarchy so he likely wouldn't claim the title of Caesar unless bestowed upon him.
When you make a game so incredibly rich in lore that people will still analyze it decades later when other games released last year will be forgotten
So much lore and made in 18 months
@@slumber1602 basically an afternoon in terms of game development
2023 has been the worst year for gaming I have ever experienced
This really just showcases already know: even if you don't like the Legion, you *GOTTA* respect them. They're damned good at what they do.
-NCR never even discovers the existence of the Platinum Chip. Legion on the other hand had a plan set in place to intercept it. It only failed due to....wild luck. (a theme with the Courier) Ulysses refuses the job because he considers his business with you more important than his loyalty to the Legion. If the Courier never delivers the chip, Ulysses intercepts it and House is immediately out of the picture.
-Caesar is aware House is trying to make a move and has something under Fortification Hill. He even speaks as though worst-case-scenario, he can absolutely spare the men to stop whatever it is, he'd just prefer using the Courier so he doesn't have to execute good men after.
-The Legion has successfully allied with the Great Khans, Omertas, Fiends and has the White Gloves on their radar. The NCR has allied with.....absolutely nobody. They only have allies with the Courier's aid.
-It's expected that both Lanius and General Oliver are the type to throw bodies at each other with no regard for thought or strategy. In reality, Lanius will send his men through the generators and lower levels. Here, the range issue is moot. The Legion soldiers will hug corners and jump the NCR at moments when they get close, thus minimizing their range disadvantage and giving them the upper hand. The guys up top are well-geared so they can go toe-to-toe with NCR. General Oliver's only answer is a self-serving room of traps to protect *him* and let a limited amount of troops hold out for a decent amount of time, but in-game evidence also suggests Lanius could cut through this with relative ease. If you listen to the radio, Legion is also absolutely collapsing on them: Fiends attack McCarren, the monorail will get bombed, the Khans provide aid at the damn, the Omertas are attacking the Strip, and there's another Legion force specifically positioned between the Dam and any potential reinforcements. The Legion has thought of everything.
-It's worth noting that when making the Boomers side against the faction you've supported, the Legion is the ONLY faction that can eventually beat the Boomers. In terms of power, the Enclave Remnants beat everyone, Legion loses only to the Enclave Remnants (realistically they'd eventually beat them, but the Enclave is able to escape pursuit with a high amount of kills to their name), the Boomers beat everyone 'cept for those two, and then comes the NCR, though even the NCR has high losses amongst their victories. NCR is supposed to be a major faction and yet they lose out to two minor factions.
-Ulysses, while not directly working with the Legion, plans to nuke the Long 15. This will cut off the NCR's only remaining supply line, forcing the NCR to abandon the Mojave and leaving New Vegas at the mercy of the Legion.
It is *OVERWHELMINGLY* obvious the Legion is the strongest player in terms of warfare. They just absolutely have their shit together in a way that none of the other factions do.
The problem the Legion have is after they have won the strip, they then need to hold it.
The legion hands down have a better millitary and generals however economically speaking the NCR are better at production.
Speaking with Linaious, he realizes that the Legion only can survive off tribute and raiding.
I think what would happen after Ceasers death is his Empire would split amongst his generals. Much like Alexander's and Genghis Khan empires.
Which is actually kinda fitting given the original Roman's propensity for cival wars.
It posdible that a pissed off NCR Senate would vow to come back even stronger to the Mojave.
However I don't think it likely. Anouther commenters compared the NCR position to that of Americas in Vietnam, most likely resulting in an anti war sentiment in the NCR.
It's also worth noting that the east isn't the NCR only option of expansion. As Cassidy explains she from a "reformed" northern tribe influenced by the NCR.
The NCR would go expand north. It being the easier target.
It's also has the advantage of being right next to the Pacific Ocean meaning supply and goods can be transported by ship.
Thst said if the NCR piss off Arroyo, its game over. A enraged Choosen One would make the Legion look like harmless in comparison.
@@struanmcphillips5963 i'm not sure at 100% because right not i can't find the source but i think NCR *need* the Mojave to restore his economy which is crippled since the war with the Brotherhood. After all in Fallout we were using NCR dollars but in NV people are using caps too so when you are forced to use an alternative money than the one given by your State means you are in deep shit.
So no Mojave = NCR collapse or in a very big crisis.
Also we must not forget the Western Brotherhood of Steel which can be still alive while hiding. They could see the NCR in trouble and choose to go take their territory back.
And for the NCR who can't go north because of Arroyo i totally agree.
I even think the reformed that Cass come from is Arroyo because his father or grand father can become a companion for the Chosen One.
@@desolatortrooper7196 According to the Fallout wiki the Brotherhood blew up pretty much all of the NCR's gold reserves which meant the NCR dollars were now backed by nothing, so the bottlecap was reintroduced. Keep in mind though the mojave is a frontier of the NCR, not really indicative of the situation back home.
@@emperorgameling5064 Also worth stating caps aren't based of the gold standard but rather the scarcity water.
The caps are symbolic of the containers of water, as water immediately after the war became the most valuable resource for obvious reasons.
The caravan merchants in the hub began to used caps as convenient way of trading.
Carrying around litres of water were impractical due to the weight and it made the caravans a huge target becuase of how valuable water was/is.
Caps are also hard to counterfeit as a factory is needed to produce them. No one at least at the time of fallout 1 had the technology or resources to even bother.
Essentially making the amount of caps in the wasteland static.
So to reiterate. Caps are based on the scarcity of water not gold. And are hard to replicate.
@@desolatortrooper7196 yea you actually make a good point.
The amount of resources the NCR poured into the Mojave would probably cause a recession if they lose.
It kind of make me wounder what factions would arise from.a post war Mojave.
The NCR are both political and economic weaken to the point of near paralyzed.
While the Legion would descend to waring nation states after Caeser death inevitably destroying themselves along with New Vages.
I imagine it like fallout version of dark.age Europe.
Also, don't forget that Ulysses planned to bomb the NCR with nukes, so it would be even harder for them to bounce back from a legion victory
He's also planning on nuking the legion though. So that's not really an advantage for the legion
@@appelofdoom8211 only if the legion cocked up in his eyes
@@appelofdoom8211 Not really, the nuclear targetting configurations only had NCR lands as set. Nuking Legion territory is only an option for the player as Ulysses plans to destroy Long 15 then let the Legion fight amongst themselves after Caesar's death to free Vegas.
this post is misinformation lol.
he is not targeting legion lands
the target is the ncrs long 15
not any legion territory, whatsoever
the player has the option though
This is why NCR-Courier always goes for the reinforced spine in Old World Blues. For carrying the whole faction.
Great video, but one thing that should be noted about Caesar's death is that Caesar knew where the auto-doc upgrade was, and its obvious everyone within his upper command circle knew about his illness, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possiblity for the legion to send in a squad to retrieve the equipment from the Vault, or even for Caesar to kidnap or buy the services of a high skilled doctor within his lands (the legion no doubt has brotherhood of steel slaves and technological resources).
That said, i always found it a bit odd that Caesar doesn't have a son or daughter to groom into the next ruler, maybe he's sterile.
Hi Carlos, agreed. There are even some Followers outposts outside of the Old Mormon Fort that they could imaginably raid for a doctor.
The Ranger vets are on their way from Baja...
When I got this assignment, I was hoping there’d be more gambling
As Colonel Moore said, the Legion’s soldiers are much faster, stronger and disciplined than NCR soldiers. I am torn between the NCR and Caesar’s Legion, my only wish being that the Legion had more of the laws Ancient Rome had, since they’re easy to dismiss as the “bad guys”.
They also have better healing, it´s revealed in Lonesome Road that they know healing powder recipes from Ulysses, this is why Legion doesnt need doctors in every of their held locations full of patients, their soldiers know how to take care of themselves
All the people saying "The NCR would win because they have guns" have clearly never studied history. It is indeed possible for a technologically superior force to lose to a numerically superior foe.
The Battle of Isandlwana is a great example of this. The British army, finest military in the world at that point, armed with cannons and bolt action rifle, were utterly destroyed by the Zulu's, who were armed with pointy sticks. They weren't even good pointy sticks either, since British rifles with bayonets were actually longer than Zulu spears, giving the British an advantage in melee combat.
The Zulu's didn't use any particularly advanced tactics either. Their famous "Bulls Horns" tactic was just a basic enveloping maneuver, nothing the British hadn't seen before. Yet, despite their technological superiority, the British were still slaughtered.
In the words of Josef Stalin: "Quantity has a quality all it's own."
Rorke's drift??
@@mooseownedjoo78 Circumstances there were different:
1. The British had a strong defensive position.
2. The Zulu's had no logistics, which means they couldn't get food and water to their army. The force that fought at Rorke's Drift started to suffer from dehydration after a few hours.
And the battle was only a victory because the British received reinforcements, not because of some mystical warriors respect like was seen in the movie. The force at Rorke's Drift was actually dangerously low on ammo when the battle ended.
Also the legion has tons of guns and attacks in waves the waves getting more aggressive with Better trained and armed with every new assault but I guess a lot of people no nothing of the legions history.
@@5ve1e79 That, or they're the usual internet moralists going "Der, Legion are rapists and slavers, Legion bad, Legion not allowed to win."
@@5ve1e79 indeed.
As if other raider tribes and degenerates are unexistant, like the Fiends raping and killing people or the Khans pillaging stuff.
I played my first Legion run this year, pretty enjoyable to be a frumentarii
The Legion really planned ahead of time for the invasion of Hoover Dam. Neither the NCR or House deserved the win but still... The Courier was a wild card nobody knew that turned the tables in New Vegas.
I disagree. They lost the first battle because of NCR rangers and their snipers, had years to prepare, and did nothing. All they have is huge numbers.
I think its too easy how you can simply as one character decide of the fate of an entire territory, the freedom of choosing your side is obviously a great thing, yet I think it should be less impactful in the game ending. You're only one person and even if you try as hard as you can the world is not something that you can entirely control on your own, it's almost narcisistic/megalomaniac to give that much power to the player
@@TheCrazierz mate, The WHOLE BLOODY VIDEO is about all the fucken shit the Legion has done to prepare for the second battle, from sabotage and infiltration to spy network creating and military planning,
Please don't play the special kid lad, its not funny.
(Or perhaps you didn't watch the bloody video eh?)
@@TheCrazierz Yes the first battle was entirely driven by a blunt instrument of war: Joshua Graham the Malpais Legate
@@urubissoldat5452 and as we have seen with lanius, he had a two pronged attack prepared.
The one thing I have noticed about the whole "Legion wont survive without Caesar" rhetoric is that it almost always comes from an outsider perspective. Yet when we talk to any legion character there doesn't seem to be any uncertainty about succession. The Legion aren't dumb, they know Caesar is mortal and will die but they don't look like they're worried about it or anything. My guess is that Caesar already has a whole hierarchy of generals and officers that will succeed him after death ensuring the continuity of his empire.
I think you misunderstand the point. The legion under Caesar is lead by a man of wisdom who is knowledgeable and educated. He follows a philosophy of Hegelian dialectics, though a flawed version of it. He is still the only one who is taking the ideas seriously.
When people say it will fall apart in the game, this is in reference to empires of the past that rely upon a great leader and that leader dies and things begin to disintegrate. Not immediately, even Marcus mentions that it could be many years for them to fall apart. Too many people are misunderstanding it as when Caesar dies that they will just fall apart, that's not how things work.
The Roman empire in the west was in decline for over a century before falling. Mongolian empire was lead by Genghis Khan and later his sons but we saw the empire split up as infighting began and it wouldn't fall immediately either, it was still powerful and had some good rulers but as it was divided parts would later fall in the next century.
I can even mention the Soviet Union which Stalin had made it into a superpower. Khrushchev who became the next leader denounces Stalin and carries out reforms but Khrushchev could never fill Stalin's boots. Stalin was a master at dictatorship and control, he was very skilled in what he did. Khrushchev is eventually ousted by Brezhnev and the last leader is Gorbachev who unintentionally breaks the who union apart as he had given more power to others and weakened the dictatorship which was central to keeping the who USSR together. None of the leaders after Stalin were able to fill his boots.
So back to the legion. Caesar is the one with the ideas for a greater world but those who follow him do not share his ideals they are loyal to him as a godlike figure and obey. So when he dies, his ideals no longer guide the legion. The others have no interest in his Hegelian dialectics. They won't immediately fall and will continue to carry out trying to conquer and this is also a problem as they too face similar problems as NCR as they expand. The fall won't be instant. Obsidian did this because they wanted to show that the legion is not immortal and is following the road that empires of old took.
Reading history we see many empires fall and we have to look at what lead to the fall and they tend to have many similarities. What a lot of legion fans didn't take notice of Caesar saying is that there's a lot you can learn from reading old books. Caesar himself is also blind to this as he believes his vision is better for the wasteland.
Infighting isn't uncommon in empires either and like the Legion the Macedonian empire under Alexander the Great had conquered many territories and after he fell it was divided by his generals in new wars and the Greeks continued to rule those conquered areas for a long time even though divided. So people are correct to say the legion will fall after Caesar dies. It's just that nobody knows how it will turn out.
In elder scrolls the empire has been in decline since Uriel VII died and Martin Septim the last Septim emperor gave his life to save tamriel from the daedra. Skyrim takes place 200 years later and the empire is nowhere near as strong as it once was, a new dynasty known as Mede rules the empire now and the empire struggled in a war against the Dominion and doesn't control as much territory as it used to under the septims. The empire is falling, they await another war with the Dominion and that doesn't mean they won't win, they could win and still fall after that. However we see an empire in decline.
Caesar himself has overlooked the problems of ancient societies while pointing out the flaws of NCR which takes after pre war America, his views take after ancient Rome which was very flawed. He sees the flaws of Rome's Republic in the NCR but fails to see the flaws in Rome's empire within the legion.
@@SorceressWitch That is a good point, but you have to consider, that unlike the Emperors of Rome and Mongolia, Caesar doesn't name a successor, which means that there are at least 3, maybe more, men with equal claim to the title of Caesar. Lanius, Vulpes, and Lucius. Sure, they will take the dam as a tribute for Caesar, but what about after?
The problem is that the legion follows Caesar, and him alone, nobody else in the legion has the capability to lead the same way Caesar does
Literally many of the characters that out right say the legion will fall apart are former or current legion members….
Great video, highly underrated!
Thanks for that - appreciate the support!
Vassal It’s honestly great to see more videos about New Vegas. It’s such a great game and this goes more in depth than any other channel!
Agreed
As Machiavelli mentioned in "The Discourses" focusing on strategic passes is a bad idea for the defender and will result in attrition and overstrechment since there wouldn't be enough troops to guard everywhere where as the attacker could focus on a specific point without overstretching. Caesar sure did read a lot of old books.
Caesar’s Legion would have won in the short term but in the long term it would fall into civil war. Politics hates a vacuum and even though succession was set up beforehand; the abrupt death of Caesar would bring out all the negative feelings the former tribes and allied factions of the Legion on top of internal power grabbers. Rome had many similar problems after major victories followed by political strife.
Unlike Rome however NV Caesar didn’t subjugate the tribes he purged them. Destroyed the very culture and any icons associated. Even if the legionaries wanted to return to their old way of life most wouldn’t even know how since their oral traditions, idols and ways of being were purged
@@Ryanfinder226 The Romans did the same thing to the Italians but people have a long memory and Caesar’s purges would still be remembered by living people.
Yeah I can see the legion winning hoover dam then the ncr brings there full military might down onto them while they are fractured
@@Ryanfinder226 I disagree. Caesar's legion exists for maybe 50 years. People still remember their language, people and culture. You can see that in some of the legionaries at the fort and canyon runner at cottonwood cove
@stevie yanuza I doubt the tribals would get very far unless the Legion entirely abandons the East but they could easily take the land back as the Legion was literally built and made to fight tribals.
Imagine if we had a sequel to F:NV that had two different storylines based on who you supported previously.
House vs Yes Man
imagine if the opening game lets you choose a winning faction to play out a scenario that would be cool.
If you know American history, Oliver is kinda close to George B. McClellan, while Hanlon is kinda close to Ulysses S. Grant. (American Civil War for people who don't know)
Except Hanlon falls into despair, something I can never see Grant doing - Grant’s defining trait as a commander was his determination and common sense, he never would accept defeat and tended to find a way to victory even in seemingly disastrous circumstances
Plus, Oliver seems somewhat competent, his battle plan for attrition is sound based on known information; it’s actually more reminiscent of Grant’s 1864 campaign, which was intended to break Confederate strength by continuous heavy blows
I would suggest General MacArthur, who under estimated the Chinese and wanted to drop nuclear bombs on the Chinese and North Korean border.
@@warlordofbritannia Grant's major despair came later, mostly while president. He actually was pretty much a miserable dude outside the American Civil War.
Another parallel between Hanlon and Grant is that neither were well-suited for their position after being General of the Army, and terrible with politics. Post-presidency Grant was even worse though, and would've left his wife in debt if not for Grant's friendship with Mark Twain. Twain offered him a 70% royalty (I think baseline was like 10-15% at the time) for his memoirs. Grant died not even a week after finishing his memoirs from cancer, and his wife got $12-20 million (In today's dollars) from royalties. That of course means, even on his deathbed he was uncertain of the future he left for his wife and children. So I could see him being just as dejected and depressed as Hanlon acts after his presidency
@@formanmills8211
That’s a fair analysis, but I still think Grant wouldn’t have declined like Hanlon does, not with an enemy to focus on and plan for.
Grant’s alcoholism and depression was driven by loneliness and boredom - Hanlon takes to the bottle out of despair; that’s the difference between the two, at least as I see it.
surely ulysses is closer to ulysses s grant
Everybody gangsta till the rocks start speaking latin
My headcanon is that the legion was actually a sacrifice gambit on Caesars part. He's studied enough history to know how civilizations rise and fall and he seems rational and erudite enough that he shouldn't be caught up in his own mythology. I believe he came to the conclusion that civilization works in stages, and the old world reconstruction championed by factions like the NCR could never work, because they wanted to rebuild end-stage western civilization without going through the proper steps. The natural state of humanity is barbarism, and we had descended directly into that with the end of the Great War. The NCR wanted to return to high standards of living, human rights and civil liberties of a post industrial, post-enlightenment society, but had none of the groundwork laid to do so. Democracy and women's rights and such are luxuries: they are antithetical to the immediate needs of survival.
Caesar conquered the tribes of savages, cannibals and degenerates and subjugated them to the legions brutal justice. Then, he gathered them together and used them to wage a bloody war of conquest. He turned savagery against itself, rolling up all these barbarians into his legion like a katamari ball of assholes. At the end of it, he marched them all west to die, himself included. He knew he was dying, even if he managed to cure his brain tumor, he would eventually die of old age. He meant for the entire legion to die there, if not at the dam, then further west. The end of the legion would have left the east largely pacified: all the problem children having been crushed or dragged away to serve in the legion. Much like the brutal conquest of the ancient world by the Roman Empire paved the way for trade, science and learning to flourish, Caesars successor should have had an easy time consolidating power and creating a working civilization at a pre-industrial level.
That's why the legion was so technophobic. Old-world tech is a limited resource, and it would eventually run out or fail before enough progress could be made to reproduce it. A society which became dependent on them would suffer a second collapse and fragment once their precious tech ran out, or turn to isolationism and resource grabbing like the brotherhood. The NCR tried to recreate the template of the society which had ended up destroying the old world. Caesar built his in the image of the one that created it.
Tactically and logistically, the game could be argued so that any faction could win. The legion was the only one whose philosophy was capable of victory.
Caesar somewhat explains that he does intend to win the war, but not keep the Legion as is. He hopes that through the cultural osmosis inherent to conquering the NCR, that the Legion will slowly adapt a more civilized mentality and the people of the NCR will become stronger and less reliant on modern comforts. In that way, Caesar will have created a fascist state where the people are secure and productive. He cites this as a form of hegelian dialectic.
And this is why NV is the best modern RPG of all time
ave, true to caesar
@@floorfungus4209 you must enter Caesar’s tent alone, anyone else must remain outside
That's the thing though, his ends justify the means mentality is dangerous and fundamentally your theory is flawed. Hundreds of places around the country have already reached higher levels of technological advancement with full capability to recreate said tech. The institute is capable of production of technology, as are the brotherhood in Boston albeit to a lesser extent. The gun runners run a fully functioning gunsmith operation. Places like the Pit are capable of mass munitions production and metal refinement. It's not the stone age, they aren't only salvaging.
Only shows to illustrate what an absolute BEAST that mailman is
He’s still got nothing on postman pat !
@@imperiallegionary7452 Next playthrough character ACHIEVED. I will see if I can make a proper Postman Pat cosmetic.
The irony is the Legion was doomed to fall when Caesar died, which he will if the courier cannot save him, so pretty much no one was meant to win which seemed too coincidental once you realize the setting is Vegas
You may lose, you may win at the end however House always wins. Too bad house is the universe and not the Dr.Willy.
Wouldn't the legion just have to send a raiding party to the vault with the autodoc? Or just steal the doctors from the followers of the apocylipse?
No way even a large party of legionaries is able to go in vault 38 even if it were on very hard
@@nathanielgarza9198 Not in game. But in game you can almost one hit a death claw just because you crouched. But in reality a small group of legionaries can cut throw ghouls like it is nothing, I mean close quarters is what they are good at.
Yea, but they knew about the auto doc yet, did not retrieve themselves until the courier shows up for some reason
The Legion can take the Mojave, but they can’t keep it.
Caesar has maybe a few months left if the tumor goes untreated. No Caesar means no legion, full stop. There are no other leaders to take his place. Lanius would try, but he is shown to have no patience for anything not pertaining to conflict, and would therefore be unable to manage the legion as a whole, at least in both Arizona and the Mojave.
Without the courier, the NCR would lose the Mojave and the Battle, yes, but once the legion falls apart without Caesar (and it WILL fall apart, make no mistake), the NCR would need only to bide it’s time until the legion falls into civil war or else bashes itself to death against the NCR in the west.
Lanius even acknowledges this as being true in the non-legion speech check endings, “You can hold the west or the east, you can’t have both.”
Joshua Graham summed it up perfectly: “The legion dies with Caesar. What follows next are just the final steps of a man that does not yet realize that he’s walking dead.”
based comment
Angry mummy doesn't know shit, The Legion will achieve synthesis with or without Caesar.
Question is how bad is the legion going to fuck up New Vegas before they take it back what I mean by that is legat lanius is going to tear the land apart
@stevie yanuza What powerful enemies? If you're talking about the Brotherhood of Steel, without Courier Intervention the Brotherhood will attempt to take Helios One and inflict heavy damage on retreating NCR forces, and it's said in an Ending Slide that the Legion eventually overwhelms and routes them from both Helios One and Hidden Valley entirely, and for the Boomers, the Legion will start sending a series of Raids that again stated in the Ending Slides that they will eventually be overwhelmed.
@Violent Malware Ulysses can’t nuke I-15 without the courier.
I always had a similar impression when I played through myself. A feeling that while Mr House and the NCR are currently in charge of the Mojave, all of the momentum is on the side of the Legion, and that if the Courier had never intervened, the NCR would eventually lose the dam, and Mr. House would eventually lose the Strip.
man i never realized how hard the Khan with the shovel was tweakin lmao
The problem I've had with the legions is that it can't really survive without constant war and conquest bring more resources and people into the empire. They have fallen into the same trap as IRL Rome which after awhile needs constant expansion and conquering for more resources. Which then made the overstretched border issue which eventually caused one of the many major problems for the legion. Also legion conquers the Mojave then what? Keep pushing to California the NCR would have a home-field advantage against them and would fight to the last settlement because unlike the Mojave the NCR's home is now in danger. Plus the lines of logistics would be fucking terrible in the region it's one of the many problems the NCR had. Legion moves in and they would have the same problems that the NCR had. Simply put the Legion winning the battle would eventually lose them the war. Plus I bet my ass the NCR would try and destroy the dam outright if they can't hold it.
Sorry for my bad english :p . Well ceaser himself says that once he conquers Vegas he Will make It their capital and an Idea of Rome itself making their nomadic army an genuine empire. So their suplies wont be so overstreched to conquer Califórnia. Also the mongols did the same and created an even larger Empire at the time when the Silk road did not even reached by land to Europe. And the mongol Empire only fragmented itself because It had an tradition of spliting inheritance tô all of the sons. So after the sucessor of genghis died It splited the Empire into some khanates ruled by genghis descendants
And i think that ideia of Vegas being Rome itself Will give the legion one more reason to fight for their nation instead Just for Caesar. So even when he dies without an sucessor the nation wont fragment itself i guess
And Vegas insnt só Very Far away from Califórnia and the wasteland still have pre war roads that even the ncr uses to carry suplies, so moving armies and making the stat centralized would be easy, specially if you murder and raze most of ncr cities like the mongols did
Im pretty the legion has huge farming fields back home lol.
You retards replying here realise the legion wont be able to resupply in California for the exact same reason the NCR cant resupply in the Mojave. They'd have to use the same routes...
Some of my favourite play throughs were from role playing as a fumintari. It justifies joining all the different factions, then undermining them all with some good ol' cloak and dagger makes for great gameplay. Not to mention how fun unarmed and melee combat can be once you boost the hell out of you stats and learn the secret moves. Its a shame you cant actually join the legion but i guess thats what imagination is for.
sticktackman never actually role played as frumentarii, when I went Legion it was almost always melee tank and destroy. Shall have to try that out
@@yaboiii6562 oh i still had those moments when i would get caught stealing. sometimes its more satisfying to lunge punch your way out of camp Mccarran than to just revert a save.
I did all 3 sides, agreed the legion would win without question.
Mr. Chad with robot army: haha legion go boom, also NCR citizens paper go “brrrrrrr”
Like how the won the first war? They couldn't get past ncr snipers and had no answer to it
@Payton Cantrell so, they lost. The Germans also momentarily took stalingrad but still lost
Are they at the hoover dam? No. End of story.
@Payton Cantrell The NCR isn't taking a victory lap the NCR is suffering under the weight of victory while their economy collapses and their men are starving for equipment. Realistically the morale and conditions and logistics of the NCR already have them dying without active pitched fighting. Camp Forlorn hope is the proof of that as is the Mojave Outpost and the Camp at Bitter Springs.
@Payton Cantrell The speech wasn't a victory speech, it was a speech to raise morale as the darkness closes in. But I do agree the brass are idiotic.
This is really gonna help me start my first ever Legion playthrough
You’re wise to serve the Legion by choice
It's been 2 years, you get that Legion playthough?
Nah. Over a long enough time period, the legion runs out of resources first. The NCR may nor have much support, but they do have consistant support. The legion doesn't farm, they only eat what they can steal. Given enough time, the NCR watches the legion get weaker and weaker, and the NCR has a constant supply of volunteer troops, the legion doesn't have a home to recruit from.
If only the developers got to flesh out the legion more.
It'd have been insane to see all the factions at their full capacity.
It’s also important to mention that even without Courier intervention, Caesar would still likely survive his brain tumor. It isn’t that he doesn’t know what his problem is, it’s that he lacks either the parts for his auto doc, or someone with the medical knowledge necessary to heal him. Both of those exist in New Vegas as without them the Courier wouldn’t be able to do anything.
It stands for reason that one of Caesar’s Frumentarii would be able to locate either a doctor with sufficient knowledge (someone like Arcade Gannon) or the parts for his Auto Doc.
It’s very important to stress that due to how the game is written, Caesar’s presence isn’t even a factor of the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, and as such we the player aren’t given any confirmation that he is even present during the final battle. So it is entirely possible that Caesar still lives even after the events of the final battle without Courier intervention, it’s essentially Schrödinger‘s Cat in the sense that without information nothing can be proven. We have supposition for both sides of the argument, but beyond that there is no confirmation.
Regardless of if he lives or dies however, Caesar’s Legion still reigns victorious over Hoover Dam without Courier intervention. The NCR stands little chance in their current state, and Mr.House isn’t even really much of a player beyond NCR aid. Benny is still caught, Caesar refuses to open the bunker, and the battle continues as planned. Well calling it a battle would be inaccurate, a slaughter would be more apt.
20:20 naaaah Lanius would probably throw Oliver off the dam or something. Great video btw!
Nailed to the walls of Hoover dam, facing west so that they may watch their world burn.
@@lupusinvictus2229 Most metal thing I've heard
The overall issue is assuming Mr House would do nothing and that the Benny events would play out the same.
Benny was forced to leave early due to the Courier showing up, without that intervention Benny would have much more time to prepare and Mr House may see the NCR as a threat but I doubt he'd just sit ideally by just cause the courier is dead.
Either rig the lucky 38 reactor to blow when the legion arrives or download his brain and wait for an opportunity
yk house knew benny had the chip and was hiding in the tops right?
The NCR could easily pass to the southwest, it's a single deathclaw nest against EVERY single trooper and ranger in the mojave, and I doubt that the powder gangers are going to take potshots at the NCR's entire army.
The mother deathclaw makes a high level courier look like a bitch. Also this is the army that just barely sustained the attack on camp McCarran. So it's not "EVERY single trooper and ranger..."
Nor would the retreat be all that orderly. One of the most difficult maneuvers in warfare is pulling off a successful retreat (at least one that doesn’t turn into a route where most your men die), and I doubt the incompetent general Oliver would be able to pull off the maneuver.
Dude this video is actually fucking amazing please keep doing these this is super well done and seems like a lot of time and effort to it. 10/10!
Don't know why I didn't see this til now. Thank you, highly appreciate it!
I always appreciate any legion content on TH-cam since every play through you tubers have done and will do is just NCR and house
Thanks - and yeah I was honestly inspired to make it since no one ever seems to back the Legion.
A rather upsetting realization at 20:38. While we know that Hanlon will probably die with his Rangers if he is not exposed in a Legion victory, and become a symbol of Kimball's failure, Colonel Shu gets no such mention in the ending. But knowing his luck, with others taking credit for his level-headed actions in a cut ending, and with Moore smearing Ambassador Crocker for recommending the Courier talk to Shu instead of her, I don't see him getting any credit for his efforts to evacuate NCR civilians and servicemen in the wake of their defeat at Hoover Dam. On the contrary, he would most likely end up a scapegoat without Oliver, Kimball, Hanlon or Moore alive to endure criticism. And Shu is too modest to defend himself from such a vicious attack on his character. The only sane man in the NCR would just end up torn limb from limb by the press and the public as a final "fuck you" to every man, woman and child he tried to keep safe.
If this game had more of 18 months in the womb, it might have had an NCR quest where you forced Oliver to step down in favor of Hanlon.
The legion has the advantage that it has had much more time to prepare. Caesar is a native of the NCR, and would not only have decades to install spies, but would also have knowledge of the NCR's geography, politics, and public opinion.
Imagine what Obsidian could have done with 2x the time they already had, NV could have been truly great...
@@beepbop6542 We'd get some legion quests where we'd presumably deal with some NCR spies and the like and things look a little more even. Cause iirc a lot of legion content was cut from the game.
The big thing is it really doesn't make sense the legion can win, they do use some guns, but in a damn even poorly equipped men with rifles could make the bulk of the legion force unable to push forward, the 2 aspects of the legion that is effective is it's spies, and it's numbers, numbers are eliminated here due to the basic service rifle, inside the damn things are even worse, now the legion is facing guns in narrow choke points that one man can advance through at a time, which the getting laser equipped power armor using soldiers would be able to push back, remember the fact that a legion soldier can stab you after you out a bullet through his neck is gameplay, not cannon
Ave Caesar
Caesar's legion uses guns
Very well-researched and quality video. This deserves more views, King.
Much appreciated mate!
Yes the Legion might win the battle, but as a courier with high speech or barter can point out, they would end up losing the war. The Legion's logistics (such as they are) are already stretched almost to the breaking point, and plundering, pillaging & slaving combined with the sort of salted earth tactics like the Legion employed at Nipton are not sustainable in the long run. So while the Legion would have most likely won at Hoover Dam, but they would have collapsed in on themselves when they tried to push deeper into NCR territory, especially if they started to invade NCR home territory, which would make them actually take the war with the legion seriously, and throwing their full weight against the Legion.
A good comparison would be when Hitler invaded Russia. Yes, they won all the initial battles & pushed all the way up to the outskirts of Moscow, but they overextended their supply lines, and the Nazi's genocidal tactics against conquered "untermensch" only bit them in the ass as constantly having to deal with underground partisans in the conquered territories only worsened the supply line issues, and with the far greater population available, the Soviets were able to hold the line by throwing men into the meatgrinder of Stalingrad until the Soviets could develop better tanks & weapons and launch a counterattack that pushed the Nazis all the way back to Berlin...
Neither of them consider the fact that the legion would entirely reconstitute themselves over the coming years around New Vegas thus allowing them a massive capital that they can use as a logistics hub to stretch both North and West.
@@urubissoldat5452 The problem is the chance for the legion to entrely reconstitute themselves is rather low,it not hard to predict the aftermath of a legion victory would be a the legion suffering from attrition just like the NCR did in the Mojave,the legion will have to move their force east or else it will far to revolt as unlike places like Flagstaff. The majortity of legion land is held by having a present military force to squash any revolt, they move most those soldier west to fight the NCR leaving the east expose. Now that they have won in the west, they would have to move back east to secure it but then the west will be expose. The cycle continue till ceaser die. No Ceaser mean inescapable civil war.
@@spookyengie735 First your wrong about the Mojave being the death of the Legion. Unlike the NCR they will not funnel countless revenue streams into the area with no return due to no Casinos. Secondly the Legion destroys the Gangs and integrates or kills all of their members permanently ending any of their assaults. Profligates caught would be enslaved no matter prievous legionary treatise, simple residence would be lorded over peacefully as the game says. Another easing of factors is the fact that the NCR can only attack from one chokepoint the long 15 where as the NCR was being attacked across the length of the Colorado River as Hanlon says. Also unlike the NCR Caesar is willing to decimate populations and collect tithes at high rates from its non-residents such as captures and slaves thus giving another massive economic boost. As Lanius says the East can be held if they do not push into the West(the long 15) which from Caesar's Dialogue it doesn't seem they will. He plans on making New Vegas into Nova Roma, and to spend time transforming the Legion into a state once he has his Rome. Simply put facing West from the Mojave makes it very easy to defend while facing East is very difficult. Also there are massive differences in subjugation and integration. That doesn't even account for the power and water loss the NCR would feel without Helios or the Dam, which in lore California is facing a power shortage and a water shortage.
@@urubissoldat5452 Fanboy much?
@@anielx8964 yes
I just noticed the happy face on the O in the welcome sign and now I will never not see it
Why NCR and House win:
"Use a gun. And if that doesn't work, use more gun."
I doubt house would fight to defend Vegas from the legion if NCR fell. I’d wager he would retreat back into the Lucky 38 and seal it back up with his securitrons and play the long game while waiting for the legion to inevitably fall before retaking Vegas.
This
17:50 I disagree that the brotherhood would attack the NCR without courier intervention. McNamara would still be elder, and has shown extreme unwillingness to even properly recon the surrounding area and gather proper intel outside hidden valley. Most likely, they would stay in their bunkers until the NCR was driven out, and would then be sieged by the legion. Either way, it can be expected that the sizeable garrison in Helios one would likely be able to bloody the legion significantly, as helios one has wide-open firing angles on all sides that the Legion can attack from. They would also prevent the Legion from flanking the Dam and allowing NCR reinforcements from the north to support the fight, likely resulting in the NCR holding, if not the dam, then the fortified areas on their side of the dam where the Legion has insufficient cover to reach NCR positions.
There is a chance that during the NCR’s retreat the Brotherhood would make a truce with them so they could also evacuate.
...when you arrive at Helios NCR literally says "We only token guard here, if Legion wanted us dead we'd already be dead"
Those guys are fucked
It seems pretty odd to me that Caesar wouldn't just order another team to get the Auto Doc part or even just kidnap a surgeon from the Followers' camp. The Courier is hardly integral to his survival even when you entertain that a game needs to happen.
I remember first beating the game siding with the NCR cause the Ranger armor is pure perfection. But upon getting the ending slide I was disgusted with myself with how the NCR just ruins everything in my opinion.
the only bone i have to pick with this theory is that the only reason why Benny tried to solo his way into the bunker was because the courier was down his throat, and he knew House was onto him. IIRC, Benny had a team that helped created the Yes Man. We don't know if Benny was fully capable of making a skilled team that would've seen the job done, tho its more likely then not that he would've been unsuccessful imo. That said, showing benny's feats in the limited edition comic book, he had an "all but hopeless" chance considering he fended off against a horde of fiends.
for a guy who predicted the end of the world and being only a single day of, l personally believe that house is smart enough to take care of benny, if not the courier, perhaps swank or a hitman, and then its just about finding a corrupt legion soldier, and judging by their numbers, there will probably be someone who can do the job
I never Knew you could stop the tunnels for the legion, now i guess i got to boot up FNV again
Have fun dude, who you backing?
@@yaboiii6562 Ave true to Caesar!!
Camp McCarrin and the Strip, are literately a 2 minute walk apart.
This was excellent. Subbed
Appreciate it!
i couldnt imagine trying to figure out how the dlc's would pan out without the courier.
If I have any guesses:
Honest hearts: ends with the sorrows leaving since is Joshua respects Daniels decision. More likely than Daniel accepting battle.
Old world blues: nothing, they just keep overdosing on mentats.
Dead money: Elijah just uses the secondary squad he spoke of either that or withers away.
Lonesome road: Ulysses learns of the courier's death and since unhindered launches the rocket at the long 15, destroying the NCR supply line
You forgot to mention something. The monorail line would (if undamaged) allow NCR forces to retreat into Vegas and coordinate with House in defense of the Strip and Freeside if they expand into it. That's also the reason for needing Pacer out of the picture, so that the Kings are both now less hostile to the NCR overall without the one causing most of the trouble, but also crippled due to the King's right hand man being out of the picture, allowing NCR forces and House's Securitrons to take Freeside. With the old Robotics factory there in Freeside, that would allow at the very least the manufacture of Protectrons. However, all of that goes out the window when the Monorail blows up. No retreat into Vegas from McCarron, and thus no way to occupy Freeside and no way to obtain more robots to both maintain order and fight for Vegas. Honestly, that part is always glossed over by people.
So basically it took
* billions of dollars
* thousands of lives
* a lot of ammo
To replace Caesars Legion with Caesars Legion
And they say video games are unrealistic.
man this video came out at the great time once I'm done with my legion unarmed playthrough
The idea that a bunch of medieval tribesmen/raiders wearing nothing but rugby equipment, some cowboy repeaters, spears and machetes can breach a heavily fortified MG position with riflemen, heavy armored machine gunners using salvaged "power" armor; and veteran snipers in all positions, without using any serious quantity of artillery fire, air support or tank armor; simply through some supersecret plot armor tunnels and sheer numbers is completely and utterly ridiculous and idiotic.
Nice Strawman, mate. Most NCR soldiers barely have any actual armour, with many Privates (according to ingame sources) not even given any after their training. Training is another thing; just because NCR have more guns doesn't mean they know how to use them, since most aren't given a lot of training, with new recruits on the Mojave campaign barely getting 2 weeks worth of training (again, using ingame sources). Compare that to the legion's ruby gear, as you describe; ruby gear is built around taking repeated blunt force over the course of repeated use. They may be able to stop bullets, but I cannot find definitive proof. Regardless, they're stilled better equipment than the NCR footsoldiers. As for training, Legionary recruits have been raised their whole life for combat, or at worst, been integrated from a tribe and trained to use military tactics. Either way, they've had years of natural physical training, alongside many potential survival skills.
The armies, at full strength, are more or less equal, as Legion are superior in skill and military tactics, while NCR is superior in numbers and technology. However, while the Legion is at full strength at the (courier-less) Hoover Damn battle, the NCR is stretched thin, due to the Mojave Campaign in general. Add to the fact that most of battle takes place inside the damn, making it close quarters (where they excell), as well as the many justifications given within the video above, its a logical conclusion to come at that the Legion would win the second battle, without Courier intervention.
@@luxither7354
"The armies, at full strength, are more or less equal, as Legion are superior in skill and military tactics, while NCR is superior in numbers and technology."
The mere fact that the legion has trouble taking an undersupplied NCR garrison and needs years to prepare to take one damn undersupplied and numerically inferior NCR garrison in hoover damn is proof that the legion is inferior in technology, actual army strength if not also in tactics and skill.
"Most NCR soldiers barely have any actual armour, with many Privates (according to ingame sources) not even given any after their training."
According to in game sources the NCR soldiers are equipped with breastplates, which you can see in the game on the NR soldiers; little explanation is given for their function but if they are similar to modern protection against ballistic weapons they could survive low calibre submachine gun and handgun shots and possibly 5.56 carbine shots.
In the lore the mojave front is said to be undersupplied by armored troopers but you can find out that in the face of the assault by the legion the NCR army has transferred some heavy power armored troopers and armored long-range rangers to this front:
"Only in the face of the approaching Battle did Army command finally wrangle enough support to redeploy heavy infantry and veteran Ranger units to the frontline, bolstering the Army presence."
fallout.fandom.com/wiki/New_California_Republic_Army
"Training is another thing; just because NCR have more guns doesn't mean they know how to use them, since most aren't given a lot of training, with new recruits on the Mojave campaign barely getting 2 weeks worth of training"
Completely irrelevant, if your weapons are superior or on a completely different level to your enemy then the amount of training required is completely different and not even comparable.
In the pike and shot musketeers and pikemen could be highly trained but in most cases musketeers and pikemen could defeat and rout highly trained infantry of other types even with only a few weeks of training, musketeers would even perform longbowmen who trained all of their lives.
A machine gunner with the same amount of training as a rifleman in WW1, who are fighting in a trench battle; a machine gunner would be able to mow down hundreds of riflemen trying to mount an assault as long as his ammo is supplied by assistant gunners, without those riflemen being even able to get into melee range.
"As for training, Legionary recruits have been raised their whole life for combat, or at worst, been integrated from a tribe and trained to use military tactics. Either way, they've had years of natural physical training, alongside many potential survival skills."
Completely irrelevant, a legion recruit is armed with short range spears and machetes which have difficulty penetrating even basic armor, an NCR recruit is armed with an AR-15 service rifle that is effective at long ranges in the conditions of the mojave (open plains with very few obstructions and hills) as well as the hoover dam (an open road checkpoint with no obstructions).
We can also speak of other units, the legion veterans armed with some basic rifles and some pathetic armor that is designed only to be effective against melee weapons don't hold a candle to NCR rangers and NCR power armored troops armed with anti-material rifles, sniper rifles, flamers, miniguns and machine guns.
A melee focused opponent like the legion is exactly the perfect opponent to defend against for the NCR, the NCR has shotguns, miniguns, flamers and machine guns that are perfect for these chokepoint situations defending a dam with only one direction of attack.
In a close quarters situation like in the dam the legion would be fucked by the same weapons, for example in generator area that is still a wide area where you can spot enemies from a long distance before they are in melee range, in corridors a shotgun or a pistol would still beat some maniac savage charging you with a knife.
The idea of the legion simply winning through some kind of tunnel plot-armored plan is ridiculous since in real life tunnel attacks were prone to collapses during construction and were likely to be found out by the enemy, they required explosives which were loud, even if a tunnel was sucessfully dug without being discovered the attack was more often than not a failure and a waste of resources, but that is against opponents with similar weapons, like in WW1 when they digged tunnels in trench warfare trying to beat an opponent with the same technology, such as machine guns, artillery, pistols, rifles and bayonets.
In the hoover dam case its much worse, the NCR has missile launchers, grenades, mines, grenade launchers, flamers, miniguns, light machine guns power armor, shotguns and assault rifles, the legion has only machetes and spears, the only soldiers with rifles are legion veterans, and most of the legion army in the second army is made up of raw recruits coming from the newly conquered regions in the east; in the actual battle there are NCR troops all over the place in all corridors.
"They may be able to stop bullets, but I cannot find definitive proof." this idea thar rugby gear will stop bullets is so idiotic it is not worth addressing
a single bullet fired by a NCR conscripts' service rifle would maim a legion soldier rushing with a machete. the Legion's armor does almost nothing to protect them from bullets and a small squad of NCR could easily fend off a large wave of the extremely poorly equipped legionaries.
*They use guns*
*They have better tactics*
*They have more numbers* (In the Mojave)
*They have Allies*
*Look at the Vietnam War*
@@Rex-X-Dark Vietnam u picked a really bad example Vietnam was supplied guns and equipment from Russia and possibly China.
Next America got the war to a point where there was 2 countries like North and South Korea.
The difference was an American president promised we would leave Vietnam and supply them with guns, medical and equipment. The moment the next president got in power he broke that promise and they didn't get the supplies to fight them off..
@@tywaits3896 I mean yeah it's not completely Accurate but I was referring to the tunnels the legion used and while the weapons they had were more primitive then the NCR they still used Guns and very powerful melee weapons add that with their superior strategy I don't get how people can't see that the legion takes this
@@tywaits3896 and the NCR also didn't get much supplies so that's a similarity to
@@Rex-X-Dark the NCR isn't fighting thr legion head on and with better leadership like the first time the ncr would win a poorly equipped army of slaves will eventually lose especially when they fight a more powerful and bigger population.
This video illustrates how important you feel playing the Courier. You're not just participating in a story; you're a part of (in Ulysses' voice) *History*
Agreed!
The HUD is terrifingly blue.
Love your work ❤️ Can’t wait for your next video!
Thanks - glad you liked it!
I'm so glad this video popped up in my recommends, this was a great analysis. You got my sub and I am excited to see what you do in the future
Thanks mate, glad you liked it!
Tbh Caesar was a former NCR wasn't he? Or a FotA member which started in the NCR.
It makes sense in the long run or rather short run too somewhat:
-undying loyalty from soldiers
-also his citizens as well as traders loved him (cut content and also the 1 trader at the camp)
-knows the NCR well enough to see their flaws and how to exploit them
-gurrellia tactics rather than out in the open
-scorched earth policy on certain areas
-knows gambling and freedoms lead to a complacant and bad crowd that will gather at said towns
-unlike the NCR doesn't allow women because of views about them BUT also probably realizes they're a liability and can get targeted more by enemies
-seeks out smaller tribes and groups to assimilate and grow stronger
-instead of direct firing infiltrates them and plants spies years ahead of time
-like the BoS realizes technology is bad but unlike the BoS realizes rhe BoS are too extreme and they gotta go
-still allows for small pieces of tech unlike the BoS
-makes his troops stat heavy in defense so bullets become basically worthless and they can melee enemies to death (Legion foot soldier armor is more durable then NCR low ranking soldier armor).
-prohibits chems and alcohol
-focuses on clean food water and protection knowing lacking those will lead to a bad pillar for his empire to stand on
-never underestimates his enemies
-enslaves people but (again i think cut content) would've allowed some to prove their worth and increase their standing
-will send hundreds of men to do what the NCR did at the power station against the BoS. Though he will continue to do so even if there are huge casualties unlike the NCR who got cold feet afterwards.
Basically Caesar was playing Chess from all angles all while having a massive tumor that probably impeded his decisions alot but still thought long term.
No surprise why when you get rid of the tumor his actions afterwards become a bit more sound and logical even for just a few missions/quests.
"Caesar's Legion is a good faction" and other good jokes you can tell yourself.
a fucking branch
Imagine thinking you can take on the NCR and its automatic weapons with toxic bro-lifter '300' bravado.
@@simona.9730 i don't have to imagine
Wow bruh, how witty and smart. I'm sure the NCR will reward you with a yellow colored branch for that slick joke you did.
@@esotericulmanist8331 You saying some bench-presses will shield you from automatic fire?
Yeah, this is basically confirmed in-game. The only issue the Legion has is keeping hold of the Mojave after the second battle. One of the points you can make in the final battle if you choose logical debate with Lanius is that the Legion would be stretching itself too thin by taking the Mojave, which is absolutely true. Plus, Caesar's tumor absolutely kills him without the Courier's intervention, hell even when we do try to help, it's not easy to save his life. His aggression and planning for the second battle lives on, but after that, there's no guiding hand. Nobody is as capable of leading the Legion as Caesar (and that's me talking as someone who adores the other main Legion figures). The Legion is without a proper guiding hand. It's uncontrolled aggression. Historically, that has always been the collapse of empires.
Amazing vid. Subbing.
Thank you!
I love the fact that if you add realism to the damage in Fallout the legion goes from extremely threatening to hilariously incompetent
Not really. People like to say "5.56 vs hockey pads hurr durr" but fail to realize NCR soldiers don't have body armor either.
@@bretonfou7046
But they have 5.56 and a lot of it.
Similar to the Sole Survivor, both decided the fate of the wasteland they awaken in.
Fnv is my favourite game of all time and have played through countless times but I never really thought that deeply about the morale aspect of the game but it makes so much sense
Tbf to the NCR they also had alot of disadvantages from the start. In the end the Legion could take the Mojave but won't be able to defeat the NCR as a whole.
People in the comments be like
'If it takes the entire legion to beat undersupplied NCR fuckups then they can conquer the entire NCR no problem'
hahahaha
The point of this video is that the Legion will take the Mojave, not the entire NCR. He made a separate video about that subject which favor the NCR.
Caesar's Legion basically nerfed themselves by using inferior firearms and melee weapons. And still able to match the forces of NCR armed with superior equipment.
If the courier never confronted Benny then he might have taken more time to infiltrate the fort, and might not have gotten caught.
Yes, but I doubt he’d get into the Lucky 38 to get rid of House. Yes Man already mentions how he’d been scheming, with no evidence of a functional plan
@@omogHL didn’t House say something like “he could walk in here by just pointing a gun at the chip.”
@@jacehackworth6413 Not exactly, the Courier asks why he doesn’t arrest Benny with securitrons and he says “In any case, Benny would see it coming. And all he’d have to do is hold up the Chip and point a pistol at it.” I could see Benny getting inside with that, but not close enough to get to the Antechamber and kill House, maybe just to the monitor.
@@omogHL True. But all Benny had to do was get into the fort, if he died after that would make little difference.
@@jacehackworth6413 Aren’t the securitrons directly controlled by House? If Benny activates it and doesn’t kill House he’s just giving him an army
Caesar might win the battle,but not the war, Caesar is going to die, so will Kimbell, but since NCR is a republic Kimbell will be easy to replace, but as Lenius said: "Caesar's will is the will of the legion" but without Caesar to make that will, Lenius will become the leader of the legion, thus stepping over everything that is Caesar's will, the millitary will rebel against Lenius, the people will rebel, some wont, some will just break away, but one thing is for sure, legion will fall, before or after the 2nd battle of hoover dam.
If NCR wants to win without casualties, all they have to do is to reach a stalemate, and wait until legion falls apart, and thats the exect thing they're doing.
Caesar would still die to his tumor, he speaks about the symptoms as have been happening for a while. I still think the legion wins, but Caesar still dies at the same point.
18:25
while all of this is happening easy pete is just sitting in the saloon like nothing big is happening
the 355 dislikes are from ncr shills.
Ave, true to Caesar!
True to Caesar!
Now THIS, is a video I can get behind!!
Ave!
California Delenda Est!
Judging from modern California I don’t think the legion even needs to bother . It’s destroying itself already .
Hello. From 11:04 until 11:26 you used footage from my Caesar dialogue video however you did not credit me. I would appreciate a credit or I will be forced to copyright claim the video.
You can do that from people’s gameplay? That’s problematic. I wonder what the time limit is for people’s gameplay
@@dalton6108 I'm not sure the exact limit however ALL of the content shown in this video was stolen off of other people's youtube videos.
@@AlbertColeUnleashedyou know its transformative so you cant legally do that right?
alt title : what would happen if Doc Mitchell used chat gpt to pass med school
love how you pronounce Caesar right.