Don't forget that the Legion was going to buy Energy Weapons from the Van Graffs if you do their questline. So clearly Caesar was ready to arm his soldiers with advanced weaponry for the Battle.
Imagine what it would be in like 300 years when global communication becomes possible again and the rest of the world finds out North America has become a new Roman Empire.
@@yaboiii6562 imagine the rest of the world of the world, (except china) is still normal as today, but never really checked up on the USA anymore after that event, and when they finally sent people there, they find out about the absolute destruction of the USA and see what there instead of US are these bizarre factions. I wonder what every country's reaction would be to it.
It is such a great shame that they didn't get the time they needed to adequately flesh out the legions quests, gameplay and lore as much that they initially wanted. It portrays them as such a insubstantial faction in the game and makes them out to not really feel accurately represented as the force they supposedly are according to much of the dialogue in the game.
Agree. It seems like they initially played with the idea of writing them as an actual nation that, while brutal and ruthless, had a philosophy and core values capable of building a functional civilization. However, their uneven portrayal made them look instead like just the average and undoubtedly "bad guys" that must be destroyed. The kind of faction you would only join for the lolz (just like The Master or Enclave from the previous Fallout games) and not because you actually think they are doing something good.
@@klaykid117 yep, the project appear to be somewhat plagued by unfortunate circumstances, both during and after development. It's really rather fortunate and impressive that the final product turned ended up becoming such a beloved game in the end, despite the unfortunate circumstances.
Nah, if Caesar's Legion was anything like the Romans they would have worked on a logistical supply capable of providing a hunting rifle + bayonet (edit: maybe even call it a "Pylum") and explosives for every Legionnaire once they've completed their training. Pin down the enemy with guns and flank with shock troops. If the enemy is well fortified, apply dynamite/grenades/mortar fire to the problem until they're gone. Tl;dr: Legion would be an actual threat if they adopted NCR gun culture. Maybe even hire a Gunner as an advisor.
@@Sextus70 It's a damned shame to be honest. Whenever I say that I genuinely think that the Legion could be a better government for the Mojave since, well, they *are* in my opinion, I just get shouted down as a fascist by people who don't bother actually delving into their lore since the game didn't really do so either.
Eh, that's a critical flaw of New Vegas, IMO. We're told about how awful it is to live under the NCR, with taxes and barons forcing their citizens to be rather destitute. But in the game, all the people who live under NCR-occupied regions in the Mojave (and just like the legion, this is only the military parts of NCR rule) seem to be doing quite fine, and come off as more whiny than anything else. We're told about how they're brutal imperialists, but Primm begs for the NCR to take over their town, and the conflict between settlers and natives in Freeside turns out to be just a big misunderstanding in-game. Conversely, we're told all about how safe and secure life in the Legion is, with no raiders and safe roads. But in the game, all we see from the legion is how every woman is a brutally abused sex slave with nothing to live for but to have kids, and how every man is a brainwashed slave soldier who wants nothing more than to go to battle and take more sex slaves. Anywhere with Legion presence in the Mojave is either a slave den (Cottonwood cove), the site of a massacre/genocide (Nipton), or a massive slave fort with gladiatorial combat (The Fort). The game fails to "show, don't tell." It TELLS you that the NCR aren't all that great and the Legion isn't all that bad, but everything in the game from the environment to gameplay systems (if it's meant to be morally grey, then why does killing Legionnaires give karma?) tell you that the NCR are generic, do-gooders who need the PC's help to achieve their goals in the face of a more powerful evil faction, the Legion. The game itself, despite all the lore, shows the Legion as an evil raider band, functionally no different than the Fiends except for being bigger, badder, and more organized (and banning chems, I guess). I mean honestly, even in lore the legion is pretty cartoonishly evil: Lanius is said to regularly rape and kill women in sacrifices to ARES, ffs
@@TheMonkeystick @Nick Toons primm doesn't beg the ncr for anything they'll happily accept anyone and they actually have an objectively worse ending under the ncr furthermore they are more than happy to violently put down dissent in freeside if the player doesn't nudge them away from it and have a clear flagrant disregard for people of the Mojave but also the soldiers and citizens freely thrown away like trash in the pointless resource drain that is the Mojave and they aren't even capable of holding on to it they pretty much need the courier to wipe their ass every step of the way to even stand a chance against the legion whereas in alegion run your effectively putting on finishing touches and tying a few loose ends and mr house is in a unique situation that requires a proxy to his will and it's not like it would stop at the Mojave either by letting them win Hoover dam you simply embolden the policies that git them into that situation to begin with but not before they gun down anyone who opposes their "peaceful integration: of the Mojave it's going to happen again and the player will not be there to wipe their asses forever
@@ravensflockmate After a seven year long war, the people in california are tired of sending their loved ones to die in fruitless expansion. Beyond vegas lies legion territory and north of that is utah. Will they annex more as centuries pass? Maybe, just remember fallout 2 was 40 yrs ago, theyve been doing this for awhile. The problem with NCR lie within its leadership, but unlike caesar or house, that leadership is always subject to change. Considering no matter what, this was the ncr's vietnam. NCR vets get sweaty when machetes start speaking latin. Theyre probably going to see a rise in pacifist hippie culture
@@ravensflockmate Actually no, the NCR ending is technically the best for primm since it flourishes afterwards, provided the NCR won the battle of hoover dam.
@Jesus Achmed The reason for the moore being a brutal crazy bitch is because she fought againt all the factions she orders you to kill, and seriously just look at them, the BoS mojave chapter are glorified raiders who are extremely fanatical and will exterminate anyone who doesn't give away their technology even if it means burning down a town with eldery and children in it, the great khans are civil when you first talk to them but when you listen to bitter-root's story you will notice they were animals just like their ancestors in the original games, if they had enough manpower they would surely as fuck pillage and raid several towns, the only ones who don't deserve to die are the kings, but you can get colonel hsu to solve the situation peacefully and not result in a massacre, even ambassador crocker begs you to talk to colonel hsu instead which gives a sense of morality, the only one who is fairly questionable is hanlon.
Ironically, according to Hegelian dialectics, it should be the other way. Hegel believed that in history, the synthesis is produced by the nations embodying new ideas, according to him towards more and more freedom, and their interactions with the old. Since, according to Hegel, society moves towards more freedom, the NCR should form a synthesis with the Legion.
"you join the NCR? lame. you'll be given a puny branch and forgotten in 2 centuries. You join the Legion? epic. you will be remembered as a great warrior, strength rivalling that of Lanius, alongside immortalized in the currency."
I mean you'll be know as the person to stop the stalemate, saved many lives, stop the threat to the people that'll get hurt, basically saved the NCR, saved the NCRs president (players choice), and destroyed the legion before it destroyed itself
@@andryuu_2000 except they don't Caesar treats u better than any other faction he prints ur face on currency which implies ur next for the throne. House treats u as nothing more than a lapdog. Similar to NCR, which give u a fucking branch for ur service. A CIVILIAN branch at that.
It doesn't really matter what you think of the Caesars Legion because no matter what Courier does they still lose th-cam.com/video/EBAHzsqBmCA/w-d-xo.html
Caesar's view on Hegelian dialectics is more like how Genghis Khan lead the Mongolian empire. You adopt the best parts of your enemy's culture/politics and assimilate them into your whole empire. It forces your citizens to understand the new citizens while simultaneously improving the empire as a whole. Creates unity where normally there would be divides and holds the empire together, which is why when people say things like "when Caesar dies the legion will fall apart" I know better.
@@nkosig4995 Yes, but it propelled society farther than it would have otherwise been, similar to the Norse and Danish in Europe. The Swedes not only pushed my country into a new age, but flat out created the country. There would have been no order or larger society without these factions. No change is forever, save the concept of change.
@@lupusinvictus2229 lmao yes. And I actually think gehngis did made things better in the end. But the problem with ceaser is that other than dressing like a roman, he offers nothing. Rome and the kahn's brought modern society, civilization, medicine, WOMANS rights, exploration of sexuality. Ceaser has litteraly none of these. The man is insane, and honestly, blatantly incompetent. If legate lanius loses a single battle, ceaser will have him killed. And that will be the end of the legion. It's inevitable. Lanius is probably smarter THAN ceaser. Bringing a centralized religion and actually willing to negotiate.
Except there weren't many women's rights originating from these people to speak of. What you had, you had at the tip of a spear and women were never traditionally the type. Women's rights were more popular in smaller tribes, and typically near the middle east like Bedoins, Scythians, Sarmatians and more. Rome, Greece, Mongolia and China all typically treated women same as we do. The advancement of the other concepts typically come naturally, but only when there is no war, and typically when civilizations get bigger. Peaceful, large nations = growth. The NCR is terrible at expansion, and Caesar's whole shtick is to grow rapidly so they can reach the stage where growth is maximized faster. That's how these warlike states ironically became the progenitors of modern civilization. There is no civilized people that got where they are without bulldozing someone first, and the biggest nations are the biggest culprits; America, England, Germany, Russia, China, France.
@@lupusinvictus2229 1) your kinda just wrong about china and mongolia. I don't know where you got that from khan's grandaughter was undefeated, woman ran entire towns, which would lead to china having confederacies led by women. Also, how is ceaser better than the ncr? He's just going to destroy everything. He doesn't have plans on ruling everything. Do you really think he's going to allow... Anything to exist? Maybe the van graff's but probably not since their led by a woman. Don't spout a ideology in defence of a specific situation. The ncr will share the power they gain at least. New vegas isn't going to be enslaved. It's going to be annexed. America didn't become rome. It became america but with radiation. Ceaser is a war lord cosplaying. He offers nothing but destruction and slavery. How long would it take for his empire to look for another group the other. He's a far worse imperialist than the ncr. He's not even good at it. Nothing is inherintly good about "assimilation" he isn't technically advanced, his philosophies go unnoticed by his men, and his actions are incompetent. The ncr option has the most lives saves and more stable society. Free side gets the support of the entire government. Fuck the casinos and fuck the ceasers ego. Grab me a sniper and let me build some public infastructure. Also the legion is hyper dependent on the ncr for survival. They don't have raiders because their litteraly made up of raider clans. of the ncr lose the roads the legion have no roads to raid
I sides Caesar every game other than my run when I sided with Mr. House. Most people use the ideas of today to judge these characters and that’s fine but in mine I prefer to see them through the eyes of a wastelander. I think Caesar has the most likely to succeed award in the end.
I think even by the standard of the wastelands Caesar's Legion is pretty fucked up in the stuff they do. Particularly if your courier has been to the NCR (which according to Ulysses they have) and seen the alternative
Well made very well-thought-out looking at the other side of the view what if the legion actually one and did it immediately implode just because of some people thought they would I'm going to recommend you to some of my friends really hope this channel doesn't die
I think the biggest issue here is that Caesar's eventual goals are all well and good, but he seems to forget that the method by which you seek achieve those goals, has an impact on the outcome. Both the ends _and_ the means are important.
Also that just because this is what caesar wants to happen, doesn't mean it is what would happen. He'd have to destroy the NCR to take control then tell his legionaires to adopt the customs of those he just had killed
Also this is HIS vision, it’s very unlikely that few if any of his subjects know of his end goal, and heads up, even if you side with the legion the old man is probably gonna die soon anyways before he accomplishes his goals, which would lead to tall dark and broody Lanius taking charge, and we all know that Lanius would probably destroy society, not build it up like Ceaser, the NCR on the other hand, is easily fixable, a kickass president with some military support could massively reform the nation quite easily, the NCR is rotten yes, but said rot is easy to cure, the corruption hasn’t had time to entrench itself like it had with pre war America. The Legion is better but failing, and the NCR is worse but has potential
@@timyuusis3372the man does not want it to happen. He is not gonna make the legionaries adopt any NCR custom. He is bullshiting the courier with the dialectics talk. He literally tells you his state obliterates the identity of every group it conquers. Anyone who evwn suggests the wrongs of his ways, say gor example, a woman suggest maybe he shouldnt treat them like walking baby dispensers, will just be crucified. And no one has a say in the matter because Vaesar and the legion, both now and in the long term future, are inherntly opossed to democracy, therefore opossed to debate, and therefore opossed to synthesis.
Great analysis again My thinking this time is two fold: 1) As Arcade Gannon and Joshua Graham kinda hint at is that Caesar is far more of a sophist than a Marcus Aurelius, he treats the NCR as a society on the brink of collapse because it's currently weak in the NCR. As the American civil war and Britain in the second world war proved though, there's nothing that quite able to trim the fat and mobilise a democracy like exertstential threat. I think that people like Cait are so negative is because they have not been alive when the NCR has truly been at the knives edge. He also tries to treat Hegelian dialects (a flawed thinking system in out own time) to nation states rather than philosophical ideas, misunderstanding it in the process. 2) His death cult has ultimately doomed his own Empire, as hinted at with both his own idea of the original Caesars legion and the Legion of the 4th century. Both are totally and utterly dependant on a strong leader to maintain control and when that leader inevitably dies it falls apart. The Ceasarian civil war (with Marc Anthony and Augustus) shows very well. 3) It's easy to claim peace and prosperity when your Legion is barely a generation old. The NCR has had to fight hard and maintain its large and dense territory, raider gangs build up over time, Caesar hasn't had the chance to truly face one, since he's been able to absorb most of them already. Caesar is, much like his idealised philosopher Hagal, too much of an idealist to truly foresee all the issues he's created for himself, an army of raiders and pilferers will only remain loyal while there is raiding and pilfering to be had. Once there is not he will find their loyalty is alot less firm than he thought. Loved the video though
@RadTheLad Even if Caesar ultimately fails, the war against the NCR will force them to shape up in the face of an existential threat like the Legion, which will accomplish at least some of what he wanted. Also, he could just do what the real Caesar did and adopt his successor. A Legion-aligned Courier with high INT and CHR would make an excellent heir once Caesar dies. If it can happen with Yes Man, it can happen with the Legion. The fact he mints the Courier's face on the same gold coin as himself might be foreshadowing of that eventually being possible. If I remember correctly, the face of the Aureus was usually reserved for the Roman emperor himself. I'm sure that Lanius being next in the succession line is only to ensure maximum military efficiency, and that he'll appoint a genuine successor once he's transformed New Vegas into his Rome.
Yes but remember even if you save Ceaser the old man is prolly gonna die soon regardless before he synthesizes the NCR, which would put Lanius in charge, and I think it’s fairly easy to figure out how that would end…
NCR can win only if they put Hanlon in charge. Oliver are incompetent leader, everyone know even Lanius is dissapointed about this, he get promoted to General because he's a friend of Kimball. When Courier try to persuade Lanius to retreat, one of the choice is informing there's a trap planted by NCR and the Courier think it's not honorable to defeat foes in such way, the only one can pull such trap to defeat the Legion is Hanlon. Hanlon is equivalent of Caesar, without Hanlon leadership the NCR bound to fall, even Caesar respect Hanlon while he doubt Lanius is a great leader, that thing alone is a proof that Hanlon is formidable foe. Also I remember in 1 of the ending when NCR lose the dam, Hanlon come back to the West and become a Senator while Kimball and Oliver political career went downhill. And in other ending when Hanlon dead, the Ranger lose their morale while nobody cares about Kimball & Oliver dead, meaning if Hanlon are the one who lead the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam, NCR army morale is as high as Legion morale, or at least isn't as low as the current situation. Caesar also state that he put Lanius in charge because it's make Legion soldier fear the one behind them (fear the wrath of Lanius) rather fearing the one they face (NCR), hinting Legionaries do fear NCR at one point. NCR lost not because of the might of Legion, NCR lost because it's corrupt government.
That’s why I always thought the mister house ending was actually the best ending for the NCR, not the NCR ending. Oliver fails or is dead, Hanlon is in charge and the NCR has a good excuse to leave Vegas whilst still technically having a win against the legion. Their expansion stops for a while so they can focus on restructuring first and now there’s a buffer between them and the legion. Me.House makes it clear too he still wants to do business with the NCR and their money will go directly to the creation of jobs and infrastructure in the region which will end up benefitting the NCR as well. House basically wants to use their system against them, and remain independent while integrating himself into their economic system so he can steer them that way.
@The nova renaissance the Legion can't fix the howitzer, without Courier it's still broken. Hanlon already know majority of Legionaries are anti-tech, under normal condition the Legion couldn't use the howitzer. The only thing he didn't expect is the Courier, in fact nobody expect Courier interference. You can't count that in afterall the Courier is counted as 1% error in every 99% guarantee success. Forget about stupid howitzer, the Courier can literally bring bomber airplane and Enclave Remnant's to join the battle. House acknowledged that the Courier is beyond his expectations and Caesar admit he fear the Courier, only the NCR didn't care about the Courier except for the ability to enter Lucky 38. So without the Courier, the howitzer is still broken and Legion will take over the dam more easily.
The Legion plots in so many unmarked quests and side quests in the game, like Curtis bombing the monorail and the Fiends attacking NCR's base of operations in the Mojave at full strength to name a couple of examples are why the Legion would win without courier intervention.
Thoroughly enjoy the content you’re making, love seeing a more underrepresented side of the NCR-Legion conflict as well. Can’t wait to see where your stuff goes in the future!
Legion would probably turn into Rome once it hits the sea, eventually collapsing in on itself....essentially what the NCR is doing in the Mojave...Ironic.
@@vietcongwarlord6931 They are mimicking the old world USA, which is what caused a nuclear fallout in first place, and due to their fast and forceful expansion, they are basically a sport car going at full speed straight at a wall.
Since playing New Vegas as a kid I have always been drawn to the Bear, because of my own personal politics and the idealism of democracy and cooperation the NCR espouses but as time goes on and I realise how cretinous Oliver, Kimball and the Brahmin barons are - I find myself wondering if the Bull is the way forward. I often judge fallouts politics through the lens of my 21st century experience but I need to remind myself this is a literal wasteland. I still am drawn toward the bear as I am completely opposed to slavery no matter what the state of the world might be, but the NCR feels like its going to tear itself apart. Anyway your videos are fucking incredible.
I really appreciate this content. To many people buy into there first play though as NCR and totally forget this franchise was never meant to be a story about good guys vs bad guys. It's meant to be a story about decisions and the way they effect the world. It could be that the NCR are the first major faction you come across in prim and when you find them they're just being incompetent as usual rather than the first impression you get in Nipton from Vulpes. Not only that, but you need to ask the right questions before you learn why he crucified everyone. "For a pittance, the town agreed to lead those it had sheltered into a trap. Only when I sprang it did they realize they were caught inside it, too." It's sorta like polar opposites in the way you have to deconstruct each major faction. The NCR on the outside looks good natured, ill advised, easy going and fair, but the further in you go the more you see they are brutal, arrogant, unjust, corrupt and really have lost control of the ship. Then when you look a the Legion you see brutality, arrogance and abuses of justice, but on further investigation you can find a brotherhood of men with moral fortitude and a sense of justice who would die for each other. They have an enthusiastic leader who has greater plans, not only for the Mojave, but his empire. Granted the fact he had the Kings run off and crucified is uncool given they were basically just another roman cult to a strange god. lol Like I said it's not meant to be about the good guys vs the bad guys. That's what keeps us all coming back to this old ass game we have to smash and cram mods into to make work right.
Frankly none of the options are the good guys. That said the Legion are certainly the worst option. They're nothing more than a well organized band of raiders.
@@paulbrule5897I think you’d have to actually be retarded if you think that the faction wearing football uniforms instead of actual armor would be better at keeping the Mojave safe.
@@AcornScorn Well, to be frank, it's not hard to see why one would follow someone that brings peace to the lands even if it is at the cost of others dying or becoming slaves if you live in a nuclear wasteland. It's kinda just what happens in societies surrounded with hostile lands, I guess. Don't get me wrong, slavery bad, but other things are bad too, like letting roads be dangerous through neglect, or general poverty/instability amongst the populace, so whether or not the Legion improves most people's lot in life should probably matter just as much to you when talking about the ethics of a country.
Great video, I figured that Cesar had a goal after taking the NCR and that their just a glorified raider gang was wrong as they have towns and society's that sustain themselves and that their military and views are short term for their main goal to beat the NCR.
@@UhHellandDoomIguess well you have to remember their short term goal in the moment is to deal with the ncr at all cost and that means doing these sort of things and remember the Mojave is a war zone. Peace and stability at all cost then rebuild
@@camthaman2383 Caesar's legion is a fascist totalitarian dictatorship based on a cult of personality - they destroy culture and tear families apart on a mass scale. slavery, rape, murder, and other crimes against humanity run rampant in their territory... Also they don't have any formal command structure, so it's game over when Caesar dies. So basically they are evil in every way possible
@@SS-ff8jg I didnt say they weren't evil, I totally agree and part of me thinks there really isnt someone to takes cesar place because he doesn't want it, when he dies who cares what happens he just wants power and he cant get it through the NCR so he goes his own way to have full control I totally agree. And you have to remember this is the waste land where all that already happens its just in cesar case after all the pillaging and rape there is some order and safety in his territory, and some prefer safety over freedom during these times.
10:20 the idea of women adding to a pool of future soldiers is self-defeating regardless of how large the population is. Each woman you add to the Legion's military ranks is one less potential mother, who could have provided any number of Legionaries instead. Not to mention the obviously superior effectiveness of males in combat roles compared to women. A rare woman could potentially be a Frumentarii if she was really that good, but the only real advantage in that would be to subvert the enemy's expectations of what a Legion-aligned infiltrator would look like. Caesar's justifications for these social changes are pragmatic, but they are also rigid. You can look at exceptions to the rule all you want, but they never disprove the rule.
Though women in real life don't often make the best warriors, Fallout's Earth had displayed that women can fight on par with men. The mother thing is a conundrum though.
@@testacals As proven by modern militaries, where special forces have no gender requirement, simply highly elite skills and knowledge, men are just better soldiers.
Pretty neat that Cell reference dude :D I personally really like the idea of Caesar's Legion along with the Brotherhood of Steel, their adoration for order, strenght and discipline, but with Caesar more focused on the natural body and Brotherhood with superpowerful technology
I personally think that in real life, democracies havent really worked out, ever. Maybe in some ancient times, but not in the superindustrialized modern countries. We must remember that in ancient times democracy could be easier to achieve and controll because of how small were populations, everyone know each other in every village and almost all shared the common goals of safety and prosperty, unlike modern us, that hadrly we know each other even in the same area, lets not say the same city. I like Caesar sacrificing a weak democracy for a stronger imperial structure, yet they need more than brute strenght to succeed in the long term, less slavery and more "flexibility" towards other fighting tribes, like the romans did with certain, valuable warrior tribes, instead of slaving them, just ally with them, "I'll respect your little territory and local rules if you respect me being around here. Both of us know that If we fight, I'll just destroy you and slave your children, and I dont want to lose men in a battle we could easily avoid by joining forces"
@Glockjaw Dude its power relies on its massive industry and military bodies, their quality of life is superlow. The US isnt powerful because MUH democracy, if something, Democracy only stops them to be even more destructive. Its like saying that Communism works 'cause China is a global power. The point isnt about power, at all, is about quality of life, wellness and order, things that your beloved distopy world doesnt have
All and all I think the Legion is the losing side in this history in the long run regardless of the Battle of the Hoover Dam outcome simply due to overwhelming superiority of the NCR in terms of industry and population. Keep in mind that in the Mojave the Legion fought a single expeditionary corps of the NCR, a large force, but by far not the entirety of the NCR military. The corps was far from home, undersupplied and undermanned and it still managed to beat the Legion in their first assault, requiring if maybe not full but close to it force of the Legion's army to be deployed for the second assault. If we assume that the Legion won at the Hoover Dam than in their next campaign they would be facing the entirety of the NCR military fighting at their own doorstep protecting their home - a battle which certainly doesn't favour the Legion. And even if they somehow manage to win it there is no chance they could establish a firm grip on their newly conquered lands. Lanius stated that the siege of one single city - Denver was a campaign that put the Legion on the brink of collapse and California has a dozen of such Denvers populated not by savages and dogs but by tens of thousands of probably well armed people who have very little liking of their new overlords and also let's not forget about the Brotherhood who wouldn't just sit and watch as a gang of slavering raiders ravages around Lost Hills and Navarro. In my opinion Caesar gravely underestimated the power of the West and the best ending for the Legion in the game was the one, where the Courier convinces Lanius to retreat, as the victory at the Dam would have been the prologue for the Legion's demise.
Caesar is not stupid he would think of a new strategy to deal with the NCRs core, and that is without a doubt to use the cracks in its structure to bring it down, he only needs to put pressure in the right places to cause the different parts of the NCR to fight amongst each other, at the end of the day he can offer up a hand to the people who are unhappy with the NCR and its job and cause internal strife whilst pushing in slowly and be welcomed as a liberator.
@@ilo3456 , in my opinion, the topic of NCR's cohesion as a political entity is very plausible, since we have very little information regarding internal political and economic situation within the republic. All we know that it's expanding and therefore we can assume that the domestic issues are under control at least to some degree.
@@egorkoshevoy6694 The issue with the NCR is that it is known that corruption and nepotism is rampant inside the NCR, certain places have political families that hold massive sway over the NCR's Senate, there are many Senators that are basically only senators because they hold large amounts of power in their local communities like in New Reno where we know that the crime families of New Reno have a lot of power, and so does Vault City. I doubt that the NCR citizens are generally all that satisfied with the NCR specially following a withdrawal from The Mojave, many large interests in the NCR invested heavily into the Mojave as a new business opportunity and it might not just mean that the Legion are at the NCR's door might create more pressure inside the NCR.
@@ilo3456 the fact of the NCR being an oligarchy doesn't necessarily mean its weakness and instability, being run by a small powerful minority that is split into several interest groups is a normal situation for most of the states in human history, if there's enough space to expand and new markets to exploit, powerful financial groups within the state are more than capable of cooperation and venting excessive pressure from the underclasses. Them being in position of power means that the Caesar has nothing to offer them since they already run the country and have their interests being the state's highest priority. When a country's bourgeoisie faces a competitor that stands between them and their profits or an existential enemy that denies thier very right to dominate the society, they usually put aside their differences and unite against the enemy, showing some serious ingenuity and tenacity, when dealing with him. Historical examples for it could be the British Empire or the United States, they didn't collapse in infighting when the Germans or the Japanese challenged their dominance, neither they showed weakness when facing an existential threat from the Soviet Union. Why NCR, that is the closest thing to pre-war states we have in the setting should be any different?
People always use the fact that the legion knifes and spears as a reason why they would loose in the end. The legions ideology of only warriors who are proven without firearms are given them means the men with them are a whole lot more dangerous
I still remember my first playthrough of NV and was amazed by the legion when I was still a kid , but understood Caesar and his motives well enough. But what really sealed the deal for me with choosing the Legion over the other factions was that the Legion wasn't going to save civilisation the easy way like how the NCR believes if they copy pre war America they can reclaim it or how House planned on using the NCR to grow his wealth and abandon Earth entirely for space, the Legion was going to fight tooth and nail conquering and assimilating the rest of humanity and build a new civilisation that has adapted to life in the wasteland and will thrive while the others die out. And yes by our standards the Legion is "evil" because it's an autocracy and practises slavery, but we need to remember this isn't our world in the world of Fallout democracy is a failed system and simply doesn't work anymore where as the Legion under Caesar does
@@theeternal2734 the Roman empire lasted nearly 1500 years and as for the historical Caesar, he was assassinated by the same people he forgave despite rebelling against him. New Vegas Caesar doesn't have this problem he'd sooner crucify the senate than forgive them
@@CaesarSonOfMars One Problem, Unless Caesar Has A Succession Program Where He Actually Trains The Next Caesar The Legion Would Dissolve Back Into Tribalism With Bickering Heirs Once He And The Legate Die
@@theeternal2734 you do realize that the Legion is a meritocratic hierarchy right? Whoever was below Lanius would be promoted to second in command. There would always be a successor. This is also excluding the theory that the Courier was being groomed to be a successor.
@@CaesarSonOfMars Yes But They Don't Have The Knowledge And Wisdom Of Caesar To Move The Legion Along Properly, They Only Know His Current Teachings Not His Plan For The Future
The question at the end of the video of if a liberal democracy can exist in the wasteland is very similar to the question of if liberal democracies can exist in many parts of our modern world. A major flaw in foreign policy for western nations is the idea that we can or even should try and recreate liberal democracies in places where the people simply aren't ready for them. Whenever we try to set them up and then leave them to their own devices they always revert back into whatever organization their environment supported originally. The Middle East, Africa, and Asia are all prime examples.
Caesars legion is a little larpy but it's not not necessarily technophobic, Caesar just doesn't wanna give guns to illiterate tribals and slaves. And regarding how their society is structured, what we see of the legion are military camps, not settlements.
Its really because his army is largely comprised of slaves that are motivated more by Heirarchy than ideology. They're more afraid of the Centurion behind them then the enemy ahead of them. Especially when that centurion has a hunting rifle and they have a scrap metal spear. Its just easier to manage from such a central point of power.
@@Hifuutorianwhy supply your soldiers with a limited resource that they have no means or knowledge on how to make more of. When you could instead teach them how to use their environment to make healing powder. The legions is big on its soldiers being self sufficient that’s why they practice melee so even without a gun their still dangerous
I think the Legion honestly resembles Sparta more than Rome and NCR resembles ancient Athens more than America. Historically Sparta militarily conquered Athens but through that Athenian culture ultimately conquered all of Spartan society and after that Sparta never rose to be a military power and was conquered by Rome.
Note that for both House and the NCR, you’re required to solve all their problems and they never actually learn from their mistakes. The legion, however, will do what it does regardless if you help them or not, you actually have to actively oppose them to prevent their progress. They aren’t necessarily bound by your existence to move forward. The NCR deserves to take every fat L given to them, it’s for their own good if they want to learn for the better. By siding with them you’re just their babysitter who prevents the NCR from facing it’s problems, there’s a point to be made that helping them in the game probably leaves them worse off in the long run, regardless of who wins.
I mean. After synthesis, what do you expect to happen. Because I promise you lanius is gonna do a hannibal. Rome just happened twice. That's not going to be loss on the legion.
@@nkosig4995 I think how people describe Lanius and how he actually is in person when you meet him are two different entities. I mean he’s a pretty intelligent guy, not necessarily the brute people try to write him off as. He’s willing to be convinced that conquest could have unforeseen consequences for the legion and will back off if you make him come to an understanding with you. That’s something you can’t say for someone like General Oliver for example, who’s about as stubborn and as intelligent as a mule. You can make the argument that Lanius even has a more open mind than Caesar himself.
@@t.b.cont. well ya. Hannibal and lanius weren't really what i was calling out. it was more ceaser/ rome itself. the legion doesn't actually offer anything to society. it has assimilated tribes but wiped them of their culture and their value. the whole joke that hes just obsessed with rome, isnt really a joke. hes not replicating the mongols. hes replicated rome at its worse and at its fall. in all honesty and i know its messed up. lanius has more to offer than Cesar. a centralized religion going back to the polytheistic gods would benefit the wasteland enormously. but sadly most of the legion cares more abot cesears ego being stroked than actually building a functional society (back in arizona they scavenge in towers because wild dogs have wiped out their entire home army)
@@nkosig4995 Caesar offers stability at all costs, a civilization that can survive and possibly thrive in the wasteland. And fnv presents it as successful, despite how unfair living under it may be. Democracy has failed in the wasteland, supporting a group like the NCR won’t work because all they offer is a dead end
@@t.b.cont. I mean, you get that it's just one giant raider group right? Yea lanius actually understands his limits, and how he can't keep both the west and east. Total war will never work with a raid base society. But ceaser doesn't. His actually, genuinely delusional. Ceaser (both) brought peace too whom? Does a society like this deserve to exist? It's not even actually copying Rome. It's just a giant raiding group. At no point does he offer new tech like the Romans. At no point does he embrace new cultures. He copies Rome at it's lowest point, right before it's fall. The legion is destructive, even to itself. Legion has no raiders because the raiders are now the legion.
The best part of New Vegas that there isn’t an inherent “good” or “bad” ending. All forms of governments are flawed in one way or another and you just got to pick and choose the best case scenario
Maybe. I can see it living if Caesar were to pull a "night of the long knives" and off Lanius. And if he were to do that and groom vulpes for the role a bit as well as name him his successor he would make a good leader and statesman
@@jaushuagrahamthefloridaman1124 I don’t think he’d need to kill Lanius but I think he would need to find a better successor than Lanius such as Vulpes or even the courier .
I think it makes the most sense if the time line works out like this if the courier doesn't exist. The legion wins and is able to march into Vegas with heavy losses. Ceaser dies shortly after due to brain cancer. Lanius is obviously able to take the army in Vegas. Other generals in other parts of the empire take their army and either declare that they are the true heir. They would have no reason not to because at this point Lanius is fucked. He has to fight the NCR, the raider gangs in Vegas, and other parts of the legion. Plus he has to be able to start administrating Vegas which he has never had any experience in. This is exactly the kind of thing that happened to Ceaser IRL as well as Alexander.
The first 30 seconds of this is pretty much how I ended up in the military. “Gee mister, I was just hoping to teabag some terrorists and let them know they belong on a cross.”
There's a misunderstanding I think about the nature of homosexuality and misogyny. This analysis assumes that those things are not part of the "liberal" society embodied by the NCR, but part of a philosophy that exists independent of it. The idea in this video is that acceptance of homosexuality and female suffrage is an objective good that the Legion lacks, and that their reason for rejecting it is pure pragmatism. Its not a surprise that the majority of individuals who played FNV and are personally more reactionary prefer the Legion over the NCR, because they are perfect reactionaries. Like you said, there is an overly complex and inefficient system that the NCR has for combating raiders which is reliant on bureaucracy and the cold, indifferential actions of soldiers as instruments of the state. The Legion on the other hand efficiently captures and crucifies raiders not because it is the law, but because they are ideologically opposed to raiders on a deeply personal level. In the same way, it is assumed that homosexuality and female suffrage will come to be accepted because that is the default state, when there is no evidence that that is the case, nor is there evidence that the Legion would accept it as a natural synthesis.
I forgot where, but there was cut content where Caesar explains he has no problem with women in military or governmental positions, but his society is so bureaucratically shaky that he has to keep society split in sex roles so that he has half the nation ready to fight and half the nation maintaining itself. Additionally, Caesar's word is law to Legionaries, who just believe whatever he says. So if he is to make it to the legion's conquest of shady sands, then he can easily decree anything he pleases. He lets the Legion believe what they want, because the vast majority are savages who are led by emotions. He can give orders, but can't demand they understand them. You may notice that only lesser members of the Legion harp on about women, while actually high ranking members have no quarrels with women: (Vulpes, Lucius, Caesar and Lanius for example). Finally, it seems pretty obvious that the courier, regardless of sex, is being mentored by Caesar to become to next Caesar. From being minted in coinage, to being given all the information he has about the Legion and why, even though that information is punishable by death, as seen with the followers being banned from Legion land. Having a female courier goddess who the Legion follows would obviously be pretty culturally important to their understanding of the sexes. Also, Legion's criminalization of homosexuality is only on paper: in practice, if one fills the birthrate quotas, a blind eye is turned to whatever else a Legionary does.
Wow thank you for giving non-edgy explanations/justifications of legion rule. Great video, if Caesar can survive then maybe he would form a great new society, but he’s an older man even if the cancer doesn’t take him, with a major succession crisis. If there’s no Augustus in the West to follow him then I could see both factions collapsing and perhaps Mr House coming out on top if Caesar doesn’t kill him.
The Legion reminds me sort of to the Ottoman Empire and how it went from a tribal confederacy to an empire, while it conquered Byzantium and then took over a lot of the administration from it during its conquest.
I love your way of looking with a materialistic way rather than with a idealist one, i much more realist and interesting. Looking at the why of the mysoginia of the legion or the homophobia is so much more interesting and intelligent than just looking at it and saying "muh they are the baddies". Good video!
@@yaboiii6562 yeah, for studying things such as this is necesary that we take away morality and look at the reasons for something, mainly economic, because as we can see, the Caesar's legion, because of their ideas, couldn't industrialice, and the only way of reproducing commodities at a low cost is by slave labour, just as in ancient times
I dunno if I’m buying this dude. The NCR has a population of 700,000. Caesar has conquered 86 tribes, so let’s be generous and say their population is about 100,000 (it’s probably less, and only the men fight). This by itself bodes ill for the Legion. I bet if they did somehow manage to win, the NCR senate or whatever government left would just declare that the Legion is the new military of the NCR. The Central Valley of California is huge. You could easily settle 100,000 people there without them even having to interact with the rest of society. Throw the Legion against the Empire of Shii to kill two birds with one stone.
@RadTheLad Maybe, maybe not. The first NCR states the Legion would invade would be the Hub, Dayglow and the Boneyard. Lots of urban fighting through all of the Greater LA metropolitan area. And even if they win, they’re just Kings of the ashes. All of the brahmin pastures have got to be in the Central Valley of California, and all the farms in protected little mountain valleys. Those are all pretty far from the front lines of a legion invasion striking the Hub. Plus Shady Sands the town is still untouched up in the Owens Valley and thus well protected by mountains on both sides. It would be a threat to the Legion’s flank while they bashed their heads against the hills surrounding LA. Alternatively if the Legion struck Shady Sands first the NCR could strike at them from behind from Dayglow and the Boneyard. The Legion would never win in the long run. Their supply lines back to the Dam and Flagstaff are just too long through the radioactive desert for a tribal horde...
@RadTheLad sure to all that :) But without the Courier’s intervention Caesar will die right before the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. Therefore Laneus will be in charge and he’s no Caesar. He’s just a savage tribal from nowhere Arizona whom the NCR has outnumbered 7-1
@RadTheLad Caesar would have already done that if it were possible to trust anybody within the Legion with the truth of his condition. He can’t show weakness. If he does he’s dead by the knife (like his name sake) instead of a brain tumor.
@RadTheLad just like the guy said either he dies or an revolt happens because he gets special treatment from a machine rather than using herbal medicine like his men and that shows weakness
Good video, but Moore was not a result of nepotism, but actually a competent officer, a former ranger, and in fact just an example of how she was passed up instead for someone like Kimball who is clearly an incompetent.
That’s what I like about New Vegas factions is that they’re all flawed and you as the player must ask your self if you can look past their flaws for the sake of the potential good they could bring.
Not on the subject on the Legion, but it seems that (especially in the Mojave) the NCR is army first, and politics second, and because of this, those under the NCR's rule see them as an army that simply rushes into their land to use their resources and recruit soldiers.
Why I first played NV I was honestly happy when I saw the town with the Gangers on the cross. I honestly thought the Legion did the world a favor. I was later disappointed about the town's civvies though. I sided with the NCR, mostly because I am attached to it. I knew Aradesh and Tandi, helped them build the Republic. How could I turn on the NCR when it needed me the most? ps, I was honestly surprised to see the Khans alive. Like really, guys?! How many times do I have to massacre these guys? Raiders are scum and apparently roaches.
Clearly Caesar has never played Rome: Total War or else he would know just how hard it is to keep new territory and keep public order high. The conquest is probably the easiest part.
What most NCR Fanboys don't seem to understand about the legion: Nipton was brutalized for being a town of backstabbing degenerates and criminals, they legion doesn't just crucify people for fun. The legion we see is the military frontier, yes they use slaves of conquered people, but only on these frontiers to power their war effort. Their treatment of women is barbaric and cruel but also pragmatic, using them as a means to have an infinite supply of new legion troops. We constantly hear that legion territories are incredibly safe and citizens are free to live, work and grow without heavy taxation. By comparison NCR struggle to protect their own citizens because they are spread so thin and crippled with corruption, many of their citizens struggle to make a living due to heavy taxation, so poverty, raiders, crime still exist. The legion is also not against technology, they just only troops who have proven themselves ready and worthy to use it. They want technology to be an addition to strength not a base or "crutch" to rely on. Which is why an Alliance with the Brotherhood makes sense, the Brotherhood want to gatekeep technology, the Legion will only utilize it when they prove worthy. The current legion is not the long term legion. The entire point of the legion is to change once they have conquered NCR, to shift from the brutal expansion to a nation of people free to live and grow in stability and safety. Admittedly this would require heirs who understand Caesars will and goal, could be the courier, could be someone else. Ultimately with humanity trying to scrape together in a wasteland hell hole, the Legion seems like the best choice for humanities future. They have the safest most stable, corruption free society for its citizens but it requires a brutal and cruel methods to achieve. Ultimately the Legion is about devoting it's citizens and troops to a higher purpose, than themselves. Currently neither the NCR or Legion provide a good long term society for humanity, the synthesis of the two that Caesar aims for maybe just be what humanity needs.
Too Bad The Legion Is The Most Fragile Faction In The Game, If Caesar Dies Assuming He Didn't Plan An Heir All His Talks Of Transforming Society Would Never Happen
The problem with the "means to an end" thing, is that the means never come to an end. One thing about most fascist regimes we've seen in the real world is that they try to convince their populace that there's a constant crisis and threat to their nation they need to sacrifice for. So regardless of if they win the war, I don't think they're going to change and they're going to use that constant state of crisis to further support the system that keeps people that are currently high positions in power.
no fasistic regime has made it to the point of having no threats so itsw a bad comparison, be it the volsheviks to the nazis or the comunists/libdems to franco
See he brings up points that I agree with But its why I side with house He is a dictator and good at what he does but he also has libertarian ideals and freedom doesn't reqire democracy it requires freedom as an ideal
12:45 Okay, look if you are looking for a model of government to avoid pettiness and decadence Rome really is not the one to go for, it was increasingly riddled with corruption at all levels throughout it's existence and decadence pretty much defined it's society. This videos interesting but it's a flawed outlook as it makes a number of assumptions, such as The Legion stopping once it hit the sea and evolving into something new, it's far more likely they'd just pick a new direction and use that considerable logistic skills to move their army that way and 10 years from the end point of New Vegas the Legion will be hitting the holdings of the East Coast Brotherhood, an organisation with a technological advantage which dwarfs the NCR and a ruthlessness to rival the legions. This video assumes that once the current goal is met the Legion and NCR would assismitale each other to something new and that's just not how people work, the Legion gurnts and officers raised on a diet of glorious propaganda about the honour of combat settling down as a cast 0f protectors... I don't see it, more likely Cearser ends up dead by Laniuses hand and they Legion ranges in another direction till it either hits sea of a force it can't beat. People just don't change patterns of behaviour that neatly, esp when it benefits them, and the bounty of conquest and adrenaline rush of combat benefits the legions armies, they could never stop, only be stopped
@Roach honestly, beyond the cosplay Id argue that Ceaser's Legion don't even bare much resemblance to Rome's Legions, they were disaplined organisations that won through superior technology and tactics, they would have advanced teams building roads infront of the legionaries advance, doesn't really sound much like The Bull. A better comparison would be Ghengis Khans Mongolian empire, a empire which used terror to gain compliancefrom the city states it dominated but relied on foward momentum to survive, at Khans death and it's division between his sons it collapsed under it's own weight. Having just listened through Ceaser's speech on my current play through (before shooting the shit out of his camp for fun) his plan is flawed, it is the belief of a man with an abundance of education (and honestly even that's up for debate in Ceaser's case) and no real experience or understanding of how people work, he seeks to create a crucible where the ideologically opposed forces will clash, his legion eventually dominates but is changed by the experience into a noble protector class of the citizenry of a new multi-state empire... Either he's living in a fantasy land or that brain tumour was fucking with his judgment even more than we thought. The idea an army of conquest would simply stop and become sentinels of a civilization their barbarism means they could never fully be a part of, or that his hegemonised identity would simply take through out the NCR is nieve at best. And this is assuming the Legion could win long term which I have doubts about, fire the bulk of New Vegas the Legion is fighting 2nd line conscripts and nearly breaking even, NCR is at the end of its supply lines and overstretched, even wining at the Dam doesn't help the Legion, as the push further west they become the ones over extended and in hostile territory facing more and more of the NCR's technological advantage, out manuvered by motorised and Vertibird born infantry and out gunned by the NCR's heavy armour units the Legion is smashed in a matter of months beyond any hope of repair. Whether the NCR would survive a strike that deep into their territory as a single unified entity is a different question, I think they'd likely shatter in the next couple of years into several different city or regional power blocs. For me Legion, no plan just the delusional ramblings of a mad man with a brain turmor. House, depends if you trust the dirty robot fucker with the keys to the kingdom and I don't trust any self-confessed autocrat which leaves NCR or Independent and I'm not sure on that one which is why I've been hedging my bets on the current playthrough and have gone bounty hunting instead, I'm leaning to independent as NCRs imperialist goals need curbing but it also creates a buffer state between the Legion and NCR which as the Legion eventually implodes will shield the last unified human society from the worst of the fallout (mainly figurative, possibly literal)
@@maddlarkin This isn't something unheard of, you have a lot of examples in our own history. All the tribal armies that invaded and conquered China were assimilated into Chinese culture. This happened with the Visigoths, the Franks the Turks and so on. Once a raiding nomad army settles they adopt the culture and religion of their surroundings, they also lose what gave them their edge and adopt all the weaknesses of the empires/kingdoms they conquered. I think if the legion conquered the ncr they wouldn't merge into something better but something worse. They would lose their ferocious army and adopt all of the weaknesses and problems of the Ncr. All of these would be doubled due the larger territory they would occupy. I like the legion because they are fuckin metal in game not because they have good philosophy lol.
@@maddlarkin I find that I like independent the most so long as you put all the work in to really stabilize it (especially upgrading the securitrons). If you half-ass the preparations, people get totally screwed over big time
@@NeoCreo1 I have to admit, while I usually go NCR, I'm leaning to a Independent Vegas, fully secured of course. Even makes sense if your an NCR loyalist, a buffer state will check the legions spread and a defeat here would curb the NCR's colonialist tendencies allowing them to focus on internal issues and development rather than the next town to annex
Don't forget that the Legion was going to buy Energy Weapons from the Van Graffs if you do their questline. So clearly Caesar was ready to arm his soldiers with advanced weaponry for the Battle.
Fire weapons are technically energy weapons apparently
@Xavier Batten Fiends got their Energy Weapons from the Vault they took over.
@@ArmouredProductions fiends canonically got their energy weapons by a mistake in coding, but the vault 3 was a convenient cover up.
@@Arcticroberto9376 I'm pretty sure every vault is issued with bullet weapons, so they used this genius cover up instead of recoding it all.
@Xavier Batten Vault 3 have quite an armory though
Imagine what it would be in like 300 years when global communication becomes possible again and the rest of the world finds out North America has become a new Roman Empire.
And maybe in reverse Italy has a faux American empire
@@yaboiii6562 imagine the rest of the world of the world, (except china) is still normal as today, but never really checked up on the USA anymore after that event, and when they finally sent people there, they find out about the absolute destruction of the USA and see what there instead of US are these bizarre factions. I wonder what every country's reaction would be to it.
@@csmrookie9600 Britain's reaction: WE'RE GOING BACK, LADS
@@CarboKill Italy's reaction: Caesar's legion huh? Nice.
All we need now is sexy Hadrian x Greek BF fanfictions for the new Roma North America.
It is such a great shame that they didn't get the time they needed to adequately flesh out the legions quests, gameplay and lore as much that they initially wanted. It portrays them as such a insubstantial faction in the game and makes them out to not really feel accurately represented as the force they supposedly are according to much of the dialogue in the game.
Agree. It seems like they initially played with the idea of writing them as an actual nation that, while brutal and ruthless, had a philosophy and core values capable of building a functional civilization. However, their uneven portrayal made them look instead like just the average and undoubtedly "bad guys" that must be destroyed. The kind of faction you would only join for the lolz (just like The Master or Enclave from the previous Fallout games) and not because you actually think they are doing something good.
Also sad they were one point off on their metacritic score and didn't get their bonus
@@klaykid117 yep, the project appear to be somewhat plagued by unfortunate circumstances, both during and after development. It's really rather fortunate and impressive that the final product turned ended up becoming such a beloved game in the end, despite the unfortunate circumstances.
Nah, if Caesar's Legion was anything like the Romans they would have worked on a logistical supply capable of providing a hunting rifle + bayonet (edit: maybe even call it a "Pylum") and explosives for every Legionnaire once they've completed their training. Pin down the enemy with guns and flank with shock troops. If the enemy is well fortified, apply dynamite/grenades/mortar fire to the problem until they're gone.
Tl;dr: Legion would be an actual threat if they adopted NCR gun culture. Maybe even hire a Gunner as an advisor.
@@Sextus70 It's a damned shame to be honest. Whenever I say that I genuinely think that the Legion could be a better government for the Mojave since, well, they *are* in my opinion, I just get shouted down as a fascist by people who don't bother actually delving into their lore since the game didn't really do so either.
One of the issues is that people don't get that we're not really seeing the actual civilians under the legion we only actually see the military parts
Eh, that's a critical flaw of New Vegas, IMO. We're told about how awful it is to live under the NCR, with taxes and barons forcing their citizens to be rather destitute. But in the game, all the people who live under NCR-occupied regions in the Mojave (and just like the legion, this is only the military parts of NCR rule) seem to be doing quite fine, and come off as more whiny than anything else. We're told about how they're brutal imperialists, but Primm begs for the NCR to take over their town, and the conflict between settlers and natives in Freeside turns out to be just a big misunderstanding in-game.
Conversely, we're told all about how safe and secure life in the Legion is, with no raiders and safe roads. But in the game, all we see from the legion is how every woman is a brutally abused sex slave with nothing to live for but to have kids, and how every man is a brainwashed slave soldier who wants nothing more than to go to battle and take more sex slaves. Anywhere with Legion presence in the Mojave is either a slave den (Cottonwood cove), the site of a massacre/genocide (Nipton), or a massive slave fort with gladiatorial combat (The Fort).
The game fails to "show, don't tell." It TELLS you that the NCR aren't all that great and the Legion isn't all that bad, but everything in the game from the environment to gameplay systems (if it's meant to be morally grey, then why does killing Legionnaires give karma?) tell you that the NCR are generic, do-gooders who need the PC's help to achieve their goals in the face of a more powerful evil faction, the Legion. The game itself, despite all the lore, shows the Legion as an evil raider band, functionally no different than the Fiends except for being bigger, badder, and more organized (and banning chems, I guess).
I mean honestly, even in lore the legion is pretty cartoonishly evil: Lanius is said to regularly rape and kill women in sacrifices to ARES, ffs
@@TheMonkeystick @Nick Toons primm doesn't beg the ncr for anything they'll happily accept anyone and they actually have an objectively worse ending under the ncr furthermore they are more than happy to violently put down dissent in freeside if the player doesn't nudge them away from it and have a clear flagrant disregard for people of the Mojave but also the soldiers and citizens freely thrown away like trash in the pointless resource drain that is the Mojave and they aren't even capable of holding on to it they pretty much need the courier to wipe their ass every step of the way to even stand a chance against the legion whereas in alegion run your effectively putting on finishing touches and tying a few loose ends and mr house is in a unique situation that requires a proxy to his will and it's not like it would stop at the Mojave either by letting them win Hoover dam you simply embolden the policies that git them into that situation to begin with but not before they gun down anyone who opposes their "peaceful integration: of the Mojave it's going to happen again and the player will not be there to wipe their asses forever
@@ravensflockmate After a seven year long war, the people in california are tired of sending their loved ones to die in fruitless expansion. Beyond vegas lies legion territory and north of that is utah. Will they annex more as centuries pass? Maybe, just remember fallout 2 was 40 yrs ago, theyve been doing this for awhile. The problem with NCR lie within its leadership, but unlike caesar or house, that leadership is always subject to change.
Considering no matter what, this was the ncr's vietnam. NCR vets get sweaty when machetes start speaking latin. Theyre probably going to see a rise in pacifist hippie culture
@@ravensflockmate Actually no, the NCR ending is technically the best for primm since it flourishes afterwards, provided the NCR won the battle of hoover dam.
@Jesus Achmed The reason for the moore being a brutal crazy bitch is because she fought againt all the factions she orders you to kill, and seriously just look at them, the BoS mojave chapter are glorified raiders who are extremely fanatical and will exterminate anyone who doesn't give away their technology even if it means burning down a town with eldery and children in it, the great khans are civil when you first talk to them but when you listen to bitter-root's story you will notice they were animals just like their ancestors in the original games, if they had enough manpower they would surely as fuck pillage and raid several towns, the only ones who don't deserve to die are the kings, but you can get colonel hsu to solve the situation peacefully and not result in a massacre, even ambassador crocker begs you to talk to colonel hsu instead which gives a sense of morality, the only one who is fairly questionable is hanlon.
Also Caesar is the only faction leader that inmortalizes your face in coin for all of history.
Ah yes, the ONLY real reason to serve Caesar. 😌✨
@@prancingsquid Yes but you can't throw Lee Oliver over the dam in that ending, so it can't be the best ending.
Mr.House could possibly make you inmortal in the future so...
I'm %100 certain that Caesar will say the female courier was a goddess that his father Mars sent in order to aid him in his holy quest.
@@Kreia. Roman emperors elevated their male lovers for less, so there is precedent
Ironically, according to Hegelian dialectics, it should be the other way. Hegel believed that in history, the synthesis is produced by the nations embodying new ideas, according to him towards more and more freedom, and their interactions with the old. Since, according to Hegel, society moves towards more freedom, the NCR should form a synthesis with the Legion.
Valid point. Potentially could be argued its another example of Caesar twisting existing topics to suit his own narrative.
isnt the ncr the 'old' in the fallout universe?
@@cosmomari4669 nope it’s canon
@@yesman350 he means the NCR is the status quo, the thesis, and so the "old" or "aboriginal" in the conflict.
@@francesco3772 Exactly.
"you join the NCR? lame. you'll be given a puny branch and forgotten in 2 centuries. You join the Legion? epic. you will be remembered as a great warrior, strength rivalling that of Lanius, alongside immortalized in the currency."
I mean you'll be know as the person to stop the stalemate, saved many lives, stop the threat to the people that'll get hurt, basically saved the NCR, saved the NCRs president (players choice), and destroyed the legion before it destroyed itself
More than that you become heir to the throne. You ultimately have the best shot at creating the perfect legion Caesar envisioned
@@jacobwhitley3767they'd cut you out
@@andryuu_2000 except they don't Caesar treats u better than any other faction he prints ur face on currency which implies ur next for the throne. House treats u as nothing more than a lapdog. Similar to NCR, which give u a fucking branch for ur service. A CIVILIAN branch at that.
"immortalized"
Legion falls apart like 20 years after Caesars death and the coins get melted down for new ones
The last thing I expected to hear today was "The Legion is like Cell from DBZ".
I wasn't sold on the Legion till Caesar brought up Hegelian Dialectics. That's my second favourite form of Dialectics!
What's the first?
Dialectical Materialism. The best form of both dialectics and materialism
@@mrsniffles5417 yikes. Rev up those choppers
@@mrsniffles5417 Ah yes, the immortal science.
@@mrsniffles5417 my man
man, this really made me look at the legion differently
It doesn't really matter what you think of the Caesars Legion because no matter what Courier does they still lose th-cam.com/video/EBAHzsqBmCA/w-d-xo.html
@@vietcongwarlord6931 what if the NCR didn't have the Courier to help them than huh??
@@shadysam7161 Who cares?
@@vietcongwarlord6931 clearly you do.
@@vietcongwarlord6931 legion would've won without courier's intervention
Caesar's view on Hegelian dialectics is more like how Genghis Khan lead the Mongolian empire. You adopt the best parts of your enemy's culture/politics and assimilate them into your whole empire. It forces your citizens to understand the new citizens while simultaneously improving the empire as a whole. Creates unity where normally there would be divides and holds the empire together, which is why when people say things like "when Caesar dies the legion will fall apart" I know better.
Didn't the his empire immediately collapse into ruthless warlords after his death?
@@nkosig4995 Yes, but it propelled society farther than it would have otherwise been, similar to the Norse and Danish in Europe. The Swedes not only pushed my country into a new age, but flat out created the country. There would have been no order or larger society without these factions. No change is forever, save the concept of change.
@@lupusinvictus2229 lmao yes. And I actually think gehngis did made things better in the end. But the problem with ceaser is that other than dressing like a roman, he offers nothing. Rome and the kahn's brought modern society, civilization, medicine, WOMANS rights, exploration of sexuality. Ceaser has litteraly none of these. The man is insane, and honestly, blatantly incompetent. If legate lanius loses a single battle, ceaser will have him killed. And that will be the end of the legion. It's inevitable. Lanius is probably smarter THAN ceaser. Bringing a centralized religion and actually willing to negotiate.
Except there weren't many women's rights originating from these people to speak of. What you had, you had at the tip of a spear and women were never traditionally the type. Women's rights were more popular in smaller tribes, and typically near the middle east like Bedoins, Scythians, Sarmatians and more. Rome, Greece, Mongolia and China all typically treated women same as we do. The advancement of the other concepts typically come naturally, but only when there is no war, and typically when civilizations get bigger. Peaceful, large nations = growth. The NCR is terrible at expansion, and Caesar's whole shtick is to grow rapidly so they can reach the stage where growth is maximized faster. That's how these warlike states ironically became the progenitors of modern civilization. There is no civilized people that got where they are without bulldozing someone first, and the biggest nations are the biggest culprits; America, England, Germany, Russia, China, France.
@@lupusinvictus2229 1) your kinda just wrong about china and mongolia. I don't know where you got that from khan's grandaughter was undefeated, woman ran entire towns, which would lead to china having confederacies led by women. Also, how is ceaser better than the ncr? He's just going to destroy everything. He doesn't have plans on ruling everything. Do you really think he's going to allow... Anything to exist? Maybe the van graff's but probably not since their led by a woman. Don't spout a ideology in defence of a specific situation. The ncr will share the power they gain at least. New vegas isn't going to be enslaved. It's going to be annexed. America didn't become rome. It became america but with radiation. Ceaser is a war lord cosplaying. He offers nothing but destruction and slavery. How long would it take for his empire to look for another group the other. He's a far worse imperialist than the ncr. He's not even good at it. Nothing is inherintly good about "assimilation" he isn't technically advanced, his philosophies go unnoticed by his men, and his actions are incompetent. The ncr option has the most lives saves and more stable society. Free side gets the support of the entire government. Fuck the casinos and fuck the ceasers ego. Grab me a sniper and let me build some public infastructure.
Also the legion is hyper dependent on the ncr for survival. They don't have raiders because their litteraly made up of raider clans. of the ncr lose the roads the legion have no roads to raid
I sides Caesar every game other than my run when I sided with Mr. House. Most people use the ideas of today to judge these characters and that’s fine but in mine I prefer to see them through the eyes of a wastelander. I think Caesar has the most likely to succeed award in the end.
Caesar and House are my usual playthroughs as well. Yes Man just feels like it leads to anarchy and NCR needs way too much hand holding.
I think even by the standard of the wastelands Caesar's Legion is pretty fucked up in the stuff they do. Particularly if your courier has been to the NCR (which according to Ulysses they have) and seen the alternative
We all have our own eyes I suppose.
@@yaboiii6562 House is pretty much my exclusive playthroughs, i always get enthralled by that silver tounge
Succeed in taking over yes but ulysses is right about one thing, The bull will eventually turn on its self and die, its a raiding colony.
Ave, true to Caesar
awe
Ave, true to Caesar
Ave amicus
Ave, true to Caesar.
Salve, mi amice.
AVE TRUE TO CEASAR AND YOU CAN'T EXPECT GOD TO DO ALL THE WORK THE TIME FOR TALK IS PAST THE LORD'S WORK MUST BE DONE
Love seeing good Legion content on here. True to Caesar!
ChiefMaggot Ave, True to Caesar!
Well made very well-thought-out looking at the other side of the view what if the legion actually one and did it immediately implode just because of some people thought they would I'm going to recommend you to some of my friends really hope this channel doesn't die
I’m glad you enjoyed the video, and thanks for the shout out!
I think the biggest issue here is that Caesar's eventual goals are all well and good, but he seems to forget that the method by which you seek achieve those goals, has an impact on the outcome. Both the ends _and_ the means are important.
Also that just because this is what caesar wants to happen, doesn't mean it is what would happen. He'd have to destroy the NCR to take control then tell his legionaires to adopt the customs of those he just had killed
Also this is HIS vision, it’s very unlikely that few if any of his subjects know of his end goal, and heads up, even if you side with the legion the old man is probably gonna die soon anyways before he accomplishes his goals, which would lead to tall dark and broody Lanius taking charge, and we all know that Lanius would probably destroy society, not build it up like Ceaser, the NCR on the other hand, is easily fixable, a kickass president with some military support could massively reform the nation quite easily, the NCR is rotten yes, but said rot is easy to cure, the corruption hasn’t had time to entrench itself like it had with pre war America. The Legion is better but failing, and the NCR is worse but has potential
This implies he sincerely seeks those goals.
@@timyuusis3372the man does not want it to happen. He is not gonna make the legionaries adopt any NCR custom. He is bullshiting the courier with the dialectics talk. He literally tells you his state obliterates the identity of every group it conquers. Anyone who evwn suggests the wrongs of his ways, say gor example, a woman suggest maybe he shouldnt treat them like walking baby dispensers, will just be crucified. And no one has a say in the matter because Vaesar and the legion, both now and in the long term future, are inherntly opossed to democracy, therefore opossed to debate, and therefore opossed to synthesis.
@@Hifuutorianyeah no he is definitely full of shit
Great analysis again
My thinking this time is two fold:
1) As Arcade Gannon and Joshua Graham kinda hint at is that Caesar is far more of a sophist than a Marcus Aurelius, he treats the NCR as a society on the brink of collapse because it's currently weak in the NCR. As the American civil war and Britain in the second world war proved though, there's nothing that quite able to trim the fat and mobilise a democracy like exertstential threat. I think that people like Cait are so negative is because they have not been alive when the NCR has truly been at the knives edge. He also tries to treat Hegelian dialects (a flawed thinking system in out own time) to nation states rather than philosophical ideas, misunderstanding it in the process.
2) His death cult has ultimately doomed his own Empire, as hinted at with both his own idea of the original Caesars legion and the Legion of the 4th century. Both are totally and utterly dependant on a strong leader to maintain control and when that leader inevitably dies it falls apart. The Ceasarian civil war (with Marc Anthony and Augustus) shows very well.
3) It's easy to claim peace and prosperity when your Legion is barely a generation old. The NCR has had to fight hard and maintain its large and dense territory, raider gangs build up over time, Caesar hasn't had the chance to truly face one, since he's been able to absorb most of them already.
Caesar is, much like his idealised philosopher Hagal, too much of an idealist to truly foresee all the issues he's created for himself, an army of raiders and pilferers will only remain loyal while there is raiding and pilfering to be had. Once there is not he will find their loyalty is alot less firm than he thought.
Loved the video though
Appreciate the comment, and again, very valid points on all front.
@RadTheLad Even if Caesar ultimately fails, the war against the NCR will force them to shape up in the face of an existential threat like the Legion, which will accomplish at least some of what he wanted. Also, he could just do what the real Caesar did and adopt his successor. A Legion-aligned Courier with high INT and CHR would make an excellent heir once Caesar dies. If it can happen with Yes Man, it can happen with the Legion. The fact he mints the Courier's face on the same gold coin as himself might be foreshadowing of that eventually being possible. If I remember correctly, the face of the Aureus was usually reserved for the Roman emperor himself. I'm sure that Lanius being next in the succession line is only to ensure maximum military efficiency, and that he'll appoint a genuine successor once he's transformed New Vegas into his Rome.
I’m officially convinced Caesar’s Legion is the best option now, thank you!
Thanks for watching!
Yes but remember even if you save Ceaser the old man is prolly gonna die soon regardless before he synthesizes the NCR, which would put Lanius in charge, and I think it’s fairly easy to figure out how that would end…
I could hardly be more ideologically opposed to the Legion, but I also can't help but respect their strength, cunning and zeal.
NCR can win only if they put Hanlon in charge.
Oliver are incompetent leader, everyone know even Lanius is dissapointed about this, he get promoted to General because he's a friend of Kimball. When Courier try to persuade Lanius to retreat, one of the choice is informing there's a trap planted by NCR and the Courier think it's not honorable to defeat foes in such way, the only one can pull such trap to defeat the Legion is Hanlon.
Hanlon is equivalent of Caesar, without Hanlon leadership the NCR bound to fall, even Caesar respect Hanlon while he doubt Lanius is a great leader, that thing alone is a proof that Hanlon is formidable foe.
Also I remember in 1 of the ending when NCR lose the dam, Hanlon come back to the West and become a Senator while Kimball and Oliver political career went downhill. And in other ending when Hanlon dead, the Ranger lose their morale while nobody cares about Kimball & Oliver dead, meaning if Hanlon are the one who lead the 2nd Battle of Hoover Dam, NCR army morale is as high as Legion morale, or at least isn't as low as the current situation.
Caesar also state that he put Lanius in charge because it's make Legion soldier fear the one behind them (fear the wrath of Lanius) rather fearing the one they face (NCR), hinting Legionaries do fear NCR at one point.
NCR lost not because of the might of Legion, NCR lost because it's corrupt government.
That’s why I always thought the mister house ending was actually the best ending for the NCR, not the NCR ending. Oliver fails or is dead, Hanlon is in charge and the NCR has a good excuse to leave Vegas whilst still technically having a win against the legion. Their expansion stops for a while so they can focus on restructuring first and now there’s a buffer between them and the legion.
Me.House makes it clear too he still wants to do business with the NCR and their money will go directly to the creation of jobs and infrastructure in the region which will end up benefitting the NCR as well. House basically wants to use their system against them, and remain independent while integrating himself into their economic system so he can steer them that way.
@@poopbuDDiesfan Yeah but he called me a dummy that one time I wouldn't give him the Platinum Chip so I opened his life support chamber.
Poor colonel Hshu will never be a general 😢
@The nova renaissance lol, does Oliver even know they have artillery? Is that Canon?
@The nova renaissance the Legion can't fix the howitzer, without Courier it's still broken.
Hanlon already know majority of Legionaries are anti-tech, under normal condition the Legion couldn't use the howitzer. The only thing he didn't expect is the Courier, in fact nobody expect Courier interference.
You can't count that in afterall the Courier is counted as 1% error in every 99% guarantee success. Forget about stupid howitzer, the Courier can literally bring bomber airplane and Enclave Remnant's to join the battle. House acknowledged that the Courier is beyond his expectations and Caesar admit he fear the Courier, only the NCR didn't care about the Courier except for the ability to enter Lucky 38.
So without the Courier, the howitzer is still broken and Legion will take over the dam more easily.
Great video as always. Keep up the great work with your content!
Appreciate it - and thanks for subbing!
If only they could have finished the game so they could have added legion friendly companions.
Ulysses was meant to be one originally. Would have been cool walking around the Mojave with him at your side.
@@yaboiii6562 true, also just wanted to say i really appreciate these videos they are really entertaining.
Thanks mate, very kind of you to say
@@yaboiii6562 the videos are still appreciated to this day
Only got Raul and Lily in Legion playthroughs
The Legion plots in so many unmarked quests and side quests in the game, like Curtis bombing the monorail and the Fiends attacking NCR's base of operations in the Mojave at full strength to name a couple of examples are why the Legion would win without courier intervention.
Thoroughly enjoy the content you’re making, love seeing a more underrepresented side of the NCR-Legion conflict as well. Can’t wait to see where your stuff goes in the future!
Big Salmon appreciate it!
Legion would probably turn into Rome once it hits the sea, eventually collapsing in on itself....essentially what the NCR is doing in the Mojave...Ironic.
How is the NCR doing that
@@vietcongwarlord6931
Did you even play the game?
@@CommanderJaneShepard2154 Yes
@@vietcongwarlord6931 They are mimicking the old world USA, which is what caused a nuclear fallout in first place, and due to their fast and forceful expansion, they are basically a sport car going at full speed straight at a wall.
@@naitor2594 You really think that they would use nukes again? I think that's a stretch
Interesting points, this seems to be only the start of your content and its already quite good
nikerboker1995 thank you!
Since playing New Vegas as a kid I have always been drawn to the Bear, because of my own personal politics and the idealism of democracy and cooperation the NCR espouses but as time goes on and I realise how cretinous Oliver, Kimball and the Brahmin barons are - I find myself wondering if the Bull is the way forward. I often judge fallouts politics through the lens of my 21st century experience but I need to remind myself this is a literal wasteland. I still am drawn toward the bear as I am completely opposed to slavery no matter what the state of the world might be, but the NCR feels like its going to tear itself apart.
Anyway your videos are fucking incredible.
Thanks so much mate!
Unrelated Topic: Caesar with hair is cursed.
AAAAAAA-
He has hair
@@rngteatowel3080fuking charly brown ass looking translucid 1mm thick haircut
Okay... One of the reasons I like this channel over others is because it really makes you think rather than just give you information.
I really appreciate this content. To many people buy into there first play though as NCR and totally forget this franchise was never meant to be a story about good guys vs bad guys. It's meant to be a story about decisions and the way they effect the world.
It could be that the NCR are the first major faction you come across in prim and when you find them they're just being incompetent as usual rather than the first impression you get in Nipton from Vulpes. Not only that, but you need to ask the right questions before you learn why he crucified everyone.
"For a pittance, the town agreed to lead those it had sheltered into a trap. Only when I sprang it did they realize they were caught inside it, too."
It's sorta like polar opposites in the way you have to deconstruct each major faction.
The NCR on the outside looks good natured, ill advised, easy going and fair, but the further in you go the more you see they are brutal, arrogant, unjust, corrupt and really have lost control of the ship.
Then when you look a the Legion you see brutality, arrogance and abuses of justice, but on further investigation you can find a brotherhood of men with moral fortitude and a sense of justice who would die for each other. They have an enthusiastic leader who has greater plans, not only for the Mojave, but his empire. Granted the fact he had the Kings run off and crucified is uncool given they were basically just another roman cult to a strange god. lol
Like I said it's not meant to be about the good guys vs the bad guys. That's what keeps us all coming back to this old ass game we have to smash and cram mods into to make work right.
Frankly none of the options are the good guys. That said the Legion are certainly the worst option. They're nothing more than a well organized band of raiders.
@Rj-pw7zs you could say the same of the NCR except that their territories are less safe for their citizens than those of the Legion
@@paulbrule5897I think you’d have to actually be retarded if you think that the faction wearing football uniforms instead of actual armor would be better at keeping the Mojave safe.
The mass slavery is usually what keeps me away from the Legion because I consider myself someone with a basic understanding of morals
@@AcornScorn Well, to be frank, it's not hard to see why one would follow someone that brings peace to the lands even if it is at the cost of others dying or becoming slaves if you live in a nuclear wasteland.
It's kinda just what happens in societies surrounded with hostile lands, I guess.
Don't get me wrong, slavery bad, but other things are bad too, like letting roads be dangerous through neglect, or general poverty/instability amongst the populace, so whether or not the Legion improves most people's lot in life should probably matter just as much to you when talking about the ethics of a country.
The legion is my favourite faction
Mr house ftw
Legion bad but Femboy Vulpes Inculta good?
Finally someone with culture
@Ω true
@@user-vm5iu4bm8k I’m sorry, Fucking what?
Great video, I figured that Cesar had a goal after taking the NCR and that their just a glorified raider gang was wrong as they have towns and society's that sustain themselves and that their military and views are short term for their main goal to beat the NCR.
Well in a way he is the Roman Legions, but without a Rome or Italia.
But at the same time they burn villages, take women and make them slaves, and destroy any opposition or disagreement.
@@UhHellandDoomIguess well you have to remember their short term goal in the moment is to deal with the ncr at all cost and that means doing these sort of things and remember the Mojave is a war zone. Peace and stability at all cost then rebuild
@@camthaman2383 Caesar's legion is a fascist totalitarian dictatorship based on a cult of personality - they destroy culture and tear families apart on a mass scale. slavery, rape, murder, and other crimes against humanity run rampant in their territory... Also they don't have any formal command structure, so it's game over when Caesar dies. So basically they are evil in every way possible
@@SS-ff8jg I didnt say they weren't evil, I totally agree and part of me thinks there really isnt someone to takes cesar place because he doesn't want it, when he dies who cares what happens he just wants power and he cant get it through the NCR so he goes his own way to have full control I totally agree. And you have to remember this is the waste land where all that already happens its just in cesar case after all the pillaging and rape there is some order and safety in his territory, and some prefer safety over freedom during these times.
lol love it! - I sit here and listen to your soothing voice while I work
Thanks homie - hope you like my smooth ASMR in your ear.
10:20 the idea of women adding to a pool of future soldiers is self-defeating regardless of how large the population is. Each woman you add to the Legion's military ranks is one less potential mother, who could have provided any number of Legionaries instead. Not to mention the obviously superior effectiveness of males in combat roles compared to women. A rare woman could potentially be a Frumentarii if she was really that good, but the only real advantage in that would be to subvert the enemy's expectations of what a Legion-aligned infiltrator would look like.
Caesar's justifications for these social changes are pragmatic, but they are also rigid. You can look at exceptions to the rule all you want, but they never disprove the rule.
Though women in real life don't often make the best warriors, Fallout's Earth had displayed that women can fight on par with men. The mother thing is a conundrum though.
Thou with enough weapons we can mitigate these differences
@@testacals As proven by modern militaries, where special forces have no gender requirement, simply highly elite skills and knowledge, men are just better soldiers.
OR You can just give those weapons to the gender that is physically superior and arm more of them.@@testacals
Pretty neat that Cell reference dude :D
I personally really like the idea of Caesar's Legion along with the Brotherhood of Steel, their adoration for order, strenght and discipline, but with Caesar more focused on the natural body and Brotherhood with superpowerful technology
I personally think that in real life, democracies havent really worked out, ever. Maybe in some ancient times, but not in the superindustrialized modern countries. We must remember that in ancient times democracy could be easier to achieve and controll because of how small were populations, everyone know each other in every village and almost all shared the common goals of safety and prosperty, unlike modern us, that hadrly we know each other even in the same area, lets not say the same city. I like Caesar sacrificing a weak democracy for a stronger imperial structure, yet they need more than brute strenght to succeed in the long term, less slavery and more "flexibility" towards other fighting tribes, like the romans did with certain, valuable warrior tribes, instead of slaving them, just ally with them, "I'll respect your little territory and local rules if you respect me being around here. Both of us know that If we fight, I'll just destroy you and slave your children, and I dont want to lose men in a battle we could easily avoid by joining forces"
@Glockjaw Dude its power relies on its massive industry and military bodies, their quality of life is superlow. The US isnt powerful because MUH democracy, if something, Democracy only stops them to be even more destructive. Its like saying that Communism works 'cause China is a global power. The point isnt about power, at all, is about quality of life, wellness and order, things that your beloved distopy world doesnt have
All and all I think the Legion is the losing side in this history in the long run regardless of the Battle of the Hoover Dam outcome simply due to overwhelming superiority of the NCR in terms of industry and population. Keep in mind that in the Mojave the Legion fought a single expeditionary corps of the NCR, a large force, but by far not the entirety of the NCR military. The corps was far from home, undersupplied and undermanned and it still managed to beat the Legion in their first assault, requiring if maybe not full but close to it force of the Legion's army to be deployed for the second assault. If we assume that the Legion won at the Hoover Dam than in their next campaign they would be facing the entirety of the NCR military fighting at their own doorstep protecting their home - a battle which certainly doesn't favour the Legion. And even if they somehow manage to win it there is no chance they could establish a firm grip on their newly conquered lands. Lanius stated that the siege of one single city - Denver was a campaign that put the Legion on the brink of collapse and California has a dozen of such Denvers populated not by savages and dogs but by tens of thousands of probably well armed people who have very little liking of their new overlords and also let's not forget about the Brotherhood who wouldn't just sit and watch as a gang of slavering raiders ravages around Lost Hills and Navarro. In my opinion Caesar gravely underestimated the power of the West and the best ending for the Legion in the game was the one, where the Courier convinces Lanius to retreat, as the victory at the Dam would have been the prologue for the Legion's demise.
Caesar is not stupid he would think of a new strategy to deal with the NCRs core, and that is without a doubt to use the cracks in its structure to bring it down, he only needs to put pressure in the right places to cause the different parts of the NCR to fight amongst each other, at the end of the day he can offer up a hand to the people who are unhappy with the NCR and its job and cause internal strife whilst pushing in slowly and be welcomed as a liberator.
@@ilo3456 , in my opinion, the topic of NCR's cohesion as a political entity is very plausible, since we have very little information regarding internal political and economic situation within the republic. All we know that it's expanding and therefore we can assume that the domestic issues are under control at least to some degree.
@@egorkoshevoy6694 The issue with the NCR is that it is known that corruption and nepotism is rampant inside the NCR, certain places have political families that hold massive sway over the NCR's Senate, there are many Senators that are basically only senators because they hold large amounts of power in their local communities like in New Reno where we know that the crime families of New Reno have a lot of power, and so does Vault City.
I doubt that the NCR citizens are generally all that satisfied with the NCR specially following a withdrawal from The Mojave, many large interests in the NCR invested heavily into the Mojave as a new business opportunity and it might not just mean that the Legion are at the NCR's door might create more pressure inside the NCR.
@@ilo3456 the fact of the NCR being an oligarchy doesn't necessarily mean its weakness and instability, being run by a small powerful minority that is split into several interest groups is a normal situation for most of the states in human history, if there's enough space to expand and new markets to exploit, powerful financial groups within the state are more than capable of cooperation and venting excessive pressure from the underclasses. Them being in position of power means that the Caesar has nothing to offer them since they already run the country and have their interests being the state's highest priority. When a country's bourgeoisie faces a competitor that stands between them and their profits or an existential enemy that denies thier very right to dominate the society, they usually put aside their differences and unite against the enemy, showing some serious ingenuity and tenacity, when dealing with him. Historical examples for it could be the British Empire or the United States, they didn't collapse in infighting when the Germans or the Japanese challenged their dominance, neither they showed weakness when facing an existential threat from the Soviet Union. Why NCR, that is the closest thing to pre-war states we have in the setting should be any different?
If anything the Legion's invasion into the inner territories of the NCR would unite them towards the common goal of beating the Legion.
Awesome video dude keep up the work
Killjoy_530 appreciate it!
People always use the fact that the legion knifes and spears as a reason why they would loose in the end. The legions ideology of only warriors who are proven without firearms are given them means the men with them are a whole lot more dangerous
Well done enjoy these videos, hope to see more from you. Got to Caesar one thing he at least seems honest in what his aim's are.
Thanks for enjoying the content!
@@yaboiii6562 Enjoy your covering the legion and showing that their was a higher goal than just burn the wasteland.
I still remember my first playthrough of NV and was amazed by the legion when I was still a kid , but understood Caesar and his motives well enough. But what really sealed the deal for me with choosing the Legion over the other factions was that the Legion wasn't going to save civilisation the easy way like how the NCR believes if they copy pre war America they can reclaim it or how House planned on using the NCR to grow his wealth and abandon Earth entirely for space, the Legion was going to fight tooth and nail conquering and assimilating the rest of humanity and build a new civilisation that has adapted to life in the wasteland and will thrive while the others die out. And yes by our standards the Legion is "evil" because it's an autocracy and practises slavery, but we need to remember this isn't our world in the world of Fallout democracy is a failed system and simply doesn't work anymore where as the Legion under Caesar does
The Same World Where The Roman Empire Fell Too And Caesar Was Stabbed To Death If We Go By Historical Precedent Caesar Ain't Going That Far
@@theeternal2734 the Roman empire lasted nearly 1500 years and as for the historical Caesar, he was assassinated by the same people he forgave despite rebelling against him. New Vegas Caesar doesn't have this problem he'd sooner crucify the senate than forgive them
@@CaesarSonOfMars One Problem, Unless Caesar Has A Succession Program Where He Actually Trains The Next Caesar The Legion Would Dissolve Back Into Tribalism With Bickering Heirs Once He And The Legate Die
@@theeternal2734 you do realize that the Legion is a meritocratic hierarchy right? Whoever was below Lanius would be promoted to second in command. There would always be a successor. This is also excluding the theory that the Courier was being groomed to be a successor.
@@CaesarSonOfMars Yes But They Don't Have The Knowledge And Wisdom Of Caesar To Move The Legion Along Properly, They Only Know His Current Teachings Not His Plan For The Future
The sudden accent change from the intro to the video...
Made me feel like I got shot in the head by a 9mm handgun named Maria.
Okay, you fucking got me with the opening pun of "cuz hey... When in Rome"
Love your vids! Cant wait for a video on NCR or the Enclave
I think if these guys ever get a chance to make another game, and they get the time to do it, they'd shoe just how great the Legion could be
The question at the end of the video of if a liberal democracy can exist in the wasteland is very similar to the question of if liberal democracies can exist in many parts of our modern world. A major flaw in foreign policy for western nations is the idea that we can or even should try and recreate liberal democracies in places where the people simply aren't ready for them. Whenever we try to set them up and then leave them to their own devices they always revert back into whatever organization their environment supported originally. The Middle East, Africa, and Asia are all prime examples.
Just found your content and its amazing!! keep it up!
Ok you earned my subscription 3 minutes into the second video of yours I've seen , you know what's up with the legion
Thomas Truant appreciate it dude!
I’m subbing man. You deserve more subscribers. I’ve only seen 2 vids but I know I like what I see
D Benoit appreciate it mate!
Caesars legion is a little larpy but it's not not necessarily technophobic, Caesar just doesn't wanna give guns to illiterate tribals and slaves. And regarding how their society is structured, what we see of the legion are military camps, not settlements.
Its really because his army is largely comprised of slaves that are motivated more by Heirarchy than ideology.
They're more afraid of the Centurion behind them then the enemy ahead of them. Especially when that centurion has a hunting rifle and they have a scrap metal spear.
Its just easier to manage from such a central point of power.
@Habibi Arab Cat yeah, the NCR itself it's just larping America so what's the deal.
They aren't. They're a copy of the vagabonds of the german tribes who became the "Holy Roman Empire.
They ban the use of Stimpaks and RadAway. I'd say that is pretty technophobic.
@@Hifuutorianwhy supply your soldiers with a limited resource that they have no means or knowledge on how to make more of. When you could instead teach them how to use their environment to make healing powder.
The legions is big on its soldiers being self sufficient that’s why they practice melee so even without a gun their still dangerous
Damn bro only 583 subscribers your videos are dank. Mad underrated.
I think the Legion honestly resembles Sparta more than Rome and NCR resembles ancient Athens more than America. Historically Sparta militarily conquered Athens but through that Athenian culture ultimately conquered all of Spartan society and after that Sparta never rose to be a military power and was conquered by Rome.
I think it's pretty brilliant how they had him base his whole plan on an ideology he doesn't really understand.
You deserve way more views and subs
Thanks for saying that!
Note that for both House and the NCR, you’re required to solve all their problems and they never actually learn from their mistakes.
The legion, however, will do what it does regardless if you help them or not, you actually have to actively oppose them to prevent their progress. They aren’t necessarily bound by your existence to move forward.
The NCR deserves to take every fat L given to them, it’s for their own good if they want to learn for the better. By siding with them you’re just their babysitter who prevents the NCR from facing it’s problems, there’s a point to be made that helping them in the game probably leaves them worse off in the long run, regardless of who wins.
I mean. After synthesis, what do you expect to happen. Because I promise you lanius is gonna do a hannibal. Rome just happened twice. That's not going to be loss on the legion.
@@nkosig4995 I think how people describe Lanius and how he actually is in person when you meet him are two different entities. I mean he’s a pretty intelligent guy, not necessarily the brute people try to write him off as.
He’s willing to be convinced that conquest could have unforeseen consequences for the legion and will back off if you make him come to an understanding with you. That’s something you can’t say for someone like General Oliver for example, who’s about as stubborn and as intelligent as a mule. You can make the argument that Lanius even has a more open mind than Caesar himself.
@@t.b.cont. well ya. Hannibal and lanius weren't really what i was calling out. it was more ceaser/ rome itself. the legion doesn't actually offer anything to society. it has assimilated tribes but wiped them of their culture and their value. the whole joke that hes just obsessed with rome, isnt really a joke. hes not replicating the mongols. hes replicated rome at its worse and at its fall. in all honesty and i know its messed up. lanius has more to offer than Cesar. a centralized religion going back to the polytheistic gods would benefit the wasteland enormously. but sadly most of the legion cares more abot cesears ego being stroked than actually building a functional society (back in arizona they scavenge in towers because wild dogs have wiped out their entire home army)
@@nkosig4995 Caesar offers stability at all costs, a civilization that can survive and possibly thrive in the wasteland. And fnv presents it as successful, despite how unfair living under it may be. Democracy has failed in the wasteland, supporting a group like the NCR won’t work because all they offer is a dead end
@@t.b.cont. I mean, you get that it's just one giant raider group right? Yea lanius actually understands his limits, and how he can't keep both the west and east. Total war will never work with a raid base society. But ceaser doesn't. His actually, genuinely delusional. Ceaser (both) brought peace too whom? Does a society like this deserve to exist? It's not even actually copying Rome. It's just a giant raiding group. At no point does he offer new tech like the Romans. At no point does he embrace new cultures. He copies Rome at it's lowest point, right before it's fall. The legion is destructive, even to itself. Legion has no raiders because the raiders are now the legion.
The legion sounds really interesting!
True to Caesar!
Your legion takes mirrors my own, very good videos
The best part of New Vegas that there isn’t an inherent “good” or “bad” ending. All forms of governments are flawed in one way or another and you just got to pick and choose the best case scenario
wtf i love the legion now
@@ernestofloresvelo162 But the Enclave is a racist, fascist paramilitary organization that is objectively evil.
@@tonystank3091 lol. Also, Trump supporters
@@tonystank3091 they are not races just hate actual mutants and real subhumans like super mutants
@@eliezercohengoldberg1381 it’s referencing the frontier mod for nv, god that mod was garbage
@@eliezercohengoldberg1381 That most people in the wastes lol.
I think as soon as Cesar dies the empire shatters like Alexanders.
Maybe. I can see it living if Caesar were to pull a "night of the long knives" and off Lanius. And if he were to do that and groom vulpes for the role a bit as well as name him his successor he would make a good leader and statesman
@@jaushuagrahamthefloridaman1124 I don’t think he’d need to kill Lanius but I think he would need to find a better successor than Lanius such as Vulpes or even the courier .
@Green Earth - Not straight away like Alexander’s empire but certainly in a decade or so .
I think it makes the most sense if the time line works out like this if the courier doesn't exist. The legion wins and is able to march into Vegas with heavy losses. Ceaser dies shortly after due to brain cancer. Lanius is obviously able to take the army in Vegas. Other generals in other parts of the empire take their army and either declare that they are the true heir. They would have no reason not to because at this point Lanius is fucked. He has to fight the NCR, the raider gangs in Vegas, and other parts of the legion. Plus he has to be able to start administrating Vegas which he has never had any experience in. This is exactly the kind of thing that happened to Ceaser IRL as well as Alexander.
@@Valencetheshireman927 well lanius would contest any other heir so it would be prudent imo
Awesome Video! I hope that you'll make more video essays in the future.
Thanks Obama!
The first 30 seconds of this is pretty much how I ended up in the military.
“Gee mister, I was just hoping to teabag some terrorists and let them know they belong on a cross.”
You got issues, son
@@GDKF0238 if I have some issues, their’s are probably worse. (They’re dead)
i like how a bunch of kids grew up to like Fallout NV, and now we have the same new videos coming out that we had when the game was realeased
There's a misunderstanding I think about the nature of homosexuality and misogyny. This analysis assumes that those things are not part of the "liberal" society embodied by the NCR, but part of a philosophy that exists independent of it.
The idea in this video is that acceptance of homosexuality and female suffrage is an objective good that the Legion lacks, and that their reason for rejecting it is pure pragmatism. Its not a surprise that the majority of individuals who played FNV and are personally more reactionary prefer the Legion over the NCR, because they are perfect reactionaries.
Like you said, there is an overly complex and inefficient system that the NCR has for combating raiders which is reliant on bureaucracy and the cold, indifferential actions of soldiers as instruments of the state. The Legion on the other hand efficiently captures and crucifies raiders not because it is the law, but because they are ideologically opposed to raiders on a deeply personal level.
In the same way, it is assumed that homosexuality and female suffrage will come to be accepted because that is the default state, when there is no evidence that that is the case, nor is there evidence that the Legion would accept it as a natural synthesis.
I forgot where, but there was cut content where Caesar explains he has no problem with women in military or governmental positions, but his society is so bureaucratically shaky that he has to keep society split in sex roles so that he has half the nation ready to fight and half the nation maintaining itself.
Additionally, Caesar's word is law to Legionaries, who just believe whatever he says. So if he is to make it to the legion's conquest of shady sands, then he can easily decree anything he pleases.
He lets the Legion believe what they want, because the vast majority are savages who are led by emotions. He can give orders, but can't demand they understand them. You may notice that only lesser members of the Legion harp on about women, while actually high ranking members have no quarrels with women: (Vulpes, Lucius, Caesar and Lanius for example).
Finally, it seems pretty obvious that the courier, regardless of sex, is being mentored by Caesar to become to next Caesar. From being minted in coinage, to being given all the information he has about the Legion and why, even though that information is punishable by death, as seen with the followers being banned from Legion land. Having a female courier goddess who the Legion follows would obviously be pretty culturally important to their understanding of the sexes.
Also, Legion's criminalization of homosexuality is only on paper: in practice, if one fills the birthrate quotas, a blind eye is turned to whatever else a Legionary does.
@@jonahhudson2052ahem...it is mentioned that Lanius routinely r*pes and murders women as a sacrifice for his god
Cool Vid bro nice to see a fellow Fallout content creator!
damn i love that intro
Thank you mate!
@@yaboiii6562 bro this video was awesome thanks for making it!
Holy Shit how do you not have a 100,000 subs yet
Wow thank you for giving non-edgy explanations/justifications of legion rule. Great video, if Caesar can survive then maybe he would form a great new society, but he’s an older man even if the cancer doesn’t take him, with a major succession crisis. If there’s no Augustus in the West to follow him then I could see both factions collapsing and perhaps Mr House coming out on top if Caesar doesn’t kill him.
Appreciate it, glad you enjoyed it!
We don't know if there is an hier to the throne or not, its possible Casear has a child to continue the line
The Legion is the objectively superior choice.
The Legion reminds me sort of to the Ottoman Empire and how it went from a tribal confederacy to an empire, while it conquered Byzantium and then took over a lot of the administration from it during its conquest.
I TOTALLY FORGOT THAT THESIS AND ANTITHESIS LINE FROM CAESAR, OH MY GOD, CAESAR WAS A HEGELIAN
Great channel . You haven’t made many videos but I can see you’ve already made lots of great videos 👍
Thank you very much!
I love your way of looking with a materialistic way rather than with a idealist one, i much more realist and interesting. Looking at the why of the mysoginia of the legion or the homophobia is so much more interesting and intelligent than just looking at it and saying "muh they are the baddies". Good video!
Thanks for that! Definitely indefensible in our world, but goal was to explain how the why of it in the Fallout Universe.
@@yaboiii6562 yeah, for studying things such as this is necesary that we take away morality and look at the reasons for something, mainly economic, because as we can see, the Caesar's legion, because of their ideas, couldn't industrialice, and the only way of reproducing commodities at a low cost is by slave labour, just as in ancient times
Just gonna point out how incredibly based Hegelian dialectics is as a concept.
When you’re a kid you side with the NCR. When you’re an adult you realize Legion is where it’s at.
True. When a boy becomes a man, they become a dogmatically violent slave rapist.
You need therapy
Just wanna say i love your channel. Your fallout videos are awesome, hope to see more
BruhCorp thank you!
I dunno if I’m buying this dude. The NCR has a population of 700,000. Caesar has conquered 86 tribes, so let’s be generous and say their population is about 100,000 (it’s probably less, and only the men fight). This by itself bodes ill for the Legion.
I bet if they did somehow manage to win, the NCR senate or whatever government left would just declare that the Legion is the new military of the NCR. The Central Valley of California is huge. You could easily settle 100,000 people there without them even having to interact with the rest of society. Throw the Legion against the Empire of Shii to kill two birds with one stone.
@RadTheLad Maybe, maybe not. The first NCR states the Legion would invade would be the Hub, Dayglow and the Boneyard. Lots of urban fighting through all of the Greater LA metropolitan area. And even if they win, they’re just Kings of the ashes. All of the brahmin pastures have got to be in the Central Valley of California, and all the farms in protected little mountain valleys. Those are all pretty far from the front lines of a legion invasion striking the Hub. Plus Shady Sands the town is still untouched up in the Owens Valley and thus well protected by mountains on both sides. It would be a threat to the Legion’s flank while they bashed their heads against the hills surrounding LA. Alternatively if the Legion struck Shady Sands first the NCR could strike at them from behind from Dayglow and the Boneyard. The Legion would never win in the long run. Their supply lines back to the Dam and Flagstaff are just too long through the radioactive desert for a tribal horde...
@RadTheLad sure to all that :) But without the Courier’s intervention Caesar will die right before the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. Therefore Laneus will be in charge and he’s no Caesar. He’s just a savage tribal from nowhere Arizona whom the NCR has outnumbered 7-1
@RadTheLad Caesar would have already done that if it were possible to trust anybody within the Legion with the truth of his condition. He can’t show weakness. If he does he’s dead by the knife (like his name sake) instead of a brain tumor.
@RadTheLad just like the guy said either he dies or an revolt happens because he gets special treatment from a machine rather than using herbal medicine like his men and that shows weakness
700k at the time of fallout 2 tho. It’s not hard to believe that number has increased quite a bit by the time of 2281
Good video, but Moore was not a result of nepotism, but actually a competent officer, a former ranger, and in fact just an example of how she was passed up instead for someone like Kimball who is clearly an incompetent.
Ave, True to Caesar!
Although I don't agree with a lot of the points raised here, I do respect your opinion. Good video!
The NCR where completely useless in NV... they were the actual Heels (Bad Guys)
That’s what I like about New Vegas factions is that they’re all flawed and you as the player must ask your self if you can look past their flaws for the sake of the potential good they could bring.
Not on the subject on the Legion, but it seems that (especially in the Mojave) the NCR is army first, and politics second, and because of this, those under the NCR's rule see them as an army that simply rushes into their land to use their resources and recruit soldiers.
9:37 isn't that the justification of every cruel and immoral actions ever?
Why I first played NV I was honestly happy when I saw the town with the Gangers on the cross. I honestly thought the Legion did the world a favor. I was later disappointed about the town's civvies though. I sided with the NCR, mostly because I am attached to it. I knew Aradesh and Tandi, helped them build the Republic. How could I turn on the NCR when it needed me the most?
ps, I was honestly surprised to see the Khans alive. Like really, guys?! How many times do I have to massacre these guys? Raiders are scum and apparently roaches.
I love these videos.
Finally, someone brave enough to speak the truth. Big Ave.
Clearly Caesar has never played Rome: Total War or else he would know just how hard it is to keep new territory and keep public order high. The conquest is probably the easiest part.
nah bro that's why he just exterminates citys and demolishes all the foreign culture buildings dudes actually on point tw strats
What most NCR Fanboys don't seem to understand about the legion:
Nipton was brutalized for being a town of backstabbing degenerates and criminals, they legion doesn't just crucify people for fun.
The legion we see is the military frontier, yes they use slaves of conquered people, but only on these frontiers to power their war effort.
Their treatment of women is barbaric and cruel but also pragmatic, using them as a means to have an infinite supply of new legion troops.
We constantly hear that legion territories are incredibly safe and citizens are free to live, work and grow without heavy taxation.
By comparison NCR struggle to protect their own citizens because they are spread so thin and crippled with corruption, many of their citizens struggle to make a living due to heavy taxation, so poverty, raiders, crime still exist.
The legion is also not against technology, they just only troops who have proven themselves ready and worthy to use it. They want technology to be an addition to strength not a base or "crutch" to rely on. Which is why an Alliance with the Brotherhood makes sense, the Brotherhood want to gatekeep technology, the Legion will only utilize it when they prove worthy.
The current legion is not the long term legion. The entire point of the legion is to change once they have conquered NCR, to shift from the brutal expansion to a nation of people free to live and grow in stability and safety.
Admittedly this would require heirs who understand Caesars will and goal, could be the courier, could be someone else.
Ultimately with humanity trying to scrape together in a wasteland hell hole, the Legion seems like the best choice for humanities future.
They have the safest most stable, corruption free society for its citizens but it requires a brutal and cruel methods to achieve.
Ultimately the Legion is about devoting it's citizens and troops to a higher purpose, than themselves.
Currently neither the NCR or Legion provide a good long term society for humanity, the synthesis of the two that Caesar aims for maybe just be what humanity needs.
Too Bad The Legion Is The Most Fragile Faction In The Game, If Caesar Dies Assuming He Didn't Plan An Heir All His Talks Of Transforming Society Would Never Happen
Wait so it's perfectly ok to crucify a criminal?
"Rape, misogyny and slavery are fine because it's pragmatic" 🤡
You picked up 350 subs while I watched two videos. Nice
The NCR is a beautiful lie while the Legion is an ugly truth. IMO
That is actually more accurate than anything else I have hear about the factions.
Oh really? Is the wholesale slaughter, enslavement, and rape of innocent people "truth" is it?
@@chrisb5005 Yeah, the Legion doesn't lie about it. They're pretty honest about what they do. And why
Well, can't argue with that.
For the next game when Lucias takes over they should get their own power armor
There actually a Legion power armor mod for New Vegas check it out it looks really awesome
The problem with the "means to an end" thing, is that the means never come to an end.
One thing about most fascist regimes we've seen in the real world is that they try to convince their populace that
there's a constant crisis and threat to their nation they need to sacrifice for.
So regardless of if they win the war, I don't think they're going to change and they're going to use that constant state of crisis
to further support the system that keeps people that are currently high positions in power.
Caesar’s Legion isn’t a fascist regime
no fasistic regime has made it to the point of having no threats so itsw a bad comparison, be it the volsheviks to the nazis or the comunists/libdems to franco
Legion: You are free to trade! But you are not free to trade!
See he brings up points that I agree with
But its why I side with house
He is a dictator and good at what he does but he also has libertarian ideals and freedom doesn't reqire democracy it requires freedom as an ideal
He prefers the term… autocrat
Yes Man All The Way Baby!
0:01 Why is Joey talking to me as if he doesn't want to wake up his parents.
interesting perspective ill drop a sub
Thanks mate!
I don't think the ends justify the means; but Caesar does seem to have good intentions, and that's something.
12:45 Okay, look if you are looking for a model of government to avoid pettiness and decadence Rome really is not the one to go for, it was increasingly riddled with corruption at all levels throughout it's existence and decadence pretty much defined it's society. This videos interesting but it's a flawed outlook as it makes a number of assumptions, such as The Legion stopping once it hit the sea and evolving into something new, it's far more likely they'd just pick a new direction and use that considerable logistic skills to move their army that way and 10 years from the end point of New Vegas the Legion will be hitting the holdings of the East Coast Brotherhood, an organisation with a technological advantage which dwarfs the NCR and a ruthlessness to rival the legions.
This video assumes that once the current goal is met the Legion and NCR would assismitale each other to something new and that's just not how people work, the Legion gurnts and officers raised on a diet of glorious propaganda about the honour of combat settling down as a cast 0f protectors... I don't see it, more likely Cearser ends up dead by Laniuses hand and they Legion ranges in another direction till it either hits sea of a force it can't beat. People just don't change patterns of behaviour that neatly, esp when it benefits them, and the bounty of conquest and adrenaline rush of combat benefits the legions armies, they could never stop, only be stopped
@Roach honestly, beyond the cosplay Id argue that Ceaser's Legion don't even bare much resemblance to Rome's Legions, they were disaplined organisations that won through superior technology and tactics, they would have advanced teams building roads infront of the legionaries advance, doesn't really sound much like The Bull.
A better comparison would be Ghengis Khans Mongolian empire, a empire which used terror to gain compliancefrom the city states it dominated but relied on foward momentum to survive, at Khans death and it's division between his sons it collapsed under it's own weight.
Having just listened through Ceaser's speech on my current play through (before shooting the shit out of his camp for fun) his plan is flawed, it is the belief of a man with an abundance of education (and honestly even that's up for debate in Ceaser's case) and no real experience or understanding of how people work, he seeks to create a crucible where the ideologically opposed forces will clash, his legion eventually dominates but is changed by the experience into a noble protector class of the citizenry of a new multi-state empire... Either he's living in a fantasy land or that brain tumour was fucking with his judgment even more than we thought. The idea an army of conquest would simply stop and become sentinels of a civilization their barbarism means they could never fully be a part of, or that his hegemonised identity would simply take through out the NCR is nieve at best. And this is assuming the Legion could win long term which I have doubts about, fire the bulk of New Vegas the Legion is fighting 2nd line conscripts and nearly breaking even, NCR is at the end of its supply lines and overstretched, even wining at the Dam doesn't help the Legion, as the push further west they become the ones over extended and in hostile territory facing more and more of the NCR's technological advantage, out manuvered by motorised and Vertibird born infantry and out gunned by the NCR's heavy armour units the Legion is smashed in a matter of months beyond any hope of repair. Whether the NCR would survive a strike that deep into their territory as a single unified entity is a different question, I think they'd likely shatter in the next couple of years into several different city or regional power blocs.
For me Legion, no plan just the delusional ramblings of a mad man with a brain turmor. House, depends if you trust the dirty robot fucker with the keys to the kingdom and I don't trust any self-confessed autocrat which leaves NCR or Independent and I'm not sure on that one which is why I've been hedging my bets on the current playthrough and have gone bounty hunting instead, I'm leaning to independent as NCRs imperialist goals need curbing but it also creates a buffer state between the Legion and NCR which as the Legion eventually implodes will shield the last unified human society from the worst of the fallout (mainly figurative, possibly literal)
@@maddlarkin This isn't something unheard of, you have a lot of examples in our own history. All the tribal armies that invaded and conquered China were assimilated into Chinese culture. This happened with the Visigoths, the Franks the Turks and so on.
Once a raiding nomad army settles they adopt the culture and religion of their surroundings, they also lose what gave them their edge and adopt all the weaknesses of the empires/kingdoms they conquered.
I think if the legion conquered the ncr they wouldn't merge into something better but something worse.
They would lose their ferocious army and adopt all of the weaknesses and problems of the Ncr. All of these would be doubled due the larger territory they would occupy.
I like the legion because they are fuckin metal in game not because they have good philosophy lol.
@@maddlarkin I find that I like independent the most so long as you put all the work in to really stabilize it (especially upgrading the securitrons). If you half-ass the preparations, people get totally screwed over big time
@@NeoCreo1 I have to admit, while I usually go NCR, I'm leaning to a Independent Vegas, fully secured of course. Even makes sense if your an NCR loyalist, a buffer state will check the legions spread and a defeat here would curb the NCR's colonialist tendencies allowing them to focus on internal issues and development rather than the next town to annex
@@maddlarkin In fact, you can use those exact arguments to convince General Oliver to stand down at the end of the game while going independent
4:33 Lanius is there just vibing next to an NCR farmer lmao
AVE TRUE TO CAESAR!
These fallout related videos are great, how about one discussing a faction from one of the other fallout games?
Sure thing, just did one on the Enclave if you like!