Winning Formula: Brass + Die + Chamber
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มี.ค. 2024
- Full Story: ultimatereloader.com/3n57
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I recently pushed the limits of .308 Winchester using Alpha Munitions OCD brass. Details of the brass, reloading process, and the rifle’s chamber all have to come together perfectly for safe, proper firing. Here’s how it works!
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The following Ultimate Reloader partners are featured in this video:
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- BAT Machine
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There are people who drive cars and then there are people who race cars. Drivers just want to get where they are going safely. Racers want to push to the edge of safety, to find where the limits are. Learning about the limits of safe operation is important and necessary because it identifies exactly where the dangers are and how to avoid them. We need these important specific details. Without that knowledge we are operating in the dark. Great video UR, thank you.
Happy Easter everyone
been loading for 30 plus years and learn something every time !
Always something to learn!
FINALLY - someone is actually talking about oversized chambers when it comes to "clickers". I am so tired of people regurgitating that recent saami chambers (6CM, 6.5CM, 6.5PRC, 300PRC, etc.) are "spec'd wrong" at the .200 line. By the way, these "bad spec reamers" have the same clearance (or more) at the .200 line as longstanding cartridges we have all shot for decades without "clickers". So rather than ream your chamber (via Alex Wheeler specs @ .200 line) to accommodate your sizing die and excessive brass growth.......you should probably try a different sizing die........assuming that your chamber is correct. However, I have chambered a large number of barrels and never had a "clicker" problem reported from users using a variety of sizing dies..........something tells me there are far more oversized chambers than out of spec dies. If your brass grows larger than the dimension on your verified reamer print at the .200 line.......your chamber is over-sized.......PERIOD. Just make sure you have an accurate way to measure that dimension because it is on a taper and tenths matter. Eyeballing with a set of chinese calipers is not good enough.
An "oversize" chamber will not cause clicking - a chamber that is too tight for the sizing die will cause the click. I have 4 dies for the ppc and a reamer from a well known maker. I will take a chamber that is fat at the back vs too tight any day.
I had clicking from 3 different barrels in all of the dies, Harrells, JLC, redding small base, micron, and the only thing that relieved it was opening up the back end of the chamber and measuring with a gauge pin. Multiple high level shooters at my club - hall of fame shooters, have had issues like this and solved the issue by getting a progressively tighter sizing die at the base. Ring dies, which size the base of the case MORE help avoid the click. Undersize, as it relates to the .200 line, chambers are the issue that causes the click.
Redding makes a small base die, I believe it was for AR platforms initially, but it has solved many ppc clicking problems for a lot of shooters.
Harrell's sizing dies are available in .0005 tighter increments to try to mitigate this problem for a chamber that is too tight for the die. This is with lapua brass, custom actions, and nearly any charge from mild to hot.
You mean how many undersize chambers from worn out reamers? An oversize chamber won’t cause a click, but an undersize one will. The brass has to be larger than the chamber to click.
It is also an issue on the newer cartridges as they are very straight walled, a couple thou more taper base to shoulder would prob help clear up any issues as well. Lot of people doing up wildcats figured that out years ago.
205 and CCI 400 not much difference should stepped up to CCI 450s
I always figured it was an issue with the Hornady dies. Other brand sizing dies are known to fix the issue in PRCs
@@mikes5918 In my experience it is not an undersized chamber issue. It is most likely a combination of manufacturing tolerance stacking.......chambers that are oversized from misaligned reamer holding (or barrel holding)......and sizing dies that are on the tight but acceptable range per manufacture and industry standards.
Next time you get a "clicker" compare your fired brass to the reamer print.......or the verified reamer dimension @.200 from a metrology lab (preferred but rare for the little guy to get his reamers cert'd). If the brass measures larger........your chamber is oversize PERIOD and your typical sizer die is not going to take it back down easily......your "small base", "semi-auto", "AR" type sizers might if they get down that close to the case web area or you can go the custom sizer route and compensate.
Do the guys who run an AW reamer by hand to "open the back of the chamber" in return still have clickers at a later time (number of reloads). Seems to me as the case grows you are repeating the same cycle. Or does the case grow enough that a shelf grade sizer die can now size it back down enough to allow the appropriate expansion and contraction?
I really appreciate the logic and details in your presentation.
March 31, 2024
I love it when you guys explore these new products in reloading and concepts
Ultimately, if the back of the chamber is a little bigger it is better than smaller...clicking comes from a "tight" chamber and a sizing die that isn't sizing the web area enough. Harrell's, a custom die and other shooting accessory maker, has a range of dies to help correct this issue. Each die sizes the .200 line a little more in .0005 increments to help avoid the click. I have spent a lot of time and cash on figuring this out, and if you don't have the right die for your chamber it will click
I ran into an out of spec chamber once. The primers didn't indicate over pressuring, the loads were starting loads, but when resizing the brass it constantly got stuck cases and it felt like the press was going to break. A new barrel with a proper chamber got it all fixed up.
Thank you for the educational information. You cover subjects others don't and do it well. Love to have the brass , it's really strong.
Definitely learning about our sport as a result of your efforts.
One thing to keep in mind if you're new to reloading is that some things like fire formed brass and sizing brass with very little clearance in the chamber especially with regard to head spacing (shoulder to case head) is different between bolt action rifles and semi-auto long guns. Cartridges that are tight fitting in the chamber are fine in bolt guns but will not be reliable in semi-auto firearms and may even create dangerous situations.
Not necessarily true. Full length size-always-but a 2 thou bump is plenty for reliability with most chambers and most cartridges. I run several, even oddballs, and that provides reliability and accuracy-provided you don't interchange brass and properly setup your ramps/adjust feed lips you'll be good with bolt gun practices. Just use gas gun pressure.
Too tight in a bolt rifle can be dangerous as all get out .
Do not be fooled
Clickers sound like something you would eat at a movie theater… 😁
Great video. Would love to hear more about clickers in sammi spec 6.5 prc and the aw2 chamber.
I rely on your info to get peak performance and stay in the know. You always stress safety which is utmost importance. Thanks for all you do for the shooting sports....
Thank you for the feedback, and thanks for watching!!!
I think its really cool that the .308 is always the default graphic for a generic rifle cartridge.
Thanks for your presentation. A .308 winter load blew out a primer one summer, which was disconcerting, so the Alpha Munitions brass may provide some peace of mind. I'm not so interested in hot-rodding (for sake of barrel life), but the safety factor would be well worth it.
great information here Gavin ... thanks
I always like watching your videos always very informative.
Gavin I absolutely love your videos, especially around the topic of reloading and performance. I tend to load to the higher node and push pressures a little in my rifles. The first pressure signs I get are flattening primers and a little swipe, usually nearly undetectable. Some people think I should go down to the lower node but I've never had any problems with brass and I usually get 15 to 20 firings out of each piece, And I find a higher pressure node gives me lower ES and SD using lapua and Hornady brass. I anneal between every firing and inspect every piece of brass through the reloading process.
I think it's also important to use a borescope to make sure the carbon ring is kept in check to keep pressures acceptably low/consistent.
Thanks!
Good point about checking for carbon ring!
Great job Gavin. Very cool the direction you’re going!
Jesus is King -Easter, happy
I have never had a catastrophic reloading failure, but I always kept it simple and safe. For one thing, I always purchased powder in different sized cans. Red Dot, huge cans. 231 (most pistol for me) mid size. Odd stuff in one pound. Always use a high intensity light to check powder level before placing the bullet. Examine the brass after polishing. And I am a savage; could easily load 100 rounds in 8 minutes on my Grabber and 800 rounds per hour on my 550B.
at 2:22 thanks for clearing the clicker definition early; as the photo for the video shows a micrometer in hand, and... from mechanical engineering (car mechanics, machining), a 'clicker' on a mic is the ratchet on the smaller knob of the barrel, for failsafe torque application of the movable jaw onto a measured object, which ensures amateurs get the same reading, even if not knowing how tight to grip the work.
Sounds like a redemption,I liked. Good job
You should do another press shoot out but with turret presses! See how a Redding t7 holds up with something like the area 419 zero press etc etc.
Had a similar issue, no clicker and bolt worked great, MPA 6.5 with Curtis action. Lapua brass at 6 firings. My cases didn't fit the Wilson trimmer gauge the same, shoulder didn't come to end. Wilson case checker was fine, I have a Sherdon cut away case checker and brass stopped 1/4" from bottom. Measured case was at max saami. Got an EC base sizing die, worked good on Hornady brass but Lapua showed a slight ring almost half was up case. My sizer is a LE Wilsom with SAC bushing.... only bushing ill buy now... 2 to3k shoulder bump, tried to go to 5 and had overcam, still same thing. Switch sizer to SAC and case dropped in case checker, tight but fit, LE Wilson case holder for trimmer worked after that. My Alpha brass has 3 firing on it , never had any isses. Hornady brass was fine also, other than it grows a lot every firing. Never had issue with firing or groups but sizing die change made a difference, I might be just being pickey but it was always on my mine as I shot. Great Video
Never in my born days did I ever expect to be bored in a reloading video.
But, I see a reason.
I'm a reloader and have been for fifty-one years. I've reloaded for handguns, rifles - including converting one case configuration into another configuration, and shotguns. (Shotgun reloading was very basic and seldom.) My goal is to load safe, useful and reliable ammunition for general use.
This gentleman is seemingly dedicated (at least in this video) to long range (which is a relative term) bench rest competitive shooting. Not really my ideal or goal. It's too intricate in that sense and I am really amazed.
Just for the record, I've never heard the term 'clickers' I almost think it may have signified a round that failed to fire when the primer was activated. Firearm went "click" and nothing happened. Hmmm.
Sounds like a sales pitch for some dies
So many experts in here! 😂
Hey Gavin, what is the barrel length of that 308 you overloaded?
Do you plan to keep running that brass hot to see how far it will go?
That would be interesting… just take 3rds and run them till they’re done.
The fella from Primal Rights has tested that brass to like 22 firings… but not so darn hot.
Cheers!
How do you know? That you measuring devises are accurate l Got mine certified by a laboratory. $.
You must have special 308 cases that use small rifle primers. All my 308 cases are large rifle. Good info in the video.
You can get small rifle primer brass from a few different companies now like starline and alpha munitions like he mentioned. It’s not by any means standard but is definitely becoming more common.
Lets talk about the action, including firing pin size. A factory action will pierce primers way before this level of pressure
There’s another critical factor here- this rifle has a SAAMI min chamber Re: headspace - this can affect primer piercing! Excessive headspace can correlate to pierced primers in some cases.
@Ultimatereloader Gavin this should be another podcast unto itself. I have a handfull of really nice "Custom builds" and some factory actions with cut rifled barrels and load development is not the same between the two.
Is there is essence a general clearance measurement between cartridge and chamber 200 line values to which one should establish to avoid clickers? Say one mics their particular brass 200 line and then designs a reamer for the chamber 200 line value. Should the reamer be cut .001, .005, or larger at the 200 line to prevent clickers? Perhaps the flip side of that question is, what would be the maximum value of the reamer at the 200 line to avoid clickers and also mitigate excessive web/primer pocket expansion?
Try that with 130 tipped tsx and 3006.
I wonder how fast it'd go
Watched Erik on a video the other day speaking about head space and shoulder bump. If i understood him he stated that a .002 shoulder bump puts your case below SAMMI minium spec. Therefore in his opinion we should not be bumping our case shoulders. Did I miss read Erik or what? What is your opinion, Please!
In the 40+ years of reloading and shooting, the FINAL RESULT I’m interested in is a one hole 10 shot group. The definition of that is repeatable accuracy! I’ve never “blown up” a modern bolt action receiver as it is almost physically impossible to do so unless you load 91 grains of W296 into your .338 Lapua. This conversation is completely moot to most reloaders as most of us still hit the damn target with off the shelf dies and components. The fastest consistent load I have ever run was a load in a Winchester Classic Sharpshooter chambered in .308 pushing a 175 gr Sierra HPBT at 2950fps. Mind you the brass was no longer viable after shooting it because of primer pocket issues but it can be done!
Have multiple factory chambers same cartridge. Load shoulders 2 / 4 off chamber. Clicker testing. Loadem repeat test on handel + 5. Consistently to short of book.OG tools arnt worth crp.what do you measure OG with. Have two of those rifles holes in one att short range. Plauged with doubts.what to measure that chamber with?
Gavin I have dies that I sent the brass to one die maker Harrells and I still have problems with not sizing the web enough unless I bump back .008 . This is not acceptable. Sent reamer print to Widden ,talked to them on the phone they said their standard die would work just fine on 6 BRA . This die does nothing and is unable for my chamber . Two sets that are paper weight's.
Advanced reloading:
Use a micrometer that measures to the .0001
New brass dimension at the .200 line
Fire formed dimension with no extraction problem, at the .200 line
Formed brass dimension where you get a Clicker or increased bolt lift, at the .200 line
*Resized brass dimension at the .200 line,
This is the start of your being informed on exactly what you are working with.
Hey Gavin have you ever had issues with the 6bra alpha brass? It seems like the headspace on it is .010 shorter than most average reamers
According to Alex Wheeler(inventor of the BRA) the BRA headspace should be a BR go gauge minus .004”. There are two way smiths are head-spacing. The non wheeler method results in a chamber .010” longer which is what you have.
@tomdanielson5717 I hear ya but that wouldn't explain how my chamber will close on my bra go gauge but then a standard br go gauge it won't
I have a question for you. I have a 6.5 creedmor using hot, but not over pressure loads. Using lower quality brass, and after the four to five reloads, using the same die and head space, around 0.002-0.003. The base's of my resized cases are too tight to chamber smoothly in my chamber. Using a RCBS for, what is causing this?
It's most likely one of the issues outlined in this video- brass quality, chamber specs, reloading die specs!
Is it best to use the same reamer for your chamber and die?
Based on what he said about 6 minutes in, no. After you resize there's some spring back so the die would need to have smaller dimensions
There are reamer sets that will cut a die and rough cut the chamber with one reamer and then followed up with a finish reamer for the final cut for the chamber.
Help bullet key chain
I shoot 6.5 creedmoor I load about 1 gr above the starting suggestion how many times can I reload my cases before I have to replace them I also trimmed them every second time of reloading them Thankyou
Look for signs of case head separation, cracks, and proper primer retention and pull out of service accordingly!
Thankyou always enjoy your videos
So.. SAAMI doesn’t control either the lock stiffness of the firearm or the brass hardness profile of the case. Whether or not you experience a “clicker” depends on the lot of: brass, powder, bullet (& construction) as well as the state of barrel cleanliness and whether you have crimped the bullet in the case. Completely avoiding a “clicker” over hundreds of rounds might be impossible unless your loads are considerably below listed max.
Crimping has nothing to do with clickers. If you have correct brass, rifle chamber, and die dimensions, you can avoid clickers without the need to load below max.
So, you’re saying crimping doesn’t influence peak pressure? REALLY?
@@jeffsiewert1258 There are two types of factors- significant, and insignificant. Crimping would fall into the second category here. It's important to focus on the KEY factors here- brass strength, chamber dimensions, resizer dimensions. Recall from the video- we didn't have clickers even at 103,000 psi BECAUSE we had those three factors in check. Make sense?
Nope. Worked frequently with brass cases as a ballistics engineer for over 40 years. In my experience, peak pressures north of 70kPSI cause the brass to yield, resulting in a residual stress between the case base & bolt face, which is the root cause of your so called “clickers”. Reducing the pre-firing clearances between the case & chamber certainly helps reduce residual stress, but can’t completely eliminate it, especially when pressure gets really high. I’d like to see your numbers with & without crimp to see if actually is “negligible”, as you claim.
@@jeffsiewert1258 Did you test Alpha Munitions OCD brass?
SAAMI Don't tell me what to do, if i want a .50BMG cartridge in my 10mm magnum, then so be it.. 😂😂
300 WSM would be interesting in that rifle. Bore it out please
This is 277 Fury pressure without the steel case, why would the military not use this?
Imma go find some 208s to take a hit off of 33 grains of 5744 at 2.4k fps. I mean the bible says its safe, although i thought 5744 too fast for that application. Varget is a strange creature, but not elusive enough to weasel its way out of my stash. Still stand by my statement on the last video tho.
"Shell casing" is 1980s TV crime drama vernacular. Cartridge case is the correct term.
🧐🤔😀👍‼️
Excellent video. My forked tongue with three prongs is three dimensionally challenged, yes, no, maybe true as the friendship with our spirit winds I'm thumbing my nose wax without the fatty Berger's and a dash of molybdenum disulfide respectfully. ✌🏻👶🏻🚬
I like your videos but this one didn't work for me. I'm not a PRC shooter I'm a hunter . You keep saying don't do this yet you keep showing us what you did . It doesn't make sense to me.
Correct, he is showing you what “wrong” looks like. Thats a pretty standard practice of teaching. Also PRC is not a style of shooting. It’s an acronym for the name of a cartridge.
@@HendoSam He clearly meant PRS
There are a lot of viewers that like the technical aspect and gaining the knowledge of the subject as presented. I don't have the money to afford the equipment Gavin has and uses. I do have the skills to build rifles at the level Gavin does whether hunting rifle or competitive rifle. I build both at the same level, therefore my loading techniques are the same for both. Why would I not want my hunting rifles to shoot bug holes? There is a lot to be learned here even if your "just" a "hunter".
@@HendoSamI need to disagree with your comment regarding "wrong, is a pretty standard of teaching". I was 31 years in the classroom and lab and I can most assuredly say, teaching "wrong" is not a tool for the classroom or lab. I will sign off with this signage "WET PAINT DON'T TOUCH" !
Don't watch it. Who are you to decide what others might find extremely interesting.
Gotta feel that Gavin is going in a very irresponsible direction with the two recent videos. Clearly, this encourages people to ingore safety standards (whether they be SAAMI or CIP) and the result is that someone, somewhere , will get badly hurt.
Such a disappointment from an otherwise excellent content creator
You don't have to copy everything you see! It's purely for educational purposes. Nobody forced you to watch if it upsets you.
Was having the same conversation with Melvin Forbes 24 years ago. Truth is freedom! Custom chambers, true specs are key
Stupid hurts. Don't be stupid, don't get hurt. If you can't understand that drastically exceeding recommended pressure is inadvisable, you'll get to meet Darwin. People drive faster than their tires are rated for all the time. Go freak out about that first.
Hey Gavin could you do a high pressure video on one of the ancient cartridges like 30-06 or 6,5x55 45-70 9,3x62 that are loaded to very mild pressures from the factory to see how big the gains are on those.
6.5x55 is one of my absolute favourite rounds.
You might want to actually look at the specs for those because the 30-06 isn't an ancient low pressure cartridge. 45-70 has been hot rodded up to near .458 win mag already. 6.5x55 is very popular and runs at "modern" pressure very frequently. 9.3x62 is just a .366-06, and can run the same pressure as 30-06.