Why Serious Long Range Shooter Only Use This Die
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2023
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In this video we look at the benefits of using a inline type seating die. - Inline dies - bit.ly/47cFXo2
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The amount of hate on the comments is hilarious. guys if you like your dies, then continue to use them. Of course other dies can produce great results and if you are happy with the performance then no worries. BUT if you arent happy with the results, the Wilson inline seater dies is extremely prevalent in the LR community and woth looking at. In BR it is the rarity to find someone that isn't using LE Wilson dies. I dont make cool videos but im willing to bet that when lots of people that spend crazy amounts of money, to shoot really tiny groups, all buy the same thing.... there's prob something to it. Personally i work my brass in stages, and its nice to be able to seat it on the same bench as I'm dropping powder without running back and forth to my press. By the time i seat it and drop in box the next charge is just waiting on me.
Also, its true that you aren't supposed to drop the bullet through the stem hole. BUT it looks dang cool and everyone here that has those dies has done it at least once. You know you have,
YEP..I have.And still do depending on my mood and bullet.The Cutting Edge 425 grain Lazers wont fit thru the hole because of Seal band....LOL
Is not hate is reason....think!
@@leandrodelgiudice i thought about it again. Still standing by my first comment. Stating contrary opinions just to be contrary or petty references to "the instruction manual" is pretty silly. had nothing to do with spreading reason. Just douche baggery as only the internet can provide on a consistent basis :-)
Unless you neck turn to ensure concentricity, you'll never eliminate runout regardless of dies used
@sb13471 true that. Although runout is less of a concern then consistent neck tension. But turning the neck helps that also.
LE Wilsons YT video on how to use the die states: "Never drop bullet down through the top of the die. This can and will eventually damage the finish of the bore and/or the seating stem."
from the LE Wilson seating die user manual:
Step 4: Proper technique to insert rounds
Always set case head on base with bullet in place on top of prepared case.
Then slide die over the top of the round resting it on the base.
The seating cap may or may not raise up at this point.
it does, but damn its cool to watch. invariably you do it just for funs sake ! lol
RTFM 🤣
@@chipsterb4946 hahahahah. manuals are for sissies
I had the same question.
I’ve been using L.E. Wilson products for many years. K&M make a great arbor press too. Love them.
I love the Bullet Seater with Micrometer Adjustment but I strongly recommend using the provided bullet seater base that they provide.
Good vid sir. Thanks.
Piet, I am usually with you on your tips and tricks. This one, not so much. Lots and lots of the top shooters have come out and said they have found no discernible difference in accuracy based on concentricity. I have done all of my own testing as well, because I feel we owe it to ourselves to test everything we can. I currently shoot a bunch of different calibers into 2’s and 3’s, including Dasher, using a cheap Frankford Arsenal universal seating die. Wanted to see if I could up my consistency and get into 1’s and 2’s so I purchased an in-line with the seating force gauge and saw no difference other than spending more time at the bench. If you saw a difference, good for you and thank you for sharing. But I tend to think that we have hit a plateau and quite a few of the things we saw as important just a couple years ago, are turning out not to be.
The bullet runout is generally created before the bullet seating process, i.e., the case/neck sizing process.
Hi Pete.. Love your content! Don't know if you are aware of this, but both the Forster Bench Rest Ultra Micrometer Seater Die and the Redding Competition Seater Die has a build in sleeve to precisely guide and align the bullet to the seating stem which is precision ground to exactly match the bullet diameter... FYI, I have the LE Wilson and Redding Die and can honestly say that I haven’t found an advantage of the one over the other in accuracy or precision, except for faster reloading with the Redding.
Great vid. Would have loved to see group comparisons using ammo loaded with the 2 different dies!
Agreed, if the difference is not shown then the video is incomplete, Pete. Over all you have great content, thanks.
Agreed we need to see the results I don't believe it makes that much of a difference I need to see results
I have both the L.E. Wilson Stainless Steel Chamber Type Micrometre Seater Die and the Redding Competition Seater Die.
Absolute zero difference in groups... Both shoot one hole groups at 100m, and hit steel at 1km. Only difference is, I get to reload faster with the redding die.
Great video!
Wilson is top notch for very reasonable too. A small family owned business that concentrates on mainly dies. My groups shrank as well and once it’s adjusted I’ve never had to change it ever. Also you for got to mention all the different seating stems available for different bullet profiles it all adds up in the final product. Cheers
Piet, I was using the same Forster micrometer seating die. Had pretty good results. When I got the Wilson Micrometer inline seating die I got GREAT results! As you mentioned, I seated them all long, then took the K&M arbor press and wilson die to the range and did a seating depth test on the fly. Thanks for the video!
I have not found a difference in accuracy between LE Wilson and Forester Bench Rest seating dies. Finding the right harmonic balance between seating depth and any specific barrel appears to make the biggest difference. There is definitely a real advantage to in line seating dies when compared to regular seating dies, especially in rounds with shorter necks. Great video as always!
I use a forster co-ax and the forster seating and fl sizing dies. I have a maximum of 0.002" runout and an average of 0.0005" to 0.001" for neck and bullet runout. I'll take it for the level of precision im after.
I have chased the numbers game for years I use my K&M with force gauge to play with neck tension. Depending on the press you are using and the die you will get better runout with an inline press.
I really like it when I go to the range and perform seating depth tests. Seat them long and seat them and test them. Tried the power test but with wind it throws the scale off.
Great tool to have.
I do not drop the bullet through the top.
I run an automated progressive press single cycle because I use V4’s to drop powder, with a whidden micrometer seating die that seats the bullets long. Then final seat to length with the LE Wilson die.
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RCBS matchmaster seating dies do a good job of maintaining concentricity on a standard press.
Absolutely. I have 4 or 5 sets of them. Love matchmaster dies.
Lekka video and well timed! Thanks bru!
Concentricity doesn't significantly effect accuracy-even errors of 5thou don't significantly contribute to errors (largest I've ever seen anyone generate). In lines have other advantages that account for the difference.
What are the other advantages?
@@brandondyzel130 Basically build quality and more sturdy construction. Everything can be more consistent. Concentricity, especially with modern long bullets, just doesn't matter. The difference in deformation from a cockeyed bullet vs straight (as it impacts the lands) is pretty minimal and there's no chance of chatter heading down the bore when do much of it is in contact with said bid. That makes this make physical sense which is important, it's not just an incomplete set of data from one guy with a great rifle bearing it out. There might have been a time where it mattered but not now.
Do you think an ultra high-quality non-in-line were therefore be just as good?
@@rvoykin Totally. There's guys winning f class matches on normal presses. It just requires more care.
Concentricity itself doesn't make a huge impact but the things that cause a difference in concentricity absolutely do. IE; uniform neck tension. In line dies are used widely by benchrest and f class shooters for this reason. This is also why f class shooters neck turn. With that said, modern micrometer seating dies from companies like Whidden, SAC, or Harrell's will all straighten the bullet before it has a chance to press in removing this issue. This is why shooters like F Class John or Erik Cortina can run a progressive press and still achieve excellent concentricity. But there is precautions taken like neck turning for uniformity and using a second mandrel die for neck tension uniformity. Where inline or arbor dies offer an advantage is using electronic arbor presses to measure seating force to identify brass that is either too hard or too soft, essentially brass with wildly different seating force will indicate a severe difference in neck tension which will open your SD up like nobodies bidness.
I love to use the Wilson inline Seater Dies, easy to use and the results i ger from them are Top Notch. Tried a few Seatings Dies with Spring Loaded Sleeves, i couldn´t get consistent loads with any of them.
In most endeavors at high skill levels, there are two advantages; physical and psychological. If two given physical methods produce identical results, whichever gives the practitioner the psychological advantage is the better one to use. Whether we're talking about seating bullets and shooting or fishing similar baits.
Never, ever, discount the value of the psychological advantage.
I love Wilson tools and have used them for over 30 years but this is not one I myself need my forester works just fine I am not a competitor and I do not follow the latest greatest trends but I do load really fine Ammo one at a time. To make this case you need the same gun ammo and bullets at the same distance something past 300 yards and show that the inline shoots better groups...At some point we as shooters have to say are we reinventing the wheel here take the extra 250 to 300 bucks you would spend on the inline and Arbour press and buy more primers and powder and bullets... My two cents
With the forester seating die which is the one with the micrometer I've measured the concentricity since I spent the money for a concentricity gauge and the overwhelming majority of reloads are have less than 4 thou deviation in concentricity and if concentricity is a concern we can always pull the projectile and reseat it.
Those Forrester dies are capable of the exact same concentricity as the inline dies are. This is easily quantified by checking them on a concentricity gauge. Proper setup for the Forrester dies in the press is needed to achieve this.
There the same if you set the forester up wright, the sleeve encapsulates before the bullet starts to seat,I use both , this vid is a little misleading, but still educational, 👍
You don't drop the bullet into the top of the inline die. Even the instructions say don't do this.
I use my zero press and rcbs matchmaster dies. Perfect concentricity cause I don't check it.
Hahahaha
I made it a habit to seat the bullet and turn it about 180 degrees in the shellholder and seat it again to see if it isn’t concentric. It alway is spot on on my concentricity tool (< 0.001). I use Redding competition. However I do like the idea that you can take this to the range and do a seating depth test on the fly
I think the biggest advantage of the online seating die is that you can seat short and finish seating at match location. No bonding and you can tune for barrel erosion.
according to wilson instructions, place the bullet on the case and then into the die?
Dint know thay made blanks, reamer idea sounds like best option you can have.
Impact Pete got all the flash gear
I did extensive testing in F class between Wilson die and Forster bench rest seating die and found no difference in concentricity or accuracy in normal loading. Having said this, I prefer Wilson myself however Forster gets used fairly often as well, depending on the calibre and type of projectiles used. Small tip, a bench drill and its pedestal plate does the same job as a dedicated arbor press, plus it helps with trimming and many other jobs around the reloading room
The Wilson is much more consistent in seat depth and that is it's only advantage.
my redding seater die produces less than 1000th of run out. even the forester seating die you show works well.
I think both brands you mentioned have an internal design that allows for self-centering of the bullet and makes great ammo.
Just realize that 1000th is .001" - quite a bit really.
I thought Erik Cortina did research on this on bullet run out after seating and it showed the bullet stabilized no differently based on severity of bullet being off-center/greater run out.?.?.?.
have you got a link for the die sets and presses please.
Not quite 100% factual... I have ram press dies that work perfect.... 1 thou runout max. There is ways to improve concentricity.... Upto 4 thou runout makes no diffence in accuracy...
It's all opinion.
So if I don't buy these dies I'll never be a serious long range shooter!?!?
Piet, skiet so 10 rondtes van albei en kyk of die ES/SD regtig verskil? Sal n nice video wees
Who makes your gun wall boards? Did they come in black?
Nice thing about inline setup is the ability to moniter neck interference pressure
ive had this talk with a couple people. using a small arbor press i can easily tell a difference in seating pressure. dont even need the gauge. then i mark those rounds as spotter only rounds and move on. Using a full press you have so much leverage that its not noticeable.
No SAC Infinity Die to compare to the Wilson?
According to LE Wilson they do not recommend slide the bullet from the top I don’t remember the reason. Your thought on this?
Where do I get that shirt that’s great
You REALY want a rubber mat on your reloading room when you use a inline seating die like the Wilson. I dropped my seating stem on the floor. The tolerances are so small than it took an almost invisible dent for the seating stem to just refuse going down. I had to sand it gently in a drill to get it do go down again.
I can use a Lee seater and still shoot .2 groups bullet n barrel, if you don't have a good barrel and bullets it ain't gonna shoot anyway....done been there done that
What reloading trays are those?
I do it like that.But LE Wilson says DO NOT REMOVE Seating Stem do do it as you show..Read the Directions in the box...LOL
What loading block is that?
I want your T-shirt!
You sir are definitely the difference between a reloader and a handloader.Thank you for the demonstration.
Hi Pieter. I just purchased the L.E.Wilson in line with the K&M arbor press. Watched the instructional video put out from L.E.WILSON on the in line seating die. They recommend not inserting the bullet from the top because it will damage the interior finish. Has this been an issue for you?
Not at all, but interesting take. One would think that copper is softer than stainless. Ill reach out to them and see whats up.
@@IMPACTSHOOTING Thanks for the quick response. It's because of your video that I purchased these items. I'm always in search of perfection with my reloading techniques and eliminating all variables. I guess my O.C.D. runs deep, lol. Can you pass on what L.E.Wilson's response is? Thank you Pieter for all the informative videos you have posted.
When using the inline die, have you ever measured all of your seating depths and seen what kind of variance you get?
With the Wilson, after sorting bullets by ogive, it is consistent to less than .001'. If you do not sort your bullets, the variance will be more around .001' to .002'.
The link doesn’t have 6 GT I’m assuming I could use 6 BR or something else?
Pete, how do you adjust bulle length with this center die, and seating depth?
It has its own micrometer :-)
Very cool! But how do you control seating depth? Looks like it’s fixed (or can you adjust the seating stem that fits on top of the bullet?)
Adjusts with micrometer on top
Has the seating stem, which provides a rough adjustment to match the projectile being used by screwing it in and out. You can then fine-tune it with the micrometer by 0.001 or 0.0005 if you have the Sinclair Wilson version.
The LE Wilson has grub screws to hold the settings - good for my 6mmBR, which only has one projectile being used compared to my .308Palma load with two different rifles and four projectiles depending on what is needed or being tested - the Sinclair has springs and detent for holding the settings, which allows for rapidly switching between settings.
That rifle looks like something from the future
Dont keep removing the bullet stem and load the bullet from the top like that you will in time ruin the close fitting and introduce run out. It was not designed to load it that way.
Never drop bullet down through the top of the die. It is recommended by L.E Wilson
Hey wilson reloading!!!.... is this an informercial? if you reload for accuracy , you must check concentricity....and your die didn´t give the exact bullet deep that i want to fit the chamber...👎
Do you know anybody who will make an inline seating die for a 30 Sherman?
Where can we in SA buy those presses?
Multech sells the K&M press which is better, IMO 🙂
Wouldn't using an arbor press without the seating force gauge essentially defeat the purpose of this whole setup for actual serious long range shooters? F-Class John did a video showing how concentricity of seating a bullet really isn't all that big of a deal. Especially as much as people tend to believe, based off of his testing that is. The whole reason for using an arbor press would be so you could see the seating force and then group them together accordingly for down range consistency. Also just another tid bit here, Greg from Primal Rights also has a video showing that just because you have a super consistent loading process and size your brass exactly the same, even if they all have the same inner neck diameter measured with pin gauges, they do not all seat the same. This can be seen with the AMP press. He uses the term neck diameter interference vs neck tension because they don't all have the same tension, even if the diameter is exactly the same.
I started hand loading my own 308 Win cartridges around 1986 for local service rifle NRA target matches (iron sights). I used the RCBS competition die set (PN: 37801). The bullet seating die is micrometer depth controlled with a bullet side feed into a sleeve, case must be raised to initiate contact with the sleeve first. I found this die to work for me well. I recently purchased the RCBS Matchmaster die set for the 30-06 cartridge (PN: 14808). It uses the same bullet seating arrangement but does not need the slight case engagement with bullet feeding sleeve. It has also worked very well for me.
I’m slightly frustrated with the lack of videos that showcase these RCBS bullet seating dies. Maybe it is a cost factor? Have you ever used these RCBS die sets? I like to use my turret press for as many operations as I can.
Does the RCBS die have the adjustable depth on it also? I’m goi g to be loading some nosler and I haven’t loaded anything since probably 1983
Yes. It has a micrometer style thimble knob that has adjustments in 0.001 inch increments. I use 168 grain HPBT Sierra or Hornady bullets and they like the seating stem contact profile. I have no experience with Nosler bullets.
Check out TH-cam video by “Ultimate Reloaded”, search “RCBS Matchmaster” for the bullet seating die, FL seating die included in set.
@@ericabig3471 thank you. It’s got to be cheaper than buying 26-28 nosler. They get expensive
so please give a little advice. I have the die all set up properly, but when i try to seat a bullet it is hard as hell when using the die and the K&M press. The single Mech press will seat it easily, but the wilson die and k&m press wont seat the bullet all the way into the case. I;m using 1 thou tension should I increase to 2?
yes I mandrel before pressing
yeah definitely mandrel first. . Im using the le wilson mandrel die. thats 10/1000ths but spring back happens and i usually see around 15/1000ths end result. also, check where you have the arm located on the press. i found that if it starts to contact too soon the leverage is off. I usually loosen it up on the frame then let it touch the fully seated die. then i press up to about 75% of the stroke and lock it down there. that usually give me contact on the down stroke instead of as it pulling forward.
I cant find a primer to save my life
Interesting claim that it produces better rounds. Im into numbers. Could we see a statistically significance sample (35?) from each die on run out, and also group size(preferably measured in mean radius) Which is an interesting thought, since one of his main sponsors (MDT) regularly demonstrates testing in their videos
None of the die companies are sponsors of the channel. So I literally gain nothing. Just my take on this die 👍🏼
winning in the wind had a video showing that i think. i def remember seeing a runout test on his channel.
What is the press you are using?
Area 419 for the big one where he sizes his brass. Small one for seating is 21st century.
Wich arbor press is that?
21st Century
How do you if it is the length of the bullet
Can you agach it
LEKKE LEKKE
I see a Prometheus your 6 month future.
So you have a multi stage press that cost 1000 or so dollars US…. But you seat the bullet w an inline. That leave decapping and resizing…. w the multistage press…. Decapping doesn’t require “accuracy” so you’re essentially left w a very expensive multistage press that’s only used for generally one precision task….. see where I’m going with this? A really damn good single stage press RCBS, Forrester etc will and is more than enough once you get to this stage of reloading :). Somewhat ironic huh? :).
I do see it, did I mention that I dint even decapp on the Zero. Ive got a dedicated press for decapping in my dirty area
This is essentially the conclusion I came to awhile ago. Good precision only requires a good single stage press, along w an arbor press and inline dies and not a massive overly priced multi stage press. Then again I shoot only for elr and hunting so I don’t need massive amounts of ammo but very very consistent limited quantities. :).
@@category-theory Where multi stage really helps me is because I have SOOOO many guns that I shoot often, so having tool heads always setup is a huge time saver.
Chip n Dales
There comes a point of diminishing returns and at the end of the day, I'm the weakest link in the chain of my process.
My reloading process is the same, every time and I'm getting SD of 4 with 6.5 creedmoor and one ragged hole groups.
If an inline puts yields a significant difference for someone, go for it but it's not a must have.
Test
So I should get rid of my Lee's? 😂😅
No, no, no! The key is a Wilson die cut with the same chamber reamer as your rifle!
Precision shooting can be a bit "snooty"...like Fly Fishing, down-hill skiing, and photography. People...usually guys...want to impress and marginalize others so that they can feel good...superior...to others.
This is all suppose to be fun...so, enjoy what you have, what you can afford. Stop explaining...it's a bad habit used by weak people.
Use what makes sense and ignore the rest.
I've been reloading for over 50 years. I've watched new things come and go. Be content, chase good ideas, have fun.
I have a die i could die for and if my die dies in the future I couldn't want to buy another die out of fear that the new die wont be better than my old die that died! I also use a special dye to dye my die so it doesn't get mixed with other un-dyed dies!
P.S. dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die, dye, die,
Beginner.........??? Pro..............??? LOL, I guess there were no pros before Wilson came out with that die design?? I use Wilson dies, many of them but to simply label everything but Wilson beginner..... LOL!! They are great dies but you CAN get just as good results with the traditional dies!! Come on man??
You must be unfamiliar with how a youtube thumbnail works?
We all just ignoring the little mermaid?
Nothing against L.E. Wilson. They make a great product. But this guy bust's me up with this video. The bullet drops down slowly due to trapped air. Lol. Sorry.
I'm just getting into this I bought a Frankford arsenal micrometer dice at that I get .0005 run out
He doesn't understand the Forster seating die. Think he's a youtuber, not a reloader. It's a video set.
Boomer Alert 😂
The video comes across as advertising and hearsay. To be credible, you need to measure and compare runout for seating methods.
Youre taking youtube way to seriously Sir.
@@IMPACTSHOOTING Sorry, my mistake, I thought you were interested in precision.
@@patheron7812 lol
Like so many others have said, this video is ridiculous. I have wilson seating dies and an arbor press and i also have redding and others and my runout is the same: 0.0001" or less to the point that it's silly to check every 25th round much less every round. This video is pointless.
All my videos cant be great, this one wasnt. Keep in mind your complaining about free content 😌
@@IMPACTSHOOTING fair. I think the outsized reaction is due to the high level of quality for your usual content. That's a complement btw.
not relevant at all, I do use a Forster Benchrest seating die and getting amazing results. Because YOU (the self-proclaim best shooter SIKE) is using this die, doesn't mean the rest is garbage.... again make sure you get opinions of other professional shooters before giving yours buddy. you still got a lot to learn like everyone....
I neck turn all my brass and use a Forster Micrometer seating die and get concentric results of 1 thou average. Works great.
You watched a different video than me apparently, he didn't do as you said he did.
Ya I call BS!! God bless America!
What nonsense. From the point of view of internal ballistics, when fired, the bullet still moves at slightly different angles. Even the amount of carbon deposits at the bullet entrance plays a role in this process. If you have extra money for a top-end reloading tool, of course you will buy it. I use ordinary tools and shoot at half angle in my shooting ranges with minimal variations in speed.
Shooting half moa at 100 yards is nothing. When people want half moa at 1000+ spending an extra $100 is worth it. Go home bubba, youre drunk.
Depending upon the geometry of the bullet, the angle at which the projectile is loaded into the case can have a quite noticeable effect upon shot to shot consistency.
@@AKGuru4774 To shoot such groups at such distances you don’t need expensive equipment, but luck and atmospheric conditions. At 1000 yards, the difference in muzzle velocity of 20 feet per second is 8 inches. Add to everything the mirage and wind at the highest point of the bullet’s trajectory, which you cannot see or hear.