How tough is ObXidian really?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ย. 2022
- The E3D ObXidian is E3D's new flagship nozzle. What does it take to break it?
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The maximal usable temperature for the Revo nozzle could also be caused by the press fit that would loosen as the brass expandsore than the hardened steel
This is the answer, i have seen this in other fields and in this theoretical case first thing you would notice is probably leaking of molten plastic due to the recently created gap by the difference of thermal expansion of the two materials, also you could have backflow or changes in your flowpath because of this, and in the most catastrophic case, with enough temp and pressure you could displace that press fit.
For press fit parts that need to sustain heat when pressing it in you heat it to even higher Temps to unvoid this
Edit: the steel will also soften
Hardened steel loses its temper at high temps as well.
@@Bubu567 You're not wrong but you're missing information. As long as the initial temper is done above whatever temp you expect the part to operate under and the steel is a reasonable choice for the task in the first place it's fine.
Isn't 300C the max temp of the Revo based on the heater/thermistor constraints? I saw a video where a higher temp version was supposed to be released but I'm not seeing it yet. If that is the case and the nozzle is made for the Revo exclusively, than there would be no point in rating at a temperature higher than the equipment is capable. If they have one capable of temperatures of 500C and they still limit the nozzle to 300C, then that might mean more.
Great test rig! That camera view timelapse was incredible!
On another note though - you seem to actively avoid doing videos that you think others might be doing, but please don't underestimate how much we value your view. If in a year I was thinking of swapping to Revo/ObXidian and looked back on YT reviews, I would instantly click on yours first.
I believe it is more of a courtesy thing. He and others like CNC Kitchen an Maker's Muse often create content that work complementary to one-another. Each providing different aspects/takes to the table that together provide significantly more value for printing enthusiasts/curious than if any individual just did everything by themselves. So they largely try to avoid re-threading the same stuff the other might be doing. Even if it has led to a couple cases where none of them ended up dealing with the basics of something...^^;
They put 3D-Printing and its community before personal gains. Which i find commendable.
@@chielvoswijk9482 I wish they'd work more closely together and either just straight up collab on stuff or just release short videos validating what the others have said.
It would be great to have all of them arrive at the same conclusions, that way we can be quite confident that it's true!
@@swedneck shorts commenting the other vids would be great and would also bounce a few viewers between the channels for more reach…
this!
Every time he says Ob-EX-idian, a little part of me dies inside... This is Slic-THREE-R all over again.
Blame the CamelCase. I read it the same way.
its bad….
Yea... Glad I'm not the only one with this thought.
His insisting on pronouncing things weird when there's really no need to do so is getting out of hand... Slic3r should be Slicer and ObXidian should be Obsidian ( _maybe_ Obxidian but definitely not ObExIdian )
@@Duraltia E3D themselves said it should be Obsidian in their blogpost.
It's more cringe to capitalize a letter in the middle of a word.
Just for scale: Because of DLC coatings beeing only a few micrometers thick (normally not thicker than 5 microns) it's pretty hard to get it evenly worn, due to minimum non-parallelism.
Great video, glad you chose to do this instead of a standard review!
Also, as you grind a material, the particulate (called swarf) becomes effectively a lubricant ~AND~ an abrasive at the same time.
It acts like a lubricant because it's tiny particles that behave a bit like ball bearings.
It also acts as an abrasive because it is the same material as the workpiece they came from obviously, so being equally hard as their source, they act as a bit of a polishing compound.
Way better than a standard review. The choice of using alu oxide stone as the abrasive is an extreme test which shows the true wear resistance of this nozzle. I am also a very knowledgeable sharpener and metal enthusiast as I collect knifes. A dlc coating doesn’t mean full abrasion resistance but should show what your test results gave you. This means that E3D nailed their coating! I think one last thing to pull away is that another point of wear that most people see is wear in the heartbreak the thin steel tube of their hotends. This was the main reason I purchased this E3d revo obxidian. As other hotends would have me replacing a just as expensive heartbreak from abrasive materials. I’m hoping that is not the case with the revo as the heat breaks can cost just as much as a revo nozzle. I made the purchase in hopes I spend less overall printing with abrasives. Very well done and glad you took real data to show us just how much abuse the nozzle can take!
It would be interesting to see this test done on a Diamondback nozzle.
Me too. I won't use any other nozzle than a Diamondback, and I've tried them all.
@@rqthree I just got a 0.6mm Diamondback and I love it too. I've been printing some CF-PETG with it, and it prints like a dream.
Diamondback is the best nozzle. I have 600 hours of CF and GF filament on it with no sign of wear.
Diamondback 100% if you don't often change nozzles. Revo if you change nozzles often. I never change nozzles so I always install a Diamondback and never need to worry about it anymore.
excellent video! 👏😎love the testing rig and results!
Holy crap Tom! The effort that went into this video is incredible. Thank you! Keep doing what you're doing. Looking forward to the next one.
The Tom approach is often different, but the results are absolutely promising. You were the reason why I bought the Revo V6 hotend for my Prusa Mk3s. Had a lot of clogging issues in the past. Since changing the hotend, it works like a gem. So I will also give this a shot! Thanks for your work!
Quality work there Tom!! Really liked the close ups, editing, and composition! Great job! I do appreciate the re-test too!
would have been interesting to see you try the Nozzle X with its older coating
I think this is worthwhile enough for a follow up video considering how many people have the Nozzle X.
Agreed
I believe e3d said the nozzlex coating doesn't provide any abrasion resistance, it's just for non stick. In the blog post it said not to use wire brushes on nozzlex or the coating gets damaged
yes pls
@@hassaization Further research is needed. The NozzleX is not sold solely on its non-stick properties and is stated to be fine with abrasive filaments so whether its qualities come from the coating or the nozzle material the test could very well still be relevant.
Would be interesting to see how the heat of a nozzle impacts these results. Could it be that at printing temperatures of 200-250°C hardness drops and wear is accelerated compared to room temperature?
Yeah that was a little surprised to see him only test at room temperature. Admittedly grinding increases the temperature, but nowhere near as much as the heater would.
You are a real engineer. I chuckled when you opened up the webcam to adjust its close focus capability. We need more people like you making actually useful videos.
Very interesting testing methodology and results. Thank you Tom.
I can't help but wonder if the 300° max is due to the dissimilar metals and differences in thermal expansion.
Seems like a good reasoning for it, I think the normal revos also are 300c. And for their target user I think that is plenty of thermal range, A quick poke around the internet and from what I see at least most vendors do not have any of the usual suspects filaments needing much above 270c. Some PC filaments go above 300, but I suspect the biggest market segment is printing PLA, PETG and ABS/ASA.
i can confirm that this nozzles passed 340c vacum degassing test before coating and have 4-5 micron dlc coating.
would be interesting to see the ruby nozzle in that same test and see the differences 🤔
Dude I hope he does
The Diamondback nozzle would have an interesting comparison. I have been using a .4 Diamondback for about 6 months with no issues or wear.
Me too. I won't use any other nozzle.
Thanks for putting the time and effort into doing this video... 😊👍
Thank you so much for spending your time making the video the way you did. Very interesting setup and comparison. Already had a nozzle in preorder. Very exited to receive it at some point
Woah this test rig is basically a 3D scanner, a destructive one too lol. It would be interesting to see more stuff ground down this way. Electronic components for example. Like in the "Open Circuits" book, those guys did everything manually. With this machine it would be so much simpler!
Very cool video, bet that took a lot of work. Glad to see you are able to make us some quality content, we know you had somewhat of a rough time lately and we really appreciate everything, so thanks Thomas!
Great work.loved the Timelapse. I don’t think I have seen one done this way before.
What is your take on the Diamondback? It seems great, but my only concern is the nature of insert-based nozzles. Any long term review/test like this, or even cutaway (if even possible) would be amazing!
Great video (as always) nonetheless.
(Also sorry if this was mentioned mid video, typing as i watch so I’ll remove if so!)
I have been using a .4 diamondback for about six months. Have printed with carbon fiber filament, no issues or wear so far.
I've been using a 0.4mm Diamondback for a year now. I won't use any other nozzle, and I've tried them all.
Nicely done. Awesome stop work animation. I thought we would have seen a tiny bit of jitter but it look like the nozzle returns to the precise spot each time. And you sold me on the nozzles.
I love the direction you took with this; testing in depth something nobody else did. I wish there were more of this kind of analysis - each reviewer taking a specific aspect of the product and test that thoroughly. Albeit, in this case, I think you already took what I feel is the most important aspect of the ObXidian and tested the heck out of it. 😉
You have unintentionally demonstrated that this is a fantastic nozzle. 😊
I think that while this was a fancy attempt, the differences between the test case and real printing are so different this might now accurately show how nozzles wear under a real load. For instance, what if at a certain pressure, the coating lasts longer. What if the filament pressure is being significantly lower than the weights is more than enough to change that? Im just guessing but at least in the video, I think this was a best guess as well (unless I missed something, which is totally possible).
Ultimately I feel the best way to test, as in the most realistic scenario, is to set up an automatic bed solution such as simply using the print head to push off prints, and printing off max volumetric flow rate spiralized circles of the most abrasive, glow in the dark carbon fibre filament you can find. This way the printer is going at the maximum realistic speed, and you get real, fair comparisons.
Steel is a very unique material. It’s one of the only materials with a work/load threshold. Most materials will wear almost linearly with work/load. Weather it be grinding of a nozzle or flexing of a building/bridge. Even if it’s an immeasurable work/load, most materials still wear respectively. Steel, once below a certain threshold, never breaks down in a controlled environment. Once the nozzle was able to distribute the load across a certain surface area, it was getting closer to the threshold where it would no longer wear.
The 300c rating I think is where the nozzle and heatbreak come apart. Mine did after running 285c for a few hundred meters
that Sadge
Really enjoyed watching this video! I love this experiment style form, was really great seeing the different steps and conclusions!
Fantastic video, Tom! I love the level of detail and analysis. I was fortunate to pick up an ObXidian nozzle at ERRF, and look forward to setting up my new Revo Micro with it soon.
Fascinating. The tungsten carbide nozzle I use in my v6 is the main reason I didn't want to move over to Revo. I still think the thermal properties of tungsten carbide are a nice benefit over steel, but the composite design on the ObiXidian along with sufficient abrasion resistance may just make it every bit as good in practice.
Awesome work, mate!
You keep being THE 3D printing masters with CNCKitchen to come to.
I massivley appreciate your work!
fantatsic video. Thank you for all the work you put into it.
Thanks for the detailed durability test. I use a 0.4 Revo/ObXidian as my main driver on a Voron 2.4r2. I am super happy with it. I also have a 0.4 Revo High Flow but don't use it as much. I am happy with the versatily of the ObXidian as my main nozzle. I use it along a 60W Revo heater core and I am getting terrific results with a wide range of materials.
Excellent review.
Thank you.
Love the Hollywood movie starting…”ya that’s me, this is how I got here” lol fantastic!
Excellent work all round! Thanks!
SWEET! I just installed a Revo cr two days ago. I'm really happy with it so far. Good to see they released a hardened nozzle for it. I will likely pick up a 0.6 nozzle immediately as that would be a fantastic catch-all nozzle for use outside my normal brass ones. And with the benefit of the easy nozzle swap.
Great video and nice to see how you built yourself a working tribometer (tribological/friction and wear test bench) out of your old printer. The problems you encountered and the conclusions and interpretations you came up are quite spot on and typical for tribological research.
As you mentioned, the carbon fiber plate didn't work out as an abrasive counterbody at first, due to the fibers being embedded deep in the resin. Additionally the fibers in those plates are usually woven or laid down in the the plate direction, thereby - even when you roughed up the plate - the noozles were still mostly riding parallel to the fibers, rarely contacting the more abrasiv fiber ends. For most abrasive action you would have to test on the thin sides of the plate (which is obviously pretty difficult to set up ;) ).
You were also right about needing equal contact pressure (N/mm² or MPa) for a fair comparison between all test-specimens because the mechanical stress needs to be the same and not the absolut force. The height of the contact pressure determines, if and how much an hard body can pierce into another . You probably had with all 3 nozzles some edge-contact or alignment issues at the start (it's well visible with the brass-nozzle) which induces a stress-spike on those edges accelerating the abrasive wear even more, but you could only notice it with the DLC because it wore comparatively slow and the coating has a nice contrast to its substrate. Also, the sharpening stone loading with wear debris is an issue, because that reduces again contact pressure and abrasiveness.
The Obxidian nozzle and coating might also only be rated to 300 °C because (depending on the DLC-type) the "diamond like"-parts then start to turn more into "graphite-like"-parts, so the coating would loose its hardness over time and abrade more easily.
Keep up the good work!👍
Great video - yet again you bring up an interesting angle
I really want to know how the Olsson ruby would stand up to this test. Just in case you ever revisit this. Thanks Tom!
If it makes you feel better, this is the first I’ve heard of the obxidian nozzle. Thanks for the video 😊
The intro is amazing.
Great work!
Lovely video! Good info, good pacing, good testing, good tone!
Love to see onshape getting some love. Been using it since 2016, learned cad entirely on it.
Wow! Sounds like E3D has revolutionized the coatings industry. They should look to licensing their technology to the tooling industry. Could you imagine a tungsten carbide end mill that lasts a 1000x times longer without wear? Amazing.
Very nice... that is some creative content with enormous value... well done!
Everything about this video is exactly what I love about you 👍
Great idea and video Tom. As an E3D Nozzle X user on 4 of my machines 2).4mm, 2).5mm, I would like to see how Obxidian compares to Nozzle X. I print a lot and I mean a lot of CFPLA, CFPETG, and CFPA with some GITD, UV and Temp reactive. All I see on the Nozzle X is an almost mirror polished tip.
Thanks Thomas ✊
Also forgot about the grit clogging over time. Also a factor in why it slowed down over time. It's often overlooked.
In the case of the coated nozzle, I think the sharpening stone was getting worn smooth, which would greatly reduce the effectiveness in such short passes. But it's fair to say that the real world surface would also get worn smooth and stop doing damage, so I don't really see a problem with taking these results at face value.
Thank you for the great info.
Great video using a different approach than most would do. I have 0.4 & 0.6 on order and believe that I will be pleased.
Such a good video. Thank you.
Great Tom. It may be that, like Grant at 3d Musketeers found with the diamond nozzle, it is the thermal properties of the nozzle that is most important and obxthingy 's advantage may lie as much in that direction as its hardness.
Thanks for the video! thinking of building a voron next year with this system in mind.
a side benefit of a worn out brass nozzle is if you measure an extruded bit of plastic and it's .9mm you can update your slicer and print faster.
Fantastic test! The difference in wear between the brass and the ObXidian is insane. It's been ages since I installed a Volcano Nozzle X (still super happy with it!), but I'm really curious to try the Revo with an ObXidian.
"Brutality Bonus!"
A good demonstration, and following the results to demonstrate a more "standard" usage pattern, which demonstrates the bonuses of the new tip, excellent.
Rarely can first 17s of a video catch my attention so much that I know I'll watch the full of it :D nice one!
I wonder about the filament path where the coating is more than likely thinner than on the direct outside of the nozzle. Inner abrasion of the filament path is the first point of failure not the nozzle tip.
Also heating the nozzle probably would change the results a bit. Thank you for what you do!
I wouldn't expect it to be thinner on the inner path. Plasma-Enhanced Vapour Deposition is really good at getting inside the nooks and crannies compared to the more common Sputter-deposition. Though it is also way more costly and hard to keep behaving uniformly (which led to the year long delay).
Great review.
So the result is quality over quantity.
That was a lot of effort. Much appreceated.
You have a great channel. Looking forward to the next video.
Entertaining and informative. Well done.
Love the scientific approach, thanks Thomas!
Good work my dude
"If you bend the heat break" definitely not recommended 😆 Very interesting video Tom and a great test rig too!
Great and interesting testing tom!
Very thorough analysis!
Love the nozzle wear timelapses!😎
Thomas, thanks for this video. It's certainly demonstrated the toughness of the dlc. It's also given some insight into the usefulness of Z hop with more abarasive filaments. I might start implementing this - but I'm not really in a situation where the Revo ecosystem makes sense (hobbyist, pensioner, retiree) but if I ever win Lotto, well... I mainly print with PLA using 0.4 and 0.6 and bought one of those assortment nozzle sets so at the rate I print X the wear rate on PLA, I reckon that many nozzles will see me out anyway...
Totally enjoy your videos and test setups, sorry you've had such adversity & disruptions recently. Hope to see your videos for at least as long as that nozzle kit lasts me... 😺
It was nice talking to you at ERRF this year!
hey
very good method, but your conclusions and the thoughts you put in it were even better
thanks so much!
Love to see this on a Ruby nozzle, Tungsten carbide, and Diamond!
Thankyou. I figured out the best way to learn a new fixture to a tool is torture test it. Give that warranty a good look through and use it to ur advantage.
Bravo and cudos for addressing an extremely intricate technical issue. My first impression is that these tests do not directly address the wear issue as experienced in actual applications, because they do not directly emulate the printing dynamics. Yet your test results are interesting. Please consider actual print tests. Your standard of work has always been outstanding and excellent, and very creative and done with enthusiasm and insight. My suggestion is to do consider alternate ways of evaluating or re-evaluating this.
On obxidian it makes sense that as soon as the coating is gone, any abrasion resistance goes with it and the base metal will erode at its normal rate. I'd love to see this repeated with a diamondback nozzle. I predict it would leave a substantial groove in the sharpening stone and not much damage to the nozzle.
Amazing setup and video Thomas, much better than any of the printing launch videos :D
Amazing visuals.
Thank you ! It's inspiring 😁
Thank you!
So, with max temp of 300C, can we say good bye to flame-cleaning of a nozzles after a lot of PETG prints? Very curious what the test would be after a couple flame cleaning cycles.
Eeexxellent! thanks for the video!
Those micro camera shots are amazing.
watching the brass nozzle get obliterated is somehow soothing
As usual, i love your videos! Engineers doing engineer things that engineers love. :)
Amazing video! Very ingenious testing method. Thanks for doing such a sacrifice for us hehe :)
Summary : obXidian nozzles will outlast every other nozzle
You want to know how "soon" works? When I was into model railroading a company advertised a very desired steam engine. I followed the ads at the time in the magazines before I was in high school. I think they finally released that model after I graduated. It sold out quickly and was a very popular model. But each month for years they kept running ads saying it would "soon" be released.
Definitely getting some Project Farm vibes on this one. Bravo!
Jesus Christ I screamed so loud by accident when the beginning of this video played. I felt that scrape in my stomach.
Thomas, can you please cover the repeated delays in fulfilling these ObXidian nozzles and maybe help those affected understand the why of it all? We all have committed and invested in a system available to influencers only. Many bought into the ecosystem based on your and Stefan’s influence, as primary examples, the unicorn-level durability of this nozzle is surpassed only by its unicorn-level rareness.
I bought my Revo in early May, I waited a month prior to ObXidian pre-orders being due to ship before upgrading, and I pre-ordered within 22 minutes of the process opening. I am frustrated beyond words.
Please cover this.
an obsidian insert would be a cool NOZZLE-TY
Gotta love these creative intros
Any chance you'd be willing to run a Diamondback nozzle through this test? I'd be super curious to see it.
I switched to the diamondback after my Olsson ruby fell apart. Definitely more happy with the diamondback and it’s better flow characteristics.
@@emey57 I've been using one too and love it, but would be very curious about wear characteristic testing like that. One swipe on a concrete curb is not scientific or repeatable, as they show in promotional videos. BTW, did you have to change temps or retraction distance? I love everything about the Diamondback but the extra stringing, curious what settings others are using. I'm printing on an MK3S+.
@@AdrianLauf I agree with you on wanting a more scientific test done. As for settings I typically use the standard Prusa profiles, or the brand specific material profiles, and fine tune my temperatures with temp tower stringing tests. After that I start looking into retraction settings. Most of my stringing issues are from using old filament that isn’t properly dehydrated. I’m also running dual fans and a duct I haven’t released yet so the added part cooling helps.
@@emey57 What retracts did you set? I'd fiddle with it myself, but I figured I'd ask if there was a successful setting. I'm still getting quite a bit of stringing on brand new filament rolls. Ironically, it improves as it sits in my basement.
@@AdrianLauf with PETG or PLA?
Another reason the stone would slow down on abrasively removing material from an object rubbing across it is the material clogging the pores up making it smoother then it started that's the reason you use water with wet stones or oil with oil stones which helps carry the slury away which is a mix of material being abrasively removed and either water or oil and a small amount of abrasive material/stone will be present as well, you can use stones dry but it leaves material embedded in the stone and the stone will need resurfacing/ flattened to be used properly again
Good vid , Are high flow nozzles coming ?
Cool, what is the price for the obexidian one and the hardened nozzle version? 🤔
learning through destruction! That is my favorite way to learn, by seeing where things fail...
very important question, did you do the test at 250C nozzle temp? normaly metals softer a lot when heated...
Thats why most machines use tungsten inserts (CNC and so)... because tungsten does nearly not soften even at 1000c
Interesting. I wonder how a tungsten carbide nozzle would fair in that test. It would also be interesting to see how a vandium nozzle held up.
You discussed how the nozzles were wearing at an angle and not perfectly perpendicular to the stone. I wonder if that was due to your toolholder rigidity (or lack thereof). The nozzle face may have initially been flat to the stone but when it started to drag across that created a moment causing a deflection and a slight angle between the nozzle face and the stone surface.