Is There Cheap Intimacy In Your Family?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- Is There Cheap Intimacy In Your Family?
In this video, we take a look at the relationships between people who
gaslight and scapegoat others. By using the Karpman Drama Triangle
we explore why toxic family systems engage heavily in scapegoating
others.
Additional notes:
* The roles can switch and switch fast. I'm exploring one variation.
* You could have grown up as the victim or the rescuer too.
* I want people to think more about what happens to their relationships
with the siblings.
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:03 Karpman Drama Triangle
1:56 Karpman Drama Triangle - The Office
2:47 Poor Personal Responsibility
4:04 Karpman Drama Triangle - In the Dysfunctional Family
5:26 Persecutor = Scapegoat "Problem" VS Victim + Rescuer
6:15 Examples of the Family Drama at Hand
10:40 Why is it Cheap Intimacy?
11:55 Takeaways
13:00 Final Thoughts
18:29 Outro
Learn more about Patrick Teahan,
Childhood Trauma Resources and Offerings
➡️ linktr.ee/patrickteahan
⚠️ Disclaimer
My videos are for educational purposes only. Information provided on this channel is not intended to be a substitute for in person professional medical advice. It is not intended to replace the services of a therapist, physician, or other qualified professional, nor does it constitute a therapist-client or physician or quasi-physician relationship.
If you are, or someone you know is in immediate danger, please call a local emergency telephone number or go immediately to the nearest emergency room.
If you are having emotional distress, please utilize 911 or the National Suicide Hotline
1-800-273-8255
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I was the golden child and it did not feel like being a “winner”. I was loved as long as I played the part. As an adult when I tried to speak about the abuse, I instantly became the villain. Love towards a golden child is cheap and inauthentic.
You describe the exact scenario that I'm living, except my sister and I switched in adulthood. She was the scapegoat and deemed rebellious in childhood. I was the golden child. Now she is the golden child and I am the rebel/ scapegoat as I've been pushing back at the unhealthy family system as I'm seeking wholeness. The cheapness of the relationship was immediately apparent after I started challenging the narrative. Quite frankly though, I would trade to be the Golden child again for anything. I feel bad for my sister that she is carrying that weight, but we're adults, so it's her decision now.
This was me too. I am sending your inner child a hug. We didn't deserve that, but now we can release ourselves of the burden. I believe in you.
Lol 😂 I don’t mean to laugh I just can relate I was the golden child also and my brother was the black sheep. He finally caught on and lost it all so he became the “fake Christian trump supporter” 😂 golden child and I’m the black sheep now. Finally go so upset today over an incident that happened today and told my grandmother I never want to talk to any of my family members again 😂
@@candma4240 I get that it’s tough
I appriciate your sharing. I wonder what my brother who is golden child feels and maybe u have given me more insight
Children know, it's just that adults treat them like they are dumb just because they don't have the vocabulary to describe what's happening
Kids don’t have long term memory when they are little so alot of stuff is suppressed
100% I knew. I would actually vocalise at a very early age that the way I was being raised was going to cause major issues for me when I grow up … and it has
Right, they take it vantage of our naivety and vulnerability because we can’t properly challenge them as equals when we were just kids.
Plus the constant unified gaslighting makes a kid doubt their internal truth
@@ilovemeevennow9125 bull. I have always had long term memory. Discounting children's minds is a big mistake!!!
"You might have certain triggers like someone not standing up for you"
oh
"or being excluded from social situations"
Oh
"or perceive you're always in the wrong even if you're right"
OH
Illustrates my life experience, and just shy of 58 years its identified and given a name...alas, I can now go forward realizing its actually not an inherent flaw within me
💯💯💯
This!
This is me as well!
Tears.
My toxic family system. "Your father doesn't have to say hello to you because he's the breadwinner. He works hard. But if you don't say hello when he comes in again, he's every right to shout at you". For years, evenings spent badmouthing me to each other within earshot (no man will want her, the teachers don't like her, she's not like our other child...). The truth : my father was a serial philanderer with a hot temper and my mother sought connection with him by bonding over the idea their child was bad.
Sadly - it was probably the only thing your mother could bond with your father about as they likely lacked any other potential capacity or common elements between them.
I’m sorry
I’m sorry....happened to my husband too....check out Bumped Bruised and Blessed channel too.....happened to her also🌼.....we can and will heal 💛
Wow, that’s freaking evil.
My mother and older sister talk about me in derogatory terms in front of me too. You had it rough. Hard to forgive my sister as she is a long time meditator and claims some sort of spiritual advancement. Still does it.
"Cheap Intimacy" is the perfect term to put my relationship to my family. The only deep conversations they're capable of are the ones that are intellectual and even those they cant stop themselves from one upping one another.
Omg yes!! Politics, religion…and anything else they can discuss to make them look intelligent. Fine you win. You can be the genius and I’ll be the idiot.
THIS! I never fell connected to my parents.
Yes! My mother has always prided herself in being "so close with her kids", yet every single time I try to have a serious and important conversation with her, she will sit in silence until I give up or she'll just rudely change the subject as if she didn't even hear me. And she wonders why I've been slipping away from her.
Lol reminds me of all those times I would go to my dads side of the family house and all the cop family members would tell their cop stories was so fake but all a show and so exhausting even my own father got sick and tired of it
In my family, it's all about degrees, careers, and sports.
I chose not to go to a University, because I didn't want to be a debt slave. I've never had a shiny career (yet I am successful) and I only occasionally pay attention to college sports; even though I've always been athletically inclined.
I get virtually ignored by most of my blood-family and extended.
I’m just upset because I really thought my thinking was logical and didn’t realize it was negative self-talk until I started writing things down. Word for word, repeating exactly what my parents told me as a child. You can’t outshine two narcissists. They react.
That's why they beat my sibling and assigned them the scapegoat label (at the age of 3), because the very intelligent and gifted child was showing such tremendous potential. They saw to it that that would never be allowed to flourish, that the child would never be allowed to thrive. They were downright evil. ~ Thanks for your insightful comment. >> "You can't outshine two narcissists. They react." and boy, did they! They will answer to God for what they did.
@Sara Fox
Not just "feels like," destructive behavior is destructive. That narcissism destroys lives, *is evil.
Those "rebellious teen" years you spent pleading with your abusers.
You never get them back.
@@nathanpetrich7309 Good.
100% So true! My inner critics are my parents voices!
Would be interesting to see a video on when the child is burdened with being the rescuer.
Find any good ones? I'm so sick of it all, I'm obligated because she's old now apparently.
@@katierose1893 Same. Would love to go no contact but they´re too old and sick now. But I´m still the ungrateful child.
My parents divorced when I was three and father hated my mother, while she was happy she managed to escape. I was always told what a horrible person she was and I had to “hate” her to make my father and his half-witted mother feel good. Also granny from the mother’s side was all in in father’s bullshit and played along. Now everyone left her because she played her role and she constantly sobs to me how lonely she is, and how ungrateful everyone treats her.
I’ve started spending time with healthy people and went to consulting, now I am genuinely terrified of the hell I woke up in.
I hope you found this example of elements of child rescuing role interesting :)
I was the rescuer and when my mom finally divorced the supposed persecutor we had nothing left to talk about. She only cared about me because I was someone to talk to and I would defend her. My brothers and dad were awful too, but they definitely were scapegoats. She wonders why we aren't close now and it's because our bond was cheap to begin with. I learned to set boundaries and now I am the scapegoat. It's my fault that we don't have a closer family because I am unwilling to deal with my toxic mom and siblings. Thankfully I am now an adult and have learned to see through the gaslighting. We aren't a close family because we are all emotionally stunted and don't know what a close family is. My mom's idea of a close family is that we get together for every holiday and get along for the sake of getting along. We look happy, but in reality no one is having a good time but her. She is only having a good time because everyone else is pretending to and she doesn't see that as a problem.
any update on this?
Wow. Just wow. I was viewed as difficult because I always called my parents on their dysfunction. I told my mother when I was 10 that I wasn’t being raised right. I was born in the late 60s though, so this type of info just wasn’t available. This will really help me on my journey reparenting myself. Thank you so much.
Same here. Have you found any good books or videos? Hope you're progressing well on your journey
Your parents, my parents, and their parents were in the same place, not having the knowledge to deal with raising a family.
You were the "truth teller". Hard to believe but some people aren't interested in conflict resolution or growth.
Same. I told my mom so many times about what was going on, but she’d laugh, smile, tell me I’m being ridiculous, or at the end she just didn’t care and was fine with the way she was.
Same. I knew my upbringing wasn't normal from a very young age. The irony is, even though I swore I wouldn't adopt the same traits, I still managed to do so. My logical brain knew what I should do, but I think my subconscious was so destroyed from a young age that I completely gave into the toxic behaviors myself. I even told my mother that she was a bad mom, at the age of 12 or 13. That did not go down well.
Cheap Intimacy within family = 'I love you' - as if these words 'seal' everything and make their lack of interest in your life - ok. Now if they give me cheap 'I love you' I'll say 'ah that's nice'. I used to say it back to reciprocate warmth, but all I'm doing is accepting and swallowing 'pretty lies'. No more!
I have watched literally hundreds of hours of videos about narcissism on TH-cam yet this one blew my mind. I'd never considered the view point of the narcissist acting the victim to allow them to get away with all the drama they create. I also see how the scapegoat is gaslit into being the persecutor when they are in fact the true victim of the drama and how the narcissist indirectly attacks the scapegoat through the rescuers. The whole dynamic is indeed a deception to fool the scapegoat into believing there is something wrong with them, brilliant insightful video, really opened my eyes.
Your summary of it was super helpful.
Yes it is so relieving as I am experiencing a lot of shame, having been scapegoated by my dismissive mom and narc dad.
Yes, nailed the video and the narrative. Thank you both.
Great video
@@MissSarahGM me too!
Cheap intimacy is a perfect term. One person's connection with another person is cheap when it is based on dehumanizing someone else.
It took years of therapy and introspective thought to realize what you so eloquently say in 15 minutes!!! Keep up the good work!
I know, right? I keep saying that on every video! How did it take all this time searching for healing answers and suddenly Boom here you go. I keep shaking my head like how does this person KNOW these details of my life, and all these other people too, we all felt totally alone. But we have tons of kin in this trauma, so hopefully it grows and we all get healthier faster! And don't repeat this ever!!
We need a place to get the conversation growing. But very sensitively. Wisely. Carefully gently.
Seriously!!
"Traditional" therapy is similar to Big Pharma😔 typically wasteful, can make you feel worse with its side effects & should only be used very short term... Also one of the old paradigms / systems like education , government, etc that is being exposed with the shift into the New Earth... Many are resisting the recognition that solutions are more simple (and inexpensive) than they've been trained (unfortunately) to believe.. Especially with natural medicines... Ancestral cleansing works wonders as well.. ❤️🙏
🤗💖💖💖
seriously, i second this. Videos like these can help our society to heal and became more emotionally aware instead of inheriting generational toxic shame and turning into narcissists and codependents.
I have no relationship with my brother because of the triangulation my parents strategized. I resent my brother for falling for it.
As a sibling who fell for it, I'm sorry. Now that I know what was going on and have set boundaries, I am the scapegoat. It's only a matter of time before your brother loses his tenuous position as rescuer/golden child/victim.
Just reading your comment made me gasp out loud. Same with my sister - no relationship (torn asunder likely from the dysfunctional FoO). She triangulates with my mom, but doesn’t see it… then I am the outcast for not participating in the drama triangle. So wish my sister could see it, but she does not…
I remember being 12 telling my emotionally abusive ultra "Chrisitian" mother that she's a hypocrite😅 and her then becoming phsyically abusive. Then after being smacked accross the face by her, my "Rescuer" Father acted as though that part didn't happen, and instead lectured me on how my mother is "Anything but a hypocrite" and that "I don't know the meaning of the word". Needless to say, I knew exactly what the word meant.😑
I remember saying “I didn’t ask to be born” to my mother when I was around 9 or 10. She of course reacted poorly and I was stridently punished. But what I realise now, with the luxury of yrs of therapy, is that children are wise and see the reality…they just don’t yet have the words. But you see it clearly. I found out a few yrs later as a teen, that my mom did not want to get pregnant or be with my dad. 1970 and also no abortion rights ..poor and insecure…she married my dad and so I expect my words cut toooo close to the bone.
@@Confused2023been there, saying I didn't asked to be born... It's great you were able to get help. Care to share what kind of therapy worked for you?
"do not provoke your children".
That's an ignored scripture.
Wow....... I didn’t think this was even possible...... It looks like my mother and sister have managed to create an environment where I am the persecutor in all three situations
1) Between my mom and sister (“Here she goes again, she’s always the unusual one. Temperamental, overly-sensitive, she will never get a boyfriend.”)
2) Between my parents (“She is so ungrateful. What do you mean we treat her two sisters better?”)
3) Between my two sisters (“We are the good ones. She’s weird and she left us.”)
Is this even possible? That someone is the persecutor in all three scenarios within one family setting?
I’ve been in therapy since I was 18. I’m 40 now and it’s only recently I feel that I can handle this on my own and bid a heartfelt goodbye to my therapist.
To the people out there battling this, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.and it’s worth fighting for.
I read your comment went "wait, did I write this?" Lol. Let's just say I am totally picking up what you're putting down. -Sadie
I second that earlier comment reply. I could have written this word for word in my situation too. You are a strong person for rising above the cycle.
Scapegoat here. I am not even mad at my sibling. I have very low contact with my parent and that is good enough for me. My life is much better without the drama. Very bitter sweet.
Well I’m mad at mine for the very first time. Could not be then for I would have not even a shacy ally.
Your phrase: being who you were vs being who you were told you were - that is the core & needs to be at the beginning of all of your videos. I've only watched 4 so far, but to me that identity crisis is the cause of so much low self-esteem, strife, shame, and general self sabotage. Thank you for your videos.
Now I understand why I can't have a deep, connected, intimate relationship with my mum. She is only capable of cheap intimacy (which her and my enmeshed older sister do very well). Thank you for making this clear. I've been the family scapegoat all my life. It is soul destroying and has caused so much pain and illness. Patrick, this is the fourth of your videos I've watched this morning. They are brilliant. They nail, communicate and clarify all the confusion and problems that arise from family dysfunction. And when I went no-contact with my FOO I had many friends say 'but they're your family' or 'but it's your mum'. My response now is, yes, but they are not yours and you have no idea what went on (or in my case with neglect, what didn't go on).
Your words perfectly describe my recent epiphanies regarding my dysfunctional family system. At age 62! (am the eldest). The poor decisions I've consistently made throughout life have only recently been fully realised through Patrick's videos. Everything is clear to me now, but maybe I need to join his group. :) I basically partnered up with someone who has a similar personality to my mother ...whilst moving closer to home to be nearer them in an attempt to be accepted by them both) My mother is 91 now, needs care, and I need to escape. :(
I completely relate.
I was the scapegoat. The family United in their hatreds of me. That was their only bond. When love doesn't unite people, hatred will do just fine.
I left them decades ago.
A fascinating concept I learned years ago is that something that binds people together is finding a common enemy.
I hate that your comment is so freaking true.
@@Hawaiiansky11 Someone designates you as the enemy the rest just went along with it.
Wise girl....did the same and the good Lord helped me.
Your wording is helpful, insightful, thank you. >> "That was their only bond. When love doesn't unite people, hatred will do . ." So glad you left them so long ago. I wish my sibling had survived to do the same and to understand these things. They were labeled the scapegoat, and were to their death. They died with a broken heart, suffering all those years, longing for their love, never understanding why they were made the whipping boy. Poor John. SMH. This corruption has devastated how many lives?
Mom, to whoever would listen, my whole life: "if I said something was black, she said it was white!"
Me, as an adult: "that's bc you were telling me white things were black, mom"
I'm sorry, I find that sarcastic response humorous. I think a lot of us learn to use sarcasm as a coping mechanism!
Mine too. So true!
🙏
This is indistinguishable from what happened to me omg
@@Hawaiiansky11
I find it humerus as well!! Oops!!
This video changed my life and explained my family dynamic with my husband and daughter. I simply had no idea I was the rescuer and my daughter was the scapegoat! I am dealing with the fact that I married a man to help me raise her and to cover my shame. I now see how terrible this is! I pray for my healing and my daughters as I go through the process of divorce
But, you are willing to acknowledge it! Bravo to you! How many parents in your place are willing to do the hard work and actually admit to being wrong? I congratulate you, and am so proud of you! Your daughter will thank you.
My parents would have these "family meetings" and it would just be hours of them talking down to me, yelling, belittling. They would then always complain I wasn't talking enough and as an adult I think I might have heavily dissociated through those times, and yet I think I'm technically the golden child because I did well at school and would look after other kids around the neighborhood.
How frustrating to have to go through that
@@MacChicken-up2rl Yeah, more devastating than frustrating but even now if they are stressed they both turn on me like this. Nothing changed.
Did we have the same parents?! LOL I’m so sorry you went through that, I had the exact same experience, once my mom married my stepdad they would have the belittling sessions towards me.. sat me down and told me everything that was wrong with me. This happened from age 17, happened throughout college (they would come visit my apt and do the same thing and I was to brainwashed to realize that was not normal) until I finally got married at 28, and moved too far away for them to follow me. Plus my good husband would not stand for that kind of abuse towards me. Getting married and moving away was the beginning of my healing, thank God.
Mine did the exact same thing except they would bring in their friends (who knew nothing about me) to take their side while I was put on trial.
@@csviolin0516I experienced the same thing. Disgusting behavior.
It is SO HARD to validate my own experience after being gaslit for over 40 years.
As soon as I start to feel like I have a grasp on the reality underlying the drama, I always INSTINCTIVELY tell myself, (in my mother’s voice) “Don’t be a victim.” Which she always meant as “ just dont ever feel sorry for yourself, don’t blame others for you being upset.” Which sounds good all my jtself, but in a scapegoating drama triangle, is incredibly horrible gaslighting and shaming.
It’s so hard to legitimize even in my own self-assessment, that I’m not “blaming” when I just let go of self-blame for wrongs that really were someone else’s responsibility.
Ive questioned and questioned whether I really am the one who is the narcissist.
Right!?
Constantly questioning whether or not you're wrong for feeling and thinking a certain way, and wondering if you're imagining what happened. Smdh!
My parents strengthened their marriage by scapegoating me. We talk about the weather now..... It's torture. OMG yes those things you mentioned are hot button triggers for me.
I am stuck too at small talk with my relatives, but there's so much unresolved stuff below
Talk about the weather… 😂 That’s my dad to a “T”- it’s so sad / empty. Grateful for other fulfilling (non-FoO) relationships I have, that offer more substance.
Kind of like "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Why aren't there more therapists like you?? It's so difficult and costly in time, energy and money to find help from another who truly understands this type of dysfunctional family dynamics.
Being the only child means being the golden child AND the scapegoat.
Oof. That’s some hard hitting truth. My parents always said “You are the perfect daughter! ... except for this one thing!”
Translation: The person can do no wrong and they do everything wrong. ~ It's amazing the "magical" tricks their "reality" plays. It's completely irrational.
Yessss. And, Isolated with no support. Just a sponge.
I was the victim role and my sister was the scapegoat. We were exactly that last example. It took years of therapy for both of us to be able to form a bond. Now we’re very close and committed to personal growth and personal responsibility.
Yes that was in our family and my sister still thinks it was me.
Oh geez… my sis was the scapegoat nearly 24/7, and my youngest brother, me, and my older (abusive) brother were all golden children. My younger brother was kind of invisible (and me as well at times). My oldest brother was invisible/enabled/handicapped because of Asperger’s and my parents not equipping him (or any of us, to adult well).
There were 6 kids… so lots of chaos and crazy dynamics. My sis never seemed to have bad feelings towards me, but I now have a much deeper empathy for her struggles.
It’s been a different kind of hell to be the golden child/invisible child. My parents see no wrong in me, but they also don’t see me at all… what I want/need, so I was extremely emotionally neglected, while my sister and other siblings emotionally and verbally abused each other… I just kinda shrunk away and dissociated through most of it.
I was the victim too, strangely my mum was the persecutor/scrapgoat. And yea it's like they don't see ur faults...but they don't really see you at all
Anyone else watching this and taking tons of notes going into the holidays? I feel like I’m cramming for an exam... 😂
Yes!!
google sheets.. I have 100s of sheets with dozens of tabs, that's over 1000 sheets of notes.
A year later, yes 👍
my jaw dropped watching this video. These are concepts not often discussed in therapy and also in psychology/toxic relationships contexts - the concept of the "rescuer" and "persecuter" This is how I was abused by my parents and my older sibling. WOW.
I knew it already, but the more I watch, the more I learn, the more it becomes clearer that my family is completely fucked up. Not just my parents, but my relatives too. Gosh... I am thankful to youtube for suggesting me your vids and to you for making them. ❤
From a Scapegoat that lived in the wilderness and who was only allowed in when blame needed somewhere to sit. It was really helpful.
It is the story of my life too. As an adult now, after many years passed, I still have nightmares about being back there and being homeless...
What an epically eloquent expression of the reality so many of us know so well...❤️
Damn
Powerful thank you I resonate with your words . Very helpful .
That's beautiful ❤️
Literally trying not to cry seeing how i’m the scapegoat and they refuse to go to family counseling.
I read a book, aimed at psychiatrists and how to treat people,referring to Scapegoats as 'gifted'. I was offended by that, until I realized that in a way, we are gifted, because we are the most hurt, and the most likely to get psychological help, and thus, the most likely to stop the cycle of abuse from going to another generation.
I made a promise to myself before I ever had children, that they would never go one single day questioning my love for them. I now have a great relationship with them, and they have a pretty good relationship with each other. That's my success story. And there ain't a damned thing my abusive family-of-origin (FOO) can do about it.
@@Hawaiiansky11 I’m so proud of you and happy for you. I believe most toxic things that people want to push under the rug and blame for not having manual on parenting stems from the parent not being humble and willing to learn with their child, being domineering and controlling, and from being to prideful and not wanting to face personal problems and seek help from their own drama and childhood issues. They blame everything else when the answers are in the world but they refuse to seek the truth and play victim instead. And that’s how people become toxic spouses and parents who show favoritism, incestual parenting, narcissism, helicopter parenting, bi polar disorders, enabling, and the list goes on....and then scientific labels help the victims to identify the toxic people but then you got those who use disorders as a crutch to continue being toxic....uh no. Everyone has the capacity to do good and to do what is right. Everyone learns at different speeds and understands differently but people are NOT incapable. God made everything GOOD. In Genesis when He made man He called man and woman GOOD. It was man and woman that chose to do evil and to consider what was good and bad based on knowledge. That’s why I can’t stand when people say “I’m only human...” when they try to excuse bad behavior. I’m like you’re right and you are the creation that was created to make JUDGEMENTS and not live on animalistic instincts like a animal only operating on feelings. Everything that looks and feels good ain’t good but toxic people seem to gravitate to the lusts of the flesh and their feelings more than seeking the truth and doing what is right which requires to sacrifice your feelings sometimes. We know toxic parents WILL NOT DO THIS. They are not incapable of it they just refuse to. I’m about to have a son come into the world soon and thank GOD! I understand my issues and how I was treated just to be SURE I break the cycle and teach him emotional intelligence and boundaries at an early age. We may even watch sitcoms and Tv shows together while he is growing up while talking about character dynamics for him to visually see who are toxic people and who aren’t so he won’t question it when he faces it in real life.
The only person we can save is ourselves.
Not everyone wants to change. Keep concentrating on learning yourself and you will just keep growing and growing. I find prayer helps tremendously..
They lack the capacity to do the internal work of self exploration. I"m in the same boat. I told my parents to pick the counselor and I would show up. The previous 5 years of estrangement wasn't enough of a motivator. It's been 5 years and I still haven't seen them - They can't imagine anything good coming from counseling. (aka - I don't want to be responsible for changing and growing up). I miss the concept of family but I don't miss them or my siblings.
Yeah this happened in my family too. When I went NC, my two brothers pointed fingers at me and bonded with my parents to show me how 'bad' of a daughter I am. I am again going NC (it didn't stick the first time) and this time I won't care of what my brothers are thinking.
But hey, being the persecutor in a narcissistic family just shows you that you're the normal, healthy one who needs to stay away from the family. That's how I see it nowadays.
Thanks for sharing this. You took the words right out of my mouth. I am going n/c for the 4 the or more time but with so much more understanding and serenity. We are the healthy ones.
Good luck! How are you doing now?
My narcissist mother had always an excuse about my golden child sister- apparently when she was pregnant with her, her husband was shouting a lot, so my sister was born "disturbed "....But all it was, like you said, she enabled her to shout ever since! I had to leave this toxic "home " for my own sanity. I never came back, not even to introduce my husband or my children! But I do feel down hearing and understanding now what they did and how it damaged me as a person. Life for me is a constant struggle.
Wow! “Toxic Loyalty “. I identified with that term. Thank you.
Those triggers! So true, extremely difficult. Once triggered I project my narc mother onto every authority figure in sight and assume they're all furious. Shame starts to crush me (shoulders curl down, neck bends). It gets in the way of work, relationships, basic tasks. When I think I've hurt or upset someone, I automatically jump to being "very bad." I never thought to disconnect the two concepts before your video💡Thanks for your clean, crisp perspective!
What do you mean project your narc mother onto everyone?
This is so powerful. Especially around children not being able to determine drama from reality ❤️
So true!
Here's my take away. An adult is just an older kid and all immaturity's are likely to come to pass like a bomb waiting to go off. Even a skilled bomb diffuser is no match for an encrypted programmed bomb which is why the professionals tell us to run.
Chef kiss brilliant description
My greatest fear is that some day youtube won't exist
i worry about this too
Gosh, the world is so scary xC
@@jazzalterio692 nah don't worry too much about it though, it's kind of good because then you can choose to make the most out of what you have now. Always learn as much as you can!
Download and save to your computer all the vids that you want to keep. Open accts on Rumble, CloutHub and/or BenChute (for vids) ... Gab, WeGo, Telegram, Liiighthouse, Minds, Spreely, and some other newcomers (for social media). All are uncensored and 'fact checker' free! Do it NOW before YT cancels and deletes everything.
wish that was my worst fear
This resonates so much with me. My whole relationship with my grandmother was based on her training me to hate the people she hates so she has someone to hate on them with, and then being surprised that I continue to dislike and distrust them when she ‘makes nice’ my mother was abusive and neglectful, but my grandmother only stoked my fear and hatred of her because I would willingly spend hours hating on the woman with her when they were estranged. When they mended fences it was suddenly time for me to forgive and forget and go stay for weekends, and the abuse was then only ever brought up to remind me how grateful I should be to my ‘saviours’ and that I could be sent back to that if I ever displeased them
My mother used to 'gossip' to me about my siblings. I thought that meant that she was 'confiding' in me, and that she really didn't like them very much. Only years (like, decades!) later, did I realize that she was doing the same thing with them; talking about me, and what a disappointment I was.
This has the effect of making us all see the bad in each other, and also divides us up, so that (1) she can be the sole source of information (and change it depending on who she is telling), and (2) make us distrust one another, so that we don't communicate or test her version of reality with one another.
@@Hawaiiansky11 yes, I recently came to this realisation about her too. We are not in actuality especially close, I realised she feigns the same level of closeness with everyone to their face, and eviscerates them behind their backs. I have no relationship with any of the family members she is in with, I have cobbled together a few individuals by seeking out other black sheep who are beyond her sphere of influence, which she hates, and has tried to use me as a source of information on them.
@@Hawaiiansky11
Very well expressed!
@@Hawaiiansky11 that is exactly what my mom does. I'm always afraid to cut ties with her because I'll suddenly lose that access to info about everyone else. But I think I'm going to try to cut ties yet again.
That's awful. My mother would do this too about my siblings, about my father, about other people, but when she was okay with them, I was expected to change gears and be okay too otherwise I was angry and grudgeful person who made life difficult for others.
You just made me realize that the only help I can offer to my damaged family is leaving them and breaking the scenario of their drama forever.
Drama triangle was a lightbulb for me years ago....Being a scapegoat and going no contact has helped me thrive and was definitely the essential path for living authentically for sure 🌟
I think I just learned something new. In my family, my father is a narcissist, my mother was his enabler when they were together. My younger brother was the baby and always was given more help and attention than me when we were children. I feel like I was left behind because my Mom saw me as stronger than my brother and thus able to fend for myself. I was verbally and emotionally abused horrifically by my father up until I was 49 years old. I feel like I was the sacrificial lamb for my Mom and my brother because they saw me as a strong personality and able to fend for myself against my Dad. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying in this video but maybe not.
Cheap intimacy is definitely 💯 the dynamic and payoff for targeting a scapegoat in my family. Mom did choose between us and definitely had a Golden Child. It was awful then and it is still awful today.
Pretty much me against my whole family. I remember my brother and I would get into fights on Christmas... My brother would stomp down hard on my toe and I'd get upset and then Mum would say I ruined Christmas.
This would happen on Christmas, new years ...
Another time, my sister and I went in to grab a piece of pizza at the same time. Her hand was under mine, and a small anchovy fell onto her hand as I was lifting up my piece. We were at a restaurant and she then threw it at me in an angry way. I was like what the hell Jane, why would you do that!? . She said YOU THREW IT AT ME. My Dad then said Rachel stop arguing with your sister and shut up!
Another time I was sitting on the side of the couch just about to eat my dinner. My brother farted right in my food as he walked past. Then I got very angry and upset and my Dad came over and slapped me in the head and told me to shut up. I was saying what my brother did and he said he didn't give a shit and didn't want to hear it.
And a lifetime of very similar experiences.
Geez… That’s awful. I watched my parents treat my older sister this way… Telling her she’d never amount to anything, calling her a drama queen, hypochondriac, etc. Horribly emotionally and verbally abusive, and I couldn’t see the damage it was causing me and my sister… 🤢 I was stuck in that horrible place of essentially being the rescuer and being verbally abused, too, potentially… or either joining in or staying quiet about it. I’d usually go quiet and dissociate.
Now it’s all coming back in gory details. I started having anxiety and panic attacks in early 2020 after a major trigger from childhood abuse.
So sorry you had to go through this alone… You are strong and resilient and brave to keep fighting. :)
That's horrible
My first TH-cam comment ever but I feel compelled to join the conversation. After many years of healthy living, to include therapy, no contact with my family of origin, and fostering truly authentic & rewarding relationships, I feel like a well adjusted adult and have worked through mountains of shame & self doubt originating from this familiar drama triangle. I’m proud of my recovery and feel well situated & joyful in my life. First of all, I hope that’s encouraging to anyone just beginning this journey of healing.
But secondly, I also want to share that’s there’s no single point of arrival. It’s about a life long commitment to self love & wellbeing and it’s normal to continue to experience triggers & setbacks. That feeling of being on the outside (time stamp 13:40) has been very real for me during the pandemic because my circle of support & intimacy is incredibly small, given that it excludes traditional systems of support like family & deep community ties that many peopled have relied on during this historic time. But- the triggering is now identifiable, I can work through it healthily and I see so much growth in myself. I hope this is reassuring to anyone wrestling with some of these dynamics during this unique season of our lives.❤️
Thank you so much for sharing this.
Thanks for sharing. That's what I've been going through. Its very isolating and lonely thinking about how I've lost connection to most of my family and extended family because of my toxic family system I grew up in. My heart goes out to you, and I feel less alone in the world through this channel group.
You really make these videos so easily understandable for everyone. My childhood really echos these videos. I’m sure you are saving many lives by validating the trauma us scapegoats went through.
This is all explained so freaking well. Thank you for this channel! It’s one of far best I’ve come across. I’m the oldest child who I guess played the scapegoat; and my sister was/is golden child and my brothers were mostly just neglected. I was the parentified child which makes losing my siblings to the narcissistic parent even more heart wrenching. This channel totally helps me. Thank you.
That is heartbreaking.
Same.
Holy shit. I came to a certain realization about this triangle some years back, but this really explains it. Brilliant content.
You are always bringing light to the very things I have been talking about. When I talk to my family, I only get further attempts from them to SG me GL me, and shame me. Accepting them as they are is hard. I do know now, in my 50's that they will never change. Yet, I can finally stop feeling like an alien on this planet. That is so valuable, to feel more whole, each day. Thank you!
If you're like my mom you just say "your dad isn't drunk" or "it's your fault he's drunk" or "we shouldn't talk about this with others around to judge us."
I don't even know how to explain my family issues. One of my mom's pastimes is calling me to tell me something stupid my dad did. When he boundary stomp my kids, I confront him. I never hesitate. If she shares something boundary stompy that he did around my kids that I wasn't aware of, she'll ask me not to say anything. To "just wait, cause he'll probably forget". I hate that she does it cause it's like she wants to piss me off for the sake of pissing me off. My mom is definitely an enabler, but idk what else. She loves to go behind people's backs (my dad's noncompliance with his diabetes, my brother's lack of motivation), then turns around and does something to continue the cycle (make 2 loaves worth of French toast, and multiple cakes in one day for my dad). I just don't get it. Idk what she wants from me in all of this but I only deal with them when there's something directly involving me or my children.
In the context of the video, maybe she is pushing you into the role of the persecutor. Making you aware of his behaviour that you have to confront him about, but pretending she wasn't the one to initiate that. So she can be the rescuer while your dad is the victim.
It could be a similar pattern with your dad's diabetes. Where at least your mother acts like the illness is a 'persecutor' [like a punishment] that your dad is a victim of while she 'rescues' [enables] him. With TWO LOAVES WORTH OF FRENCH TOAST wow that is so much.
I guess any kind of 'enemy' can be used to strengthen a relationship.
I am 50 years old and only now being able to look back clearly into family patterns, behaviors etc. bc I was in need (emergency surgery) but after I didn’t receive enough support and any needs were perceived “dramatic” ...realizing I’m on my own despite always showing up 100% of the time for others.
I was considered the “golden child” and it made me SO uncomfortable because I wanted our differences to both have value. Instead, one set of behaviours was valued and the other was villianised as selfish. All because Kaila called out stuff while I modelled my dad who was submissive and tried to understand the other perspective, but also ultimately gave into that perspective even if it was wrong.
I am just now realizing that the reason why I get so upset when my husband doesn't stick up for me is because no one in my family ever stood up for me. It's so frustrating that I can suffer from something and not even know why!
dang that second scenario hits hard i was definitely the "special child whom i overly identify with" and i carry a ton of guilt about what it did to my sibling. Luckily we're very open about our childhood trauma with each other and we never blame each other for anything... But it still gets to me sometimes.
I’ve honestly found this more helpful than the last 6 years of monthly/biweekly therapy... thank you so much for helpful empower young adults like me to navigate this family relationships. I’d love to learn more about how to might affect romantic relationships, me and both my siblings are finding that our childhood is affecting us having good romantic relationships as well.
Deep shame in being the golden child in so many of these situations. Currently doing the work to undo the lifetime of trauma from this. Thank you for sharing, it's validating to have words to put to these scenarios so I can heal from them.
I forgave my mother and brother, but I let them both go.
This video was wonderful & brutal & validating & painful & just awful & so very healing! Thank you, Patrick. I think I covered it all. Sending much love & gratitude.
This cheap intimacy is the dynamic my toxic family system had. Especially me because I was the family scapegoat.
I'm 16 and just discovered your channel and realized that I have a narcissistic mom who plays the victim to get my brother/dad to rescue her(and my younger sister is growing up and starting to get scapegoated too). Aside from not allowing myself to play rescuer if she's victimizing herself to another family member, how do I set healthier boundaries without getting a bunch of stuff taken from me?(since I'm still, like, living in the household and under her power and all that)
I don t really have tips, struggling with those issues myself at my 40s, but I am so happy to read your comment and so sure that in a couple of years, maybe you will be struggling a bit financially, but you will be living your best life, having come to all those hard realizations about family dynamics at such a young age! Wishing you all the best, and also wishing you strenght and patience until you move out❤❤
I am not exaggerating when I tell you this video is LIFE-CHANGING! Thank you
Insightful - Thank You -this puts a different spin on the Triangle than how I viewed it previously. Interesting as it is the one who is "defending oneself from the abuser" who becomes the persecutor through their failed self-advocacy. As the feigned helper isn't actually helping but is teaming up with the (perceived) victim.
Gosh, where have you been all these years? I only just found you when I'm almost out of the woods but still you give me so much food for thought. You should have at least a million subscribers.
This is something I definitely relate to, as the skapegoat child. The other 2 siblings were treated as the golden child.
While we were adult children, still having our roles, it was very stressful, at times. One sibling was easy to get along with, but as the parents became elderly and he was married, I was never invited or included at his house. My sister was often invited to their house. She knew all the fine details of everyone and I was kept out of the loop. She was a golden child that my parents often used to receive the feedback that I was the problem. My only safe way to avoid any uncomfortable situations, was to live and work far away. Safety through distance or proximity. Now, years later, that dynamic still exists, even though the parents passed away.
Your insight on this subject is remarkable. Thank you for all you do.
This video really helped me. I never understood before this that my feeling like an outsider in my family, my parents ganging up on me, and their (not reality-based) view of me as ungrateful were connected in such a concrete way. It makes so much sense. Thank you so much.
Holy shit the "persecutor" scapegoat. That's me!
I just had an epiphany. For my entire life, I never understood why my brothers after getting into trouble with the law, drugs, and moving to an entirely different neighborhood so they could be around “better kids”, , through to their 4th decades of life, revolved around them and they received all the attention, focus, spending thousands of dollars on legal bills and I was virtually ignored. now I know! My parents identified with them and not me. I went to college and moved away 💝(far away-had to for my survival). WOW!
Man, you do an exceptional job of describing so many families, including my own.
In my childhood both my parents played victim/rescuer, my brother was assigned the role of rescuer/victim and I was always the scapegoat. One of the first therapists I had laid this out and It was totally over my head.. that was over 10 years ago and I'm just starting to be able to make sense of all this.
I love the way you begin these videos! Nature. Peace. Wellbeing. That's what these intro bring to me: and then, I'm excited that I've tapped into "gold" when I watch you speak to us about childhood trauma and family dysfunction. Finally, someone who is addressing this topic! When you have grown up in dysfunction, where emotions are not tolerated, this is a huge blessing. Thank you sooooo much!
Patrick, this is so good. The most helpful parts were the examples with a breakdown of how each role functions. Would LOVE to see more about the longterm impact of scapegoating and how to overcome.
Really appreciate you!!
and your closing comments about what would trigger a child from this home environment - this was EXACTLY ME for many many years. Thank you, I feel so seen!!!
You have described the exact core of what has been causing me so much pain. My mother plays the victim because she does not like that I do not give her all the attention she wants from me. My sister takes her side and resents that I harm our mother with my behavior. They bond over how selfish and insensitive they think I am and their power in numbers causes my mind to wobble and wonder if maybe what they think about me is true. What they think about me is not true. They do not take personal responsibility for their enmeshed dysfunction and they share a cheap connection at my expense. Thank you for sharing your insights and putting words to what I have always felt is true.
Thank you for such a helpful video on a very painful subject. It has helped me enormously to see clearly theretoxic dynamic that played out for most of my !ife. I was even blamed and criticised during cancer treatment by one of my sisters. The dynamic played out exactly as described with me always the bad/wrong/scapegoat no matter how hard I tried to 'make' them love, appreciate, a cept, validate my genuine traumatic experiences. They seemed to actually enjoy kicking me when I was down. In the end I had to cut all contact after my parents died as they became worse and also for my actual mental and physical survival. I couldn't believe or accept that my sisters could be so cruel and was truly shocked to the core. Believe this can happen, it happened to me. It has taken forever to heal and I'm still struggling with the belief that there must have been something inherently wrong and unlovable about me but now can see that this was set out by my mother when we were children and our 'roles 'were cast.. So very sad but you can survive and heal from this.
I stopped dancing in the dysfunctional dance and absorbing their toxic negativity! It took me until age 40. Warning, their behavior got worse. I collapsed the triangle when I removed myself
I appreciate that you used the analogy of TV show characters to make it easier to understand
I know the mom and two daughters drama too well! It's an agony to be the rejected one.
I’m only a third of the way through the video but the Office analogy makes SO much sense! Thank you! I’ma go keep watching now...
Patrick Teahan LICSW btw i never thought you’d actually read the comments but those forms/quizzes on your website are so well thought out and eye opening! So thanks for those too, and for making them free and publicly available!
So to live in real life, anything equal to disorder drama or more than the office is actually not fun. Why is watching it so entertaining for even someone who has lived it. Is it brain porn? For me it's relaxing to watch and great comfort pours in by knowing I am not in that world and my mind can relax and gain insight on how to stay safe if I was.
The constant trauma of never knowing the mood of the parent and what is “okay” for them, to say/talk about.
Wow! You pictured my life especially in the visualizations that mom blames the daughter for being selfish. Thank you for this video and all others. I really appreciate it. It is really helpful for those who have schildhood trauma like me and scapegoated throughout all the years they spend with their dysfunctional family. I'd like to answer your question whether the victim (narcissistic) and the rescuer have a real connection. My answer is absolutely NO because when the bad guy (scapegoat) like me leaves this toxic home they don't get along with each other and again try to contact with the scapegoat. I advice all the scapegoats of their families to go away from all these toxic stuff and never allow narcissists and enablers to take them back in this toxicity again. Hang up the phone. I think this is the best option.
How DARE you call the mother and daughter example a hypothetical when it LITERALLY described my family dynamic! You are amazing sir and I wasn't prepared to be called out like this lol! Great video and it helped me a lot
This video has a lot of helpful information, but it makes me so mad because I have spent many years thinking that I had just been an annoying, angsty teen who was overdramatic and now I’m starting to think I was just gaslighted into feeling that way and I was right the whole time 🤬
In very large families, you can have a couple of golden children that are codependent and enable the toxic parent, and a couple of scapegoats that blame gets shifted between. And sometimes those two or three scapegoats learn to spend years or even decades throwing eachother under the bus so as not to be the scapegoat at that particular time. My oldest sister and I spent decades gossiping about eachother, pitted against eachother, desperately trying to not be the Most Scapegoated Scapegoat. As long as there was someone beneath us we felt like we were “winning” in some way. We knew we weren’t ever going to be Golden Child, but not being the biggest demon was a win.
Thank you for the fantastic explanation. It's interesting how common and predictable this pattern is. I was always seen as dramatic, overly sensitive, judgmental- my mom always the one who had the verdict on what was real or true. It took me several sessions of therapy to see that my frequent spirals of negative thinking were triggered by feeling invalidated or by shame due to perceiving that I am always the problem, I am always in the wrong even when that is not the case (as you mentioned).
I would be really interested in seeing a video where you go more in-depth about what exactly tends to happen in the mind of an adult who, as a child, was often labeled as a persecutor by his/her parents once triggered by social exclusion, not being supported etc.
Very accurate analysis. It's a repetitive game in which the scapegoated always lose. Painful.
Oh my goodness the..."After all I've done for you. After all that I do for you."... all too familiar and such a punch in the gut not being allowed to feel your feelings or have a voice but expected to just take it and be okay with it.
Clicked for the office, did not expect to be absolutely blasted with relating to these scapegoat situations. The main triggers being excluded or not stood up for SPOT ON.
I have such a good example for that: So i forgot my sisters birthday (we actually not communicate at otger times just when i see her we are making small talk). Then she was not speaking to me. I apologized for it.
So in this phase i went to my parents house. I needed their car and there was staying the night bc it would have taking me too long to drive home. I was in the last months before my biggest final ever and i needed to do research on the internet. I worked 24/7 and had no time to rest at all.
Suddenly my father came down and told me that my sister is demanding me (yes not asking, demanding) to go off the internet bc she wanted to was a life show. I tried talking to her saying. Why is not making a compromise snd stuff. I need to go iff the internet right now. No duscussion. She was living with my parents. So she had the right to do so. And bc i needed the research time and she didnt make any compromise or efford.to compromise i said. Come down to make a compromise. Then we'll see. She unplugged the internet totally bc she wanted to punish me for not following her orders.
First my mum was on my side and said its not ok. But she still didnt do anything. The next time i went there my mum told me to not go on the internet bc she didnt want fights happening.
Your videos are very helpful. Especially the cognitive therapy role playing. Great for young people and adults. I feel like a child in an adult body when I start trying to face these issues internally.
PERFECT RELEVANCE! The chronic confusion I felt my whole child/teenhood (and dissociation as a main way to cope) with the developed feeling of, “I’m just a bad person, a lesser form of human so that’s why it’s ok to treat me like sh*t, that’s why I tolerate this behavior, because I don’t deserve better…” I couldn’t figure out what was going on as a kid and just cried all the time but didn’t know what to say to adults when I would cry everyday at school. The willpower I needed to get through this was momentous. I’m so stunted still but still fighting. This video made me cry so hard, really unlocked a key piece in my healing journey. Thank you so much Patrick.
always interesting as a child when i would watch the 3 narcissists in my family take on new permutations and combinations of victim, rescuer, and persecutor (i was always either the golden child or the scapegoat depending on the usefulness of using me as either)
This scenario really hits home for our family.... All I can say is thank god for my father who did bring balance back into play for me and my brother. Mother and second daughter would gang up on our father and the rest of the family. And still do to this very day. Since our father passed away in 2006 I was made the 100% scapegoat. Sister has stolen money and possessions from mother and some how... I get blamed.... 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 I finally walked away in 2018 and left them to their own games... Now they pick on my brother.... 😪😪😪😪😪😪
WOW , i kinda relate but I'm the only girl in the house everyone say I'm spoiled but nah I'm a scapegoat and also thanks to my father who balanced everything but they still gang up on him *mom and 2nd bro* and when I negotiate to defend they don't like it , I lack emotional connection with them so much , in my room most of the time feel pretty lonely, because I love to talk and interact but I end up with an argument or something.
The problem is I don't know how I'm going to be the person I wanna be when I'm all messed up right now 😂
If you are old enough, you need to move out get your own little place.... if not just be yourself and stay true to you... until you can move out. Honestly, it's the best feeling, ever when you get your first little place. Because there is only you and your energy. May life bring you joy and release from the situation. Never feel guilty for breaking ties.... Do what you have to for you 💖💖
This format is excellent! Thank you. Now if I can just keep the focus on my own healing as the scapegoat and stop dreaming that my sister will watch this and she and I can be well. Detaching can be a full time job!!
Is it bad I heard Cartman's drama triangle at first and it made sense. 😂
I found this confusing at first, to understand the "drama triangle", especially because someone who I recently realized may be narcissistic/I definitely feel hurt by in that way accused me of creating/perpetuating the "drama triangle" with her! It's a very confusing accusation because I don't see how the roles would even line up and it doesn't seem like one person could "create" the drama triangle themselves. Seems just like she wants to blame me for everything and not take responsibility for her own actions/words/contributions to the relationship. Still working that one out, it's very confusing!
Anyway, it makes sense after you explained it. Especially how it applies to my family dynamic. I think that I was usually seen as the "bad guy", my brother the Golden Child, my mom the Rescuer and my dad the Victim. This happened when I talked to my mom / I was most enmeshed with her, so I feel like this happened more often because I was so often scapegoated. "Your dad loves you, you need to see it from his perspective." But then, when I would talk to my dad, it could flip and I could be the Rescuer, my mom the Victim, and my dad the persecutor. "Your mom is too sheltered and she never shows up for us". With my brother, it would often be that both our parents were seen as the Victim to him and I was the Persecutor, my brother being the Rescuer. "Our parents have the best intentions, they just don't always get everything perfect." "You expect too much from them, you have too high of expectations." "You can't always get what you want, you can't expect them to give you everything".
It's also very clarifying for me to hear the relationship between the Rescuer and the Victim described as "cheap", makes perfect sense to me and feels so true. It's like you aren't really being vulnerable with the other person when you are bashing on the "persecutor". I think it was hard to be forced at times into the rescuer role, too. It never felt right saying mean things about others, like it was forced in a way, but it did almost help me to, in a way, vent to one parent about the other. That felt almost like getting support, but it also wasn't something I could rely on and wasn't really support still.
Thanks for this video! It's really helpful!
It is perfectly articulated that in a scapegoat and narcissistic enabling family everybody’s a loser. Thank you for bringing it up, that clarifies my perspective so much.
Oof, I know this all too well. I was the only kid of 3 who realized that my mom was toxic. When I called her out she would freak out and my siblings would immediately come after me.
My brother was the first son & grandson.. and was treated like a king! Never did dishes, laundry or chores. When he threw a fit over his needs not being met, the world would stop. I used to think he had it so much easier, not having been beaten. The emotional trauma he suffered as an enmeshed child is only now evident to me. We are broken adult children trying to piece together a healthy life after decades of poor coping skills. I don't think there really are winners or losers in a broken family. I think we all experience some kind of hell. The best i can hope for are videos like this, and the empathy i've developed over a lifetime ... going forward. Thank you so much!!😘❤😃